WEBVTT - Hypochondria, Psychosomatic Disorder, and Placebo Effect: Mind Over Matter – Lab 058

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<v Speaker 1>You know, t T. I think we can really convince

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<v Speaker 1>ourselves of a lot of things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I've convinced myself of a lot of things, Like

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<v Speaker 2>I'm six foot tall. I am also four foot eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>Listen, different circumstances require different heights exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes I'm like, how did I have my head on

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<v Speaker 2>this doorframe? Right? I'm six foot I'm not six foot.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, I think if the past year has

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<v Speaker 1>taught me anything. My friends used to tell me that

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<v Speaker 1>I was a hypochondriac, and I said, Oh, they're just

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<v Speaker 1>throwing that word around. They don't really mean that. But

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<v Speaker 1>the mind body connection, when I get it in my mind,

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<v Speaker 1>they're like, oh I might be sick. It's like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm failing. I'm not well, even if I was having

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<v Speaker 1>those symptoms before. As soon as I decided in my brain,

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<v Speaker 1>I've fallen into a dcline like it's a rap. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think we really need to explore that a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit more. That mind body connection underrated. I'm TT and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Zakiyah and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Dope Labs. We're a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,

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<v Speaker 1>pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship.

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<v Speaker 2>This week, we're talking about how the mind and the

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<v Speaker 2>body intersect. Specifically, we really wanted to know more about

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<v Speaker 2>the mind's ability to affect how we feel, whether that's

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<v Speaker 2>better or worse.

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<v Speaker 1>You may have heard the term psychosomatic before.

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<v Speaker 2>I've heard it on TV, you know, like on medical dramas,

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<v Speaker 2>but I've never really been sure about the actual definition.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it means something that involves both the mind and

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<v Speaker 1>the body. So literally the word pairs the Greek words,

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<v Speaker 1>which means of the mind, with soma, which means of

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<v Speaker 1>the body.

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<v Speaker 2>And today we're going to talk about just how connected

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<v Speaker 2>those two things really are, all right, T T. I

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<v Speaker 2>think I know what you're gonna say. I'm very excited.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's kick off the recitation. I think the thing that

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<v Speaker 1>we all know is that our minds are very strong.

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<v Speaker 1>Our minds are like the central hub for our bodies.

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<v Speaker 1>But sometimes we can't trust these minds absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>I know my mind has definitely played tricks on me,

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<v Speaker 2>and I can think of a few times your mind

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<v Speaker 2>has played tricks on you. There have been a few

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<v Speaker 2>bugs that I've been asked to dispose of, and they

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<v Speaker 2>were a lot smaller than what you had originally said

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<v Speaker 2>that they were.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a mind of scale, you know, it was

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<v Speaker 1>able to easily scale. Now, some people might think that's positive, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>And so one of the ways that our mind can

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<v Speaker 2>positively affect us is the placebo effect, right. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think a lot of people have heard of the placebo effect,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's usually associated with drug trials where they might

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<v Speaker 2>be testing out a drug and then they give a

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<v Speaker 2>certain group of people a placebo, so just a sugar

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<v Speaker 2>pill instead of the actual drug. And if the people

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<v Speaker 2>are aware of what the effects of the drug should be,

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<v Speaker 2>their mind might trick them into saying that they do

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<v Speaker 2>feel those effects. Yeah, And I've also heard of hypochondria,

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<v Speaker 2>So I think that's a term that people use a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't really know the difference between yes, being

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<v Speaker 2>a hypochondriac or you know, other things.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I think the other question I have is

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<v Speaker 1>around psychosomatic disorders and symptoms. When we say what do

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<v Speaker 1>all these things have in common? I think for me,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the connection of the mind and the body absolutely,

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<v Speaker 1>And then that leads us to our overarching question for

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, which is, how does the mind have control

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<v Speaker 1>over the matter? You know, the body those are some

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<v Speaker 1>very good questions and I cannot wait to hear the

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<v Speaker 1>answers for today's dissection. Our guest expert is doctor Susanne O'Sullivan.

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<v Speaker 3>My name is Susan O. Sullivan. I am a consultant

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<v Speaker 3>neurologist and clinical neurophysiologist based at the National Hospital for

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<v Speaker 3>Neurology in London.

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<v Speaker 2>We just want to have a greater understanding of what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening in this mind body connection.

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<v Speaker 1>We've reached out to doctor O'Sullivan on our quests to

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<v Speaker 1>really understand how aware is too aware. So when you're

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<v Speaker 1>paying attention to your body, is that good? Or can

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<v Speaker 1>you venture into this area where you're paying too much

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<v Speaker 1>attention and then your mind is playing tricks on you?

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that was our starting point. The mind.

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<v Speaker 3>The first thing to say is that our mind is

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<v Speaker 3>constantly altering our physical sort of experience of the world

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<v Speaker 3>and our experience of our own bodies. So the mind

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<v Speaker 3>body interaction is much greater, I think than most people realize.

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<v Speaker 2>Our brain is constantly making assessments. Our brains are never resting.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just as simple as oh I touched this

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<v Speaker 2>hot stove out, let me pull my hand away. It's

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<v Speaker 2>also taking memories from the past stored in your mind

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<v Speaker 2>to inform your body's reaction.

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<v Speaker 1>A good example of this is how we sometimes react

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<v Speaker 1>in anticipation of something. So if you've ever said our

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<v Speaker 1>winced before you even got hurt, or like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you always stub your toe on that side of the bed,

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<v Speaker 1>it's because our brains are working so fast and processing

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<v Speaker 1>so many things that it's just automatically giving you that

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<v Speaker 1>signal you're about to get hurt or you are hurt. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>and if you took the time to acknowledge every single

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<v Speaker 1>thing your brain is processing, we probably wouldn't even make

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<v Speaker 1>it out a bit.

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<v Speaker 2>So, now that we have a baseline for understanding how

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<v Speaker 2>the mind operates under typical circumstances, let's talk about what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening when certain processes in the mind are stronger, louder,

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<v Speaker 2>and more prominent.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's a good point what you said about

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<v Speaker 1>understand the typical circumstance, because I think we take for

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<v Speaker 1>granted that in all physical disease there's a mental component. Absolutely,

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<v Speaker 1>if I break my ankle and it inhibits my mobility,

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<v Speaker 1>depending on how it feels to me that my subjective

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<v Speaker 1>experience that could be really devastating, that could lead to

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<v Speaker 1>depression other things. There's a mental component to every physical disease.

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<v Speaker 1>I think would you agree with.

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<v Speaker 2>That absolutely, because I mean, using the same like break

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<v Speaker 2>your ankle situation, your brain starts to tell your body, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>you need to lean more on if it's your right angle,

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<v Speaker 2>lean more on your left hand. Yes, So you start

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<v Speaker 2>to compensate for whatever that injury is. Like we've all

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<v Speaker 2>been there with different things. Your brain is making all

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<v Speaker 2>of these corrections in the presence of these injuries.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think over the past couple of years, this

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<v Speaker 1>is something that we've really come to understand more and

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<v Speaker 1>accept more, both in the medical field and in the

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<v Speaker 1>general population. People see how stress can exist to ascerbate

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<v Speaker 1>other physical factors.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. Yes, when we all started working from home,

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<v Speaker 2>like when the lockdown was really in place, I think

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<v Speaker 2>we all started to feel that stress.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think something we've been interested in and what

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<v Speaker 1>we want to explore with doctor O'Sullivan is what are

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<v Speaker 1>some of the other ways that the mind can control

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<v Speaker 1>the body. And we see something that is a new

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<v Speaker 1>physical symptom that is completely controlled by the mind or

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<v Speaker 1>completely driven by the mind, and I think that's what

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<v Speaker 1>basically psychosomatic disorders are.

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<v Speaker 2>It really makes me start to think a lot more so,

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<v Speaker 2>what are some other ways that the brain can produce

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<v Speaker 2>or manifest a physical symptom or something that isn't necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>linked to it. I really want to know the actual definition,

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<v Speaker 2>like what falls under the umbrella of psychosomatic disorder?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what does it mean?

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<v Speaker 3>So that means real physical symptoms. And I'm really emphasizing

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<v Speaker 3>the word real because I think people when they hear

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<v Speaker 3>psychosomatic they start thinking imaginary. But these are real physical

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<v Speaker 3>symptoms that are for psychological reasons. I'm going to qualify

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<v Speaker 3>the word psychological a little bit there, because again people

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<v Speaker 3>think psychological means madness, insanity of some sort. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>when I'm using the term psychological, I'm really talking about

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<v Speaker 3>all the different functions of the mind, not necessarily pertaining

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<v Speaker 3>to a psychiatric illness, for example.

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<v Speaker 1>So there are psychosomatic symptoms, and you get these different

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<v Speaker 1>symptoms within a psychosomatic disorder, But what about hypochondria. How

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<v Speaker 1>is that related to psychosomatic disorders.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not to say they're not related at all, but

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<v Speaker 3>they are different phenomenon psychosomatic symptoms are physical symptoms with

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<v Speaker 3>or without psychological distress. Hypochondria is psychological distress, probably without

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<v Speaker 3>any actual physical symptoms. So their predominant experience really is

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<v Speaker 3>the anxiety, and the thing that's disabling them is anxiety

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<v Speaker 3>about illness.

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<v Speaker 1>So these almost feel like opposites, right, because hypochondria is

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<v Speaker 1>sheer psychological distress but no actual physical manifestation. It may

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<v Speaker 1>be anxiety or anxiety about illness, but with no physical symptoms.

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<v Speaker 1>But on the other hand, it seems like psychosomatic disorders

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<v Speaker 1>present with these physical symptoms.

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<v Speaker 2>What kind of symptoms do they have? Do psychosomatic disorders

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<v Speaker 2>always present themselves in the same way.

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<v Speaker 3>Every physical symptom you can imagine can be produced through

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<v Speaker 3>psychological mechanisms, so the symptom can be anything, And I

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<v Speaker 3>find the symptom is often determined either from their personal

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<v Speaker 3>experience or their knowledge base, or as a result of

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<v Speaker 3>a specific thing that's happened to them. And therefore all

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<v Speaker 3>of these sort of psychosomatic symptoms are drawn usually from

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<v Speaker 3>our environments.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like this makes a lot of sense, especially

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<v Speaker 1>when we think about COVID nineteen. When you think back

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<v Speaker 1>to the early days, I'm talking March and April of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty. We didn't know what was going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Those were crazy times, yes, and people were just saying,

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<v Speaker 2>are you experiencing shortness of breath?

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<v Speaker 1>Are you having chest pain? I was like, maybe I

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<v Speaker 1>was double checking everything.

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<v Speaker 2>I would run up the steps and be like, am

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<v Speaker 2>I usually this winded? I don't think so. And so

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<v Speaker 2>then I was making myself nervous.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was checking my temperature with the back of

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<v Speaker 1>my hand, and I would say to myself, boiling hot,

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<v Speaker 1>you definitely have a fever.

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<v Speaker 2>But you had just gotten off the bike.

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<v Speaker 1>But then I would get my thermometer and it wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>even say ninety eight point six. So clearly my mind

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<v Speaker 1>was telling me something different than what was really going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Similar things were happening with me because it was allergy season,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I'm coughing because I have allergies and sneezing

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm having issues because I also have asthma and

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<v Speaker 2>using inhaler, and so I was just like, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what's linked to what. I couldn't focus and figure

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<v Speaker 2>out if this was just my mind playing tricks on

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<v Speaker 2>me and these are just my allergy symptoms, or if

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<v Speaker 2>you know COVID had got me.

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<v Speaker 1>Did your allergies always feel like that?

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly? I was like calling in the question. Literally, everything are.

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<v Speaker 1>Usually based in something that you've experienced. So we were

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<v Speaker 1>all aware and experiencing a respiratory virus that was sweeping

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<v Speaker 1>across the globe. So everybody's thinking about their breathing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but you can imagine if it wasn't confined to the

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<v Speaker 1>respiratory system and it was related to something else, like.

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<v Speaker 2>A hair loss pandemic, I would be counting all of

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<v Speaker 2>the hairs in my white tooth comb a little bit closer.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, every straight hair would be a cause for panic.

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<v Speaker 2>Every hair matters.

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<v Speaker 1>The interesting part that doctor os Sullivan was saying is

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<v Speaker 1>that it usually starts with an actual disease. So if

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<v Speaker 1>you've had some bad bout of like gastro enteritis. What

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<v Speaker 1>is gastro enteritis? I've never heard of that. You might

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<v Speaker 1>not have heard of it, but you might have experienced

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<v Speaker 1>it if you drink contaminated food or water. Some people

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<v Speaker 1>call it the stomach flu.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, yes, it is awful.

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<v Speaker 1>Upset stomach okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Upset stomach diarrhea, yeahpops.

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<v Speaker 1>No commercial. But I've always been more of a fan

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<v Speaker 1>of Kopec tape.

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<v Speaker 2>My friend is choosing Okay, I think we've all been there.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you had a bad about of gastro enteritis,

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<v Speaker 1>you're already focused on your stomach, so your psychosomatic symptoms

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<v Speaker 1>could manifest around the gut. But interestingly, that's not where

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<v Speaker 1>they always manifest. Doctor O'suliva says, you know, you could

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<v Speaker 1>start with the gut because that's what you're familiar with,

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<v Speaker 1>But there's also a possibility that you have symptoms that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of move around the body too.

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<v Speaker 3>But then once a person is prone to these disorders,

0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:40.959
<v Speaker 3>one characteristic of them is that they tend to move around.

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.720
<v Speaker 3>So people are particularly badly affected by this will often

0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.520
<v Speaker 3>have come to me with a list of diagnoses, you know,

0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.599
<v Speaker 3>and these will be young people because it's often to

0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.040
<v Speaker 3>sort of young people. You might see someone who's twenty

0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.320
<v Speaker 3>years old and they walk in the door and they've

0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.360
<v Speaker 3>got ten separate diagnoses because they are someone who has

0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.599
<v Speaker 3>a tendency to express themselves through physical symptoms and that

0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.199
<v Speaker 3>moves around their body of putting to what's happening in

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:05.679
<v Speaker 3>their lives.

0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.120
<v Speaker 2>What I want to understand is, like, how how does

0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.960
<v Speaker 2>the mind create physical symptoms without a specific biological trigger.

0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.520
<v Speaker 1>We ask doctor O Sullivan to walk us through how

0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.760
<v Speaker 1>this really works, this circuitry of stimulus and response and risk.

0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.679
<v Speaker 3>Even so, I think the most important thing to know

0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.280
<v Speaker 3>in this question is about a thing called top down processing.

0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.240
<v Speaker 3>So I think a lot of people sort of have

0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.040
<v Speaker 3>the kind of concept that you're you're looking at something

0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 3>and you're almost recording it, like a camera or a

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.080
<v Speaker 3>video recorder or something that you're just soaking up information.

0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:42.079
<v Speaker 3>And when you learn about neurology as a neurologist or

0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.040
<v Speaker 3>as a biologist, you learn about you know, this is

0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.560
<v Speaker 3>where the nerves begin and they travel up through the body,

0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.760
<v Speaker 3>and it makes it sound very electrical. It makes it

0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 3>sound like a light switch or something, but it's not

0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 3>like that. What's actually happening is that as a sensory

0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.760
<v Speaker 3>stimulus is entering, be it a visual stimulus or a

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.000
<v Speaker 3>sensation or a sound, it is being compared by top

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.440
<v Speaker 3>down processing to priors and expectations that you have stored

0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.600
<v Speaker 3>in your brain. So we have all these expectations stored

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 3>in our brains, and when we look at something, as

0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.040
<v Speaker 3>the information is entering from below, it's also being processed

0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.520
<v Speaker 3>from above and compared with our expectations.

0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I think we're about to say the same thing.

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Doctor rober Wiley here from Lab thirty. Yes, yes, doctor Wiley,

0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.200
<v Speaker 2>that's right. Doctor Wiley talked about this type of dual

0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.480
<v Speaker 2>processing in Lab thirty. We call it science sale delivered.

0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.560
<v Speaker 2>Our brain creates shortcuts while we're reading this.

0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.560
<v Speaker 1>Is while you know. It really is all about our

0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 1>brains and their previous experiences and expectations.

0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.040
<v Speaker 3>You know, there are lots of kind of thought experiments

0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.640
<v Speaker 3>you can use that will show to people how easy

0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.840
<v Speaker 3>it is to derail your body. So you know, if

0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:59.760
<v Speaker 3>I ask somebody to walk on a narrow line on

0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 3>the road, you know most of us could do it

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 3>with no difficulty. If I asked you to walk exactly

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.360
<v Speaker 3>the same line on the edge of the cliff or

0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.680
<v Speaker 3>the top of a high wall or something, it changes

0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.760
<v Speaker 3>the way you think about your body, and your entire

0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.160
<v Speaker 3>coordination has now been changed. And I've done nothing but

0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 3>changed your position.

0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.240
<v Speaker 2>I actually had this happen to me, So me and

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.600
<v Speaker 2>my husband went on a really long hike for our honeymoon,

0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 2>don't ask about it, and I fell pretty far at

0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.160
<v Speaker 2>one point, it was very traumatizing because I was very scared.

0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.200
<v Speaker 2>I thought I was going to die. So I went

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.000
<v Speaker 2>from being surefooted so like not even really paying attention

0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 2>to how I walk or what I was doing, so

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 2>feeling like every step that I took could be the

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.480
<v Speaker 2>end of my life. So now even if I'm walking

0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.120
<v Speaker 2>on like a tall curb, I'm shaking. I don't know

0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.280
<v Speaker 2>what's going on. I'm like, this is a little bit

0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.560
<v Speaker 2>high up off the ground, and I'm not sure if

0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 2>I can make it. Yeah, So I'm not injured and

0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not hurt. You know, I was a little banked

0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 2>up at the time, but I'm doing fine now. But

0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 2>it's simply my lived experience that causes a new physical

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.400
<v Speaker 2>manifestation or a new reaction to this environment or a

0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 2>set of circumstances. But that makes sense, you know, I

0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.160
<v Speaker 2>don't have that same experience of what it's like to

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.440
<v Speaker 2>be walking in to be so close, you know, to death, right,

0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.440
<v Speaker 2>and so there's no objective experience of what it's like

0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.080
<v Speaker 2>to be alive. So what's happening in the brain neurologically

0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.520
<v Speaker 2>when people experience psychosomatic symptoms.

0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.680
<v Speaker 3>So it's quite difficult with psychosomatic symptoms to know exactly

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:32.920
<v Speaker 3>what's happening in the brain. When you consider how many

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.120
<v Speaker 3>different kinds of psychosmatic symptoms there are and how many

0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.600
<v Speaker 3>different things can cause them, trying to, you know, compare

0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 3>different brain scans and compare to people who've got wildly

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.600
<v Speaker 3>different symptoms for wildly different reasons is never going to

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.840
<v Speaker 3>get you very far. So there's actually very limited information

0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.760
<v Speaker 3>available about what's actually happening in the brain with the psychosomatic.

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Disorder MRIs or brain scans, they've only really been in

0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.600
<v Speaker 1>regular clinical use for about thirty years or so. That's

0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.719
<v Speaker 1>really young technology wise, and so scientists and doctors are

0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.080
<v Speaker 1>still trying to use them to understand what a typical

0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.920
<v Speaker 1>brain looks like. And so then you have to use

0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.440
<v Speaker 1>that to compare to what's happening in the brains of

0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 1>folks who are experiencing psychosomatic symptoms. Doctor Sullivan explained that

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.800
<v Speaker 1>functional MRIs can help our understanding of functional paralysis, so

0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.760
<v Speaker 1>paralysis caused by an injury or psychosomatic paralysis. She told

0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:25.960
<v Speaker 1>us about a study where they use functional MRI to

0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.959
<v Speaker 1>take images of two groups of people, one group who

0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.200
<v Speaker 1>had psychosomatic paralysis and another group who was asked to

0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.959
<v Speaker 1>pretend to be paralyzed. The functional MRIs showed that there

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.359
<v Speaker 1>were completely different brain activations in the two groups.

0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.360
<v Speaker 2>So that tells you right away that whatever is happening

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.399
<v Speaker 2>in the brain of someone with psychosomatic disorder is not

0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:47.080
<v Speaker 2>the same as pretending.

0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.920
<v Speaker 3>And the other thing that study showed us is that

0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.960
<v Speaker 3>there seems to be a kind of an increased connectivity

0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.560
<v Speaker 3>between the emotional parts of brain and the motor parts

0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.320
<v Speaker 3>of the brain in people who have psychosomatic paralysis. So

0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:05.399
<v Speaker 3>people are somehow rewiring the way their nervous system works

0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.520
<v Speaker 3>to become less efficient. And I think of it like learning.

0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.360
<v Speaker 3>So if I can learn to play tennis well, probably

0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.680
<v Speaker 3>there is someone who could give me bad instructions that

0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.080
<v Speaker 3>can teach me to play tennis badly. We learn motor

0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:25.560
<v Speaker 3>coordination and we learn muscle movements by repetitive actions. We

0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.600
<v Speaker 3>know we can learn to do things efficiently. I think

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.920
<v Speaker 3>we kind of tend to forget that one little change

0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:32.960
<v Speaker 3>to the way we do things could make us less

0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.800
<v Speaker 3>efficient in a motor sense. So I think that changes

0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:42.480
<v Speaker 3>we're seeing in these functional MRI scans probably represent normal movements,

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.119
<v Speaker 3>sort of unlearned so we've learned to do something badly

0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:46.200
<v Speaker 3>instead of something Well.

0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.359
<v Speaker 1>That's really interesting because I think in the past people

0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.560
<v Speaker 1>have dismissed psychosymatic disorders and saying like, well, your brain's

0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.760
<v Speaker 1>not connected, and actually, exactly, it seems like there are

0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.040
<v Speaker 1>some stronger connections or increased connectivity based on what T.

0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Sullivan is saying.

0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.840
<v Speaker 2>It's not a malfunction of your brain. It's not your

0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.480
<v Speaker 2>brain like not working right.

0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.680
<v Speaker 1>It is a rewiring. And it's really interesting that this

0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:15.360
<v Speaker 1>requires even more connectivity than what you would typically expect.

0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.320
<v Speaker 1>And so one of the things that doctor O Sullivan

0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.399
<v Speaker 1>was saying is every connection is basically learning, you know,

0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.679
<v Speaker 1>and we talked about this in some of the earlier episodes.

0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.199
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a good point though, because there are

0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.440
<v Speaker 2>some functions of our bodies that we don't have to

0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.760
<v Speaker 2>think about because of those strong connections, like how our

0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.840
<v Speaker 2>body regulates this temperature, blinking, breathing, our heart rate. Yes,

0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.920
<v Speaker 2>these are all really strong connections that our mind has

0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.880
<v Speaker 2>made over time, like since you know, we had a brain.

0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.800
<v Speaker 1>And there are also these connections to emotions as well.

0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.320
<v Speaker 1>When you're upset, there's a physiological process that happens your

0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.199
<v Speaker 1>body responds and tears come out of your eyes right

0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:55.119
<v Speaker 1>every sack time. Another type of connection, and so you

0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:59.040
<v Speaker 1>see these emotional parts of the brain connected to the

0:19:59.280 --> 0:19:59.920
<v Speaker 1>physical part.

0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.320
<v Speaker 2>I heard that there was some study that when you

0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 2>look at folks pupils, if you say somebody that they love,

0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:08.080
<v Speaker 2>their pupils will get bigger.

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.040
<v Speaker 1>We have to try that. And let me tell you something.

0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:21.399
<v Speaker 1>When I say my name, I'm expecting full dilation. They

0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:22.680
<v Speaker 1>better look like saucers.

0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.440
<v Speaker 2>The whites of my eyes will turn black.

0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:32.240
<v Speaker 1>The whole thing is irin oh man, why do we

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:32.879
<v Speaker 1>have to act like this.

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.120
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll talk

0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:39.720
<v Speaker 2>more about pain, diagnosis and treatment of psychosomatic disorders and

0:20:40.359 --> 0:21:02.800
<v Speaker 2>who's affected the most. We're back and we're talking more

0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.920
<v Speaker 2>about what it means to have a psychosomatic disorder. We're

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.120
<v Speaker 2>trying to understand how the brain processes pain and other stimuli,

0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.640
<v Speaker 2>the route to diagnosis and why it takes so long,

0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.040
<v Speaker 2>and how the framing of psychosomatic symptoms and disorders can

0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.240
<v Speaker 2>affect how people perceive the diagnosis once they get it.

0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.560
<v Speaker 2>We really wanted to talk about pain with doctor O'Sullivan

0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.639
<v Speaker 2>since that's a symptom that many people experience, and it

0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:26.440
<v Speaker 2>can be really hard to diagnose.

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.680
<v Speaker 3>I think pain is the hardest question you could ask.

0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.359
<v Speaker 3>I almost wish you'd ask any other question, because the

0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.440
<v Speaker 3>problem with pain is there, it's subjective, so it is

0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.720
<v Speaker 3>unbelievably hard to study, and it's unbelievably hard to sort

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:46.200
<v Speaker 3>of understand how exactly you know. One person can feel

0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.480
<v Speaker 3>a completely different level of pain to another person. So

0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:51.639
<v Speaker 3>I don't think that I know the absolute answer to

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.240
<v Speaker 3>how we can feel pain in the absence of a

0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.119
<v Speaker 3>truly painful stimulus. It may be that we're feeling the memory,

0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.280
<v Speaker 3>the expectation, the prior of of a pain we've felt before,

0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:06.600
<v Speaker 3>or it may just be that we are stimulating some

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:09.800
<v Speaker 3>sort of sensory response to something that doesn't exist based

0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.200
<v Speaker 3>on our expectations. Clearly, something slightly different is happening in

0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:14.920
<v Speaker 3>the brain. But what's more important to say is that

0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.280
<v Speaker 3>there's no difference. Is that if you have pain, you

0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.240
<v Speaker 3>have pain. Pain is a subjective experience, and if you

0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:20.960
<v Speaker 3>have it, you have it.

0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.280
<v Speaker 2>Are there certain people who are more likely to have

0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:25.920
<v Speaker 2>psychosomatic disorders.

0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:30.119
<v Speaker 3>Anyone can have a psychosomatic disorder, and it really just

0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.159
<v Speaker 3>requires the correct set of sort of triggers to be

0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:35.920
<v Speaker 3>present for that person. But that's not to say that

0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.520
<v Speaker 3>there aren't people who are more vulnerable than other people.

0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:41.760
<v Speaker 3>If you are a tendency to be a worrier, if

0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:44.720
<v Speaker 3>you have a tendency to be anxious, you are a

0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.720
<v Speaker 3>bit more likely to get a psychosomatic disorder. If you've

0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:52.399
<v Speaker 3>been exposed to serious illness, not necessarily personally yourself, but

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.840
<v Speaker 3>within your family or people close to you when you

0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.720
<v Speaker 3>were a child, you're more likely to get psychosomatic disorders.

0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:02.960
<v Speaker 3>So you see it in sports people. You know, in

0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:06.359
<v Speaker 3>sports people who are functioning at a really high level,

0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.520
<v Speaker 3>and they're expected to perform at a high level all

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:14.840
<v Speaker 3>the time, and sometimes that pressure can alter their coordination

0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.520
<v Speaker 3>or how they perceive their bodies and affect their sports performance.

0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:20.879
<v Speaker 2>You know what this reminded me of. This reminded me

0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:24.720
<v Speaker 2>of someone bows pulling out of the Olympics. So she

0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:26.760
<v Speaker 2>pulled out of the Olympics because she was saying that

0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 2>she wanted to check in with herself with her mental health,

0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:33.520
<v Speaker 2>and knowing what doctor O'Sullivan has just told us, it

0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 2>completely makes sense if she's feeling unsure and the pressure

0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.240
<v Speaker 2>is making her feel even more unsure. You know, so

0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.080
<v Speaker 2>when she's running to do that vault and she's throwing

0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:45.440
<v Speaker 2>her body in the air and doing three spins and

0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.240
<v Speaker 2>having the land on her feet, she's putting herself in

0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:52.280
<v Speaker 2>a real dangerous situation where she has to absolutely be confident.

0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:54.760
<v Speaker 2>And so if the pressure is making her question her

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.320
<v Speaker 2>perception of her body and what it can do, the

0:23:57.480 --> 0:23:59.520
<v Speaker 2>right thing to do was to pull herself out. And

0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:01.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, the same is true for Naomi Osaka. She

0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.840
<v Speaker 2>was having some issues. It was like a year ago,

0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:07.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, the pandemic time warp. It's hard for me

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.440
<v Speaker 2>to know, but she was having some issues because she

0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.280
<v Speaker 2>was really struggling with the press and the questions that

0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:16.600
<v Speaker 2>they would ask her, and it was affecting her confidence

0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:18.720
<v Speaker 2>level when she was going into matches. And we see

0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:21.119
<v Speaker 2>it even recently at Indian Wells when she had a

0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:24.200
<v Speaker 2>heckler that kind of threw her off while she was playing.

0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Yes, you told me about that. Yes, all of these things.

0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Totally affect the quality of the work that you're doing.

0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:33.679
<v Speaker 2>And for them it's their sport.

0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:35.320
<v Speaker 1>I know, my job.

0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:37.880
<v Speaker 2>If I'm not feeling myself and I take a mental

0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:40.320
<v Speaker 2>health day or if I decide not to, if I

0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:42.680
<v Speaker 2>try and push through, no one's going to get hurt,

0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:46.160
<v Speaker 2>no one's going to die. But for someone like Simone Biles,

0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:51.400
<v Speaker 2>who is doing really strenuous and dangerous what are those

0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:52.720
<v Speaker 2>things called stunts?

0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, activities.

0:24:56.040 --> 0:25:00.680
<v Speaker 2>Flying to the sky like a bird, there's way more

0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:03.040
<v Speaker 2>that she has to consider. She's talking about her life here,

0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:04.920
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. She said it, she said

0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.720
<v Speaker 2>there's more to life than gymnastics. Her gymnasis career, God

0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:11.359
<v Speaker 2>willing will be a small sliver of her life. This

0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:13.960
<v Speaker 2>is just a small sliver of who she is, and

0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:16.919
<v Speaker 2>we are so proud of her. But she still has

0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:18.920
<v Speaker 2>very many years that she needs to live and we

0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:22.240
<v Speaker 2>want her to be having the highest quality of life possible.

0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.159
<v Speaker 2>And if it means taking a step back to make

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.359
<v Speaker 2>sure she's in the right brain space headspace to be

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:30.920
<v Speaker 2>able to perform at a high level, then that's just

0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:31.680
<v Speaker 2>what she needs to do.

0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:34.240
<v Speaker 1>And like you said, if we get lost in stuff

0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.159
<v Speaker 1>and it's like, oh, what tab was I on? You

0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:38.240
<v Speaker 1>know where was I in this paragraph?

0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:40.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not gonna fall on my neck right.

0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:50.159
<v Speaker 1>Very different. So we understand that there are groups of

0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:55.280
<v Speaker 1>folks who may be more vulnerable to experience in psychosomatic symptoms.

0:25:55.720 --> 0:25:58.560
<v Speaker 1>But what does it take to get to diagnosis? How

0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:00.000
<v Speaker 1>do you identify theo.

0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:05.480
<v Speaker 3>There's a perception that neurologists diagnose psychosomatic conditions because the

0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:09.440
<v Speaker 3>scans are normal, or because we can't find anything else there.

0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.520
<v Speaker 3>When it's presented in that way, it becomes a diagnose

0:26:12.560 --> 0:26:15.639
<v Speaker 3>of dismissal. It sounds a bit like, well, science hasn't

0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:17.400
<v Speaker 3>cut up with it yet, or the scan isn't good

0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:20.080
<v Speaker 3>enough to show it. Actually, that's not how we make

0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:24.760
<v Speaker 3>the diagnosis. We make the diagnosis on positive findings in

0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:30.119
<v Speaker 3>the examination that make this disorder biologically impossible. So our

0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.159
<v Speaker 3>nervous systems are organized in a very intricate way. And

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 3>when you get paralysis in leg due to a muscle problem,

0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:40.040
<v Speaker 3>a brain problem, a spine problem, there's a really specific

0:26:40.119 --> 0:26:43.920
<v Speaker 3>pattern of weakness that fits with biology. But when you

0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:47.480
<v Speaker 3>get a psychosomatic disorder, you get patterns of symptoms that

0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:50.120
<v Speaker 3>do not fit with biology, and you get a completely

0:26:50.160 --> 0:26:54.320
<v Speaker 3>different set of clinical signs. There's no scans or tests involved,

0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:57.520
<v Speaker 3>and that's often what psychosomatic disorders are like. There's a

0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:00.720
<v Speaker 3>specific set of symptoms and patterns of discipl that don't

0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:03.960
<v Speaker 3>fit with biology, and that's why we make the diagnosis.

0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:05.960
<v Speaker 1>One of the things doctor O. Sullivan told us is

0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:09.200
<v Speaker 1>that speed is the key to getting better. The sooner

0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:12.080
<v Speaker 1>you know your symptoms are psychosomatic, the more likely you

0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:13.000
<v Speaker 1>are to get better.

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:17.000
<v Speaker 3>There's lots of studies in seizures where a third of people,

0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:21.560
<v Speaker 3>just by learning that those seizures are psychismatic, spontaneously improve.

0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:26.200
<v Speaker 3>It's just something in that sort of fear anxiety sort

0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:29.800
<v Speaker 3>of cycle has been broken and they inmediately get better.

0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, our medical systems, both here in the US and

0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:38.040
<v Speaker 2>in other countries too, don't lend themselves to speedy diagnosis.

0:27:38.440 --> 0:27:42.440
<v Speaker 1>For any psychosomatic disorder. The average time to diagnosis is

0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:44.800
<v Speaker 1>one year. Now, i'm gonna tell you something that's gonna

0:27:44.800 --> 0:27:48.119
<v Speaker 1>blaw your mind. For psychosomatic seizures, the average time to

0:27:48.200 --> 0:27:50.159
<v Speaker 1>diagnosis is seven years.

0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:55.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. I can't imagine going through something like

0:27:55.440 --> 0:28:00.720
<v Speaker 2>that that's so traumatic, not just emotionally but physically traumatic

0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:04.080
<v Speaker 2>for seven years before getting a diagnosis, and to.

0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Not know what is causing it or what's happening, and

0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:09.920
<v Speaker 1>to just continue experiencing that. I would be sour on

0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:11.040
<v Speaker 1>the whole medical system.

0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:14.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, absolutely, I would feel absolutely failed.

0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:17.800
<v Speaker 3>So I think that doctors need to start elevating this

0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:21.680
<v Speaker 3>diagnosis so that it's given the same level of priority

0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:24.320
<v Speaker 3>as everything else. So it doesn't have to be the

0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:26.640
<v Speaker 3>case that someone comes and sees you and says you've

0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:29.720
<v Speaker 3>got a psychosomatic disorder from the outset. What would be

0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:31.640
<v Speaker 3>better is if they did what they did with every

0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:35.280
<v Speaker 3>other diagnosis. You know, you've got seizures, so they could

0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:38.840
<v Speaker 3>be epilepsy, here's the reasons for and against epilepsy, it

0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:42.160
<v Speaker 3>could be psychosomatic. Here's the reason for and against, and

0:28:42.280 --> 0:28:45.280
<v Speaker 3>you investigate those things in parallel, and then you don't

0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:48.560
<v Speaker 3>just blindside the patient a year later saying I've ruled

0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:51.360
<v Speaker 3>out epilepsy. Now you have the Booby prize that I

0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:54.080
<v Speaker 3>never mentioned at the start. So I think doctors need

0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:56.120
<v Speaker 3>to just give it a make it a diagnos of

0:28:56.200 --> 0:28:58.920
<v Speaker 3>equal standing, and raise it earlier with patients.

0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:01.360
<v Speaker 1>It kind of makes Now, that doesn't make it right.

0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:04.280
<v Speaker 1>But when we think about how our medical system is

0:29:04.280 --> 0:29:07.560
<v Speaker 1>structured with a general physician and then you go see

0:29:07.880 --> 0:29:11.600
<v Speaker 1>XYZ specialists over and over, I can see that taking

0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 1>a really long time. TC.

0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:15.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean you would hope that there's ways that

0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:19.480
<v Speaker 2>we could streamline these processes so that everybody benefits from it.

0:29:19.840 --> 0:29:23.240
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of pitfalls because that's assuming everything goes right.

0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:26.520
<v Speaker 2>That's assuming that you have access to great healthcare, access

0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:30.160
<v Speaker 2>to doctors who care, access to a lot of things

0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:32.520
<v Speaker 2>that you might not have access to depending on your

0:29:32.600 --> 0:29:35.720
<v Speaker 2>level of income, and a lot of socioeconomic factors.

0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:39.160
<v Speaker 1>And it's also assuming that the way your psychosomitic symptoms

0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 1>present stay the same. So I can imagine if you

0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:45.400
<v Speaker 1>went to an ear nosen throat doctor and they checked

0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.920
<v Speaker 1>you and everything was fine, and then you go to

0:29:48.320 --> 0:29:51.719
<v Speaker 1>a neurologist and then you are starting to have symptoms

0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:53.240
<v Speaker 1>that go back to the earos and throat doctor and

0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:54.920
<v Speaker 1>they say, we already checked you, you were fine, And

0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:56.960
<v Speaker 1>are those people even talking like exactly?

0:29:57.520 --> 0:30:00.320
<v Speaker 2>That feels like a medical nightmare, Like doctor O'Sullivan said,

0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>these symptoms they move around, and so they might not

0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:06.160
<v Speaker 2>even be able to catch some of these things when

0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>they're happening. And yes, it's just feel like a wild

0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 2>goose chase.

0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when we really look at the numbers, this is

0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:18.040
<v Speaker 1>more common than folks probably think, right, Doctor Sullivan told

0:30:18.120 --> 0:30:20.800
<v Speaker 1>us that one third of the people coming into neurology

0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:23.000
<v Speaker 1>clinics have a psychosomatic disorder.

0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:25.360
<v Speaker 3>If you can't walk, or you're having seizures, or you're

0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:29.520
<v Speaker 3>unable to work, then you're seriously enough ill to require

0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:32.920
<v Speaker 3>the same speed to treatment as diseases. But I don't

0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:36.400
<v Speaker 3>think people take these disorders seriously enough yet to care

0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:36.800
<v Speaker 3>about that.

0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:39.040
<v Speaker 1>So it really makes you ask what can we do.

0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:43.520
<v Speaker 1>How can we change this process where folks are having

0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:47.280
<v Speaker 1>this long drawn out experience where they're going from provider

0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 1>to provider trying to figure out what's happening. How do

0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:51.080
<v Speaker 1>we raise awareness about this.

0:30:51.560 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 3>We're still waiting to see people running the marathons with

0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:57.760
<v Speaker 3>t shirts that say psychosomatic disorders. Because people care about

0:30:57.880 --> 0:31:01.000
<v Speaker 3>cancers and which they should and other diseases like that.

0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:03.200
<v Speaker 3>We need to start opening our eyes to that and

0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:04.720
<v Speaker 3>create treatment facilities.

0:31:05.000 --> 0:31:08.160
<v Speaker 1>There's not a lot of public awareness around psychosomatic disorders,

0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:11.200
<v Speaker 1>but they affect about one third of people going into

0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 1>neurology clinics.

0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:14.440
<v Speaker 2>I think this is such a good point. We really

0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:16.880
<v Speaker 2>need to dignify this disorder.

0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:17.560
<v Speaker 1>It is real.

0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:21.200
<v Speaker 2>People are really suffering, and I think a lot of

0:31:21.240 --> 0:31:24.120
<v Speaker 2>folks when they hear something like this, they're just like, Oh,

0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:27.960
<v Speaker 2>this person is just out of their mind. But there's

0:31:28.000 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>a spectrum like it affect people in little ways, and

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.640
<v Speaker 2>then it can also affect you in really catastrophic ways.

0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:36.680
<v Speaker 2>These are real physical symptoms that need treatment, and you.

0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:39.240
<v Speaker 1>Really have to ask. Even if you're dismissing somebody and

0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:42.160
<v Speaker 1>saying they're out of their mind, well, your mind tells

0:31:42.200 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 1>you when you step on something sharp, it is your

0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:46.680
<v Speaker 1>mind that tells you that. And so if their mind

0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:48.840
<v Speaker 1>is telling them that they are feeling this physical pain,

0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 1>who's to say, well, I need to see what the

0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:53.080
<v Speaker 1>stimulus is for you to have this.

0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Right exactly, everybody deserves treatment.

0:31:56.320 --> 0:32:00.160
<v Speaker 1>Sad is sad. Pain is pain, regardless of the sem

0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.000
<v Speaker 1>me list that creates it, regardless of the origination. Treat

0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:04.520
<v Speaker 1>the pain. If we can treat it, treat it.

0:32:04.680 --> 0:32:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Treat the pain.

0:32:15.360 --> 0:32:18.600
<v Speaker 1>All right, it's time for one thing, tet, what's your

0:32:18.640 --> 0:32:19.480
<v Speaker 1>one thing this week?

0:32:19.960 --> 0:32:23.520
<v Speaker 2>My one thing this week is an artist. Her name

0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:28.640
<v Speaker 2>is Dominique Brown, and I stumbled upon her work while

0:32:28.760 --> 0:32:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I was at home Goods. So home Goods it treats

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:34.200
<v Speaker 2>me like Target. I went in there looking for a

0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:37.240
<v Speaker 2>coffee table, ended up buying three pieces of art to

0:32:37.360 --> 0:32:39.800
<v Speaker 2>buy this woman. I caught it out the corner of

0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:41.200
<v Speaker 2>my eye and I was like, there's no way I

0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:43.080
<v Speaker 2>can leave here without this art. And I did not

0:32:43.160 --> 0:32:46.080
<v Speaker 2>get a coffee table. Her name is Dominique Brown. Really

0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:49.960
<v Speaker 2>beautiful art that is black woman centric. If you see

0:32:50.000 --> 0:32:52.040
<v Speaker 2>any pictures of my office, you will see her work

0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:55.040
<v Speaker 2>in the background of it. And I really love it.

0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:59.280
<v Speaker 2>And you can also follow her on Instagram at Snoop

0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Doggie Dom and check her artwork out at Home Goods.

0:33:04.000 --> 0:33:06.000
<v Speaker 2>So that's Snoop Doggy Dom.

0:33:06.520 --> 0:33:08.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and you have been very excited, and I must

0:33:08.560 --> 0:33:11.440
<v Speaker 1>say it does look lovely back there. Thank you.

0:33:13.160 --> 0:33:14.040
<v Speaker 2>What's your one thing?

0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:16.840
<v Speaker 1>Well? You know, this weekend my Instagram stories, I was

0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:21.800
<v Speaker 1>asking people to give me book recommendations and I got

0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:23.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of book recommendations. I put them all together

0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:26.560
<v Speaker 1>on one list. But I got a book recommendation from

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:29.040
<v Speaker 1>one of our favorites tt This book I'm going to

0:33:29.120 --> 0:33:31.080
<v Speaker 1>tell you about it is written by a movie critic

0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:34.680
<v Speaker 1>that we both like, Brooke Obi Wow. Obie is a

0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:37.680
<v Speaker 1>strong writer. Anyway. We love all of Obi's stuff and

0:33:37.720 --> 0:33:40.840
<v Speaker 1>we've mentioned her before on the podcast, but one of

0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:42.920
<v Speaker 1>my friends from Hampton said, Hey, did you know that

0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Brooke wrote a book and it's called Book of Attists

0:33:45.840 --> 0:33:48.400
<v Speaker 1>Cradled Embers. So I just started that and that's my

0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:50.160
<v Speaker 1>one thing this week. I'm really enjoying it.

0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, once you finish, give it to me.

0:33:52.640 --> 0:33:56.040
<v Speaker 1>I already know the deal. Put it in the mail.

0:33:56.680 --> 0:34:06.600
<v Speaker 1>We love Brooke. That's it for this lab. Call us

0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:09.200
<v Speaker 1>at two zero two five six seven seven zero two

0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:11.000
<v Speaker 1>eight and tell us what you thought, or give us

0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:12.680
<v Speaker 1>an idea for a different lab you think we should

0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 1>do this semester. We like hearing from you. That's two

0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 1>zero two five six seven seven zero two eight.

0:34:17.920 --> 0:34:20.320
<v Speaker 2>And don't forget that there is so much more to

0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:23.040
<v Speaker 2>dig into on our website. There'll be a cheat cheat

0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:27.040
<v Speaker 2>for today's lab, additional links and resources in the show notes. Plus,

0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:29.160
<v Speaker 2>you can sign up for our newsletter check it out

0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:33.720
<v Speaker 2>at Dope labspodcast dot com. Special thanks to our guest expert,

0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 2>doctor Suzanne O'Sullivan.

0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:39.760
<v Speaker 1>You can find her on Twitter at sus Underscore Osullivan.

0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:43.719
<v Speaker 1>That's su Z Underscore o Sullivan and you can.

0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs Podcast.

0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:50.480
<v Speaker 1>TT's on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho

0:34:50.840 --> 0:34:51.120
<v Speaker 1>and you.

0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Can find Zakia at z said. So Dope Labs is

0:34:54.840 --> 0:34:57.759
<v Speaker 2>a Spotify original production from Mega Own Media Group.

0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:00.759
<v Speaker 1>Our producers are Jenny ratlit Mass and Lydia Smith of

0:35:00.880 --> 0:35:04.239
<v Speaker 1>Wave Runners Studios. Our associate producer from Mega Oh Media

0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:05.200
<v Speaker 1>is Brianna Garrett.

0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:08.920
<v Speaker 2>Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak.

0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:10.120
<v Speaker 1>Mixing by Hannes Brown.

0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex

0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:20.160
<v Speaker 2>Sugier from Spotify. Executive producer Corin Gilliard and creative producer

0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Miguel Contreras.

0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:27.040
<v Speaker 1>Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Yasmine Afifi Kamu, Elolia,

0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Till krat Key and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega

0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh Media Group are us T t show Dia and

0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:34.840
<v Speaker 1>Zakiah Wattley.

0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:49.040
<v Speaker 2>So like, if it wasn't COVID and it was like

0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:52.640
<v Speaker 2>a hair loss pandemic, I might be counting the hairs

0:35:52.680 --> 0:35:56.160
<v Speaker 2>of my waye tooth comb a little bit closer.

0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:58.319
<v Speaker 1>Right, and you would say, did my edges always look

0:35:58.440 --> 0:35:58.600
<v Speaker 1>like this?

0:35:59.560 --> 0:36:00.479
<v Speaker 2>Is this? A wait?

0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:05.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm just saying mind is strong. The mind is strong.

0:36:05.920 --> 0:36:08.480
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's leave my edges out of this conversation.

0:36:08.719 --> 0:36:09.839
<v Speaker 1>Let's move on to something else.

0:36:10.920 --> 0:36:11.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm sensitive