WEBVTT - The Science of Secrets 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:05.920 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:14.239 Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.960 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.439 And Robert, you write a fiction. I do. I do 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.520 occasionally commit acts of fiction, right, and as a fiction writer, 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.520 I'm sure you have heard this saying, though I can't 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.680 remember where I heard it. If you want to make 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.800 a character interesting, what should you do? You give him 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.479 a secret some broad advice because not all secrets you 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.839 created equally. Uh, that you could give a character a 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.680 secret identity. You could give them a secret past, a 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:48.600 secret mission, um, a secret mark upon their body. Uh, 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.519 Like I always think back to um a secret pet. Yes, 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.160 well secret pet. I don't know as has been a 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.840 I guess you could have like an illegal pet. But 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.920 I always think back to raising Arizone in the The 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:06.760 Bounty Hunter character played by text Cob and uh, and 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.080 he has the secret what like woody woodpecker tattoo on 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.360 his body that's revealed in one of the scenes. And 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.920 there's this moment between which is the protagonist also has 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:17.960 the protagonist has it as well, and so it's the 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.880 protagonist Nicolas cave, which also has a woody woodpecker tattoo. Yeah, 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:23.960 and uh and it's a lovely moment in the film 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:28.280 because suddenly these two characters share a secret or a 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.440 secret has been exposed and uh and and there's not 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.000 much made of it in the film. There's just this this, 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.280 this one pregnant moment where where we just consider the 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:43.160 absurdity and strange depth of of what has happened. I 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.160 would say, in general, it's kind of hard to have 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.400 a good story without a secret. I mean, try try 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:49.960 to think. I'm sure you can come up with a few. 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.680 But secret secrets are always there in fiction because good 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.840 fiction is the act of discovery, and if you want 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.320 to make a discovery tantalizing, you should know that there 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.800 is something to be discovered, but not know what it is. Yeah, 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.760 I mean, it instantly creates, creates drama, tension, there's stuff 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.200 that the character has to hold back. The character may 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.239 end up then having to lie about things. Yeah. It 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.800 it opens up possibilities there and conflict and inner conflict, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.320 I should add, because that's another huge aspect of secrets. 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:22.760 So many of our our more weighty secrets in life, 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:26.000 and certainly in fiction, or secrets that are tied to identity, 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.760 So you end up with a with a protagonist or 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.560 an antagonist who is um who whose whole You know, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.040 personality and identity is sort of a spun around of 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.760 this often dark secret about who they really are, right, 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.400 The tension in their character is trying to keep all 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.000 that bottled inside. Yeah, now, of course, Uh, you know, 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:47.840 secrets have been a part of our stories for a 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.720 very long time. Secrets factor into many myths and folk tales. 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.400 So you have like the secret names of demons, come 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.600 up right, Rumpel still skin, you have you know, if 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.359 you know an entity's name, then you have some power 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.040 over it. Uh. You have secret betrayals, secret histories. But 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.040 I've always found one particular tale of secret and secret 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.040 keeping particularly compelling, and that's the Japanese folk tale of 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.520 Yuki Onna the woman in the snow Hit me with 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.000 it all right, So this is the this is the 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.360 basic telling of the tale. So a young man ventures 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.079 out into the woods with other woodcutters and then they're 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.520 caught in a terrible snowstorm, and a terrifying figure finds 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.840 them in the cold, and then one by one she 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.840 drains the life from the woodcutters. But then when she 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.440 comes to the young man, she spares him, and she 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.600 tells him that she will let him live. But there's 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.320 one provision. He must never tell a single living soul 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.200 what has happened here. He has to keep this secret 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.520 his entire life. And if he tells anyone, she'll come 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.360 for him and take his life. So it's like the 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:54.160 opposite of natural born killers, or or tell them the 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.120 North Remembers, or something like that is saying like, no, 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.160 don't tell this story. I got to keep it inside, 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.840 even though it's I mean, it's it's the most interesting 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.000 thing that's ever happened to you, young woodcutter. But but 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.760 you must never tell anyone. It's gonna define who you are, 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:11.560 it's going to change the course of your life. But 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.320 you have to keep it inside. And so the young 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.080 man survives the storm, He ventures back to the village, 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.479 and life moves on. He keeps the secret. He meets 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.800 a beautiful woman and they marry. He and his wife 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.800 have children, and they settle into a happy and normal life. 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.760 But the whole time he has this secret tugging at him. 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.680 He feels it's weight, it's chill, and and then finally, 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.919 one night, after the children are asleep, he unburdens himself 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.080 to his wife. He tells her of this deadly encounter, 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.560 this deadly spirit in the woods, on that that day 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.120 so long ago. So he feels a lot better than right, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.000 well maybe for yeah, I think he does for a 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.560 few seconds there. But after he unburdens himself, his wife 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.200 curses him for breaking his word and telling the secret. 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.919 And then she reveals her true form, for she is 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.240 the woman in the snow and has lived these many 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.960 years as his wife and mother to his children. So 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.640 she had a secret to Yeah, yeah, I mean their 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.839 whole They're both wrapped up, their fates are both wrapped 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.599 up in this this one potent secret. And you know, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.719 and obviously there are you know, less defined magical qualities here, 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.200 the idea that this is a secret um actually has 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.000 magical power to it. Now what happens next varies with 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.159 the telling, uh, and the various versions make us ponder, 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.000 you know, what the weight of a secret is, what 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.720 the weight of a solemn vowel is, because that's the 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.520 other aspect here is the vow not to tell. And uh. 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.960 In some cases and some tellings of this she melts 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.000 away into ice, water and others. She spares him yet again, 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.080 but promises to come for him and show no mercy 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.000 if he's not a kind father to their children. And 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.000 then she you know, walks off into the snow. But 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.200 either way, the husband's heartbroken. The children are gonna wake 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.720 up the next morning and find their mother gone. It's uh, 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:56.560 you know, it's it's heavy stuff no matter how you 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:58.880 shake it. Well, this place on our deepest fears and 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.479 the thing that motivates it's most secret keeping. Now, there 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:03.400 are a lot of different kinds of secrets you could keep. 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.520 You could be a spy and keep secrets in your 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.720 line of work, or you could be keeping a very temporary, 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.000 benign secret, like planning a surprise party. But most of 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.240 the secrets that come to mind when you think about 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.680 secrecy are things you don't want other people to know 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.240 about you. And that's that's the kind of thing that 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.240 can be especially damaging in a relationship, right, Like, if 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.880 there's something that you don't want your life partner to 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:31.360 know about you, that's a fundamental flaw in the most 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.520 important relationship in your life, right, I mean, it's some 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.320 of the literature we're looking at for this episode, they 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.000 got into this little bit. They're like, I'm about their 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:43.159 being a balance to right, how because you end up 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.080 in a situation where you don't want to share all 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.680 your secrets and then your beloved turns into a snow 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.840 monster and kills you. Like, I mean, that's kind of 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:55.360 one reading on the Tale of Yukiola is that he 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:57.400 was a little too open with his secrets. He should 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.840 not have told that secret. That's one that should have kept. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:01.880 The moral of the story is that he should not 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.280 have been honest. Yeah, But then there there are some 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.159 versions of that tale where where she's completely forgiving because 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.840 because it was not a breaking of the vowel to 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:15.640 share that with his wife. So yeah, and then's and 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.640 then of course there's there's one version where she right 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.360 out right kills him. Uh. And that's a nineteen nineties 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.680 retelling in Tales from the Dark Side in the movie. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.720 I like that the chassis of this story can be 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.840 repurposed to suit almost any moral you want people to 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.520 take away. So like, this story could be about how 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.240 you should not keep secrets, or it could be about 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.320 how you should keep secrets. Yeah, and yeah, there's that's 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:40.720 one of the things that I think is so attractive 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.360 about it. There's there's an ambiguity a to the magic, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.480 like what's the what are the what's the actual what 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.000 are the actual magical mechanics of what's going on here? 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.520 And then uh and then yeah, like was the guy 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.680 in the right because you have a you have a 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.960 guy who tells his secret for reveals the secret for 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.200 a seemingly very noble reason, like it's weighing him down own, 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.679 it's it's causing him pain, and it's something that's between 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.119 him and the most important person in his life. Also 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.960 though the fact of the secret is not an admission 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.520 of personal wrongdoing on his part or something that that 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.040 he should be ashamed of, it's just about a thing 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.400 that happened to him that he can't talk about, right 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:19.280 and and I can't. I have to assume it's the 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.440 kind of thing that like shapes you, that's a connects 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.960 the kind of thing that changes the person watching a 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:28.360 snow spirit murder people before you. Uh So, you know, 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:32.640 it's it's it's sad, it's it's it's it's depressing to 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:34.360 think that you would have a character that would be 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.880 that affected by something like it really it's a traumatic event, 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.520 and and he can never talk about it. And I 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:42.000 think that's something that a lot of and a lot 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:43.600 of people can relate to. That a lot of people 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:47.200 have experienced traumas that they either do not feel they 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.080 can talk about, or they or they you know, they 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.680 can talk about it very rarely, or they spoke of 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.280 it once, you know, to you know, an appropriate authority, 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.000 and then they can't share it again. Right now. Tales 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:00.560 from the Dark Side of the movie V that's the 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.360 one where a cat jumps down a guy's throat. Yes, 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.280 that's the also a Japanese legend. No, that's a Stephen 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:12.200 King story. But let's see. I'm not gonna remember all 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.080 the tales that are retold in that one, but I 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.160 know one is a one is a retelling of the Mummy, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:20.760 uh that I've I've referred to a few times because 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.240 that's one of the few terrifying Mummy tales in my opinion. 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.280 It's got Christians Slater in it, right right, and the 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.439 Mummy goes around pulling people's brains out with a coat hanger, 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.360 so it's it's actually terrifying for a little bit. But 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.600 this one, in particular, it's a retelling of of of 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.400 the Snow Woman The Woman in the Snow, except you 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.360 have it set in New York City with Gargoyles the 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.120 Monsters of Gargo instead of Snow Spirit, and then you 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.040 have James Ramar playing the husband and Raydon Chong playing 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.120 the wife. And it's it's actually really good. It's uh. 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.720 It was written by the late novels and screenwriter Michael McDowell. 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.480 Now another and far more literal telling of this uh 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:04.320 this tale is Masaki Kabayashi's five film Kaitan, which features 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.080 this tale among other Japanese traditional Japanese ghost stories. And 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.559 it's extremely beautiful. It's really like a really there's a 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.840 psychedelic vision to this film. It's It's available on Criterion Collection. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:17.680 This is one of those I've been meaning to watch 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.280 for years and haven't gotten around too. I've got a 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.960 good friend of mine from Tennessee really loves this one. 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.760 Oh yeah, it's it's beautiful, it's hypnotic. Um this one. 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.120 I think I've actually referred to another story that's featured 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.800 in this where you have the the reflection of a 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.120 samurai's ghost and a cup of tea. Yeah, So in 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.440 this one, what happens when he reveals the secret. This 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.880 one has the more traditional version where she she spares 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.320 him but makes him promise to be a good father 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.280 to the children. Oh well that's sweet. Yeah, well, I 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.959 mean it's sweet, but again it's it's still heartbroken. So 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.120 if it's not obvious by now, we are going to 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.240 be talking about secrets today and we're gonna try to 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.920 get into some of the science of secrets, talk about 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:59.160 the psychological research that exists on secrecy, the practice of 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.600 keeping secret it's and the effects of secrecy. But I 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.280 was trying to think about the concept of secrecy because 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:10.760 it first it seemed like a very straightforward idea. Right, 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.520 A secret is just what standard definition is something kept 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:18.679 from knowledge or view? Right, Yeah, Like I keep thinking 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.080 of it in terms of my my son, Like how 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.440 did we introduce the concept of a secret to him? 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.760 And it's in the form of giving gifts Christmas or birthdays? Right, 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.320 Because it comes down to what's in this box? For 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.200 your mother? You can't tell her it's a secret. Like 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.560 it's a very literal scenario. There is an unseen quantity 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:38.720 in this box. You know what it is, and you 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.680 can't say what it is. You know, for the sake 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:46.600 of fun, and that that's the nice version, right, But so, yeah, 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.400 something kept from knowledge or view. Okay, that seems fairly straightforward. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.240 But the more I thought about it, the more I thought, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:57.120 that's not really a very accurate version of how we 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:01.000 use the word secret. It doesn't match the usage. Because 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.240 here's an example. If I live alone and I haven't 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.560 had anybody over to my apartment yet, and I have 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.640 a green chair that I've never told anybody about. Is 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:13.280 that green chair a secret? Not really, right, you, You 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.880 wouldn't use the word that way. So nobody but me 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.000 knows about it, but it's not a secret. But say, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.880 imagine I'm living alone, I haven't had anybody over to 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.559 my apartment yet, and I also have a vintage dock 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.640 in poster hanging up on the wall, and that poster 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.840 is the reason I haven't had anybody over to my apartment. 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.280 Is that poster a secret? In that case? I think 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.200 maybe it is. Yeah, I've been picturing in the scenario 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.960 that you have an entire room set aside for this 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.120 dock and poster and the green chair that you sit 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.800 in while you stare at it, right, And I also 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.040 sleep in the green Chair, so I have immediate conscious 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:53.040 access to the dream Warriors. Wait, the Dream Warriors. That's stocking, right, 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.120 I'm not wrong about that, am I? Oh? I'm not sure. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.160 I'm not a I'm not a huge dock and expert, 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.240 but this would be the theme song for um, the 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.680 The The, the Freddy Krueger movie. Yeah. I don't want 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:08.360 to dream no more anyway. This makes me think that 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.520 the idea of secrecy it's something that we deploy as 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.960 a read on intent, right, it's the intent to conceal. 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:20.079 But there are also things that you don't want other 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.760 people to know about that aren't really secrets, right, like uh, 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.960 not to get too gross, but descriptive details of your 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:32.160 excretory function. These are things you'd really prefer your friends 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:36.120 and colleagues not know. But would you call them secrets? 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.400 Not really, right? No, I mean it's unless you're doing 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.600 it and you know aut in a really novel fashion. 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.720 You're probably doing it like everybody else anyway, So exactly so, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.679 you wouldn't want other people to know about this stuff, 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:49.400 but you wouldn't call it a secret. And I think 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.400 the reason is that you there's no reason to presume 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.240 that your friends and colleagues would have any interest in 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.480 knowing that information, right, they don't know, You don't want 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.120 them to know, and they wouldn't want to know. So 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:03.880 there are a lot of things about you that other 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.880 people don't know, but they're not secrets. I think secrets 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.480 are the intersection of things that people don't know, that 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.199 you suspect they might want to know, and that you 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.760 don't want them to know. What do you think about that, 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:22.120 Robert m M. Yeah, I would say, but that's I 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.440 think that's a good way of initially defining it. But 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.840 then you get into like what does someone want to know? 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.760 And there's like there their things they consciously and openly 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.240 want to know, and there are things that they they 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.000 tell themselves they wouldn't want to know, but if they 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.200 were presented with an envelope or you know, or a 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.800 file or something, then they might be tempted to look 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.560 inside that sort of thing. And then uh, and then 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.680 there's just varying levels of like realistic concern over the 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.320 secret being found out and just sort of anxiety, you know, 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.960 like building up in your mind that something is some 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.920 dreadful secret or you know it would be terrible of 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.400 other people found out about it. Yeah. So a lot 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:07.800 of the experience of secrecy, I think, necessarily hinges on 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.640 imagining what would be going on in other people's minds. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.320 It doesn't even necessarily depend on what other people actually 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.280 would care about or how they would react. It's all 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:23.360 about how you imagine other people would think about these details, right. Yeah. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.920 And in many of these cases too, you're imagining, like 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.640 yourself being the one who leaks the secret by accidentally 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.120 letting it leak. Now here's an interesting take on this. 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.960 I was reading about Jacques dar Da who is twenty 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.480 century French philosopher and the father of deconstructions, the high 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:45.600 priest of postmodernism. Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of this 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.760 boils under the critique of the relationship between text and meaning. 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:51.480 But he had the following insight to share on the 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.800 nature of secrets and this these basics come from his 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.240 work How to Avoid Speaking. So breaks it down like this, 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.240 A secret is something that must not be spoken, Okay, 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.200 but I must possess it and not give it away 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:07.680 for it to be a secret. So I must understand 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.400 the secret, or at least grasp the importance of it. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.920 But to possess that that secret I do have to 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.680 tell one person, I have to tell it to myself, 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.120 like in in containing the secret in my mind, I 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.080 have to tell myself that secret. If I don't, I 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:24.920 have forgotten it. And how can I keep a secret 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.800 that I've forgotten? Uho? And also to keep that secret, 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.320 I must not keep the secret. Mm hmm. So yeah, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.280 if you could have a secret exercised from your memory, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.240 it wouldn't be a secret anymore. So my my advice 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.920 is that have this answer ready the next time someone 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.640 asks you if you can keep a secret for them. Um, 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.000 you know, and I realized some of that probably sounds 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.240 a bit like some you know, academic nonsense, but but 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.040 think of it this way. Secrets have weight, and if 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.640 I ask you to keep a secret, you must carry 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.640 the weight of that secret, even if it's slight, right, 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.359 And if the information is disturbing, frightening or sad or 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.000 what have you, you still have to roll it around 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.239 in your mind from time to time in order to 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.280 not share it with someone else. Now, George or would 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.919 probably disagreed with some of that. He said, if you 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.359 want to keep a secret, you must also hide it 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.800 from yourself. But again, part of keeping the secret is 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.760 knowing not to let it out. And if you I mean, 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:28.240 if you, I guess if you can forget it, but 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.359 then it's then you're not keeping a secret then right right? Well, 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.040 I mean that's part of the fear. Like, if you 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.800 were to actually forget about a secret, you would not 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.560 be in the prime position to defend against people finding 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.320 out about it, right, Like, if there's a secret that 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:47.320 people could discover about you, you need to know about 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.719 it in order to steer people away from discovering it. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.240 Right Like if if you are not in if you're 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.960 not you're self aware of what people shouldn't be finding out, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.680 you're not in a good defensive posture, right And if 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.399 you if you have to be alive and keeping the 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.280 secret to be a secret keeper, if someone tells you 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.960 the secret and it murders you, that you're not a 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.760 secret keeper anymore. Um so, And then again, well, I 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.600 can see what Orwell is getting at here, because Orwell 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:18.000 wrote about self deception a lot. You know, nine four 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.680 is full of these ideas of double think and uh, 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.840 and the ability to can convince oneself to believe what 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.119 one knows isn't true, right Uh, And that this is 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.120 sort of the final abjection of the self. I get 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:34.320 the feeling that that Orwell ultimately is not painting a 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.959 nice picture of what secrets are here. It's kind of 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.240 gets down to the idea that so, so to keep 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.120 a secret, you have to tell a lie. And maybe 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.479 what Orwell is saying is if you can make that 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.320 lie the truth of your heart, then you have become 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:52.800 a true secret keeper. Right, But you've also sacrificed your integrity. Right. Uh. 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.160 This reminds me of another quote, and this one comes 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.560 from James Joyce, and this is from Ulysses his His 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:04.399 you know, he says, secrets, silent stony, sit in the 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:09.480 dark palaces of both our hearts, secrets weary of their tyranny, 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:13.560 tyrants willing to be dethroned. Yeah, the secret wants to escape, 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.680 right like it it's rain, cannot go on forever. It 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.440 has a self destructive impulse. And I often do think 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:26.000 of secrets this way, that a secret is like a bomb, right, 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.919 It's like a bomb in fiction, and that it's possible 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.600 that a bomb will never go off, but the purpose 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.680 of a bomb is to go off, and like a secret, 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.760 almost psychologically for me, plays the role of a thing 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:44.360 that will be probably disclosed at some point in the future, 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.760 and you are just wondering the entire time when and 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.240 how that will happen. And then when it is revealed, 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:54.600 you have to choose. Then are you then are you 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.400 gonna come clean and say, oh, yes, I knew that 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.520 all along. It was a secret and I was its keeper, 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.760 and and and that brings various complications. Or do you 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.199 say you pretend that you didn't know, and now you 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.840 have a new secret. The original secret has been has 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.560 been you know, declassified, but you've created the new one, 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.560 the idea that you were never this keeper of this secret. Right, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:20.639 So here's a question. What's the relationship of secrets to lying? 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.040 We were just talking about or well sort of gets 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:26.400 into this, Joyce sort of hints at this. Most ethical 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.919 systems would judge lying to be an immoral act, barring, 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.159 you know, extreme extenuating circumstances, like you might lie in 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.800 the same kind of circumstances where you would use violence 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.520 to defend yourself or others there something like that. But 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:42.480 generally lying is wrong. I think I feel that way. Um, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.359 So if it's wrong to lie, is it wrong to 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.280 keep secrets? In other words, is it wrong to intentionally 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.600 prevent other people from discovering facts that you suspect they 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:58.160 would probably want to know or might want to know. Uh, 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.520 I feel like the answer is probably not right. So 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.479 that exposes another tension in secrecy, because some secrets are 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.680 about things that are just none of anybody else's business. 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:10.880 You know. It's not always like, well, I stole something, 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.240 or I cheated on my partner or something like that. 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.640 It might be things like there's a fact about you 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.879 that you wouldn't naturally feel bad about, but you feel 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:24.680 that other people might judge you unfairly if they knew it. Yeah, Well, 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.040 like the doc and example is good. You know. I 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:28.840 feel like a lot of us have these, uh, these 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.600 things in life we like, you know, you know, be 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.160 a a you know, a TV show or an album 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.359 or something, and we're nostalgic for it. Yeah, and then 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:39.320 there's this, there's this idea that we need to keep 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.160 it a secret at least from certain circles, excluding temporary 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.720 tactical secrets like planning a surprise party or something like that. 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:51.240 Does does this imply that a secret is always something 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:56.199 that suggests an injustice. Either you did something bad and 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.560 you don't want people to know, or there's something about 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.360 you that you think people would treat you unfairly or 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:09.480 unreasonably if they knew. Are there any exceptions to that? Um? Well, 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.680 I think you touched on strategic secrets, right, the things 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.439 that are not really something you want to keep secret forever, 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:17.760 but it's just like you know, it's a planning a 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.240 surprise or giving a gift or something. Yeah, I mean, 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.960 I guess one of my my sticking points that I 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.240 kept coming across, and this was, is just the idea 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.600 of unnecessary secrets that people attempt to burden you with. 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.320 I've I found I tend not to find these in 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.040 my own like social interactions, but I know that others have. 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:36.800 Where you're talking to somebody and they say, oh, but 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.680 don't tell anybody about this, And maybe you know, maybe 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:42.119 the secret they're sharing with you is something lady, But 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.520 a lot of times it's not, and it's something that 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.960 you're you're going to go and tell somebody else about anyway. 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:50.560 But they've they've they've put the burden of keeping the 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.200 secret on you. Also, in in workplace environments, I've encountered 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.800 this where you know someone's sharing just some really unimportant 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.040 bit of you know, short term stragg G for the company. Right, 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.399 don't tell anybody. I don't tell anybody. I was like, 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.000 why did you tell me? Because because it's a you 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.480 had to share your crummy secret with me, and now 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:12.240 I have to keep it or or break my vow 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.080 over something. So pitdling, you know, somebody should start a 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.560 website along the lines of post secret. You know about 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:22.920 post secret, right, pop secret? Popcorn? No? No, post secret. No. 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:27.320 That this website where this dude was collecting postcards of 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:30.920 people would anonymously write down secrets and send them. Oh yeah, 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:33.399 I do remember this. Yeah, I mean so that was 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:37.240 an interesting way of of people sharing their secrets without 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.280 actually disclosing to people who would know about them, you know, 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.480 anonymous secret sharing. Uh. And there are probably some good 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:45.280 questions we can talk about later in this episode when 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:48.840 we talk about the science about whether that properly relieves 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:51.840 any of the tension brought on by secret keeping. But 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:54.960 there should be an analogy of that. It's a website 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:59.959 that's just don't tell anybody yet for all work, Relay 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:03.040 did secrets where people as soon as you get an 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:05.840 email that says don't tell anybody yet or as soon 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:08.280 as you get out of that meeting, you anonymously go 0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:11.840 and upload the facts. You can even have the time released. 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:15.840 I guess, um, now these are these are all excellent points. 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:18.119 Now I do want to throw in one thing here too, 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:20.040 Like when you get into secrets, you also get into 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.320 this idea of confessionals, right, Like to to unburden yourself 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.480 with the secret is to make a confession. And uh, 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.760 confessions have have played an important role, say in you know, 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:32.760 in Catholic tradition, like that instantly comes to mind, and 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:34.320 a lot of the studies that we looked at here 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.400 the idea of someone going and being able to unburden 0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:42.639 themselves in an anonymous or semi anonymous fashion. Likewise, various 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:46.359 self help hotlines. If some if the secret that you're 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:50.160 keeping is something say bound up in personal identity or 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:54.480 or you know, feelings of say suicide, you might call 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:58.440 a suicide hotline or a um or say a sexual 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.480 abuse hotline. And these would be appropriate places to unburden 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:07.040 yourself with this information and uh, you know, receive expert 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:09.080 advice on what to do about it. Now, that might 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:11.000 be a good example of an exception to what I 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:13.120 was talking about earlier because I can imagine you talked 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:16.000 about abuse like people who have undergone a certain kind 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:20.120 of trauma. Now, obviously they didn't do anything bad. They 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:24.560 might suspect that other people would react unreasonably or judge them, 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:26.960 but they might not too. In that case, they might 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:29.880 want to keep a secret for some other reason. They 0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:32.399 didn't do anything wrong, They don't think people will be 0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:35.080 mean to them about it or think differently about them. 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:39.840 They just don't want people to know, right. Yeah, I 0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:42.000 mean it just comes back around again to this the 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:48.400 very complex and and you know, a morphous quality of secrets, 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:51.080 like not all secrets are are equal. Now, one of 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:53.359 the things you mentioned earlier about about the idea of 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.920 a secret being harmful or not. Um, it's it's worth 0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:58.840 noting that you know there are many parents out there 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:01.879 argue you should not teach young kids about secret keeping 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:06.880 because it might be exploited later on in abusive scenarios 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:08.800 or the abuse or is saying hey, you have to 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.119 keep this secret. Uh. I actually ran ran across some 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:15.639 advice regarding this from the National Crime Prevention Council, and 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:18.520 they stressed the following that you would want to teach 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.040 a small child. First of all, if a secret can't 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:25.960 hurt someone or something, you keep it. If a secret 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:29.240 can hurt someone or something, you tell an adult. And 0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:33.240 if you're not sure, you're tell an adult. So it's 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:37.200 got like a default mode of tell yeah yeah, which 0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:39.840 I think is a that kind of breaks down when 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:43.320 you start bringing into the more complex adult scenarios of say, 0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:47.119 you know state secrets or workplace secrets, or you know 0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:50.399 the secret desires of your heart, but you know, for 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:53.159 a childhood scenario, I think those those guidelines seem to 0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:54.800 make a lot of sense. I think that might be 0:26:54.880 --> 0:26:57.399 good guidelines for adults. I mean, think about that. You 0:26:58.119 --> 0:27:01.320 if you're not sure it it's better to keep it 0:27:01.359 --> 0:27:03.800 a secret, you should err on the side of telling. 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:08.680 Yeah yeah. I mean that seems logical to me. I mean, 0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:13.040 it's the same reason that you wouldn't normally endorse lying, 0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:16.159 except in some extenuating circumstance where you've got to, you know, 0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:20.080 do something defensive or save lives or something like that. Generally, 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:22.760 it's better if people don't lie to each other. The 0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:25.399 problem is that a child can tell an adult. The 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:28.600 adult is the default, you know, authority figure. But who's 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:33.679 an adult to tell God the police obviously called the cobs. 0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:37.520 Every time you've got a secret, I'd like to report 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.760 a doc and poster in my apartment. Okay, well, I 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:43.639 think it's about time to start getting into the science 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:47.120 and maybe we can transition there by bringing up one 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:50.919 last thing that I think is also interesting. Why is 0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:55.399 it so pleasurable to share secrets with a person or 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:58.199 a small group. I'm sure you've had this experience, Robert, right, 0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:02.400 Like sharing secret it's a it's a well known bonding behavior. 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:04.760 You're a middle schooler and you get together with your 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:07.080 close friends and tell them who you've got a crush 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:10.879 on or when you have you know, one way that 0:28:10.920 --> 0:28:13.080 you know you found your soul made not to get 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:16.760 too cheesy, is that you confess thoughts and opinions to 0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:19.520 them that you would never say in front of anybody else. 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:24.439 It's fun and delightful to share your secrets with that person. Yeah, 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:28.000 you know, and it's also um you know. The counterpoint 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.119 is that it's disappointing, isn't it When you go to 0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:32.280 share a secret with someone and they already know the 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:36.400 secret and you know your Your disappointment is is it's twofold. 0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:39.160 On one hand, you don't get to share, be the 0:28:39.520 --> 0:28:42.600 share of the secret, and they were maybe keeping it 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:45.920 from you. But but when the reaction is positive, and 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:49.920 when there's you know, mutual discovery between two people or 0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:52.840 a small group of people, why does that feel so good? 0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:56.680 It's intensely socially pleasurable. Well, I think I think a 0:28:56.720 --> 0:28:58.080 lot of it is you have to you have to 0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:00.440 boil down all of this to sort of, um, you know, 0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:05.080 prehistoric human scenarios, right, like what we're secrets for For 0:29:05.120 --> 0:29:08.320 the vast majority of human history, what did secrets consist of. 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.960 They had to do with what the location of food 0:29:11.040 --> 0:29:15.440 and resources, um, the you know, the the position of 0:29:15.560 --> 0:29:20.520 dangers that you face, be the predators or other human populations. 0:29:21.120 --> 0:29:24.200 And therefore to share a secret was to share survival 0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:28.600 with someone. I feel like disclosure of secrets to close companions. 0:29:28.640 --> 0:29:31.400 It's so it's sort of like initiating Every time you 0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:35.360 do it, it initiates a further traversal into the boundaries 0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:38.720 of trust, Like you're going deeper into the trust landscape, 0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:41.880 which probably I think feels good for the same reasons 0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:44.720 that starting a new romantic relationship feels good. You know 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:48.200 that feeling of euphoria people often report when they're dating 0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:52.240 somebody new. Um, it's like you're you're going into new 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:56.200 social territory and it feels good to forge newer, stronger, 0:29:56.240 --> 0:30:00.080 better relationships. It's like playing like a card game and 0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:02.680 in the opening hands like none of the cards have 0:30:02.760 --> 0:30:06.440 been played, and every every play is something substantially new. 0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:10.840 Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Um. But also there there's an 0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:15.600 analogy to that, I think that is institutional secret knowledge. 0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:18.040 It's that same principle of sharing with a person or 0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:20.640 a small group and getting pleasure out of that, but 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:24.560 making it part of an organization, like the secret knowledge 0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:28.120 that forms the basis of attraction to secret societies. And 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:31.680 one of my favorites gnostic religions. Like if you go 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:34.840 back to the first few centuries CE, you see these 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:40.160 gnostic forms of Christianity, which were these strange versions of Christianity. 0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:42.880 They seem very alien to us now, but they're fascinating 0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:45.760 to study because they were built all on the idea 0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.560 of like you'd have a public version of the religion 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:51.200 that was accessible to the masses, and then you'd have 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:54.880 a private version of the religion based on secret knowledge 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:58.120 that was only available to the insiders. Oh yeah, I 0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:00.360 mean you should. You saw this in Greek traditions as well, 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:02.240 like you see it, you really see see it. And 0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:05.160 I guess in most major religions, there's there's there's the 0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:08.720 public religion, and then there are various esoteric versions of it, 0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:14.040 esoteric Buddhism, etcetera, and then branching cults and whatever ehressies 0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:16.960 from there on out. I get intense pleasure just from 0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:19.760 thinking about that and studying it. I can imagine it's 0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:23.160 so much more intense to actually be a part of that, 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:25.440 to be one of the people who gets let in 0:31:25.520 --> 0:31:28.120 on the secret. Yeah, and then just you, and to 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:30.280 be led by the secret, to the idea that there 0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:33.160 are secrets that will be revealed to you if you 0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:36.520 merely click on this article and learn the learn the 0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:39.120 ten secrets of toning your abs or what have you, 0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:42.320 and that the great way to clickbait you into submissions 0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:46.440 just to promise the secret will be revealed. Yes. So 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:49.280 we talked a little bit about children and secrets, and 0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:52.640 I started to think, like, at what point do children 0:31:53.200 --> 0:31:56.800 actually gain a sense of secrecy? At what point do 0:31:56.880 --> 0:32:01.280 they understand secrets and become capable of keeping them. Uh. 0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:04.240 And I did find that there was a study by 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:09.200 Peskin and Ardno in Social Development in two thousand three 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.920 that tried to study the relationship between childhood development of 0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:16.120 theory of mind and the ability to do two things. 0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:18.200 One of them was play Hyden's which is a kind 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:21.280 of secret keeping, but the other one was explicitly keeping 0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:24.360 a secret. So they tested children who were three, who 0:32:24.360 --> 0:32:28.200 were four, and were five at playing hide and seek 0:32:28.400 --> 0:32:31.400 and keeping a secret. And this was partially because those 0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:34.400 are ages where there was some existing knowledge about how 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:38.160 much theory of mind children generally have at those ages, 0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:40.560 And in theory of mind is the concept of being 0:32:40.600 --> 0:32:45.760 able to imagine the thoughts and intentions of other people. Yeah, 0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.520 it's interesting that hide and seek comes up, because I've 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:50.280 certainly played a lot of hide and Seek with my 0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:54.920 son over the years, and he's five now, and earlier 0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:59.720 on hide and seek tended to consist of of him 0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:03.040 high and then running out and kept him getting me 0:33:03.560 --> 0:33:07.040 Like it was really hard to to, you know, relate 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:09.239 the ideas that you're supposed to hide and wait for 0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:11.120 me to find it. Like the excitement would build up 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:13.480 and then he would just jump up and come to me, right, 0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:16.000 I mean hide and seek. We requires that you try 0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:19.640 to think from the seekers perspective when you are a hider. Yeah. 0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:21.680 And then likewise the keeping of secrets. You know, we 0:33:21.680 --> 0:33:26.200 get a we you know, get get a gift for someone, um, 0:33:26.240 --> 0:33:27.719 you know, it's generally gonna be like a gift from 0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:31.200 me or a gift from my wife and uh, and 0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:34.440 he would he would really like reveal the secret immediately 0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:37.000 when he was when he was really young, or even 0:33:37.040 --> 0:33:39.400 like want to unwrap the present right there, There was 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:41.760 that the idea of there being any kind of suspense, 0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:44.600 that that there would be some pleasure and not knowing 0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:48.680 and guessing was something that developed over the years. Well 0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:51.160 that's what this study found. So they found that across 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:54.280 the span of three to five, your ability to do 0:33:54.360 --> 0:33:58.200 both of these activities changes drastically. Three year olds just 0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:01.320 are terrible at keeping secret. It's a playing hide and seek. 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:04.560 They couldn't really hack it, right, But by four, by 0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:07.640 age four, most kids were on on the secret train, 0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:11.960 and by five, five year olds could keep a secret. Yes, yeah, 0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:14.239 that and that that manches up with my experience pretty well. 0:34:14.520 --> 0:34:17.400 And this brings me to the secrets of kindergarten or 0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:20.960 kindergarteners anyway. And then this is actually this is actually 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.600 really cool because today, as we're recording this, this is 0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:27.279 my son's first day of kindergarten. Congratulations, well, thank you. 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:30.680 I mean, you know, there's not much you can say. 0:34:30.680 --> 0:34:32.520 You can't say, like, well'm he's the first person in 0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:36.040 my family to go to kindergarten, you know, but um no, no, 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:38.360 it is. It is a big deal. But but it 0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:40.480 was interesting to go through all of this with these 0:34:40.560 --> 0:34:45.520 various studies in mind, because, as you pointed out, various 0:34:45.719 --> 0:34:48.640 studies point to this as a time, you know, age five, 0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:53.239 moving in on six, when group related attitudes and behavior 0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:57.520 begin to manifest. Group membership begins to influence their learning, 0:34:57.560 --> 0:35:01.959 their expectations, and behavior. And this includes resource sharing within 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:04.240 their group. And this is where we get into secrets, 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:07.600 because the secret is a resource. That's interesting. I think 0:35:07.719 --> 0:35:11.359 a secret as like an informational resource, has value. Yeah, 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:12.719 I mean, like I said, you take it back to 0:35:12.760 --> 0:35:16.400 a prehistoric analogy, and like a secret is where where 0:35:16.440 --> 0:35:19.040 the good hunting grounds, where the where the good berry bushes? 0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:21.480 Where is their clean water? That's sort of thing, right, 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:24.839 So the study that I was looking at here. This 0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:30.280 is comes from Antonia Mish, Harriet Over, and Melinda Carpenter 0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:33.600 and it's titled I won't tell Young children show loyalty 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:35.560 to their group by keeping group secrets. And this is 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:39.040 published in the Journal of Experimental Child Psychology in two 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:43.160 thousand sixteen. Now, I'm sure this study sounds delightful, right 0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:48.600 Kindergartner's interacting saying the darnedest things keeping secrets. But but 0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:51.960 the paper is actually quite disturbing read at times, because, 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:55.839 for instance, it touches on racial bias. Oh like, so 0:35:55.880 --> 0:35:59.799 that's part of in group variation on how children keep 0:35:59.880 --> 0:36:03.160 or relate secrets. Yeah, it ends up not playing as 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:05.440 much into the study as our because they ended up 0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:08.240 not they didn't record any racial information about the kids, 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:11.239 but they do point out some some sobering details here. Now, 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:15.080 I I previously read that implicit racial bias doesn't really 0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:18.120 rear its ugly head uh and children until around age 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.080 seven or so. But the researchers here, they point to 0:36:21.120 --> 0:36:25.000 a two thousand seven study that found quote, white children 0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:27.959 between four and seven years of age favorite other white 0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:31.440 children who positively interact with a racial in group member, 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:34.399 such as a white child over white children who hadn't 0:36:34.400 --> 0:36:37.880 interact with a racial outgroup member, such as a black child. 0:36:37.960 --> 0:36:41.520 Oh no, that's sad. Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh, it's 0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:44.759 like I say, this is a quite quite quite some 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:46.880 details to have knocking around in your head when you're 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:49.480 doing your first day of kindergarden. Anyway, for the purposes 0:36:49.520 --> 0:36:53.360 of this study, the researchers didn't include any racial information. 0:36:53.400 --> 0:36:56.400 They set out to assess children's loyalty by testing their 0:36:56.400 --> 0:37:00.480 willingness to keep a group secret. Previous studies cited in 0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:02.879 the article indicated the children began to understand the idea 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:06.759 of privileged information around age four, and that children can 0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:10.160 keep secrets in some context at this point. So that 0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:12.680 goes pretty much with what we were saying earlier. Right 0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.799 right age four, most kids could do it right. So 0:37:16.000 --> 0:37:18.719 here's how the study broke down. Children were assigned to 0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:21.600 color groups, you know, like green, red, yellow, and Sarah, 0:37:22.000 --> 0:37:25.120 and they were told a secret by by by two 0:37:25.480 --> 0:37:28.400 members of their own group or a member of an 0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:32.480 out group. So that's the initial setup. And you have 0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:34.640 a new neutral character who shows up and tries to 0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:39.919 buy secrets with colorful stickers. So loyalty means you get 0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:43.440 no stickers in this scenario because because the Tempter is 0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:46.239 coming around and uh, the and I should point out 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:49.240 that the Tempter here's a puppet and the secret Shares 0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:53.799 are also puppets, and the the the character whose name 0:37:53.840 --> 0:37:58.239 is Siri, is attempting to to buy your secrets with 0:37:58.480 --> 0:38:01.839 these stickers. Siri is going to have the gender of 0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:05.960 the child that they're interacting with. And the stickers are 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:09.279 going to range from just like a red sticker, green sticker, 0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:12.080 yellow sticker, et cetera, to uh, there's also a heart 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:15.920 shaped red sticker, which is you know, sounds like it's 0:38:15.920 --> 0:38:19.480 pretty cool. Uh so, well, so one thing I think 0:38:19.520 --> 0:38:21.439 we should say just to make clear if you're like, 0:38:21.800 --> 0:38:24.000 how how motivated could you be? I think when you're 0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:27.440 a little kids, stickers are. Stickers are a hot commodity. 0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:29.400 I mean, the stickers are what you get when you 0:38:29.600 --> 0:38:32.800 get a shot at the at the doctor's office. Stickers 0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:35.000 are what you get in as a prize for not 0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:38.279 causing a disruption in the checkoutline. Yes, stickers are a 0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:39.919 lot of fun. I mean I feel like when you're 0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:42.880 four or five, stickers are basically cut up hot dogs 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:47.320 to an animal are a dog. So uh. They tested 0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:50.800 forty eight five year olds gender split, and they also 0:38:51.200 --> 0:38:54.480 tested forty eight four year olds. The prediction was that 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:58.160 we'd see more loyalty in the five year olds. Uh. 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:00.759 And the children were just from day care centers in 0:39:00.760 --> 0:39:04.440 a midsized city. Again, no racial or ethnic details were recorded. 0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:07.880 A human served as a moderator. The male female hand 0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:11.080 puppets acted as secret keepers. The hand puppets Siri was 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:14.360 the briber and h you also had a book of 0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:16.960 secrets factoring in the experiment, and this was provided by 0:39:16.960 --> 0:39:21.040 the puppets. So they conducted the experiment. And oh and 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:23.640 by the way, children who could not remember their color 0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:26.560 group were kicked out. So some of the children, well 0:39:26.560 --> 0:39:27.759 they had to, you know, they had to because a 0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:29.280 lot of it had to do. You need to identify 0:39:29.400 --> 0:39:32.479 with group yellow or group green. But if you're asked 0:39:32.520 --> 0:39:34.600 what group you're in and you say, you know, oh, 0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:38.400 I'm in room seven of the kindergarten or whatever I'm in, 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:41.120 you know, Mrs Williamson's the class, that's not going to 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:44.200 cut it because you need to identify with the color 0:39:44.280 --> 0:39:48.520 group for the experiment to work. So the results were 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:51.680 that overall across both ages and conditions, the majority of 0:39:51.760 --> 0:39:57.200 children kept the secrets, no gender effects. Children were more 0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:00.600 inclined to keep in group secrets than alt group see crets. 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:04.359 So among the five year olds who again performed better, 0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:07.200 you had twenty one who kept in secrets within their group, 0:40:07.320 --> 0:40:09.920 thirteen who kept out secrets. Among the four year olds, 0:40:09.920 --> 0:40:13.440 fifteen kept in secrets, thirteen kept out secrets. And you 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:16.760 would be happy to know, parents, that all the children 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:20.680 went home with two super fancy stickers and not any 0:40:20.760 --> 0:40:24.239 of the bribe stickers. So so hopefully nobody went home 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:29.719 thinking that ratting out secrets was a profitable venture. So 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:32.080 this is kind of interesting because it looks like at 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:35.799 least within this experiment, uh who knows what would happened 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:37.920 if you tried to repeat it, But within this experiment, 0:40:38.080 --> 0:40:41.560 five year olds had learned a lot more in group 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:44.440 loyalty than the four year olds. Like there was there 0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:46.439 was less of a difference in the four year olds 0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:48.880 between whether they kept secrets in group and out group, 0:40:49.200 --> 0:40:52.239 but with the five year olds, significantly more of them 0:40:52.360 --> 0:40:56.040 kept secrets in the group. Right right, Yeah, so I guess, 0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:58.000 you know, I guess we were seeing the you know, 0:40:58.040 --> 0:41:01.520 the the the advancement they have alson of the individual's 0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:07.640 ability to prioritize secrets and prioritize privileged information. To look 0:41:07.640 --> 0:41:09.560 at the Green team and say you're not one of us, 0:41:09.600 --> 0:41:13.440 I'll betray you. Uh. And I included a picture in 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:15.960 our notes here of the puppet, and maybe I can 0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:17.520 throw this in the landing page for this episode of 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:19.320 Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. But I should 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:21.800 point out the tempter. Is it a lifeful looking puppet 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:25.360 and is not a punch of strawberry witch you have? 0:41:25.440 --> 0:41:27.640 But it's not like a Punch and Judy Show Devil 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:31.560 or anything. No, this thing, it's going to be in 0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:35.759 the next Annabel movie, the Annabel's sidekick wave in. It's 0:41:35.800 --> 0:41:41.480 a little cotton hands summoning pizzoo zoo. Alright, well we 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:43.960 have we have one more study on small children here, 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:46.520 I think to reference before we take our first break, 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:49.280 and that is a study title Secret Sharing Interactions between 0:41:49.280 --> 0:41:52.400 a Child Robot and Adults. But yeah, and this is 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:57.279 by Cindy L. Bethel, Matthew R. Stevenson, and Brian Ceciletti. 0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:01.120 So in this one, it basically as a question, Hey, 0:42:01.800 --> 0:42:05.400 how are children going to deal with secrets if they're 0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:09.400 um if they're interacting with a humanoid robot as well 0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:12.919 as say a human adult, if they're interacting and specifically 0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:16.760 to with a a stuffed animal dog or a robotic dog. 0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:20.120 And this was this was a pretty interesting study to 0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:22.319 look at. So there's just a quick quote from it 0:42:22.360 --> 0:42:25.879 to give you an example. Here the quote, the qualitative 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:28.840 results from these studies indicate that the children were readily 0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:32.160 able to apply their interaction style with an adult to 0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:35.440 their interactions with the robot in both the pilot and 0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:38.360 follow up studies. Future research needs to be conducted, but 0:42:38.440 --> 0:42:42.000 it is expected that with longer interactions with the robot, 0:42:42.040 --> 0:42:44.359 the children will treat the robot more as a peer, 0:42:44.600 --> 0:42:47.560 which would be beneficial and gathering sensitive information. So I 0:42:47.560 --> 0:42:51.759 guess the idea here is that maybe a robot could 0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:56.080 be used to elicit the sharing of secrets, especially like 0:42:56.160 --> 0:42:58.960 if children have been abused or something like that the 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:02.960 children might be in some cases able to admit that 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:06.160 to a humanoid robot. Yeah, I think so. It makes 0:43:06.160 --> 0:43:08.840 me wonder though about like what would be the applications 0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:13.440 for for adults, Like could we gain something by sharing 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:16.560 our secrets with robots who we have robot confessionals. I 0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:19.839 was wondering the same exact thing, like, is that the 0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:23.279 next step up from post secret you can you can 0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:27.680 confess anonymously. Maybe better than that, but not as destructive 0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:30.080 as confessing to a person is confessing to a non 0:43:30.160 --> 0:43:33.799 judgmental terminator. Well, you know, it does remind me of 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:36.719 various I believe NASA studies that have looked into the 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:42.280 idea of creating like basically a computerized therapist and uh 0:43:42.320 --> 0:43:45.839 that a virtual therapist that one would interact with on 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:51.080 lengthy space missions to check on your, uh psychological well being. 0:43:51.200 --> 0:43:53.719 Isn't that in the movie Moon? Yeah it is. That's right. 0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:55.279 That's a major plot point in that with the Kevin 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:59.319 Spacey voiced robot that he he speaks to and relates to. So, yeah, 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:01.560 it's not it's not too far far off. I think, 0:44:01.760 --> 0:44:03.120 all right, well, I think we should take a quick 0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:05.240 break and then when we come back we will get 0:44:05.280 --> 0:44:08.840 into the weeds with some complicated research on the psychology 0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:17.239 of secrets. Than alright, we're back, okay, Robert. Now we're 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:20.600 gonna get into research on secrets in a couple of 0:44:20.680 --> 0:44:23.799 areas that I want to admit. At the outset, I 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:28.040 think is thorny and confusing. Um So, one of the 0:44:28.040 --> 0:44:31.400 things that I want to focus on is the research 0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:36.400 on the health effects of holding secrets and the supposed 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:41.560 health benefits of revealing secrets. Maybe before we get into this, Robert, 0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:44.720 just what would your intuitions be, Would you just assume 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:48.719 that having secrets is bad for your health? Well, my 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:51.680 my initial reply is that, again, not all secrets are 0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:55.560 created equally, and but I also know that yes, even 0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:58.920 individuals carrying a lot of the anxiety in themselves. You know, 0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:01.360 if you if you can't leap at night because of 0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:04.640 the secret you're keeping, like, there are going to be 0:45:04.719 --> 0:45:07.960 some health effects there. At the same time, I'm also 0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:10.920 hesitant to like to make too many, you know, firm 0:45:10.960 --> 0:45:14.160 declarations about about the health effects there without looking at 0:45:14.200 --> 0:45:17.279 the research, because you do get in you potentially get 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:20.799 into the gray area of like, oh, negative thoughts cause 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:24.960 disease and and so forth that can be taken to 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:29.200 the extreme by by pseudo scientific ideas. One thing that 0:45:29.280 --> 0:45:32.120 I do think is interesting right now is the body 0:45:32.120 --> 0:45:34.640 of scientific research on the mind body connection. You know, 0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:39.520 to what extent your mind affects physiological health. There's lots 0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:43.319 of super solid research indicating that there is an extremely 0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:47.480 serious link between the two, and yet that the whole 0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:50.760 mind body medicine thing can definitely be taken to pseudo 0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:53.680 scientific extremes like you say, and like people can start 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:55.560 to say like that you can you know, think your 0:45:55.640 --> 0:45:59.480 cancer away and stuff like that, which, uh, no evidence 0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:02.560 indicates that's the case. But at the same time, there 0:46:02.560 --> 0:46:04.920 are tons of studies that do seem to be reliable 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:09.719 and do show that mindset has measurable health outcomes, right, 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:11.520 I mean, like I said, you can you can just 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:14.200 look at an extreme example and just imagine somebody having 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:16.759 to keep a secret and it's causing them such anxiety 0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:19.759 that they have trouble either eating or sleeping, a very 0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:23.600 realistic scenario, uh, and one that you has very would 0:46:23.600 --> 0:46:27.280 have very obvious health effects. Yeah, or just simply causing stress. 0:46:27.320 --> 0:46:30.239 And we know that stress. Stress causes the release of 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:34.440 neurotransmitters and hormones that can have effects within the body. 0:46:35.080 --> 0:46:38.680 Having chronic stress is bad for you. But anyway, let's 0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:41.480 look at the research. So back in two thousand two, 0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:45.360 the psychologist Dr Anita Kelly, who is a professor of 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:48.640 psychology at Notre Dame published a book called The Psychology 0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:51.120 of Secrets, and she spent a lot of her career 0:46:51.480 --> 0:46:54.400 studying the effects of secrecy and what happens when people 0:46:54.480 --> 0:46:57.680 reveal secrets. So I want to look at one particular 0:46:57.719 --> 0:47:02.359 paper of hers from Current Directions and Psychological Science, called 0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:06.359 Revealing Personal Secrets, and I thought this was interesting. So 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:11.040 in this paper, Kelly collects the research on the consequences 0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:14.600 of revealing personal secrets. And a personal secret here is 0:47:14.600 --> 0:47:17.640 a secret that directly involves the secret keeper. So it's 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:20.880 not one of those don't tell anybody yet things at work, right, 0:47:21.320 --> 0:47:24.440 It directly involves you. It's a secret about you. And 0:47:24.520 --> 0:47:27.880 then she does something fascinating. She begins to develop a 0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:32.400 framework for win and under what circumstances you should reveal 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:35.040 a secret. I don't know if I've ever heard any 0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:37.839 advice along those lines before. Well, I mean, aside from 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:42.000 the National Crime Prevention Council tips that we heard earlier 0:47:42.040 --> 0:47:44.279 for children, all right, I've never heard anything like this 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:49.040 for adults. So she starts by acknowledging something interesting. For decades, 0:47:49.080 --> 0:47:51.319 at the time this had been published, had been conventional 0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:55.760 wisdom among psychologists and therapists that secret keeping was bad 0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:57.319 for the mind and the body. Like we were just 0:47:57.320 --> 0:48:00.640 talking about it, seems intuitive, right, uh, And Kelly points 0:48:00.680 --> 0:48:03.840 out that research began to bear this out. For example, 0:48:04.080 --> 0:48:07.520 UM research up to that point indicated that people who 0:48:07.600 --> 0:48:12.279 tend to conceal personal secrets had more physical body complaints 0:48:12.320 --> 0:48:17.040 like headaches, nausea, ulcers, and back pain, and they also 0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:20.640 tended to have more anxiety, shyness, and depression than people 0:48:20.719 --> 0:48:25.759 who didn't conceal information. She sites research showing that disclosure 0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:29.440 of personal information is associated with better health outcomes, such 0:48:29.480 --> 0:48:33.560 as better immunological function and fewer trips to the doctor, 0:48:34.239 --> 0:48:37.920 and one experiment showed that even simply writing down a 0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:42.000 disclosure of facts about a private traumatic event had an effect. 0:48:42.200 --> 0:48:45.600 They like, they took medical students and had them right 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:49.920 about personal traumas and then gave them a hepatitis B vaccine, 0:48:50.280 --> 0:48:54.319 and those students had significantly higher antibody levels at four 0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:57.680 and six months later than subjects who wrote about control 0:48:57.760 --> 0:49:01.120 topics that had nothing to do with deeply hell emotional 0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:05.400 events and then received the same vaccine. So if if true, 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:09.080 that's very interesting. And so if it's true that disclosing 0:49:09.080 --> 0:49:12.800 personal secrets leads to better health outcomes on average. Why 0:49:12.960 --> 0:49:15.960 is this the case? Based on our own research, Kelly 0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:19.240 concludes that the reason revealing a secret can have positive 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:22.560 effects is that it allows the secret keeper to gain 0:49:22.680 --> 0:49:26.719 new insights into the secret, leading to closure on the subject. 0:49:26.960 --> 0:49:29.799 And in this model, a kept secret it's you know, 0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:32.239 I use the analogy earlier, it's like a bomb that 0:49:32.280 --> 0:49:34.640 hasn't gone off yet. But maybe a better way to 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:36.920 think about it is that it kept secret is an 0:49:37.000 --> 0:49:41.960 unsolved problem or an unfinished task, and thus it occupies 0:49:42.000 --> 0:49:45.840 an outsized space in the mind and requires frequent attention 0:49:45.960 --> 0:49:51.239 and mental energy. And Kelly actually evokes the Zigarnic effective. 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:53.400 We've discussed that in the show before, Yeah, we have. 0:49:53.480 --> 0:49:56.520 We talked about it in our Tetris episodes. And one 0:49:56.560 --> 0:49:59.520 of the reasons that Tetris might be so compelling is 0:49:59.560 --> 0:50:03.080 that it's an eternally unfinished project and it always wants 0:50:03.160 --> 0:50:07.040 to call you back for more. Uh. But so the 0:50:07.160 --> 0:50:09.760 terms Zigarnic effect. It comes to us from the Russian 0:50:09.760 --> 0:50:14.000 psychologist and psychiatrist Bluma Wolfovna Zigarnic, who lived from nine 0:50:14.520 --> 0:50:18.000 to nine. She first observed it in the nineteen twenties, 0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:22.280 and there there's a quote from Roy Baumeister and Brad 0:50:22.320 --> 0:50:25.560 Bushman in their two thousand eight textbooks Social Psychology and 0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:29.600 Human Nature that says, quote zigarnic effect is a tendency 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:34.080 to experience automatic intrusive thoughts about a goal that one 0:50:34.200 --> 0:50:37.880 has pursued, but the pursuit of which has been interrupted. 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:41.120 That is, if you start working toward a goal and 0:50:41.200 --> 0:50:44.239 fail to get there, thoughts about the goal will keep 0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:47.160 popping into your mind while you're doing other things, as 0:50:47.200 --> 0:50:49.759 if to remind you to get back on track to 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:53.800 finish reaching that goal. So, I mean, keeping a secret 0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:57.000 is a task, yeah, and and and therefore it requires 0:50:57.120 --> 0:51:01.440 requires mental energy to varying degrees to uh to to 0:51:01.600 --> 0:51:07.960 keep it. Like, I keep thinking of this analogy, and 0:51:08.000 --> 0:51:09.400 I'm not the only one to come up with this, 0:51:09.480 --> 0:51:12.120 actually encountered it in some of the studies. We're looking 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:15.279 at the idea of their being like a free flowing stream, right, 0:51:15.640 --> 0:51:17.480 And then every secret you have to keep is like 0:51:17.560 --> 0:51:21.000 putting a stone in there that has to be navigated around, 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:25.680 and it potentially changes the flow of social interaction. And uh, yeah, 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:27.640 if you have if you throw some big rocks in there, 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:30.200 if you if you throw a lot of little rocks 0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:34.000 in there. Then you're gonna potentially alter the flow of 0:51:34.040 --> 0:51:37.840 the river to you know, considerable, You're gonna catastrophic levels. 0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:40.560 Well I know it's just a metaphor, but yeah, exactly. 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:44.000 I mean you you you essentially damn the river, and 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:47.240 a damn con burst right eventually will if there's nothing 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:49.200 to relieve the flow. Yeah, I think I think that 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:50.800 makes perfect sense that it would be tied in with 0:51:51.400 --> 0:51:54.359 sigonic effect. Yeah, so this does feel very intuitive. Now. 0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:57.680 I do think we might undercut this with more research 0:51:57.719 --> 0:52:00.680 we talked about going forward, but it certainly feel is intuitive. 0:52:00.719 --> 0:52:03.640 It's one of those things. It's got that truthiness, right, Yeah, 0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:07.480 but truthiness can be deceiving. But so the idea here 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:10.000 at least is that when when people disclose a secret 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:13.920 and talk through it, and this is key for for Kelly, 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:16.839 it's not just that you reveal the secret, but that 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:19.440 you have the ability to talk through it with someone 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:24.160 and gain insights on it that allow you to achieve closure, 0:52:24.400 --> 0:52:28.279 to sort of close the book and understand something. And 0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:31.600 that's of course going to be more complicated than it sounds, 0:52:31.640 --> 0:52:34.040 depending on what the secret is. I mean, for instance, 0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:36.160 on one, on one hand, it would seem to indicate 0:52:36.160 --> 0:52:41.239 that yes, seeking say professional help for whatever your quote 0:52:41.280 --> 0:52:43.880 unquote secret might be. So, for instance, if if it 0:52:44.239 --> 0:52:46.839 has some sort of you know, abuse connotation, and then 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:49.960 you you say, you know, call up the rain hotline, 0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:51.960 you're able to talk with someone who can steer you 0:52:52.000 --> 0:52:55.000 in the right direction of how best to to deal 0:52:55.040 --> 0:52:58.160 with this. But on the other hand, like closing the 0:52:58.200 --> 0:53:01.360 book on it is easier said than done, right right totally, 0:53:01.480 --> 0:53:06.040 So yeah, well, in under what's you would to really 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:08.359 close the book on a secret? It has to be 0:53:08.400 --> 0:53:10.600 a rather pointless secret, has to be one of those 0:53:10.680 --> 0:53:15.120 dumb work secrets or or you know, mildly interesting social secrets. Well, 0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:17.000 close to the book is my language. I mean that 0:53:17.000 --> 0:53:19.000 that might not be the best metaphor, but what it 0:53:19.080 --> 0:53:21.920 is is that you want to achieve some kind of resolution, 0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:25.960 You gain new insights that make this no longer an 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:29.279 unsolved problem. So I think one example would be if 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:33.440 if someone has has been keeping their say, sexual orientation 0:53:33.880 --> 0:53:38.440 a a secret there there closeted, and therefore like coming 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:41.440 out of the closet even did like a select group 0:53:41.480 --> 0:53:45.640 of people that would enable you to then like own 0:53:45.680 --> 0:53:48.120 it and deal with it. In a new way. But 0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:50.239 it wouldn't mean that you're like you're done, you know, 0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:53.520 like it's really the beginning of a new phase in 0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:56.759 that particular journey. Yeah, totally. And that that's, as we've said, 0:53:56.800 --> 0:53:59.240 not all secrets are created equally. That that's a different 0:53:59.320 --> 0:54:02.760 kind of secret them many other secrets, like for example, 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:04.880 and some of the research we've looked at today shows 0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:07.760 that sexual orientation is very often the kind of secret 0:54:07.840 --> 0:54:11.200 where where a person feels they can reveal to some 0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:13.279 people and not to others. So you have to you 0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:17.080 have to play management of different revelation groups and and 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.520 to a certain extent, manage been a different identity, different 0:54:19.600 --> 0:54:22.600 versions of yourself. I mean, of course that everyone does 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:26.520 that to certain degrees, I think, but but we're talking 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:28.800 about having to do it to an agree where it 0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:34.560 would have potentially negative effects on your on your psyche. 0:54:34.719 --> 0:54:37.600 And that's a great point because revealing a secret might 0:54:37.640 --> 0:54:40.880 not always lead to positive outcomes, right, And and Kelly 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:42.800 acknowledges this. So she's trying to come up with the 0:54:42.880 --> 0:54:45.600 rubric of when should you reveal a secret? You've got 0:54:45.600 --> 0:54:48.880 a secret that's eating away at you, when and where 0:54:48.920 --> 0:54:51.880 and how should you reveal it. Uh, it appears that 0:54:52.000 --> 0:54:55.160 the circumstances under which you reveal the secret are important. 0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:58.280 So obviously you can imagine lots of revelations that would 0:54:58.320 --> 0:55:02.319 make everything worse. You can iagine a scenario where you 0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:04.680 know you've been cheating on your spouse with an alien 0:55:04.760 --> 0:55:10.160 robot from Enceladus, and you know you're happy in your marriage, 0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:13.000 but you know that happened. That happened maybe maybe not 0:55:13.120 --> 0:55:16.560 say it's ongoing, but it happened one time, and you 0:55:16.640 --> 0:55:19.560 reveal it to your spouse and your spouse is not forgiving, 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:22.840 and he or she becomes angry, and this leads to 0:55:23.000 --> 0:55:26.560 alienation in your relationship, and maybe it ends the relationship. 0:55:27.320 --> 0:55:30.520 Are you better off then? I mean you might say 0:55:30.560 --> 0:55:33.160 maybe maybe it was worth it to be honest, But 0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:35.400 then you could also say, well what if it's destroyed 0:55:35.440 --> 0:55:39.480 the most important relationship in my life. Um, So there 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:41.080 are a lot of questions. It comes back to the 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:44.000 woman in the snow, right, because on one level, yeah, 0:55:44.040 --> 0:55:47.080 the husband gets to to live, you know, secret free, 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:49.799 but he no longer has his wife and and he 0:55:49.840 --> 0:55:52.640 has to tell his children in the morning that hey, sorry, 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:56.000 Mom's not here anymore because Dad's allowsy secret keeper. Yeah, 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:58.879 so it's confusing, like it might better, might be better 0:55:58.920 --> 0:56:01.319 to be honest in the long run, but it might 0:56:01.360 --> 0:56:03.719 not be. I mean, it might be just destructive to 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:07.560 people's lives in the long run. And so so taking 0:56:07.640 --> 0:56:14.400 into account complications and consequences is a real question. Another complication. 0:56:15.320 --> 0:56:18.560 Kelly points out, research is pretty clear people don't usually 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:22.120 keep your secrets when you share them. One of one 0:56:22.320 --> 0:56:25.200 piece of research she sites is from which found the 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:27.960 college students. So, okay, this is college students. Maybe they 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:30.880 don't keep secrets particularly well, but at least in this group, 0:56:31.520 --> 0:56:35.360 when students shared an emotional event with a confidante, the 0:56:35.440 --> 0:56:39.200 confidante reported telling at least one other person about that 0:56:39.280 --> 0:56:42.880 disclosure in sixty six to seventy eight percent of the cases. 0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:46.160 So most of the time, you're gonna go tell somebody 0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:50.640 else about this deep emotional thing that somebody shared with you. Again, 0:56:50.680 --> 0:56:52.520 that's why we need the robots. The robot can be 0:56:52.560 --> 0:56:54.840 programmed to be a secret keeper. You have a robot, 0:56:54.880 --> 0:56:58.400 it's only purpose is to keep your secret. Then do 0:56:58.440 --> 0:57:00.880 you have to destroy the robot or is it important 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:03.200 that the robot continue to exist. Well, because we come 0:57:03.200 --> 0:57:07.640 back to our our initial philosophical discussion that the robot 0:57:07.680 --> 0:57:10.160 has to know the secret, understand the secret. Otherwise the 0:57:10.239 --> 0:57:13.760 robot is not a secret keeper. It's just it's it's deleted. 0:57:13.760 --> 0:57:16.640 It's the same as telling somebody and then murdering them. Okay, 0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:18.800 so we cut to the chase here. When should you 0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:22.840 reveal a personal secret for maximum benefit? Well, Kelly thinks 0:57:22.920 --> 0:57:25.600 in in this paper at least, that you should reveal 0:57:25.640 --> 0:57:28.240 a personal secret when you've been able to identify a 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:32.040 confidante who can be trusted not to tell your secret 0:57:32.080 --> 0:57:35.120 to others, and that's kind of rare, who you can 0:57:35.160 --> 0:57:38.160 depend on to be non judgmental, so they're not going 0:57:38.200 --> 0:57:41.840 to say, like you monster, and who you can expect 0:57:41.920 --> 0:57:45.000 to help you gain new insights into your secret and 0:57:45.040 --> 0:57:49.640 bring you feelings of closure. Uh So that's interesting because 0:57:49.640 --> 0:57:54.240 that sounds to me like she's basically describing a counselor therapist. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 0:57:54.240 --> 0:57:56.400 have the same thought, Like that would seem to line 0:57:56.480 --> 0:58:00.640 up with you know, a a certified you know, self 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:03.600 help hotlines such as you know, suicide prevention or rain 0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:07.160 or something like that, or or like an individual counselor there. 0:58:07.640 --> 0:58:10.800 It's like either way, it's somebody who it's their job 0:58:10.880 --> 0:58:14.720 to not be judgmental, but to just try to help you. Uh, 0:58:14.760 --> 0:58:17.560 it's their job to try to help you find insights 0:58:17.640 --> 0:58:21.000 and and understand things about yourself and about what you're 0:58:21.040 --> 0:58:24.000 telling them. And it's part of their job to keep 0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:27.560 you keep everything confidential. All right? So, well that sounds good. 0:58:27.560 --> 0:58:30.320 Then what's the what's the possible downside? Well, you know, 0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:33.400 so I mentioned a minute ago that part of what 0:58:33.480 --> 0:58:36.000 went into her study was the idea that their negative 0:58:36.000 --> 0:58:39.800 health consequences for from keeping secrets, and I think the 0:58:39.840 --> 0:58:43.080 picture on that is not entirely clear. There have been 0:58:43.080 --> 0:58:48.000 plenty of studies showing some kind of correlation between negative 0:58:48.040 --> 0:58:53.320 health outcome from keeping secrets, but just the results are 0:58:53.360 --> 0:58:57.320 scattered and inconsistent. Um, So, for example, what if it's 0:58:57.360 --> 0:59:00.960 not keeping a secret that does my charm to your health? 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:03.760 But what if some of these results are triggered by 0:59:03.800 --> 0:59:06.840 a different level of correlation, meaning that the kind of 0:59:06.880 --> 0:59:10.720 people who keep more secrets naturally tend to be less 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:14.479 healthy people to begin with? M hm, Does that make sense? 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:17.560 So it's not that keeping a secret makes you unhealthy, 0:59:17.600 --> 0:59:21.720 but that unhealthy people are more likely to keep secrets. Okay, 0:59:21.880 --> 0:59:25.080 I mean that's like from a scientific standpoint, that's that's 0:59:25.120 --> 0:59:26.920 that makes perfect synse. That would be something you'd want 0:59:26.960 --> 0:59:30.440 to explore. Of course, it's hard to imagine a real life, 0:59:30.880 --> 0:59:33.760 like conscious version of this way, like, oh, that one 0:59:33.800 --> 0:59:37.800 looks sickly, that's my that's my secret keeper. Well, so, 0:59:37.840 --> 0:59:41.520 Anita Kelly was the same author as the earlier study. 0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:43.400 She was one of the authors of a later study 0:59:43.440 --> 0:59:46.600 along with Jonathan Yip, called is keeping a secret or 0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:51.040 being a secretive person linked to UH Psychological Symptoms in 0:59:51.080 --> 0:59:53.800 the Journal of Personality in two thousand six, And this 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:57.960 study tried to compare negative health symptoms across time to 0:59:58.240 --> 1:00:01.480 figure out whether keeping a specif effects secret or generally 1:00:01.520 --> 1:00:04.560 being a secretive person had a greater effect on health outcomes. 1:00:04.720 --> 1:00:07.720 And in this study, keeping a specific secret so when 1:00:07.720 --> 1:00:09.800 when they found people said yeah, I have a secret 1:00:09.840 --> 1:00:13.320 I'm keeping, that did not in fact correlate to worse 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:16.880 health outcomes. What they found was, in fact that people 1:00:16.920 --> 1:00:21.600 who were generally secretive people were more vulnerable to more 1:00:21.760 --> 1:00:25.240 symptoms to begin with, uh yeah. I also saw an 1:00:25.320 --> 1:00:28.880 article on Psychology today with the uh with with Kelly, 1:00:28.960 --> 1:00:32.080 and she she pointed out yet the workshow that keeping 1:00:32.080 --> 1:00:34.520 the major secret did not predict worse health at all, 1:00:34.560 --> 1:00:36.520 but that she did say that you can argue that 1:00:36.600 --> 1:00:40.040 secret keeping is still an important part of developing intimacy, etcetera. 1:00:40.240 --> 1:00:43.560 So you have to factor in all these other aspects 1:00:43.560 --> 1:00:48.560 of secret keeping, you know, in addition to the health obviously, right. Yeah. 1:00:48.600 --> 1:00:50.720 So this is not to say like, if if secrecy 1:00:50.800 --> 1:00:53.920 doesn't actually affect your health, then there's nothing to worry about. 1:00:54.200 --> 1:00:56.760 You know, it might affect relationships and everything like that, 1:00:57.480 --> 1:01:00.360 but then maybe it does affect health. And so this 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:03.200 is where things just continue to be messy. Kelly is 1:01:03.280 --> 1:01:06.080 one of the authors of another paper with Robert Rodriguez 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:09.360 from two dozen six called Health Effects of Disclosing Secrets 1:01:09.400 --> 1:01:14.600 to Imagine Accepting versus non Accepting Confidants in the Journal 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:18.120 of Social and Clinical Psychology, And this one seems to 1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:20.880 go back in the other direction, and just to be 1:01:21.000 --> 1:01:23.560 real quick, basically what this study did is it had 1:01:23.600 --> 1:01:29.200 students write down confessions of personal secrets while imagining three 1:01:29.200 --> 1:01:34.320 different conditions, either imagining writing to an accepting confidante somebody 1:01:34.320 --> 1:01:37.720 who is there listening to you to what you confess 1:01:37.800 --> 1:01:41.160 and is not judging you to a non accepting confidant 1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:44.600 or to no confidant, just writing into the void. And 1:01:44.640 --> 1:01:46.680 what they found was that the students who wrote the 1:01:46.720 --> 1:01:52.560 confession to an imagined accepting confidant had reported fewer illnesses 1:01:53.160 --> 1:01:56.360 after eight weeks than did the ones who wrote to 1:01:56.440 --> 1:01:59.760 a non accepting confidant. And if that that seems kind 1:01:59.760 --> 1:02:03.280 of believable. But if that's true, that that makes you 1:02:03.320 --> 1:02:06.760 think that just like the imagining of having a secret 1:02:06.840 --> 1:02:11.520 accepted or rejected is incredibly powerful and and produces long 1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:13.760 running stress effects on the body. Well, I mean it 1:02:13.800 --> 1:02:17.160 comes back down to the idea of survival within groups. 1:02:17.680 --> 1:02:20.480 You know, for the vast majority of human history. So 1:02:20.600 --> 1:02:22.640 even in the study of the author's pointed out that 1:02:22.880 --> 1:02:24.760 you know, if you're if you're keeping personal secrets, you're 1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:29.840 basically running scenarios about being ostracized for for for the 1:02:29.880 --> 1:02:32.120 secret you're keeping, and therefore you're kind of in a 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:36.600 constant state of fearing your survival. Because again, nowadays, if 1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:40.000 you're ostracized from your social group, it doesn't necessarily mean 1:02:40.040 --> 1:02:42.760 you're going to starve to death in the wilderness. But 1:02:43.040 --> 1:02:45.360 for the vast majority of human history that was more 1:02:45.400 --> 1:02:47.120 of a reality that was that was more of a 1:02:47.200 --> 1:02:52.439 legitimate possibility of of being ostracized by your immediate group. Yeah, 1:02:53.400 --> 1:02:54.760 so I don't know. What. What do you think about 1:02:54.800 --> 1:02:58.080 the health effects of secrecy, Robert, I'm getting a from 1:02:58.120 --> 1:03:00.960 the research I've looked at, I'm getting a very jumbled picture. 1:03:01.600 --> 1:03:04.800 I do think that there is some kind of there 1:03:04.840 --> 1:03:08.440 does appear to be some kind of correlation between secrecy 1:03:08.480 --> 1:03:13.560 and some negative health outcomes. But the research does appear 1:03:13.600 --> 1:03:16.320 to go back and forth, and it's not all always 1:03:16.320 --> 1:03:19.920 focused on the same question asked the same way every time. 1:03:20.440 --> 1:03:22.560 So this is one of those areas where I don't 1:03:22.560 --> 1:03:27.000 feel super confident to pronounce solid discoveries just yet. Yeah, 1:03:27.120 --> 1:03:29.040 and again, it just it comes back again to the 1:03:29.120 --> 1:03:32.360 unequal nature of secrets and even like it's going to 1:03:32.440 --> 1:03:35.200 be relative to the individual, because you could have one 1:03:35.240 --> 1:03:38.040 individual that can can keep the secret of what happened 1:03:38.040 --> 1:03:40.600 in the dark cave, uh, you know, and they can 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:43.040 just file it away with a lot more ease, you know, 1:03:43.080 --> 1:03:45.760 maybe maybe maybe due to some sort of unique wiring 1:03:45.800 --> 1:03:48.880 of their you know, their cognitive equipment, but they're able 1:03:48.920 --> 1:03:52.479 to sort of compartmentalize it and keep that secret. Someone 1:03:52.520 --> 1:03:54.360 else they could They could be in the scenario where 1:03:54.400 --> 1:03:56.880 they cannot sleep at night because they keep remembering the 1:03:57.160 --> 1:04:00.280 glowing red eyes from the cave. Well, yeah, definitely. Because 1:04:00.960 --> 1:04:03.840 a secret, obviously, in many of the cases where it's 1:04:03.840 --> 1:04:06.600 going to be most destructive, is highly related to the 1:04:06.640 --> 1:04:09.200 idea of guilt or shame. And if you're a type 1:04:09.240 --> 1:04:12.080 of person who, say, has a low guilt quotient, I 1:04:12.080 --> 1:04:14.400 don't want to say you're a psychopath or something like that, 1:04:14.440 --> 1:04:17.280 but if you don't tend to experience much of a 1:04:17.320 --> 1:04:20.880 guilty conscience, I can't imagine secrets bothering you all that 1:04:21.000 --> 1:04:26.120 much unless you're just constantly worried about being discovered, you know, 1:04:26.240 --> 1:04:30.680 not so much worried about the original content of the secret. Yeah, 1:04:30.720 --> 1:04:33.600 and U. And one way to look at this might 1:04:33.640 --> 1:04:35.680 be to perform an exercise where you look at your 1:04:35.720 --> 1:04:38.280 own life and like, move your secrets out of the way, 1:04:38.640 --> 1:04:41.920 and then think of things that you don't recognize his 1:04:42.040 --> 1:04:45.880 secrets that but could be reclassified as secrets if you 1:04:45.960 --> 1:04:48.800 cared enough about them. You know what I'm saying, Give 1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:51.840 me an example, what do you mean? Okay, so say, 1:04:52.400 --> 1:04:56.120 let's let's see what would be an example. Um, I 1:04:56.160 --> 1:04:57.880 guess we guess one would be like what if I 1:04:57.960 --> 1:04:59.800 what if I stay up one night my wife is 1:04:59.800 --> 1:05:02.800 gon to bed and I watch say raw Head Rex 1:05:02.920 --> 1:05:07.360 or some some horror movie of questionable quality, and I'm 1:05:07.400 --> 1:05:10.040 not I'm not keeping it a secret. It's just in 1:05:10.080 --> 1:05:11.800 the background. Maybe I don't even tell her because she 1:05:11.960 --> 1:05:15.000 because I know that she probably doesn't care and doesn't 1:05:15.000 --> 1:05:16.840 want to hear about the plot of raw Head Rex 1:05:17.080 --> 1:05:20.560 r um. But if I were to, But but I 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:23.480 could re classify that information and say, no, this is 1:05:23.520 --> 1:05:27.080 a secret. She cannot know about my watching raw Head Rex. 1:05:27.120 --> 1:05:29.560 You know, if you start sort of tweaking the reasoning 1:05:29.680 --> 1:05:34.320 for why you didn't reveal this, Uh, then it can 1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:36.840 it can take on new form. Yeah. I mean, as 1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:39.680 we talked about earlier, it seems very much that secrecy 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:42.160 is in the mind not of the beholder, but of 1:05:42.160 --> 1:05:45.320 the secret keeper. Uh. And in what they want other 1:05:45.360 --> 1:05:48.080 people to know. I mean, so you might be a 1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:50.560 person who ate the whole sleeve of oreos or whatever, 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:54.000 or the whole sleeve of saltines for some reason. Uh. 1:05:54.040 --> 1:05:56.960 And and that's just you know, you're a comedian, and 1:05:57.040 --> 1:05:59.240 you make it, you build a whole bit around that fact. 1:05:59.280 --> 1:06:01.480 It's funny I the whole slave of oreos, or you 1:06:01.520 --> 1:06:04.560 might be a person who's legitimately ashamed and embarrassed and 1:06:04.640 --> 1:06:08.800 wouldn't want people to know. I think that's a good example. Yeah, 1:06:09.040 --> 1:06:11.400 And it doesn't have anything to do with the opinions 1:06:11.440 --> 1:06:14.280 of other people as they exist outside you. It's just 1:06:14.400 --> 1:06:17.120 what you think about them and what kind of person 1:06:17.160 --> 1:06:19.919 am I. Yeah, alright, we're gonna take a quick break 1:06:19.960 --> 1:06:21.840 and we come back. We're going to get into the 1:06:21.880 --> 1:06:25.640 physical burdens of secrecy and uh and at the very 1:06:25.760 --> 1:06:33.640 end we'll briefly discuss nudity. Than all right, we're back. So, Robert, 1:06:33.680 --> 1:06:38.760 here's the thing. Do you ever think about metaphorical perception, Like, 1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:43.040 it's no surprise that when we perceive physical quantities are 1:06:43.080 --> 1:06:46.720 perceptions are colored by our thoughts, right, Like, for example, 1:06:46.800 --> 1:06:49.840 if you're tired, you might estimate that it's actually later 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:52.320 in the day than it is, right, something like that 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:56.480 makes sense. But one odd way of thinking about influences 1:06:56.480 --> 1:07:01.360 on our perception is when our metaphors color perception. Here's 1:07:01.360 --> 1:07:04.960 an example. A two thousand eleven study by Schneider at 1:07:05.000 --> 1:07:08.720 all I found that if you think the contents of 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:12.760 a book are important, you judge the book to weigh 1:07:12.800 --> 1:07:17.480 more when you hold it. Like so importance. We have 1:07:17.560 --> 1:07:21.240 a metaphor that says something that's important is heavy. It's 1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:24.439 a weighty matter. So like someone who puts a lot 1:07:24.520 --> 1:07:28.320 of faith and say a Bible or a Koran or 1:07:28.320 --> 1:07:31.040 some of their sacred text like holding it in their hand, 1:07:31.640 --> 1:07:34.920 there on some level perceiving it as being heavier than 1:07:34.960 --> 1:07:39.160 an equal, you know, an equally sized, equally weighted volume 1:07:39.280 --> 1:07:44.600 of say vampire romance romance books. Yeah. Uh, And so 1:07:44.880 --> 1:07:46.720 I do want to point out that actually the authors 1:07:46.720 --> 1:07:48.600 of the study I just cited do think that the 1:07:48.600 --> 1:07:51.680 association between weight and importance is actually deeper than just 1:07:51.760 --> 1:07:58.040 metaphorical association. But clearly some amount of metaphorical association is there. So, 1:07:58.160 --> 1:08:01.760 if we conceive of secrets as a burden, as we 1:08:01.880 --> 1:08:04.600 often have throughout the episode, uh, you know, it's something 1:08:04.640 --> 1:08:08.480 you're carrying around with you, does that exact a metaphorical 1:08:09.080 --> 1:08:12.960 psychological toll on the body and the mind? Does your 1:08:13.000 --> 1:08:16.920 body treat you as if you're carrying something when you're 1:08:16.960 --> 1:08:21.160 carrying a secret, carrying something heavy? That's an interesting idea. 1:08:21.200 --> 1:08:23.960 I mean, I've actually heard people say, oh, so and 1:08:24.000 --> 1:08:26.720 so really laid some heavy stuff on me, you know, 1:08:27.200 --> 1:08:29.080 like bringing to mind the idea that you were you 1:08:29.080 --> 1:08:31.439 were on the ground, and they have they have physically 1:08:31.439 --> 1:08:33.040 placed a weight on your body, and now it is 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:35.280 more difficult to move because of it. I want to 1:08:35.280 --> 1:08:38.639 cite a scientifically rigorous case study, which is that there's 1:08:38.720 --> 1:08:41.800 a scene where there's a character on The Sopranos who's uh, 1:08:42.439 --> 1:08:45.040 one of the early seasons, who's constantly having back pain, 1:08:45.520 --> 1:08:48.600 and it turns out this character is harboring a secret betrayal, 1:08:49.160 --> 1:08:52.559 and the psychiatrist character in the show, she says, you know, well, 1:08:52.600 --> 1:08:55.960 a secret is a heavy load. It might cause feelings 1:08:56.000 --> 1:08:58.680 like that. Now, of course that's fiction, but I can 1:08:58.680 --> 1:09:01.920 see things like that happening in real life. But of 1:09:01.920 --> 1:09:05.240 course that's just our intuition. How about if we test it. Well, 1:09:05.400 --> 1:09:09.960 some people have been testing this and the answers are complicated. 1:09:10.000 --> 1:09:12.400 This is another one, I'm sorry to say where the 1:09:12.439 --> 1:09:15.320 answers are not clear. Uh that there's gonna be some 1:09:15.360 --> 1:09:17.680 back and forth in complications. So you've gotta stick with 1:09:17.760 --> 1:09:20.960 us for a minute. So there's an original study from 1:09:21.200 --> 1:09:24.360 two thousand twelve in the Journal of experimental psychology by 1:09:24.680 --> 1:09:29.080 Michael Slapian at All called the Physical Burdens of Secrecy, 1:09:29.240 --> 1:09:32.479 in which the researchers found that people who kept big 1:09:32.520 --> 1:09:37.439 secrets such as marital infidelity or sexual orientation made different 1:09:37.600 --> 1:09:43.200 judgments of physical quantities having to do with work. So, 1:09:43.280 --> 1:09:46.240 for example, test subjects who were made to think about 1:09:46.280 --> 1:09:49.160 a secret that they kept, either a big secret or 1:09:49.200 --> 1:09:52.439 a small secret. They were then asked to look at 1:09:52.520 --> 1:09:55.719 some pictures. So the ones who had been thinking about 1:09:55.760 --> 1:10:00.959 a big secret judged a pictured hill to be steeper. 1:10:01.920 --> 1:10:04.879 Just looking at the photo of a head on hill slope, 1:10:05.240 --> 1:10:08.879 People who had been thinking about a quote big secret 1:10:09.320 --> 1:10:12.240 thought that the incline was about forty six degrees, as 1:10:12.240 --> 1:10:15.400 opposed to people who thought about a small secret, who 1:10:15.400 --> 1:10:18.599 thought that it was about thirty three degrees. They also 1:10:18.680 --> 1:10:22.599 apparently judge distances to be farther. Now, this was tested 1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:26.360 by having subjects toss bean bags towards a target. Those 1:10:26.400 --> 1:10:29.840 who thought about a big secret through their bean bags farther, 1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:33.280 which the researchers interpreted to mean that they judged the 1:10:33.320 --> 1:10:36.760 distance to the target to be greater. Also, in a 1:10:36.840 --> 1:10:39.839 separate test among subjects who had cheated on their partner. 1:10:40.479 --> 1:10:44.479 They found that the subjects who reported more psychological burden 1:10:44.640 --> 1:10:47.599 from their infidelity, meaning those who thought about it more, 1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:52.200 judge tasks like carrying groceries and helping someone move to 1:10:52.360 --> 1:10:56.800 require more effort. And then a final study found that 1:10:57.280 --> 1:11:00.840 a test group who had to conceal their sexual orientation 1:11:01.479 --> 1:11:04.839 was less likely to help with physical work like moving 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:07.760 stacks of books than a control group who had to 1:11:07.800 --> 1:11:13.840 conceal an uncontroversial personality fact like your level of extra version. So, 1:11:13.920 --> 1:11:18.000 other studies have shown that people carrying a heavy load 1:11:18.560 --> 1:11:21.719 judge hills to be steeper and distances to be farther, 1:11:22.400 --> 1:11:24.840 and that you can kind of see why that would be, right. 1:11:24.880 --> 1:11:28.200 The implication here is that the mind is interpreting the 1:11:28.280 --> 1:11:31.960 secret as it would a literal burden. Yeah, and I 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:34.360 mean you could also take it apart and say that 1:11:34.960 --> 1:11:38.400 it's almost as if the individual knows that it's going 1:11:38.439 --> 1:11:40.679 to not only there gonna have to climb that hill, 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:43.240 but they have to climb the hill while thinking about 1:11:43.240 --> 1:11:46.000 this secret, like this secret around in their head. Yeah, 1:11:46.000 --> 1:11:49.240 and sorry if that point isn't clear. Like so one 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:51.320 thing that's been shown in researches. You put a heavy 1:11:51.360 --> 1:11:55.240 backpack on. Somebody, once they've got that heavy backpack on, 1:11:55.400 --> 1:11:57.960 they think a hill looks steeper than the same person 1:11:58.000 --> 1:12:01.280 without a backpack, or they think a distant target looks 1:12:01.320 --> 1:12:04.840 farther away than without that backpack on. And and that 1:12:04.840 --> 1:12:07.679 that's physically, I mean, you can see why that would be. 1:12:07.760 --> 1:12:11.640 You're factoring in the expense of doing it with this 1:12:11.760 --> 1:12:15.040 extra weight. And so the question is does this psychological 1:12:15.120 --> 1:12:18.800 weight play a similar role in the mind. Now, none 1:12:18.840 --> 1:12:21.400 of these studies actually say you get a better workout 1:12:21.479 --> 1:12:23.599 with a heavy seat, because otherwise that's what you need 1:12:23.600 --> 1:12:25.320 in a personal training and be like, all right, you're 1:12:25.320 --> 1:12:27.360 gonna really get out, You're gonna kill it today. And 1:12:27.400 --> 1:12:31.519 speaking of killing, I want killed a Doberman pincher. Now, 1:12:31.560 --> 1:12:33.640 go out, go go go get it, go go go 1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:37.479 kill it. Uh, none of the research is saying that. No. 1:12:37.600 --> 1:12:39.960 In fact, you'd imagine it's probably the opposite, right, Like, 1:12:40.040 --> 1:12:43.120 you're you're not getting the physical benefits of of having 1:12:43.439 --> 1:12:45.320 you know, a weight belt on in your workout, but 1:12:45.360 --> 1:12:49.519 you're having the mental difficulty of getting through your workout 1:12:50.200 --> 1:12:53.880 bearing this this load. Right. Yeah, yeah, Now, I want 1:12:53.880 --> 1:12:55.920 to I want to stress, as I said, going in 1:12:55.960 --> 1:12:58.839 that there's some complications to this, and so we shouldn't 1:12:58.880 --> 1:13:01.920 just take these results at face value. But before we 1:13:01.960 --> 1:13:04.280 get to the complications, I want to talk about one 1:13:04.320 --> 1:13:06.840 more follow up study by Slapy and Massa Campo and 1:13:06.920 --> 1:13:11.840 Embody called Relieving the Burdens of Secrecy. Revealing secrets influences 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:15.160 judgments of hill slant and distance, and so this was 1:13:15.200 --> 1:13:17.719 a follow up study, and the authors found that making 1:13:17.840 --> 1:13:20.800 test subjects think about a secret caused them to see 1:13:20.840 --> 1:13:23.960 distances is longer and hills is steeper yet again, but 1:13:24.040 --> 1:13:27.879 that anonymously revealing details of a secret seemed to mostly 1:13:27.960 --> 1:13:31.919 eliminate this effect. And as in the first study, estimates 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:36.320 were altered for perceptions of physical space relating to body exertion, 1:13:36.400 --> 1:13:39.120 but not to numerical estimates generally, So you could have 1:13:39.120 --> 1:13:42.479 people estimate other kinds of things that aren't related to 1:13:42.520 --> 1:13:45.160 how your body would need to do some work, and 1:13:45.320 --> 1:13:47.640 it doesn't seem to affect that, so it wouldn't make 1:13:47.640 --> 1:13:51.880 you bad at math. It's not just not just that 1:13:51.960 --> 1:13:56.320 having a secret makes you generally estimate higher numbers. It's 1:13:56.360 --> 1:13:59.120 that specifically would make things that you might have to 1:13:59.360 --> 1:14:04.559 like distances or slopes, you'd after traverse look more difficult. Okay, 1:14:04.600 --> 1:14:06.880 so that's the follow up study. It seems like that 1:14:07.040 --> 1:14:10.679 they find that in addition to their original findings, if 1:14:10.760 --> 1:14:14.120 you if you reveal your secret, you might get some relief. 1:14:15.040 --> 1:14:17.960 But it's good to check for follow up research because 1:14:17.960 --> 1:14:21.960 in this case, other studies attempted to replicate slapians original 1:14:22.000 --> 1:14:25.080 research from two thousand twelve and failed to get the 1:14:25.160 --> 1:14:29.960 same results. Um, so I wanna cite this one by 1:14:30.479 --> 1:14:34.080 perture at all. The burden of secrecy, no effect on 1:14:34.160 --> 1:14:36.720 hills land estimation, and bean bag throwing. And this is 1:14:36.760 --> 1:14:41.360 in the Journal of Experimental Psychology. Some bean bag throwing 1:14:41.400 --> 1:14:45.080 in that in that that article title. Though, yeah, yeah, 1:14:45.120 --> 1:14:46.839 it's a little it might be a little bit salty. 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:49.560 But they're also very polite and that they thank Slapian 1:14:49.680 --> 1:14:52.320 for they say he cooperated with them and trying to 1:14:52.360 --> 1:14:56.360 help them replicate the experiments exactly. So, yeah, they replicated 1:14:56.400 --> 1:14:58.840 the experimental procedure as closely as they could with the 1:14:58.880 --> 1:15:02.360 help of Michael Slapy, and they failed to replicate the 1:15:02.400 --> 1:15:06.759 findings of the original study, calling those results into question. Also, 1:15:06.840 --> 1:15:10.759 it's worth noting that these researchers had larger sample sizes 1:15:10.800 --> 1:15:15.439 in their replications study, giving their results greater statistical weight. Uh. 1:15:15.520 --> 1:15:19.280 They also performed a meta analysis combining with other existing 1:15:19.280 --> 1:15:22.920 attempts to replicate the original results, some of which claimed 1:15:22.960 --> 1:15:25.760 to find the same results. But they found that when 1:15:25.800 --> 1:15:30.040 results were combined across the existing studies, the correlation between 1:15:30.080 --> 1:15:32.920 having a big secret and the judgment of a steep 1:15:32.960 --> 1:15:36.920 looking hill was not significant. However, there may be some 1:15:37.040 --> 1:15:39.800 nuance here. So now everything's up in the air, right, 1:15:39.840 --> 1:15:42.360 you have this original study of claims to find this effect, 1:15:42.479 --> 1:15:45.040 people look for it with even larger sample sizes and 1:15:45.080 --> 1:15:48.880 don't find anything at all. Uh, And so what's going on? 1:15:49.479 --> 1:15:52.720 Are we just in bogus land here? Well, Slapian did 1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:55.960 try to introduce some nuance with another study, and this 1:15:56.040 --> 1:15:58.720 might get at what the problem was. So what he 1:15:58.800 --> 1:16:02.519 claims is in a study from that, Maybe it's the 1:16:03.160 --> 1:16:07.080 problem was dealing with this supposed size of the secret, Right, 1:16:07.120 --> 1:16:09.879 they were dealing with these concepts of a big secret 1:16:10.040 --> 1:16:14.200 versus a small secret. And maybe it's not actually that 1:16:14.280 --> 1:16:16.920 the size of the secret has any effect on how 1:16:16.960 --> 1:16:19.240 you judge the steepness of the hill, but that a 1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:24.360 person's level of preoccupation with the secret does more reliably 1:16:24.439 --> 1:16:26.920 predict how steep the hill seems. In other words, it's 1:16:26.920 --> 1:16:31.000 not really what the secret is, it's how much the secret, 1:16:31.080 --> 1:16:33.719 larger or small, is eating away at you and keeps 1:16:33.760 --> 1:16:38.280 intruding on your mind. Okay, so here's a possible example. Um, 1:16:38.439 --> 1:16:43.320 what if I told you do not tell Christian that 1:16:43.360 --> 1:16:48.479 I bought a new box of pins and pins of pens. 1:16:48.520 --> 1:16:51.320 Ink pens, Oh, ink pens, don't tell. I was imagining 1:16:51.320 --> 1:16:53.800 like pins like a pincushion, Like, what are you going 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:56.679 to do with pens? Stick them into the Christian doll? 1:16:56.880 --> 1:16:58.640 We'll see. That's the thing. You wouldn't know, you, So 1:16:58.760 --> 1:17:01.040 you might find yourself running this through your head. Why 1:17:01.040 --> 1:17:02.439 does he want me to keep the secret of the 1:17:02.479 --> 1:17:04.280 inkpens and just a new box of ink pens? What 1:17:04.280 --> 1:17:06.519 could what could possibly be going on? So, even though 1:17:06.520 --> 1:17:09.760 there's no actual weight to it, you might return to 1:17:09.840 --> 1:17:11.559 it again and again just trying to figure out why 1:17:11.640 --> 1:17:15.519 it's a secret. So that that's that's my one possible 1:17:15.560 --> 1:17:19.080 take on that, because otherwise, if it's not an important secret, 1:17:19.080 --> 1:17:20.960 why would you come back to it unless there's something 1:17:21.000 --> 1:17:25.400 cantalizing about it, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, or you're 1:17:25.400 --> 1:17:27.280 really proud of it. That could be another example. So 1:17:27.400 --> 1:17:29.519 like the boss that you're you know, really hoping to 1:17:29.520 --> 1:17:32.479 be in the ends with, they share some just you know, dumb, 1:17:32.640 --> 1:17:35.400 sup work secret. But then you keep thinking, oh, man, 1:17:35.840 --> 1:17:38.120 they shared the secret with me. This is I'm on 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:41.080 the inside. Now I'm I'm I'm in the upper echelon, 1:17:41.160 --> 1:17:43.920 this is I'm on my way up. Well that that's 1:17:43.960 --> 1:17:47.320 another thing is that the secrets in these studies are 1:17:47.360 --> 1:17:50.040 almost always just assumed to be negative. I mean in 1:17:50.080 --> 1:17:53.120 those few cases. And I think that's been our discussion 1:17:53.160 --> 1:17:55.960 so far as that most secrets do have negative connotations. 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:58.639 But in those cases where you're keeping some positive secret, 1:17:58.960 --> 1:18:01.760 would that have the same kind of effect? Man, would 1:18:01.760 --> 1:18:04.519 that also make you feel weighed down? Like he like 1:18:04.640 --> 1:18:07.400 your secret is you were a part of the surprise committee. 1:18:07.400 --> 1:18:10.719 You're a part of this the surprise birthday party committee. 1:18:10.760 --> 1:18:15.120 Like that's it's just full of fun. Christian with pens, Yeah, yeah, 1:18:15.160 --> 1:18:17.080 he loves pens and these I didn't mention that these 1:18:17.120 --> 1:18:19.479 were all you know that each one's themed after his 1:18:19.600 --> 1:18:22.439 favorite uh, you know, comic book character. So he's gonna 1:18:22.479 --> 1:18:27.280 love him. Okay, is there like a pin man? That's 1:18:27.320 --> 1:18:31.080 the brand pin Man pens Yes, okay, well, anyway, one 1:18:31.080 --> 1:18:33.479 more thing about that study that they also said that 1:18:33.520 --> 1:18:36.799 the effect seemed to be mediated by the quote judged 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:40.559 effort to keep a secret. So people subjectively report how 1:18:40.640 --> 1:18:45.240 much difficulty they're having keeping a secret, how much it takes. Uh. 1:18:45.320 --> 1:18:48.600 And so that may be a literal adaptation for resource conservation, 1:18:48.680 --> 1:18:52.639 because you're saying it's it's taking effort. Okay, so where 1:18:52.640 --> 1:18:56.080 are we now? I mean, this is frustrating because, as 1:18:56.320 --> 1:18:58.920 is often the case I'm sure you've experienced before, Robert, 1:18:58.920 --> 1:19:02.040 when you get into research, is especially in social psychology, 1:19:02.080 --> 1:19:05.839 that there are these these results that are just messy 1:19:05.960 --> 1:19:09.320 and all over the place, and I feel like methodologies 1:19:09.360 --> 1:19:12.120 are not always unified. You always feel like I wish 1:19:12.120 --> 1:19:17.240 people were asking the same question instead of related questions. Yeah. Well, 1:19:17.240 --> 1:19:20.400 it just it comes back again to just the changing 1:19:20.479 --> 1:19:22.360 nature of the secret and you cannot just put a 1:19:22.360 --> 1:19:25.280 secret in a Petri dish and and and use it 1:19:25.320 --> 1:19:28.439 in your experiment. Yeah. And you see that demonstrated time 1:19:28.439 --> 1:19:31.040 and time again with these results. And that actually is 1:19:31.080 --> 1:19:33.599 one of the things that feeds into the last paper 1:19:33.640 --> 1:19:35.920 I want to talk about, which is more work from 1:19:35.920 --> 1:19:39.960 Michael Slapian with Jen shock Chun and Miliam Mason in 1:19:40.080 --> 1:19:42.439 the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. I think this 1:19:42.520 --> 1:19:46.000 is just coming out called the Experience of Secrecy, And 1:19:46.080 --> 1:19:49.919 so this isn't following specifically on the burdensomeness of secrecy, 1:19:49.960 --> 1:19:52.320 whether there's anything to that or not. We can leave 1:19:52.360 --> 1:19:54.800 that up in the air for now. Yeah. This this 1:19:54.880 --> 1:19:58.519 is more this team trying to say, Okay, what is 1:19:58.640 --> 1:20:02.160 secrecy really? We need a new redefined theory of what 1:20:02.240 --> 1:20:05.240 secrecy is if we're going to study it. And so 1:20:05.320 --> 1:20:07.920 they start by saying, you know, attempts to describe secrecy 1:20:08.080 --> 1:20:12.320 are hampered by some problems. Why hasn't there been all 1:20:12.360 --> 1:20:15.040 that much research on secrecy? Well, one of the things 1:20:15.160 --> 1:20:18.639 is it's hard to study. By definition, secrets are things 1:20:18.680 --> 1:20:21.720 that people try to hide. So if you want to 1:20:21.760 --> 1:20:24.880 go with real secrets that people hold that are about 1:20:24.920 --> 1:20:29.200 their lives, it's difficult to reliably coax those secrets out 1:20:29.560 --> 1:20:33.680 in an experimental framework and manipulate them. You always wonder like, 1:20:33.680 --> 1:20:38.120 are people really being honest? Uh? And are people and 1:20:38.120 --> 1:20:40.400 and different secrets are going to have different weight to 1:20:40.439 --> 1:20:44.840 people write like it's hard to manipulate the secret variable yeah, 1:20:45.560 --> 1:20:47.360 it's hard to You probably are not having a lot 1:20:47.360 --> 1:20:50.240 of bring your own secret experiments here. You know you're 1:20:50.240 --> 1:20:52.160 going to provide something. It's going to basically come back 1:20:52.160 --> 1:20:54.840 to the kindergarten scenario where there's a puppet with a 1:20:54.840 --> 1:20:57.559 book of secrets, and this is a stand for secrets. Yes, 1:20:57.640 --> 1:20:59.759 that's what a lot of the research does, is provides 1:20:59.800 --> 1:21:02.439 you secret. But when you're provided with a secret in 1:21:02.479 --> 1:21:05.120 a research environment, the secrets trivial. I mean, it just 1:21:05.160 --> 1:21:07.360 doesn't really mean anything to you. So you're probably not 1:21:07.400 --> 1:21:09.760 going to treat it like you would a secret that's 1:21:09.800 --> 1:21:13.040 relevant to your personal life. And if it's relevant to 1:21:13.080 --> 1:21:16.240 your personal life, you might ask people, do you have 1:21:16.280 --> 1:21:18.599 a secret? You know, for the purpose of an experiment, 1:21:18.640 --> 1:21:21.000 think about that secret now, do X, Y and Z. 1:21:21.720 --> 1:21:24.519 One person might be thinking about I cheated on my spouse, 1:21:24.600 --> 1:21:27.840 and the other person might be thinking about I secretly 1:21:28.000 --> 1:21:30.439 want to write a comic book or something, you know 1:21:30.479 --> 1:21:33.360 what I mean. They're just not really equivalent. And if 1:21:33.360 --> 1:21:36.400 you were somehow able to draw in someone's actual secrets 1:21:36.400 --> 1:21:38.599 into the experiment, it ceases to be a scientific experiment. 1:21:38.600 --> 1:21:42.400 It becomes like a like a jigsaw killer s right, 1:21:42.680 --> 1:21:45.200 like that could basically be an entire horror movie, right there, 1:21:45.280 --> 1:21:49.120 someone experimenting on people and using their real dark secrets 1:21:49.160 --> 1:21:51.920 to their advantage. Right. So, so there's all this difficulty 1:21:52.000 --> 1:21:56.360 in this research area. Secrets are incredibly important psychological phenomenon. 1:21:56.439 --> 1:21:58.920 I think it totally matters to study them, but they're 1:21:58.960 --> 1:22:02.320 just hard to study to you rigorously. And another thing 1:22:02.520 --> 1:22:04.639 the author's point out is they think prior research has 1:22:04.680 --> 1:22:09.400 defined secrecy too narrowly. Uh So they make this point, 1:22:09.400 --> 1:22:11.280 and I think this gets into something we've actually been 1:22:11.320 --> 1:22:13.760 talking about throughout the episode. Now, they say, you know, 1:22:13.840 --> 1:22:18.120 previous research is focused almost entirely on secrecy as deliberate 1:22:18.439 --> 1:22:24.760 interpersonal concealment, preventing other people from finding out something, either 1:22:24.840 --> 1:22:28.840 omitting information or actively deceiving in order to hide a 1:22:28.840 --> 1:22:32.559 piece of knowledge from another person or persons. And the 1:22:32.600 --> 1:22:35.839 authors here propose a model of secrecy that is instead 1:22:36.080 --> 1:22:40.080 intra personal. While the ultimate goal of secrecy is to 1:22:40.200 --> 1:22:45.040 prevent other people from knowing something, the primary experience of secrecy, 1:22:45.160 --> 1:22:49.480 what it's like to have a secret, is mostly intra personal. 1:22:49.600 --> 1:22:54.439 It's inside. Uh it's again ala Lane and Wagner. I 1:22:54.479 --> 1:22:57.960 think we mentioned this earlier secrecy is something you can 1:22:58.000 --> 1:23:01.160 do alone in a room. It's just you rolling the 1:23:01.200 --> 1:23:03.800 secret back and forth in your head. Uh, you know, 1:23:04.720 --> 1:23:07.720 contemplating the contents of the secret. But also you know, 1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:10.280 what are they going to be effects if you share 1:23:10.280 --> 1:23:14.800 the secret with someone else, either intentionally or unintentionally, right, 1:23:14.960 --> 1:23:18.840 or thinking about the contents of the secret itself, not 1:23:18.920 --> 1:23:22.120 even just like the disclosures, like you might be obsessing 1:23:22.120 --> 1:23:25.719 over whatever it is that's bringing you trouble, how people 1:23:25.760 --> 1:23:28.720 would react. I mean, yeah, there's so much to roll 1:23:28.880 --> 1:23:31.880 through in your brain. And so the authors here try 1:23:31.920 --> 1:23:36.519 to redefine secrecy not as the act of concealment from others, 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:40.320 but is the state of mind the intention to conceal 1:23:40.439 --> 1:23:43.920 information from others. So, and another thing they point out 1:23:43.960 --> 1:23:47.640 is that not every act of inhibition and conversation is secrecy. 1:23:47.720 --> 1:23:50.000 I think this is a very good point. Actually, there 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:53.760 are hundreds of ways that you practice inhibition and keep 1:23:53.840 --> 1:23:58.120 yourself from saying certain kinds of things during interaction with others. 1:23:58.160 --> 1:24:01.160 But most of these don't have to with keeping specific 1:24:01.240 --> 1:24:04.240 personal information a secret, right. Most of them have to 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:08.920 do with something like manners or appropriateness. You're not trying 1:24:08.960 --> 1:24:11.880 to prevent people from finding something out. You're just trying 1:24:11.960 --> 1:24:16.559 not to say something that would be not appropriate to say. Yeah, 1:24:16.640 --> 1:24:18.599 And to come back to what we're talking earlier about 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:20.360 four or five and six year olds like you see 1:24:20.400 --> 1:24:24.840 all that coming online as well, the gradual realization that 1:24:24.840 --> 1:24:28.680 that not everything is that is appropriate, uh, you know, 1:24:28.760 --> 1:24:31.559 content for discussion. You know, you can't share every detail 1:24:31.680 --> 1:24:35.599 of your your latest bathroom break just because it happened, 1:24:35.640 --> 1:24:38.920 and you're that kind of like free sharing soul, right. 1:24:39.600 --> 1:24:42.080 So yeah, So if it's possible that there's a personal 1:24:42.160 --> 1:24:45.800 fact about you that you wouldn't want other people to know, 1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:50.600 and yet it never comes up in conversation and nobody 1:24:50.680 --> 1:24:54.080 ever asks you about it. If that's the case, is 1:24:54.120 --> 1:24:56.840 it a secret, Well, I'd still say yes, even if 1:24:56.840 --> 1:25:00.280 there's never any occasion where you have to act to 1:25:00.360 --> 1:25:03.760 conceal it. It's just because you don't want people to 1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:06.479 know that it is a secret, I would agree with that, yes. 1:25:06.600 --> 1:25:09.040 So yeah, in that case, it seems like secrecy is 1:25:09.080 --> 1:25:12.519 defined primarily by the intent of the concealer, not by 1:25:12.560 --> 1:25:16.679 the behavior of the concealer. I mean, for instance, your 1:25:17.080 --> 1:25:21.559 email password or your bank account information is essentially a secret, 1:25:22.360 --> 1:25:24.920 but I don't think it necessarily. I mean, it might 1:25:24.960 --> 1:25:27.680 bring a certain amount of physical or mental anguish to 1:25:27.760 --> 1:25:30.479 remember those passwords, but for the most part, you're not 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:34.000 sitting around like anguishing over this secret keeping that's taking 1:25:34.040 --> 1:25:37.559 place regarding your Gmail password. That's a good point. I mean, 1:25:37.640 --> 1:25:40.320 if secrets do, if they are some kind of burden, 1:25:40.439 --> 1:25:42.479 or if they do have some kind of effect on us, 1:25:42.800 --> 1:25:45.120 why does it seem to be that these these studies 1:25:45.160 --> 1:25:49.080 are only focused on the sort of negative affect of 1:25:49.439 --> 1:25:53.240 facts about ourselves as opposed to just like secret information 1:25:53.280 --> 1:25:57.120 that has kept confidential for totally utilitarian reasons. Yeah, it's 1:25:57.120 --> 1:25:59.400 like most of the secrets tend to be story shaped 1:25:59.479 --> 1:26:03.800 secrets as opposed to just coded secrets or just informational secrets. Right. 1:26:03.880 --> 1:26:05.640 That's a really good point. I mean, I wonder what 1:26:05.760 --> 1:26:09.160 the difference is psychologically, How does your body react differently 1:26:09.200 --> 1:26:11.960 to them, if at all? Um So, Yeah, but we 1:26:12.040 --> 1:26:14.519 spend a lot of time alone with our secrets, and 1:26:14.720 --> 1:26:18.080 they can surface whenever the mind wanders, and of course 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:21.840 we probably all know from experience that they often do. Right, 1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:24.400 You've I'm sure you've had this experience, Robert. You're alone, 1:26:24.439 --> 1:26:26.639 You're sitting in traffic or something like that. And if 1:26:26.720 --> 1:26:29.160 you have any secrets, they tend to just pop into 1:26:29.200 --> 1:26:32.960 your head uninvited. And this can happen a whole lot. 1:26:33.080 --> 1:26:36.479 I wanna cite just one study by a cane at 1:26:36.520 --> 1:26:40.519 All from two thousand seven in psychological Science where they 1:26:40.520 --> 1:26:44.720 were attempting to judge how often people's minds wandered off 1:26:44.760 --> 1:26:46.680 of whatever they were doing in daily life. And they 1:26:46.760 --> 1:26:49.559 use this digital assistant to prompt people throughout the day 1:26:49.840 --> 1:26:51.960 to see what was on their mind. And they found 1:26:51.960 --> 1:26:55.040 that people reported their minds were wandering almost about a 1:26:55.160 --> 1:26:58.280 third of the time, about thirty percent of the time. 1:26:59.040 --> 1:27:01.760 Uh So, most to the time, they reported that their 1:27:01.760 --> 1:27:04.599 minds were wandering to mundane day to day thoughts. But 1:27:05.280 --> 1:27:08.120 the contents of mind wandering vary from person to person. 1:27:08.240 --> 1:27:12.839 Sometimes they were wandering to plan, sometimes they're wondering, wandering 1:27:12.880 --> 1:27:18.679 to worries, and secrets are among these worries. So every 1:27:18.680 --> 1:27:21.200 time your mind wanders to a secret, you get to 1:27:21.200 --> 1:27:24.320 be reminded of your own lack of honesty, your own 1:27:24.400 --> 1:27:28.240 lack of authenticity, which can be very undermining to your 1:27:28.280 --> 1:27:31.639 sense of self worth. Right, Yeah, and also an incomplete task. 1:27:31.720 --> 1:27:35.080 Remember that as well, exactly right. So back to this paper. 1:27:35.200 --> 1:27:39.160 Based on the hypothesis of secrecy being primarily intra personal, 1:27:39.439 --> 1:27:43.160 you know, inside you instead of between you and other people, 1:27:43.560 --> 1:27:47.120 they make two predictions. Uh, they say, quote, first, people 1:27:47.200 --> 1:27:51.600 catch themselves mind wandering to secrets outside of relevant concealment 1:27:51.680 --> 1:27:56.320 settings more frequently than they encounter social situations that necessitate 1:27:56.400 --> 1:28:00.439 active concealment of secrets. So they're saying, bay stun their 1:28:00.479 --> 1:28:02.960 new model, we should expect to find that people think 1:28:03.000 --> 1:28:07.160 about their secrets way more than they actually have occasion 1:28:07.360 --> 1:28:10.960 to prevent people from finding out about them. Right. And 1:28:11.000 --> 1:28:13.880 then the second thing is quote the frequency with which 1:28:13.920 --> 1:28:17.320 people mind wander to their secrets predicts lower well being 1:28:17.520 --> 1:28:21.840 independent of the frequency with which they actively conceal their secrets. 1:28:21.880 --> 1:28:25.720 So here they're predicting, the more your mind just intrusively 1:28:26.320 --> 1:28:30.840 features secrets content, the more secrets just pop into your head, 1:28:31.280 --> 1:28:34.360 the lower your well being is going to be. Um. 1:28:34.479 --> 1:28:38.000 So this paper had ten studies throughout it, too many 1:28:38.000 --> 1:28:42.160 details to go into here, just a few highlights, and 1:28:42.200 --> 1:28:45.639 they came up with thirty eight categories of secrets after 1:28:45.680 --> 1:28:48.280 a little pilot study, and they would ask, you know, 1:28:48.360 --> 1:28:50.799 have you done this is it a secret? The categories 1:28:50.800 --> 1:28:57.760 of secrets would be things like uh, emotional infidelity, sexual infidelity, theft, uh, 1:28:57.960 --> 1:29:03.040 work cheating, things like that uh And across the multiple samples, consistently, 1:29:03.040 --> 1:29:06.000 more than nine pc of people admitted to having at 1:29:06.080 --> 1:29:08.400 least one secret. So it seems like when you really 1:29:08.520 --> 1:29:11.559 drill down and give people categories to choose from, most 1:29:11.600 --> 1:29:14.400 people are keeping at least one secret, and lots of 1:29:14.400 --> 1:29:17.760 people are keeping multiple secrets. The most common types of 1:29:17.760 --> 1:29:20.920 secrets people had that they reported never having shared with 1:29:20.960 --> 1:29:29.080 anyone were sexual behavior, lies, romantic desires, and extra relational thoughts. 1:29:30.600 --> 1:29:35.040 No big surprises are right, Um? So people did generally 1:29:35.120 --> 1:29:38.000 mind wander to secrets they found much more than they 1:29:38.040 --> 1:29:41.320 actively concealed them and interactions. And this was true for 1:29:41.400 --> 1:29:44.560 all kinds of secrets except for one, which was surprises, 1:29:45.520 --> 1:29:47.879 which is kind of sweet. People spend more time actively 1:29:47.920 --> 1:29:51.360 concealing surprises than than letting their mind wander to them. 1:29:51.680 --> 1:29:54.280 Well that's yeah, Well that that makes sense too, because 1:29:54.280 --> 1:29:56.000 again those are like those are the positive as are 1:29:56.000 --> 1:29:59.080 the bright spots in the secret keeping universe. Right, So, 1:29:59.120 --> 1:30:02.160 according to self reports, the more people mind wandered to 1:30:02.200 --> 1:30:05.160 their secrets, the more they claim their secret harmed their 1:30:05.200 --> 1:30:07.920 well being, and this was true for mind wandering, but 1:30:08.120 --> 1:30:11.840 not for active concealment. So the general findings here where 1:30:11.920 --> 1:30:16.000 that having a secret leads to active concealment and mind 1:30:16.040 --> 1:30:18.919 wandering of the subject to the secret, but mind wandering 1:30:18.960 --> 1:30:22.479 to the secret happens much more often, and mind wandering 1:30:22.520 --> 1:30:25.680 to the secret appears to have a negative effect on 1:30:25.800 --> 1:30:29.720 well being. Now I had a big question about this. Uh, 1:30:29.760 --> 1:30:31.800 I guess we're we're going to wrap up in a 1:30:31.840 --> 1:30:35.320 minute here, But I'm wondering in these mind wandering events, 1:30:35.360 --> 1:30:38.240 what's the phenomenology there? Because there you're just talking about 1:30:38.280 --> 1:30:42.240 the mind wandering to a subject. When people's mind wanders 1:30:42.280 --> 1:30:45.400 to a secret, what are they generally thinking of? Are 1:30:45.439 --> 1:30:48.760 they thinking about the subject of their secret, like the 1:30:48.800 --> 1:30:52.040 thing it is they're they're keeping secret, or they thinking 1:30:52.080 --> 1:30:55.520 about how the secret would be perceived if it were discovered, 1:30:56.000 --> 1:30:58.200 or are they thinking about how to keep it from 1:30:58.240 --> 1:31:01.120 being discovered? Like what is the prime merry feeling of 1:31:01.200 --> 1:31:04.160 your mind wandering to a secret? I mean, I imagine 1:31:04.200 --> 1:31:05.960 a lot of it's tied up in you know, the 1:31:06.240 --> 1:31:09.439 nature of the default mode network, and that we're sort 1:31:09.479 --> 1:31:13.800 of continually worrying about the past and the future. So 1:31:14.479 --> 1:31:17.519 it's going to basically color like, what does this say 1:31:17.560 --> 1:31:20.200 about who I am in the past or the future, 1:31:20.439 --> 1:31:23.519 the keeping of this secret or the nature of the secret? 1:31:23.680 --> 1:31:25.880 Right that would be my read on it. Yeah, I 1:31:25.880 --> 1:31:27.559 think that's a really good read. And the who I 1:31:27.600 --> 1:31:30.439 am is a big factor because the the So in 1:31:30.479 --> 1:31:33.400 the study I just talked about, the authors, they're presenting 1:31:33.560 --> 1:31:38.640 an authenticity model of secrecy that is interesting to me 1:31:38.720 --> 1:31:43.400 because it's basing the whatever potential harmful effects of secrecy 1:31:43.439 --> 1:31:46.840 there are, they say are are maybe largely rooted in 1:31:47.160 --> 1:31:51.599 not necessarily like a spending cognitive resources thinking about the secret, 1:31:51.920 --> 1:31:55.479 but in the secret undermining our sense of authenticity and 1:31:55.520 --> 1:31:59.160 self worth, Like it hurts our self esteem to think 1:31:59.160 --> 1:32:01.920 about the fact that we have to keep things secret. 1:32:02.240 --> 1:32:04.360 So in the study, like I said, they define secrecy 1:32:04.439 --> 1:32:07.280 not as the act of concealing information from others, but 1:32:07.360 --> 1:32:10.280 the desire to conceal information from others. And I wonder 1:32:10.320 --> 1:32:13.439 if you could take that a step farther insofar as 1:32:13.520 --> 1:32:16.960 that information relates to facts about yourself, could you go 1:32:17.080 --> 1:32:21.200 even more basic and say that secrecy is an intentional 1:32:21.320 --> 1:32:27.800 mismatch between your public and private self. Huh yeah, I 1:32:27.800 --> 1:32:30.519 think you could, you know, and that that actually naturally 1:32:30.520 --> 1:32:33.000 plays in within the final example I want to bring 1:32:33.080 --> 1:32:35.360 up for our podcast episode here. Oh yeah, well what 1:32:35.479 --> 1:32:38.160 is that? That's we're talking about public and private itself? 1:32:38.200 --> 1:32:42.360 What is more public and privateself than the clothed self 1:32:42.400 --> 1:32:45.200 and then nakedself? The clothes the version of you that 1:32:45.280 --> 1:32:47.080 is literally wearing clothes and the version of you that 1:32:47.200 --> 1:32:49.320 is literally naked. Well, I guess if you're never nude, 1:32:49.360 --> 1:32:53.400 even the privateself isn't always clothed. Well, that's that's true. 1:32:53.400 --> 1:32:56.160 The never nudes of arrested development that they put an 1:32:56.200 --> 1:32:59.360 additional spin on this. I'm not sure that Georgio Agambin 1:32:59.479 --> 1:33:02.560 actually thought about this, but he is, Okay, he is. 1:33:02.800 --> 1:33:07.000 He is an Italian philosopher of the century. He was 1:33:07.000 --> 1:33:10.080 born in two so he's still with us, and he's 1:33:10.120 --> 1:33:13.920 written a good bit on this idea of nudity as 1:33:13.960 --> 1:33:18.160 a secret, so he uh, it's really really fascinating stuff. 1:33:18.160 --> 1:33:21.120 He gets into it at you know, far greater philosophic 1:33:21.200 --> 1:33:23.599 depth than we have time to discuss here. But for instance, 1:33:23.600 --> 1:33:25.880 he points to the myth of Adam and Eve is 1:33:25.920 --> 1:33:28.880 the birth of shame and the beginning of ethics. Uh 1:33:28.920 --> 1:33:32.000 He says, quote, if nudity results in us being ashamed, 1:33:32.000 --> 1:33:34.719 it is because we cannot hide that which we would 1:33:34.720 --> 1:33:38.160 prefer to hide from the glance of the eye, because 1:33:38.400 --> 1:33:42.720 the unrestrainable impulse of escaping from oneself is encountered by 1:33:42.720 --> 1:33:46.959 an equal certain impossibility of evasion. Now, can you translate 1:33:47.000 --> 1:33:49.760 that for me again? He goes, He goes pretty deep 1:33:49.760 --> 1:33:52.200 into it. He talks about nudity and clothing as metaphors 1:33:52.240 --> 1:33:55.080 for the original state of humanity and divine grace. But 1:33:55.840 --> 1:33:59.840 his basic argument for nudity here or denudation is that 1:34:00.439 --> 1:34:06.040 uh quote forms of human engagement can become substantively democratic 1:34:06.120 --> 1:34:11.479 it enacted through an unconcealed disclosedness. So he's saying that, 1:34:11.520 --> 1:34:15.200 you know, nudity is about like it's like basically boils 1:34:15.200 --> 1:34:18.280 down to you know, letting the absence of secrets be seen. 1:34:18.720 --> 1:34:22.519 So like nudity is the ultimate honesty. Yeah, in in 1:34:22.520 --> 1:34:24.240 a sense it is. If you're trying to get to 1:34:24.360 --> 1:34:30.840 ultimate disclosure, ultimate honesty, ultimate equality of information, you should 1:34:30.920 --> 1:34:33.400 not only tell all your secrets and never tell lies, 1:34:33.439 --> 1:34:35.120 but you should take your clothes off. That's what we 1:34:35.160 --> 1:34:37.360 do with the voider plates, right, we sent off images 1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:39.800 of naked human beings to say and and that was 1:34:39.880 --> 1:34:43.280 of course controversial. Uh, but we were saying, this is 1:34:43.320 --> 1:34:47.000 what human beings are, these naked ape creatures. But of 1:34:47.040 --> 1:34:50.960 course that's a little dishonest because look around you, you know, 1:34:51.040 --> 1:34:53.439 and maybe you're a nudist colony listening to this, but 1:34:53.880 --> 1:34:57.559 or you're in a traditional sauna. But by and large 1:34:57.840 --> 1:34:59.960 it's probably is not the case. People were probably wearing 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:03.559 clothes around you. And that's kind of a Gammon's argument here. 1:35:03.600 --> 1:35:07.720 He says humanity for humanity, nudity has become quote unevent 1:35:08.200 --> 1:35:11.200 not a state. In the same way you could basically 1:35:11.200 --> 1:35:14.559 say that, like secrets have become the state. You know, 1:35:14.800 --> 1:35:17.160 we could we possibly expend this off and say that 1:35:17.360 --> 1:35:19.880 the keeping and trade of secrets has become the state 1:35:19.920 --> 1:35:24.440 of humanity and the so these secrets are the skins 1:35:24.479 --> 1:35:26.960 that we have done as we march eternally out of 1:35:27.120 --> 1:35:29.559 the garden of Eden. Wow. Well, I would not have 1:35:29.640 --> 1:35:32.679 predicted that we were going to end up with nudity Roberts, 1:35:32.720 --> 1:35:38.439 but I think that's actually highly relevant. Yeah, it's um, 1:35:38.479 --> 1:35:43.560 I mean, clothing is sort of the it's the embodiment 1:35:43.680 --> 1:35:46.679 of one of the more benign secrets, right, because you're 1:35:46.720 --> 1:35:51.160 when you when you wear clothes, you're not really betraying anyone, right, 1:35:51.240 --> 1:35:55.200 You're not like covering up something horrible. I don't know, 1:35:55.240 --> 1:35:58.000 maybe some of us are. You're you're not covering up 1:35:58.000 --> 1:36:01.639 a crime or something like that, something people should know about. 1:36:02.960 --> 1:36:05.520 But I can see what he's saying that the enclothed 1:36:05.640 --> 1:36:09.640 state is naturally an inauthentic state. I guess yeah. And 1:36:09.680 --> 1:36:12.960 it has become the norm, so that the actual like 1:36:13.120 --> 1:36:17.559 physical honesty and openness has become an event. It has 1:36:17.600 --> 1:36:21.680 become like these rare occurrences in the timeline of human existence. 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:23.840 So what are people more likely to give up their 1:36:23.880 --> 1:36:27.479 secrets or their clothing? Oh, that's a great question. That's 1:36:27.520 --> 1:36:29.360 kind of kind of comes down to like a you know, 1:36:29.400 --> 1:36:32.000 a jigsaw kind of scenario. Give up your clothing and 1:36:32.040 --> 1:36:35.120 your secrets, so you're gonna you're gonna walk down the street. 1:36:36.000 --> 1:36:38.320 There's a whole other thing too. He goes crazy on 1:36:38.400 --> 1:36:41.639 the Emperor's new clothing and all the connotations there. But yeah, 1:36:41.680 --> 1:36:43.360 would you get do you give up your your clothing 1:36:43.400 --> 1:36:45.960 or your secret? I don't know. I would imagine if 1:36:46.000 --> 1:36:48.439 the secret is weighty enough, you'd probably give up the clothing. 1:36:49.439 --> 1:36:52.000 Man Horrobert, this has been an interesting discussion, but I'm 1:36:52.040 --> 1:36:54.639 frustrated by the science in this one. This is one 1:36:54.680 --> 1:36:57.000 where I mean, this has happened before, especially when we 1:36:57.040 --> 1:36:59.840 get into social psychology. I feel like it happens all 1:36:59.840 --> 1:37:04.599 the time that they're The literature is replete with studies 1:37:04.640 --> 1:37:07.280 that I'm kind of skeptical of the reported results, and 1:37:07.320 --> 1:37:10.640 then studies that fail to replicate, and then studies that 1:37:10.720 --> 1:37:14.559 get conflicting results or that aren't exactly asking the same 1:37:14.680 --> 1:37:18.200 question but being applied to each other. I don't know. 1:37:18.240 --> 1:37:21.000 It's one of those where what's there seems interesting, but 1:37:21.040 --> 1:37:24.879 I don't know what's true or what to make of it. Well, welcome, 1:37:24.920 --> 1:37:28.639 welcome to the modern age. That's that's our in clothed age. 1:37:29.360 --> 1:37:31.400 But you know the great thing about this topic is 1:37:31.439 --> 1:37:34.400 that everybody is going to have some insight for this. 1:37:34.680 --> 1:37:38.160 People are gonna have thoughts on, uh, your children and 1:37:38.160 --> 1:37:40.240 their ability to keep secrets or not keep secrets. The 1:37:40.240 --> 1:37:43.759 weight of secrets is an adult um. The nudity scenario. 1:37:43.880 --> 1:37:46.240 I would love to hear from any nudists out there, 1:37:46.320 --> 1:37:49.160 or individuals who have you know, participated in nudist events 1:37:49.160 --> 1:37:52.000 and how how that makes them feel in terms of 1:37:52.439 --> 1:37:55.720 you know, uh, you know personal psychic burdens that we've 1:37:55.760 --> 1:37:58.639 been talking about here today. Yes, seriously, you have got 1:37:58.640 --> 1:38:00.920 me wondering about this now. So like for someone with 1:38:00.960 --> 1:38:03.600 the with the new dist orientation, might you might you 1:38:03.640 --> 1:38:07.680 actually come to see shedding your clothing with the same 1:38:07.720 --> 1:38:10.519 kind of relief that a person might feel admitting a 1:38:10.600 --> 1:38:13.160 secret that they've kept for a long time. Yeah, I 1:38:13.360 --> 1:38:16.160 mean I would imagine stuff. All right, Well, hey, let 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:18.000 us know. 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