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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of Couch

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Speaker 1: Talks on You Need Therapy podcast. My name is Kat.

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Speaker 1: I am the host and if you are not familiar

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Speaker 1: with what couch Talks is, it is the special bonus

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Speaker 1: episode of You Need Therapy Podcasts where I answer questions

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Speaker 1: that you guys send to me and you can send

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Speaker 1: those two Katherine at therapy podcast dot com. We always

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Speaker 1: keep the questions anonymous, and we usually throw back some

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Speaker 1: questions with the question because just like our Monday episodes,

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Speaker 1: actually even more than our Monday episodes and some answering

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Speaker 1: questions that you guys are sending to me, we want

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Speaker 1: to reiterate that this podcast does not serve as a

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Speaker 1: replacement or a substitute for actual mental health services. And

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Speaker 1: with that, it's still allowed to help and it's still

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Speaker 1: allowed to be helpful, and you're still allowed to take

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Speaker 1: things and apply them to your own life from this podcast. So,

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Speaker 1: like I said, we always keep the questions anonymous so

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Speaker 1: you can feel safe sending in your question. We usually

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Speaker 1: do one a week, and this week we are going

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Speaker 1: to go with that theme. So this week's question is

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Speaker 1: really simple, really to the point, which makes it a

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Speaker 1: little bit difficult to really answer in a detailed way

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Speaker 1: because there are so many things they don't know about

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Speaker 1: what's going on here. It's actually a two sentence email,

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Speaker 1: which I do actually appreciate the straight to the pointness

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Speaker 1: of this, and I also I appreciate it because it

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Speaker 1: is such a general question. It's something that I think

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Speaker 1: can apply to a lot more people. And I just

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Speaker 1: want to say with that, there's so much that I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I can't answer because it's so general.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to just do the best we can. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this email says, Hey, kat, I just listened to

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Speaker 1: your episode on narcissism. How do you get out of

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Speaker 1: it if you feel like you're already into deep in

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Speaker 1: a relationship standpoint? And that was it. So this person's

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Speaker 1: referring to the podcast episode. I assume that we did

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Speaker 1: so long ago, and I'll post it and put it

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Speaker 1: in the show notes and all that, so you guys

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Speaker 1: can go back and listen to it if you haven't yet.

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Speaker 1: I've done a couple episodes on narcissism. One was a

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Speaker 1: more generic which I imagine this is what that's from. And

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Speaker 1: then I did another episode I think last year that

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Speaker 1: was more tied to narcissism in the workplace. Both of

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Speaker 1: those are I think helpful episodes, but I think that's

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Speaker 1: the first one is probably the one that this listener

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Speaker 1: is referring to. And what I'm going to do today

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Speaker 1: is keep this really simple, because we can get really

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Speaker 1: caught up in the weeds of narcissism. And before I

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Speaker 1: say anything else, I want to reiterate that there is

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Speaker 1: not one right answer or one right protocol for this situation,

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Speaker 1: especially because it's so general. What I can do is

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Speaker 1: offer nal pieces of information and encouragement. And narcissism is

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Speaker 1: also something that is really thrown around a lot, I

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Speaker 1: think carelessly. I'm not saying that this is what this

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Speaker 1: listener did. I just think we use that word has

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Speaker 1: almost become a word for a jerk or somebody who

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Speaker 1: is manipulative or something like. In general, we throw that

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Speaker 1: around a lot. And I think that the reason we

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Speaker 1: hear this word thrown out so often and somewhat carelessly

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Speaker 1: in certain areas is because we do have more education

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Speaker 1: and resources and understanding of what narcissism is, and so

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Speaker 1: we are looking at it more than we are used to.

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Speaker 1: It's just in our culture. It's a word that is

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Speaker 1: more in our culture, and we're understanding that it's more

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Speaker 1: prevalent than we thought. And our culture also has a pattern,

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Speaker 1: especially right now, of overgeneralizing things. So, like I said,

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Speaker 1: every jerk is a narcissist, every person who lies is gaslating.

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Speaker 1: We tend to just automatically go there because it's nice

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Speaker 1: to have a name for something, it's nice to be

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Speaker 1: able to understand something. The problem is, just because a

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Speaker 1: jerk is a jerk, it doesn't mean they's a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: And just because somebody is lying, it doesn't mean they're

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Speaker 1: gas setting. It's more nuanced than that, and that's really

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Speaker 1: hard to communicate and teach through a avenue like a

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Speaker 1: podcast or a YouTube video or an Instagram post. We

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Speaker 1: learn about these things and these ideas through studying them,

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Speaker 1: through asking tons of questions, through really researching and getting

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Speaker 1: deep and sitting with them. So it just gets a

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Speaker 1: little dicey. So I'm just saying that because I want

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Speaker 1: us to be careful with how far we're going now.

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Speaker 1: Oftentimes there are narcissists and we do end up in

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Speaker 1: relationships with them. And the other thing is somebody doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to be a full on narcissist for us to

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Speaker 1: not want to be in a relationship with them. If

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Speaker 1: somebody is manipulative, if somebody does lie a lot, then

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Speaker 1: that is allowed to be reason enough you to want

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Speaker 1: to exit that relationship, because that is going to bleed

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Speaker 1: toxicity into the relationship, whether or not this person has

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Speaker 1: a diagnosable personality disorder or not. So let's get down

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Speaker 1: to answering this question. I understand from the short question

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Speaker 1: that this person has found themselves in a relationship with

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Speaker 1: somebody who seems to have a lot of the traits

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Speaker 1: that I talked about in the Narcissistic Personality Disorder episode

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Speaker 1: we did. And it also sounds like this person would

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Speaker 1: like to get out but feel somewhat stuck. That phrase

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Speaker 1: of into deep and I have a lot of questions

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Speaker 1: about what that means, because that can mean a lot

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Speaker 1: of things for different people, And I don't want to

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Speaker 1: simplify anything, because leaving a relationship, even if it is toxic,

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Speaker 1: even if it is not great and you don't want

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Speaker 1: to be in it, isn't as easy as just being like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm done. Easier said than done sometimes, And so I

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Speaker 1: do have a lot of understanding for that, and the

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Speaker 1: stuckness could be lost of control finances, maybe you have kids,

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Speaker 1: maybe you're in an isolated space and you don't have resources,

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Speaker 1: and so if that is what you mean, I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of empathy for that, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: offer some information, offer some support and what I'm about

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Speaker 1: to say, But I also want anybody to listen that's

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Speaker 1: listening to this to know that it's going to be

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Speaker 1: hard no matter what. There's not an easy way. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, there's not one protocol. There's not an easy

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Speaker 1: one way to exit a relationship like that like this,

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Speaker 1: because one emotions and also the reality of life and

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Speaker 1: what somewhat toxic relationships do to our both psyche and

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Speaker 1: our ability to access resources. We need to be able

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Speaker 1: to live independently outside of a relationship. So this is

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Speaker 1: what I can offer you. I would highly highly encourage

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Speaker 1: anybody in this place to educate as much as you

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Speaker 1: can on what narcissism is and what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: This will help you understand why sometimes maybe you feel crazy,

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Speaker 1: or help you understand why you feel like you've lost

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Speaker 1: a sense of self. Exposure to narcissism tends to really

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Speaker 1: beat down on self esteem. And to get out of

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Speaker 1: one of these relationships and either not enter it again

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Speaker 1: or enter another relationship like this, you're going to need

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Speaker 1: to build back up that part of you that is

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Speaker 1: constantly questioning reality in your own sanity. And so I

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Speaker 1: again I would really just educate yourself, give yourself a

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Speaker 1: lot of information, build up your toolbox in that area,

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Speaker 1: so then you actually can see something and you can

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Speaker 1: be ready for what the response is, because oftentimes when

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Speaker 1: it comes to narcissism, we end up being able to

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Speaker 1: somewhat predict the responses and how things are going to

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Speaker 1: go because these behaviors are so calculated. I would also

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Speaker 1: highly suggest going to a therapist who is familiar with narcissism.

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Speaker 1: Not just a therapist, Go to somebody who is familiar

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Speaker 1: with narcissism them and make sure that you ask them

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Speaker 1: that because not everybody digs into this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: A therapist can really help shed some light on the

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Speaker 1: realities when you feel too close to the confusion and

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Speaker 1: the emotion. And I want you, and I'm speaking to

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Speaker 1: anybody who feels connected to this to know that no

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Speaker 1: matter how did you feel, it is always possible to

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Speaker 1: come back to your true self and that's what you

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Speaker 1: need to do to get out of this, and a

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Speaker 1: therapist can very much help with that. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people will use the phrase, and I talk about this

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Speaker 1: in the episode on narcissism, that people will say, I've

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Speaker 1: lost myself, I've lost who I am. And in a sense, sure,

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Speaker 1: in another sense, it really is that you've somewhat buried

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Speaker 1: yourself and you've protected yourself, and that bearing of self

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Speaker 1: has been out of protection and now you don't know

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Speaker 1: how to access that part of you and that piece

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Speaker 1: of you, and a therapist can help you access that

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Speaker 1: true self and look at They'll help you look at

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Speaker 1: that other part part of your past and those experiences

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Speaker 1: that I've allowed this experience to be entered into, and

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Speaker 1: that will both help you gain the ability, the strength,

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Speaker 1: the courage, the belief and all that to exit this

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Speaker 1: relationship and will also help you stand in your firmness

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Speaker 1: so you don't again enter into another one of those relationships.

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Speaker 1: We can see it. What about us allowed us to

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Speaker 1: stay in this And it's not a blaming thing. It's

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Speaker 1: more about taking responsibility for my part so I can

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Speaker 1: be confident in myself, so I can believe in myself,

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Speaker 1: so I can trust myself that I can take care

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Speaker 1: of myself, and I can stand firm in reality, and

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Speaker 1: I know my reality, and I can actually hold that

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Speaker 1: as true. What you can't do is control and be

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Speaker 1: responsible for the behavior of the narcissist. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of times we end up doing that. We end up

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Speaker 1: taking responsibility for things that actually have nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with us, and then we don't get to take responsibility

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Speaker 1: for the things that actually have a lot to do

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Speaker 1: with us. And all you can do is take o

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Speaker 1: ownership of you and your own decisions and your choices,

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Speaker 1: and you can be on your team. And I would

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Speaker 1: encourage you to almost use that as a phrase in

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Speaker 1: your head, I have to be on my team. You

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Speaker 1: are going to have to own your reality. You're going

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Speaker 1: to have to stand in it, and you're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to hold onto it, because that is what a narcissists

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Speaker 1: sometimes a lot of times, most of the time, will

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Speaker 1: go after to shake up your reality and make it

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Speaker 1: feel blurry. You're going to have to start actively and

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Speaker 1: purposefully differentiating yourself from this person. You are separate, and

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Speaker 1: you have the ability to stay separate in that you

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Speaker 1: can respond to their actions instead of react to what's

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Speaker 1: going on. And you have so much more choice in

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Speaker 1: your responses than you think. And you don't have to engage.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to engage in the dance. They're going

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Speaker 1: to want you to do the dance, and I would

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Speaker 1: highly recommend you to not engage in the dance. It

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Speaker 1: might piss them off, it might make them that It

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Speaker 1: might then encourage them to use a different tactic and

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Speaker 1: try harder. You do not have to engage in that dance.

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Speaker 1: I would highly encourage you to not try to change

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Speaker 1: the partners who has the narcissistic traits. Don't try to

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Speaker 1: change their reality. It's not helpful to argue or to

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Speaker 1: try to get them to understand your side. They are

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Speaker 1: not trying to understand you. They are trying to confuse you,

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Speaker 1: and you end up setting yourself up for them to

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Speaker 1: come in and dance their way into confusing you. So

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Speaker 1: let them have their thoughts. You get to have your

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Speaker 1: own and know that because you are a separate person,

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Speaker 1: you get to have your own thoughts, You get to

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Speaker 1: have your own experience, and you don't need their agreeance.

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Speaker 1: You don't need their validation. You don't have to have

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Speaker 1: any of that for you to know that your experience

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Speaker 1: is your experience and that is true to you. And

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Speaker 1: then the last thing I would really say is we

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Speaker 1: have to listen to those around us who are saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: I've noticed this, or I don't really like that I

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Speaker 1: saw this person say this to you, or it seems

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Speaker 1: like you're not being treated well, and I want to

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Speaker 1: voice that when you have those people come in and

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Speaker 1: say things like that, I want you to listen to

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Speaker 1: how you respond. If you defend them, if you defend

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Speaker 1: the treatment that the people that love you are expressing

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Speaker 1: concern for, that is a surefire away for you to

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Speaker 1: sit down and evaluate the relationship you're in. This is

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Speaker 1: super super hard because it's hard to leave these relationships.

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Speaker 1: And the more I stand in reality, the more that

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Speaker 1: my reality is going to tell me that I need

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Speaker 1: to leave this relationship. And if we can convince ourselves

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Speaker 1: that it's okay to stay in it and that this

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Speaker 1: isn't our reality, then we don't have to do the

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Speaker 1: hard things right. So, I have a lot of empathy

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Speaker 1: and understanding and compassion for being in that space where

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Speaker 1: we want to defend that behavior, and we want to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's really not that bad. At the same time, people

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Speaker 1: usually don't express people that love us, right if we

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Speaker 1: start to then like they just don't want me to

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Speaker 1: be had and they're just jealous, and this and that

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Speaker 1: and the other. Sometimes that's true. But if everybody all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden is becoming very jealous of us, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time I'm finding myself feeling weak and

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Speaker 1: questioning my reality, maybe it's not that they're jealous. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's really really hard to sit with the idea that

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Speaker 1: I'm being faced with something I need to do that

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Speaker 1: it's going to be really hard, really painful, and really scary. So,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I can't give you a protocol. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you exactly what to do. One of the

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Speaker 1: biggest things I can I can tell you is to

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Speaker 1: educate yourself. Hold on to the relationships that feel very

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Speaker 1: very safe to you, and I mean safe, not comfortable.

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Speaker 1: I mean safe isn't safe. Educate hold onto those relationships

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Speaker 1: and stand in your reality versus trying to find a

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Speaker 1: common reality with the person that you're in this relationship with.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully that had a semblance of helping it. If you

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Speaker 1: guys have any other questions on narcissism, I will. I'll

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Speaker 1: say one resource that it's really helpful has tons of

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Speaker 1: content specifically on this is doctor Romeny. Anything I've seen

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Speaker 1: of hers has been really helpful. She's very much pretty

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Speaker 1: straightforward because the nature of not being able to sit

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Speaker 1: in every single situation, and if I don't know this

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Speaker 1: person and see this person and be able to talk

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Speaker 1: to this person, I can't fill in the blanks of

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Speaker 1: a lot of the holes in people's circumstances. Sometimes the

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Speaker 1: information that I can give on here can seem, like

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Speaker 1: I said, pretty general, and my answers can be very well,

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Speaker 1: you can or you can't, or yes and no, and

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Speaker 1: it's very great. And doctor Romney a lot of times

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Speaker 1: gives more straightforward answers, and that can be really helpful.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes we just need to hear that hard do this,

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Speaker 1: I border on I don't always have the ability to

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Speaker 1: say that because your specific situation I don't know. So

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Speaker 1: I would just recommend any of her information and also

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Speaker 1: take that with the idea that she is going to

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Speaker 1: be giving you more straightforward answers, and we need to

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Speaker 1: really be able to let that sit with us. But

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Speaker 1: we also need to enter that information with the idea

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Speaker 1: that not everything is going to fit my story exactly.

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Speaker 1: So that's when we get to call upon people who

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Speaker 1: are actually in our lives, whether it's friends, loved ones,

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Speaker 1: or a therapists that you reach out to. So again,

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Speaker 1: hope this was helpful, and oh, I have so much

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Speaker 1: compassion empathy for anybody who is in one of these situations.

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Speaker 1: And again, know that you have not completely lost yourself.

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Speaker 1: We have to unbury that true sense of self, that

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Speaker 1: strength that all of us were born with, and you

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Speaker 1: do have the ability to do that. So if you

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Speaker 1: have any other questions, you can send them to me

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Speaker 1: Catherine at uned Therapy podcast dot com. I am so

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Speaker 1: grateful for all of you that send them in and

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Speaker 1: trust me with these things that you are going through.

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Speaker 1: You can follow me at cat dot Defada and at

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast and I'll back with you guys

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Speaker 1: on Monday with a new episode. Until then, I hope

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Speaker 1: you guys have the day you need to have.