1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zeitron. 3 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Now. 4 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: Look, I'm just a simple country podcaster, but at my heart, 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: I'm a writer. I've been writing since I was sixteen. 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: I wrote about video games that are now defunct magazine 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 2: called CVG and then another called PC Zone. And there's 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: been one theme, one thing that has hung around my 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 2: entire media career, and that thing is that the people 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 2: running the media do not read or write. And I 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 2: must sound a little dramatic, but really I'm not kidding. 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 2: The majority of the media executives I've worked for and 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: the ones I've met, just did not understand or create 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: any media of any kind. There were publishers who ran 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: games publications who didn't play games, and didn't write, and 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: hadn't written, didn't contribute any to the magazines, and they 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: routinely made decisions that just made the publications worse. There 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: were executive editors at newspapers I've read and worked for 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: that hadn't written a word in decades, and they made 20 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: calls about the tone and direction of writers that they 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: didn't even bother to read, and they were always looking 22 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: for ways to increase readership. Without actually focusing on what 23 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: made readers read things. When I went into PR in 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, which by the way, I did 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: to move to America, I didn't really understand the job. 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 2: Pretty good at it now, though, I was still able 27 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 2: to keep a lot of my media connections, both at 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: home and the ones i'd met on various press trips 29 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 2: to America. And I saw this sudden and dramatic change 30 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: that was happening to the industry, and it was all 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 2: thanks to the advent of mass social media and digital 32 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: publishing and of course digital advertising. And then over the years, 33 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: I saw the same cycles repeat themselves again and again 34 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: and again. These media executives, they'd see a trend, get 35 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: very horny for it, they jump on it, and nothing 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: would happen, and so they'd move on to the next one, 37 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: and they'd move on to a next one, and they'd 38 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: keep going, and they'd keep dragging media entities into these vast, unprofitable, 39 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: unsustainable quagmires, all in pursuit of you guessed it, growth. 40 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: They were always chasing growth. But what they were actually 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 2: chasing was the magic of the startup valuation. Startups were 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: suddenly being valued at fifty million, one hundred million, a 43 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: billion dollars, and they wanted a little bit of that magic. 44 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 2: They wanted to get even richer than they already were. 45 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: Practically speaking, this meant that outlets were forced by the 46 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: idiotic executives to chase the dragon of social media and 47 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: search traffic, and they'd optimize their content not for a 48 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: person or a living being of any kind, but to 49 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: please algorithms that they didn't control, run by companies like 50 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: Meta and Google who didn't give a shit about them. 51 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: As a result, it's been a fairly apocalyptic decade in journalism. 52 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: Multiple outlets have grown into these massive, unwieldy, unprofitable businesses 53 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: and then relapsed under the weight of executive malpractice. In 54 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 2: the last three years, over thirty thousand people have lost 55 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: their jobs in the media industry or while executives received 56 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: these massive paydays for what appears to be accelerating the 57 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: Titanic into the Iceberg. As private equity and venture capital 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: money is flown into the media industry, so of the 59 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: rotten demands for eternal growth. Brands that you read as 60 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 2: a kid, magazines and newspapers that inspired you, they've become 61 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: shells of the former selves. Or because they've chased these 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: growth metrics, which naturally ostracize and then eventually lay off 63 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: the journalists that made these outlets famous, until, of course, 64 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: the outlet has to shut down due to unforeseen market conditions, 65 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: which is a euphemism for we are too stupid to 66 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: run a business. Sadly, at this point, you'll probably realize 67 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: that things are not going well in the media industry, 68 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: and indeed, twenty twenty four has been one of the 69 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: darkest years in this industry I've ever seen. The first 70 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: high profile media cas twenty twenty four were Sports Illustrated, 71 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: formerly one of the most important brands in sports journalism, 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: and it was slowly choked to death after being sold twice, 73 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: first to Meredith, which acquired it as part of its 74 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: one point eighty five billion dollar acquisition of Time magazine 75 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, and then it was sold again when 76 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: the intellectual property was licensed to Authentic Brands Group, which 77 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: is a holding company, which bought it for one hundred 78 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 2: and ten million dollars. Now you did hear me, Ray, 79 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: They sold the intellectual property, the name Sports Illustrated in 80 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: the logo, and their goal was the insane prospect of 81 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: branding things like medical clinics and gambling businesses. This is 82 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,559 Speaker 2: actually kind of weird precursor to the amount of sports 83 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: betting you'll see in modern sports today now. Meredith Corporation 84 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: would continue to publish Sports Illustrated until about twenty nineteen, 85 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: when Authentic Brands Group would license the editorial operations to 86 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: a company called The Maven as part of a ten 87 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: year licensing deal, and then laid off forty people and 88 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: shifted the editorial strategy away from the deep thoughtful analysis 89 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: that people actually gave a shit about, towards focusing on 90 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: breaking news, the things that people could literally get anywhere. 91 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 2: And while they were doing this, they flooded Sports Illustrated's 92 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: website with this kind of noxious, empty, generic contributed content, 93 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 2: all from affiliate sites run by these poorly vetted contributing bloggers. 94 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: Now no offense to the world of contributing bloggers. There 95 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: are some good ones out there, but in this case 96 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: this was chop shop work. This was done specifically to 97 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: fill the site, it was not built to inform people. 98 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: Thanks to this, Sports Illustrated had spend a few more 99 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: years deteriorating until around December twenty twenty three, when they 100 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: published a piece by a man called Drew Autis, except 101 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: Drew didn't exist. He was one of multiple non existent 102 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: pseudonyms given to content generated by AI. While Sports Illustrated 103 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: initially denied the claims of using AI, they'd fire their CEO, 104 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: Ross Levinson a few weeks later. Now Levinson's of real 105 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: piece of shit. He's a scumbag. He had multiple accusations 106 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: of sexual harassment against him when he was at the 107 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: La Times, their CEO, and while he was there he 108 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: quite literally tried to do exactly the same thing. He 109 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: tried to make the La Times take external contributors. Thankfully, 110 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: strong unions and the eventual acquisition of The Times managed 111 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: to get rid of him. He still managed to get 112 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 2: paid millions. In twenty twenty four, the maven now called 113 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: the Arena Group would lay off most of Sports Illustrated 114 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: staff after failing to pay the licensing fee to Authentic 115 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: Brands Group, which is insane. By the way, you can't 116 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: publish on the website because you didn't pay the dairy 117 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: queen franchise thing. You have to to be called Sports 118 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: Illustrated anyway. The Arena Group claims they'll still keep publishing 119 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,119 Speaker 2: Sports illustrated, but it's not really clear what that's actually 120 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: going to look like considering how unprofitable the Arena group is. 121 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: They had a net loss of fifty million dollars in 122 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 2: the first three quarters at twenty twenty three, and Sports 123 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: ill Frustrated, well, they fired everyone. What's really pissing me 124 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: off though, and this is this whole subject fills me 125 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: through my veins for unearthly poison. Sports Illustrated used to 126 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: be profitable. It was profitable for decades, and the reason 127 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: it got profitable in the fifties was because the managing 128 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: editor was a sports writer. It was also profitable when 129 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: it was acquired in twenty nineteen, and it stayed that 130 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: way through twenty twenty, a year when pretty much every 131 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: business suffered. Its value. Just to be clear, over one 132 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars didn't come from the fact that a 133 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: private equity group sold it to another private equity group, 134 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: though I realized the agree in a group probably wouldn't 135 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: like being called that. Its actual value came from writing important, 136 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: meaningful sports writing from writers like George Plimpton, Curry Kirkpatrick, 137 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: and Emma Bachelari. And it died. It died at the 138 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,119 Speaker 2: hands of people that don't read, don't write, and don't 139 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: understand business journalism is being killed by non journalists that 140 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: are desperate to turn it into another shitty startup ecosystem. 141 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: Less than a month after Sports Illustrated started to collapse, 142 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: there was a new media entity that was actually already 143 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: working on dying. The Messenger was a news outlet that 144 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: raised fifty million dollars in VC money and hired about 145 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: three hundred people, many of them were reporters. In many respects, 146 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: it was not really a news outlet, though it was 147 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: focused on churn. It thought that volume, velocity and just 148 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: lots of stuff was the way that you make a 149 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: big media out there, rather of course, than building a 150 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 2: rapport with readers and adding their trust and making them 151 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 2: like the writing, you know, writing good stuff for people 152 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: like no, no, no, no. You just need lots of things. 153 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: And despite this hefty war chest, it shut down on 154 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: February first, twenty twenty four. And this is the discussing part. 155 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: Workers were left unemployed and uninsured and they didn't even 156 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: get severance. And it's all because, guess what, the executives 157 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: running it didn't know what they were doing. The Messenger 158 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: was doomed from the beginning. The people behind it were 159 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: just complete idiots. Their CEO, Jimmy Finkelstein, made nine hundred 160 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year and they spent eight million dollars 161 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: on office space in New York, DC and Los Angeles, 162 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: which is just crazy. This is the year twenty twenty four. 163 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 2: Why do you have office space for a thing you 164 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: can do at any computer anyway? Anyway, sorry, let me 165 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: calm down. But what really drove it into the ground 166 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: was that they had this very aggressive and extremely stupid 167 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: editorial strategy, and it was all driven by people who 168 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: didn't know what they were doing. All they thought was 169 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: that traffic was good. This goddamn thing didn't have a 170 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: site map. The Messenger, a modern media property, was run 171 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: by people who barely knew how to use a computer. Well, 172 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: let me give you some insight in to some of 173 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 2: the rot inside this company. So after the company collapsed, 174 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: Eli Walsh, who love them or hate him, He was 175 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: a writer at The Messenger, and he built his career 176 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: in California journalism, primarily local stuff. He described this constant 177 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: pressure to produce more content with a lot of it 178 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: just actively ripped off from publications like The Daily Mail 179 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: and The New York Post, two routlets I would not 180 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 2: describe as esteemed. After eight months of working at The Messenger, 181 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: Eli Walsh claimed that he had no usable clips for 182 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: his portfolio as a result of how crap the editorial 183 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: strategy was. Now listeners, if you're wondering why that's so bad, 184 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: even at the worst place I've worked, even the crappiest 185 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: freelance out there, I still get a clip I can use, 186 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: because usually good writing is still published, even if it's 187 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 2: published and edited in a way that you don't like. 188 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: But what The Messenger would publish was this very bland, 189 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: mass appeal, mass produced journalist didn't really say much. And 190 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: it's funny to steal from the Daily Mail considering how 191 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: much of their stuff is viral content stuff or very 192 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 2: shittly written headlines. It's actually really weird that The Messenger 193 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: didn't die quicker, and honestly, the Messenger's chop shop mentality 194 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: was completely nonsensical. But seriously, the demise was avoidable had 195 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: the people in charge actually known what they were doing, 196 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: or say, I don't know talked to a journalist about 197 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: how journalism works. When developing the bloody business model. Fifty 198 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: million dollars is actually quite a lot for a media organization. 199 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: You could have done it a really great job. You 200 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: can run an incredible newsroom with ten, fifteen, twenty people 201 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: fifty million dollars. You'll be able to sustain that for 202 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: a long long time. But they didn't understand that. And 203 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: the problem is that none of these media executives really 204 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 2: understand how great journalism or great anything in media is built. 205 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: They don't understand that trust, reputation, and loyalty are actually 206 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: very hard to quantify. What is easy to quantify, though, 207 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: is revenue growth and page views. You can look at 208 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: page views if you're a colossal Dingus and say, wow, 209 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:21,119 Speaker 2: number go up. Oh, money come in now? Is it profitable? 210 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: Is it actually stuff that people like? Are people returning 211 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: after they click it? Or did you just convince them 212 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: to do so through Google? Who knows the messenger is 213 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: dead now they deleted the whole website. But putting that aside. 214 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: Because these people have no active participation in the process 215 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: of making journalism or creating media, they don't understand how 216 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 2: media outlets are built. They may have been participants, they 217 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: may have been the money, but they were not the writers, 218 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: the speakers, the photographers, the illustrators. They had no part 219 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: of them. But just to be clear, the people involved 220 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: have names. The Messenger was founded and destroyed by a 221 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: man called Jimmy Finkelstein. He's a media tycoon with close 222 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: ties to Rudy Giuliani. And you know what he did 223 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: at the Hill, which he sold for one hundred and 224 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: thirty million dollars. By the way, he used to lean 225 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: over the shoulder of editors and tell them not to 226 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: be so critical of Donald Trump. Fucking gross. It's disgusting 227 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: that these people are allowed to get so rich Finkelstein. 228 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: And by the way, former staff, when talking to The 229 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: Daily Beast, referred to this guy as a sociopath. That 230 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: was deliberately cruel. He paid himself nine hundred thousand dollars 231 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 2: a year while running a newsroom like a sweatshop and 232 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 2: not giving people severance. Fuck you, Jimmy, You're a wrinkly scumbag. 233 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: I can't legally wish anything upon you, but I'll laugh 234 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: if it happens. Sadly, Jimmy Finkelstein isn't the only con 235 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: artist choking the life out of the media industry. There 236 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 2: are some much worse freaks out there. I don't know 237 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: if you've been looking at and it's quite painful to watch, 238 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: but for years I've been watching Vice die. Vice used 239 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: to be one of my favorite publications. Motherboard did some 240 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 2: of the best tech journalism out there, and actually four 241 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 2: or four Media is a lot of the former motherblog. 242 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: People go pay them money. But on February twenty second, 243 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, Vice announced it would no longer publish 244 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: written content to any of its flagship publications, which included 245 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: Vice dot Com, their regional sites, or indeed Motherboard. Hundreds 246 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: of people lost their jobs as a result. It's a 247 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: disgraceful end to this publication. It was once like this 248 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: indie punk magazine built in Montreal. It was something cool, 249 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: it was something weird. You could kind of mock it, 250 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: you kind of laugh at it. But Ice did cool 251 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: share and then over the course of years, it was 252 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: infiltrated and rotted out by private equity adjacent freaks that 253 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: don't write or read or create anything, and it turned 254 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: into this giant, unprofitable, unsustainable, seven billion dollar behemoth. And 255 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: you'd think that growth for it would be good, that 256 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: more people would be reading Vice's journalism. Yeah, that would 257 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: assume that journalism was the product that Vice actually wanted 258 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: to sell. Though people do make fun of Vice's kind 259 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: of foe gonzo I took drugs and walked down the 260 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: street style journalism. Actually a lot of their stuff was 261 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: incredible reporting. Simon of Strovsky's coverage of the earliest days 262 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: of the Russo Ukrainian War culminated in him being arrested 263 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: and held captive by separatists in Dombas. It was really 264 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: important work at a time when you really understood what 265 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: was going on with that conflict. Ostrovsky's work ended up 266 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: getting Vice to Emmy nominations as well as a couple 267 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: of webbe awards, and it was seen quite rightly by 268 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: the way as a time when digital journalism was finally 269 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: challenging broadcasts kind of monopoly over conflict and foreign policy reporting. 270 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: It was a really impressive thing that Vice did, and 271 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: it was at a time when people, I don't know 272 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: what kind of surprised by Vice's ability to do it, 273 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: and they shouldn't have been. They were a home to 274 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: some amazing journalists. I said, n uncanny ability to get 275 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: into some of the world's most isolated and frankly dangerous 276 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: places and even make it out alive. Good example is 277 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: they did a story on Siberian lumber camps where North 278 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: Korean workers were being worked to death to make money 279 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: for the country. They did another one on the Syrian 280 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: city of Raka, which in twenty fifteen was the capital 281 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: of the Islamic States self proclaimed caliphate. Weis did important 282 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: work every single day, and then they did fun stuff, 283 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: because not all journalists needs to be world changing. It 284 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: just needs to be interesting and fun and full of love. 285 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: And unlike many so many outlets, ICE actually made money 286 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: and it could have been profitable, but it never seemed 287 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: to get there. And while there's no single reason why, 288 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: it mostly comes down to pursuing growth and executive greed. 289 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: Weiss as it grew into this seven billion dollar creature, 290 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: it took on all of this debt. It wanted to 291 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: be a global media empire and expanded in an aggressive, 292 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: deeply unsustainable way, and it made these terrible, awful bets 293 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: branded content, shitty video or while doing this ridiculous dance 294 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: of paying their executives insane money and laying people off 295 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 2: at the same time. And this was a big problem 296 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 2: for this out there executive compensation was always high, even 297 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: when the company was not paying its utility bills or 298 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: paying out severance. It would take these deals with investors 299 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: where they guaranteed dividends regardless of how the company was doing. 300 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: Just to be clear, on a business level, that is insane. 301 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 2: You don't make a deal you can't reliably pay very 302 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: basic business unless, of course, you don't really care about 303 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: the business succeeding or surviving. And then they would do 304 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: these very annoying branded content deals. Good example of one 305 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: is they did a twenty fourteen deal with Absolute Vodka, 306 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: which kind of made everyone feel a little greasy, and 307 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: then they did a partnership with the South Government. It's 308 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: not particularly punk rock, and it's definitely not suggestive of 309 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: any great editorial independence. To be clear, the people writing 310 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: Advice were victims of this. If you're looking for somebody 311 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 2: to blame, you can start with Corey Haike, who is 312 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: Vice's chief operating officer. Before joining Vice, she co led 313 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: Mike a publication she drove into the ground, and she 314 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: did so by moving it away from this kind of hip. 315 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 2: Young really actually beloved journalism. People loved Mike, and then 316 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 2: she took it and said, ah, well, Facebook is saying 317 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: that we're getting all of these views and all of 318 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: this engagement on video on Facebook, so let's pivot the 319 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: entire thing to video. Now, the pivot to video that 320 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: Facebook pushed is enough for an entire episode, But the 321 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: long story short was that Facebook incorrectly showed massive growth 322 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: metrics that did not exist to publishers. This led publications 323 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: like Mike and actually Mashable to massively move their traditorial 324 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: strategies around to make video content. Now you may think, huh, 325 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: couldn't you just avoid this by seeing if it made 326 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: any money? And no, she didn't do that. She wrote 327 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: an empty headed Vox article about how the future of 328 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: journalism was visual, and then she laid off most of 329 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 2: the staff and sold the IP to a company called 330 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 2: bust All that is best known for buying IP and 331 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: running crappy journalism on them. There are some good publications 332 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: that run on the bus or network. It certainly wasn't 333 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: doing what Mike was doing at the time. Corey Hike 334 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: is an example of the media world's failure to police itself. 335 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 2: She is a career failure. This is now the second 336 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: publication she's driven into the ground because she does not 337 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 2: understand what she is doing, and that op ed I 338 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: previously mentioned the twenty seventeen Vox one she claimed that 339 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: we were in the early stages of a visual revolution 340 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: in journalism. To be clear, Corey Hike is not a journalist. 341 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: She's not an editor. She's not a creator. She's not 342 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: a creative. She doesn't write things, she doesn't speak things, 343 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: she doesn't take photos, and she doesn't draw things. She 344 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: is a parasite. And these walking stains on the earth. 345 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 2: They got rich. They got rich as hundreds of people 346 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: lost their jobs. Bankruptcy filings showed that Vice executives paid 347 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: themselves eleven million dollars between May twenty twenty two and 348 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 2: May twenty twenty three. Corey Hike paid herself over seven 349 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty six thousand dollars, and former chief people 350 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: officer Daisy Orga Dominguez made over seven hundred and forty 351 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: eight thousand dollars during this period. By the way, writer 352 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 2: Joseph Cox said that he was unable to pay the 353 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: ten cent fee to pull a court record because Vice 354 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 2: wasn't paying their bills. If you want to blame someone 355 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 2: for the destruction of modern journalism. People like Corey Haike 356 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: and mis Orga Dominguez. They're the people to blame. These 357 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: are the people that are being allowed to make the 358 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: cause on these vacuous pools of data that don't make sense. 359 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: And they don't make sense because they have no connection 360 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: to the newsroom. They're not writing anything, they're not reading anything. 361 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 2: They're not part of the media other than the fact 362 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: that they are in commanding positions in the media. They 363 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 2: are landlords by another name, and they're rich. They're unfathomably rich, 364 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: all because they conned their way into different jobs that 365 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: allow them to fail upwards again and again. Worse still, 366 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 2: they don't have any ideas, which is why they so 367 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: often do stupid things. It's why they're doing this same 368 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: ridiculous cycle again and again where they take a media 369 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: out there and they try and run it like a 370 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: tech startup, and they don't see the difference between running 371 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 2: an app that sells a service and a media company 372 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: that makes content that people consume or creates a relationship 373 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 2: with the audience. Trust, authenticity, These are the things at 374 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: the heart of the media, and readers are very sensitive 375 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: to changes. They are not stupid, and I think that 376 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: these executives believe they are. They believe that readers are 377 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 2: little pigs that will come and click anything that can 378 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 2: be tricked and conned. Executives that believe readers are like 379 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: that deserve to not have jobs, by the way, But 380 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: what they don't realize is that media outlets are also delicate. 381 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: If you mess with the formula of media outlets, you're 382 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: going to alienate the people who actually read them, the 383 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: people who pay your bills, either by subscribing or by 384 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: proxy by clicking and looking at ads. And it sucks. 385 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: It sucks because all of this is very obvious. I'm 386 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: sure many of you listening are like, Yeah, that makes sense. 387 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: Surely you would not run an outlet by making worse 388 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 2: stuff but lots of it. Surely you would make a 389 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: good outlet that makes good things. But that's the thing. Look, 390 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: if you're no longer concern with loyalty, and you really 391 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: only care about people who accidentally find a page by 392 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: being tricked by so sure they see a headline they like, 393 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: or perhaps they search for something, you don't really care 394 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: about alienating readers. You can do whatever you want. You 395 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: can experiment Willy nilly. You can underminde editorial standards, you 396 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: can lay off people, you can promote your friends, you 397 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: can force people to do stupid shit that nobody likes, 398 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: because all you care about are analytics. All you care 399 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 2: about is that ephemeral, random, spontaneous traffic that you can 400 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: show to your idiot rich friends and say, wow, my 401 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: outlet's popping off. And when all you give a shit 402 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 2: about is visits and impressions, all you're really going to 403 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: focus on is what's going to please the big tech 404 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: firms like Meta, Twitter and Google, and these social networks 405 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: have been very clear in how little they care about 406 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: news unless it helps them get traffic. And indeed, the 407 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: early days of these social networks were heavily dependent on 408 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: media outlets creating content for them so that people stayed 409 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: on them, and then they choked that traffic the moment 410 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 2: they didn't need anymore. The network effects that these executives 411 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: are chasing, the social virality, the Google search positioning, they 412 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: make the number go up. And if that's all that matters, well, 413 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: you don't really care about having a lasting web presence. 414 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 2: You don't really care about a sustainable media outlet. You're 415 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: just an online marketing company that publishes words or videos, 416 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: and frankly, I can't think of a more damaging part 417 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 2: of the media than the chase of these metrics, and 418 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: specifically search engine optimization. The allure of search traffic, especially 419 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: with the drop of traffic from social media websites, has 420 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: just poisoned so much of the media, and now publishers 421 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: create content. It's not really there to serve an audience, 422 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: per se or build a relationship, but to kind of 423 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: get this spurious traffic. The when does the super Bowl start? 424 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 2: What time does this go live? Where can I buy something? 425 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 2: You've probably seen these and wondered why so many out 426 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: let's publish the same thing. I'll get to that. So 427 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: if you see all of these websites that have like 428 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: when's the super Bowl start? And top ten televisions, all 429 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: of these things, and you see them, you're like, this 430 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. I'm used to reading long form things 431 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 2: on here. It's because those have embedded links, sometimes to 432 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 2: Amazon or Walmart or Best Buy. Those outlets get a 433 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: slither of money every time you click, and they get 434 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 2: a little more as you browse around the site if 435 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: you buy something. Now there are very trustworthy outlets engaging 436 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: in this, and it's a way to make money for 437 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 2: the media out there. There are some like the Wirecutter 438 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: who actually do a phenomenal job. They do very deep 439 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: product testing. Later on in this podcast, I'm actually going 440 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 2: to get into some of the scumbags in the industry, 441 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 2: but there are trustworthy folks that make money on this. 442 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: The problem is you can also make money by not 443 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: making any effort at all, and I will get to that. 444 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: And the result of this chase of metrics is a 445 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 2: media industry and crisis executives and editors that don't really 446 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 2: read or write and don't remember the last time they 447 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 2: published anything. They're twisting reporters coverage to make Google happy, 448 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: and all they want to do is improve traffic and 449 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: get advertising. That's all there is to it. And yes, 450 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: I understand that there's money that needs to be made 451 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: to pay people's salaries, but so much of the Internet 452 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: is becoming content that looks and sounds the same. And 453 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: like I said, those affiliate marketing deals, they make money 454 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: even when you just do a half fast effort of 455 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: saying I like this TV. And what happens when everyone 456 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 2: chases the same dragon is nobody's really happy. People aren't 457 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: really coming to your website for the top ten best apps. 458 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: They're not coming to be told, hey, these are the 459 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: best deals. They might enjoy those, they might use them, 460 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: but that's not what's keeping them there. And yes' seeing 461 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 2: so much of that because those in power are not 462 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: actually looking at the outlets. They're not reading these websites. 463 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: They're not even really consuming the media. They're not on 464 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: social media, they're not on anything other than maybe the 465 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: New York Times and CNN. The people running the media 466 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: don't participate, not as customers and frankly not as workers. 467 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: And these people they only really understand the media as 468 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 2: a series of symbols, shadows on the cave. They don't 469 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: really see it beyond the numbers, and they think that 470 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 2: at some point money comes out due to words and 471 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: writing and video. Maybe they don't really care well how 472 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 2: that forms, as long as the money keeps coming, even 473 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: if the money stops one day. This poor decision making 474 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: almost always leads to overstaffing and frankly, general mismanagement. Any 475 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: form of creative media, anything you see, any great outlet 476 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: you have seen, requires a very basic understanding of audience 477 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: and an audience. Takes time, and it takes energy, and 478 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 2: it takes working on this. I am sure in fifteen 479 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: episodes I will be a lot better than this. I'm 480 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 2: sure fifteen after that, I'll be better than that. And thankfully, 481 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: I hope I'm good enough now for you to listen 482 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: to and you'll stick around and hear me get better. 483 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: But because of the way that Cool Zone media works, 484 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 2: I will have that chance. I'm not being told I 485 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: have to hit a quota. I'm being told to get 486 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: in this studio and talk and produce great things, hopefully. 487 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 2: But that's the problem. That's the problem when you don't 488 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: create anything, when you're a parasite, when you're someone that 489 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: steals from others. The Messengers a great example here, by 490 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: the way. So they hired about three hundred reporters, and 491 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: a lot of them were very well established, well respected 492 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: reporters from like major outlets, and then they took these great, skilled, 493 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 2: wonderful people and they said, please repurpose other people's work. 494 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: Mentioned already the Daily Mail, New York Post as examples 495 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: of place they took from. This doesn't really make sense 496 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: to even a regular person, But when you're a kind 497 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: of soft brain media executive, and all you care about 498 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 2: is short term growth, and you want to see number 499 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: go up immediately. All you care about is scale, So 500 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: all you're going to do is put out masses of chum. 501 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: And it sucks. It sucks because they're so wrong. And 502 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: what's insane is these executives they're blind to the actual 503 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: success stories of the media. I'm thinking of worker owned 504 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 2: outlets like Defector four O four media Aftermath, and I 505 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 2: don't know many of the successful, profitable newsletters like Newcomer 506 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: and Platformer that have done incredibly well with incredibly small staffs. 507 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: Because guess what, people don't want the same shit in 508 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 2: a different flavor. They want informed opinion. They want it 509 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: from fallible, imperfect people. They want to know they're hearing 510 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: from a person. They want something that has emotion in it. 511 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: That's why people pay for journalism, That's why people read. 512 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: While there is a degree of service journalism to tell 513 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: you what happened, a lot of great writing is emotional. Defector. 514 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: They're actually a really interesting one as well. They're successful, 515 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 2: they're profitable, and they cover more than just sports. Despite 516 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: being a sports website, their sports and culture and their 517 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: staff came from a website called dead Spin. Now, dead 518 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: Spin is hilarious. I used to write there. I love 519 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 2: dead Spin. Dead Spin was a sports and culture site. 520 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: They wrote about sports and then other things. Drew McGarry 521 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 2: did a famous thing about the time when he collapsed 522 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: and something was wrong with his brain. For example, there 523 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: were some wonderful things on there that were completely unrelated 524 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: to sport. When the private equity shuffles as a result 525 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: of Peter Teal's lawsuit against Gorka happened, a company called 526 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: Geomedia took over. And they're complete moron of an executive. 527 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 2: Jim Spamfeller he fired Barry to pachet Ski because he 528 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 2: refused to make Dead Spins staff stick to sports. Now, 529 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: Jim Spamfeller is a complete moron. And I know you 530 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: shouldn't just insult people in the podcast, but he's a 531 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: he's a dingus. He's a complete numpty. And you may ask, huh, well, 532 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 2: based on looking at Defector and indeed based on being 533 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: able to look at the economics of dead Spin when 534 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: he owned it, wouldn't you, spamfella just want to let 535 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 2: them keep writing and doing stuff in the exceedingly popular 536 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: way that everyone loved and the answer is that Jim 537 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: Spanfeller is a fucking idiot that doesn't understand journalism or business. 538 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 2: And indeed, many times you will see stories like this, 539 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: he'd be like, I don't get it. How did it 540 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: fall apart? And the answer is usually that Jim Spanfeller 541 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: he wanted dead Spin to be like any other sports 542 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: out there. Yet the whole reason people read dead Spin, 543 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: and indeed read and pay for Defector, was because it 544 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: approached sports without the kind of very strong boundaries that 545 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 2: restricted the outlets like ESPN or NBC Sports, which they 546 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: have their place now. Jim Spaanfeller and his type of people, 547 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: they'll never understand that the well doesn't need another content meal. 548 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: We don't need more aggregations of aggregations of aggregations of 549 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: another outlet's aggregation. And though this content, when engineered in 550 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: the precise way that Google likes, may indeed get traffic 551 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: from search, and it may be quote unquote popular, it 552 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that anyone's coming back. You're not building loyalty 553 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 2: another In March, Deadspin was sold again, this time to 554 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,239 Speaker 2: a startup called line Up of Publishing. A little bit 555 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: painful when you think about the raw economy there, and 556 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 2: they're based in Malta, which is a business retreat for 557 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: tax dodgers but also known for cryptocurrency startups and more 558 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: worrying in this case, European gambling firms. An investigation by 559 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: Sean Keeley over at Tedium found numerous connections between Deadspin's 560 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 2: new owner and various online casinos, which heavily suggests that 561 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: it's going to become not a sports website but a 562 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 2: website for affiliate marketing for gambling sites. And what sucks 563 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: about that is kind of the way that sports in 564 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: general is going. You're going to be able to bet 565 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: on MBA games from their app, for example. It's a 566 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: terrible press them, but also a terrible thing to happen 567 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: to one of the greatest sports websites to ever run. Ever, 568 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: but don't worry, Jim Spanfeller still has several other websites 569 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: to fuck up, and in this case, he's currently working 570 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: on destroying Kataku now. Kataku was previously one of the 571 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: most well respected gaming publications of the world, and they 572 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: were sold to Geomedia as part of the Gorka lawsuit 573 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: last week. As reported by Aftermaths, Gita Jackson and Riley McLeod. 574 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: Kataku editor in chief Jen Glennan resigned after Geomedia executives 575 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 2: decided to change Kataku's remit from publishing news and opinions 576 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 2: about video games, the whole thing that made them famous, 577 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: to creating and this is the real number, by the way, 578 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: fifty game guides a week on a staff of seven people. 579 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 2: Kataku is or I guess was an institution in the 580 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 2: gaming industry, and it was built off the back of 581 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: publishing thoughtful, timely about games and very personal personal pieces 582 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: about video games, an industry well known and pretty much 583 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 2: the only other one other than sports that can really 584 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: have a genuine feeling of nostalgia and the writing. They're 585 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 2: turning away from that, and they're turning it into what 586 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: will just become another seo chop shop. And it's all 587 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 2: thanks to Jim Spanfeller, a man who cannot run businesses. 588 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,959 Speaker 2: He's going to turn Kataku into just another seo slop dump, 589 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 2: another place where you can answer questions about where to 590 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 2: go in a game when you're stuck, Oh, how do 591 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: I make cloud Strife go nude? Oh how do I 592 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 2: beat Sefrov. At some point in FF seven, Jim Spanfeller 593 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 2: has never played a video game at any point, so 594 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 2: I don't think he knows that there is no way 595 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 2: to make cloud nude, but indeed doesn't know anything about gaming. 596 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: He doesn't know anything about games. He doesn't know anything 597 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 2: about writing, because like all of these people I've been 598 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 2: talking about, Jim Spanfeller does not actually know anything about 599 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 2: the company he runs, and it's disgraceful. Gaming is a 600 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 2: multi trillion dollar industry. Gaming is something that's so important 601 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 2: to culture. You have the weirdest, most reclusive people and 602 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: incredibly popular sports stars who all play the same games. 603 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 2: This is one of the most dominant forces in culture. 604 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 2: And this idiot is taking Kataku, which has had a 605 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 2: crazed history. It has had a lot of controversy, but 606 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 2: it's popular, it's meaningful. Writers from Kataku have gone on 607 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 2: to found things like Polygon, another influential and in this case, 608 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 2: Vox Media owned property. After Math was founded by several 609 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: people who have written at Kataku. This outlet created in 610 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 2: some level modern games journalism, and now it's going to 611 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 2: have the same value as game FAQ's, except worse because 612 00:35:52,960 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 2: people on Gamefaq's actually play games much like sports Illustrated, Darkland, Deadspin. 613 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: They're going to become something I call a shit of 614 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 2: theseus situation when an illustrious brand has its guts ripped out, 615 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 2: replaced with the thoughts and the feelings and the ideas 616 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 2: of a huge moron. And it's so stupid, it's so frustrating, 617 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,439 Speaker 2: and until something changes, it's only going to get worse. 618 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,479 Speaker 2: And I know I'm angry, and you should be angry 619 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 2: to I'm furious these people, those of them who are 620 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: not my friends, are just people I've enjoyed reading. People 621 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: have lost their jobs because the media industry is being 622 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: run into the ground by people that do not know 623 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: how to read, write, or even run a business. Every 624 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: outlet that you read today that kind of feels like 625 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 2: a shadow of its former self, there's a reason it's 626 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 2: got there because the people in charge don't read, don't write, 627 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 2: they don't contribute. They're not media creators. They are parasites, 628 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 2: as I've discussed, and their remit is not to create 629 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 2: a lasting legacy, to make something that people read for years. 630 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: They are trying to turn that outlet into a shitty 631 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: startup that they can flog to someone. Except these things 632 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 2: never sell ever. And that's because, on top of being idiots, 633 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: they do not understand any kind of business at all. 634 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 2: And the reason that a lot of these executives just 635 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 2: can't understand it and they can't understand why things succeed 636 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 2: and their properties fail is because they don't really want 637 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 2: to accept that. You can't grow a media business like 638 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 2: a startup or like any kind of regular business. You 639 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 2: still need a profit and a loss, but it takes 640 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 2: time and you have to invest that time as much 641 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 2: as you have to invest that money. Media outlets grow 642 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: and I'm paraphrasing Coulso Media's Robert Evans, they grow by 643 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: hosting the work of journalists that people love and giving 644 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 2: them the time to develop a following and make it, 645 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: make that great stuff, to refine their craft to be 646 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: great even if they're not quite there. Through mentorship and 647 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 2: through just doing the work. Our sister show, better offline 648 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 2: sister Show, it could happen here. It took years to 649 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: develop it into what it is today, which by the way, 650 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 2: it's a profitable podcast and it gets millions of downloads 651 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 2: a month. And it got there because Robert and Sophie 652 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 2: put in the time and the money, and so did 653 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio of course, to give these voices the chance to 654 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 2: grow and to help them grow comfortable, especially with media 655 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: that involves you being exposed to the world by talking 656 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: or by being on video. So much of that is 657 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 2: growing comfortable with the format and finding what works specifically 658 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 2: for you. And then once you've done that, you have 659 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: to build a rapport with the audience. So I hope 660 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm doing today, and none of this can be forced. 661 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: You can't accelerate this process. Perhaps, as Roberts also said, 662 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: you can get these big, unique scoops that get people 663 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 2: through the door, but you have to keep making stuff 664 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 2: and you have to keep refining it too, And none 665 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 2: of these executives like that because you can't tell that 666 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: to a private equity firm. You can't tell a private 667 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 2: equity firm to wait and be patient. They're not in 668 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 2: the business of patients. Venture capital doesn't want to hear 669 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: that it's going to take a while, and a non 670 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 2: specific while at that to get their money out. They 671 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: want money now, money me, money now. And what's really 672 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 2: sick and ironic about this is they're not making money 673 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 2: from this. BuzzFeed went public, it was horrible mess. Vice 674 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 2: has been running too the ground. And sure, these people 675 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: have made a bunch of money off of the back 676 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 2: of others, but they've also destroyed something meaningful and this 677 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 2: will color their legacies for the rest of their lives. 678 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 2: Maybe they don't care. I don't know. I hope they do. 679 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 2: Hope they don't sleep at night. Jimmy Finkelstein gets visited 680 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: by the ghosts from I'm Up at Christmas Carol, specifically 681 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 2: Maley and Marley. I think that'd be kind of funny 682 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 2: putting that joke aside. Though these people shouldn't be allowed 683 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: to walk down the street without geting yelled at in 684 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 2: a perfectly legal way. That I'm not encouraging anything illegal, 685 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 2: of course, but I find within myself a great deal 686 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 2: of poison for them. I find them disgraceful because Motley, 687 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 2: they had a good thing. Had Wece been run sustainably, 688 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 2: had they really focused on making it a profitable out there, 689 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 2: they could have what four O four Media is doing today. 690 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,399 Speaker 2: And then some four or four Media is worker owned 691 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 2: business made by people Jessin Kobler and Emmanuel Maiberg who 692 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 2: left Wess, who left Motherboard. Weis used to own four 693 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: A four Media. They used to these people used to 694 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 2: work for Vice, and now four o four Media has 695 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 2: had major scoops that are changing the entire tech industry. 696 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 2: They are the ones that published the Google Search is 697 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 2: getting Worse story. They are continually getting these scoops doing 698 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 2: great journalism, and they're going to probably become a very 699 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,439 Speaker 2: successful and profitable business. Weiss could have had that Vice 700 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 2: literally had that, Jim Spamfeller had dead Spin. None of 701 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 2: these people realize what they've got even after it's gone. 702 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 2: And maybe they just want that short term bang. May 703 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: they just want a little tittle of money so they 704 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 2: can feel rich and nasty and hang around with their 705 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 2: other asshole friends. And I find them despicable. If I 706 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: meet any of them, I want to make some very 707 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 2: creative noises in their faces. And it sucks. It sucks 708 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 2: because the real human consequences fall upon the actual people 709 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 2: making them rich, the people creating stuff, the people talking, 710 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 2: taking photos and drawing things and writing things. They are 711 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: the victims of this. The people who should be the victims, 712 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 2: the people who shouldn't make a dollar, are the ones 713 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 2: making the money. They are the ones who stay rich, 714 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 2: stay powerful, and will probably fail upwards into another media 715 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 2: job and that's the thing. Thanks to these people, the 716 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 2: media industry is spent over a decade fucking around, and 717 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 2: now they're finding out and the journalists are paying these executives. 718 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 2: They've spent this time and they built this foundation, this 719 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 2: massive search and social based foundation, and it's made on 720 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 2: top of sand. And they're desperate, so they change strategy, 721 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 2: and they change strategy again, and they do so to 722 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 2: please algorithms, not people. They've completely forgotten or maybe they 723 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 2: did not know that every success, every previous success in 724 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 2: the media has pretty much come from a small group 725 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 2: of opinionated people with good ideas who create cool shit. 726 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 2: And really that's the only salvation for journalism. Mon Journalism 727 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 2: can be rebuilt, but rebuilding it will take reinforcing the 728 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 2: relationship between writers and their audiences, and media properties need 729 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 2: to help foster that and empower that relationship instead of 730 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 2: trying to get rid of that, instead of turning everything 731 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 2: into a brand to be sold to private equity. We 732 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 2: can work back. We can get back what has been 733 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 2: lost by supporting unions in newsrooms, by supporting and paying 734 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 2: for worker owned journalism, you can bring back great journalism. 735 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,720 Speaker 2: You can turn this tide the private equitis will eventually 736 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 2: lose because at some point that right now they're exceedingly 737 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 2: dependent on Google Search. Everyone chasing search engine optimization is 738 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 2: dead in the water. Eventually, Google and Facebook they turned 739 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 2: on the news before. You don't think they'll do it again. 740 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 2: You don't think that Google will eventually tweak the algorithm 741 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,760 Speaker 2: in some obscene way to turn away from this generic slop. 742 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 2: When that happens, sadly, once again, journalists will be the 743 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 2: ones that suffer, which is why right now journalists should unionize. 744 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 2: It's tough, but if it possible, they should join worker 745 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 2: owned co ops like Flaming Hydra. They should join these 746 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 2: great organizations. Look up to things like Defecta and see 747 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 2: the wonderful journalists and they're doing day in, day out, 748 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 2: People like Ray Rato. He's a fantastic journalist, an esteemed 749 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 2: Bay Area reporter, and he's done some of the best 750 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 2: work of his career at Defector and he's done so 751 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 2: because it's owned by him and the rest of the writers. 752 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 2: The people building are the people that should own stuff. Now. 753 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 2: I feel we are a bit crazy whenever I talk 754 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 2: about this subject, and I think it's because great journalism 755 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 2: and great writing is foundational the culture. Hearing an informed 756 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 2: opinion doesn't matter where they're at, if they're at a blog, 757 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 2: if there are a newspaper, if they're on TV. Hearing 758 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 2: someone who actually knows what they're talking about, speaking from 759 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 2: the heart, who's developed a relationship with you as a reader, 760 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 2: is transformational. It changes people's lives, and great opinion journalism does. 761 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 2: On top of that, and everything that I am doing 762 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 2: my PR firm, my newsletter, my podcast is a result 763 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,399 Speaker 2: of having great mentors in journalism like Will porter Over 764 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,239 Speaker 2: at PC Zone and log and Steve Hogarty, people that 765 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 2: were there to help me as an early writer, to 766 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 2: help me, encourage me to develop my voice, the voice 767 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,959 Speaker 2: you were hearing today. None of this crazed confidence comes 768 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 2: from myself. It comes from having great mentors like Sophie 769 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,879 Speaker 2: and Rob Over at caols OH Media, like David Roth, 770 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 2: a defector. These people are the reason that people read websites. 771 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 2: It's the reason they listen to podcasts. It isn't because 772 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 2: of virality or search engine optimization or any other little 773 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 2: bits of bullshit that people like Jim Spanfeller and Corey 774 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 2: Height claim is the case. The answer to fixing journalism 775 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,280 Speaker 2: is simple. It's just annoying to growth at all cost. Catalysts. 776 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,399 Speaker 2: Profitable sustainable journalism or any content really is built off 777 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 2: the back of letting people with defined voices build and 778 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 2: sustain an audience. Every single success story, every single great 779 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 2: newspaper and website was the result of letting great creators 780 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 2: create great things and giving them the space and platform 781 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,560 Speaker 2: and time and funding to do so. If you want 782 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 2: the next great media outlet, it isn't going to come 783 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 2: through tricking Google or Twitter or Facebook or Instagram into 784 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 2: reading your stories. It's about making great shit and getting 785 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 2: people to see it, and making sure that the people 786 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 2: making it feel supported and mentored and helped to make 787 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 2: more of it. I believe there is an absolute mountain 788 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 2: of money right now in journalism for investors capable of 789 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 2: thinking more than six seconds ahead of course, give writers 790 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 2: the space and the time, and that time may be 791 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 2: measured in years, to build audiences and develop relationships with 792 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 2: their readers. Embrace their individuality and pay them well for 793 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,720 Speaker 2: the privilege of having them speak on your behalf. Build 794 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,319 Speaker 2: for readers, not investors, and you will make way more 795 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 2: money than you ever would licensing a brand like a 796 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,759 Speaker 2: god damn Denny's franchise. Things can get better for journalism. 797 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,680 Speaker 2: I promise you they will if only the money and 798 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,280 Speaker 2: the power is put in the hands of actual writers 799 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 2: and actual creators rather than career failures and private equity dipshits. 800 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 2: But until there is a significant realignment, that something meaningfully 801 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 2: changes in media, one that puts the power back in 802 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 2: the hands of the people actually creating stuff and focuses 803 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 2: on the things that they create, We're gonna see this 804 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 2: cycle repeat again and again and again, and I'm gonna 805 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 2: get angry. And you should be angry too. I hate 806 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 2: to tell people to be angry. I hate anger in general, 807 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,720 Speaker 2: but in this case it's justifiable. This is a singular 808 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 2: force damaging culture and enriching assholes. Do not believe them, 809 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 2: Do not trust them that any of this was caused 810 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 2: by market forces or anything other than the mass incompetence 811 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 2: of assholes running media into the ground. Thank you for listening. 812 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and 813 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 2: composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You 814 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 2: can check out more of his music and audio projects 815 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 2: at Matasowski dot com. M A T T O s 816 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 2: O W s KI dot com. You can email me 817 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 2: at easy at better offline dot com or check out 818 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 2: better offline dot com to find my newsletter and more 819 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 2: links to this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. 820 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For 821 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,280 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 822 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 823 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.