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Speaker 1: Pushkin, We're really sad at broken record to hear about

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Speaker 1: the passing of Justin Towns Earl. We recorded an interview

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Speaker 1: with them some time ago before the coronavirus put in

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Speaker 1: studio conversations on hold for us. Bruce Hadlin met up

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Speaker 1: with him at GSI Studios in Manhattan. Justin played some music,

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Speaker 1: they talked, as you'll hear, Justin was a gifted performer

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Speaker 1: and songwriter. He was the son of outlaw country musician

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Speaker 1: Steve Earl and got his middle name from his dad's mentor,

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Speaker 1: Towns van Zand. Both Steve and Towns struggled with addiction,

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Speaker 1: and so did Justin for most of his life. He

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Speaker 1: talks with Bruce about his personal troubles in this episode

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Speaker 1: pretty candidly, and their conversation about racial tensions in America

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Speaker 1: seems prescient now. Justin identified with people on the margins.

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Speaker 1: He wrote fantastic songs detailing Fringe Live with tremendous heart.

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Speaker 1: They were full of desperation, humor, and specificity, and the

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Speaker 1: best of the Southern songwriting tradition. We had this interview

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Speaker 1: scheduled to run next month in September when we heard

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Speaker 1: yesterday morning that Justin passed over the weekend. We weren't

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Speaker 1: sure we should run this at all. There's some really

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Speaker 1: deeply sad moments in this conversation with Bruce, but there's

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Speaker 1: also a lot of soul. So in the end, we

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Speaker 1: thought you might all enjoy spending some time with Justin

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Speaker 1: Town's Earl. His talent in life for better or worse

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Speaker 1: really shines through. We also hope you spent some time

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Speaker 1: with his music, whether you're returning to it or just

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Speaker 1: discovering it for the first time. This is broken record

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Speaker 1: liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Just

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Speaker 1: a quick note here. You can listen to all of

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Speaker 1: the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which

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Speaker 1: you can find a link to in the show notes

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Speaker 1: for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in

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Speaker 1: this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, enjoy

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Speaker 1: the episode. Here's Bruce had them with Justin Town's Earl.

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Speaker 1: He starts with the performance of a song from his

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Speaker 1: last release, The Saint of Lost, causes Justin Town's Earl

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Speaker 1: with Flint City, Flint City, Shake It Flint City, Shake

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Speaker 1: It Flints all right. Yeah, that was quite an opening.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. So much. You gotta start out fast, man. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you always store your concerts fast. I like to, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: try to, you know, but you know, you know you

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Speaker 1: have to. You gotta give him something to say, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: ain't gonna come out there and stare it. You know,

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Speaker 1: very few people can get that, you know, the Jeff Buckley,

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Speaker 1: you know, do that thing where you could stare at

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Speaker 1: your shoes and get away with it. He was great.

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Speaker 1: I saw it live. I couldn't do that. Yeah, I like,

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Speaker 1: I like the show to start. It's like I don't

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Speaker 1: want to see nobody come out on stage and town.

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Speaker 1: It's like when I walk out, I want my guitar

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Speaker 1: tooon for me and hand it to me and let's

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Speaker 1: let's go. Um. So, tell me about the rating of

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Speaker 1: that song, Flint City Shake It. Um. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it was the first song I wrote for

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Speaker 1: this record. Um, and it kind of it tied into

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Speaker 1: this thing where I was looking at the way, you

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Speaker 1: know how like Springsteen made New Jersey so cool. He

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Speaker 1: made you feel New Jersey or before who you know.

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Speaker 1: But but you know, you listen to him, you know,

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Speaker 1: working on the Highway and things like that, like you

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Speaker 1: you get this this mysticism about it and this thing

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Speaker 1: where he made it romantic, made Jersey romantic. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: bon Jovi sure as shit couldn't do that, you know.

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Speaker 1: So what I wanted to do is take that same

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Speaker 1: which he's a Woody Guthrie disciple, right, which I am too.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to take that same idea but apply it

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Speaker 1: to all of America. So I have. I wrote Flint City,

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Speaker 1: Shake it Um. Then I wrote Santa of Lost Causes.

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Speaker 1: Then I wrote Appalachian hypemare Um you know about Appalachia.

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Speaker 1: I wrote Ahistaminina you know about I based that on

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Speaker 1: a my my basis was a Puerto Rican kid from

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Speaker 1: the East village that from the Alphabets who got locked

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Speaker 1: up on mandatory minimums when he was young um and

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Speaker 1: was and got off a prison bus and met his

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Speaker 1: daughter for the first time. That's what I asked to mean,

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Speaker 1: he is about um. But but it's like that's that

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Speaker 1: the whole idea. And it's like I wrote over Alameda

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Speaker 1: about a kid from the Jordan Downs housing projects in

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Speaker 1: south central Los Angeles. It's a very old impulse in

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Speaker 1: American music that I think has been lost. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Springsteen wrote about lost, but he you know, he's from

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. He wrote about other places as well. But

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, what is it about those songs or those

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Speaker 1: kinds of songs that people like Winnie Guthrie used to write?

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Speaker 1: What do you think that? You say, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: everybody's Americans. But in a weird way, the beauty of

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Speaker 1: those songs is it makes different parts of the country

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Speaker 1: more mysterious, isn't it. Well? I mean I think too,

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's like I mean, I hope that

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Speaker 1: it makes it mysterious. I hope that it makes people

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Speaker 1: intrigued by different parts of the country. I'd hope it

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Speaker 1: makes somebody figure out that. Like, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: lived in LA from the nineteen forties until now over Alameda,

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Speaker 1: that was the dividing line. It was a dividing line

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Speaker 1: between black and white. Was this so Flint City was

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Speaker 1: the first song on this album on your new album?

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Speaker 1: Was it? Did it kind of set the tone for

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Speaker 1: you with this album? Was it characteristic of what you

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Speaker 1: wanted to do? Well? I always have a conceptual idea

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Speaker 1: about my records, even from the start, even from the

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Speaker 1: Good Life. I had this concept of it. Even though

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Speaker 1: it's light like my early records, they were like except

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Speaker 1: Midnight at the Movies was pretty conceptual. I based that

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Speaker 1: on Gregory Corso's book Mind Fields, Harlem River Blues, I

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Speaker 1: based on Moving Here things like that. But um, I know,

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Speaker 1: I um, I always know exactly where I want to

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Speaker 1: start and where I want to end. And that goes

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Speaker 1: with songs and records, because I mean, it's just like

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Speaker 1: I'm not you know, I'm not pissing in the wind.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like I'm here to you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna you know, I'm if you want to be an artist,

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Speaker 1: It's like I write about twelve thirteen songs a year.

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Speaker 1: They go on my records. I think um saying of

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Speaker 1: a lost causes the song. Yeah, it took me about

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Speaker 1: six months to write. What did it start? As? Did?

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Speaker 1: It started? As it was with a lick, with a

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Speaker 1: lyrical idea? What how did it? What was the genesis?

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Speaker 1: It started with this this idea of I was I

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Speaker 1: was looking at It's like, you know, you're looking at

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Speaker 1: people like Eric Gardner getting choked out by cops, the

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Speaker 1: Me Too movement, all these things of all these people

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Speaker 1: like you know, it's like, wait, people, anybody black people Mexicans.

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Speaker 1: What women, we've we've traded them like horribly over and

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Speaker 1: and so what I was trying to get at was

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Speaker 1: the fact that if you keep poking at the underclass,

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Speaker 1: what you call the underclass, you know, you keep poking

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Speaker 1: at us, eventually we're gonna strike back and you won't

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Speaker 1: like it. Okay, So was it? Was it stuff in

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Speaker 1: the news you're reading, or stuff you were seeing up close?

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Speaker 1: That stuff I've lived through, stuff I've lived through. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's like everybody, I'm Steve Son,

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Speaker 1: but my daddy was. I mean, my mom was number

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Speaker 1: three of eight wives, you know, and he was gone

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Speaker 1: before I was two. I grew up with my mother.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up. You know what, it makes

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Speaker 1: the best grilled cheese sandwich in the world, Government cheese

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Speaker 1: in the cardboard box, the best damned grilled cheese sandwich

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Speaker 1: you can get. And I know that because I grew up.

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Speaker 1: You know, I grew up with my mother, who worked

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Speaker 1: three jobs. I grew up with, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: gravitated towards a lot of dangerous people. And I've you know,

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Speaker 1: I've always been a street level kind of person. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to go to your martini bar and and

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Speaker 1: sit there and bullshit, I want to go to the darkest, dimmest,

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Speaker 1: most dangerous bar you got and let's get down with

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Speaker 1: the people, right because that's how most people live. So

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Speaker 1: that's where the song came from. That those memories, that

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Speaker 1: idea all of it. Yeah, yeah, well you said that's

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Speaker 1: where you want to start with the album. Where did

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Speaker 1: you want to go with the album? Well, what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go with was actually when I wrote sat

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Speaker 1: Saint of Lost Causes, the song which will play next yep, um,

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Speaker 1: I knew. I was just like, okay, that's it. Now

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Speaker 1: we got to add up to that. Is this something

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Speaker 1: you map out very consciously or very feeling? Yeah, very Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So when you're writing that song, you're I usually know

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Speaker 1: where I want to end before I know where I

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Speaker 1: want to begin, and you just keep working until you

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Speaker 1: finished the record, I mean until you feel like you

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Speaker 1: got to start, when you got to finish. It's a thesis.

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Speaker 1: You need a hard beginning, a medal at an end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and only the most pertinent information are you that way

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Speaker 1: As a lyrical writer, you say you've got it. Oh shit,

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Speaker 1: you ought to see my note. But I mean, if

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Speaker 1: somebody stole one of my notebooks, um, you may get

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Speaker 1: two songs, because it's just page after page of just

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Speaker 1: rewrites and rewrites and rewrites. And I always write number

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Speaker 1: two pencils, uh, and stint up pads. Always use the

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Speaker 1: same kind of pad always always. Yeah, I like to

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Speaker 1: you one of are you very precise in that way? Well?

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Speaker 1: You know, well, the only thing that I you know,

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Speaker 1: the pad, I like cineupads. It ain't necessarily the pad

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Speaker 1: any thing, but the number two pencil is the thing, okay,

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Speaker 1: because you can erase it when you get a bad idea,

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Speaker 1: but you got to remember when you had a decent

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Speaker 1: idea that maybe you didn't work out just right, and

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Speaker 1: leave that and not erase it so you can go

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Speaker 1: back and look at it and find another way to

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Speaker 1: toy it around and and you know, and get it right.

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Speaker 1: That I was reading this biography of Guy Clark, and

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Speaker 1: they reproduced some of his notebooks and it was sort

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Speaker 1: of done impeccably and hardly any revisions, which kind of

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Speaker 1: just stunned me. Maybe maybe they're just showing the good pages,

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Speaker 1: not the messy pages. Well, now he's the guy who

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Speaker 1: told my dad were always write number two pencil. Is

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Speaker 1: that right? And my dad told me I always write

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Speaker 1: number two pencil. Yeah. It's like he erased everything that

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Speaker 1: he didn't like. Oh okay that's why. Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: So you cover up your history. I'm gonna you can.

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Speaker 1: You can, you can, but you can only but but

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Speaker 1: you gotta always remember as like as like, we can't

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Speaker 1: all be as good as Guy Clark, So we have

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Speaker 1: to hang on to what we were, where we came from.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you have to know what to hang

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Speaker 1: on to. Um. You know, keep two eyes on the

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Speaker 1: ground and pick up what you find, but be careful

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Speaker 1: what you keep when don't we hear Saint of Lost

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Speaker 1: Causes and then keep talking? Well, let's do that. So

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Speaker 1: for people listening wondering how many guitars are playing on

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Speaker 1: that song, it's just you, just one guitar. But you've

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Speaker 1: got this very interesting way you you strum and pick

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Speaker 1: kind of at the same time. I call it slid

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Speaker 1: a hand. Okay. Um, I learned bit of it from

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Speaker 1: Malcolm hokeom okay, yeah, great, great Sun House m hmm.

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Speaker 1: Did this? I mean they but you gotta do this

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Speaker 1: figure out this thing is like, you know, you gotta

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Speaker 1: get your fingers bent like crap. I'm looking at some

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Speaker 1: very ben fingers, very band and this thumb looks like

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Speaker 1: a canoe paddle. I mean, but but you get this well.

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Speaker 1: The other thing I was gonna say is uh, and

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Speaker 1: this isn't very common anymore. You justif really swings, oh man,

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Speaker 1: I swing like a pendulum. You know, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: you got you got to swing. I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: don't know how to shake your ass, then you mean

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Speaker 1: that's something. I mean, did you get that from Western swing? What?

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Speaker 1: I got that from the Blues? I got that. I

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Speaker 1: got that from the Blues. I mean, I got that

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Speaker 1: from listening to um. But you know I got it

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Speaker 1: from Stacks. I got it from uh I did? I

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Speaker 1: got it from Hank Williams. But you know what where

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Speaker 1: Hank Williams think about country before Hank Williams, Right, it

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Speaker 1: was just like, oh yeah, I said we're going to

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Speaker 1: this and all on top of the beat, right, Not

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't good, but it was all on top

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Speaker 1: of the beat. Hank Williams goes down to the Louisiana

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Speaker 1: Haye Ride and somehow, you know, everybody's like, oh, Hank,

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Speaker 1: Williams did this. It's like all he did was introduced

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Speaker 1: the twelve bar blues, the country music, you know. Or

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Speaker 1: before I'd be like I'm going down to the river

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Speaker 1: and then I'm gona no, no, no no man. But Hank

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Speaker 1: Williams comes in and goes, I'm going down to the

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Speaker 1: rip gone that day. You know, it's like whoa drop back,

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Speaker 1: sit back, relax, right, relax, I mean, relax about it.

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Speaker 1: But some some of your earlier songs like I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: uh the good Life, the song that was very Western swing.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, no, I mean western swing was was

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Speaker 1: definitely a part of of what I loved, but but

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Speaker 1: it was it was weird how I got into like

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not. Um. It's more like when I

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Speaker 1: think about Western swing, I think about Moon Mullikin. You

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Speaker 1: know these these these these these stranger Emmett Miller. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think of these these different things. I'm Eman Miller

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Speaker 1: who wrote Lovesick. He wrote the Lovesick Blues. And you

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Speaker 1: know what, Hank Williams definitely saw Emmett Miller when he

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Speaker 1: was down in Lazianna Aza right, without question, where Edam

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Speaker 1: Miller did, he did Ragtime, I think he was. I

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Speaker 1: mean he was a black face performer. He was a

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Speaker 1: white guy who painted his face black and performed in

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Speaker 1: black face. Old minstrel show kind of thing. Yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: and people don't really know how because it's so politically fraught,

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Speaker 1: how influential a lot of minstrel show music will was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, here's the deal. It's like people need to

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Speaker 1: understand this about what the minstrel show did. The minstrel

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Speaker 1: show for the first time. Um, before it's like you

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Speaker 1: lived in a holler somewhere, or you lived in a

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Speaker 1: bio somewhere, you lived on a rant somewhere, or even

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Speaker 1: if you lived in a city, you knew a version

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Speaker 1: of a song because your uncle knew how to play

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Speaker 1: it and he played it on Saturday night when you

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Speaker 1: all gathered together, you know, for your your gathering. So

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Speaker 1: everybody knew these different versions, Like nobody's versions were the same. Right.

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Speaker 1: This was before records were made, you know, So it's

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Speaker 1: like nobody knew the same versions for the first time.

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Speaker 1: The minstrel Show travels at travels and it introduces America

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Speaker 1: to a uniformed song like the the that's how you

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Speaker 1: play that song, you know that idea. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was the very first widespread given to all of America

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Speaker 1: at the time, music that we had before radio, before radio,

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Speaker 1: before records could be made. And I mean, and of

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Speaker 1: course there's there's there's always going to be this uh,

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Speaker 1: this this stigma about it because you know, even black

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Speaker 1: people had to paint their face black to be in

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Speaker 1: a menstrel show, you know, right, Hell yeah, that's fucked up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean what minstrel, what the minstrel show did for

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Speaker 1: American music. We would not have American music the way

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Speaker 1: that we have it if it was not for the

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Speaker 1: menstrul Show. We wouldn't. We'll be back with more from

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Speaker 1: Justin Town Zero after the break. We're back with more

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Speaker 1: of Bruce's conversation with Justin Town zero. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: the first song you wrote, m I do um um

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Speaker 1: halfway to Jackson, So the first song you ever wrote

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Speaker 1: in life ended up on Finished Yeah, Well, a lot

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Speaker 1: of the songs on the Good Life, Yeah, a couple

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Speaker 1: of them. Um. I wrote um halfway to Accent when

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Speaker 1: I was fourteen. I ain't glad I'm leaving when I

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Speaker 1: was fifteen. Uh, turn out my lights when I was fifteen. Uh,

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Speaker 1: Rogers Park. What were you what were you listening to

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Speaker 1: back then that that helped you write those songs? Um,

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Speaker 1: those songs we were back then, like, I mean, those

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Speaker 1: were the few, like there's I can't remember all the

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Speaker 1: songs on that record, but those were the few that

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Speaker 1: were the old songs that I'd had since I was

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Speaker 1: a kid when you know, because I was twenty five

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Speaker 1: when when when New Life came out? So those are

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Speaker 1: the ones that lasted, all right. I wrote a ton

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Speaker 1: of shit back then, like but when I was a teenager, tons,

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Speaker 1: tons and a lot of It's embarrassing as hell, but

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Speaker 1: you got to go through that. Yeah, you know, you

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Speaker 1: got to write bad songs, try them out. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and I mean it's not like you know, I used

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Speaker 1: to write a song and you know, I'd like run

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Speaker 1: down to Dad's studio when he'd be working, like run

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Speaker 1: down and be like, hey, look at this. He'd be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: go back to the drawing boards. Soun as hard as

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Speaker 1: hell on me about it? Yeah, because you how old

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Speaker 1: were you when you started playing with his band? I

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Speaker 1: was fifteen? Wow, what did you see the music business

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Speaker 1: when you were fifteen? On the road? I knew it

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Speaker 1: was better than selling to up and going to prison,

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Speaker 1: which was which was what I was gonna do. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna let's follow my you know, mom's side of

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Speaker 1: the family down down the rabbit hole. Right, I'd be dad,

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Speaker 1: or I'd be in prison. Period. You know what, if

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Speaker 1: this ever ends, I can't make no money, I'll probably

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Speaker 1: end up in prison because I only know two ways

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Speaker 1: to make money. The only one's legal. All right, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna help you with this way because you know, of

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Speaker 1: course you get three square meals. I mean, as long

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Speaker 1: as you you know how to get you you know,

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Speaker 1: get your zuzus and lham wams. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you'll be fine. So I'm kind of wondering this because

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Speaker 1: you know, particularly with music, a lot of music is

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Speaker 1: pop music and rock music is born in rebellion. When

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Speaker 1: you have a father who's kind of such a rebel himself,

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Speaker 1: how do you rebel against that? How did you how

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Speaker 1: did you separate yourself from your father's influence? You can't,

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Speaker 1: and you don't because if you try to, if I

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Speaker 1: said Steve Earl had no influence on my songwriting and

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Speaker 1: that he wasn't one of my heroes as a songwriter,

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Speaker 1: that would be the biggest I mean, the biggest lie

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Speaker 1: I could tell you know, was that the case when

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Speaker 1: you were fourteen? Well, we kind of just started getting

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Speaker 1: to know each other when I was fourteen. He knew

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Speaker 1: his music though, of course, you know, but it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting thing. I mean you have to realize that, like

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Speaker 1: any of those sons and daughters of they're like, I

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Speaker 1: don't wanting don't talk about my dad. I want nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with my dad or my mom. It's like

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Speaker 1: the fuck you think you are. It's like you, it's

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Speaker 1: like you. You you have to find your own way

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Speaker 1: incause nobody can tell me that I rode my daddy's

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Speaker 1: coattails into this fucking business because my dad can't play

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Speaker 1: like me. Um, I can't write like him, and he

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Speaker 1: can't write like me. We have a different I mean

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Speaker 1: we've we've we have distinct things that we do differently. Um.

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Speaker 1: But and you know, and we've done since I mean

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Speaker 1: shit like since I started making records. I think we've

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Speaker 1: done five shows together. What's that like? Period together? Five

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Speaker 1: shows though? Yeah, but what's it like when you play together?

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's something else you want to see. Two

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Speaker 1: Earl's butt heads holy shit. I mean it is, it's

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Speaker 1: something else, especially when we start playing together and I

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Speaker 1: was doing songs together, and uh uh. I always liked

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Speaker 1: to take one of his songs that he likes to do,

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Speaker 1: and I like play one of his songs that I

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Speaker 1: know he's gonna play it just so he can't do it,

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Speaker 1: and things like it. But no, it's it's definitely it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a head button thing. But I remember, I

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Speaker 1: remember the first time, you know, my dad telling me

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Speaker 1: go back to the drawn Bird. I mean I used

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Speaker 1: to play from noon until seven pm at the spring

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Speaker 1: Water in Nashville every Thursday, um noon until seven pm,

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Speaker 1: just playing and playing and playing and playing up covers

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Speaker 1: and songs that I wrote. But you know, it's like

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Speaker 1: he you know, I had to get that get, get

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Speaker 1: that test in get. You had to build all that up,

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Speaker 1: hide to build all that up, um and um. I

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Speaker 1: wrote a lot of songs and he said, go back

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Speaker 1: to the drawing Bird. But I remember the first time

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Speaker 1: when I wrote Maria. I can't remember what record it's on.

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Speaker 1: I think it's on Midnight or something. I can't but

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Speaker 1: when I wrote Maria, it was he came and saw

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Speaker 1: me at um radio cafe in Nashville, UM, and we

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Speaker 1: I was with my band the Swindlers at the time,

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Speaker 1: and we played Maria last. And when I came off stage,

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Speaker 1: my dad goes, well, hey, what was that Elvis Carstello

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Speaker 1: song you played? I said, we'd played an Elvis Carstello

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Speaker 1: So he's the last song. I said, that's Maria. I

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Speaker 1: was like, that's mine mine. He goes, really, I went, hell, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was the first. Like I was like, yelp, doup

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Speaker 1: and and you know, and and I still can make

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Speaker 1: him cry with Mama's Eyes. Can you play the first

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Speaker 1: two bars of Mama's Eyes? Because that's pritting into this conversation. Oh,

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Speaker 1: let's say, uh, I have to do a little a

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Speaker 1: little bit of tune in for a second. But when

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Speaker 1: I wrote this song, I mean like it, it was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like you gotta be ballsy, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I love the fact that when I came up,

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Speaker 1: But that first line that you know, do you know

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Speaker 1: that like right there when I did that, I was

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Speaker 1: just like when I came up, I was just like, Hell,

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Speaker 1: I'm onto something. Yeah, I'm onto something. What did he

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Speaker 1: say when you he first heard that? He actually the

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Speaker 1: first time he saw it was at a show. Um

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Speaker 1: he came and saw him. Um, I can't remember where

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Speaker 1: we were, Oh, the Rhyman. We're at the Rhyman Auditorium

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Speaker 1: opening for Old Crow, I think. And Dad shows up,

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Speaker 1: you know, like proud papa on the sides, and and

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Speaker 1: I do do Mama's eyes and and you know, and

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Speaker 1: you can see I mean I you know, I kind

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Speaker 1: of peek over and like you see him shrink a

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Speaker 1: little on the and after after the show, I was

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Speaker 1: just like, Okay, he was like, hey, great show. He

403
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Speaker 1: was like Mama's Eyes is a really fucking good son.

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Speaker 1: There was this resignation and that he was just like

405
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Speaker 1: so I think that that's it. I found this thing

406
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: and speaking the truth, telling it the way that it is.

407
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Speaker 1: And he respects that absolutely because he created me, even

408
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Speaker 1: though he wasn't there for that. For a good point.

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Speaker 1: That creates a lot of a boy who I'm a

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Speaker 1: boy that doesn't grow up with a father. It grows

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Speaker 1: up alone. Uh you know a mother that works three jobs,

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Speaker 1: who's who's molested, beaten and abandoned. You know after dad left?

413
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Speaker 1: You know what, you think I ain't gonna shape You're

414
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Speaker 1: I was pissed at dad for a long It took

415
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Speaker 1: us a long time to have a relationship. Long time.

416
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Speaker 1: You read a lot about mothers. You wrote an album

417
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Speaker 1: single mothers as You've got another one on this album,

418
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Speaker 1: the Nina song. Oh ah, he has to mean Nina.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah, well that was like that's dad getting off,

420
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Speaker 1: you know, Amias Morelda used a site for sore eyes.

421
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Speaker 1: I'm just off the bus from Clinton. They put me

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Speaker 1: out on the Bowery. I'm on my way home to

423
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: see mommy. Now, fancy seeing you along the way, don't know,

424
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: don't go. Ain't you got a minute for your old man?

425
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: Let me buy you something to eat, just a cup

426
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: of coffee from Debodegga. I was hoping we might get

427
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: a chance to speak, you know. Um, and that was

428
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: someone you knew. That's based on, it's based on. It's

429
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: a composite of a few people that I knew. I

430
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: lived in the alphabets for years, and um, I mean

431
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: people who don't don't nobody needs to be mistaken by anything.

432
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: It's like alphabets are still strongly Porto Rican, right, you know,

433
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: and the influence there is something else, uh yeah yeah, um,

434
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: And but that whole idea of like like like you know,

435
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: the Puerto Rican people came here in the nineteen fifties,

436
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: started filling into this town um as soon as they could,

437
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: looking for better life. They speak great English. They speak

438
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: Spanish between each other. But when you're talking to them,

439
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: the only time that they if you're if you're talking

440
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: just like you know, sitting at the bar talking, you know,

441
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: with the minutes, like the bunch of non Spanish because

442
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: they're talking perfect English. But you know they you know,

443
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: hit their thumb, oh ching. You know. So it's like

444
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: emotional things that makes this right. You know, this this

445
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: thing come up so and I got this ideally Adista

446
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: me Ninya, my only child, Nina. You know now you

447
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: have no fear of you're taking the voice of a

448
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: Puerto Rican father. Uh, you take the voice of a

449
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: African American kid in Alameda. Uh. You know there's a

450
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: lot of controversy about that. Now we're all Americans, but

451
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: we're all Americans. I mean that's the thing is like

452
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: everybody needs to get the get the fuck over all that,

453
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: like we're Americans. And you know what it's like, uh,

454
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: you know, all the all the Puerto Rican kids that

455
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: I knew when I lived in the alphabets weren't born

456
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: in Puerto Rico. They were born in America. They may

457
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: speak Spanish, their mom may cook some spicy food. I

458
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: lived in the five twenty eight. Oh man, you should

459
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 1: have smelled that building in the middle of the day.

460
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: Oh shit, all the doors opening, the cooking going. It

461
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: was good. But the deal is is they're Americans, right.

462
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: But a writer could say to you, yeah, but you're

463
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: a way to American. You've got a certain experience. But

464
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: I grew up as a black kid in that neighborhood.

465
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: I see it a different way. What does it like

466
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: to take on that voice? Well, don't don't make sure

467
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: that you think about it before you say it. I

468
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: don't think I say anything that would offend anybody in

469
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: this song. I mean I may have found corporate America,

470
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: but I ain't gonna found up Puerto rican In with

471
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: I es I meaning you, I'm not gonna failed any

472
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: black man with over Alameda, We'll love more of justin

473
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: Town zero. After the break, we're back with justin Town zero.

474
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: Why don't we hear uh your next song? First? No?

475
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: What do you connouct? No? I got it. We'll do

476
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: it Frightened by the Sound? Okay, I mentioned before some

477
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: of your songs could they could have been Merle Haggard songs,

478
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: George Jones songs. That could be a Paul Westerberg song.

479
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, I mean like when when I

480
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: recorded Ken Hartley wait on on Midnight at the movies.

481
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: It's on midnight. That's right, you did. Yeah, and we

482
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: should say Paul Westerbird writer for the replacement replacements. All

483
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: you people who don't know look it up. You got

484
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: head on your phone. So the song you just played,

485
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: Frightened by the Sound, where you know, you talked about

486
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: kind of the arc of this album, where he started,

487
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: where he ended up. Where's that along that line? Um,

488
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: it's it's um, let's just telling telling everybody that you know, uh,

489
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: just don't don't don't be afraid when storm starts, and

490
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: it will. But it's kind of a scary. It's funny

491
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: because you're saying, gonna friend, it's kind of a scary song.

492
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: It is, yeah, but I mean but it's like, but what, really,

493
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: what can we be scared of these days? I mean,

494
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: if you're if you're really in this day, and I

495
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: mean if you're my age at least right. I grew

496
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: up through the crack cocaine epidemic, the in the introduction

497
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: of of of assault rifles to the streets, carjackings. Um,

498
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: two bushes, Reagan, two bushes. Uh and and and now

499
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: now and now Trump. What are you going to be

500
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: afraid of? I mean you we better be we better

501
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: get this is a we better get tough. We better

502
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: get tough. Um, and realize that there's uh, you know,

503
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: what's what's there to be scared of? I mean, the

504
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: worst thing can happen is you die. Well, there's that,

505
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's over. What you got to worry about?

506
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: Don don't be afright of something? Are you? What's your

507
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: life as a musician? Now? Is it? Because I looked

508
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: at your schedule? You too are a lot? I tore

509
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: a lot. I'm you know, I'm I'm a good dad.

510
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm a terrible husband. Um, but I'm really good at

511
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: what I do for a living. I know how to

512
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: live on the road. Yeah. Um, I know how to

513
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: do the shows. I know how to be tits and teeth. Uh,

514
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, the show goes on, get it done, um

515
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: go um. But what I can't I'm bad at get

516
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: me off the road for a week, two weeks. I

517
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: want to beat my head against the porcelain just but

518
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: I mean, like it drives me. I don't know how

519
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: it works. I mean, I I don't know how it works.

520
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: I've been doing this since I was fourteen years old,

521
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: I mean toring since I mean touring Torran since I

522
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: was fifteen. I mean, like, what what else do I know? Um?

523
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: You know, my wife was like, you're messy. I was like,

524
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm used to hotel rooms. I'm gone the

525
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: next day, I probably like, you know, it's like I'm

526
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: you know, I'm bad at it. My dad was never

527
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: good at it, you know. Yeah, but but we committed

528
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: to this. We you know, this is the thing. It's

529
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: like anybody who wants to be around me, be with me,

530
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: is understand that this is what I do. That's what

531
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. I do not want to die at home.

532
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: I want to die in a tour bus years from now.

533
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 1: But I do not die sitting up my damn couch.

534
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: You know, you're not in Nashville anymore. You grew up

535
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: in East Nashville. But I didn't grow up in East Nashville. Oh,

536
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: I thought you did. No, no, no, no, no no.

537
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: I grew up in South Nashville. The only time we

538
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: went to East Nashville is when our cousins got out

539
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 1: of prison and our aunt was having a cookout. Okay, Um,

540
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: this is one of the things that obsessed people in

541
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: country music. What's your relationship to Nashville. What's Nashville doing?

542
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: What's the Nashville sound? Now? How do you look at

543
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: what's coming out of Nashville? Now? Well, um, there's a

544
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: lot of cool stuff coming out in Nashville right now. Um,

545
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: but I got I hate the bro country shit. H

546
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: I hate it. I mean, but most of the stuff

547
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: coming off of music row is is I mean, I would,

548
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: I mean it's horrible, I mean horrible. Um, but there's

549
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of cool stuff that goes on in Nashville.

550
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: You mentioned bluegrass, and there's a there's a terrific song

551
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: on your album, which is there's many terrific songs. The

552
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: one that really stood up for me was Appalachian Nightmare.

553
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, which is And you say you don't want

554
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: to sing it because it has too many words. I

555
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: can't remember the fucker I can't. Yeah, it's got a

556
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: lot of words. It's kind a lot of fucking words,

557
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: but it's it's a kind of it's an outlast song.

558
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: It's not quite a murder ballad, no, but it's an

559
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: outlast song which has got a that's something else, that's

560
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: got a real pedigree in in country here and much

561
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: older music like well you know that. That was one

562
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 1: of the few songs that I did take kind of

563
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: like when I was writing that, when I when I

564
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: got to the end, I was like, I'm gonna make

565
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: this guy kill a cop and I'm gonna say it

566
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: on the song I suggested. Was there a particular story

567
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: you were thinking of with the new and Appalachian Nightmare?

568
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: Was there? It? Was it a news event or something

569
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: or was it just from your imagination? No, No, it's

570
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: from friends from friends I lived. I lived in Johnson City,

571
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: Tennessee for a while. Um, around Pokey, Tennessee. Um, and

572
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: what goes on up in those hollers, I mean, it's

573
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: it's something else. I mean, it's a it's a world

574
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: onto itself that Um, it's a I mean, I mean,

575
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: I know I placed Butler Holler like in the nineties

576
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: and Butler Haller around a Pokey, Tennessee. They the police

577
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: wouldn't go down Butler Holler. They wouldn't go down the road.

578
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: There was one road in one road out and it

579
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: was just like it was just trailers like tilted on Neil,

580
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: but it was you know, math cooking pill snorton like.

581
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember there was this great robbery and

582
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: we were living in I was living in uh Johnson City.

583
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: This was a I mean, I remember it because it's amazing.

584
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: These two guys evidently pull up in front of a

585
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: drug store in downtown Johnson City on a dirt bike.

586
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: One of them has a fifty gallon and garbage can

587
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: and they both have some kind of assault rifles strapped

588
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 1: over their shoulders. They go in, you know, motorcycle elements

589
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: on fifty gallon garbage can, you know, stick it up

590
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: like fill it and just rake everything, all the pills,

591
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: everything into that fifty gallon guardge can, run out, get

592
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: back on the bike, take it, and they put a

593
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: strap around themselves. Right and right as they were pulling out,

594
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: the cops got on them. So they took off of

595
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: eighty seven, took up Unicoi Highway and at that point

596
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: Unicoi Highway wasn't finished. It ended, and it was just

597
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: like a bridge that just stopped. Cops are following them, Boom,

598
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: dirt Mike, just right off that bridge up the hills. Gone, yeah, gone.

599
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: They couldn't follow them. They couldn't do nothing. As smart

600
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: as hell. That's some hillbilly ingenuity if you but you know,

601
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: you waited about four months and then the town was

602
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: flo with pills. Right, Are those stories still you still

603
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: want to tell those kind of stories? Yeah, because they're

604
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: real stories. I mean, I mean, if we really think

605
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: that most people, uh, I mean, most most people in

606
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: America ain't got a pot to piss in, And who

607
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: are we to tell them? You know, I do what

608
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: I do to support my daughter. I don't care what happens.

609
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do what I got to do. And I

610
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: think they think the same way. You're gonna do what

611
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: you've got to do. Our hearts go out to the

612
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: friends and family of Justin Towns Earth. You can hear

613
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: is the last album The Saint of Lost Causes by

614
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: checking out our playlist at Broken record podcast dot com,

615
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at

616
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast, where you can

617
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: find extended cuts of past episodes and also new ones.

618
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel,

619
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler and his executive produced by Miolbell.

620
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: Thanks to our CEO Jacob Weissberg and our President Malcolm Gladwell.

621
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. Follow us

622
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: at Pushkin Pods and the Broken Record Pod on social media,

623
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,959
Speaker 1: and if you like Broken Record, please remember to share, rate,

624
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: and review our show on your podcast at I'm justin Richmond.

625
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: Bass