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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

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Speaker 1: Clark and there's Charles w Chuck Bryan over there. And

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Speaker 1: you put the two of us together. Um, put a

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Speaker 1: lit on the jar. Maybe poke some holes in the

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Speaker 1: top for air, put a bladed grass in there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe some cotton balls. Yep, cotton balls with um what

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Speaker 1: do they used to knock knock things out with cotton balls?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. From all, I'm sure, uh, and you've

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Speaker 1: got stuff you should know. I'm thinking of that scene

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Speaker 1: from E. T mm hmm where he brings the frogs

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Speaker 1: back to life. Yeah, he liberates the frogs, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think he like kisses a girl because et

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Speaker 1: is watching like a soap opera or an old bromance movie.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember, but great, it is a good movie.

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Speaker 1: I saw it not too long ago, and I'm like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is really good. They also like the whole free

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Speaker 1: range kids thing. Man, those were the days. Huh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean we're on the border of showing that to

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Speaker 1: my daughter, who's you know, like five and a half.

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Speaker 1: And Emily it's like, you think she's ready for E t.

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Speaker 1: I said, well, I mean it, when when do we

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Speaker 1: want her to see the saddest movie ever? I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the question. It's just rather heartbreaking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you should show her et the first few minutes of Bambi,

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Speaker 1: the first twenty minutes of UP, just all all right,

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Speaker 1: all one after each other, and some horribleectually. Oh, she

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Speaker 1: can handle the first part of UP. She can handle.

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Speaker 1: E t all bat, I can't handle it. I know,

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I think the older you get,

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Speaker 1: the harder it is, you know. I agreed. Uh So

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Speaker 1: I got a little update on something by the way,

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Speaker 1: and I posted this to the Stuff you Should Know

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Speaker 1: Army page as breaking news yesterday. But I figured the

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Speaker 1: world at large should know that as of yesterday, my friend,

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer a squatter. Oh congratulations. Wow, then the

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Speaker 1: long national nightmares come doing. Yep. We uh walked to

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Speaker 1: check up to my County of Residents and buzzed a lady.

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Speaker 1: She came down to the lobby and picked it up, right.

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Speaker 1: Are you sure it was the lady who needed it? Well, no,

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Speaker 1: but she was going to give it to the person

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Speaker 1: who did need it. But they're just not allowing people

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Speaker 1: in the county buildings. But that was it, So it's done.

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Speaker 1: I mean all this came from the squatting started in

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Speaker 1: the squatting episode, which was like ten years old at least,

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Speaker 1: where you talking about house for fifteen years and you

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Speaker 1: had like a little plot of land that you were

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Speaker 1: you had been using and as we demonstrated in the episode,

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Speaker 1: like you technically had some sort of weird legal claim

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Speaker 1: to it. Now, Chuck, I mean, I think I remember saying, like,

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Speaker 1: it's not entirely clear that that technique even works. It's

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Speaker 1: just if there is a yeah, if there is a

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Speaker 1: legal technique that might work, it's that and you proved it,

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Speaker 1: right man, that's some serious, long term dedication to that episode. Well,

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Speaker 1: I just slight correction. I didn't get it through squatters

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Speaker 1: rights though. That really had nothing to do with it.

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Speaker 1: Oh what did it have to do with It had

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Speaker 1: to do with um County red tape and mumbo jumbo

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Speaker 1: and some back taxes and you know, it just takes.

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Speaker 1: I mean it took. It probably took five years from

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Speaker 1: the point where we engaged a real estate lawyer help

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Speaker 1: us out with it. Like that's how long it took

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Speaker 1: to cut through that red tape. Wow, that's a lot

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Speaker 1: of red tape. When you bring a lawyer in to

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Speaker 1: get a piece of land you're squatting on, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of red tape around it. Yeah, but the lawyer

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Speaker 1: it wasn't like a ton of work, so that didn't

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Speaker 1: cost that much money in the back taxes was not

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Speaker 1: that much money. So it wasn't like a very expensive affair.

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Speaker 1: But we got it in the nick of time too,

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Speaker 1: because I just found out that Georgia Power is they're

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Speaker 1: bearing power lines in our neighborhood and they had contacted

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Speaker 1: the county about that piece of land to like put

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Speaker 1: a bunch of equipment on last week. Wow. That is yeah, amazing.

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Speaker 1: So no longer a squatter. Wow, everything's coming up chuck today.

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Speaker 1: It is no longer a squatter and uh as of

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Speaker 1: coming up very soon. But by the time this comes out,

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Speaker 1: you will be half a century old as well. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so what happened? Yeah, happy birthday, thank you man. Crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the big five zero that only comes once twice three

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Speaker 1: times in a person's life, you know. Yeah, forty was

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Speaker 1: kind of like alright, middle age, but fifty is like,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, I'm going downhill. How does it feel. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't really care. I'm the same person, but it's

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Speaker 1: definitely a number to be reckoned with some mentally. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'll ask you in a few years and we'll see

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Speaker 1: what you say. Okay, that's fine. I should probably just

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Speaker 1: I should probably just fill in the joke grave that

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Speaker 1: I dug for you in that squatted land as a

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Speaker 1: surprise for your birthday. Now that, now that you say that,

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were having any kind of struggle

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Speaker 1: with fifty. But no, I'm not. It's not it's fine.

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Speaker 1: It's just when you see it on paper, it's like,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, okay, who's that. Well that's good because I

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Speaker 1: really didn't feel like going to the trouble of filling

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Speaker 1: it back in, and when I say, see it on paper,

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Speaker 1: I've just I've been writing the number fifty everywhere. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad we had all these talks because it turns

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Speaker 1: out that our episode on biophilic design could have been

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Speaker 1: a little thin otherwise. Chuck. Yeah, I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: the most robust episode, but it was kind of fell

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Speaker 1: between shorty and full length. I think, yeah, no, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll make some hay out of it, and it's actually

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Speaker 1: one of those things like UM, we talked, we touched

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Speaker 1: on it a little bit and our How Environmental Psychology

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Speaker 1: Works episode from October of two thousand nineteen, not too

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Speaker 1: long ago, because they definitely definitely tied to other UM.

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Speaker 1: But biophilic design is certainly its own thing. And if

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Speaker 1: you've been to like a restaurant or a hotel or

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Speaker 1: something pre pandemic, I should say, UM, and you saw

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Speaker 1: that they have like some vines growing on a wall,

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Speaker 1: or some succulents growing on a wall, or there's you

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Speaker 1: know a lot more natural lighting than there used to be,

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. You have been in an area

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Speaker 1: where there is some biophilic design going on exactly. And

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Speaker 1: we should point out that a lot of this material

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Speaker 1: comes from a gentleman. I mean, they're they're a handful

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Speaker 1: of people that sort of helped pioneer this idea. And

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Speaker 1: one of them is Steven R. Kellert, who is a

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Speaker 1: very much a revered professor at Yale of social ecology

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Speaker 1: at the Yale School of Forestry, which I didn't even

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Speaker 1: know existed at Yale. Yeah, Yale School of Forestry and

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Speaker 1: Environmental Studies. And UM I'm trying to see. I think

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Speaker 1: he just passed away a few years ago, but November seven,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure the year though, Yeah, that's what's looking for.

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Speaker 1: He was definitely one of the champions of biophilic design. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think I get the impression that he was

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Speaker 1: one of the ones who really tried to connect science

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Speaker 1: to that that type of design UM, because there is like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it is extremely trendy right now, like I

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Speaker 1: was saying, but there's a real push toward um, you know,

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Speaker 1: backing up the assertions that this is actually good for us,

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Speaker 1: This type of design is good for us with peer

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Speaker 1: reviewed studies, so you know, hats off to them for

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Speaker 1: doing that too. Yeah, I think he passed away four

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Speaker 1: years ago. But that's a good point. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: to say plants are nice in the house, and it's

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Speaker 1: another thing to say a design concept can actually improve

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Speaker 1: your health and well being, which is what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: I guess we should say what it is, right, Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Biophilic design is based on this idea that we humans

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Speaker 1: have evolved, um, have millions and millions of years of

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Speaker 1: evolution behind us, and that most of the evolution took

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Speaker 1: place in the outdoors or at least in in deep

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Speaker 1: connection with nature. And it was only recently. Some people

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Speaker 1: mark the First Industrial Revolution in Manchester as the real

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Speaker 1: dividing line, but it was only recently that we kind

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Speaker 1: of transitioned away from that deep connection with nature that

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Speaker 1: took place on like a daily basis, and that as

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Speaker 1: a result, we've kind of suffered. And that biophilic design

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Speaker 1: seas to kind of say, well, we you know, we're

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Speaker 1: already kind of stuck in our buildings, were stuck in

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Speaker 1: our work life, but let's figure out how to incorporate

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Speaker 1: nature into that that way of living so that we

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Speaker 1: can reconnect with it because we really do need it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think I've seen a couple of studies that verify this,

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Speaker 1: that say that humans generally spend about nine of their

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Speaker 1: time indoors now, And like you said, that there was

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Speaker 1: as far as that statistic goes, that is very very

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Speaker 1: recent if you look at it relative to how long

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Speaker 1: humans have been around, you know, yeah, yeah, I mean so,

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Speaker 1: so there's this idea that if if we have literally

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Speaker 1: evolved to to gain sustenance and an ability to thrive

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Speaker 1: from being connected with nature, the converse of that is

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Speaker 1: that if you take people away from that and stick

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Speaker 1: them into highly artificial built environments like an office building

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Speaker 1: eight or ten hours a day, five days a week,

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Speaker 1: fifty weeks a year, they're going to start to suffer

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Speaker 1: and deteriorate mentally and physically. And that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: basis of this concept, is like, okay, if you if

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Speaker 1: we've got to work like that, let's work more in

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Speaker 1: conjunction with nature. Yeah, And there's a couple of cool

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Speaker 1: quotes here from you know, it's it's nothing new that

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Speaker 1: people understand that being among nature is, you know, a

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Speaker 1: generally sort of more pleasing way to live. But if

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Speaker 1: he could read from uh, the great Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Speaker 1: almost said thorough you could they were a weird pair,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, which reminds me, I

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Speaker 1: think we have a literary correction on today's episode. Oh boy, wow,

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Speaker 1: everything's just coming together, it is. But he wrote in

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Speaker 1: eight second series essays and this isn't you know, the

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Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds, Only as far as the masters of

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Speaker 1: the world have called in nature to their aid, can

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Speaker 1: they reach the height of magnificence. This is the meaning

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Speaker 1: of their hanging gardens Villa's garden, houses, island islands, parks,

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Speaker 1: and preserves. So I mean he was kind of straight

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Speaker 1: up saying it in the mid eighteen hundreds that like,

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Speaker 1: we can only peak as people when we are surrounded

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Speaker 1: by nature as much as we can be. And that's

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Speaker 1: why even back then, I guess they were trying to

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Speaker 1: bring the outside in and Emerson was like, right, guys.

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Speaker 1: And for a long time people were like, yeah, of course,

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Speaker 1: why would you say that, you're weirdo. And then by

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Speaker 1: about the mid twentieth century, Uh, the captains of industry

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Speaker 1: at the time said you know what, Yeah, they said,

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Speaker 1: nuts to the transcendentalists. We're going a completely opposite direction,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to show just how much we've conquered nature.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna do nothing but like straight lines and right

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Speaker 1: angles and um. You know, when the oil embargo comes

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Speaker 1: along in the seventies, we're going to decree by government

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Speaker 1: mandate that buildings have to be so tightly sealed that

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Speaker 1: not a drop of air can possibly escape them. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And everything is going to be totally artificial and controlled,

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Speaker 1: including the lighting and everything. Um. And we're going to

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Speaker 1: show that we've conquered nature. We don't even need nature.

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Speaker 1: And then in very short order, within just a few decades,

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Speaker 1: people started to be like, I can't, I can't live

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Speaker 1: like this. Um, I didn't see anything directly connected to it,

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Speaker 1: but I would hazard a really you know, armchair anecdotal

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Speaker 1: gap that you could trace a lot of the weird

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Speaker 1: things that people do, like um, mass shootings and office

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Speaker 1: spaces and workplaces and things like that to the environment

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Speaker 1: a lot more than people have directly have have traced directly,

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Speaker 1: I'll bet you could. I agree, it's a total guess,

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Speaker 1: but from what I can tell, that seems to be

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Speaker 1: largely in conjunction with a lot of the depth that

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Speaker 1: people have lent to biophilic design investigations. So that's fine.

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Speaker 1: I think it could be a factor for sure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There was another gentleman the sixties named Eric from that

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Speaker 1: sort of introduced in the you know, twentieth century this

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Speaker 1: idea of biophilia. But I think it was Edward O.

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Speaker 1: Wilson who he's kind of known as the you know,

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Speaker 1: the twenty one century Darwin. He's a biologist and a

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Speaker 1: writer and a philosopher and an aunt specialist. But he

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Speaker 1: wrote a book in nineteen four called biophila philia, and

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Speaker 1: I think that was where I think it's biophilia. I

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Speaker 1: didn't see an eye in that case, but I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure it's okay. Sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean it

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Speaker 1: correct well necessarily I know that know it may be,

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Speaker 1: but either way, that was I think. I think he

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Speaker 1: was the person who coined the term. That's the first

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Speaker 1: use of it I actually saw of that word. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's biophilia, like for love of life, for love of

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Speaker 1: living things basically. And I think Edward O. Wilson deserves

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Speaker 1: his own episode. He was an interesting dude um as

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Speaker 1: a boy, Chuck. I read an anecdote about him. As

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Speaker 1: a boy. He happened to be living in like I think,

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Speaker 1: around New Orleans when the first fire ants showed up

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Speaker 1: to North America. They washed ashore somehow, I think from

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Speaker 1: ballast or something like that, from a ship's a ship's ballast.

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Speaker 1: And as like an eleven year old boy, he was

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Speaker 1: smart enough to recognize that they were something new or

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Speaker 1: different and describe them scientifically. I think he was the

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Speaker 1: first person to describe your ants in North America as

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Speaker 1: an eleven year old kid, I mean, if your specialty

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Speaker 1: in your life, I mean, you had a lot of passions,

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Speaker 1: but if your main life fashion is ants, then you're

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Speaker 1: pretty cool in my book. Ye. So this whole theory

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Speaker 1: of biophilia basically says what we were saying. What biophilic

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Speaker 1: design is based on, that that humans evolved to get

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Speaker 1: their cues and their happiness and their well being and

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Speaker 1: our our ability to thrive from our natural settings UM,

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Speaker 1: and that we just have like a deep need to

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Speaker 1: connect with nature, and that when we don't, bad things

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Speaker 1: can happen basically to our well being, even things we

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily put our finger on as being the result

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Speaker 1: of not being connected to nature. But it's still it

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Speaker 1: still is, it's still what the underlying thing is. And

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Speaker 1: apparently biophilic design, as far as architecture and interior design go, UM,

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Speaker 1: it finds its roots a little more even even more

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Speaker 1: recently than UM than Edward or wils And it actually

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Speaker 1: comes out of the nineties when there was a movement

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Speaker 1: to change zoo enclosures to make them more naturally that

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Speaker 1: that's that's where this whole movement of UM living plant

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Speaker 1: walls at your local Hyatt hotel lobby comes from zoo enclosures,

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Speaker 1: which is really kind of eye opening when you realize

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Speaker 1: that's the basis of it. I think that's a great

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Speaker 1: place for a medium cliffhanger. Okay, I'll take medium today.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll be right back after this. Alright, So

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Speaker 1: medium cliffhanger, you introduce the idea that it was really

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Speaker 1: in the nineties when um they started to redo zoo

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Speaker 1: and closures where this idea for humans sprung up. And

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Speaker 1: I guess the only cliffhang areas who kind of helped

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Speaker 1: lead that charge. And it's a psychologist name Judith here Wagon.

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Speaker 1: I would say here Wagan, but uh, in America, it's

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Speaker 1: probably here Wagon. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. At the at

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Speaker 1: the Seattle Zoo, right, Yeah, she was a graduate student,

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Speaker 1: and this was I can't believe this was the nineties

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Speaker 1: and not the sixties, but I guess it took a

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Speaker 1: while before we started saying and this wasn't every zoo,

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Speaker 1: but there were still a lot of zoos then that

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Speaker 1: you know, would keep a gorilla and a monkey in

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Speaker 1: a in a cage. And they sat up and people

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Speaker 1: like Judah said, you know what, why don't we make

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Speaker 1: this more like their habitat because they're experiencing zookosis they're fighting,

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Speaker 1: they're not social, they're not reproducing. That's a big problem.

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Speaker 1: And out of that was born the same idea for humans,

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Speaker 1: which is funny that it took so long from the

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Speaker 1: nineties to kind of really take hold more with humans

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Speaker 1: because we called it inhumane for animals, but for us.

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Speaker 1: I guess it was just fine. Maybe they just didn't

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Speaker 1: see the connection. Yeah, I suppose they didn't, because the

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Speaker 1: way that they changed the zoo animals enclosures for the

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Speaker 1: better was to make them much more like their natural habitat.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the animals that live at the zoo

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Speaker 1: are far more recently removed from their natural habitats, so

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Speaker 1: we can imagine them in a grassland with some trees

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Speaker 1: like a savannah, or living among antelope or something like that.

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Speaker 1: All of these techniques that they brought together to make

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Speaker 1: their there the places where they lived at zoos a

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Speaker 1: lot more like the ecosystems that they lived in um

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Speaker 1: back home. UM. When you when you think of humans,

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Speaker 1: you don't think of us living on savannahs or grasslands.

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Speaker 1: But that's the very basis of this idea, this theory

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Speaker 1: of biophilia, is that that's where we evolved on the savannah,

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Speaker 1: these big open grassy meadows with lots of trees and

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Speaker 1: probably some water somewhere trickling by just basically everything that

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Speaker 1: any human alive thinks of as an idyllic outdoor place.

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Speaker 1: That that's the kind of setting that we evolved in,

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Speaker 1: and that that's the kind of habitat that we need

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Speaker 1: to interact with two just as much as zoo animals does.

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Speaker 1: And it's like our technology made us forget that we're animals.

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Speaker 1: What happened, you know what I'm saying, Like we we

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Speaker 1: lost that memory, And so I think that's why it

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Speaker 1: wasn't the opposite like, oh, we need to make a

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Speaker 1: better habitat for humans and then make it for zoo animals.

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Speaker 1: It was the opposite way around, because we don't think

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Speaker 1: of ourselves as as animals any longer. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: we thought our natural habitat is the building, you know exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it goes to step further though, Like it's much

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Speaker 1: more than just put in some plants or a fountain

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Speaker 1: that makes a nice trickling sound. They really want to

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Speaker 1: get into sort of the evolutionary aspect of the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and that, uh, if it was a benefit evolutionarily over

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Speaker 1: time over the millennia. Then that's what's going to contribute

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Speaker 1: to the actual health and well being. So it can't

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Speaker 1: be It had to be an actual thing that really

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Speaker 1: improved us for you know, thousands or millions of years,

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Speaker 1: not just something that maybe went away like or like

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Speaker 1: a desert habitat or something like that. It had to

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Speaker 1: be something in order to you know, for the science

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Speaker 1: to work, and we'll get to that, something that really

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Speaker 1: contributed as we evolved to our well being. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: like again we come back to that savannah hypothesis which um,

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Speaker 1: which means that if you're designing something that kind of

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Speaker 1: seeks to emulate a savannah, well, there's lots of high

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Speaker 1: open spaces, so you might have like a really soaring atrium,

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Speaker 1: lots of trees that you can just put some trees

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Speaker 1: into that atrium. Again, a little bit of a water feature. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of the other big things that's kind of like

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Speaker 1: a foundation of biophilic design is it's like you're saying

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Speaker 1: you can just put a water feature in and put

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Speaker 1: a tree in and call it a day. Like there

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Speaker 1: actually needs to be thought into how these things interact

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Speaker 1: and form a cohesive whole. You know, you don't you

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Speaker 1: you want to see the forest, not the trees when

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Speaker 1: you're creating biophilic design, and that that they kind of

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Speaker 1: have to to fit together correctly in an intuitive way

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Speaker 1: or else that in eight sense that evolved in the savannah,

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Speaker 1: that's lodged in all of our brains. Well, no, like

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Speaker 1: this is fake and it probably won't have a benefit

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Speaker 1: for us, and it might even have a negative benefit

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Speaker 1: if it's not done correctly. Yeah, Like the idea is

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Speaker 1: to create an indoor ecosystem that sort of mimics the

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Speaker 1: outdoors in a lot of ways. Like the the it's bigger,

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Speaker 1: the whole is bigger than the sum of its part.

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Speaker 1: If you really want the individual to have a genuine,

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Speaker 1: you know, improvement in their health and well being. And

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Speaker 1: like I said, not just hey, this bank put a

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Speaker 1: palm tree in the corner, right, isn't it? Isn't it

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Speaker 1: nice to look at? Yeah? But I mean that's something.

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Speaker 1: It's better than nothing. But I think the fact that

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Speaker 1: seeing a potted plant in a place like a bank,

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Speaker 1: even back in the mid century was not weird or jarring,

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Speaker 1: like it just looked like, yeah, of course you would

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Speaker 1: do that. There is this kind of like early trace

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Speaker 1: evidence of like this kind of like a cry for help, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we we need something, We need something natural in here. Um,

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Speaker 1: even a fake potted plant to fool us into thinking

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Speaker 1: that that there's some sort of nature here. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: biophilic design basically says, forget your potted plant, Like, we

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Speaker 1: need like a whole planning, whole cropping, a whole little

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Speaker 1: um like a garden, like a glade, something that that

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Speaker 1: looks natural, not just a single plant in a pot

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Speaker 1: in a corner. That's not good enough. Yeah, and sort

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Speaker 1: of one of the third tenants is that you have

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Speaker 1: to kind of engage and interact with this. Uh, there's

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Speaker 1: the idea that biophilia is what's known as a weak

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Speaker 1: biological tendency instead of a hardwired in and that means

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Speaker 1: if it's a weak one, that means that you gotta

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Speaker 1: work on it and it has to be nurtured. And

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe this could be employed like instead of Uh,

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Speaker 1: a plant wall is very nice, but what's even better

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Speaker 1: is a hallway lined with plants that you have to

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Speaker 1: literally walk through and interact with. Yeah. Like, the idea

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Speaker 1: behind this kind of foundational concept is that if you're

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Speaker 1: really creating a biophilically designed UM workplace for your employees.

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Speaker 1: UM putting you know, everything you got into the foyer

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Speaker 1: or the atrium or where the reception desk is. It's

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Speaker 1: gonna wow the people who come through the doors, but

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Speaker 1: when they pass through, they're entering just a normal office

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Speaker 1: and it loses all of its impact. Like that receptionist

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Speaker 1: is gonna be working like gangbusters and probably have the

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Speaker 1: best life they possibly could, but everybody else who works there,

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Speaker 1: who just passes through the lobby is not going to

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Speaker 1: really benefit from it. It needs to be kind of

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Speaker 1: constant and UM. It can be ephemeral, like it can

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Speaker 1: be kind of fleeting or passing, but there needs to

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Speaker 1: be like the constant possibility of fleeting and ephemeral contact

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Speaker 1: with nature, so that over the course of an entire

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Speaker 1: day it was virtually constant. It just came in different

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Speaker 1: forms that were kind of fleeting. A good example of

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Speaker 1: this is like, UM, the shadows of something changing in

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Speaker 1: the office space as the day progresses. That's ephemeral, that's fleeting,

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Speaker 1: but UM, there's still shadows even though they're in different places,

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Speaker 1: in different sizes and shapes and angles throughout the day.

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Speaker 1: The shadows are still there all day, and but they change,

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Speaker 1: and that we feed on. That is kind of the

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Speaker 1: basis of biophilic design, that that has an effect on

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Speaker 1: us a positive one, to be able to see that

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Speaker 1: during the day. Yeah, And I think the idea too

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Speaker 1: is there's also you know, if you are surrounded by

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Speaker 1: or in a in a building that employs biophilic design,

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Speaker 1: you're you're developing an emotional attachment to a place you

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Speaker 1: might not ordinarily develop an attachment to. And I think

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Speaker 1: anyone who's ever walked through, uh, just a sort of

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Speaker 1: a standard gross office like we used to work in,

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Speaker 1: like our office. We haven't been in it for a while,

419
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Speaker 1: but it's kind of cool because we have this huge,

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Speaker 1: huge bank of windows, which is nice, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have plants, which is nice. But we've been

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Speaker 1: some bad offices over the years, so bad like just

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Speaker 1: straight nothing but marble, like barely any plants. It's just

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Speaker 1: bad news. And then like the actual offices were just

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Speaker 1: divided up with like high high sight lines that you

426
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: have to like kind of stand on your tiptoes. Just

427
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: bad news for sure, for sure. So walking through something

428
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: like that, and then the experience you have emotionally of

429
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: when you're like at a botanical garden and you're walking

430
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: through a greenhouse. It's just I mean, I don't maybe

431
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: there are people that don't like things like that, but

432
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine some body walking through one of

433
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: these lush, sort of humid greenhouses that's just cut, you know,

434
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: the good ones. It's it's just packed with stuff everywhere,

435
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: and you hear water running and like plants are brushing

436
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 1: up against you as you move. I don't know many

437
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: people would just be like, no, thanks, yea out there sure,

438
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there are people out there, and

439
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: there's plenty people that don't like to go camping or

440
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: be in the woods and stuff like that, but I'd

441
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: say even a lot of those people would enjoy a

442
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: greenhouse experience, right yeah, or no, or at the very

443
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: least would enjoy prefer a lobby that has that's well

444
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: done with biophilic designed to one that's just sterile. And

445
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: and you know, Norwegian like, I think they're kind of

446
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: leading the charge on a lot of this. Yeah, weirdly

447
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: they are, for sure, but check so, I mean we

448
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: kind of reach now the reason why a lot of

449
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: the big tech companies are leading the way and working

450
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: with UM architect your firms and design firms that are

451
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: pushing biophilic design on them. Is that they're basically trying

452
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: to subliminally trick you into liking work, right Like you're

453
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: like they want you to form a place attachment to

454
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 1: their office so that you stay there more, you have

455
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: fewer sick days, you do more while you're there, you

456
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: just enjoy yourself there. And there's really kind of two

457
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: ways of looking at big corporations getting into biophilic design.

458
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: And one is that you're you're being manipulated to increase

459
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: your productivity, like deep, deeply manipulated on an evolutionary almost

460
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: genetic level, or that you have to be at work anyway,

461
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 1: and they're trying to make it as pleasant as possible

462
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: for you. I guess it just depends on whether you're

463
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: like a glass half full or half empty kind of person.

464
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: But those are the two interpretations of huge companies getting

465
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: into biophilic design. And and I'm all of them have

466
00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: like UM, Facebook's campus in Menlo Park, the Googleplex, UM

467
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: Microsoft's office and Redmond uh Coppertino, Apple's big old Donut UFO,

468
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: all of them have the Amazon's offices. I think they're

469
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,239
Speaker 1: called Bezos's Balls downtown in Seattle. That's what they call

470
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: them that I read. Um, it proved me wrong. Seattle

471
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: proved me wrong. Uh. The all of them are designed

472
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: with biophilic design right now. Yeah, I think you'd have

473
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: to be fairly cynical when an effort is made to

474
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: bring a more calming, healthful environment to be like, yeah,

475
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: I see what they're doing here. They're just manipulating me.

476
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: I see. Yeah, for real, who would think that? Who

477
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: would think that way? You're not like that at all. Right,

478
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: So some of the ways that you can, uh, I

479
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: mean they're sort of indirect and direct ways of doing this.

480
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: Obviously we talked about plants. Um. Light is a big,

481
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: big one, UM, and that that first office we had

482
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: years ago in Buckhead, I think that's what you're talking about.

483
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: Our cubicle walls were so high it was like it

484
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: was stifling and no light natural light would come in.

485
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: I think there were like there were some offices on

486
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: the outside, so if you had an office, maybe you

487
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: had a window, but otherwise you were just counting on

488
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: fluorescent lights above your head, which are the worst. I

489
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: think we should do a shorty unfluorescent lighting at some point.

490
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: It would be kind of cool. But water features are

491
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: always great, the sounds of running water, the visual appeal

492
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: of running water. I agree, But I feel like there

493
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: could be too much. Like I think that the sound

494
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: of water in particular is supposed to be something that

495
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: we here in passing or at a distance. Like I

496
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: think if you just heard water trickling all day long,

497
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: kind of loudly, it might drive you a little bit crazy,

498
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: you think, I think. So that's just my take on it.

499
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: I would dig it, but you have to you know,

500
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,239
Speaker 1: you might just have to be too much right now,

501
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: It's definitely that's definitely part of it. But now, I like,

502
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: I love the sound of water. Two I find extremely relaxing.

503
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: I just think it could be overdone, is what I mean. Alright,

504
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: I hear you. Um, Like these are sort of the obvious,

505
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: real natural things that you can bring in, you know,

506
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: open windows occasionally to get like real fresh air in there. Yeah.

507
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: One of the things I saw, Chuck was was um

508
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: natural ventilation. And I'm sorry, Like I this is a

509
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: bit of a thing to me, Like, I am totally

510
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: fascinated by how this this fits into this. What do

511
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: you mean So the idea that that you know, the

512
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: buildings of yesteryear, unfortunately that a lot of us still

513
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: work in, were sealed off purposely to make them more

514
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: energy efficient, but that all of the air that passes

515
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: through is very filtered and artificial and there's nothing coming

516
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: in from the outside. Biophilic design says, no, no, no,

517
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: don't do that, Like go back to natural ventilation. Like

518
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: you're gonna have lower energy costs, You're gonna have pleasant

519
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: breezes blowing through, You're gonna have change is in temperature

520
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: that are much more natural, which sounds good, but in practice,

521
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: it's like, well, what about your what about your computer hardware?

522
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: There's a lot of humidity in the air too, right,

523
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,719
Speaker 1: what effect is that can have on all of your

524
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: employees computers or the the servers in the basement or whatever.

525
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: Um or you know, what about when it's cold out

526
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: do you leave the doors open? Like what do you

527
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: do about it during the winter time? And then um

528
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: also in the spring? What about your employees who have

529
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: seasonal allergies? So like I have, Like I totally get

530
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: the need for that, but that is the one part

531
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: of biophilic design that. I'm like, this is the thing

532
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: that's most at odds with with modern office buildings, the air,

533
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: like like natural air versus you know, artificially treated air.

534
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: I don't know how they're figuring that out, and I

535
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: couldn't find a lot on it, but I'm fascinated by

536
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: that one. I wonder if it's more like it's not

537
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: completely one or the other. Like you have your h

538
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: VEC system and everything still, but when the weather agrees,

539
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: you can open your windows like they're not hermetically sealed

540
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: like most offices. Yeah, okay, I saw that there was

541
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: a it's called a mixed system where you're using both

542
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: and yeah, it depends on wind. But but then you know,

543
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: if it's really cold out or whatever, does everybody's have

544
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: to be like it's super artificial inside for this the

545
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: next few months and then maybe it'll get nice again.

546
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: I'm just there's gotta be a way to conquer that,

547
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, So, I mean to me, what fascinates

548
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: uh me about this whole thing is I've always been

549
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: a nature guy, so it's it's obvious to bring in

550
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: plants and water and stuff like that. I think the

551
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: more indirect things are really fascinating. Uh. There's this place

552
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: in Portugal. It's I think there are a bunch of them.

553
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: They're called Second Home. It's a coworking space, but this

554
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: one in Portugal specifically is well known for having more

555
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: than two thousand plants. So that's sort of the obvious one.

556
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: But they also just in their design, they don't have

557
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: any straight lines in the office because there are no

558
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: straight lines in nature rarely. Uh. They don't have matching

559
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: uh office chairs and desks and things like that because

560
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: there's variety of nature, so they'll just have like just

561
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: different chairs everywhere. And like actual they call it fractal

562
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: complexity that you find in nature in different shapes of things. Uh.

563
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's the kind of thing where

564
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: someone would walk in and say, look at all these

565
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: different office chairs, I feel so alive. But I think

566
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: it's just little things like that kind of contribute to

567
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: the whole as working as a part of that you know,

568
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: emotional and I guess mental ecosystem. Yes, that's exactly the point.

569
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: So like, um, what is the dude's name who passed? Who? Uh? Kellert? Yeah,

570
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: Dr Keller. It was kind of breaking it down into

571
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: two things one's direct experience of nature, and then the

572
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: stuff you're talking about falls under the umbrella of indirect

573
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: experience of nature, kind of like um being worked on

574
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: subliminally by things like curve shapes and fractal patterns, or

575
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: using like stone stone flooring overlight, highly artificial UM carpet

576
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: or something like that, or granite countertops is a way

577
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: of evoking nature because it is still granted, it's just

578
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: that we've kind of um carved it into the shape

579
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: that we that isn't natural. There's lots of straight lines,

580
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: usually with a granite countertop, but it's still a natural material.

581
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: It's still evokes nature. UM. There's also like using artificial

582
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: light that's designed to kind of change throughout the course

583
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: of the day. UM. That's another way to kind of

584
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: indirectly experienced nature, just kind of using suggestions and tricks.

585
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: This stuff you wouldn't put your finger on and be

586
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: like nature, but it's still having that biophilic impact on you.

587
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: Although a lot of what I saw as far as

588
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: researching is that some of the leaders in this space

589
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: kind of say, like you know, nuts to artificial light,

590
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: get as much like real light in the space as

591
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: you possibly can from what I saw that was light.

592
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: That was like the number one thing is is natural light,

593
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: like lighting natural light in Yeah. The other thing that

594
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: I think is really cool is wayfinding, like how a

595
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: building is laid out as far as you know. Usually

596
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: it's like you're walking down a straight hall, you turn

597
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: left to go down another straight hall. But if they

598
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: can mimic nature a little bit more and have hallways

599
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: that are a little more meandering. Um, I mean, you

600
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: gotta get where you need to go, sure, but if

601
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: it's done in a more natural way, like meander to

602
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: a central point which might be the oasis or something

603
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: like that, I think that's a really cool way to

604
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: bring it out. Yeah, we talked a lot about that

605
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: in the Environmental Psychology episode, but we we talked about

606
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: it from a different perspective where they would use tricks

607
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: and techniques to keep you on a path rather than

608
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: letting you wander off to places you weren't supposed to be.

609
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: That was part of of wayfinding for sure. But yeah,

610
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: that's a fascinating topic period. Like whenever I go to

611
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: a like a hospital that's really smartly laid out and

612
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: you can really Hospitals are notorious for people getting lost

613
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: and not be able to find where you need to go,

614
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: and if you go to one that has done it right,

615
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: it's it's really cool to think about how much effort

616
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: goes into that. Yeah. Yeah, I love that too. That

617
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: was one of my favorite parts of that episode. And

618
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: I like this too. But it's just with biophilic design.

619
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, take a left by the mud

620
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: pools and then you know, when you run into the

621
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 1: pack of wild boars, turned back around because you've gone

622
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: too far. Yeah, go by the mud pools and say

623
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: hi to Gary from a county. He sits in those

624
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: crazy for the mud pools. We can never get Gary

625
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: out of here. Should we take a break and talk

626
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: about the science. Uh? I, I'm just trying to see

627
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: if I had anymore because there was a lot of

628
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: indirect and direct experiences of nature. But yeah, I guess

629
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: that's it. Okay, sure, In other words, let's do it. Oh,

630
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: I did have one chuck now that we're back. Um.

631
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: It was one of the direct experiences of nature from

632
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: Dr Kellert's was weather. So my idea for biophilic design

633
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: would be to put to paste cotton balls onto a

634
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: piece of construction paper. That's cut out in the shape

635
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: of a cloud. Put those on the walls here there,

636
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 1: that's the thing that you were trying to think of. Yes, yeah,

637
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: that was the thing I decided was worth restating after

638
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: the break. No, man, I love a little cotton ball clouds.

639
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: Love them. Plus they're cotton too, so it's even more

640
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: natural because it's a natural material evoking a different part

641
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: of nature. It's you want to make your employees headspin

642
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: with productivity, Make cotton ball clouds and put those on

643
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: the wall and you could use it as a little

644
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: pillow during your break time. Very nice. So science, Um,

645
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: this is all well and good and can be kind

646
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: of hippie dippy if you think about it. But is

647
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: there actual science behind this? And it appears that there

648
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: is in most cases there's There's been a lot of studies. Um.

649
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: I found a couple a couple of different ones, not

650
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: in this article, but one was in twenty nineteen and Denmark.

651
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: Kids who had been exposed to greenery had less mental

652
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: health problems later in life. There were a couple of

653
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: studies in Norway that found that subjects who did reading

654
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: an attention based tasks surrounded by plants and greenery improve

655
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: their scores over time. And there's a lot of talk about,

656
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: um what's called attention restoration theory, which is if you're

657
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: staring at a screen all day, even taking a minute

658
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: to go stare out a window at a tree can

659
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: restore you a little bit. I thought of a really

660
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: good analogy for this, if I do say so myself.

661
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: You know those grounding rods that we put into the

662
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 1: ground outside of our houses and all of our our

663
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: electrical appliances are connected to it, and it allows we

664
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: we discharge the excess electricity into the ground where it dissipates.

665
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of what nature does to us,

666
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: whether it's gazing out a window or going out in

667
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: the nature. Um, we're like un unburdening ourselves with all

668
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: of the just crud that has gathered up and the

669
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: tension that's gathered from staring at that screen or thinking

670
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: or over exerting ourselves. We like are able to disperse

671
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: it into nature, and nature is a big enough reservoir

672
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: to accept it and we feel better afterward. I think

673
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: that's kind of close to what we're doing. Yeah, I

674
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: wonder if we're ever going to find a mechanism for

675
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: how that actually happens, or is it the opposite where

676
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: we're actually depleted and then seeing nature recharges us. It's

677
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's two different, two different versions. Well, I mean,

678
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: I think the science does back it up. There was

679
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: another study from Northwestern and that found that people who

680
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: are exposed to natural light more during the workday got

681
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 1: an additional forty six minutes of sleep at night. So

682
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: it's not just like improved work productivity and happy feelings,

683
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: it's like you're getting solid sleep at night. Yeah. And

684
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: I mean like there's just unequivally, unequivocally a lot of

685
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: science to back it up, including on a physiological level,

686
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: things like, um, there we we have lower levels of cortisol,

687
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: our heart rates are lowered. UM. We we just generally

688
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: are physically better off. Um when we have things like

689
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: a good view of nature or where there's breezes or

690
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: where especially I saw um, where we're exposed to even

691
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: indirect sunlight throughout the day. That has an enormous impact

692
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: on on our sense of well being. Uh, as far

693
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: as things like anxiety and depression go as well. Um.

694
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of science to back it up.

695
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 1: It's it's what I saw kind of how Keller put

696
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: it is. There seems to be this um like architecture

697
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: and design wants to figure out how to take this

698
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: idea and package it so that they can just sell

699
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: it everywhere as easy as possible. That's just true with

700
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: all industry and business. Whenever somebody comes up with a

701
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: really good idea, they want to figure out how to

702
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: mass produce it. It's the American way, right um and

703
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: Keller it was basically saying like there's a real um

704
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: danger in basically laying this out and it's ablishing exactly

705
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: how to do this because people will just kind of

706
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: co modify, package it and it will lose it Like

707
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 1: that doesn't that's not how biophilic design actually works. Instead,

708
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: here are the principles of it. Figure out how to

709
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: make it work in harmony with a lot of what's

710
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: called informational richness. So there's a lot going on, but

711
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: not too much because if it's too busy, you're too noisy,

712
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: then now you've got problems because you have a bunch

713
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: of distracted employees um or a bunch of distracted customers. Whoever,

714
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: there's a lot of balance. But these guys who kind

715
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: of created this field and then again backed it up

716
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: with science, kind of laid out the foundation of it

717
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: and said, now it's up to you, the designer, to

718
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: figure it out on each different case. Don't try to

719
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: package it because you're going to lose this. Uh if

720
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: we if we try to co modify it. Interesting. Yeah,

721
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: I thought it is. But at the same time it's

722
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: it's a really good um. It was very wise of

723
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: him to include that, you know. Yeah, there was one

724
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: more study I wanted to mention, because it's not just

725
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: in the workplace, but recuperating in the hospital is actually

726
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: this is where it can really really help people. Um

727
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: In the National Institutes of Health published a study that

728
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: found that people recuperating after surgery had shorter stays in

729
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: the hospital overall and needed less pain meds, even if

730
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: just simply they had a garden view as opposed to

731
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: some other credit view like a brick wall or a

732
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: parking lot. Yeah, Roger ulric Um, we talked him in

733
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: the Environmental Psychology episode two, I think because that was

734
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: like that basically laid the groundwork for the science backing

735
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: up biophilic design. Was that first step, Yeah, well, what

736
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: can people do at home? There's a law you can

737
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: do at home. You can get yourself mud pool and

738
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: some wild boards. That's a good first step. Lookout for Gary.

739
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: Get that really famous banana leaf print wallpaper. Put it

740
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: everywhere you can. It's just some cotton balls and some

741
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: construction paper. UM. One thing that that they figured out,

742
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: there's this company called bright Green or Tarrapin bright Green.

743
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: They're kind of a leader in the field. Um. They

744
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: figured out that one of the things that that is

745
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: an element of biophilic design is something called a refuge

746
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: where your back is covered or protected, and then you

747
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: have something overhead, kind of low overhead. So think about

748
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: how like when you're in a restaurant and you're at

749
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: a high backed booth that's up against a corner that's

750
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: like this the best it is. It's the best seat

751
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: in the house. The mafia can't get you right or

752
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: you're you know, you're sitting um, you know, against with

753
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: with nothing but like a wall or some shrubs or

754
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: something behind you, and there's like a an umbrella at

755
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: a cafe overhead. UM like a little place a quiet

756
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: spot for you. There's advice that you should set up

757
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: a place like that at your home. It could be

758
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: a high wingback chair or something by a fireplace, just

759
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: a place where you feel protected but also very cozy too. Yeah.

760
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: I love that idea because I'm I'm not crazy about it,

761
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: but I always I and sit with my back against

762
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: wall if I can. But it's not like you know,

763
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: I have to or else I'll, you know, freak out

764
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: Like you've got Georgia power looking for you now. So

765
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: I would definitely watch my back if I were you. Two.

766
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: Another thing to do, obviously is plants inside your home,

767
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: but not just like think about like we said earlier,

768
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: about the ecosystem, how these plants work together, and groupings

769
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: of plants and uh form a little habitat if you can,

770
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: and do a little bit of research about what plants

771
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: like each other and pair those little buddies together. Yeah, um,

772
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: that's a big one. But yeah, even if it is

773
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: just a couple of plants to start, you don't don't wait.

774
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: Just start buying plants and bringing them into your house now.

775
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: And also learn how to take care of your plants,

776
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: because plants can be really easy to take care of

777
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: if you just know what they need and and and

778
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: you will save a lot of plant lives. And a

779
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: lot of time and trouble for yourself. Um, agreed. And

780
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: then the of you is another easy thing that people

781
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: can do, depending on where you live. Of Um, if

782
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: you have for some reason covered up your outdoor windows

783
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: with a bookcase, move the bookcase so that you could

784
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: look out the window. Um. One of the basis of

785
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: that Savannah hypothesis is that we evolved to relax or

786
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: be relaxed by a long range view, long long what's

787
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: it called the thousand range there? Yeah, that feels good,

788
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: But that's why when you're doing that, you are zoned out.

789
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: You're kind of in a zen trance like state. That's

790
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: what you're doing. This is kind of like, well, when

791
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 1: we're looking at our computers or our phones or something

792
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: like that, we're doing the opposite of that. So having

793
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 1: a nice view what's called a prospect as far as

794
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: um uh biophilic designers are concerned, that can really have

795
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: a refreshing, restorative effect on us. Is even physically on

796
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: our eyeballs. I love it. Yeah, I mean it's really

797
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: when you dig in to it, you're like, oh, this

798
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: is actually for real. It's hard to read about because

799
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: the architecture and design fields are possibly the two most

800
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: pretentious fields the Western world has ever come up with.

801
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,439
Speaker 1: So reading writing about architecture and design is really kind

802
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: of laborious. But when you when you dig into it,

803
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: it is it is backed up and it does make

804
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. I just hope it's not just

805
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: a passing trend. You know that it's here to stay. Yeah,

806
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: I think you know. We READID our House a couple

807
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: of years ago, and uh, one thing that we wanted

808
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 1: to make sure we allotted enough money for was windows, uh,

809
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: and lots of windows. And unfortunately, windows are one of

810
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: the more expensive things in a house. So my advice

811
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: to people if you are redoing your home or something

812
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: like that, are renovating, cotton balls and and try and

813
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: set aside dough and don't skimp on the windows if

814
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: you can, you know, even if it means maybe losing

815
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: something else, because that that that real light is huge.

816
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: Go from a one bathroom to a zero bathroom with

817
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: more windows. I don't know, drastic, but yeah, well, okay, Chuck,

818
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: good advice to end the episode on. You got any

819
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 1: other advice? Well, just one more little interesting thing. If

820
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: you hear a plant company talk about all these plants

821
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: will purify the air in your home. That's kind of

822
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: not true. That sounds familiarly. Yeah, I mean, plants are

823
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: always good for the air. But apparently the Atlantic issued

824
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: a report that said, if you really want to clean

825
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: the air in a tin by tin foot room, you

826
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: would need like a thousand house plants in there. Yeah,

827
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: I think to effectively clean, I saw that, but hey,

828
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: but it's still great. Get a thousand house plants in

829
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 1: your ten by ten room. Just learn to live among them.

830
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: It's just once they start talking to you, then it's

831
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,959
Speaker 1: time to go outside. Right. Uh, you got anything else? Now?

832
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: Nothing else? I promise. Well, if you want to know

833
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: more about by a phili design, go online and start

834
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: looking at pictures and uh, maybe go to a local

835
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: Embassy suits because they've been doing it in their lobbies

836
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: for years and too good effect if you ask me.

837
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: And since I shouted out embassy suitets, that means it's

838
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: time for a listener mail. This is a literary correction

839
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: and I can't believe this snug past me and you

840
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: but from your mouth, guys. Want to preface by saying,

841
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: I'm very disappointed in myself for writing this email. I

842
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: feel bad that the first time I've written to you

843
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: is with a correction, but my inner English major can't resist.

844
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: On the episode on Dragons, Josh made a reference to

845
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: William Blake's epic poem Paradise Lost, But that was John Milton.

846
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: William Blake lived over a century later, but wrote a

847
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: lot of poetry on biblical themes as well. Confusingly, Blake

848
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 1: also wrote his own epic poem called Milton, which was

849
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Speaker 1: inspired by the story of Milton's writing Paradise Lost. It

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Speaker 1: is a little confusing, um and Jenna says, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: to nitpick, but also had to mention the Fairy Queen

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Speaker 1: was written by Edmund Spencer rather than Spencer. Edmund, I said, Comma.

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Speaker 1: I think in between that, I think, I said Spencer,

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Speaker 1: Comma Edmund. Incidentally, I think Milton and Blake would both

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Speaker 1: make great topics. Milton was an incredibly prolific writer who

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Speaker 1: dealt with the onset of blindness as he wrote Paradise Lost,

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Speaker 1: and Blake was a true renaissance man who spearheaded the

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Speaker 1: Romantic movement. Spencer's life is maybe not quite so exciting,

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Speaker 1: but you twould find a way to make it interesting

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Speaker 1: as you do with everything. Thank you too and Jerry

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Speaker 1: for making such a great show just kept me company

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Speaker 1: over the past year, especially for handling both fun and

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Speaker 1: difficult topics in such a comprehensive and thoughtful way. Love Jenna.

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Speaker 1: That is a very lovely email. Yes, lovely is a

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Speaker 1: perfect word for that. Hopefully Jenna agree. She's the English major,

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Speaker 1: so she would know. If you want to get in

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Speaker 1: touch of this like Jenna did in a very nice way,

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Speaker 1: We love that. You can send us an email to

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Speaker 1: stuff podcast did iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should

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Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more

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00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: podcasts my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 1: H