1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Alec. We all love true crime podcasts, but 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: perhaps you're looking for something a little different, less murder, 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: more intrigue. I invite you to check out a new 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: podcast I just released called Art Fraud. It's the true 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: story of one of New York City's oldest and most 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: trusted galleries dealing in world class art, and how its 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: doors would close forever in the wake of an unprecedented scandal. 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: The art market is ripe for cons because it's inherently subjective. 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: I just couldn't even look at it because it was 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: so garish and so not by rothco. 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: We're talking about eighty million dollars in fake paintings, or 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: more precisely, forgeries. All episodes of Art Fraud are available 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: right now. Okay, here's our show. This is Alec Baldwin, 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: My guest today comes from the most legendary of American families. 16 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: Rory Kennedy is the youngest daughter of Senator Robert F. 17 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: Kennedy and the niece of President John F. Kennedy. But 18 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: as she will tell us during our conversation, she's also 19 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: one of the great Kennedy Women. Instead of following her 20 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: forbearers into law or politics, Kennedy has made a name 21 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: for herself as a documentary filmmaker. Her films feature a 22 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: wide range of subjects, from surfing legend Laird Hamilton to 23 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: challenging issues like poverty, addiction, and mental illness. In her 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: current film, She's tackling corporate corruption. That film, Downfall, the 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: case against Boeing, investigates the circumstances that led to two 26 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: tragic passenger jet crashes in twenty eighteen and nineteen. Rory 27 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Kennedy and I talk about her remarkable upbringing and he 28 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: how the people she's encountered in her life have influenced 29 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: her trajectory. 30 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 3: I think it's hard to detach anybody from how they 31 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 3: grew up, right, I mean, that's such an influence and 32 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 3: impact on who you become. And certainly that was the 33 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 3: case with me. I grew up, you know, the youngest 34 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: of eleven and in obviously a very political family, and 35 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 3: I was impacted by that. I mean I was also surrounded, 36 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: my mother made a point of this by really extraordinary 37 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 3: role models, you know, when we had such a the 38 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: honor of meeting, whether it was you know, presidents or 39 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 3: congressman and senators, or people like Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu, 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: you know who were in our homes, and also some 41 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 3: of the great athletes and you know NASA astronauts. I mean, so, 42 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 3: I think it was a life where we were surrounded 43 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 3: by people who created a sense of aspiration and to 44 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 3: try to make the world a bit of a better place. 45 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: Now, what would you say though that, as you're making 46 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: a film, do you have protocols, rules, tenets, whatever word 47 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: you want to use, where you sit there and say 48 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: that's not something I'm going to do. That's influenced by 49 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: the way your family's been treated. If you're making a 50 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: film and let's say some aspect of a story, there's 51 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: a very kind of scandalizing, tawdry. When to shy away 52 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: from that is the way you guys have been attacked 53 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: from time to time. 54 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 3: I think I have certain sensitivities. For example, with Downfall, 55 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: the case against Going, there's three hundred and forty six 56 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 3: people who died, and there are the family members who 57 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: are related to those people, some of whom we talked 58 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: to in our film, And I was definitely thinking, well, 59 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: how is it going to be for these folks to 60 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 3: watch this film, right, And I've had to see scenes 61 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: over and over again that play themselves out on the 62 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 3: news that are very upsetting to watch about my family 63 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: dying right and being killed, and I didn't want to 64 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: subject them to that. But I also wanted to make 65 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 3: a film that was impactful. We do cgi recreations of 66 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 3: what it was like to be in the cockpit so 67 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: that we could really help people understand the perspective of 68 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 3: the pilots in these planes and what they were struggling 69 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,119 Speaker 3: with with the MCS system. And you know, but I thought, 70 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 3: how are these folks going to watch this film? So 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 3: when I sent the film to them before it's coming out, 72 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: I highlighted all the sections that I thought would be 73 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: hard for them to watch, so that they could be 74 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: aware of that and go into it and decide to 75 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 3: watch those sections or not. So, you know, maybe I 76 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 3: have some sensitivity and moments like that. I think the 77 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: types of films I choose generally tend to be political 78 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: in nature and tend to, you know, I hope when 79 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 3: people watch these films, whether it's this or a film 80 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: about Vietnam the final days of the war, film about 81 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: Abu grabe that we learned from them, and we learn 82 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 3: from watching these stories and hopefully make better choices moving forward. Right, So, 83 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: I think the choices of the films I make are 84 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 3: certainly impacted by the family I grew up in. 85 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you mentioned that. And this is only tangential, 86 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: but remember being invited years ago Clinton was in the 87 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: White House. I was invited to the White House to 88 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: a screening of the movie The Paper by Ronnie Howard, 89 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: and I'm sitting in a seat in the theater and 90 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: the woman to my right, who's sitting next to me, 91 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: A gun goes off in the middle of the film, 92 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: and that woman grabbed my arm and gasped this huge 93 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: gasp when the gun went off. 94 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: It was your mom, right, So you know there's me. 95 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: To this day's she's not prepared for that. 96 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, those sounds. Yeah, so there's trauma related to that 97 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: for sure. 98 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: Now to get to the film. So I watched this film, obviously, 99 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: and I was mesmerized. Congratulations by the way, I mean, 100 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: you came to the Hampton's Film Festival. Every year a 101 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: film of yours comes and we all look at together 102 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: and we're like, can we really invite her again? Do 103 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: we bringing rored out to Eastampton again? I mean, isn't 104 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: enough enough? I mean, how much more can we shine 105 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: her up here? But we loved your film about your mom. 106 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: We're going to get to that later. I loved Last 107 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: Days of Vietnam. That was a great I'm not just 108 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: saying this, that's a great movie. Great movie really just 109 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: you what film can do and the spirit of what's 110 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: happening and understanding that those moments that you did a 111 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: great job. Now, this film made me angry. This film. 112 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: I was pissed off because only one guy I think 113 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: is criminally charged, correct, that's correct, and that we identify 114 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: that person, Mark Forkner, And he was in charge of 115 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: what is bowing. 116 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 3: He was a pilot, a test pilot, and he was 117 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 3: you know, he really wasn't responsible for what end and 118 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 3: a lot of people feel like he was scapegoaded because 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: he was really in charge of making sure, you know, 120 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: he was testing the plane. And then he played a 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: role in keeping the MCS system away from the regulators 122 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 3: and that's documented and there's proof of that, and so 123 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: they followed up with that. But you know, Congressman Defasio, 124 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: for example, led the Congressional investigation into what happened the 125 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: biggest investigation the Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history. And he 126 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: concluded that this was really top down right, that the 127 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: top group in management at Boeing was very aware of 128 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: the MCS system, that there was a concerted effort to 129 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: keep the system away from the regulators, to hide the system, 130 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 3: and to cut corners along the way, and that there 131 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 3: was you know, it was a culture of concealment, is 132 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 3: what he calls it. So I think that there are 133 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: a lot of people who feel like the folks who 134 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: are most responsible have yet to be held accountable. And 135 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: there's been no criminal charges, and you know, Lahllenberg walked 136 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 3: away with. 137 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: The head of Boeing, the head of Boeing sixty something. 138 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 2: That sixty two million dollars. 139 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 3: So you know, I think after you've kind of watched 140 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: the film and really understand all the decisions that the 141 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 3: management at Boeing made along the way to prioritize profit 142 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 3: over safety, that you know, when you understand the depths 143 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 3: of those choices that I think many people like you 144 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: are outraged. 145 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: Well for people, I don't want to I want them 146 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: to see the film obviously, but I want to give 147 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: them just a taste of so Boeing wants to create 148 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: I'll let you fill in the blank. So they want 149 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: to create a fleet. They're losing market share, they're getting 150 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: their hat handed to them by Airbus. Things are not 151 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: looking good for Boeing, who have been dominant around the 152 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: world for decades and then and were the pride of 153 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: not just Seattle, but the United States as industry. And 154 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: then the things start to go down from so they 155 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: want to play ketchup and they want to produce a 156 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: lower cost, more fuel efficient I think was the goal of. 157 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: The seven seven seven thirty seven MAX. 158 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: Got to get the word max in there. The seven 159 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: thirty seven fuel efficiency was the goal. And then a 160 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: part of this was the development of this system which 161 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: was to help to so they don't make too steep 162 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: a climb. A system takes over the plane and lowers 163 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: the nose of the plane and forces the plane down, 164 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: but doesn't shut off. It forces the nose of the 165 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: plane down straight into the ground. 166 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: Correct, Well, yeah, that's correct. 167 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 3: There was there were concern at a certain angle that 168 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: the plane would stall, and so they instead of changing 169 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 3: the kind of structure of the plane and moving the 170 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 3: engines and whatnot. They decided to fix it with a 171 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: computer system, again in an effort to save money, it seems, 172 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: and that computer system was connected to one sensor on 173 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 3: the side of the airplane, like a weather van. And 174 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 3: so if that sensor was damage, which happens off and 175 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: gets hit by bird, something happens to it, it would 176 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 3: send and this is what happened erroneous the information to 177 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 3: the computer system. So it would tell the computer system 178 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: that the plane was at a certain angle and you 179 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: needed to push the nose down, But it wasn't at 180 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: that angle. It was more at a flat angle, and 181 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 3: not only would it push the nose of the plane down, 182 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 3: but it would do it over and over and over again. 183 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: Probably the most powerwing details you covered the film is 184 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: and the pilots were not told about the installation of 185 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: the system. 186 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: That's correct. 187 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 3: It's prior to the Line air crash, which was the 188 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 3: first crash. The pilots were completely unaware that the system 189 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 3: was even on the airplane, which was also kind of 190 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: flew in the face of what had been the normal 191 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 3: relationship between Boeing and pilots, which was to really educate 192 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: and form pilots about everything training, you know, make them 193 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: fully equipped to handle any situation that would happen. But 194 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 3: in this case they in an effort to really keep 195 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 3: this from regulators. Really, what was motivating them is that 196 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: if they have a totally new system on the airplane, 197 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 3: then they have to train pilots. And if they have 198 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: to train pilots, it costs them a million dollars per 199 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 3: an aircraft, you know, on average to train these pilots. 200 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: So they wanted to again it seems save the money. 201 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 3: And so instead of making people aware that this system 202 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,239 Speaker 3: was on the airplane, they made a concerted effort to. 203 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: We're not even going to tell you about this machine 204 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: we've installed, which, if it behaves badly, is going to 205 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: crash the plane. Yes, and there's a manual override that 206 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: they might have been able to activate. They could have 207 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: gotten out of it, I guess if they'd had the training. 208 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: If they had had the training. Except what we also 209 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: discover and show case in the course of this film 210 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: is a document that came out in twenty sixteen. It's 211 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 3: called a coordination sheet that shows that if something went 212 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 3: wrong with the system, that the pilots would need to 213 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: fix it within ten seconds. Otherwise the power of the 214 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 3: MCS system would overtake them if they didn't do it 215 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: in ten seconds and the results would be catastrophic. And 216 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 3: catastrophic in airplane language means the plane will crash and 217 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 3: everybody will die. So you know, even if the pilots right. 218 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 3: So in the second instance, in the Ethiopian airplane crash, 219 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 3: the pilots were aware of the system, they did everything right, 220 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 3: they did what they were told to do, and the 221 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: plane still crashed. So you know if you don't and 222 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: what you have to also remember, and this is why 223 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: we also created the kind of the CGI recreation of 224 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: what happens in that cockpit is there's this cacophony of 225 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 3: sounds and error alerts that are all contradict each other 226 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 3: that the pilots are trying to understand and navigate and 227 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: figure out. Okay, this is saying where you know, the 228 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 3: altitude is in disagreement, the airspeed is in disagreement, that 229 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: all systems alert is on, the stick shaker is going, 230 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: there's all of these alerts coming at them, and then 231 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: with that they have to navigate. Okay, Well, what this 232 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: all means is that I need to do these steps 233 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 3: within ten seconds and otherwise this plane is going to crash. 234 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to go on a plane 235 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 3: that is putting pilots in that position. I don't want 236 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 3: to put my children. 237 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: Face people are whose job who give anything to save 238 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: the lives of their passengers. Think of something more unimaginable 239 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: than to be on in the cockpit of a plane 240 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: and the plane is behaving and not in some anomalous way. 241 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: You see yourself hurtling towards the ground. It's like nine 242 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: to eleven. Yeah, you're the plane's going into the ground 243 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: and you're sitting there thinking what can and you don't 244 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: know what to do? 245 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, it's completely funny. Maybe they're eating a turkey sandwich. 246 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 3: You know, it does not like you're not there sitting 247 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 3: there every on total alert for the entire plane ride. 248 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 1: Well, before we get into the macro of your filmmaking, 249 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: one more thing, I think you make it clear in 250 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: the film the idea that this is a different Boeing. 251 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: At this point, I thought it was fascinating how you 252 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: talk about the move to Chicago. They moved the headquarters 253 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: to Chicago for the purposes of distancing themselves from the influence, 254 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: and I thought it was well that the influence was good. 255 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: It was a nice battery. It was a nice exchange 256 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: between Union's management, design and technology and the corporate And 257 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: these guys are like, no, no, no, we don't want 258 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: to be too close to those guys in Seattle. So 259 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: we're going to move to Chicago so we can make 260 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: our decisions in this bubble in Chicago. And it seems 261 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: like what was a great company, that rare I mean, 262 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: multi billion dollar enterprise that made big, expensive things that 263 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: they were very proud of, that defined a city, and 264 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: everything moves to Chicago, And it seems like that's part 265 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: of the problem was once the that merger was made 266 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: and they moved Chicago, that cost cutting thing becomes primary. 267 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 3: I think that's right, you know, I think, like you, 268 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: I love Boeing and what Boeing stood for in this country, 269 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 3: and you know the history of Boeing, and we really 270 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 3: celebrate that in the film because it's been an extraordinary 271 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: company for decades. You know, it helped us get out 272 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 3: of World War two, It helped build the fighter jets 273 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 3: to win that war. It helped get us to the 274 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: moon with my uncle Jack. I mean, they helped build 275 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: those engines in the rocket ships, they helped people be 276 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: able to travel all over the world for the first time, 277 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: you know, with the seven forty seven and extraordinary accomplishment. 278 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: So we wanted to celebrate that. And during those very 279 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: early years and for many decades, Boeing did one thing, 280 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 3: which was to say, we're going to prioritize excellence and 281 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 3: safety and then the profits will follow. We're going to 282 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: make the best planes possible, we're going to innovate, we're 283 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 3: going to do new things, and we're going to think 284 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: to the future. And then it changed hands, taken over really. 285 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: I mean, one person we interviewed said somehow McDonald douglas 286 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: bought Boeing with Boeing's money and the McDonald douglas people 287 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 3: were put in charge, and they had a very different 288 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 3: business model, which was very Wall Street focused and quarterly earnings, 289 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 3: you know, And so they've made a series of decision 290 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 3: corporate decisions to cut back on personnel whose job it 291 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: was to ensure safety and put pressure on the folks 292 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 3: who were building the planes to build them quicker and faster. 293 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 3: And when people would complain about safety, that slows that 294 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 3: process down. 295 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: Documentary filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you enjoy conversations about the 296 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: making of documentary films. Check out my episode with British 297 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: filmmaker Lucy Walker. Her documentary Bring Your Own Gate is 298 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: an in depth look at California wildfires and their effect 299 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: on local residents. 300 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 4: What I want to understand is, well, how are we 301 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 4: stopping it and why are people living in these areas 302 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 4: and building these houses that burn over and over and 303 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 4: over again. Could we do better? So you would think 304 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 4: that when people look at developing an area for housing, 305 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 4: they would think about fire safety, but nobody's actually thinking about, 306 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 4: well are they going to be able to ensure these 307 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 4: homes and who's going to pay if these homes burn down. 308 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Lucy Walker, go 309 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Rory 310 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: Kennedy and I discussed the filmmakers who have influenced her work. 311 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 312 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: Filmmaker Rory Kennedy has made more than forty documentaries. Her 313 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: work has earned an Emmy and several Oscar nominations along 314 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: the way. I wanted her to share some of her 315 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: process as a filmmaker. 316 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 3: Well, you know, different people and companies work in different ways. 317 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 3: I'm very hands on as a filmmaker, and I you know, 318 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 3: I love to be doing all the interviews. 319 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: And being in the edit room, and. 320 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: So I don't take on a huge number of projects 321 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 3: at any given time. And usually when I decide that 322 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 3: I really want to do a particular project, I really 323 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 3: try to make it happen. I was really committed. I 324 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 3: felt like this story was so important, the downfall story. 325 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: I think, like so many other people, I witnessed these 326 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 3: two airplanes crashing within five months of each other, the 327 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 3: exact same aircraft. Three hundred and forty six people died, 328 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 3: and you know, I, like so many other people, fly right, 329 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 3: and I felt like I want to know what happened, 330 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 3: who knew what when, who is responsible for this? And 331 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 3: I want to make sure that something like this doesn't 332 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 3: happen again. But I also felt that, you know, during 333 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 3: the last decades that America has been really prioritizing corporate interests, right, 334 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: And so I think this film than usual. I think 335 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: this film, I hope rises to something that's not just 336 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 3: about these crashes, which is you know, as meaningful as 337 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 3: it gets. But I think it touches on something else, 338 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 3: which is the need to regulate, the need to balance 339 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: out corporate interests making money, making money, making money, and 340 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: the need to balance out with public interest right. And 341 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 3: we've seen corporations like Gooing balances for many decades and 342 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 3: do fantastically well. And I think that when that gets 343 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 3: out of balance, it hurts everybody. 344 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: So when you see someone like the fire the head 345 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: of the committee, the guy that was the leading life 346 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: there in the Congress, did he have as much integrity 347 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: overall as it appears to be on screen? 348 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: He's fantastic because you know as well as I do. 349 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: You know, where are people in governments who care enough 350 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: and they want to fight the way we're going. Like 351 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: Boeing was a company you see, well, you understand you 352 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: want people to make money and make profits. Boeing was 353 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: doing quite well before. Sure they had a slump when 354 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: Douglas took over. But what you find is not only 355 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: do people want to make money, they want to make 356 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: obscene amounts of money. They want to make an amount 357 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: of money that they're looking at you like you're a child, like, well, 358 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, now, calm down, sunny, because there's a lot 359 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: of money at stake here for us who run and 360 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: own the company. And my point is is that for me, 361 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm always so sad. I'm always so impacted by government 362 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: officials who don't have the guts to do their job, 363 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: and the government's job is to mean. I watched people 364 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: in testimony in hearings, and I think to myself, thank 365 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: God I'm not there, because I would be looking at 366 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: the heads of car companies or ol companies, going, you 367 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: don't get it. You come here, you answer our questions 368 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: on behalf of the American people. We have the authority, 369 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: and I feel like that authority is not always employed effectively. 370 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: You said, Defasio did a good job. 371 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 3: He's amazing. I mean, he and his heart was so 372 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 3: in the right place. But he was also dogged and 373 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,479 Speaker 3: he held these folks accountable. And you know when you 374 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 3: see him in those congressional testimonies and chasing down every 375 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 3: single document and you know, putting this report together, which 376 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 3: took years in the making and is incredibly thorough. They 377 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 3: go after bowing and they hold them accountable, and they're 378 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 3: continuing to go after bowing. So I think there are 379 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 3: a lot of extraordinary heroes who are celebrated, who are 380 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: really on the front lines of this, whether it's Defasio 381 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 3: or Michael Stumo who's the father of Samya Stummo who 382 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: died in the Ethiopian plane crash and turned from a 383 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 3: victim to really an advocate. And he, I mean, I 384 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 3: just got off the phone with him yesterday and he 385 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 3: he's not giving up on this. I mean, Boeing's thrown 386 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 3: a lot of money at these families to get them 387 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 3: to be quiet, and he is not going to be silenced, 388 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: and he is continuing to you know, spread the message 389 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 3: that that is that he has very continued concerns about 390 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 3: the safety of the seven thirty seven Acts, the seven 391 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: eighty seven Dreamliner. They just announced yesterday the FAA that 392 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 3: I mean as though this should be news, but that 393 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: the FAA is going to actually regulate Boeing and not 394 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 3: let Boeing regulation regulating. 395 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: So, you know, point to watch the film because that's 396 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: another interesting point about how when I was studying government 397 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: at GW in the seventies, when I went down to 398 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: Washington to go to school, and we talked about that, 399 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: and we talked about how, you know, departmentalization, how people 400 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: are in these departments, like presidents come and go we're 401 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: here civil servants for twenty thirty years, and so here 402 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: at the FA we have our own relationships with eight 403 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: with airline companies, and they allowed Gooing to self regulate 404 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: and self inspect. 405 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 3: I do think you're right that there's they're not enough 406 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: people in government who are advocating. But I guess my 407 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 3: point is is that in this film you show a 408 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 3: world where advocacy comes from a lot of different perspective. 409 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 3: It comes from the government officials doing the right thing 410 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 3: in this case to Fasio. It also comes from you know, 411 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 3: people who don't think of themselves as advocates but turn 412 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 3: into ads as a result. And then you know Andy Pastor, 413 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: who's a dogged journalist who chases down the story and 414 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 3: gets us the information. And it's the combination of all 415 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 3: of those people who come together, and you know, the storytellers, right, 416 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 3: So I'm not putting myself in that category, but we 417 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 3: also have to you know, the Lucy Walkers and yourself, 418 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 3: the people who are packaging these stories and getting them 419 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 3: out in a way that's a digestible to an audience, 420 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 3: and so that that translates hopefully into creating a better world. 421 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm curious for people to understand how documentary films come 422 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: to the screen. Bob Drew, he did the trip Tick 423 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: primary about your uncle. I mean, one of the funniest 424 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: things in the world you've ever seen in your life. 425 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: Hubert Humphrey walking into like some barn with men sitting 426 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: on bales of hay, saying, America, we know what it's 427 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: got to do. And then you cut to your uncle 428 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: walking with his wife in the room for the people, 429 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: and people are crying and screaming like it's a Beatles concert. Oh, 430 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,719 Speaker 1: who's going to win the primary. Who were your influences 431 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: in your filmmaking. 432 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 3: Well, certainly Bob Drew was, I mean an extraordinary filmmaker. 433 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: Penny Baker was a huge influence on me as well. 434 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 3: Barbara Copple, who you know, the first documentary feature I 435 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 3: made was American Hollow, which was about a family in 436 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: eastern Kentucky, and it was really an extraordinary story of 437 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 3: this woman who had thirteen kids and they all lived 438 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 3: off the land and we kind of spent a year 439 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 3: with them. Certainly influenced by Barbara and her extraordinary work 440 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 3: in Kentucky and Appalachia. So you know, I think those 441 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 3: early Veritay filmmakers have huge influence on the world of 442 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 3: filmmaking today, and then they're just you know, there's just 443 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 3: a slew of incredible filmmakers who are colleagues of mine. 444 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 3: You know, Lucy Walker you mentioned, I think she's a 445 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 3: fantastic filmmaker. My old partner, Liz Garbus, is fantastic. 446 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: Together the company, we're not still together as a. 447 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 3: Company, but we remain very good friends and advocates for 448 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: each other. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, gosh, you are so 449 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: knowledge well. Amy Berg is fantastic. 450 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 2: RJ. 451 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 3: Cutler, Davis Guggenheim. I mean, there's just Don Porter. I 452 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 3: think that we're surround by really talented filmmakers, and I 453 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 3: think there's I think we've all also been influenced, you know. 454 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 3: I think this verite influence has impacted the kinds of 455 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: work that we do. 456 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: But I think we're also. 457 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: Influenced by Hollywood and the films that we're seeing, the 458 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: narrative films and the dramatic storytelling, so that we're making 459 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 3: films that keep you a little bit more at the 460 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 3: edge of your seat of what's going to happen next, 461 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 3: you know, and really pull you into the characters and 462 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: to the plot and to you know, the storytelling. I 463 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: think it's very sophisticated these days. I think you know, 464 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: you see it out in the world, and you know 465 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 3: when you turn on your. 466 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 2: Netflix account, it's a mix up there. 467 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 3: It's not like, here's the narratives and then go down 468 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 3: deep into your Netflix account to find the documentaries. They're 469 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 3: up center. You know, because people are watching them. They're 470 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 3: they're pulled in, and I think it's because they're really 471 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 3: great storytellers. 472 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: Filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a 473 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on 474 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 475 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: When we come back, Rory Kennedy talks about the film 476 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: of hers that was the hardest for her to make. 477 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 478 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 1: The Kennedy family has made history, and most of that 479 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: while occupying a path from Hyannasport, Massachusetts, down to McLean, Virginia, 480 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: and yet Rory somehow landed in California. 481 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 3: Well, my husband Mark, as you know, is a screenwriter 482 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 3: and a writer, and he is also my partner in 483 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 3: writing documentaries, but he has other writing that draws him 484 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: out there. So we decided we'd go out there for 485 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 3: a couple of years because at that time, ten or 486 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 3: twelve years ago, the kind of independent film world was 487 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 3: fizzling out here in New York and was sort of 488 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 3: pivoting over the West Coast. 489 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: We fell in love with California. 490 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: Your brother moves that. I tooked to him on find 491 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: I go, how do you like? He goes, It's great. 492 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: I go, oh god, no, no, I said, not you 493 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: not you come on out. I said, you're you're going 494 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: out there? I said, man, I think Cheryl's great, but 495 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of other women out there for you, Bob, 496 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: and we doesn't have to be living out there in California. 497 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: And he loves it. 498 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. He came out there with his EMU, his bird. 499 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 3: I remember he was trying to figure out a way 500 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 3: to get the bird out there, and I said, well, 501 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 3: you know, I maybe try Richard Plepler. He's got that 502 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 3: HBO plane. So he called Richard and he said, can 503 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 3: I bring my can you take my bird out? But 504 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 3: he failed to mention that the bird was six feet 505 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 3: high and needed to go with Richard anyway, so he 506 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 3: said the bird caing order came out and then Bobby 507 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 3: didn't have a house for the first couple of weeks, 508 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 3: so the bird lived at my house with Mark made 509 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 3: blueberries and anyway, there are lots of stories to tell 510 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 3: about Toby the bird. 511 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: And he loves California, know too. 512 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he loves he loves it out there. 513 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: Now, you did the movie about your mom, and of 514 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: course you make a little joke there, but how difficult 515 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: it was to recruit your mom? 516 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 2: Yes she was. 517 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 1: She was not a willing subject to be filmed, No, 518 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: but eventually she settled down. 519 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 3: My siblings were very difficult too, by the way. Really well, yes, 520 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 3: they just didn't. 521 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: Make it easy. 522 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 3: They're busy yet, No, they just wanted to make it 523 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 3: difficult for me, because why would it Why would they 524 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 3: make it easy when they don't have to know? They 525 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 3: were all fantastic and including my mother, and they they 526 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 3: did answer ultimately all the questions. 527 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 2: I asked them. 528 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: And my mother, I was just with her yesterday. I 529 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: played backhaming with her, and I mean I was just 530 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: I was winning whole game. My dice were so much better. 531 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 3: I played brilliantly, and then she beat me again. She's 532 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 3: ninety four. I cannot beat that woman playing back him. 533 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 3: And I'm not a bad Vackham. 534 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 2: And Claire, I love that. 535 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: I love that. Your mother also, And you know this 536 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: infy better than I do. She just in her own 537 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: wonderful way and in a truly in a truly marvelous way. 538 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: She just doesn't suffer fools at all. And we're playing 539 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: golf up there at the golf tournament, and she says 540 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: to me, come and golf with me. You're gonna you're 541 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: gonna be with me, and you're gonna be with Frank 542 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: and so and so and so. And I go, I said, 543 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: I beg your pardon. I said, you have to really 544 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: understand it's important because this I've crossed this with this 545 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: juncture before. I said, I'm a miserable golfer. Oh of 546 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: course you can hit a golf ball. Come on, come on, 547 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: I said, no, no, I don't think you really understand. I 548 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: need you desperately to listen to carefully what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, please, 549 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: this is non sense. Come on, You're to come with me, 550 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: You're gonna play with me, and Frank and I, as 551 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: is always the case, I am scared to do so 552 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: I do fairly well. I can drive the ball. I 553 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: could I get lucky with the iron. I can put 554 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: I can drive iron some terrible We get to the 555 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: second of the third. Hold in your mother, She goes, 556 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: you're right, you really can't golf? Can you? 557 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: Did you shake you off your team? Could we get 558 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: low in here? 559 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: Someone? Where's the ringer that was following us to fill information? Now? 560 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: One thing I noticed when I worked with the Counstler 561 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: sisters who did disturb in the universe about their father, 562 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: William Kunstler. And when I was talking to them, it 563 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: was I kind of knew this, but it was brought 564 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: into sharper focus for me. The cost. I mean, they 565 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: told me that they were trying to retire a debt 566 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: of like forty thousand, fifty thousand dollars of debt they 567 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: owed for archival footage from NBC and other network news organizations. 568 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: Is that true for you as well? Meaning do you 569 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: do you find these costs or just? I mean, because I, 570 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: for one belief that old network news organizations the material 571 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: should be made free under fair use. These are public airwaves. 572 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it is. 573 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 3: It can be astronomical the cost associated with archive. I mean, 574 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 3: we're lucky enough with this film that it was it 575 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 3: was fully financed by Netflix, who covered those costs for us, 576 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 3: so we're not debt on it, but it can really 577 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 3: make her a lot of terrific documentaries out there. I 578 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 3: think more people are leaning into fair use, but there 579 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 3: has been a few instances of backlash against that where 580 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 3: people chase them down and demand being paid, you know, 581 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 3: particularly for these historical documentaries. 582 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: It's a real cost. 583 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: Well, it's like people who when I was working more 584 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: consistently on the issue of campaign finance reform with creative 585 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: coalition organizations I worked with years ago in the nineties, 586 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: from disparate sources, we learned that one of the great 587 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: enemies of campaign finance reform is the National Association of 588 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: Broadcasters because these affiliates in the network TV world. Someone 589 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: said to me, there are stations in this country that 590 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: make seventy percent of their annual budget during one election 591 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: cycle and selling political advertising. They do not want to 592 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: take the money out of politics, and the NAB, the 593 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: National Association BOROK, is constantly fighting campaign finance law changes. 594 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, listen I so appreciate your work in that 595 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 3: air area too, because I think, you know, when just 596 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 3: circling back to your point about you know, who are 597 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 3: these leaders now like Defasio who are advocating for us. 598 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 3: I think it's it's hard, given the system that we 599 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: have to really produce and encourage people who are in 600 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 3: it exclusively for the public interest, right. I mean that 601 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 3: those are the types of people who you want to 602 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 3: be driven to politics as people who are going to 603 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 3: make the world a better place, but instead they're often 604 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 3: driven there because of money, and that's not really the 605 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 3: reason you want people ultimately in that position. So I 606 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 3: think there's a lot still to be done, obviously with 607 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 3: campaign finance reform in this country. 608 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: Which film for you was the most difficult to put 609 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: together as a film, What was the biggest challenge? 610 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 3: Well, I think the hardest one for me was ethel 611 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 3: you know, the stakes were so high and it was 612 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 3: so deeply personal. You know, I had to look through 613 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 3: lots of footage. We're talking about archive footage, you know, 614 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 3: some of which was extraordinary and beautiful and so fun 615 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 3: to see and just you know, gave me a depth 616 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 3: of understanding of my family and my father who I 617 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 3: never met, you know, just watching him in this footage 618 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 3: and a lot of footage has never been seen before, 619 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 3: was a really beautiful experience for me. But it was 620 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 3: also emotionally challenging and difficult, and you know, I wanted 621 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 3: to ultimately make a film that showed, you know, the 622 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 3: challenges and the difficulties that my mother in particular went 623 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 3: through and faced, but also, you know, to celebrate her 624 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 3: because I think that for so many people in our family, 625 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 3: with a focus on Robert Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy, 626 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 3: but there's not as much focus on the women, right, 627 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 3: and they're you know, my unit started the Special Olympic. 628 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 3: She's contributed enormously, but she hasn't quite gotten that same 629 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 3: level of attention and Nora has my mother and so 630 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 3: many people when they introduce me, they say, oh, this 631 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 3: is Robert Kennedy's daughter, and I'm like, well, my mother 632 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 3: actually raised me, and you know, she played a pretty 633 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 3: big part in like who I am. So part of 634 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 3: it was like, I think she deserves the spotlight at 635 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 3: least for a moment, like at least to be understood, yeah, 636 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 3: and to help people understand her contribution because she was 637 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 3: also her nature was to kind of stand behind and 638 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 3: not you know, be the one on the microphone and 639 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 3: be the one sort of at the front line. So anyway, 640 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 3: I think just for me personally, the stakes were higher 641 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 3: on that one and it was more challenging for me. 642 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: What are you working on next? 643 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 2: I'm working on a couple projects. 644 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 3: I've got another film with Netflix that is about a 645 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 3: volcanic eruption that I'm doing right now, and then I've 646 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 3: got a film about. 647 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 2: The global refugee crisis that's a big light. 648 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 3: Yes, these are the main ones I'm focused on, and 649 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 3: I'm very excited to, you know, have this film coming 650 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 3: out on Netflix and committed to getting as many eyes 651 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 3: on it as possible. 652 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: Now, Last Days of Vietnam was in twenty fourteen. How 653 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: many of these films Ethel was in twenty twelve, I 654 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: can't believe it. What of these last films have most 655 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: of them been with Netflix? 656 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 3: Now, this is my first film that I've directed with Netflix. 657 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 3: Last Days was with PBS, Etha was with HBO, did 658 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 3: a film about NASA with the Discovery Channel. 659 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: Let me just. 660 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 3: Say, Alec that I have such an admiration and respect 661 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 3: for you. You're such a talented artist, and you've always 662 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 3: committed yourself to making the world a better place. 663 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 2: And you have such. 664 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 3: A love for people and a heart that is more 665 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 3: open and more generous than anybody I know. And I 666 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 3: just have such deep admiration. 667 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 2: And respect for you. 668 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:05,439 Speaker 1: I love for your mom. 669 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 2: I will you take care. Thank you. 670 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: Rory Kennedy. Her documentary Downfall, The Case against Boeing, is 671 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: available now on Netflix. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, 672 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperio. 673 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.