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Speaker 1: Hello. This is my podcast. It's called Cool People Who

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Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff. I'm Martint gil Joy. I'm the host

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Speaker 1: of podcast. My guest today is John Darnielle. He writes

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Speaker 1: songs and books and if you haven't read the book

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Speaker 1: All from Right, then you're missing out. John. How are

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Speaker 1: you doing today? In decent? I'm keeping busy, but I'm good.

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Speaker 1: And we have Sophie on the call. Who is our producer?

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Speaker 1: How are you, Sophie? I'm doing well. Margaret, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm okay? I think Garrett, I'm not sure if I said.

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Speaker 1: If you want to know more about Sophie's job as

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Speaker 1: a producer, you should watch the nine seven mel Brooks

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Speaker 1: documentary called The Producers. It's all about Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's like they stole my life and put it into

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Speaker 1: a documentary called The Producers. Yeah yeah, which is true

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Speaker 1: in music production as well. I believe all producers are

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Speaker 1: just mel Brooks. Okay. We also have Ian as our

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Speaker 1: editor and our theme music is by a woman, and

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Speaker 1: you should check out more music by women. So today

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Speaker 1: is part two of our two part series on those

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Speaker 1: wacky religious radicals of the English Civil War, the Levelers,

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Speaker 1: the Diggers and the ranters. And in part one we

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Speaker 1: talked about the levelers, who don't really seem all that

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Speaker 1: radical by today's standards, but who put their bodies on

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Speaker 1: the line for a republic instead of the dictatorship that

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Speaker 1: they got. But today I want to talk about people

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Speaker 1: who took things a step further, the diggers who wanted

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Speaker 1: to abolish private property, and the ranters who didn't believe

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Speaker 1: there was such thing as sin, very theologically based. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever heard much about the Diggers? Uh? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean you're across their name a lot, but I mean

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Speaker 1: I never have pursued it that much, in part because

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Speaker 1: this is a there's an English movement, right yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I mean I've heard about it, but I haven't.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an English history uh you know, in the

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Speaker 1: history expert in any way. So so yeah, so I

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Speaker 1: know roughly like what space they occupied politically, but but

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Speaker 1: it's about it. Yeah, that makes sense. I I kind

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Speaker 1: of had this like distaste for English history and was

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Speaker 1: like much more into Irish history and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and then, um, honestly, hearing about some of the complexities

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Speaker 1: the English Civil War was the first time I was like, oh, right,

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Speaker 1: there's actually really interesting stuff going on with all of that.

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Speaker 1: It is it's uh, it can be quite arcane, and

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Speaker 1: there's so a few points of reasons. And history is

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Speaker 1: like history always refers to itself, right, So at the

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Speaker 1: time you're by the time your ten in the US,

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Speaker 1: whatever country you grow up, and you have some basics

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Speaker 1: we can talk about whether or not you know, it's

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Speaker 1: basically good. They always bear some interrogation, but you know,

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Speaker 1: at the very least the governing myths, right, and so

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Speaker 1: whereas uh, most of English history there's no reason really

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Speaker 1: for us to learn that less we're curious, right, So yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: And then there's the sort of like it's the land

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Speaker 1: of myths, like you know, I kind of I like

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Speaker 1: English history and that I liked when I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: I liked things of swords in them. You know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not actually yeah, um which actually you know actually

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Speaker 1: is to deal with the whole world actually has a

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Speaker 1: lot of really interesting sword time and stuff. Well yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the thing is with a lot of English history,

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Speaker 1: if it's pre if it's prior to the modern era,

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Speaker 1: it's prior to you know, good documentation. It why it

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Speaker 1: turns out to be French history, you know. So yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: there's a major theme in my new book is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we think of English castles, but the castle

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Speaker 1: is unquestionably a Norman import. You can't you can't find

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Speaker 1: a castle prior to the French building castles. But the

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Speaker 1: English tradition of the English castle is very much you know,

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Speaker 1: that's this English thing and it's probably I think it

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Speaker 1: might actually be Saxon eventually. But um, but there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of argument about this in the forties, fifties

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Speaker 1: and sixties about you know, no, no, the English had

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Speaker 1: their own castles. Who don't and there's no was a

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Speaker 1: Norman import. So what that does to English prehistory, to

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Speaker 1: the stuff that you know, to the myths is as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is a big thing in Devil House

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Speaker 1: in my new book, that King Arthur, King Arthur has

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Speaker 1: a castle and the knights of the Round Table lived there, right,

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Speaker 1: but King Arthur. Yeah, but no, The thing is there

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Speaker 1: probably was a King Arthur, but he was English, right,

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Speaker 1: and he reigned in England before there were castles in England, right,

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Speaker 1: and before there were kings who ruled England, right, So

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Speaker 1: so all all this stuff is maybe not No, he

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Speaker 1: would have he would have predated Alfred. So, um, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a king's guy, do you know me speaking?

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Speaker 1: But I did a lot of work on this, and like,

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Speaker 1: so so what what what A lot of these kings

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Speaker 1: turned out to be rather is local things, right th

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Speaker 1: h E g N and if you know the term.

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Speaker 1: But they're trying to be things, you know, and their

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Speaker 1: castle was probably like slightly less modest dwelling than everybody else's.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like this stuff is very interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, well that's a good pitch. That's actually, Um,

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Speaker 1: I've read two of your books. I don't actually remember

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Speaker 1: how many novels you have out, um, but I have

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Speaker 1: not read Devil House yet. So this is telling me

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Speaker 1: that there's castles or lack of castles kind of Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of giving you a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: spoiler for one of the big reveals there, but it

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Speaker 1: won't it won't take anything off the plot. Okay, cool, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So the Levelers, they they get called the Levelers by

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Speaker 1: people who don't like them very much, right, They get

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Speaker 1: compared to the original Levelers fifty years earlier, who had

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Speaker 1: been following that guy with a little magic bit of

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Speaker 1: green cheese who told them to tear down all the

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Speaker 1: fences and kind of got them all killed, Captain pouch. So.

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Speaker 1: But then the levelers that we talked about last time,

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Speaker 1: they they didn't want to redistribute the lander of the wealth.

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Speaker 1: They just wanted political quality, uh, not to overturn the

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Speaker 1: economic order. So they didn't really see themselves as leveling,

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Speaker 1: which is fair because they weren't leveling today's here, as

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Speaker 1: though they sure as hell wanted to do a leveling.

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Speaker 1: They they said, and a paraphrase here, those people aren't

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Speaker 1: the levelers, were the true levelers. And but it's a

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Speaker 1: possible to name your own political movement back then, apparently

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Speaker 1: because the levelers who wanted to be called the agitators,

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Speaker 1: and the Quakers who wanted to be called the Society

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Speaker 1: of Friends, the the the people who wanted to be

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Speaker 1: called the true Levelers get called the diggers, and the

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Speaker 1: name stuck m hm. And they they first announced themselves

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Speaker 1: to the world is after they had started doing some

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Speaker 1: of what they'll do, which I've got to with a

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Speaker 1: pamphlet called the True Levelers Standard Advanced in this case

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Speaker 1: standard meaning flags. So we've moved forward the flag of

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Speaker 1: leveling and and you know, so they were like, we

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Speaker 1: are the true Levelers. That's our book are Manifesto. It's

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Speaker 1: as true Levelers on it, and people are like, but

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Speaker 1: it was Britain. So they were like, well, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: call you the diggers because I mean, look at that,

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Speaker 1: you're digging a hole, So you're the diggers. I think. Also,

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Speaker 1: self branding is is usually a fairly failed effort. People

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Speaker 1: really try to do it, but but you wind up

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Speaker 1: getting getting cold. What what you know, if it's a

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Speaker 1: vast movement, the other people in the movement would up

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Speaker 1: naming it, yeah, totally, or in this case, a lot

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Speaker 1: of the the people who are outside the movement who

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Speaker 1: are either looking down on you or or not, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the name that the media runs with is going

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Speaker 1: to be what lasts in history. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: these cases. But they did dig uh. Specifically, they wanted

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Speaker 1: to get onto the commons, the land or land that

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Speaker 1: they should believe that they believe should be the commons,

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Speaker 1: and grow food communally. And I don't know everything about

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Speaker 1: what they wanted to plant. I I did look up

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Speaker 1: and check that potatoes had been introduced from the New

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Speaker 1: World to the old world by this point, so potatoes

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Speaker 1: were a possibility, um. But but mostly they planted peas

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Speaker 1: and parsnips and carrots and barley and corn, which are

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Speaker 1: all perfectly good, fine plants. It's fine. And they got

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Speaker 1: their justification for what they were doing from the Bible,

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Speaker 1: uh specifically the the verse that they quoted a lot

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Speaker 1: was Act for thirty two. And the multitude of them

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Speaker 1: that believed were of one heart and of one soul.

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Speaker 1: Neither said of any of them that ought of the

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Speaker 1: things which he possessed was his own, but that but

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Speaker 1: that they had all things in common. And so this

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Speaker 1: was there. You know, all of us who believe we

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Speaker 1: will share everything, that is what the Bible asks us

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Speaker 1: to do. And they also got their justification from the

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Speaker 1: fact that food prices were at an all time high

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Speaker 1: because of the war, and everyone was hungry, and the

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Speaker 1: country was absolutely ravaged by these deep political divisions, which

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Speaker 1: is of course totally unfamiliar to listeners today. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the thing is, trying to reconcile the Bible with gigantic

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Speaker 1: nations is a fool's Errand you know, the Bible is

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Speaker 1: a book for for people who are living in a

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Speaker 1: much more in smaller communities. Right, So it's like the

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Speaker 1: Bible's a book of community, not nations. In my view,

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Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense. I like that idea, um. But

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Speaker 1: but that hasn't stopped everybody from trying to insist that.

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Speaker 1: Like when the word nation whatever it's Hebrew or a

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Speaker 1: Sebtulian equivalent, is when it appears like it's supposed to be,

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Speaker 1: especially Americans have a constitutionalist reading of everything. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: a nation and they said nation, and now nations are big,

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Speaker 1: so it has to apply to us. But none of

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Speaker 1: the authors of the Bible would have had any notion

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Speaker 1: of a nation having a sort of size and scope

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Speaker 1: and power that that even the smallest nations have now

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Speaker 1: really um, yeah, so yeah, it's trying trying to trying

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Speaker 1: to harmonize stuff in the Bible that seems fairly clear

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Speaker 1: isn't often isn't often compatible with modern facts on the ground.

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Speaker 1: Now that makes sense. And then there's the kind of this, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, the difference between nation and state, right, Um, Nation,

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Speaker 1: state and country are all kind of actually different things

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Speaker 1: that overlap in a lot of ways. But yeah, and

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Speaker 1: there's another thing always worth remembering is like in these

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Speaker 1: readings of the Bible that are happening in the US. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they tend to disregard that the disciples thought Jesus was

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Speaker 1: coming back next week. You know. They didn't think, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's gonna go away for a very very long time

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Speaker 1: in some future generation we can't conceive of we'll see

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Speaker 1: him again. They expected to see him again in their lifetimes,

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Speaker 1: you know. So, so when they're talking about sharing and stuff,

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Speaker 1: they're talking about sharing going forward until the thing that

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Speaker 1: we expect to happen happens. Right, that's my understanding. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now it's interesting. This is absolutely why I wanted you

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Speaker 1: to be the guest for this particular episode. But so,

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Speaker 1: but this isn't so by the time you get the hundreds,

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Speaker 1: you're doing this sort of building a functional public ideology,

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Speaker 1: right that's rooted in what was a much more communal faith. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: So there's it's no accident that these these people are

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Speaker 1: are ye utilizing Christian concepts and everything, but those concepts

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Speaker 1: are very hard to use at scale. Yeah, totally, as

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Speaker 1: we have noted. Yep. And so one of my friends

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Speaker 1: I was talking to about the Diggers, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what why are they so important to you. You know.

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Speaker 1: I was looking, I was reading about them, and one

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Speaker 1: of my friends was like, I'm so excited about the Diggers.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited you're doing an episode about the Diggers. And

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Speaker 1: what she said that she particularly liked about them is

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Speaker 1: that there's sort of an essential gentleness for them. There's

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Speaker 1: they come out of years and years of war and strife,

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Speaker 1: and they're these like frustrated, hungry peasants. A lot of

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Speaker 1: them had been soldiers in the war and they were like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, fuck it, I'm going to go plant

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Speaker 1: vegetables and never touch a sword again. And that was

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the basic idea of and it's

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Speaker 1: the sort of essential gentleness. And a lot of discussion

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Speaker 1: about political radicals tends to leave out the the gentle radicals.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's why it's one of the things

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Speaker 1: I get excited about about the Takers. Yeah. No, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's extremely true in radical spaces, and people tend

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Speaker 1: to there's a couple of ways, a couple of spaces

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Speaker 1: along the growth they get that way. But there's many

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Speaker 1: many people who froom gentleness is not an affirmative value, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And they make and they tend to make extremely uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they want to argue about that as a

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Speaker 1: general rule. They want to they want to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're failing to stand up for the people who can't

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Speaker 1: afford to be gentle, right, and so is it compelling argument?

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Speaker 1: Quite often, you know, But but I'm not sure that

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Speaker 1: it's true. I mean, but you know, right now, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about there's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of talk about especially like, you know, shouldn't a marginalized

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Speaker 1: community arm itself, you know, if if the entire power

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Speaker 1: of the state is weaponized against it, super valid point.

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Speaker 1: But but I think I think those wind up sort

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Speaker 1: of polarizing. Then you said, well, if we're doing that,

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Speaker 1: then the values of gentleness aren't part of our deal.

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Speaker 1: And it's like you want to be folding in gentleness

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Speaker 1: because that's where you want to wind up at the end,

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Speaker 1: and you sort of can't you know, table gentleness and

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Speaker 1: then come back to it later. Yeah. Well, and actually,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's kind of interesting to me because as

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Speaker 1: someone who you know, um, I think people have listened

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Speaker 1: to the show before now that I'm like, I'm armed.

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Speaker 1: I'm a transwoman who lives in the South, and I

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Speaker 1: chose to to be armed. But but the idea that

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Speaker 1: like being armed in gentleness should be counter to each other,

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Speaker 1: it just seems absolutely ludicrous to me. You know. Um,

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Speaker 1: and there's I think your possessions have you know, they come,

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Speaker 1: they come to define you. You know. It's like I'm

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Speaker 1: with I'm glad you're armed, even though I'm an anti

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Speaker 1: gun guy. It's like, I don't I would prefer the

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Speaker 1: nobody be armed. And so you know, I I support

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Speaker 1: really intense legislation about firearms, but but in the absence

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Speaker 1: of that legislation, I think it makes also good sense

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Speaker 1: for somebody who might find themselves to be a target

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Speaker 1: to be armed. You know, I don't like, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: do any good to say, well, because I'm against people

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Speaker 1: owning firearms, I won't have one. That's not really good position,

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Speaker 1: because it's like, you know, it's like I'm also against uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm against people inequably making money. But right now,

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Speaker 1: if I can make more money than somebody, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna say, oh, no, you have to pay me less,

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Speaker 1: because because it's like that's that's foolish, it's you know,

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, but but yeah, it's it's a but but

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Speaker 1: I do think you know, it's like the whole weapons

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Speaker 1: are in and of themselves not gentle you know that

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Speaker 1: that It's like what you want to avoid is is

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Speaker 1: thinking about them in certain sorts of ways. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, you want to But then C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis has a riff about this, how you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're going to war you should do it with both

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Speaker 1: hands instead of you don't go to war. Good, well,

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Speaker 1: I hate to have to kill this guy. It's no,

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Speaker 1: you should kill your enemy when you're at war, you know, right,

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I mean, it's actually kind of interesting

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Speaker 1: to me because that's one of the things that I

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Speaker 1: I didn't prepare anything about this at all, but it's

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Speaker 1: one of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately,

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Speaker 1: is about this, like how do we hold onto Maybe

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Speaker 1: there's a tension and holding onto a gentleness as like

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Speaker 1: while going armed right or while trying to become more

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Speaker 1: capable of expressing self defense or a community defense. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I have to think about the C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis part of it, because part of me is like, well,

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Speaker 1: I actually some of the people that I respect the

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Speaker 1: most are people who do the hard work of holding

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Speaker 1: onto you know, however there they'll view it their their

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Speaker 1: humanity or their holiness or their you know, their soul

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Speaker 1: or however they want to phrase it. Things. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's stuff of the bood Gita about this where

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Speaker 1: our juna uh on the battlefield, et cetera, and uh

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Speaker 1: and the whole bad that kicks off because he says

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Speaker 1: to his friend Christia, he doesn't really want to fight,

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Speaker 1: and don't the scriptures forbid us from doing this? And Christia,

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Speaker 1: who is God and also is his friends, says, oh no, no,

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Speaker 1: if your role as soldier, you should be a soldier, right,

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Speaker 1: It's like that's that's your that's it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: it's it's to me, it's actually labor relay. You should

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Speaker 1: do your job and do it wholeheartedly. The only way

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Speaker 1: to do any kind of work for the Buda is

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Speaker 1: to give it all to God. So when you are cooking,

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Speaker 1: you're cooking for God. You're cooking the best you can,

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Speaker 1: you know. And when you're fighting, you're you're at war

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Speaker 1: for God, you know, whether it's a holy battle or not.

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Speaker 1: And that's as it's much bigger than the scope for

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Speaker 1: discussion here. But but those are, but they're they're both

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Speaker 1: in both traditions. There's a notion that that whichever role

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Speaker 1: you're inhabiting, you should inhabit wholeheartedly, rather than rather than

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Speaker 1: trying to sort of cut, you know, trying to hedge bets.

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, no, that's interesting and it gets into

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about a little bit later in the script is that

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Speaker 1: the people are also pacifist, right, and that is a

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Speaker 1: big part of their their movement. Um, And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's still love to think about it. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna think about some more of that. Okay. So there's

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Speaker 1: this there's this guy who gets called the leader of

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Speaker 1: the Diggers. He's not the leader of the diggers. He's

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Speaker 1: not the founder of the Diggers. There's no particular evidence

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Speaker 1: that he was the leader besides the fact that he

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Speaker 1: was the writer. And his name is Gerard Winstanley, and

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Speaker 1: and he's kind of he's the guy who showed up

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Speaker 1: and saw what was going on and wrote about it

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Speaker 1: and spread the word. So in some ways he's a leader,

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Speaker 1: but he's not the leader of this particular movement. And

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Speaker 1: he was born in sixteen o nine, he was middle class.

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Speaker 1: He moved to London became a tailor. In sixty three,

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Speaker 1: he goes bankrupt and he didn't like capitalism. Well capitalism

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Speaker 1: doesn't really exist yet, but you know, he doesn't like

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Speaker 1: this particular system that's developing. And he blames the quote

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Speaker 1: cheating sons and the thieving art of buying and selling.

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Speaker 1: So he really hates buying and selling, probably because he

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Speaker 1: wasn't all that good at it. But and the Civil

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Speaker 1: War doesn't help his business either. So he's bankrupt and

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Speaker 1: he foxed off to the village of Cobham to get

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Speaker 1: a job as a cowherd. And I prefer to imagine

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Speaker 1: a cow herd as a cowboy, so I'm going to

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Speaker 1: refer as a cowboy. And it's he's like a shepherd,

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Speaker 1: I think, so yeah, yeah, no, yeah, he's not actually

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Speaker 1: moving cows across the planes or anything like that. He's

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Speaker 1: keeping track of them. Okay, fine, the cow shepherd. And

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Speaker 1: it's during his time as a cow shepherd that he

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Speaker 1: starts turning his thoughts to religion and theology and he's

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Speaker 1: looking for answers to what has wrecked his life and

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Speaker 1: how he might make it and the lives of other

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Speaker 1: people better, and he also winds up a leveler. And

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Speaker 1: I like how the levelers basically was this big mass

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Speaker 1: of the people who thought things should be better somewhat,

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Speaker 1: and then all of these different factions within the levelers

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Speaker 1: came out and and did other things and went in

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Speaker 1: different actions with that leveling or with being a leveler.

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Speaker 1: So when Stanley and the Diggers the true levelers, they

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Speaker 1: branch off from the same philosophical starting point as the levelers.

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Speaker 1: And when Stanley, during his time you know, pondering all

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Speaker 1: this theology or whatever, he believes in a few things.

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Speaker 1: First and foremost, he believes in reason. He saw reason

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Speaker 1: within each person as the godliness within each individual. Man

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Speaker 1: and woman um. And he did explicitly in his earlier

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Speaker 1: writings say man and woman um, not just using man

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Speaker 1: as a catch all for all people, though he used

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Speaker 1: that occasionally. Also later he gets in his post digging works,

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Speaker 1: which I don't like as much, he gets um real

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Speaker 1: explicit about how man is the head of the household. Um,

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Speaker 1: the leveling stops at the door, But why doesn't say it?

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Speaker 1: Doesn't phrase it the leveling stops at the door, But

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Speaker 1: that's a you know, But he talks about how the

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Speaker 1: word God can't sum up the divine and how he

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Speaker 1: and so many others were led astray by that word

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Speaker 1: think of God as an external thing. So he pretty

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Speaker 1: much called God reason. And he said that it was

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Speaker 1: chill if everyone came up their own word for God. Yes,

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Speaker 1: this is a very nineteenth century English position. Okay, well

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Speaker 1: he's he's two centuries ahead of time, three centuries. This

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Speaker 1: is when the sixteenth century, this is the seventeenth century,

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Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds. Wow. So this, yeah, this sort of

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Speaker 1: thinking in the nineteenth century becomes pretty I mean, obviously

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Speaker 1: American transnittalism goes into that you know, and you and

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Speaker 1: you wind up, you know, after the you wind up

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Speaker 1: with the twentieth century with you know, the A Creado

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Speaker 1: people saying you have something you call a higher power. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's it's all that's on a continuum, I think, mm hmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I've I've actually been interested. I've watched some of my

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Speaker 1: friends go into a A and have to learn how

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Speaker 1: to work that into how they consider I don't like

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Speaker 1: a lot of my like. Right. The thing is in

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Speaker 1: a you don't have to believe in God. You just

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Speaker 1: have to believe that there's the power greater than yourself, right,

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Speaker 1: which seems self evident. But when you are an active addict,

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Speaker 1: you may or may not actually believe that you're running

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Speaker 1: on ego all the time when you sit down and

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Speaker 1: actually look at how you're behaving. So it seems that

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Speaker 1: I don't think there are powers greater than myself, you know.

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Speaker 1: So so yeah, so like you know, it can be.

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Speaker 1: I had one guy explained too points we say we

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Speaker 1: can be a chair because I can't change the nature

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Speaker 1: of this chair. What you're wanting to, what you're wanting

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Speaker 1: to learn is a serenity, for ability to accept the

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Speaker 1: things you can't change change things you can, and to

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Speaker 1: be smart enough to know the difference beween those two things.

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Speaker 1: So when Stanley believes that it's entirely biblically justified, if

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Speaker 1: not necessitated, to abolish kings, that there ought to be

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Speaker 1: no masters and servants, no aristocracy and commoner, and for

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Speaker 1: this he's seen as like generally the father of Christian socialism.

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Speaker 1: And although you've already pointed out that you can sort

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Speaker 1: of biblically justify a lot of things, and it's all

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Speaker 1: based on these different scales and contexts. But um, now, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I got lost thinking about how like this was. This

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Speaker 1: is like two censers typical about what you're just saying.

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Speaker 1: It's like two centuries before a lot of other people

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Speaker 1: are saying this, And that's like one of one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's so interesting about the Diggers is their

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Speaker 1: outsize impact theologically and politically for how small of a

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Speaker 1: movement they actually were. So that's kind of interesting that

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Speaker 1: I knew about how it influenced some of the like

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Speaker 1: the political movements, or prefigured some of the political movements.

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Speaker 1: But it's cool to know that also prefigured a lot

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Speaker 1: of theological ideas, just thinking yeah, okay, and so he

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Speaker 1: he also to prefigure a lot of nineteenth century socialism.

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Speaker 1: He said that the enclosure of the commons and the

423
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 1: creation of private property was essentially an act of theft

424
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: and banditry. It's a way of stealing from everyone else

425
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: and from his a declaration from the poor oppressed people

426
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: of England the name of one of his pamphlets, The

427
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: power of enclosing land and owning property was brought into

428
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 1: the creation by your ancestors by the sword which first

429
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: did murder their fellow creatures, men and after plunder or

430
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 1: steal away their land, and left this land successively to

431
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 1: you their children. And therefore, though you did not kill

432
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 1: or thieve, yet you hold that cursed thing in your

433
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: hand by the power of the sword, and so you

434
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: justify the wicked deeds of your father's And that sin

435
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: of your father shall be visited upon the head of

436
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: you and your children to the third and fourth generation

437
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: and longer too, so your bloody and thieving power be

438
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 1: rooted out from the land. And I thought this is

439
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 1: interesting partly because that's also not a terrible description of

440
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: what it means to live as a white person in

441
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 1: the United States in terms of like kind of like, well,

442
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,719
Speaker 1: I didn't do the colonizing, you know, and and that's true,

443
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: but then like realizing that like we have inherited what

444
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 1: has been stolen at the point of the sword. And

445
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: he was also, I believe, the first person in English,

446
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: not the first person overall, but the first person in

447
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: English to espouse Christian universalism in writing, which, as I

448
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: understand it, again not a huge theology. Girl of this

449
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 1: podcast is turning me into one because it's so tied

450
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 1: into history that I like um, which is the concept

451
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: that everyone, even the most sinful people eventually get into heaven. Yeah. Yeah,

452
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: I mean most people wind up believing that there's a

453
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,199
Speaker 1: great deal to say about that. Uh, And it's not.

454
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: Once you get into the subjects, you sort of can't

455
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: just open the door and and say, well, here's a

456
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: there's thumbnail and we'll move back to the other thing.

457
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 1: You know. But I mean it's the exact opposite of

458
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: of you know what Calvin John Calvin, and there are

459
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: there's an active Calvinist strain right now. It's like Calvinism

460
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: has actually been Uh there's been a resurgence of Calvinists

461
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 1: thinking you know, of of and you know, that's predeterminism

462
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: that like you're either getting into heaven or not based

463
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: on how it was already decided when you were born, right, Uh,

464
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: which is like I'm not a Calvinist in any CID.

465
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: So I can't see who having this position why. I mean,

466
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: I can't conceive of it within any understanding of the

467
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: God that I serve um you know, uh, and and

468
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: the guy that I served with lots of faces and

469
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: I consider you know, like I can understand many different

470
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: perspectives on that, but I can't imagine asking anybody to

471
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 1: behave any kind of way. If if everything is predetermined,

472
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: you know, then then there's no reason for me to

473
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: do anything. And you know, then you have to construct

474
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: all theology around possibly of losing the grace that you

475
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: were born with. Right, Um, and none of that, none

476
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: of this has has scriptural support in my view. But

477
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: but at the same time, it's and this actually has

478
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: to do with with issues of gentleness versus I don't

479
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: know what you'd call the opposite of that ferocity. Yeah,

480
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean it's you search for for masculine

481
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: feminine archetypal terms, right, you know, for the feminine versus

482
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: the masculine. The feminine receives, the masculine puts out cues, right,

483
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff which we're at present,

484
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, in tearing getting intensely and for the better.

485
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: But um, but when you say everybody's getting in, right,

486
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I like this idea, uh, but it also

487
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: becomes harder to ask people to care about any of

488
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: the thought that went into that. Right, And and I

489
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: get that, And this is where I have a conservative

490
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: part of me, like I think, you know, if everybody

491
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 1: had to spend more time with these ideas if it

492
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: was you know, when when people talk about religionistation in

493
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: the schools, well, obviously I don't want that, right, but

494
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: I think it does almost anybody good to contemplate the

495
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: world's religions. It's like I would if somebody said there

496
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: ought to be an actual course on world religion for

497
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: high school students or junior high students, and then and

498
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: the course had to be mandated, so it really did

499
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: fairly cover you know, all the Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam.

500
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: You know, I'd I'd be in favor of that. I think,

501
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: you know, wrestling with those ideas does a person in

502
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: a society good. And an absence of contact with those ideas,

503
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: direct contact and forny wrestling contact, I think leaves it

504
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: leaves a person wondering, you know, this person missing something.

505
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: You know. I think everybody goes out and does it

506
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: on their own is maybe not the most functional way

507
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: of of of having people on the same page about

508
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: some of the bigger questions than that opens up. Not

509
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: that people don't have their own good thoughts about this stuff.

510
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: They do, right, but but they're huge thoughts, right, And

511
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: it's not really unless the type of person who's naturally

512
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: drawn to them. You're not going to naturally dig deeper

513
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: and have big moral and ethical self searchings about them

514
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: unless that's fun for you, right, so so so so yeah.

515
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: But but as far as universalism goes, I think we

516
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: do wind up. Uh, most most people who aren't kind

517
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: of really reactionary wind up at the type of universalism.

518
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: And in part I think that's because many people don't aren't,

519
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: including me, aren't really convinced that most of the stuff

520
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: they believe is real anyway. And they say and they say, look,

521
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: the most important part of this, that that that that

522
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: not be real for me is the notion that somebody

523
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: can be condemned for you know, I mean older versions

524
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: of before the I don't know when well all the

525
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: Augustine dealt with this, but you know, the notion that

526
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: somebody who never heard the name of Jesus doesn't get

527
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: to see God because they didn't confess it. I mean,

528
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: it's this run's counter to the whole, to the whole

529
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: God that you're supposed to be teaching there. And so

530
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: that's how I lost that's how I lost my faith

531
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: or whatever. When I was very young, as I just

532
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: was like this whole concept of like, I don't know

533
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: if I if I don't follow the following thing, that

534
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: feels very arbitrary. I like spend eternity and damnation that

535
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: it made me kind of throw away the rest of

536
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: it for a very long time. I don't find a

537
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: lot of biblical support for damnation, is the thing I find.

538
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: I think that Jehovah's witnesses have a nice thing on this.

539
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: They also have several things that are really quite out there.

540
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: But but Jeovah's witnesses will tell you there is no

541
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: fiery hell at all that that's not supported by the Bible,

542
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: and it's not right what what they paint is like, Look,

543
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people are going to go, uh live

544
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: with God forever. Okay, That's such a tiny number, is

545
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: the thing. It's like it seemed big to them at

546
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: the time, But now we have such a broad view

547
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: of history. I mean that means there's no way there's

548
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: any of those hundred forty four thousand left. You have

549
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: to have already had a right. But but beyond that that,

550
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: the people who don't make it will just die and

551
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: cease to exist, not that they will go and be

552
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: punished because eternal punishment is not compatible with This is

553
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: one of the things I go in on. From the

554
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: very beginning of the Bible to the end, God as

555
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: a father figure is a huge idea. Now, historians of

556
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: religion will tell you this is partly because we were

557
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: coming out of a period in which God was a

558
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: mother figure, and it was very important to the patriarchal

559
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: religions to establish clearly we have a father now and

560
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: not a mother. And then the Catholics have, to me

561
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: the most fun way of of reconciling this and understanding

562
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: that the absence of the maternal energy is a real absence,

563
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: you know. And then we get Marian cultson worship, which

564
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: it is great in my view. But but from the

565
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: beginning of the Bible to the end, God is the father.

566
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: The fatherhood of God is so central, right, it's it's

567
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: such a part of God that we sort of we

568
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: begin with that parent to Adam and Eve, and then

569
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: Adam is the father to the human race. Right, all

570
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: this stuff, Well, what kind of father under any circumstances,

571
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: no matter what their child had done, no matter what

572
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: the most monstrous child in the world. I would say, well,

573
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, what you never get to see me again,

574
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: and you suffer eternally. Yeah, there is literally I have

575
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: two children. There is nothing they could do. I don't

576
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: care what they do, right, I mean, obviously I would

577
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: be I would grieve forever if they become hard people,

578
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: you know, and there's no condemned them to an eternity

579
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: of suffering. That's monstrous and any understanding of God that

580
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: would do that is monstrous in my view. It's like

581
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: and I don't think the Bible supports it either. I don't.

582
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: I don't think I certainly don't think Jesus has to say.

583
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's like I think it's a very I

584
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: think it's a keep people in line teaching. I mean,

585
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: I think the same things that you know, the boring

586
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: Satanists think about this is like, you know, but but

587
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: they're right. It's like it's a it's crowd control, right,

588
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: so so you know, and the thing is what they

589
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: would say, this is the Machiavellian view, is that you know, well,

590
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: some people need that kind of crowd control. A lot

591
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: of people do, actually, right, and that is a hard

592
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: you know, that's a hard thing to pars And I

593
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: don't I'm not necessarily an acceptance of it. But it

594
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: feels about right. You know. It's like plenty of people

595
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: are not going to do all the hard work of

596
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: thinking about this stuff, and it will probably be better

597
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: off if they're just told what to do. And there's

598
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: plenty of circumstances in which I am that guy where

599
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: I don't don't don't give me all the complicated stuff

600
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: and let me make my own decision. I'll make a

601
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: poor decision. Tell me what I'm supposed to do, right.

602
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: I think I'm better off that way. You know. There's

603
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: a lot of situations where that's me. So these are

604
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: complicated issues and I forget what they're taking off point

605
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: no sor right. Um. I also don't have a good

606
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: ad segue to go from there, but I have to

607
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: now because of the the constraints of the capitalistic system

608
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: that I live with in well, Friends, Royal pudding, royal

609
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: pudding more food energy than sweet fresh milk. Eat royal

610
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: pudding in your home exactly rich wis sweet foots, flavors, smooths,

611
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: the sield more and more more food energy than sweet

612
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: fresh milk. Royal more more more food energy than sweet

613
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: fresh milk. Welcome back, to the Cool People Who Did

614
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: Cool Stuff podcast and host John Darneil today. Who are

615
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: we talking About's Croatian literature. It works for me, I think, alright,

616
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I think the Christian universalism thing is

617
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because yeah, like I like, I, like

618
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: I said, I kind of I moved away from thinking

619
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: about a lot of these things because I saw how

620
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: transparently there they were designed to systems of control and

621
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: well no, no, but not designed, its utilized by I mean.

622
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,239
Speaker 1: The thing is we're seeing this in in politics right now,

623
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: in real time, that there's a lot of ideas out

624
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: there that might seem good or bad, and they always

625
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: every idea is available to everybody, and the bad guys

626
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: utilize the ones that are effective, right and so. But

627
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: but the notion that they were constructed for that purpose,

628
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: I don't think that's true very rarely. Like even Augustine.

629
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: You know, Augustine has a lot of loathsome stuff, But

630
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: I don't think Augustine was was was trying to construct, uh,

631
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: you know, a method of oppression so much as he

632
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: was passing stuff. The way he thought about it, and

633
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: some of his thoughts are all sucked up. But you know,

634
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: then Augustinian thought can be used to uh, you know,

635
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: deposit this well split between the mind and the body,

636
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: which is another thing right, well, no, I mean like

637
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: and that's why you know, I mean frankly as part

638
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: of why I'm an anarchist, although it, as any other ideology,

639
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: is capable of following into this. But you know, Tolkien's

640
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: whole thing with like you actually must cast the ring

641
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: of power into the fire, you know you can't. Yeah,

642
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: that that's my whole thing. Um. So you know, all

643
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: like nations either you're you, you would envision a world

644
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: in which all the in which we live in smaller communities.

645
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: I would say, like smaller communities that are federated. So

646
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: there's like still organizational systems that are larger, um, but

647
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: the the decision making is more bottom up than top down.

648
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: I'm not like hardline about exactly how I envisioned like

649
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: the entire world living. And so anarchism is like a

650
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: combination of like a way of critiquing power, and then

651
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: it's also a way of thinking about larger societies but

652
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: some of the larger maybe I used to I used

653
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: to idea as an anarchist. I don't know what I

654
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: do now. I think I think anarchism is an extremely

655
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: uh optimistic philosophy. I'm middle aged, and often I mean,

656
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm I'm considering the more optimistic people, you know, But

657
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I would trust people with anarchism

658
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: at this point, you know, yeah, fair enough. I mean

659
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: not that I wouldn't trust anarchists. Anarchists are great, right,

660
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: so I share many of their values. But but but

661
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: I know a lot of my a lot of my

662
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: communist friends who believe in, like some some fairly robust

663
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: state systems of control. I take their point in recent

664
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: years that like sometimes you actually tell people what to do.

665
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: So I think it's like a there's like a a

666
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: balance that isn't like a fifty fifty balance, It's not

667
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: like a little listen a little bit of that. I

668
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 1: think it's a lot of like both. And in terms

669
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: of like like what you're talking about about, um wanting

670
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: to be told what to do by a priest, let's say,

671
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: because because you're not. It's like, there are many times

672
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: that I want to be told what to do because

673
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: that is not where I'm putting my energy. So like,

674
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: on some level there's people who I like would trust

675
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: to develop certain ideas and then be like, Okay, I

676
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: trust you the same as I would trust someone to

677
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: design the wind power that powers the neighborhood I live in.

678
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: Let's say, you know, I there's a this is completely up,

679
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: so we should probably go back to the Diggers. We

680
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: should because all right, let's go to the Diggers. So

681
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 1: what the Diggers actually did? As far as I can tell,

682
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: the first Digger commune was started by five people, which

683
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: does not include this guy's Gerard win Stanley, but it

684
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: does include a guy named William Everard who had been

685
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: a scout in the Parliamentarian Army, who kept getting arrested

686
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: for various rabble rousing, and at one point, uh, he

687
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: stormed a church to declare various religious truths. This is

688
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: the way to go. You gotta be stormy church. Yeah, exactly.

689
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: A lot of the people that I come up in

690
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: the show storm churches. And he gets called a madman constantly.

691
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: All the different accounts of him are like, oh, he's

692
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: just a crazy guy. But he's the he's probably the

693
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 1: founder of the Diggers. He didn't write, so we don't

694
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: know as much about him. But in sixte these five folks,

695
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: including this guy head up to a place called St.

696
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: George's Hill in Surrey, which is a county in the

697
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: middle bottom of England, and they found some enclosed land

698
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: that they felt like should not be enclosed, should be

699
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: commons and so they just made it commons again. They

700
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: started tilling the soil and planting their crops. By the

701
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: end of the week, thirty more people joined them, including

702
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: Gerard Now and basically they said, anyone who wants can

703
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: come here and plant and grow and we'll all share.

704
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: But not that many people came. Various accounts of people

705
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: visiting the communist city. They saw like twelve people, twenty people,

706
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: and they loom really large in history. But this was

707
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: not a mass movement, uh, not compared even to the

708
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: thousand people that Captain Pouch had gotten together fifty years

709
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: or so years earlier. And it's possible that the diggers

710
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: weren't even popular with the locals. This part's hard to parse,

711
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: but it's like one account from the time says the

712
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: first crop of barley they planted was ripped up by

713
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: annoyed locals. And I don't know one way or the

714
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: other whether this meant commoners who were like, ah, these

715
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: fucking hippies get out of here, or whether it was

716
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: the Lord of the manner sending like his people to

717
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: go funck this thing up and drive them off. And

718
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: I can really I see it either way, I don't know.

719
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: So they put out a manifesto which is probably the

720
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: reasoning to it all in the first place, and it's

721
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: written by Girard and it's signed by forty six people

722
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: called a Declaration from the Poor Pressed People of England,

723
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: and yeah, um, their their beliefs are throw open the prisons,

724
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: till the land in common, be pacifists and respect The

725
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: quote Earth our Mother, which I hadn't run across this before,

726
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: as like a medieval Christian thing to say, to talk

727
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: about mother Earth. But um, apparently it's completely normal for

728
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: medieval Christians to refer to the Earth as the mother.

729
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: This is one of my old hobby horses. We we

730
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: tend to think anything that we've heard of originates with us. Yeah,

731
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: and uh and yeah, it's like no ideas like that

732
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: are are very old, and uh, yeah it's a I mean, yeah,

733
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: it's But however, it is also I think fairly radical

734
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: at that point to be talking like that, not because

735
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: it's new, but because because it's not because its old,

736
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways, yeah very good, Yeah

737
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: that's right, and so um. And they were opposed to

738
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: buying and selling in general, they are opposed to buying

739
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: and selling, but in particular selling the earth or products

740
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: of the earth was like really bad. And because the

741
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: earth is the common treasury that we all share. And

742
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: they said they had no need for laws amongst each

743
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: other and that um, basically, whipping people and locking them

744
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: up doesn't make people into better people. So and at

745
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: this point, I really you know there basically Christian anarchist

746
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: pacifists and Gerard win Stanley sums up their pacifism at

747
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: the time, quote, the way to cast out kingly power

748
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: is not to cast it out by the sword, for

749
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: this doth but set him in more power and removes

750
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: him from a weaker to a stronger hand. The only

751
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: way to cast him out is for the people to

752
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: leave him to himself, forsake fighting and all oppression, and

753
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: to live in love towards one another. The power of

754
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: love is the true savior. And then again later he

755
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: goes on to say, like after he's no longer a digger,

756
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: and he's like writing all these laws he's as a

757
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: totally show for husbands to beat their kids and wives

758
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: with a stick. So well, you know, people change, Yeah, yeah, exactly,

759
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: So right now they're all diggers. The local lords write

760
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: letters to the government and they're like, hey, this weird

761
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: thing is happening. Maybe send Calvary. So Calvalry comes general

762
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: the general, this guy fair Fax. He sends Calvary and

763
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,959
Speaker 1: they show up and they talk with two people present

764
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: themselves as leaders, William the wild rabb arouser and Gerard

765
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: the theologian. Um. The cavalry guy writes back to his

766
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 1: general and he's like, yeah, Williams a total madman, and says,

767
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: William and Gerardo present yourself to the General. So they

768
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: present themselves to Fairfax and they refuse to take off

769
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: their hats in the presence of the General because all

770
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: people are equal, and this causes a huge stir and

771
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: then they defend their case basically to this revolutionary leader. William.

772
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: He says he's of the Jewish race at this point,

773
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: and I spent a while trying to figure out what

774
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: he means by this. Um. I can't tell whether he's

775
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: saying I am Jewish, like religiously or culturally or if

776
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: he's saying his family converted recently or more likely, I

777
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: think it's some kind of reference to being descended from

778
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: the original Christians. I don't know. Well, man, that's that's

779
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: a This is a giant question for a lot of

780
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: English thinkers, is what's their connection? And uh, and there's

781
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, William Blake thinks about this stuff,

782
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: and so does the Church of Jesus Christ. The latter

783
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: they saying it's right. They their whole teaching is that

784
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: Jesus came to North America. R. Another whole teaching is

785
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: central that after after the Resurrection, he came over here, right. Uh.

786
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: This is a way that the nations that are Christianized

787
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: grapple with the fact that this is a Sinemitic religion

788
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: from the Middle East, and and well that it becomes

789
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: very powerful religion. So everybody wants it right, but but

790
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: they want to find a way They want to sort

791
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: of claim claiming natively. Yeah, this happens a lot. A

792
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: lot of people are always claiming communities that they may

793
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: may not belong to, right so, but when they see

794
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: that they have some power cultural cachet or something, you

795
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: will often find people say, well, you know, I'm not

796
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: actually one of you, but I'm a lot like you

797
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: can hang you know, and so and and because coalition

798
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: building is powerful, often it's it's in his interest to

799
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: say yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, you're good. Yeah no,

800
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: no that that that that makes sense. Um, And so

801
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: he says, I had a vision that people should go

802
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: up and dig and plant in the earth, and that

803
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: they were peaceful and they wouldn't resist, and they just

804
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: wanted to plant the commons and then everyone would see

805
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: that it's a better way to live. And so Fairfax

806
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: is like, alright, sure, whatever, I'm not dealing with this,

807
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: go away, and Gerard the theologian, uh the writer, He

808
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: goes back to the diggers. But William, the rabble rouser

809
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: whose visions started the whole thing, he kind of just

810
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: wanders off at this point and doesn't go back. He

811
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: starts working in various different fields like like not feels

812
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: like fields of study, but like literal fields where people

813
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: grow things. But one town he shows up in as

814
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: soon as he shows up, people start acting weird, like

815
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: people start walking around in trances and ship as soon

816
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: as he shows up. So he gets accused of witchcraft

817
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: and Eventually he gets thrown in uh Bethleem Royal Hospital,

818
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: which is a psychiatric hospel it's been around for eight

819
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: hundred years, whose reputation is so grim. It's where we

820
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: get the word bedlam. Yeah, and his trail goes dark

821
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: in bedlam. And so the diggers keep digging without their

822
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: their profit. There there visionary founder. But the thing is

823
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: that this land there on, they claim it's commons, but

824
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: someone else claims it's his right. Francis Drake to be specific,

825
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: not the famous slave trader um who also was the

826
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 1: first person's circum navigate the world in a single trip.

827
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: A different Francis Drake. This guy was not much nicer.

828
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: He sents gangs to go beat everyone up, and when

829
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: that didn't work, he burns one of their houses down.

830
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: And finally the diggers all get arrested and put on

831
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: try and they get accused of being ranters. Who will

832
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 1: get into it a little bit. They actually had beef

833
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: with so they were kind of annoyed. It's kind of

834
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: like now, if like they arrested communists and we're like,

835
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: you damn anarchists, you know, they'd be like what the hell?

836
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: Like the communists very angry. Yeah, And so the diggers

837
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: got told if you go back to Francis Drake's land,

838
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: the whole army is going to come. So they move

839
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: on to another enclosure on a different lord's land. The

840
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: new lord does the same ship to them. By April

841
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: sixteen fifty, they're driven out from there too, and the

842
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: trail goes dark for these diggers. Um, I don't think

843
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: they ever got a single harvest out of out of

844
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: their work. And and we mostly hear about this particular

845
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: group because that guy when Stanley, hung out with them,

846
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: and he's the wh who wrote all the pamphlets and ship.

847
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: But they weren't the only group of diggers. Colonies cropped

848
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: up in at least six other towns. And I don't

849
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: think history knows the fate of these colonies, or at

850
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: least I wasn't able to determine it. And my my

851
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: guess is it's about the same. They were probably dispersed

852
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: by this sort of one too punch of legal harassment

853
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: and mob violence. I like to imagine that they like

854
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: went on for a long ast time and just kept

855
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: doing their thing, you know, but they probably didn't. After

856
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: the Diggers, when Stanley goes on and he writes his

857
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: utopia called Utopia, where he lays out all of his

858
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: new beliefs and these aren't really the beliefs of the Diggers.

859
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: There this guy's theories. He says there's two types of governments.

860
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 1: There's monarchies, which are bad, and commonwealth which are good,

861
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: and that if the commonwealth ever starts doing monarchy ship

862
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: it becomes bad. And his commonwealth are this sort of

863
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: strange communism like the Diggers wanted, but with all these

864
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: governmental systems, which is like no longer though, we don't

865
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: need laws amongst ourselves era. And he wrote out all

866
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: of the laws in great detail in his book. And

867
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that people write utopias are doing

868
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: it because they're really excited about like the like engineering

869
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: they've done, the like this is the laws and this

870
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: is how it all works, you know. Yeah, I mean

871
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: I think it's a big question is is how these

872
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: people it this way and what's really going on with them? Yeah? Totally. Well,

873
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: I think you've got a sense of it because his

874
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: very first law and one of the only capital offenses,

875
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: it's a capital crime to be a lawyer. Yeah, things

876
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 1: like that. You hear, that's kind of stuff in Shakespeare too.

877
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: It's a it's pretty it's pretty uh entrenchedingda. We also

878
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: always got to remember what they mean by lawyer is

879
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: different what we mean that lawyers. Just like when you

880
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: were mentioned prisons, we do your prison history. Prison is

881
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: madness today also. But but the nature of prisons back

882
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: then pretty chaotic. It was like a building with a

883
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: lock on it, you know, it's about it. So yeah,

884
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: now that's a good point. I don't I don't really

885
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: think the pen opticon is better. But but but it's like,

886
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: at the same time, it's like if it's just me

887
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: in a room with a bunch of other people who

888
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: have been deemed authorities, that I don't like my chances,

889
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough. Yeah, that actually

890
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: comes up some of the times and some of the

891
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: histories I do, where you know, the political radical just

892
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: gets thrown in the cage with all the other people

893
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: and it goes really badly. Um. Yeah, so some of

894
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: the other laws in this utopia, anyone who hurts anyone

895
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: gets hurt in exactly the same way in return by

896
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: an executioner. So the execution doesn't only kill people. Also,

897
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 1: like you punch someone in the face. The executioner comes

898
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: and punches you in the face, eye for an eye,

899
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: black eye for a black eye, um, except if you

900
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: hit a cop, which he calls overseers. Then you become

901
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: a servant for a year. And the punishment for almost

902
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: everything else is a is servant for a year where

903
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: you are like a slave to the state, and anyone

904
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: who wants can just show up and like the general

905
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 1: pool of like slaves and borrow you for the day

906
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: and some of the other things that get you sent

907
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: to become a servant for a year. If you refuse

908
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: to grow food, um, if you don't learn a trade,

909
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: if you buy or if you buy yoursell land, you

910
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: get executed. If you if you claim to own land,

911
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: then mean words get written on your forehead. You're sit

912
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: in a stool in front of everyone, and then you

913
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: have a year of servitude hiring people for wages that

914
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: gets you a servitude. Anyone who claims to be holy

915
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: but then trades for possessions of the earth gets put

916
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: to death and as a witch. Yeah, that's just ustopia.

917
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to live there. But it's actually probably

918
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: better than Evil England at the time, but it still

919
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,439
Speaker 1: doesn't sound. I mean, he's when guy writes like something

920
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: like this, he sounds to me like he doesn't have

921
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: a lot of interlock euters. Right, it's like most utopias,

922
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: I think Thomas More there's a good job of having

923
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: demonstrated he's been sitting around some tables with some people,

924
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: but most of they don't bear a lot of scrutiny.

925
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: You can ask two or three questions and it starts

926
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: to come apart. Yeah, totally, totally. So after a couple

927
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: of years he so he comes out hard with to

928
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,959
Speaker 1: kill all the lawyers and everyone who buys and sells

929
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: stuff and every wants to share everything. And then a

930
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: couple of years later he does with huge trunk of

931
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: middle class revolutionaries do. He gets given some land by

932
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: his family, his in this case, his father in law,

933
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 1: and then um settles down to join the own stuff

934
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 1: for a living class. He he becomes a Quaker, and

935
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: he ends up going on and moves to London and

936
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: becomes a merchant. Again. That's that's that's that guy. But

937
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: the thing that's really interesting me, right is that you've

938
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: got this like it's a couple dozen people who squats

939
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: some land never actually get to harvest it, and then

940
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: four hundred years later people are still talking about them,

941
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: and like a lot of people still talk about them,

942
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: and they they're the ideas and practices they developed, like

943
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: those are what have echoed. And that's what's interesting to me.

944
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: The greater harvest of their work or whatever. And basically

945
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: just that the smallest movements, which don't seem to accomplish

946
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: their goals sometimes actually can be a huge deal is

947
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 1: really interesting to me. Three years later, in the nineties sixties,

948
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: you get other people called themselves Diggers. This time it's

949
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: an anarchist guerrilla street theater group in San Francisco, and

950
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: they're basically like the Rattis hippies around. They combined the

951
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: underground art scene with the new Left. They're trying to

952
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 1: create a society without capitalism or money. They perform plays

953
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: for free. They distribute free food every day in Golden

954
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: Gate Park. They opened up free stores stores which everything

955
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: in the store is free. They founded free medical clinics.

956
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: They distributed their papers for free. And the way that

957
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: they printed their papers is that they snuck in in

958
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: the middle of the night to the Students for Democratic

959
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: Society offices and used their printers They put on free

960
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: shows with all the like big sixties artists, Grateful Dead

961
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: Jen It's Droplin, Jimi Hendrix. They offered free housing for

962
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: homeless youth. They popularized hidi um in the hippie scene,

963
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: and they popularized whole wheat bread in America. It's wild, yeah, like,

964
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: and it's funny to be because um, I don't actually

965
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: like whole wheat bread because I don't eat bread because

966
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: I want to be healthy. I eat other food to

967
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: be healthy. M yeah, well, I mean the thing is,

968
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: whole grains are better for you than before, and great

969
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: it's a so so yeah, that's the that's the thing.

970
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: But they also, you know, the diggers in San Francisco

971
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: are very much romanticizing uh if it passed, and they're

972
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: doing a thing where you know that I think is

973
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: not without merit. That says, you know, hey, the more

974
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: process your food is, the less healthy it's likely to be.

975
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: And uh no, it's not absolutely true. It's like it's

976
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: got nutrients, and I thing it's got nutrients. It's fine,

977
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: you know, but but I think your body it sort

978
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: of seems, you know, it self evident that like, you know,

979
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: the food that gives your body the least trouble is

980
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: the one that's going to take give you more energy

981
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: than it takes, you know. Yeah, which is why this

982
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: show is sponsored by whole wheat bread that I don't

983
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: even like. You know, John, I've been thinking about whole

984
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: wheat bread and I've been thinking, I don't even like this,

985
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: but I think I'm going to eat it. Let's see,

986
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: this is what you know I've been I was what

987
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: we're talking about, whole wheat bread. Have you considered the

988
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: Roman meal? Yes, friends, Roman Meal, And we are also

989
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: supported by these other advertisers, and we are back from

990
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: those ads, and I hope all of them are from

991
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 1: polesome foods and not terrible things, because sometimes terrible things

992
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: ads come through and we only have retroactive control about

993
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Yep, we live in a hell escape,

994
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: yeah exactly. Um. Yeah, it's it's so interesting to me

995
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 1: that when I didn't realize that one of the biggest

996
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: influences that the Diggers had was on the American diet,

997
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: you know, and the popularizing whole all foods right, not

998
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: the store, and well that was that. The thing is

999
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: that also had They're not the first you know, Uh,

1000
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: what's his name up there, um CTW Post up in

1001
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: I think Michigan. Um, they're all there are all these

1002
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 1: movements that trace back to the time of American Transcendentalism

1003
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: and to the turn of the twentieth century where and

1004
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: they are kind of indivisible from some religious ideas that

1005
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: many of these are more universalist ideas. But but uh,

1006
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: but yes c W. Post and I feel like there's

1007
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: another one in Michigan. But maybe it's all him. And

1008
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: so they have some very sound ideas about nutrition, and

1009
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: they have some very wacky ideas stuff too, you know,

1010
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: because I think some of these people are also into

1011
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 1: like Oregon energy and stuff like like they I mean,

1012
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: you know, I learned about from you always all right,

1013
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: there's a cloud busting is about. I think that guy's

1014
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: an Oregon Guy's kid. I actually don't know that. I

1015
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: don't know it. Well. I learned about learned about organ

1016
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: energy from a band called the Supreme Dicks, rather more

1017
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: obscure musicians from western Massachusetts. Okay, So that to keep

1018
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: talking about these new diggers, they also coined a bunch

1019
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: of radical slogans that have filtered out into the mainstream,

1020
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: such as do your own thing and today is the

1021
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: first day of the rest of your life. And much

1022
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: like how the original Diggers had more than one commune,

1023
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: the new Diggers did too. They operate at least one

1024
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: other chapter in the Lower Asside of Manhattan. And I

1025
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: want to quote from an amazing food historian Ran Awry

1026
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: about these East Coast Diggers from article in Blindfield Journal.

1027
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: The famous Digger stew, which is made daily in huge

1028
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: white enameled pot in a kitchen behind the office, is

1029
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: ladled out free of course, to anyone who wants it,

1030
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 1: every afternoon around five o'clock in Tompkins Square Park. Reads

1031
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: a New Yorker Talk of the Town article from seven

1032
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: about a faction of theater centric anarchist group that made

1033
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: the Lower east Side home in the nineteen sixties. When Clyde,

1034
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: Susan Diego, and Ritchie asked were asked to explain why

1035
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: they are performing these services for the Lower east Side community,

1036
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 1: each repeated the enigmatic Digger motto diggers do. The Diggers

1037
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: saw sharing free food as a way to teach people

1038
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: about their anti capitalist ideals. Um. And I just really

1039
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: like this whole quote because I like, I'd never run

1040
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 1: across this phrase. Diggers do before. But I feel like

1041
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: it connects the spirit that connects these two groups. Because

1042
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: there's a problem. People don't have food, and there's a solution.

1043
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: You get food and you give it to people, And

1044
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: so existing impediments like the enclosure of the commons or

1045
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: the system that the enclosure led to capitalism should just

1046
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: be ignored. Um, which isn't always work, but it's a

1047
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: really fucking cool thing to do anyway. Yeah, yeah, I

1048
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: mean it's something I'm always talking about, Like we live

1049
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: in a time of incredible abundance. There's no reason for

1050
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: anybody to be hungry, you know, and so but the

1051
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: thing you the only thing you really do about that

1052
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 1: is giveaway food. You can't systemically unless you Yep, that's

1053
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: that's the argument for robot state power is like it's

1054
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: hard to conceive of local solutions that result in in,

1055
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: uh in feeding all the people who need food, right,

1056
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 1: but I can conceive of a very giant state apparatus

1057
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: that sees to it, you know, right, Yeah, I mean,

1058
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, my my my cheap excuse or my my

1059
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: my cheap work around is be like, oh well that

1060
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: has handled at a federated level where you know, we

1061
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: distribute the resources to the local groups that are doing

1062
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: that work. Um. But like I don't. I'm not trying

1063
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 1: to be like and that's the structure that everything needs,

1064
00:54:54,800 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And the new fangled Diggers, at least

1065
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: all the history that I found is like, we don't

1066
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: know how they funded all of this. But I would

1067
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: argue that I have a sense of how they funded it,

1068
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: because I'm going to assume they fund it the way

1069
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: that modern anarchists fund it, which is some combination of

1070
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: crime which is primarily selling of drugs and sex work

1071
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: and scams, sympathetic people who have regular jobs, and folks

1072
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: who come from generational wealth. I I don't feel like this,

1073
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: I would say the I would say the latter quality

1074
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: is probably the biggest. Probably you didn't come and hitting

1075
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: up people for money fund fundraising essentially, yeah, exactly, Like

1076
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: it's to me, it's not this huge mystery. They am like, yeah,

1077
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 1: they did it, like everyone does it, you know. Um.

1078
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: And they lasted longer than original Diggers, um, which is

1079
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: sort of amazing because the original Diggers huge in history.

1080
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: Small thing. But I want to talk about another splinter

1081
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 1: off of the Diggers, or rather, these are the people

1082
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: that they got accused of being that they were unhappy

1083
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: that they get called of the ranters. If you combine

1084
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: the sixteen forties Diggers and the nineteen sixties Diggers, you

1085
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: might get the Ranters if if they existed as an

1086
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: actual movement and not just a few writers who sparked

1087
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: a moral panic. Because it's actually hard to be sure, right.

1088
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: One of the writers is this guy named Claxton. He

1089
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: was born Lauras Clarkson in sixteen fifteen. But he was

1090
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: exactly the kind of cool guy to go by one

1091
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: name in this case of variation of his last name,

1092
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,919
Speaker 1: and he somehow managed to evade the like I think

1093
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: he got to pick his own nickname, which is like

1094
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 1: the only time that happens in today's story. And he's

1095
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 1: an itinerant preacher, and he supported the Levelers in their

1096
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 1: fight for the republic, and he spent some time digging

1097
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 1: with the diggers. In sixteen fifty, thirty five years old,

1098
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: he writes a pamphlet called A Single Eye in which

1099
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: he claims there's no such thing as sin, specifically, sin

1100
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: was quote invented by the ruling class to keep the

1101
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: poor in order um, which actually gets to what you

1102
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: were saying about like that might not be why they invented,

1103
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: you know, like yeah, yeah, I don't think there was

1104
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: a meeting. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, the only commandment he

1105
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: respected was thou shalt not kill. He's a pacifist as well.

1106
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,919
Speaker 1: And the ranters Claxton among others, they caused this moral

1107
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: panic and soon how everyone is complaining about how these

1108
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: ranters are running naked through the streets, preaching naked to

1109
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: naked crowds, and they cuss and they drink and they fuck,

1110
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: and they ruined monogamous marriages and they talk about the

1111
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: sexual liberation of women and yeah, yeah, no, yeah, they rule. Um,

1112
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: it's likely that they formed some kind of free love,

1113
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: communitary and counterculture of some size in England in the

1114
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: sixteen fifties that believed in the same Christian socialism and

1115
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: passipism of the Diggers, just plus sex and fun. Uh.

1116
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: They had nude rituals. Some of them were vegetarian. It's

1117
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: hard to know just how far it all went, though,

1118
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: because moral panics are always applied really broadly, right. There

1119
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: might have been thousands of them, There might have been

1120
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: dozens of them. There might have been five of them. Um,

1121
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: left wing historians want to say it was tons of people.

1122
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: Right wing historians like to focus on the possibility that

1123
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: it was mostly a media construction and there was only

1124
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: the writers. My my best guess is that there was

1125
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: at least half a dozen or so of these preachers

1126
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: each with the following of a couple dozen to a

1127
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: couple hundred people, which probably participated to various degrees in

1128
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: the religious de battery. But it was also all played

1129
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: up entirely, you know. But they wrote books, and they

1130
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: got locked up for writing those books, and those books

1131
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: were also burned. And as unpopular as the ranchers were

1132
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: the royalists, they were also unpopular with the parliamentarians, despite

1133
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: having basically all of them served in the war against

1134
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: the king that had just overthrown the king. One of

1135
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: the books they burned was called a Fiery Flying Role

1136
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: by a bees or cop, And I think role means

1137
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: like scroll in this context, so it's like basically like

1138
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: a fiery flying book. Yeah. The main message was that

1139
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: God was going to come down and level some ship himself,

1140
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: specifically cut down the rich and raise up the poor.

1141
00:58:57,560 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: And here's a quote from it that I just liked

1142
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: because I like this kind of ship. How how ye nobles,

1143
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: how honorable, how ye rich men, for the miseries that

1144
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: are coming upon you, for our parts we here that

1145
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: here the apostle preach, will also have all things in common.

1146
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: Neither will call anything that we have our own. We'll

1147
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: eat your bread together in singleness of heart, will break

1148
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 1: bread from house to house. And a beezer had been

1149
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: in jail when he had a religious experience that lasted

1150
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: four days and four nights, and that turned him into

1151
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: a renter. And during this religious experience he heard go

1152
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: up to London, to London, the great city, and right

1153
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 1: right right, we had it to London. And he preached

1154
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: to the poor on the street. Probably he was clothed,

1155
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: probably both him and his audience, And he preached about

1156
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 1: the evils of the rich. And he was known to

1157
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: like hug and kiss beggars, men and women on the street.

1158
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: And I hope the beggars were comfortable with that um.

1159
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: And and they believed that God is in everyone and

1160
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: every living thing. They rejected the dualism of heaven and earth,

1161
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: since God was an all cre Sure's sex was holy,

1162
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: it was communion, it was God making love to God.

1163
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: And they said rogues, thieves, horrors, and cut purses are

1164
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: every whit as good as the great ones of the earth.

1165
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: And the holiest people are those who would clothe and

1166
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: feed the wicked, and at least a couple of them

1167
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: were gay. Sources at the time complained about a ranter

1168
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: who had a quote man wife as well as liaisons

1169
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: with women and the man will interesting. Yeah, no, right,

1170
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 1: Like I want to learn more about I've actually learned

1171
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 1: a little bit about uh women husbands, right, but I

1172
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: haven't learned as much about man wives. So I'm also

1173
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: interested including the wicked. I'm like, that's a you know,

1174
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: now where we're at at the moment, and it's hard

1175
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 1: to you know, the wicked, the wicked or not a

1176
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: third category from the people who you think are are

1177
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: messed up the same people, right, and so so I

1178
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: don't have any any concrete or good ideas about this,

1179
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: but but I'm interested, Like in these radical movements, you

1180
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 1: often find this tendency to want to um, you know,

1181
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: you want to be righteous, as you would put it

1182
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 1: in Christian terms, you know, to what to want, you know,

1183
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 1: to spend time with the sinner, right, with the sinner

1184
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 1: and the wicked. These are abstract, doesn't tell you anything,

1185
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, I say, but but I think about you know,

1186
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: people who you and I would both consider our enemies.

1187
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: Those those are the wicked, right, And then how are

1188
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: you supposed to behave to them according to the renters,

1189
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: according to Christian what you're supposed to give them your stuff? Yeah,

1190
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: it's hard to it's hard to square, right, It's it's

1191
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 1: it's hard to do. I'm reading a Nursula like wind

1192
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: book right now. It's one of my favorite authors, and

1193
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 1: it's a very pacifist book. It's called The Eye of

1194
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: a Heron and it you know, it um you know,

1195
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 1: and it gets that I mean to me, it's like

1196
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is why I am influenced by pacifism.

1197
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: But I am not a pacifist. I actually think it's

1198
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: okay to have enemies. I think what for me, what

1199
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: matters is that there's like a an off road that

1200
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: someone can no longer be my enemy. Know, Like, it's

1201
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: not like hounding someone to the ends of the earth, right,

1202
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: it's like stopping this movement that is trying to bring

1203
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: fascism to the United States or whatever, like you know,

1204
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: Christian nationalism or whatever. These different phrases are right, like,

1205
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 1: like I am interested, I'm okay with presenting them as

1206
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: my enemy. Um, these people that I am dedicated to

1207
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: trying to stop. And yet there's still the like not

1208
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: in not in a dehumanizing way, and not in a

1209
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: way that doesn't allow them to like cease being this

1210
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: Like it's a it's a set of behaviors rather than

1211
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: a rather than a intrinsic quality to a person. Maybe

1212
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: is um Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's that's

1213
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: a big question. Um okay. So the man way, his

1214
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: name is John Oregon, and I just had to get

1215
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: that out there because that is the best name for

1216
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: a seventeenth century gamistic radical that I could possibly think of.

1217
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 1: Pretty good, pretty good. And they don't get to pick

1218
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: their own name, right, they didn't pick the ranters. It

1219
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: was a media's word for anyone who had wild ideas. Um. Yeah,

1220
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: Gan Oregan is totally a stage Yeah, definitely. Um. And

1221
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 1: but one of the one of the pamphlets that they

1222
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 1: put out was called a Justification of the Mad Crew.

1223
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: And so at least this guy wanted to be called

1224
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: the Mad Crew. Um. And Nigel Smith a modern person,

1225
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: not a not a Ranter. In his introduction to a

1226
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: collection of Renter texts, he says that the Ranters believed

1227
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 1: that there can be no afterlife save amer emerging through

1228
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: decomposition of the dead body with glorious nature, and the

1229
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: literally the reason I include this, this is the most

1230
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 1: religious episode I think we've done. But the reason I

1231
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 1: include this is because that's like a core religious belief

1232
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: of mine, Like possibly the only thing that I would

1233
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 1: call a religious belief of mine is that um decomposition

1234
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: of the dead body with glorious nature is like what

1235
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 1: the afterlife is. And so it's just interesting. I've never

1236
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 1: seen it presented in a Christian context, but I don't know.

1237
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: Parliament doesn't like these Ranters much. Right in sixteen fifty

1238
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: they pass a Blasphemy Act and an Adultery Act pretty

1239
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: much designed to root out the Ranters, which also gets

1240
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: applied against the Diggers and anyone Parliament doesn't like. It

1241
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: was this whole culture war thing because nothing ever changes. Basically,

1242
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,919
Speaker 1: the Blasphemy Act made it illegal to say that God

1243
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 1: quote dwells into creature and nowhere else, and it made

1244
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: it illegal to say that swearing and drunkenness aren't sins.

1245
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 1: And the Adultery Act made fornication a capital crime, so

1246
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 1: society picks some group to have a more panic about

1247
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: uses it to justify repression on society well wide level.

1248
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: A few of the writers get rounded up. One fellow

1249
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: had a whole board through his tongue with a hot

1250
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 1: iron for his blasphemy. Some of the ranters said, hey,

1251
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it, and they got out

1252
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: of punishment by you know, repenting or whatever, and a

1253
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 1: few did the whole like, I don't respect this court.

1254
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk to you. A bees Are

1255
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: cop took a differ intact. Whenever people tried to arrest him.

1256
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: He just would run the funk away, Like like one

1257
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 1: time they came to his house and he was like, oh,

1258
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: I left my coat inside. I'll just run inside and

1259
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 1: get my coat really quick, and they're like okay, and

1260
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: then he just runs out the back door and takes off.

1261
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: Eventually they catch him and he gets put in court,

1262
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 1: and he interrupts the court by throwing apples and pears

1263
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: and nutshells at everyone until like basically trying to prove

1264
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: to everyone that he's crazy. He still gets thrown in

1265
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: prison until he writes a I'm sorry letter, and then

1266
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: he does that. He gets out of prison. He changes

1267
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: his name to high Him, which is a Bible reference

1268
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: to a line I am what I am, and then

1269
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 1: he keeps preaching everything for everyone. What I have I

1270
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 1: share freely oppressed. He just stays at it under a

1271
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 1: new name. Claxton, for his part, also was a repent

1272
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: to get out of jail person, and he used to

1273
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: argue with the Diggers um Gerard the Digger was like

1274
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: this rancher guy fox too much, and Claxton was like

1275
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: this Digg says he wants a religion separate from money,

1276
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: but he takes tithes um. And of course while they're

1277
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,439
Speaker 1: busy in fighting between the renters and the Diggers, they're

1278
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 1: both getting hauled up in front of court, and all

1279
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 1: these anti ranterer laws are being passed that effect everyone

1280
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: um and the persecution of the rancher's works, or at

1281
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 1: least it stops them from publishing. Their actual culture carried

1282
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: on for a while behind closed doors, but we lose

1283
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: track of it soon, and it's possible it died out

1284
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: with so many of its spokespeople and profits having moved

1285
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: on or away. UM. I like to imagine that it didn't.

1286
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: I like to imagine that just went underground and became

1287
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: multigenerational and they all took up digging, and then are

1288
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: the same people as the nineteen sixties diggers. And but

1289
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: none of that's true. It probably it probably died out.

1290
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: One more really short sect to tell you about. Have

1291
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: you ever heard of the Muggletonians? Uh words crossed my desk.

1292
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: I have no idea who they are? Yeah, no, I

1293
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: I had never heard of these people. And I was

1294
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 1: just like, oh, the levelers, the diggers, and then the ranters,

1295
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 1: and then it was like and the Muggletonians. So Claxton

1296
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 1: didn't go Quaker like a lot of the ranters did.

1297
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: He went something stranger. At sixteen sixty, he's done being

1298
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 1: a ranter. He becomes a Muggletonian. And they get their

1299
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: name from literally the most British named person to have overlived,

1300
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: lot of Wick Muggleton Pretty good. Yeah, And it got

1301
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: This sect got its start when lot of Wick and

1302
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: his cousin John Reeves went around basically around London being like, hey, buddy,

1303
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: you want to hear the one holy truth? All the

1304
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: others will get you damned to hell fire and they

1305
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 1: were convinced that. Um. They were convicted of denying the

1306
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 1: Holy Trinity, which I guess was a crime at the time,

1307
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 1: and they spent six months in jail. When they got out,

1308
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 1: people had read their pamphlets and they had a following.

1309
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: The Muggletonians believed that Heaven is six miles above the earth,

1310
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 1: and that God is somewhere between five and six ft tall,

1311
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 1: and that he does not give a shit about what

1312
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: happens on earth because there is no incarnate devil, just

1313
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: bad thoughts people have. Um, the diggers are actually on

1314
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 1: this kick to that the devil is the part of

1315
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: ourselves that tries to be selfish. The Muggletonians believe that

1316
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: the soul dies when the body dies, and both will

1317
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 1: be resurrected in the end times. And they also managed

1318
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 1: to do some pretty cool stuff like they didn't believe

1319
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: in the supernatural. So because of that, you couldn't witch

1320
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 1: hunt under their beliefs, right, um, because it's just isn't real,

1321
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: So you just there's no such thing as which is,

1322
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: so don't fucking burn people or whatever, um, which isn't

1323
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: not whatever. They never pointed any leaders, held any conferences

1324
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: or organized themselves. They had no public worship or instruction,

1325
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:33,000
Speaker 1: and despite all of that, they lasted three hundred years.

1326
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 1: The Muggletonians, the last Muggletonian died in at least that

1327
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: we know of, I mean probably um, and yeah, those

1328
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: are this whole time period is overflowing with sex and

1329
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: heresies and people trying out both cool and uncool ideas. Uh.

1330
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: There was another one called the Fifth Monarchists, who followed

1331
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: a parliamentary officer who called himself King Jesus. And it's

1332
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 1: tempted to overthrow Cromwell um, and later trying to over

1333
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: attempted to overthrow King Charles the Second. Um. I mean

1334
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 1: you never know how many of these people had bad

1335
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:13,480
Speaker 1: paint in their houses, you know, Yeah, totally totally Um.

1336
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 1: But that's where we're gonna leave it today. We're not

1337
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 1: we're not gonna talk about the Fifth Monarchist. They're just

1338
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 1: a weird random one liner about someone who followed King Jesus. Yeah. Uh,

1339
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: them's them was the Diggers there they are may they

1340
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:36,280
Speaker 1: be will Yeah? Yeah. So uh let's see, do you have, um,

1341
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 1: either final thoughts or anything you'd like to plug? Oh

1342
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 1: I don't really do concluding thoughts really really really not

1343
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: good at those obviously by by the entire back catalog

1344
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: The Mountain Goes to better understand the subject of today's podcast, Uh,

1345
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 1: we haven't we have a new record, but but but yeah,

1346
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: it's like I always feel like, you know, when you're

1347
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 1: when you're appearing on somebody's thing, that's that you're promotion there. So, however, friends,

1348
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: if you're looking for an album that might energize you

1349
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: in these hard times, it might restore to you the

1350
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 1: energy you felt was lacking in your daily movements, you

1351
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 1: might try bleed Out by the Mountain Go. It's available

1352
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: now on Merge Records and Tapes. Bleed Out the only

1353
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: album that encourages you and all your friends to bleed

1354
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:24,799
Speaker 1: out really moving away from your earlier work. I'm excited

1355
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 1: for people to hear the title track, to be honest,

1356
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: it's it's one of the uh, it's got, it's got.

1357
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 1: It's sort of a gonzo old old energy to it.

1358
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's actually it's the one mellow song on

1359
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: the record, but but ric lyrically it's pretty old school. Okay,

1360
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: I haven't heard it yet, so I'm excited too. Well, yeah,

1361
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: there's it's it's coming soon. It's it's later this month.

1362
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 1: So ah well that's why I haven't heard it yet. Okay,

1363
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: cool Sophie, you have anything to plug, no, just just

1364
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 1: fall at coles on Media on Twitter and Instagram sees

1365
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: see all the shows we have there, um, but including

1366
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:04,640
Speaker 1: this one which is lovely. Yeah. And I have a

1367
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 1: book that's coming out on September called we Won't Be

1368
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 1: Here Tomorrow and its collection of short stories from that

1369
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 1: I've been publishing for the past while, um, some of

1370
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:16,720
Speaker 1: which you might have heard on cool Zone Media on

1371
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: the show It Could Happen Here And it's available for

1372
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 1: pre order now and if you preorder it you get

1373
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 1: an art print um of a he's from the book

1374
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:32,719
Speaker 1: cool and good And we'll be back next week on Monday.

1375
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:38,759
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, until the heat death of the Earth whatever universe.

1376
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1377
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. But more podcasts on cool Zone Media.

1378
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone Media dot com, or check

1379
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts

1380
01:11:54,120 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Didn't Do