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Speaker 1: We don't want to have to step out the door

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Speaker 1: every day and just justify our choices and our non choices,

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Speaker 1: you know, but just justify our life. No one should

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Speaker 1: have to do that.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.

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Speaker 2: This podcast has been so great, so fun.

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Speaker 3: We're not ending. I'm looking back, okay.

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Speaker 2: Because I've loved talking to, you know, the actors and

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Speaker 2: the artists and the writers and the musicians about their

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Speaker 2: career arcs and their trials and their successes and their heartbreaks.

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Speaker 2: I've loved talking to Josh Gadd and Huey Lewis and

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Speaker 2: Sally Jesse Raphael and Charloia Mane the God and Jim's

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Speaker 2: v Vanderbeek and so many other people. They've lived incredible

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Speaker 2: lives and the journalist in me loves exploring that.

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Speaker 3: But really, at.

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Speaker 2: Its core, Off the Cup began and has remained a

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Speaker 2: kind of mental health podcast. We may not address mental

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Speaker 2: health health directly every episode, but I have intentionally created

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Speaker 2: a space because it was important to me where a

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Speaker 2: conversation about mental health could come up naturally.

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Speaker 3: Because again that was important to me.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to create that space because, as you know,

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Speaker 2: I've struggled with my own mental health, my journey and

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Speaker 2: struggle with anxiety.

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Speaker 3: It's why this pot exists.

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Speaker 2: And it's been just as helpful to me as I

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Speaker 2: hope it's been to others to hear people giving language

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Speaker 2: to our battles. Whether it's me talking about it, or

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Speaker 2: Mark Duplas or Brie Nestin Green or Jenny Garth.

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Speaker 3: What I always say is when you talk.

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Speaker 2: About mental health, it makes it easier to talk about

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Speaker 2: mental health, and that is so so crucial. That's the

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Speaker 2: ethos of this podcast. So the celebs are fun, we

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Speaker 2: love that. But all of that is to say that

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Speaker 2: this week's guest is truly an extension of this ethos,

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Speaker 2: where we're making it okay to talk about things that

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Speaker 2: people might be uncomfortable talking about or.

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Speaker 3: Don't know how to talk about. And I'm really really.

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Speaker 2: Excited about it because this person's talking about things we've

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Speaker 2: talked about here too, things that I've shared with you

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Speaker 2: that can feel scary or maybe even too intimate. But

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Speaker 2: not today, not today. We're going there today. Stacy Lindsay

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Speaker 2: has worked as a journalist and editor for years. She's

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Speaker 2: interviewed so many fascinating people. Fascinating women, especially like Lisa

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Speaker 2: Ling and Julianne Anderson and Aaron Brockovich and Savannah Guthrie

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Speaker 2: and Elan Hildebrand and Anna Quinlinn. I mean, it goes

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Speaker 2: on and on, and she's got a new book coming

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Speaker 2: out in May called Being Forty, The Decade of Letting

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Speaker 2: Go and Embracing who we are.

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Speaker 3: I love this topic. I'm in my forties, just at.

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Speaker 2: A birthday yesterday in fact, and so much changed for

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Speaker 2: me in this decade. There was so much up evil,

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Speaker 2: so much self doubt, so much that was disorienting and knew,

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Speaker 2: and boy was it scary at times. So let's get

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Speaker 2: into it. Stacey Lindsay, welcome to Off the Cup.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait to get into it with you.

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Speaker 4: Essie.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I am so excited and

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Speaker 1: I'm just so grateful too. And happy happy birthday. I

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Speaker 1: hope you're celebrating we're all celebrating you. I hope you're

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Speaker 1: celebrating you for the next month.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's that feels indulgent, But thank you, and

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Speaker 2: I'm really I'm really glad you're here, because, as you know,

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Speaker 2: this is a very timely topic and there's sort of

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Speaker 2: been a like a boomlet of discussion. I think a

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Speaker 2: welcome boomlet around specifically around perimenopause, just for one example,

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Speaker 2: because that's that's not the whole focus of the book,

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Speaker 2: but it's something that you talk about a lot, with

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Speaker 2: people like Halle Berry and Naomi Watts really trying to

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Speaker 2: use their massive platforms to talk about some of the

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Speaker 2: things that women have to go through at this age.

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Speaker 2: It's like we're calming out of the closet or the kitchen,

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Speaker 2: whatever metaphor you want to use to talk about the

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable topic of age.

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Speaker 3: Why is it so hard for us to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm still figuring that out myself, it is, but I

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Speaker 1: know that when we do talk about it, and when

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Speaker 1: we lean in and we sort of broach the subject,

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Speaker 1: the floodgates open. But what's fascinating too, just to touch

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Speaker 1: on perimenopause and we'll talk about all of it purely menopause.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know what it was until I started

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Speaker 1: writing this book a few years ago, and it still

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Speaker 1: confused me. And I'm so glad we're getting this information

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Speaker 1: and we're getting this awareness around it. But I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: it's this long. It differs for every woman too, but

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Speaker 1: it's this long, sort of nebulous time of things are changing,

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Speaker 1: things are getting tough, things are getting kind of cool

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Speaker 1: too in a lot of ways. It's not all doom

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Speaker 1: and gloom, but what is it? And that's the fun

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Speaker 1: thing about this conversation too, is we're starting to actually

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Speaker 1: get some clarity on these terms that we've kind of heard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah again, I was just learning in real time as

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Speaker 1: I was writing this book.

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Speaker 2: Well, that is the wild part of this. I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about this. I think about this a lot. But

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Speaker 2: you know, a couple of years ago, I was on

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Speaker 2: the phone with one of my girlfriends, she's one of

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Speaker 2: the girlfriends I have since I'm like sixteen. She brought

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Speaker 2: up some kind of change she was going through and

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, me too.

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Speaker 3: She's like, well, it's perimenopause. I'm like, shut the shut

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Speaker 3: the front door.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, why do I have to like have

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Speaker 2: a conversation with a girlfriend to figure stuff out that's

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Speaker 2: going on with my body? Why did I learn about

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Speaker 2: the cotton gin in school? But not like the biological

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Speaker 2: changes that half the planet is going to go through

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Speaker 2: at a certain time.

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Speaker 3: It's so crazy to me.

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Speaker 1: And some of the doctors I interviewed for my book,

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Speaker 1: they'll say they didn't learn about it in mid school.

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Speaker 1: Come on, they're just learning about it.

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Speaker 4: Come on.

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Speaker 1: So women have been looked at as these vessels for procreation, right,

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Speaker 1: We've been looked at to have a certain role in society,

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Speaker 1: and one of those roles was to make babies, you know,

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Speaker 1: to marry into a family fill in the blank. And

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Speaker 1: so we're just kind of starting to come up for

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Speaker 1: air and we're just starting to learn about this, and

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Speaker 1: that's why there's this incredible swell of these amazing doctors

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Speaker 1: out there talking about all of this. It's new for

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Speaker 1: them too. I mean, they've known about it, but again,

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Speaker 1: they were in med school. They weren't taught about this.

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Speaker 1: They were taught about men's bodies. They were taught about

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Speaker 1: in clinical trials too. Wasn't until the early nineties that

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Speaker 1: it was mandated that women were included in clinical trials,

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Speaker 1: so that we have when it comes about to our wellness,

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Speaker 1: our health, the default has been how does it impact

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Speaker 1: a man? And then we're kind of second, it's wild, and.

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Speaker 2: We're fury different. We don't even have the same stuff

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Speaker 2: that makes no sense.

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Speaker 1: Every single way we're different too.

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Speaker 3: That blows my mind.

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Speaker 2: But actually that's reassuring, like I haven't just been missing

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Speaker 2: no or ignoring this, Like it really hasn't just been

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Speaker 2: a thing until recently.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why I was so interested

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Speaker 1: in this is because I didn't have the vocabulary for

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Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that I was experiencing. And

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Speaker 1: I'm curious of you. I'm imagining you experienced that as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: something I knew was different. And when I'm saying this

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Speaker 1: was kind of late thirties. Then when I entered the

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Speaker 1: decade of my forties, I thought, okay, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: talking about the Oh my god, I'm turning forty. I

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Speaker 1: had some angst around it. It's different for all of us,

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Speaker 1: but honestly, it was just another day. I didn't have

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Speaker 1: a big party. It was just another day. But it

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Speaker 1: was when I was in my forties, even just a

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Speaker 1: few months in, I started really looking at this and

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Speaker 1: I thought, something is feeling different. My body feels different.

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Speaker 1: Something about my mind where I'm allocating my energy feels different.

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Speaker 1: That's shifting too so much, and I wanted to look

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Speaker 1: at this, but it was a lack of vocabulary, and

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Speaker 1: I was hearing the term midlife, but I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I want something more specific. What is it about the

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Speaker 1: decade of our forties? So there's something right now that

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Speaker 1: is different and I wanted to really unpack that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you did too, And I completely understand

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Speaker 2: that impetus. When I was in the middle of my

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Speaker 2: sort of nervous breakdown and dealing with my anxiety struggle,

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Speaker 2: I didn't have language to describe what was happening to me.

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Speaker 2: I could get there with a therapist who knew the

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Speaker 2: questions to ask, and you know, we got there. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like anxiety is very misunderstood in the way

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Speaker 2: that this time of a woman's life is misunderstood, and

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Speaker 2: we just don't have a way to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: which is also why I, you know, started working on

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Speaker 2: a book about it, to give it that language, so

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Speaker 2: that like we could, we could have common stories to

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Speaker 2: share and light bulbs that go off and aha moments.

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Speaker 2: You can't do that if you're all kind of talking

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Speaker 2: in the shadows or just like with a girlfriend on

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Speaker 2: the phone.

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Speaker 1: Right and when we're talking about anxiety specifically too, And

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Speaker 1: I love that you share about this se because there's

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Speaker 1: still this shame in stigma around Yeah, yep, I've experienced

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Speaker 1: it myself. I feel anxious still day to day. I

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Speaker 1: have to work on it, but I have gone through

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Speaker 1: major dark times and I talk about a lot of

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Speaker 1: it in the book. But there's a link there too,

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Speaker 1: specifically for when we're in our forties as well, that

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Speaker 1: correlates to the chemical changes in our bodies, the fluctuations

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Speaker 1: of her hormones. That's going to exacerbate a lot of

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Speaker 1: the stuff that we're feeling as well.

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Speaker 3: Totally.

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Speaker 1: So it's just like accumulation.

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Speaker 3: It's a perfect storm of sense.

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Speaker 1: It's a perfect yeah, freaking storm.

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Speaker 2: First, you know, I wanted to know a little bit

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Speaker 2: more about you and your journey to Hear and why

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Speaker 2: you're writing this book.

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Speaker 3: So tell me a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 2: I always like to ask what kind of kid were you?

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Speaker 1: You know, I was kind of to use kind of

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Speaker 1: cliche terms, but I was super super curious. I think

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Speaker 1: for our line of work to you kind of know

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Speaker 1: early on you're asking questions, and that's what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: I was doing the school newspaper, and then in college

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Speaker 1: I was thinking okay, something just I didn't really ever

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Speaker 1: fit in that, I didn't really go with the status

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Speaker 1: quo all of those things. But yeah, So I grew

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Speaker 1: up south of Boston and went to undergrad in Boston

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Speaker 1: at BU and then I transferred to Emerson actually got

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Speaker 1: my undergrad degree in film, which was a change because

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Speaker 1: I always wanted to be a journalist and then I

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Speaker 1: had I mean, I had a great career working in

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Speaker 1: film for a short while. I moved to New York

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Speaker 1: for mac only A Pictures, but it was still this

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Speaker 1: really tiny company. And then I got this incredible opportunity.

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Speaker 1: I see. It's so funny because it still it literally

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Speaker 1: fell in my lap where the late James Kahn was

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Speaker 1: looking for an assistant. So James conn for people who

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Speaker 1: are listening the Godfather and you know, one of the

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Speaker 1: great Yeah, so I moved to LA It worked for

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Speaker 1: him for several years, and he was I'm one of

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Speaker 1: the lucky ones too, because he was one of the

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Speaker 1: great ones. He became a dad. He was so deeply respectful.

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Speaker 1: He taught me so much about life, and I got

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Speaker 1: to travel the world with him. But I was still

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Speaker 1: asking all these questions I wanted to be a journalist,

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Speaker 1: and as this happens, sometimes you have a moment of

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Speaker 1: clarity when like something drastic happens in your life. My

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Speaker 1: father died really suddenly, and it was honestly. I went

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Speaker 1: back to Massachusetts. I was sitting next to him as

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Speaker 1: he was dying. He was in a coma in the hospital,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, I got to go back to school

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Speaker 1: for journalism. I want to do this, so kind of

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Speaker 1: shortening this long story. But then went back to grad

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Speaker 1: school study journalism and then hit the ground running from there.

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Speaker 1: I was a local reporter. And yeah, rest is kind

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Speaker 1: of history.

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Speaker 2: You know, the journalism bug is. It's interesting because if

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Speaker 2: you have it, you don't you don't you don't get.

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Speaker 3: Rid of it.

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Speaker 2: You ideally you find a way to use it right,

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Speaker 2: to do it, either as a journalist or in some

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Speaker 2: way asking the questions, following the stories in some kind

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Speaker 2: of capacity. But you don't get to totally ignore it.

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Speaker 2: It's relentless, it is. I mean, I you know, I

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Speaker 2: when I got bitten by it in college, there was

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Speaker 2: nothing else I was going to do nothing.

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Speaker 3: I was asked to do reality shows.

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Speaker 2: I was asked to do all kinds of things that

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Speaker 2: I'm sure would have been fun. But it's all I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do, and it's still all I know how

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Speaker 2: to do and all I want to do with life,

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Speaker 2: which we'll get to because when you get to your forties,

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Speaker 2: sometimes for women, you get to like a career crossroads

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Speaker 2: and you start asking yourself, am I happy in this

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Speaker 2: thing that had always made me happy? And suddenly isn't

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Speaker 2: making me as happy anymore? Or isn't as fulfilling anymore?

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Speaker 2: So we're gonna get that. But but I just I

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Speaker 2: just want to stick with you for a minute. So

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Speaker 2: how do you decide I'm.

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Speaker 3: Going to write this book.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to write a book about this thing that's

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Speaker 2: more important than all.

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Speaker 3: The other things I could write about.

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Speaker 2: Because you've interviewed some incredible people, You've done some incredible work.

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Speaker 2: There are issues I know that you're very passionate about

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Speaker 2: and that you've explored as a journalist really deeply.

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Speaker 3: Why this topic.

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Speaker 1: I have to give the credit to fellow journalist Maria Shriver,

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Speaker 1: who I grew up idolizing, of course, and I've learned

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Speaker 1: so much from her. And I'm a contributed senior contributor

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Speaker 1: editor to The Sunday Paper, which she produces that she founded.

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Speaker 1: It was a conversation with her really because I started

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Speaker 1: really digging into kind of a created another sort of

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Speaker 1: beat for myself, which was this kind of pro aging landscape.

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Speaker 1: I started becoming really interested in it. Always been interested

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Speaker 1: in topics that impact women and people who identify as women,

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Speaker 1: but there was something specific about aging that maybe it

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Speaker 1: was the time of my life I was going through,

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Speaker 1: but these people that were starting to really kind of

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Speaker 1: push back on these societal narratives, and I thought, ah,

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Speaker 1: I like that talking to people like a Norma Kamali

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Speaker 1: who well into it at seventies is saying I feel

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Speaker 1: better and look better and love life more than I

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Speaker 1: ever have before. Okay, what are you doing? I want

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Speaker 1: to learn more about right. So it was that in

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Speaker 1: general that started really really interesting me and I just

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Speaker 1: started kind of peeling the back the layers of that.

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Speaker 1: But then at the same time, my own life experience,

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Speaker 1: I entered this decade and as we as we talked

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Speaker 1: about I was like, Okay, something's going on here, something

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Speaker 1: is different, and again I don't have the words for it,

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Speaker 1: what is it? And I find that the forties, I

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Speaker 1: think are a massive intersection for various reasons. For one reason,

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Speaker 1: our bodies are changing, as we talked about and hopefully

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Speaker 1: we can talk about more. Society always has something to

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Speaker 1: say about forty two. It is that weird, sticky point

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Speaker 1: age where you could argue, Okay, maybe the thirties is too,

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Speaker 1: in its own way the twenties, but there's something about

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Speaker 1: forty because those damn headlines. I go, oh, so and

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Speaker 1: so on how she looks so good at forty five

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Speaker 1: on getting married after forty Oh my gosh, you're forty.

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Speaker 1: You look so good. What is it about this decade?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 1: What was that? Also coming into the picture is life

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Speaker 1: gets harder. It just does the forties. This is a time,

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Speaker 1: if God willing, we still have our guardians or parents.

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Speaker 1: They're getting older. That is massively on our minds. If

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Speaker 1: we have children, that is obviously massively on our minds.

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Speaker 1: I don't have children, but everyone in my life does.

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Speaker 1: I've God children, And it's just a reality of life. Mortgages, rent,

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Speaker 1: you know, the world we live in. Yeah, especially right

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Speaker 1: now too. I mean this disloyalty to the constitution, just

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Speaker 1: to name one thing. So there's this like intersection of

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Speaker 1: all these things. And then though there's this really cool

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Speaker 1: thing that happens that I think we lean into what

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Speaker 1: really matters. I think we do start as women, whether

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Speaker 1: we realize it or not. I think we start reallocating

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Speaker 1: our energy toward what we really want to. We start

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Speaker 1: shifting our minds to the things that we always wanted

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Speaker 1: to put our minds toward. We start we really know

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Speaker 1: ourselves too.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 1: And so that confluence of things, I thought, I want

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Speaker 1: to know about this more. And then what really led

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Speaker 1: me to this book. I started asking women about it.

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Speaker 1: And I use the term floodgates. They just opened every

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Speaker 1: time I asked a woman about something related to the forties,

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Speaker 1: growing older, beauty ideals, Oh my gosh. Yeah, we couldn't

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Speaker 1: stop talking about it. And so that led to this

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Speaker 1: book ultimately, and the forties are in anchor for the book.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, I really think this book

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Speaker 1: is just about being a woman today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and.

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Speaker 1: Everything we face.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, I get that sense as well. So I

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Speaker 2: just turned forty seven. I remember when I was approaching

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Speaker 2: my forties. I wasn't scared of getting old. I was

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Speaker 2: scared of getting irrelevant. And that's partly my bit the business.

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Speaker 2: I'm in my business has a way of sort of

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Speaker 2: sutt lyast sidelining women in their forties, And I've watched

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Speaker 2: it over and over and over again. You know, a

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Speaker 2: colleague of mine, a star journalist, or you know, she's

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Speaker 2: got a hit news show, and suddenly they're no longer

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Speaker 2: getting the plumb assignment, or they're no longer on the

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Speaker 2: big night, their show's taken away, and eventually they're just

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Speaker 2: kind of nowhere. And obviously that doesn't happen to everyone,

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Speaker 2: but I feel like a woman in her forties in

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Speaker 2: this business starts asking am I done?

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Speaker 3: Here? Is this business done with me?

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Speaker 2: And that's existentially very disorienting and alarming. And I imagine

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Speaker 2: that's not just the case in my business, right is

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Speaker 2: there something about being forty in whatever career you're in

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Speaker 2: where you start wondering am I going to be left

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Speaker 2: behind here? Or sort of the converse, do I want

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Speaker 2: to get out of this?

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Speaker 1: I think that's a shared feeling between all of us.

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Speaker 1: I really do, And of course we can only talk

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Speaker 1: about our own lived experience, but from the women I

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Speaker 1: interviewed for this book and for the women who aren't

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Speaker 1: in the book, where just anecdotally can kind of call

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Speaker 1: from their stories. Yes, I think it is the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the book. I talk about Janis Adams, who's this

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Speaker 1: prolific historian and journalist. She calls it a push out year.

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Speaker 1: She's seen it, and she's older than us, and she's

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Speaker 1: seen it for decades. That forty is for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: but it is again that year that industries are tough

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Speaker 1: on women. They start getting pushed out. And I want

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Speaker 1: to think it's changing, but it's still a reality. So

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Speaker 1: I think it no matter what industry. But if you're

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Speaker 1: in an industry where your currency, so much of it too,

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Speaker 1: is how you present to the world, you know, your looks,

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Speaker 1: your beauty, whatever you want to call it. That's you know,

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Speaker 1: that's even a bigger.

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Speaker 3: It's another layer on top of it. It's another layer.

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Speaker 1: It just is it's so tough. And then also I

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Speaker 1: think we start really paying attention to what's lighting us

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Speaker 1: up and what's not lighting us up anymore. To you,

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Speaker 1: that and career is such a fascinating conversation to have

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Speaker 1: because we do all the right things we can really do.

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Speaker 1: If we're lucky, we can follow our passions. You've done that,

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Speaker 1: I've done that, and still at the same time, we

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Speaker 1: can change our hearts, can change, our minds can change.

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Speaker 1: We can start to kind of feel as creative fire

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Speaker 1: too that maybe we want to put our creativity toward

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Speaker 1: other things that does or does not bring us money.

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Speaker 1: So work is a really interesting way to kind of

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Speaker 1: as a microcosm of so many other things that are

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Speaker 1: going on for a woman, and it can particularly for

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Speaker 1: this time.

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Speaker 3: Well, and let's dig in a little bit.

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Speaker 2: And I know not everyone listening is a woman who works.

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Speaker 2: That's fine, We're going to get to the other things too.

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Speaker 2: But we do talk a lot about career arcs on

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Speaker 2: this podcast. And I thought, I thought, coming into my forties,

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Speaker 2: I believed very sincerely that my work, my job was

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Speaker 2: the thing that get like defined me the most, even

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Speaker 2: more than motherhood, which is more important to me. But

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Speaker 2: I felt it defined me less. And I feel like

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Speaker 2: you were getting at this. We get into our forties

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Speaker 2: and we start thinking about our priorities. Yes, we start

396
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Speaker 2: thinking about our value and self worth and what is

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Speaker 2: it really attached to. Is it attached to our kids,

398
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Speaker 2: is it attached to our jobs, Is it attached to

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Speaker 2: our family, our husband, our partner. That seems to be

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Speaker 2: kind of an existential question we start asking ourselves in

401
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Speaker 2: our forties, and asking it can be really scary, really.

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Speaker 1: Scary, yeah, of course, because we feel like, are we

403
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Speaker 1: pulling out the threads of kind of this quilt that

404
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Speaker 1: we've been working so hard.

405
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Speaker 2: To a and of everything we've known about ourselves, everything

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Speaker 2: we've known about ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And again, this should talk about a should work is

408
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Speaker 1: a should You should do this in this way by

409
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Speaker 1: this time, you should accomplish these things according to this

410
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,880
Speaker 1: totally made up, totally fabricated, arbitrary calendar. But still, even

411
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Speaker 1: though it's completely constructed by this larger system, it's there

412
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Speaker 1: and we pay attention to it. So when we start

413
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Speaker 1: kind of thinking about, oh wow, when we start looking

414
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Speaker 1: around for a second and wondering how I'm spend my time,

415
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Speaker 1: how im spending my energy?

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Speaker 4: Too?

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Speaker 1: We talk so much about time is finite, but energy

418
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Speaker 1: is finite. And I don't know about you, but energy

419
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Speaker 1: is much more finite for me these days. Oh for sure,

420
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Speaker 1: I like a good nine o'clock you know, bedtime too,

421
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Speaker 1: but it's all I'm.

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Speaker 3: Eight o'clock, nine o'clock.

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Speaker 1: That's lovely. Oh my gosh, it's great, But it's it's

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Speaker 1: totally what's the word, It's kind of an unraveling a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and also quite beautiful, not to be Pollyanna

426
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Speaker 1: about it. I mean the beauty is when we really

427
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Speaker 1: look at this and think, Okay, what do I really

428
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Speaker 1: hold so tightly that I think is always going to

429
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Speaker 1: be there for me my career when necessarily it's not.

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Speaker 1: What is going to be there for me? You know?

431
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Speaker 1: And what do I really want to work for? My health,

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Speaker 1: my worse, my family, my friends, the feeling I have

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Speaker 1: when I'm with myself alone to.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and who am I without that? Totally, it's a

435
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Speaker 3: very scary but important question.

436
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Speaker 1: Yes, I think the journey that we're on in our

437
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 1: forties is how does my interiority match my extrateriority? You know,

438
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 1: how does my inside kind of align with how I'm presenting?

439
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 1: And work can bring up a lot of that, and

440
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 1: for me, for so long in work too, I was hustling,

441
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: I was putting on the smile again. I liked, I

442
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 1: have liked, and I continue to like what I'm doing,

443
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 1: But a lot of times too, it was quite abusive.

444
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: I was not getting paid well, I was working myself

445
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 1: to the bone, and I know you have done that

446
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 1: as well. At the end of the day, I was

447
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: going to bed quite lonely, exhausted, depleted, and I'm thinking, Okay,

448
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 1: my career that I have quote unquote built is not

449
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: giving me back what it should be. It's taking so

450
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: much more that I'm giving it. And that's not sustainable,

451
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: that's not tenable. And it's also really critical no matter

452
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 1: what line of work we're in, is it taking more

453
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 1: from us than we're giving to it? And that's the

454
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: question to really.

455
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: Have it is And those are the questions that don't

456
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 2: come up in your twenties and thirties. You know, I

457
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 2: worked very hard in my twenties and thirties and made

458
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 2: a lot of sacrifices. I you know, was juggling a

459
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: full time job, a book tour, grad school speeches, travel,

460
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 2: all the things, and I really I burned myself out.

461
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,719
Speaker 2: But I thought, well, I'll do it now so that

462
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 2: when I have a family, or when I'm in my forties,

463
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 2: I can take a step back. And I mean I

464
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 2: could do that a little around motherhood, to like settle

465
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 2: into motherhood, but that didn't last. And now, actually, I

466
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 2: think because of so much change in my business and

467
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 2: in politics. Like I'm working as hard now as I

468
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: did in my twenties. I'm not thrilled about it, Stacy,

469
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 2: I'm not. I wouldn't choose this, okay, but this is

470
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: just where I have to be. And I'm not the

471
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: same person I was in my twenties and thirties. My

472
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: body's changed, my energy level is different, what I want

473
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: is different. So it's really tough to work like I'm

474
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: in my twenties while I'm in my forties.

475
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really tough. It's really tough. And I see

476
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: you and I see what you're doing, and I know

477
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: that's a fraction of what you are ultimately doing too

478
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: in your professional in your personal life. But I think

479
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 1: that's part of it though. When you really do care

480
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: and then you're doing you're doing something that also people

481
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: want you to show up too. When you have a

482
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: public based role too, people are expecting you, they want

483
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: to see you. You're feeding them. That's that's huge.

484
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: It's a lot.

485
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: And I know you talk a lot about empathy and

486
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: you're an EmPATH. I am too, and that is definitely

487
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: that definitely makes this job harder. You know, there's so

488
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: many times I look at colleagues who are just like.

489
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 3: I don't care. I'm just I'm just here to do

490
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 3: the job.

491
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: And then i go home and live my life, and

492
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: I'm so jealous, so jealous.

493
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 3: So jealous.

494
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: But I've really had to teach myself through like you know,

495
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: my my work on my mental health, to separate what

496
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: I'm covering from you know, what I'm living and what's

497
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: important inside my home and my family. But that's a

498
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 2: really hard thing, Like to peel those two things apart

499
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 2: is really hard because a I feel attached to the

500
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: things that are happening in the world. Be it feels

501
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: very like almost too privileged to remove yourself, like, well,

502
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: some people don't get to do that, why do I?

503
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: And through that third thing you said, people are expecting

504
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: me to talk about, you know, all this stuff.

505
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: And.

506
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 2: Sometimes I don't want to. Sometimes I can't. Sometimes I

507
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: don't have the words for it. Sometimes it's overwhelming. And

508
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 2: so in my forties is when I started when I

509
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: stopped just compartmentalizing everything and pushing through and saying I'll

510
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: deal with that later.

511
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: I'll deal with that later. Because my body turned on me.

512
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 2: My body shut down, and I had a nervous breakdown

513
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: and I, you know, my body was basically like, you

514
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: can't keep.

515
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: Doing this on repeat.

516
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: You're overdosing on anxiety and you've really got to deal

517
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: with it. And I just imagine that's harder to do

518
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 2: in your forties than it would be in your twenties

519
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: and thirties if you were really keeping a better eye

520
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: on your mental health.

521
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you can't ignore your body. You just can't,

522
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, and especially to this is the time when

523
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: we absolutely have to double down on taking care of ourselves.

524
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: However that looks, and however we're able to do that,

525
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: but we have to double down on it. But how

526
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: can we make the shifts there? How can we really

527
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: start talking about this in a way where it's not

528
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: these kind of macro terms of oh, you know, take

529
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: better care of yourself, step away, just I mean, that's

530
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: again all great, but how can we really start sharing practice, yeah,

531
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: you know, practical ways that we can be there for

532
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: each other, but ultimately for ourselves to start really caring

533
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: for ourselves, to start really listening too to that kind

534
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: of discomfort we're feeling and the confusion in our careers.

535
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: We're not going to find the answer tomorrow, but we

536
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: can start doing small things I think, to again genuinely

537
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: care for ourselves. It can be the smallest thing I see,

538
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: like I have such a guardrail up on emails. Well,

539
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: I really do tell people can't do it in their jobs,

540
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: but it's like I after six, I don't. I don't

541
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: unless there's a small window. And again, I'm in a

542
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: position right now that I can do that, right, So

543
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: it's different for everybody. I want to know. I used

544
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: to work the night shift as an anchor. I couldn't

545
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: do that and was working until midnight. But that shift

546
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: and I really honor it too. And I don't open

547
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: my email until after seven in the morning. I mean

548
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: I used to just kind of reach for my phone

549
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: and instantly look at everything that's going on. And I

550
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: noticed that actually was really really impacting my nervous system.

551
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: But it can be a small thing like that that

552
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: not saying okay, go quit your job. But there are

553
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: shifts that we can do, I think to allow us

554
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: a little bit more space to just be more compassionate too, Yeah,

555
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: be more a compassionate to ourselves. That again, things are changing,

556
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: as you said, it's just different. We're working differently than

557
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: as we did when we were in our twenties and thirties.

558
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: It's just different.

559
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: And I think we also start feeling permission to ask

560
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: for things, and like things I definitely wouldn't have asked

561
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: for in my thirties and twenties, both at work and

562
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 2: at home. Right, Like whether you're setting boundaries or you're

563
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: just trying.

564
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 3: To make your life a little easier.

565
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 2: I think that's sort of the upside of getting older,

566
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: is at least for me, I'll just speak for me.

567
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: I started sort of questioning the things I wasn't supposed

568
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: to do, the asks I wasn't supposed to make, and like, well,

569
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: why why can't I make that ask? What's going to

570
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: happen if I make this ask at work or at

571
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: home to make life easier for me?

572
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 3: What's going to happen if I do that.

573
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: There's something that happens in your forties that you're like,

574
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: maybe it's you just have like fewer f's to give.

575
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,719
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you just start self advocating in

576
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: a way that you know, I wish you could you

577
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: could start doing in your twenties and thirties, But it's

578
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 2: almost not even like it would be counterproductive to do

579
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: it in your twenties and thirties because you have a

580
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 2: arrived at the place where you're justified yet in making

581
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: those those you know.

582
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: Asks right, and again, it's I think it's because we

583
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: know ourselves so much better at this time, right, We're

584
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: really rapidly getting to know ourselves every year or two.

585
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: And it's just the default too. That's that's where the

586
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: systemic storytelling comes into play too. It is the default,

587
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: I think, and I think this is very gendered. I

588
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: think for women especially. You know what I've observed in

589
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: my work and my interviews. We're taught to go with

590
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: the status quo. We're taught to grin and bear it.

591
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: You know, we even totally our mothers and our aunts

592
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: and our grandmothers when it comes to going through menopause.

593
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: Oh you know what, what was that? You just grin

594
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: and bear it.

595
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: We're taught that.

596
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: So it is really cool that we start asking for things.

597
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: There's this awareness, it's like swell of awareness, and we

598
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: start realizing again too, oh my gosh, what's going to

599
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: happen if I ask for that thing, If I advocate

600
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: for myself, if I advocate for my time and my family.

601
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: Oh I'll get it. That's what's going to happen. I

602
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: get it right, right. The world's not going to fall apart, No, paid,

603
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: the patriarchy wants us to think that that's the case.

604
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: You know, don't ruffle any feathers you're.

605
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you think, like, what are they going to

606
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 3: think of me?

607
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: Right? Right?

608
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: There's this discussion there's a lot of discussion right now online.

609
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: I don't know how online you are, but about women

610
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: in their forties.

611
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: So our generation, which is like Gen X and millennials

612
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: cusp that we look better than a lot.

613
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 3: Of girls in their twenties. Have you seen that?

614
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 4: No?

615
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, there's this thing on.

616
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: Like TikTok where like people are saying maybe it's because

617
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: young girls are having work done earlier and or whatever

618
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: or growing up in the age of social media whatever

619
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: it is. Pople are saying that women in their forties today,

620
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: so millennials and Gen X look better than younger generations

621
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: do before us.

622
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's wild. I wonder what that is. I

623
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: wonder what better means.

624
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: To I know, I know it is conjected, but like

625
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: more natural, Yeah, which I can see too, because again,

626
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: like growing up in the age of social media, which

627
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: we didn't.

628
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 3: Luckily, we weren't as performative.

629
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: And yes we had seventeen magazine and supermodels, but we

630
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: weren't expected to compete with them in photographs.

631
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 4: Right.

632
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: Our photographs went into a photo album that lived under

633
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: our bed or in our hope jest.

634
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: Right, we weren't living a life.

635
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: Where we were taking pictures trying to compete with all

636
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: the famous people and then posting them for everyone to judge. Like,

637
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: I can't imagine growing up like this. I'm wondering what

638
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: you think girls in their twenties today will be like

639
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: in their forties in twenty years from now.

640
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: What concerns me the most in this entire conversation, but

641
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: specifically when it comes to this, is critical thinking. I

642
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: think about that. I think about our critical thinking right

643
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: now is so suppressed. But particularly I think for a

644
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: lot of one young women, particularly when it comes to

645
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: what they're going to wear, what they're going to look like,

646
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 1: their makeup, all of that. So going back to seventy Magazine,

647
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: all those magazines, we would get that if we're lucky

648
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: once a month and it was exciting, and we would

649
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: read it. We would open up, but I would pull

650
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: out pages. I would dog your pages, all of that,

651
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: but it was contained right, It was darling, and we

652
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: put it on the coffee table and then went and

653
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: lived our lives and went and got dirty or went

654
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: and talked about lip gloss or whatever. You know, as

655
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: we got older with their girlfriends, every single thing that

656
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: we do, and for all of us, no matter our age,

657
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: but decisions are sort of made for us all the time.

658
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: You have to wear jeans that look like this right now,

659
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: you have to contour your face a certain way. You

660
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: have to stop your eyes from crinkling after you know

661
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: this age or whatever it is. But it concerns me too.

662
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: I am so pro a woman doing what she wants.

663
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: I could be more pro with your body, with your makeup,

664
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: with your look, with your sexuality, with your dating, whatever

665
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: it is. But I am not pro us always satisfying

666
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: these narratives, and the narratives are just totally surrounding other

667
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: younger women in ways I don't think they really realize.

668
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: And I think it's really cool and important that older

669
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: generations are talking about it. So maybe they're starting to

670
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: see because they're brilliant too. Younger women are brilliant and

671
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: smart and motivated. I think they're going to change the

672
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: world all of that, But when it comes to particularly beauty,

673
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: it does concern me a little because how do you

674
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: know what you really like too? How do you know

675
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: what you really want to wear? How do you know

676
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: there's no more going to limited to or yeah forever

677
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: twenty one or whatever, and kind of splurging on a

678
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: couple of tops and thinking, oh, I think I look

679
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: good in this color. No, it's this is the color

680
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: that we're supposed to wear. This is what the influencers

681
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: are doing. So critical thinking is something I want us to,

682
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: like start Critical Thinking book club or something.

683
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 4: I love that.

684
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: There's also a big discussion online now around having kids

685
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: or not having kids, and I really hate this conversation because,

686
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: like everything else, that's becoming us versus them, like a

687
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: political statement pitting women against each other. I'm also pro

688
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: do what you want, but you know, whichever side of

689
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: it you're on, and I hate.

690
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: That there are sides, but there are you know, there's

691
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: sort of superiority.

692
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: Complex that I have kids and so should you, or

693
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: I'm not having kids and why are why are you?

694
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: And I'm sort of doing the on the better path.

695
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: I just hate that. And why do we as women.

696
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: Either create those binary conflicts with each other or allow

697
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: them to be created and then we fulfill them, right, Like,

698
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: I just watch this happen over the past few years

699
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: around kids, and I just hate the conversation because it's

700
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: I hate that there are a great conversations to have

701
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: around whether or not to have children, but it's not

702
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: the ones I'm seeing most most often.

703
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: And I hate it too because it is so binaried.

704
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 1: And I think most things that are binary just miss

705
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: all the nuance of being alive and being a person.

706
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: So I mean, you just can't unless you're talking literally

707
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: about if you're going to have chocolate ice cream or

708
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: ventilazed bright right, that's a binary decision, but at nothing

709
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: when it comes to the complexity of just being alive.

710
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 1: Nothing is h for something that is so intimate and

711
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: just so deeply personal but also cultural about motherhood in general,

712
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: it is so so so disheartening. And the other thing is,

713
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: I do think it's larger forces at play and that

714
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: when we sort of reinforce it, because yes, we know

715
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: that women can be quite mean to other women unfortunately,

716
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: but when you look at the bigger picture, it's induced

717
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: by fear, it's induced by these systemic stories. It's something

718
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: larger than us that's perpetuating this. I'm not justifying anybody's

719
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: bad behavior. I really think we need to just give

720
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: each other a break, be more compassionate online and offline,

721
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: of course. But one of the beautiful conversations I had

722
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: with a woman in the book named Sarah, and she

723
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 1: talked about she is a mother, she has a daughter,

724
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: and she said, I have a lot of friends who

725
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: don't have kids, and they're kind of wrestling with this.

726
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: But there is hardship with either situation. There just is, Yeah,

727
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: so why can't we talk more about that also too?

728
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: I chose not to have kids, see, and I still

729
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: have a ton of grief around it. Not regret, but

730
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: I have a lot of grief around it. And I

731
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: can't just answer, you know, when people have asked me,

732
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: you gotta have kids? Do you want kids? Why don't

733
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: you have kids? It's not a neat easy answer. It's

734
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: just not. It's multifaceted, it is messy, It is confusing

735
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: still for me. There's grief, there's loss, there's relief in

736
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: it too, and I just again, I think that's a

737
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: microcosm of life, and so it really saddens me that

738
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: there's this binary and it really fills me with hope

739
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: that you're bringing it up right now, because that's what

740
00:35:59,440 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: we need to do.

741
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: Well.

742
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it's you know, it's in the world that I cover, right,

743
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 2: it's become politicized, and you know, you've got the sort

744
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: of trad wife movement on the far right, you know

745
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 2: that has sort of this moral imperative to have children,

746
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: and you're a bad person if you don't.

747
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 3: And why aren't you populating the planet?

748
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I won't say that's crazy, but like, that's

749
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: certainly not something I would ever inflict on a group

750
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 2: of people, Like you must be like this or you're

751
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 2: somehow less than But I also like, I am a mom.

752
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: It's the thing I'm the most proud of.

753
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 4: I love.

754
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: I can't imagine my life not being a mom. You

755
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: can't imagine your life with children because you don't have

756
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 2: them yet. We should be having more conversations with each

757
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: other so you understand me and I understand you, rather

758
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,479
Speaker 2: than pitting us against each other where we don't talk,

759
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 2: we just udge each other. That's the worst thing we

760
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: could possibly do in a situation around an issue that

761
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: is incredibly intimate, incredibly personal.

762
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: It's beautiful. Both choices are beautiful.

763
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: Both choices bring unwanted issues and anxieties.

764
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 3: But like, we're just humans.

765
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: Can't we just talk about being human and the human

766
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: experience and condition without saying you need to be more

767
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: like this?

768
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 3: It's crazy to me.

769
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: And I think again it's fear based. I really really

770
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: do too, because I can get really angry sometimes, and

771
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: I have been at the brunt of massive judgment and

772
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: unfortunately from some women, not as much but from some women,

773
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: but to society, a search to not as much now

774
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: that I'm moving deeper into my forties, you know, but

775
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: I used to get the questions all the time when

776
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: you get to have kids, you don't have kids? What's

777
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: going on? All of that constantly then? And I wasn't

778
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: married for I did and get married until I was

779
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: forty three? What was wrong with me?

780
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 4: Then? Like?

781
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: What do you do?

782
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 4: Right?

783
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: It's but it's so much of it I think is fear.

784
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: I do and I think when I have felt that

785
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: anger or that oh, I just want to defend myself.

786
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: I don't want to prove myself. I don't want to

787
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: feel like I'm always in the game of proving myself.

788
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: We're justifying my life. That's the thing too. Something at

789
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: step out the door every day and just justify our

790
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: choices and are non choices, you know, but just justify

791
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: our life. No one should have to do that. But

792
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: I look at it as again, that's something that is manufactured,

793
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: that's bigger than us, and it really impacts us differently.

794
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: And for the people I think that kind of choose

795
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: sides and judge, I think it's probably pushed on their

796
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: hearts a little bit more. Maybe it's made their life

797
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: a little bit harder, maybe it's just but again it's

798
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 1: induced more fear in them. And so I try try.

799
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: I'm not always successful. Yeah, to have compassion and think, okay,

800
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: what's going on in your life that you feel that

801
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: you need to judge me, or to feel that you're

802
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: superior because you're walking this path and I'm walking this path.

803
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: There's no one path.

804
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 3: For a life. No, no, of course not no, I'm not.

805
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: I don't have a neon sign, but I think if

806
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: I ever were to have one, I would probably say

807
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 1: something like that, there's a little bit paths I.

808
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: Love that I have a neon sign.

809
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 4: What is it? Say it?

810
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: It was a gift from my husband. I love it.

811
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: That's a good gift.

812
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 2: It's a good it's a good sam all right, Well,

813
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 2: this was a great conversation. I want to thank you

814
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: for coming on off the cup. We like to end

815
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: with a lightning round. It's meant to be fun. If

816
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: you're game, I'm game.

817
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 3: What's your favorite movie?

818
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, singles. I want to singles?

819
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: Yes, through such a generational poll.

820
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: I love it. It is Cameron Crow. Yeah, you got

821
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: Pearl jam, you got Chris Cornell, you got all of it.

822
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: You got Seattle Singles.

823
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 3: Oh totally.

824
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: Wow.

825
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: I haven't thought about that movie in a really long time.

826
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: That's a great one. Uh okay, what's the perfect date

827
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: night for you and her husband?

828
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: I love live music and I don't have enough of

829
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: it in my life, So if we can get some

830
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: live music in, ideally on the early side. I think

831
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: you were talking about this with Heather Dubrow recently too,

832
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: like can we have an early concert? Right? You were so,

833
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: I can't really do the nine pm concerts anymore. Maybe

834
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: there's a one off in the summertime, But so I

835
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: think that's probably why it's hard to find live music.

836
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: It is because I want it on the earlier side.

837
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: But I love to go out live jazz dinner, Yeah,

838
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: night by nine.

839
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: Yep, that's like girl, but yeah, sure, yep with you too. Okay,

840
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: what was your worst vacation?

841
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I mean, you know, I'm probably I know

842
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: I'm not alone in saying this. It was a trip

843
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: I took with a guy that I should not have

844
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: gone on a trip with this guy. And the funny

845
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: thing is, too, I have a dear friend from high school.

846
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: He is still to this day one of my dearests.

847
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: He's a guy he's always been there for me. We've

848
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: always had this amazing platonic relationship. He came and rescued

849
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: me in Chicago. He drove from Boston out to Chicago

850
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: to sort of intercept and he came up with some

851
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: excuse too. So basically, the trip with this guy turned

852
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: into kind of a threesome of all of us, and

853
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: he took some of the pressure off. It was pretty great.

854
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: It makes for a great story.

855
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: That's amazing.

856
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: We I interviewed the late James Vanderbeek and he told

857
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 2: a similar story of going on a vacation with a

858
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: girl who wasn't meant to be with and they were

859
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: on this like remote island and they get to the island,

860
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: he's like, I cannot stay here with you right now,

861
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: and like got the boat that drove him over and

862
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: like took him back to the mainland. Like, oh, being

863
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: with someone you know you're not meant to be with

864
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: is like stifling.

865
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: Stifling is the perfect word for it.

866
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: Your draft, totally, it is. But yeah, you know you

867
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: can laugh about it later on that turned and turned

868
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: into a fun time for you.

869
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 3: That's good.

870
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: Could you ever see yourself living in a foreign country

871
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: and where would that be?

872
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 3: I could?

873
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: Oh? Many, absolutely, I'm curious.

874
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: Yet you too, Oh yeah, I want to turn to

875
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,479
Speaker 2: fantasize about it all the time.

876
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: Where do you fantasize?

877
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, we spent some time in Belgium. We really love

878
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: Belgium for many reasons. The food is fantastic, it's super safe,

879
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 2: it's clean, it's beautiful, it's well positioned for other kinds

880
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 2: of travel.

881
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: It's great.

882
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: But like, I could live in Italy, I could live

883
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: in France, I could live I'm very curious about Japan

884
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: seems super safe and very good for my anxiety. I

885
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: would love to go there, you know, I think we

886
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 2: think about it all the time.

887
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: Where would you go? Have you been to Norway?

888
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: I haven't. I would love.

889
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: You're gonna want to end today, it seems so that's

890
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,479
Speaker 1: my answer for you. I love Argentina. I don't think

891
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: that I would choose that though as a second home.

892
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many places I'm privileged to say

893
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: that I've been to that I love. But if I

894
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: had to choose one place right now, Norway.

895
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: God, that seems good for my anxiety as well.

896
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, everything about it. It is so clean,

897
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: it's so friendly, it is so efficient, well run, it's

898
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: so safe. It is stunning. It's so good for the

899
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: nervous system too. We need to start. Maybe we'll have

900
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: a retreat or something for women in the forties and

901
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: we go to Norway, because everything about that country just

902
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: put me at ease.

903
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: Court This is what I need, and is Falbard in Norway.

904
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 2: Hobbard is like the northernmost town. I don't know that

905
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: populated town. I think it's Norway. And okay, it's like

906
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: in twenty three hours of darkness half the year, twenty

907
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 2: three hours of something half the air. It sounds amazing,

908
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: like just this little capsule of community that I think

909
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: would do really well for my anxiety.

910
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: But to add to that, though, we started in Oslo,

911
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 1: which is a massive city, and there was something about

912
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: that city that still was peaceful and safe in cam

913
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: being in a metropolitan city. And then you know, you

914
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: go across the country, you go to Bergen, and you go,

915
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: it's just fantastic. I can't wait for you to.

916
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 2: Go, Okay, I'm going, okay, what's the right room temperature

917
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: in an office?

918
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: And who should set it?

919
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: Oh? Man, you are really asking, you're going for.

920
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 3: Converts to sleep.

921
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: My mind went to sleep because I like it. I

922
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: like it cool. I like it mid.

923
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 3: Sixties you're supposed to for sleep, but for a sleep.

924
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: For an office, that's it. It's funny. I would say seventy.

925
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 3: Well, that's the perfect temperature.

926
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: Is that right?

927
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 3: I'm looking at you answer. I think seventy is right.

928
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: And but I'm always curious about, like who sets these

929
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: office temperatures because it feels like men because it's always freezing.

930
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 3: It's always freezing.

931
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,919
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, do we have another hour to keep

932
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: talking to because talk about the work world too. I mean,

933
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: how men have created, talk about manufacturing something, How the

934
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: whole entire workday has been aligned for a man, for men, rhythm,

935
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: for their biology, everything, their hormones, How their hormones kind

936
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: of fluctuate so differently than ours. Everything is set up.

937
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: We have different creative peaks, we have different times we're

938
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: on off. It's so fascinating. So that's so the office

939
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: temperature is probably it's like the leal mind.

940
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: As the least. Okay, who's a woman you admire.

941
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: Right now? I have to say Maria Shreiver because we

942
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: talked about her already and she was a massive inspiration

943
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: for this book. Sure, yeah, and I'm really grateful to

944
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: say I know her. My mind goes to fellow journalists.

945
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 1: My mind goes to the women who do our work.

946
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: I think of Sharon ol Fonci and I was lucky

947
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: to intern with her, and I see what she's doing

948
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: now in her work, in the story she covers. So

949
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm just in awe because again, the work you do, Essie,

950
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it is emotionally mentally taxing every day. So

951
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: I just again want to thank you for doing what

952
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: you do. So I think about women journalists when I

953
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: think about women. I admire me too.

954
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: Love that.

955
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: Okay, last question is very important to me. We ask

956
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: it at the end of every podcast. When is it

957
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: iced coffee season? You better get this right, girl?

958
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 1: I love this radically indulgent, random of me. A unique question.

959
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: I just have to say. I love it so much.

960
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: So when is the right time?

961
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 3: When is it iced coffee season season?

962
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 2: It might be a trick question, but as a as

963
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: a masshole, you'd better get this right.

964
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: See, I'm gonna say it's always iced coffee season. Yeah,

965
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: then can I add to that though things? Yes, I

966
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: am a coffee girl. The reason why I go to

967
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: bed at night is to wake up to have coffee. Now,

968
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: I like my hot, I wait for hot. I love

969
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: coffee so much.

970
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 3: Say that again.

971
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: The reason I go to bed early is so I

972
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 2: can get up and have coffee.

973
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 3: I mean, and make that to me sign that's.

974
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: Fantastic, or I'll put that on a casual sweater or something.

975
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: I'm grateful to say that. I love my life, I

976
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: love my husband, I love my friends. I am working.

977
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: I have not arrived yet. We'll see when I have.

978
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: But things, I'm feeling good because I'm pushing against all

979
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: these things and feeling good. But the last thing I

980
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: think about is coffee at night. I love my dog.

981
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: I don't think about my dog and I I think

982
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: about coffee. So I'm a fun betty girl. This is

983
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: a whole another and I know this is You're super

984
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: passionate about this. I'm talking about coffee, so I'm a

985
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: hot coffee girl. I appreciate ice coffee. I know not

986
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,959
Speaker 1: as much as you do it, Okay, but I think

987
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: that the season is always And I'm waiting for our

988
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: dunkin Donuts commercial. I think Dunkin Donuts should hire you.

989
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 3: Well, me too, obviously, You and it.

990
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you and me, We're doing the next Duncan commercial.

991
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: Stacy Lindsay. This was so much fun.

992
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: The new book is being forty the decade of letting

993
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: go and embracing who we are.

994
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 3: You can pre order it now, right, yes, yeah, go

995
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: pre order it. And it was just great talking to

996
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 3: you and I love what you're working on. We'll have

997
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 3: to keep in touch, we will.

998
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: This was so fun. This was so enlivening. Thank you

999
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: loved it.

1000
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1001
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 2: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as

1002
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 2: part of the Reason Choice Network.

1003
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 3: If you want more, check out the.

1004
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: Other Reason Choice Podcasts Politics with Jamel Hill and Nay

1005
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 2: of Land Pod. For Off the Cup, I am your

1006
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: host se Cup. Editing and sound design by Derek Clements.

1007
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson, and

1008
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 2: Lindsay Hoffman.

1009
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: Rate and review wherever you

1010
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 2: Get your podcasts, follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.