Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh
Speaker 1: Clark and there's Charles w Chuck Bryan over there. And
Speaker 1: you put the two of us together. Um, put a
Speaker 1: lit on the jar. Maybe poke some holes in the
Speaker 1: top for air, put a bladed grass in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe some cotton balls. Yep, cotton balls with um what
Speaker 1: do they used to knock knock things out with cotton balls?
Speaker 1: I don't know. From all, I'm sure, uh, and you've
Speaker 1: got stuff you should know. I'm thinking of that scene
Speaker 1: from E. T mm hmm where he brings the frogs
Speaker 1: back to life. Yeah, he liberates the frogs, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think he like kisses a girl because et
Speaker 1: is watching like a soap opera or an old bromance movie.
Speaker 1: I can't remember, but great, it is a good movie.
Speaker 1: I saw it not too long ago, and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is really good. They also like the whole free
Speaker 1: range kids thing. Man, those were the days. Huh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we're on the border of showing that to
Speaker 1: my daughter, who's you know, like five and a half.
Speaker 1: And Emily it's like, you think she's ready for E t.
Speaker 1: I said, well, I mean it, when when do we
Speaker 1: want her to see the saddest movie ever? I mean,
Speaker 1: that's kind of the question. It's just rather heartbreaking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you should show her et the first few minutes of Bambi,
Speaker 1: the first twenty minutes of UP, just all all right,
Speaker 1: all one after each other, and some horribleectually. Oh, she
Speaker 1: can handle the first part of UP. She can handle.
Speaker 1: E t all bat, I can't handle it. I know,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I think the older you get,
Speaker 1: the harder it is, you know. I agreed. Uh So
Speaker 1: I got a little update on something by the way,
Speaker 1: and I posted this to the Stuff you Should Know
Speaker 1: Army page as breaking news yesterday. But I figured the
Speaker 1: world at large should know that as of yesterday, my friend,
Speaker 1: I'm no longer a squatter. Oh congratulations. Wow, then the
Speaker 1: long national nightmares come doing. Yep. We uh walked to
Speaker 1: check up to my County of Residents and buzzed a lady.
Speaker 1: She came down to the lobby and picked it up, right.
Speaker 1: Are you sure it was the lady who needed it? Well, no,
Speaker 1: but she was going to give it to the person
Speaker 1: who did need it. But they're just not allowing people
Speaker 1: in the county buildings. But that was it, So it's done.
Speaker 1: I mean all this came from the squatting started in
Speaker 1: the squatting episode, which was like ten years old at least,
Speaker 1: where you talking about house for fifteen years and you
Speaker 1: had like a little plot of land that you were
Speaker 1: you had been using and as we demonstrated in the episode,
Speaker 1: like you technically had some sort of weird legal claim
Speaker 1: to it. Now, Chuck, I mean, I think I remember saying, like,
Speaker 1: it's not entirely clear that that technique even works. It's
Speaker 1: just if there is a yeah, if there is a
Speaker 1: legal technique that might work, it's that and you proved it,
Speaker 1: right man, that's some serious, long term dedication to that episode. Well,
Speaker 1: I just slight correction. I didn't get it through squatters
Speaker 1: rights though. That really had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1: Oh what did it have to do with It had
Speaker 1: to do with um County red tape and mumbo jumbo
Speaker 1: and some back taxes and you know, it just takes.
Speaker 1: I mean it took. It probably took five years from
Speaker 1: the point where we engaged a real estate lawyer help
Speaker 1: us out with it. Like that's how long it took
Speaker 1: to cut through that red tape. Wow, that's a lot
Speaker 1: of red tape. When you bring a lawyer in to
Speaker 1: get a piece of land you're squatting on, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of red tape around it. Yeah, but the lawyer
Speaker 1: it wasn't like a ton of work, so that didn't
Speaker 1: cost that much money in the back taxes was not
Speaker 1: that much money. So it wasn't like a very expensive affair.
Speaker 1: But we got it in the nick of time too,
Speaker 1: because I just found out that Georgia Power is they're
Speaker 1: bearing power lines in our neighborhood and they had contacted
Speaker 1: the county about that piece of land to like put
Speaker 1: a bunch of equipment on last week. Wow. That is yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1: So no longer a squatter. Wow, everything's coming up chuck today.
Speaker 1: It is no longer a squatter and uh as of
Speaker 1: coming up very soon. But by the time this comes out,
Speaker 1: you will be half a century old as well. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so what happened? Yeah, happy birthday, thank you man. Crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the big five zero that only comes once twice three
Speaker 1: times in a person's life, you know. Yeah, forty was
Speaker 1: kind of like alright, middle age, but fifty is like,
Speaker 1: oh boy, I'm going downhill. How does it feel. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't really care. I'm the same person, but it's
Speaker 1: definitely a number to be reckoned with some mentally. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll ask you in a few years and we'll see
Speaker 1: what you say. Okay, that's fine. I should probably just
Speaker 1: I should probably just fill in the joke grave that
Speaker 1: I dug for you in that squatted land as a
Speaker 1: surprise for your birthday. Now that, now that you say that,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were having any kind of struggle
Speaker 1: with fifty. But no, I'm not. It's not it's fine.
Speaker 1: It's just when you see it on paper, it's like,
Speaker 1: oh boy, okay, who's that. Well that's good because I
Speaker 1: really didn't feel like going to the trouble of filling
Speaker 1: it back in, and when I say, see it on paper,
Speaker 1: I've just I've been writing the number fifty everywhere. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad we had all these talks because it turns
Speaker 1: out that our episode on biophilic design could have been
Speaker 1: a little thin otherwise. Chuck. Yeah, I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: the most robust episode, but it was kind of fell
Speaker 1: between shorty and full length. I think, yeah, no, well,
Speaker 1: we'll make some hay out of it, and it's actually
Speaker 1: one of those things like UM, we talked, we touched
Speaker 1: on it a little bit and our How Environmental Psychology
Speaker 1: Works episode from October of two thousand nineteen, not too
Speaker 1: long ago, because they definitely definitely tied to other UM.
Speaker 1: But biophilic design is certainly its own thing. And if
Speaker 1: you've been to like a restaurant or a hotel or
Speaker 1: something pre pandemic, I should say, UM, and you saw
Speaker 1: that they have like some vines growing on a wall,
Speaker 1: or some succulents growing on a wall, or there's you
Speaker 1: know a lot more natural lighting than there used to be,
Speaker 1: or anything like that. You have been in an area
Speaker 1: where there is some biophilic design going on exactly. And
Speaker 1: we should point out that a lot of this material
Speaker 1: comes from a gentleman. I mean, they're they're a handful
Speaker 1: of people that sort of helped pioneer this idea. And
Speaker 1: one of them is Steven R. Kellert, who is a
Speaker 1: very much a revered professor at Yale of social ecology
Speaker 1: at the Yale School of Forestry, which I didn't even
Speaker 1: know existed at Yale. Yeah, Yale School of Forestry and
Speaker 1: Environmental Studies. And UM I'm trying to see. I think
Speaker 1: he just passed away a few years ago, but November seven,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure the year though, Yeah, that's what's looking for.
Speaker 1: He was definitely one of the champions of biophilic design. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think I get the impression that he was
Speaker 1: one of the ones who really tried to connect science
Speaker 1: to that that type of design UM, because there is like,
Speaker 1: you know, it is extremely trendy right now, like I
Speaker 1: was saying, but there's a real push toward um, you know,
Speaker 1: backing up the assertions that this is actually good for us,
Speaker 1: This type of design is good for us with peer
Speaker 1: reviewed studies, so you know, hats off to them for
Speaker 1: doing that too. Yeah, I think he passed away four
Speaker 1: years ago. But that's a good point. It's one thing
Speaker 1: to say plants are nice in the house, and it's
Speaker 1: another thing to say a design concept can actually improve
Speaker 1: your health and well being, which is what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: I guess we should say what it is, right, Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Biophilic design is based on this idea that we humans
Speaker 1: have evolved, um, have millions and millions of years of
Speaker 1: evolution behind us, and that most of the evolution took
Speaker 1: place in the outdoors or at least in in deep
Speaker 1: connection with nature. And it was only recently. Some people
Speaker 1: mark the First Industrial Revolution in Manchester as the real
Speaker 1: dividing line, but it was only recently that we kind
Speaker 1: of transitioned away from that deep connection with nature that
Speaker 1: took place on like a daily basis, and that as
Speaker 1: a result, we've kind of suffered. And that biophilic design
Speaker 1: seas to kind of say, well, we you know, we're
Speaker 1: already kind of stuck in our buildings, were stuck in
Speaker 1: our work life, but let's figure out how to incorporate
Speaker 1: nature into that that way of living so that we
Speaker 1: can reconnect with it because we really do need it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I've seen a couple of studies that verify this,
Speaker 1: that say that humans generally spend about nine of their
Speaker 1: time indoors now, And like you said, that there was
Speaker 1: as far as that statistic goes, that is very very
Speaker 1: recent if you look at it relative to how long
Speaker 1: humans have been around, you know, yeah, yeah, I mean so,
Speaker 1: so there's this idea that if if we have literally
Speaker 1: evolved to to gain sustenance and an ability to thrive
Speaker 1: from being connected with nature, the converse of that is
Speaker 1: that if you take people away from that and stick
Speaker 1: them into highly artificial built environments like an office building
Speaker 1: eight or ten hours a day, five days a week,
Speaker 1: fifty weeks a year, they're going to start to suffer
Speaker 1: and deteriorate mentally and physically. And that's kind of the
Speaker 1: basis of this concept, is like, okay, if you if
Speaker 1: we've got to work like that, let's work more in
Speaker 1: conjunction with nature. Yeah, And there's a couple of cool
Speaker 1: quotes here from you know, it's it's nothing new that
Speaker 1: people understand that being among nature is, you know, a
Speaker 1: generally sort of more pleasing way to live. But if
Speaker 1: he could read from uh, the great Ralph Waldo Emerson
Speaker 1: almost said thorough you could they were a weird pair,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, which reminds me, I
Speaker 1: think we have a literary correction on today's episode. Oh boy, wow,
Speaker 1: everything's just coming together, it is. But he wrote in
Speaker 1: eight second series essays and this isn't you know, the
Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds, Only as far as the masters of
Speaker 1: the world have called in nature to their aid, can
Speaker 1: they reach the height of magnificence. This is the meaning
Speaker 1: of their hanging gardens Villa's garden, houses, island islands, parks,
Speaker 1: and preserves. So I mean he was kind of straight
Speaker 1: up saying it in the mid eighteen hundreds that like,
Speaker 1: we can only peak as people when we are surrounded
Speaker 1: by nature as much as we can be. And that's
Speaker 1: why even back then, I guess they were trying to
Speaker 1: bring the outside in and Emerson was like, right, guys.
Speaker 1: And for a long time people were like, yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: why would you say that, you're weirdo. And then by
Speaker 1: about the mid twentieth century, Uh, the captains of industry
Speaker 1: at the time said you know what, Yeah, they said,
Speaker 1: nuts to the transcendentalists. We're going a completely opposite direction,
Speaker 1: and we're going to show just how much we've conquered nature.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do nothing but like straight lines and right
Speaker 1: angles and um. You know, when the oil embargo comes
Speaker 1: along in the seventies, we're going to decree by government
Speaker 1: mandate that buildings have to be so tightly sealed that
Speaker 1: not a drop of air can possibly escape them. Uh.
Speaker 1: And everything is going to be totally artificial and controlled,
Speaker 1: including the lighting and everything. Um. And we're going to
Speaker 1: show that we've conquered nature. We don't even need nature.
Speaker 1: And then in very short order, within just a few decades,
Speaker 1: people started to be like, I can't, I can't live
Speaker 1: like this. Um, I didn't see anything directly connected to it,
Speaker 1: but I would hazard a really you know, armchair anecdotal
Speaker 1: gap that you could trace a lot of the weird
Speaker 1: things that people do, like um, mass shootings and office
Speaker 1: spaces and workplaces and things like that to the environment
Speaker 1: a lot more than people have directly have have traced directly,
Speaker 1: I'll bet you could. I agree, it's a total guess,
Speaker 1: but from what I can tell, that seems to be
Speaker 1: largely in conjunction with a lot of the depth that
Speaker 1: people have lent to biophilic design investigations. So that's fine.
Speaker 1: I think it could be a factor for sure. Uh.
Speaker 1: There was another gentleman the sixties named Eric from that
Speaker 1: sort of introduced in the you know, twentieth century this
Speaker 1: idea of biophilia. But I think it was Edward O.
Speaker 1: Wilson who he's kind of known as the you know,
Speaker 1: the twenty one century Darwin. He's a biologist and a
Speaker 1: writer and a philosopher and an aunt specialist. But he
Speaker 1: wrote a book in nineteen four called biophila philia, and
Speaker 1: I think that was where I think it's biophilia. I
Speaker 1: didn't see an eye in that case, but I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure it's okay. Sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean it
Speaker 1: correct well necessarily I know that know it may be,
Speaker 1: but either way, that was I think. I think he
Speaker 1: was the person who coined the term. That's the first
Speaker 1: use of it I actually saw of that word. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's biophilia, like for love of life, for love of
Speaker 1: living things basically. And I think Edward O. Wilson deserves
Speaker 1: his own episode. He was an interesting dude um as
Speaker 1: a boy, Chuck. I read an anecdote about him. As
Speaker 1: a boy. He happened to be living in like I think,
Speaker 1: around New Orleans when the first fire ants showed up
Speaker 1: to North America. They washed ashore somehow, I think from
Speaker 1: ballast or something like that, from a ship's a ship's ballast.
Speaker 1: And as like an eleven year old boy, he was
Speaker 1: smart enough to recognize that they were something new or
Speaker 1: different and describe them scientifically. I think he was the
Speaker 1: first person to describe your ants in North America as
Speaker 1: an eleven year old kid, I mean, if your specialty
Speaker 1: in your life, I mean, you had a lot of passions,
Speaker 1: but if your main life fashion is ants, then you're
Speaker 1: pretty cool in my book. Ye. So this whole theory
Speaker 1: of biophilia basically says what we were saying. What biophilic
Speaker 1: design is based on, that that humans evolved to get
Speaker 1: their cues and their happiness and their well being and
Speaker 1: our our ability to thrive from our natural settings UM,
Speaker 1: and that we just have like a deep need to
Speaker 1: connect with nature, and that when we don't, bad things
Speaker 1: can happen basically to our well being, even things we
Speaker 1: don't necessarily put our finger on as being the result
Speaker 1: of not being connected to nature. But it's still it
Speaker 1: still is, it's still what the underlying thing is. And
Speaker 1: apparently biophilic design, as far as architecture and interior design go, UM,
Speaker 1: it finds its roots a little more even even more
Speaker 1: recently than UM than Edward or wils And it actually
Speaker 1: comes out of the nineties when there was a movement
Speaker 1: to change zoo enclosures to make them more naturally that
Speaker 1: that's that's where this whole movement of UM living plant
Speaker 1: walls at your local Hyatt hotel lobby comes from zoo enclosures,
Speaker 1: which is really kind of eye opening when you realize
Speaker 1: that's the basis of it. I think that's a great
Speaker 1: place for a medium cliffhanger. Okay, I'll take medium today.
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be right back after this. Alright, So
Speaker 1: medium cliffhanger, you introduce the idea that it was really
Speaker 1: in the nineties when um they started to redo zoo
Speaker 1: and closures where this idea for humans sprung up. And
Speaker 1: I guess the only cliffhang areas who kind of helped
Speaker 1: lead that charge. And it's a psychologist name Judith here Wagon.
Speaker 1: I would say here Wagan, but uh, in America, it's
Speaker 1: probably here Wagon. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. At the at
Speaker 1: the Seattle Zoo, right, Yeah, she was a graduate student,
Speaker 1: and this was I can't believe this was the nineties
Speaker 1: and not the sixties, but I guess it took a
Speaker 1: while before we started saying and this wasn't every zoo,
Speaker 1: but there were still a lot of zoos then that
Speaker 1: you know, would keep a gorilla and a monkey in
Speaker 1: a in a cage. And they sat up and people
Speaker 1: like Judah said, you know what, why don't we make
Speaker 1: this more like their habitat because they're experiencing zookosis they're fighting,
Speaker 1: they're not social, they're not reproducing. That's a big problem.
Speaker 1: And out of that was born the same idea for humans,
Speaker 1: which is funny that it took so long from the
Speaker 1: nineties to kind of really take hold more with humans
Speaker 1: because we called it inhumane for animals, but for us.
Speaker 1: I guess it was just fine. Maybe they just didn't
Speaker 1: see the connection. Yeah, I suppose they didn't, because the
Speaker 1: way that they changed the zoo animals enclosures for the
Speaker 1: better was to make them much more like their natural habitat.
Speaker 1: And you know, the animals that live at the zoo
Speaker 1: are far more recently removed from their natural habitats, so
Speaker 1: we can imagine them in a grassland with some trees
Speaker 1: like a savannah, or living among antelope or something like that.
Speaker 1: All of these techniques that they brought together to make
Speaker 1: their there the places where they lived at zoos a
Speaker 1: lot more like the ecosystems that they lived in um
Speaker 1: back home. UM. When you when you think of humans,
Speaker 1: you don't think of us living on savannahs or grasslands.
Speaker 1: But that's the very basis of this idea, this theory
Speaker 1: of biophilia, is that that's where we evolved on the savannah,
Speaker 1: these big open grassy meadows with lots of trees and
Speaker 1: probably some water somewhere trickling by just basically everything that
Speaker 1: any human alive thinks of as an idyllic outdoor place.
Speaker 1: That that's the kind of setting that we evolved in,
Speaker 1: and that that's the kind of habitat that we need
Speaker 1: to interact with two just as much as zoo animals does.
Speaker 1: And it's like our technology made us forget that we're animals.
Speaker 1: What happened, you know what I'm saying, Like we we
Speaker 1: lost that memory, And so I think that's why it
Speaker 1: wasn't the opposite like, oh, we need to make a
Speaker 1: better habitat for humans and then make it for zoo animals.
Speaker 1: It was the opposite way around, because we don't think
Speaker 1: of ourselves as as animals any longer. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: we thought our natural habitat is the building, you know exactly.
Speaker 1: So it goes to step further though, Like it's much
Speaker 1: more than just put in some plants or a fountain
Speaker 1: that makes a nice trickling sound. They really want to
Speaker 1: get into sort of the evolutionary aspect of the whole thing,
Speaker 1: and that, uh, if it was a benefit evolutionarily over
Speaker 1: time over the millennia. Then that's what's going to contribute
Speaker 1: to the actual health and well being. So it can't
Speaker 1: be It had to be an actual thing that really
Speaker 1: improved us for you know, thousands or millions of years,
Speaker 1: not just something that maybe went away like or like
Speaker 1: a desert habitat or something like that. It had to
Speaker 1: be something in order to you know, for the science
Speaker 1: to work, and we'll get to that, something that really
Speaker 1: contributed as we evolved to our well being. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: like again we come back to that savannah hypothesis which um,
Speaker 1: which means that if you're designing something that kind of
Speaker 1: seeks to emulate a savannah, well, there's lots of high
Speaker 1: open spaces, so you might have like a really soaring atrium,
Speaker 1: lots of trees that you can just put some trees
Speaker 1: into that atrium. Again, a little bit of a water feature. Um.
Speaker 1: One of the other big things that's kind of like
Speaker 1: a foundation of biophilic design is it's like you're saying
Speaker 1: you can just put a water feature in and put
Speaker 1: a tree in and call it a day. Like there
Speaker 1: actually needs to be thought into how these things interact
Speaker 1: and form a cohesive whole. You know, you don't you
Speaker 1: you want to see the forest, not the trees when
Speaker 1: you're creating biophilic design, and that that they kind of
Speaker 1: have to to fit together correctly in an intuitive way
Speaker 1: or else that in eight sense that evolved in the savannah,
Speaker 1: that's lodged in all of our brains. Well, no, like
Speaker 1: this is fake and it probably won't have a benefit
Speaker 1: for us, and it might even have a negative benefit
Speaker 1: if it's not done correctly. Yeah, Like the idea is
Speaker 1: to create an indoor ecosystem that sort of mimics the
Speaker 1: outdoors in a lot of ways. Like the the it's bigger,
Speaker 1: the whole is bigger than the sum of its part.
Speaker 1: If you really want the individual to have a genuine,
Speaker 1: you know, improvement in their health and well being. And
Speaker 1: like I said, not just hey, this bank put a
Speaker 1: palm tree in the corner, right, isn't it? Isn't it
Speaker 1: nice to look at? Yeah? But I mean that's something.
Speaker 1: It's better than nothing. But I think the fact that
Speaker 1: seeing a potted plant in a place like a bank,
Speaker 1: even back in the mid century was not weird or jarring,
Speaker 1: like it just looked like, yeah, of course you would
Speaker 1: do that. There is this kind of like early trace
Speaker 1: evidence of like this kind of like a cry for help, like, hey,
Speaker 1: we we need something, We need something natural in here. Um,
Speaker 1: even a fake potted plant to fool us into thinking
Speaker 1: that that there's some sort of nature here. But yeah,
Speaker 1: biophilic design basically says, forget your potted plant, Like, we
Speaker 1: need like a whole planning, whole cropping, a whole little
Speaker 1: um like a garden, like a glade, something that that
Speaker 1: looks natural, not just a single plant in a pot
Speaker 1: in a corner. That's not good enough. Yeah, and sort
Speaker 1: of one of the third tenants is that you have
Speaker 1: to kind of engage and interact with this. Uh, there's
Speaker 1: the idea that biophilia is what's known as a weak
Speaker 1: biological tendency instead of a hardwired in and that means
Speaker 1: if it's a weak one, that means that you gotta
Speaker 1: work on it and it has to be nurtured. And
Speaker 1: you know, maybe this could be employed like instead of Uh,
Speaker 1: a plant wall is very nice, but what's even better
Speaker 1: is a hallway lined with plants that you have to
Speaker 1: literally walk through and interact with. Yeah. Like, the idea
Speaker 1: behind this kind of foundational concept is that if you're
Speaker 1: really creating a biophilically designed UM workplace for your employees.
Speaker 1: UM putting you know, everything you got into the foyer
Speaker 1: or the atrium or where the reception desk is. It's
Speaker 1: gonna wow the people who come through the doors, but
Speaker 1: when they pass through, they're entering just a normal office
Speaker 1: and it loses all of its impact. Like that receptionist
Speaker 1: is gonna be working like gangbusters and probably have the
Speaker 1: best life they possibly could, but everybody else who works there,
Speaker 1: who just passes through the lobby is not going to
Speaker 1: really benefit from it. It needs to be kind of
Speaker 1: constant and UM. It can be ephemeral, like it can
Speaker 1: be kind of fleeting or passing, but there needs to
Speaker 1: be like the constant possibility of fleeting and ephemeral contact
Speaker 1: with nature, so that over the course of an entire
Speaker 1: day it was virtually constant. It just came in different
Speaker 1: forms that were kind of fleeting. A good example of
Speaker 1: this is like, UM, the shadows of something changing in
Speaker 1: the office space as the day progresses. That's ephemeral, that's fleeting,
Speaker 1: but UM, there's still shadows even though they're in different places,
Speaker 1: in different sizes and shapes and angles throughout the day.
Speaker 1: The shadows are still there all day, and but they change,
Speaker 1: and that we feed on. That is kind of the
Speaker 1: basis of biophilic design, that that has an effect on
Speaker 1: us a positive one, to be able to see that
Speaker 1: during the day. Yeah, And I think the idea too
Speaker 1: is there's also you know, if you are surrounded by
Speaker 1: or in a in a building that employs biophilic design,
Speaker 1: you're you're developing an emotional attachment to a place you
Speaker 1: might not ordinarily develop an attachment to. And I think
Speaker 1: anyone who's ever walked through, uh, just a sort of
Speaker 1: a standard gross office like we used to work in,
Speaker 1: like our office. We haven't been in it for a while,
Speaker 1: but it's kind of cool because we have this huge,
Speaker 1: huge bank of windows, which is nice, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people have plants, which is nice. But we've been
Speaker 1: some bad offices over the years, so bad like just
Speaker 1: straight nothing but marble, like barely any plants. It's just
Speaker 1: bad news. And then like the actual offices were just
Speaker 1: divided up with like high high sight lines that you
Speaker 1: have to like kind of stand on your tiptoes. Just
Speaker 1: bad news for sure, for sure. So walking through something
Speaker 1: like that, and then the experience you have emotionally of
Speaker 1: when you're like at a botanical garden and you're walking
Speaker 1: through a greenhouse. It's just I mean, I don't maybe
Speaker 1: there are people that don't like things like that, but
Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine some body walking through one of
Speaker 1: these lush, sort of humid greenhouses that's just cut, you know,
Speaker 1: the good ones. It's it's just packed with stuff everywhere,
Speaker 1: and you hear water running and like plants are brushing
Speaker 1: up against you as you move. I don't know many
Speaker 1: people would just be like, no, thanks, yea out there sure,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there are people out there, and
Speaker 1: there's plenty people that don't like to go camping or
Speaker 1: be in the woods and stuff like that, but I'd
Speaker 1: say even a lot of those people would enjoy a
Speaker 1: greenhouse experience, right yeah, or no, or at the very
Speaker 1: least would enjoy prefer a lobby that has that's well
Speaker 1: done with biophilic designed to one that's just sterile. And
Speaker 1: and you know, Norwegian like, I think they're kind of
Speaker 1: leading the charge on a lot of this. Yeah, weirdly
Speaker 1: they are, for sure, but check so, I mean we
Speaker 1: kind of reach now the reason why a lot of
Speaker 1: the big tech companies are leading the way and working
Speaker 1: with UM architect your firms and design firms that are
Speaker 1: pushing biophilic design on them. Is that they're basically trying
Speaker 1: to subliminally trick you into liking work, right Like you're
Speaker 1: like they want you to form a place attachment to
Speaker 1: their office so that you stay there more, you have
Speaker 1: fewer sick days, you do more while you're there, you
Speaker 1: just enjoy yourself there. And there's really kind of two
Speaker 1: ways of looking at big corporations getting into biophilic design.
Speaker 1: And one is that you're you're being manipulated to increase
Speaker 1: your productivity, like deep, deeply manipulated on an evolutionary almost
Speaker 1: genetic level, or that you have to be at work anyway,
Speaker 1: and they're trying to make it as pleasant as possible
Speaker 1: for you. I guess it just depends on whether you're
Speaker 1: like a glass half full or half empty kind of person.
Speaker 1: But those are the two interpretations of huge companies getting
Speaker 1: into biophilic design. And and I'm all of them have
Speaker 1: like UM, Facebook's campus in Menlo Park, the Googleplex, UM
Speaker 1: Microsoft's office and Redmond uh Coppertino, Apple's big old Donut UFO,
Speaker 1: all of them have the Amazon's offices. I think they're
Speaker 1: called Bezos's Balls downtown in Seattle. That's what they call
Speaker 1: them that I read. Um, it proved me wrong. Seattle
Speaker 1: proved me wrong. Uh. The all of them are designed
Speaker 1: with biophilic design right now. Yeah, I think you'd have
Speaker 1: to be fairly cynical when an effort is made to
Speaker 1: bring a more calming, healthful environment to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I see what they're doing here. They're just manipulating me.
Speaker 1: I see. Yeah, for real, who would think that? Who
Speaker 1: would think that way? You're not like that at all. Right,
Speaker 1: So some of the ways that you can, uh, I
Speaker 1: mean they're sort of indirect and direct ways of doing this.
Speaker 1: Obviously we talked about plants. Um. Light is a big,
Speaker 1: big one, UM, and that that first office we had
Speaker 1: years ago in Buckhead, I think that's what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Our cubicle walls were so high it was like it
Speaker 1: was stifling and no light natural light would come in.
Speaker 1: I think there were like there were some offices on
Speaker 1: the outside, so if you had an office, maybe you
Speaker 1: had a window, but otherwise you were just counting on
Speaker 1: fluorescent lights above your head, which are the worst. I
Speaker 1: think we should do a shorty unfluorescent lighting at some point.
Speaker 1: It would be kind of cool. But water features are
Speaker 1: always great, the sounds of running water, the visual appeal
Speaker 1: of running water. I agree, But I feel like there
Speaker 1: could be too much. Like I think that the sound
Speaker 1: of water in particular is supposed to be something that
Speaker 1: we here in passing or at a distance. Like I
Speaker 1: think if you just heard water trickling all day long,
Speaker 1: kind of loudly, it might drive you a little bit crazy,
Speaker 1: you think, I think. So that's just my take on it.
Speaker 1: I would dig it, but you have to you know,
Speaker 1: you might just have to be too much right now,
Speaker 1: It's definitely that's definitely part of it. But now, I like,
Speaker 1: I love the sound of water. Two I find extremely relaxing.
Speaker 1: I just think it could be overdone, is what I mean. Alright,
Speaker 1: I hear you. Um, Like these are sort of the obvious,
Speaker 1: real natural things that you can bring in, you know,
Speaker 1: open windows occasionally to get like real fresh air in there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the things I saw, Chuck was was um
Speaker 1: natural ventilation. And I'm sorry, Like I this is a
Speaker 1: bit of a thing to me, Like, I am totally
Speaker 1: fascinated by how this this fits into this. What do
Speaker 1: you mean So the idea that that you know, the
Speaker 1: buildings of yesteryear, unfortunately that a lot of us still
Speaker 1: work in, were sealed off purposely to make them more
Speaker 1: energy efficient, but that all of the air that passes
Speaker 1: through is very filtered and artificial and there's nothing coming
Speaker 1: in from the outside. Biophilic design says, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: don't do that, Like go back to natural ventilation. Like
Speaker 1: you're gonna have lower energy costs, You're gonna have pleasant
Speaker 1: breezes blowing through, You're gonna have change is in temperature
Speaker 1: that are much more natural, which sounds good, but in practice,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, what about your what about your computer hardware?
Speaker 1: There's a lot of humidity in the air too, right,
Speaker 1: what effect is that can have on all of your
Speaker 1: employees computers or the the servers in the basement or whatever.
Speaker 1: Um or you know, what about when it's cold out
Speaker 1: do you leave the doors open? Like what do you
Speaker 1: do about it during the winter time? And then um
Speaker 1: also in the spring? What about your employees who have
Speaker 1: seasonal allergies? So like I have, Like I totally get
Speaker 1: the need for that, but that is the one part
Speaker 1: of biophilic design that. I'm like, this is the thing
Speaker 1: that's most at odds with with modern office buildings, the air,
Speaker 1: like like natural air versus you know, artificially treated air.
Speaker 1: I don't know how they're figuring that out, and I
Speaker 1: couldn't find a lot on it, but I'm fascinated by
Speaker 1: that one. I wonder if it's more like it's not
Speaker 1: completely one or the other. Like you have your h
Speaker 1: VEC system and everything still, but when the weather agrees,
Speaker 1: you can open your windows like they're not hermetically sealed
Speaker 1: like most offices. Yeah, okay, I saw that there was
Speaker 1: a it's called a mixed system where you're using both
Speaker 1: and yeah, it depends on wind. But but then you know,
Speaker 1: if it's really cold out or whatever, does everybody's have
Speaker 1: to be like it's super artificial inside for this the
Speaker 1: next few months and then maybe it'll get nice again.
Speaker 1: I'm just there's gotta be a way to conquer that,
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, So, I mean to me, what fascinates
Speaker 1: uh me about this whole thing is I've always been
Speaker 1: a nature guy, so it's it's obvious to bring in
Speaker 1: plants and water and stuff like that. I think the
Speaker 1: more indirect things are really fascinating. Uh. There's this place
Speaker 1: in Portugal. It's I think there are a bunch of them.
Speaker 1: They're called Second Home. It's a coworking space, but this
Speaker 1: one in Portugal specifically is well known for having more
Speaker 1: than two thousand plants. So that's sort of the obvious one.
Speaker 1: But they also just in their design, they don't have
Speaker 1: any straight lines in the office because there are no
Speaker 1: straight lines in nature rarely. Uh. They don't have matching
Speaker 1: uh office chairs and desks and things like that because
Speaker 1: there's variety of nature, so they'll just have like just
Speaker 1: different chairs everywhere. And like actual they call it fractal
Speaker 1: complexity that you find in nature in different shapes of things. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's the kind of thing where
Speaker 1: someone would walk in and say, look at all these
Speaker 1: different office chairs, I feel so alive. But I think
Speaker 1: it's just little things like that kind of contribute to
Speaker 1: the whole as working as a part of that you know,
Speaker 1: emotional and I guess mental ecosystem. Yes, that's exactly the point.
Speaker 1: So like, um, what is the dude's name who passed? Who? Uh? Kellert? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Dr Keller. It was kind of breaking it down into
Speaker 1: two things one's direct experience of nature, and then the
Speaker 1: stuff you're talking about falls under the umbrella of indirect
Speaker 1: experience of nature, kind of like um being worked on
Speaker 1: subliminally by things like curve shapes and fractal patterns, or
Speaker 1: using like stone stone flooring overlight, highly artificial UM carpet
Speaker 1: or something like that, or granite countertops is a way
Speaker 1: of evoking nature because it is still granted, it's just
Speaker 1: that we've kind of um carved it into the shape
Speaker 1: that we that isn't natural. There's lots of straight lines,
Speaker 1: usually with a granite countertop, but it's still a natural material.
Speaker 1: It's still evokes nature. UM. There's also like using artificial
Speaker 1: light that's designed to kind of change throughout the course
Speaker 1: of the day. UM. That's another way to kind of
Speaker 1: indirectly experienced nature, just kind of using suggestions and tricks.
Speaker 1: This stuff you wouldn't put your finger on and be
Speaker 1: like nature, but it's still having that biophilic impact on you.
Speaker 1: Although a lot of what I saw as far as
Speaker 1: researching is that some of the leaders in this space
Speaker 1: kind of say, like you know, nuts to artificial light,
Speaker 1: get as much like real light in the space as
Speaker 1: you possibly can from what I saw that was light.
Speaker 1: That was like the number one thing is is natural light,
Speaker 1: like lighting natural light in Yeah. The other thing that
Speaker 1: I think is really cool is wayfinding, like how a
Speaker 1: building is laid out as far as you know. Usually
Speaker 1: it's like you're walking down a straight hall, you turn
Speaker 1: left to go down another straight hall. But if they
Speaker 1: can mimic nature a little bit more and have hallways
Speaker 1: that are a little more meandering. Um, I mean, you
Speaker 1: gotta get where you need to go, sure, but if
Speaker 1: it's done in a more natural way, like meander to
Speaker 1: a central point which might be the oasis or something
Speaker 1: like that, I think that's a really cool way to
Speaker 1: bring it out. Yeah, we talked a lot about that
Speaker 1: in the Environmental Psychology episode, but we we talked about
Speaker 1: it from a different perspective where they would use tricks
Speaker 1: and techniques to keep you on a path rather than
Speaker 1: letting you wander off to places you weren't supposed to be.
Speaker 1: That was part of of wayfinding for sure. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a fascinating topic period. Like whenever I go to
Speaker 1: a like a hospital that's really smartly laid out and
Speaker 1: you can really Hospitals are notorious for people getting lost
Speaker 1: and not be able to find where you need to go,
Speaker 1: and if you go to one that has done it right,
Speaker 1: it's it's really cool to think about how much effort
Speaker 1: goes into that. Yeah. Yeah, I love that too. That
Speaker 1: was one of my favorite parts of that episode. And
Speaker 1: I like this too. But it's just with biophilic design.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, take a left by the mud
Speaker 1: pools and then you know, when you run into the
Speaker 1: pack of wild boars, turned back around because you've gone
Speaker 1: too far. Yeah, go by the mud pools and say
Speaker 1: hi to Gary from a county. He sits in those
Speaker 1: crazy for the mud pools. We can never get Gary
Speaker 1: out of here. Should we take a break and talk
Speaker 1: about the science. Uh? I, I'm just trying to see
Speaker 1: if I had anymore because there was a lot of
Speaker 1: indirect and direct experiences of nature. But yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: that's it. Okay, sure, In other words, let's do it. Oh,
Speaker 1: I did have one chuck now that we're back. Um.
Speaker 1: It was one of the direct experiences of nature from
Speaker 1: Dr Kellert's was weather. So my idea for biophilic design
Speaker 1: would be to put to paste cotton balls onto a
Speaker 1: piece of construction paper. That's cut out in the shape
Speaker 1: of a cloud. Put those on the walls here there,
Speaker 1: that's the thing that you were trying to think of. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was the thing I decided was worth restating after
Speaker 1: the break. No, man, I love a little cotton ball clouds.
Speaker 1: Love them. Plus they're cotton too, so it's even more
Speaker 1: natural because it's a natural material evoking a different part
Speaker 1: of nature. It's you want to make your employees headspin
Speaker 1: with productivity, Make cotton ball clouds and put those on
Speaker 1: the wall and you could use it as a little
Speaker 1: pillow during your break time. Very nice. So science, Um,
Speaker 1: this is all well and good and can be kind
Speaker 1: of hippie dippy if you think about it. But is
Speaker 1: there actual science behind this? And it appears that there
Speaker 1: is in most cases there's There's been a lot of studies. Um.
Speaker 1: I found a couple a couple of different ones, not
Speaker 1: in this article, but one was in twenty nineteen and Denmark.
Speaker 1: Kids who had been exposed to greenery had less mental
Speaker 1: health problems later in life. There were a couple of
Speaker 1: studies in Norway that found that subjects who did reading
Speaker 1: an attention based tasks surrounded by plants and greenery improve
Speaker 1: their scores over time. And there's a lot of talk about,
Speaker 1: um what's called attention restoration theory, which is if you're
Speaker 1: staring at a screen all day, even taking a minute
Speaker 1: to go stare out a window at a tree can
Speaker 1: restore you a little bit. I thought of a really
Speaker 1: good analogy for this, if I do say so myself.
Speaker 1: You know those grounding rods that we put into the
Speaker 1: ground outside of our houses and all of our our
Speaker 1: electrical appliances are connected to it, and it allows we
Speaker 1: we discharge the excess electricity into the ground where it dissipates.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of what nature does to us,
Speaker 1: whether it's gazing out a window or going out in
Speaker 1: the nature. Um, we're like un unburdening ourselves with all
Speaker 1: of the just crud that has gathered up and the
Speaker 1: tension that's gathered from staring at that screen or thinking
Speaker 1: or over exerting ourselves. We like are able to disperse
Speaker 1: it into nature, and nature is a big enough reservoir
Speaker 1: to accept it and we feel better afterward. I think
Speaker 1: that's kind of close to what we're doing. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: wonder if we're ever going to find a mechanism for
Speaker 1: how that actually happens, or is it the opposite where
Speaker 1: we're actually depleted and then seeing nature recharges us. It's
Speaker 1: you know, it's two different, two different versions. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the science does back it up. There was
Speaker 1: another study from Northwestern and that found that people who
Speaker 1: are exposed to natural light more during the workday got
Speaker 1: an additional forty six minutes of sleep at night. So
Speaker 1: it's not just like improved work productivity and happy feelings,
Speaker 1: it's like you're getting solid sleep at night. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: I mean like there's just unequivally, unequivocally a lot of
Speaker 1: science to back it up, including on a physiological level,
Speaker 1: things like, um, there we we have lower levels of cortisol,
Speaker 1: our heart rates are lowered. UM. We we just generally
Speaker 1: are physically better off. Um when we have things like
Speaker 1: a good view of nature or where there's breezes or
Speaker 1: where especially I saw um, where we're exposed to even
Speaker 1: indirect sunlight throughout the day. That has an enormous impact
Speaker 1: on on our sense of well being. Uh, as far
Speaker 1: as things like anxiety and depression go as well. Um.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of science to back it up.
Speaker 1: It's it's what I saw kind of how Keller put
Speaker 1: it is. There seems to be this um like architecture
Speaker 1: and design wants to figure out how to take this
Speaker 1: idea and package it so that they can just sell
Speaker 1: it everywhere as easy as possible. That's just true with
Speaker 1: all industry and business. Whenever somebody comes up with a
Speaker 1: really good idea, they want to figure out how to
Speaker 1: mass produce it. It's the American way, right um and
Speaker 1: Keller it was basically saying like there's a real um
Speaker 1: danger in basically laying this out and it's ablishing exactly
Speaker 1: how to do this because people will just kind of
Speaker 1: co modify, package it and it will lose it Like
Speaker 1: that doesn't that's not how biophilic design actually works. Instead,
Speaker 1: here are the principles of it. Figure out how to
Speaker 1: make it work in harmony with a lot of what's
Speaker 1: called informational richness. So there's a lot going on, but
Speaker 1: not too much because if it's too busy, you're too noisy,
Speaker 1: then now you've got problems because you have a bunch
Speaker 1: of distracted employees um or a bunch of distracted customers. Whoever,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of balance. But these guys who kind
Speaker 1: of created this field and then again backed it up
Speaker 1: with science, kind of laid out the foundation of it
Speaker 1: and said, now it's up to you, the designer, to
Speaker 1: figure it out on each different case. Don't try to
Speaker 1: package it because you're going to lose this. Uh if
Speaker 1: we if we try to co modify it. Interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it is. But at the same time it's
Speaker 1: it's a really good um. It was very wise of
Speaker 1: him to include that, you know. Yeah, there was one
Speaker 1: more study I wanted to mention, because it's not just
Speaker 1: in the workplace, but recuperating in the hospital is actually
Speaker 1: this is where it can really really help people. Um
Speaker 1: In the National Institutes of Health published a study that
Speaker 1: found that people recuperating after surgery had shorter stays in
Speaker 1: the hospital overall and needed less pain meds, even if
Speaker 1: just simply they had a garden view as opposed to
Speaker 1: some other credit view like a brick wall or a
Speaker 1: parking lot. Yeah, Roger ulric Um, we talked him in
Speaker 1: the Environmental Psychology episode two, I think because that was
Speaker 1: like that basically laid the groundwork for the science backing
Speaker 1: up biophilic design. Was that first step, Yeah, well, what
Speaker 1: can people do at home? There's a law you can
Speaker 1: do at home. You can get yourself mud pool and
Speaker 1: some wild boards. That's a good first step. Lookout for Gary.
Speaker 1: Get that really famous banana leaf print wallpaper. Put it
Speaker 1: everywhere you can. It's just some cotton balls and some
Speaker 1: construction paper. UM. One thing that that they figured out,
Speaker 1: there's this company called bright Green or Tarrapin bright Green.
Speaker 1: They're kind of a leader in the field. Um. They
Speaker 1: figured out that one of the things that that is
Speaker 1: an element of biophilic design is something called a refuge
Speaker 1: where your back is covered or protected, and then you
Speaker 1: have something overhead, kind of low overhead. So think about
Speaker 1: how like when you're in a restaurant and you're at
Speaker 1: a high backed booth that's up against a corner that's
Speaker 1: like this the best it is. It's the best seat
Speaker 1: in the house. The mafia can't get you right or
Speaker 1: you're you know, you're sitting um, you know, against with
Speaker 1: with nothing but like a wall or some shrubs or
Speaker 1: something behind you, and there's like a an umbrella at
Speaker 1: a cafe overhead. UM like a little place a quiet
Speaker 1: spot for you. There's advice that you should set up
Speaker 1: a place like that at your home. It could be
Speaker 1: a high wingback chair or something by a fireplace, just
Speaker 1: a place where you feel protected but also very cozy too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that idea because I'm I'm not crazy about it,
Speaker 1: but I always I and sit with my back against
Speaker 1: wall if I can. But it's not like you know,
Speaker 1: I have to or else I'll, you know, freak out
Speaker 1: Like you've got Georgia power looking for you now. So
Speaker 1: I would definitely watch my back if I were you. Two.
Speaker 1: Another thing to do, obviously is plants inside your home,
Speaker 1: but not just like think about like we said earlier,
Speaker 1: about the ecosystem, how these plants work together, and groupings
Speaker 1: of plants and uh form a little habitat if you can,
Speaker 1: and do a little bit of research about what plants
Speaker 1: like each other and pair those little buddies together. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: that's a big one. But yeah, even if it is
Speaker 1: just a couple of plants to start, you don't don't wait.
Speaker 1: Just start buying plants and bringing them into your house now.
Speaker 1: And also learn how to take care of your plants,
Speaker 1: because plants can be really easy to take care of
Speaker 1: if you just know what they need and and and
Speaker 1: you will save a lot of plant lives. And a
Speaker 1: lot of time and trouble for yourself. Um, agreed. And
Speaker 1: then the of you is another easy thing that people
Speaker 1: can do, depending on where you live. Of Um, if
Speaker 1: you have for some reason covered up your outdoor windows
Speaker 1: with a bookcase, move the bookcase so that you could
Speaker 1: look out the window. Um. One of the basis of
Speaker 1: that Savannah hypothesis is that we evolved to relax or
Speaker 1: be relaxed by a long range view, long long what's
Speaker 1: it called the thousand range there? Yeah, that feels good,
Speaker 1: But that's why when you're doing that, you are zoned out.
Speaker 1: You're kind of in a zen trance like state. That's
Speaker 1: what you're doing. This is kind of like, well, when
Speaker 1: we're looking at our computers or our phones or something
Speaker 1: like that, we're doing the opposite of that. So having
Speaker 1: a nice view what's called a prospect as far as
Speaker 1: um uh biophilic designers are concerned, that can really have
Speaker 1: a refreshing, restorative effect on us. Is even physically on
Speaker 1: our eyeballs. I love it. Yeah, I mean it's really
Speaker 1: when you dig in to it, you're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is actually for real. It's hard to read about because
Speaker 1: the architecture and design fields are possibly the two most
Speaker 1: pretentious fields the Western world has ever come up with.
Speaker 1: So reading writing about architecture and design is really kind
Speaker 1: of laborious. But when you when you dig into it,
Speaker 1: it is it is backed up and it does make
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. I just hope it's not just
Speaker 1: a passing trend. You know that it's here to stay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you know. We READID our House a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, and uh, one thing that we wanted
Speaker 1: to make sure we allotted enough money for was windows, uh,
Speaker 1: and lots of windows. And unfortunately, windows are one of
Speaker 1: the more expensive things in a house. So my advice
Speaker 1: to people if you are redoing your home or something
Speaker 1: like that, are renovating, cotton balls and and try and
Speaker 1: set aside dough and don't skimp on the windows if
Speaker 1: you can, you know, even if it means maybe losing
Speaker 1: something else, because that that that real light is huge.
Speaker 1: Go from a one bathroom to a zero bathroom with
Speaker 1: more windows. I don't know, drastic, but yeah, well, okay, Chuck,
Speaker 1: good advice to end the episode on. You got any
Speaker 1: other advice? Well, just one more little interesting thing. If
Speaker 1: you hear a plant company talk about all these plants
Speaker 1: will purify the air in your home. That's kind of
Speaker 1: not true. That sounds familiarly. Yeah, I mean, plants are
Speaker 1: always good for the air. But apparently the Atlantic issued
Speaker 1: a report that said, if you really want to clean
Speaker 1: the air in a tin by tin foot room, you
Speaker 1: would need like a thousand house plants in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think to effectively clean, I saw that, but hey,
Speaker 1: but it's still great. Get a thousand house plants in
Speaker 1: your ten by ten room. Just learn to live among them.
Speaker 1: It's just once they start talking to you, then it's
Speaker 1: time to go outside. Right. Uh, you got anything else? Now?
Speaker 1: Nothing else? I promise. Well, if you want to know
Speaker 1: more about by a phili design, go online and start
Speaker 1: looking at pictures and uh, maybe go to a local
Speaker 1: Embassy suits because they've been doing it in their lobbies
Speaker 1: for years and too good effect if you ask me.
Speaker 1: And since I shouted out embassy suitets, that means it's
Speaker 1: time for a listener mail. This is a literary correction
Speaker 1: and I can't believe this snug past me and you
Speaker 1: but from your mouth, guys. Want to preface by saying,
Speaker 1: I'm very disappointed in myself for writing this email. I
Speaker 1: feel bad that the first time I've written to you
Speaker 1: is with a correction, but my inner English major can't resist.
Speaker 1: On the episode on Dragons, Josh made a reference to
Speaker 1: William Blake's epic poem Paradise Lost, But that was John Milton.
Speaker 1: William Blake lived over a century later, but wrote a
Speaker 1: lot of poetry on biblical themes as well. Confusingly, Blake
Speaker 1: also wrote his own epic poem called Milton, which was
Speaker 1: inspired by the story of Milton's writing Paradise Lost. It
Speaker 1: is a little confusing, um and Jenna says, I'm sorry
Speaker 1: to nitpick, but also had to mention the Fairy Queen
Speaker 1: was written by Edmund Spencer rather than Spencer. Edmund, I said, Comma.
Speaker 1: I think in between that, I think, I said Spencer,
Speaker 1: Comma Edmund. Incidentally, I think Milton and Blake would both
Speaker 1: make great topics. Milton was an incredibly prolific writer who
Speaker 1: dealt with the onset of blindness as he wrote Paradise Lost,
Speaker 1: and Blake was a true renaissance man who spearheaded the
Speaker 1: Romantic movement. Spencer's life is maybe not quite so exciting,
Speaker 1: but you twould find a way to make it interesting
Speaker 1: as you do with everything. Thank you too and Jerry
Speaker 1: for making such a great show just kept me company
Speaker 1: over the past year, especially for handling both fun and
Speaker 1: difficult topics in such a comprehensive and thoughtful way. Love Jenna.
Speaker 1: That is a very lovely email. Yes, lovely is a
Speaker 1: perfect word for that. Hopefully Jenna agree. She's the English major,
Speaker 1: so she would know. If you want to get in
Speaker 1: touch of this like Jenna did in a very nice way,
Speaker 1: We love that. You can send us an email to
Speaker 1: stuff podcast did iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should
Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: H