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Speaker 1: You know, t T. I think we can really convince

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Speaker 1: ourselves of a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've convinced myself of a lot of things, Like

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Speaker 2: I'm six foot tall. I am also four foot eleven.

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Speaker 1: Listen, different circumstances require different heights exactly.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm like, how did I have my head on

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Speaker 2: this doorframe? Right? I'm six foot I'm not six foot.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I think if the past year has

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Speaker 1: taught me anything. My friends used to tell me that

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Speaker 1: I was a hypochondriac, and I said, Oh, they're just

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Speaker 1: throwing that word around. They don't really mean that. But

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Speaker 1: the mind body connection, when I get it in my mind,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh I might be sick. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm failing. I'm not well, even if I was having

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Speaker 1: those symptoms before. As soon as I decided in my brain,

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Speaker 1: I've fallen into a dcline like it's a rap. And

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Speaker 1: I think we really need to explore that a little

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Speaker 1: bit more. That mind body connection underrated. I'm TT and

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Speaker 1: I'm Zakiyah and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Dope Labs. We're a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,

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Speaker 1: pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship.

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Speaker 2: This week, we're talking about how the mind and the

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Speaker 2: body intersect. Specifically, we really wanted to know more about

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Speaker 2: the mind's ability to affect how we feel, whether that's

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Speaker 2: better or worse.

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Speaker 1: You may have heard the term psychosomatic before.

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Speaker 2: I've heard it on TV, you know, like on medical dramas,

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Speaker 2: but I've never really been sure about the actual definition.

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Speaker 1: Well, it means something that involves both the mind and

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Speaker 1: the body. So literally the word pairs the Greek words,

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Speaker 1: which means of the mind, with soma, which means of

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Speaker 1: the body.

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Speaker 2: And today we're going to talk about just how connected

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Speaker 2: those two things really are, all right, T T. I

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Speaker 2: think I know what you're gonna say. I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: Let's kick off the recitation. I think the thing that

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Speaker 1: we all know is that our minds are very strong.

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Speaker 1: Our minds are like the central hub for our bodies.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes we can't trust these minds absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I know my mind has definitely played tricks on me,

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Speaker 2: and I can think of a few times your mind

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Speaker 2: has played tricks on you. There have been a few

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Speaker 2: bugs that I've been asked to dispose of, and they

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Speaker 2: were a lot smaller than what you had originally said

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Speaker 2: that they were.

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Speaker 1: I have a mind of scale, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: able to easily scale. Now, some people might think that's positive, okay.

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Speaker 2: And so one of the ways that our mind can

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Speaker 2: positively affect us is the placebo effect, right. So I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of people have heard of the placebo effect,

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Speaker 2: and it's usually associated with drug trials where they might

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Speaker 2: be testing out a drug and then they give a

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Speaker 2: certain group of people a placebo, so just a sugar

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Speaker 2: pill instead of the actual drug. And if the people

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Speaker 2: are aware of what the effects of the drug should be,

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Speaker 2: their mind might trick them into saying that they do

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Speaker 2: feel those effects. Yeah, And I've also heard of hypochondria,

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Speaker 2: So I think that's a term that people use a lot,

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Speaker 2: but I don't really know the difference between yes, being

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Speaker 2: a hypochondriac or you know, other things.

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Speaker 1: And then I think the other question I have is

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Speaker 1: around psychosomatic disorders and symptoms. When we say what do

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Speaker 1: all these things have in common? I think for me,

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Speaker 1: it's the connection of the mind and the body absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And then that leads us to our overarching question for

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Speaker 1: this episode, which is, how does the mind have control

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Speaker 1: over the matter? You know, the body those are some

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Speaker 1: very good questions and I cannot wait to hear the

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Speaker 1: answers for today's dissection. Our guest expert is doctor Susanne O'Sullivan.

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Speaker 3: My name is Susan O. Sullivan. I am a consultant

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Speaker 3: neurologist and clinical neurophysiologist based at the National Hospital for

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Speaker 3: Neurology in London.

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Speaker 2: We just want to have a greater understanding of what's

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Speaker 2: happening in this mind body connection.

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Speaker 1: We've reached out to doctor O'Sullivan on our quests to

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Speaker 1: really understand how aware is too aware. So when you're

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Speaker 1: paying attention to your body, is that good? Or can

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Speaker 1: you venture into this area where you're paying too much

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Speaker 1: attention and then your mind is playing tricks on you?

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Speaker 1: And I think that was our starting point. The mind.

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Speaker 3: The first thing to say is that our mind is

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Speaker 3: constantly altering our physical sort of experience of the world

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Speaker 3: and our experience of our own bodies. So the mind

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Speaker 3: body interaction is much greater, I think than most people realize.

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Speaker 2: Our brain is constantly making assessments. Our brains are never resting.

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Speaker 2: It's not just as simple as oh I touched this

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Speaker 2: hot stove out, let me pull my hand away. It's

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Speaker 2: also taking memories from the past stored in your mind

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Speaker 2: to inform your body's reaction.

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Speaker 1: A good example of this is how we sometimes react

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Speaker 1: in anticipation of something. So if you've ever said our

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Speaker 1: winced before you even got hurt, or like you know,

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Speaker 1: you always stub your toe on that side of the bed,

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Speaker 1: it's because our brains are working so fast and processing

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Speaker 1: so many things that it's just automatically giving you that

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Speaker 1: signal you're about to get hurt or you are hurt. Actually,

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Speaker 1: and if you took the time to acknowledge every single

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Speaker 1: thing your brain is processing, we probably wouldn't even make

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Speaker 1: it out a bit.

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Speaker 2: So, now that we have a baseline for understanding how

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Speaker 2: the mind operates under typical circumstances, let's talk about what's

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Speaker 2: happening when certain processes in the mind are stronger, louder,

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Speaker 2: and more prominent.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a good point what you said about

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Speaker 1: understand the typical circumstance, because I think we take for

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Speaker 1: granted that in all physical disease there's a mental component. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: if I break my ankle and it inhibits my mobility,

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Speaker 1: depending on how it feels to me that my subjective

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Speaker 1: experience that could be really devastating, that could lead to

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Speaker 1: depression other things. There's a mental component to every physical disease.

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Speaker 1: I think would you agree with.

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Speaker 2: That absolutely, because I mean, using the same like break

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Speaker 2: your ankle situation, your brain starts to tell your body, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you need to lean more on if it's your right angle,

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Speaker 2: lean more on your left hand. Yes, So you start

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Speaker 2: to compensate for whatever that injury is. Like we've all

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Speaker 2: been there with different things. Your brain is making all

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Speaker 2: of these corrections in the presence of these injuries.

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Speaker 1: And I think over the past couple of years, this

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Speaker 1: is something that we've really come to understand more and

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Speaker 1: accept more, both in the medical field and in the

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Speaker 1: general population. People see how stress can exist to ascerbate

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Speaker 1: other physical factors.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yes, when we all started working from home,

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Speaker 2: like when the lockdown was really in place, I think

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Speaker 2: we all started to feel that stress.

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Speaker 1: And I think something we've been interested in and what

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Speaker 1: we want to explore with doctor O'Sullivan is what are

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Speaker 1: some of the other ways that the mind can control

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Speaker 1: the body. And we see something that is a new

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Speaker 1: physical symptom that is completely controlled by the mind or

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Speaker 1: completely driven by the mind, and I think that's what

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Speaker 1: basically psychosomatic disorders are.

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Speaker 2: It really makes me start to think a lot more so,

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Speaker 2: what are some other ways that the brain can produce

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Speaker 2: or manifest a physical symptom or something that isn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: linked to it. I really want to know the actual definition,

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Speaker 2: like what falls under the umbrella of psychosomatic disorder?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what does it mean?

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Speaker 3: So that means real physical symptoms. And I'm really emphasizing

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Speaker 3: the word real because I think people when they hear

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Speaker 3: psychosomatic they start thinking imaginary. But these are real physical

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Speaker 3: symptoms that are for psychological reasons. I'm going to qualify

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Speaker 3: the word psychological a little bit there, because again people

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Speaker 3: think psychological means madness, insanity of some sort. You know,

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Speaker 3: when I'm using the term psychological, I'm really talking about

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Speaker 3: all the different functions of the mind, not necessarily pertaining

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Speaker 3: to a psychiatric illness, for example.

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Speaker 1: So there are psychosomatic symptoms, and you get these different

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Speaker 1: symptoms within a psychosomatic disorder, But what about hypochondria. How

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Speaker 1: is that related to psychosomatic disorders.

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Speaker 3: It's not to say they're not related at all, but

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Speaker 3: they are different phenomenon psychosomatic symptoms are physical symptoms with

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Speaker 3: or without psychological distress. Hypochondria is psychological distress, probably without

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Speaker 3: any actual physical symptoms. So their predominant experience really is

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Speaker 3: the anxiety, and the thing that's disabling them is anxiety

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Speaker 3: about illness.

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Speaker 1: So these almost feel like opposites, right, because hypochondria is

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Speaker 1: sheer psychological distress but no actual physical manifestation. It may

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Speaker 1: be anxiety or anxiety about illness, but with no physical symptoms.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, it seems like psychosomatic disorders

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Speaker 1: present with these physical symptoms.

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Speaker 2: What kind of symptoms do they have? Do psychosomatic disorders

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Speaker 2: always present themselves in the same way.

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Speaker 3: Every physical symptom you can imagine can be produced through

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Speaker 3: psychological mechanisms, so the symptom can be anything, And I

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Speaker 3: find the symptom is often determined either from their personal

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Speaker 3: experience or their knowledge base, or as a result of

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Speaker 3: a specific thing that's happened to them. And therefore all

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Speaker 3: of these sort of psychosomatic symptoms are drawn usually from

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Speaker 3: our environments.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this makes a lot of sense, especially

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Speaker 1: when we think about COVID nineteen. When you think back

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Speaker 1: to the early days, I'm talking March and April of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty. We didn't know what was going on.

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Speaker 2: Those were crazy times, yes, and people were just saying,

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Speaker 2: are you experiencing shortness of breath?

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Speaker 1: Are you having chest pain? I was like, maybe I

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Speaker 1: was double checking everything.

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Speaker 2: I would run up the steps and be like, am

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Speaker 2: I usually this winded? I don't think so. And so

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Speaker 2: then I was making myself nervous.

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Speaker 1: And I was checking my temperature with the back of

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Speaker 1: my hand, and I would say to myself, boiling hot,

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Speaker 1: you definitely have a fever.

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Speaker 2: But you had just gotten off the bike.

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Speaker 1: But then I would get my thermometer and it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: even say ninety eight point six. So clearly my mind

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Speaker 1: was telling me something different than what was really going on.

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Speaker 2: Similar things were happening with me because it was allergy season,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm coughing because I have allergies and sneezing

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Speaker 2: and I'm having issues because I also have asthma and

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Speaker 2: using inhaler, and so I was just like, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what's linked to what. I couldn't focus and figure

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Speaker 2: out if this was just my mind playing tricks on

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Speaker 2: me and these are just my allergy symptoms, or if

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Speaker 2: you know COVID had got me.

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Speaker 1: Did your allergies always feel like that?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? I was like calling in the question. Literally, everything are.

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Speaker 1: Usually based in something that you've experienced. So we were

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Speaker 1: all aware and experiencing a respiratory virus that was sweeping

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Speaker 1: across the globe. So everybody's thinking about their breathing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you can imagine if it wasn't confined to the

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Speaker 1: respiratory system and it was related to something else, like.

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Speaker 2: A hair loss pandemic, I would be counting all of

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Speaker 2: the hairs in my white tooth comb a little bit closer.

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Speaker 1: Yes, every straight hair would be a cause for panic.

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Speaker 2: Every hair matters.

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Speaker 1: The interesting part that doctor os Sullivan was saying is

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Speaker 1: that it usually starts with an actual disease. So if

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Speaker 1: you've had some bad bout of like gastro enteritis. What

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Speaker 1: is gastro enteritis? I've never heard of that. You might

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Speaker 1: not have heard of it, but you might have experienced

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Speaker 1: it if you drink contaminated food or water. Some people

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Speaker 1: call it the stomach flu.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes, it is awful.

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Speaker 1: Upset stomach okay.

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Speaker 2: Upset stomach diarrhea, yeahpops.

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Speaker 1: No commercial. But I've always been more of a fan

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Speaker 1: of Kopec tape.

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Speaker 2: My friend is choosing Okay, I think we've all been there.

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Speaker 1: So if you had a bad about of gastro enteritis,

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Speaker 1: you're already focused on your stomach, so your psychosomatic symptoms

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Speaker 1: could manifest around the gut. But interestingly, that's not where

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Speaker 1: they always manifest. Doctor O'suliva says, you know, you could

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Speaker 1: start with the gut because that's what you're familiar with,

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Speaker 1: But there's also a possibility that you have symptoms that

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Speaker 1: kind of move around the body too.

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Speaker 3: But then once a person is prone to these disorders,

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Speaker 3: one characteristic of them is that they tend to move around.

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Speaker 3: So people are particularly badly affected by this will often

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Speaker 3: have come to me with a list of diagnoses, you know,

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Speaker 3: and these will be young people because it's often to

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Speaker 3: sort of young people. You might see someone who's twenty

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Speaker 3: years old and they walk in the door and they've

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Speaker 3: got ten separate diagnoses because they are someone who has

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Speaker 3: a tendency to express themselves through physical symptoms and that

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Speaker 3: moves around their body of putting to what's happening in

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Speaker 3: their lives.

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Speaker 2: What I want to understand is, like, how how does

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Speaker 2: the mind create physical symptoms without a specific biological trigger.

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Speaker 1: We ask doctor O Sullivan to walk us through how

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Speaker 1: this really works, this circuitry of stimulus and response and risk.

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Speaker 3: Even so, I think the most important thing to know

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Speaker 3: in this question is about a thing called top down processing.

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Speaker 3: So I think a lot of people sort of have

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Speaker 3: the kind of concept that you're you're looking at something

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Speaker 3: and you're almost recording it, like a camera or a

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Speaker 3: video recorder or something that you're just soaking up information.

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Speaker 3: And when you learn about neurology as a neurologist or

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Speaker 3: as a biologist, you learn about you know, this is

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Speaker 3: where the nerves begin and they travel up through the body,

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Speaker 3: and it makes it sound very electrical. It makes it

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Speaker 3: sound like a light switch or something, but it's not

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Speaker 3: like that. What's actually happening is that as a sensory

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Speaker 3: stimulus is entering, be it a visual stimulus or a

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Speaker 3: sensation or a sound, it is being compared by top

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Speaker 3: down processing to priors and expectations that you have stored

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Speaker 3: in your brain. So we have all these expectations stored

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Speaker 3: in our brains, and when we look at something, as

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Speaker 3: the information is entering from below, it's also being processed

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Speaker 3: from above and compared with our expectations.

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Speaker 1: Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think we're about to say the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Doctor rober Wiley here from Lab thirty. Yes, yes, doctor Wiley,

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Speaker 2: that's right. Doctor Wiley talked about this type of dual

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Speaker 2: processing in Lab thirty. We call it science sale delivered.

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Speaker 2: Our brain creates shortcuts while we're reading this.

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Speaker 1: Is while you know. It really is all about our

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Speaker 1: brains and their previous experiences and expectations.

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Speaker 3: You know, there are lots of kind of thought experiments

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Speaker 3: you can use that will show to people how easy

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Speaker 3: it is to derail your body. So you know, if

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Speaker 3: I ask somebody to walk on a narrow line on

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Speaker 3: the road, you know most of us could do it

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Speaker 3: with no difficulty. If I asked you to walk exactly

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Speaker 3: the same line on the edge of the cliff or

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Speaker 3: the top of a high wall or something, it changes

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Speaker 3: the way you think about your body, and your entire

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Speaker 3: coordination has now been changed. And I've done nothing but

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Speaker 3: changed your position.

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Speaker 2: I actually had this happen to me, So me and

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Speaker 2: my husband went on a really long hike for our honeymoon,

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Speaker 2: don't ask about it, and I fell pretty far at

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Speaker 2: one point, it was very traumatizing because I was very scared.

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Speaker 2: I thought I was going to die. So I went

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Speaker 2: from being surefooted so like not even really paying attention

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Speaker 2: to how I walk or what I was doing, so

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Speaker 2: feeling like every step that I took could be the

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Speaker 2: end of my life. So now even if I'm walking

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Speaker 2: on like a tall curb, I'm shaking. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's going on. I'm like, this is a little bit

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Speaker 2: high up off the ground, and I'm not sure if

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Speaker 2: I can make it. Yeah, So I'm not injured and

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Speaker 2: I'm not hurt. You know, I was a little banked

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Speaker 2: up at the time, but I'm doing fine now. But

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Speaker 2: it's simply my lived experience that causes a new physical

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Speaker 2: manifestation or a new reaction to this environment or a

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Speaker 2: set of circumstances. But that makes sense, you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't have that same experience of what it's like to

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Speaker 2: be walking in to be so close, you know, to death, right,

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Speaker 2: and so there's no objective experience of what it's like

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Speaker 2: to be alive. So what's happening in the brain neurologically

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Speaker 2: when people experience psychosomatic symptoms.

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Speaker 3: So it's quite difficult with psychosomatic symptoms to know exactly

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Speaker 3: what's happening in the brain. When you consider how many

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Speaker 3: different kinds of psychosmatic symptoms there are and how many

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Speaker 3: different things can cause them, trying to, you know, compare

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Speaker 3: different brain scans and compare to people who've got wildly

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Speaker 3: different symptoms for wildly different reasons is never going to

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Speaker 3: get you very far. So there's actually very limited information

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Speaker 3: available about what's actually happening in the brain with the psychosomatic.

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Speaker 1: Disorder MRIs or brain scans, they've only really been in

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Speaker 1: regular clinical use for about thirty years or so. That's

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Speaker 1: really young technology wise, and so scientists and doctors are

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Speaker 1: still trying to use them to understand what a typical

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Speaker 1: brain looks like. And so then you have to use

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Speaker 1: that to compare to what's happening in the brains of

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Speaker 1: folks who are experiencing psychosomatic symptoms. Doctor Sullivan explained that

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Speaker 1: functional MRIs can help our understanding of functional paralysis, so

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Speaker 1: paralysis caused by an injury or psychosomatic paralysis. She told

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Speaker 1: us about a study where they use functional MRI to

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Speaker 1: take images of two groups of people, one group who

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Speaker 1: had psychosomatic paralysis and another group who was asked to

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Speaker 1: pretend to be paralyzed. The functional MRIs showed that there

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Speaker 1: were completely different brain activations in the two groups.

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Speaker 2: So that tells you right away that whatever is happening

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Speaker 2: in the brain of someone with psychosomatic disorder is not

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Speaker 2: the same as pretending.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing that study showed us is that

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Speaker 3: there seems to be a kind of an increased connectivity

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Speaker 3: between the emotional parts of brain and the motor parts

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Speaker 3: of the brain in people who have psychosomatic paralysis. So

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Speaker 3: people are somehow rewiring the way their nervous system works

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Speaker 3: to become less efficient. And I think of it like learning.

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Speaker 3: So if I can learn to play tennis well, probably

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Speaker 3: there is someone who could give me bad instructions that

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Speaker 3: can teach me to play tennis badly. We learn motor

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Speaker 3: coordination and we learn muscle movements by repetitive actions. We

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Speaker 3: know we can learn to do things efficiently. I think

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Speaker 3: we kind of tend to forget that one little change

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Speaker 3: to the way we do things could make us less

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Speaker 3: efficient in a motor sense. So I think that changes

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Speaker 3: we're seeing in these functional MRI scans probably represent normal movements,

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Speaker 3: sort of unlearned so we've learned to do something badly

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Speaker 3: instead of something Well.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting because I think in the past people

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Speaker 1: have dismissed psychosymatic disorders and saying like, well, your brain's

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Speaker 1: not connected, and actually, exactly, it seems like there are

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Speaker 1: some stronger connections or increased connectivity based on what T.

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Speaker 1: Sullivan is saying.

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Speaker 2: It's not a malfunction of your brain. It's not your

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Speaker 2: brain like not working right.

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Speaker 1: It is a rewiring. And it's really interesting that this

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Speaker 1: requires even more connectivity than what you would typically expect.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the things that doctor O Sullivan

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Speaker 1: was saying is every connection is basically learning, you know,

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Speaker 1: and we talked about this in some of the earlier episodes.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a good point though, because there are

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Speaker 2: some functions of our bodies that we don't have to

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Speaker 2: think about because of those strong connections, like how our

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Speaker 2: body regulates this temperature, blinking, breathing, our heart rate. Yes,

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Speaker 2: these are all really strong connections that our mind has

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Speaker 2: made over time, like since you know, we had a brain.

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Speaker 1: And there are also these connections to emotions as well.

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Speaker 1: When you're upset, there's a physiological process that happens your

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Speaker 1: body responds and tears come out of your eyes right

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Speaker 1: every sack time. Another type of connection, and so you

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Speaker 1: see these emotional parts of the brain connected to the

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Speaker 1: physical part.

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Speaker 2: I heard that there was some study that when you

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Speaker 2: look at folks pupils, if you say somebody that they love,

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Speaker 2: their pupils will get bigger.

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Speaker 1: We have to try that. And let me tell you something.

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Speaker 1: When I say my name, I'm expecting full dilation. They

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Speaker 1: better look like saucers.

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Speaker 2: The whites of my eyes will turn black.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing is irin oh man, why do we

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Speaker 1: have to act like this.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll talk

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Speaker 2: more about pain, diagnosis and treatment of psychosomatic disorders and

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Speaker 2: who's affected the most. We're back and we're talking more

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Speaker 2: about what it means to have a psychosomatic disorder. We're

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Speaker 2: trying to understand how the brain processes pain and other stimuli,

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Speaker 2: the route to diagnosis and why it takes so long,

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Speaker 2: and how the framing of psychosomatic symptoms and disorders can

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Speaker 2: affect how people perceive the diagnosis once they get it.

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Speaker 2: We really wanted to talk about pain with doctor O'Sullivan

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Speaker 2: since that's a symptom that many people experience, and it

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Speaker 2: can be really hard to diagnose.

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Speaker 3: I think pain is the hardest question you could ask.

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Speaker 3: I almost wish you'd ask any other question, because the

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Speaker 3: problem with pain is there, it's subjective, so it is

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Speaker 3: unbelievably hard to study, and it's unbelievably hard to sort

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Speaker 3: of understand how exactly you know. One person can feel

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Speaker 3: a completely different level of pain to another person. So

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Speaker 3: I don't think that I know the absolute answer to

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Speaker 3: how we can feel pain in the absence of a

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Speaker 3: truly painful stimulus. It may be that we're feeling the memory,

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Speaker 3: the expectation, the prior of of a pain we've felt before,

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Speaker 3: or it may just be that we are stimulating some

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Speaker 3: sort of sensory response to something that doesn't exist based

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Speaker 3: on our expectations. Clearly, something slightly different is happening in

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Speaker 3: the brain. But what's more important to say is that

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Speaker 3: there's no difference. Is that if you have pain, you

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Speaker 3: have pain. Pain is a subjective experience, and if you

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Speaker 3: have it, you have it.

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Speaker 2: Are there certain people who are more likely to have

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Speaker 2: psychosomatic disorders.

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Speaker 3: Anyone can have a psychosomatic disorder, and it really just

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Speaker 3: requires the correct set of sort of triggers to be

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Speaker 3: present for that person. But that's not to say that

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Speaker 3: there aren't people who are more vulnerable than other people.

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Speaker 3: If you are a tendency to be a worrier, if

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Speaker 3: you have a tendency to be anxious, you are a

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Speaker 3: bit more likely to get a psychosomatic disorder. If you've

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Speaker 3: been exposed to serious illness, not necessarily personally yourself, but

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Speaker 3: within your family or people close to you when you

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Speaker 3: were a child, you're more likely to get psychosomatic disorders.

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Speaker 3: So you see it in sports people. You know, in

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Speaker 3: sports people who are functioning at a really high level,

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Speaker 3: and they're expected to perform at a high level all

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Speaker 3: the time, and sometimes that pressure can alter their coordination

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Speaker 3: or how they perceive their bodies and affect their sports performance.

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Speaker 2: You know what this reminded me of. This reminded me

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Speaker 2: of someone bows pulling out of the Olympics. So she

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Speaker 2: pulled out of the Olympics because she was saying that

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Speaker 2: she wanted to check in with herself with her mental health,

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Speaker 2: and knowing what doctor O'Sullivan has just told us, it

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Speaker 2: completely makes sense if she's feeling unsure and the pressure

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Speaker 2: is making her feel even more unsure. You know, so

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Speaker 2: when she's running to do that vault and she's throwing

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Speaker 2: her body in the air and doing three spins and

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Speaker 2: having the land on her feet, she's putting herself in

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Speaker 2: a real dangerous situation where she has to absolutely be confident.

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Speaker 2: And so if the pressure is making her question her

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Speaker 2: perception of her body and what it can do, the

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Speaker 2: right thing to do was to pull herself out. And

439
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: you know, the same is true for Naomi Osaka. She

440
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: was having some issues. It was like a year ago,

441
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: you know, the pandemic time warp. It's hard for me

442
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 2: to know, but she was having some issues because she

443
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: was really struggling with the press and the questions that

444
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: they would ask her, and it was affecting her confidence

445
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: level when she was going into matches. And we see

446
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: it even recently at Indian Wells when she had a

447
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 2: heckler that kind of threw her off while she was playing.

448
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 1: Yes, you told me about that. Yes, all of these things.

449
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: Totally affect the quality of the work that you're doing.

450
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 2: And for them it's their sport.

451
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: I know, my job.

452
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: If I'm not feeling myself and I take a mental

453
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: health day or if I decide not to, if I

454
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: try and push through, no one's going to get hurt,

455
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 2: no one's going to die. But for someone like Simone Biles,

456
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: who is doing really strenuous and dangerous what are those

457
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: things called stunts?

458
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, activities.

459
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 2: Flying to the sky like a bird, there's way more

460
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: that she has to consider. She's talking about her life here,

461
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. She said it, she said

462
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: there's more to life than gymnastics. Her gymnasis career, God

463
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: willing will be a small sliver of her life. This

464
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: is just a small sliver of who she is, and

465
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 2: we are so proud of her. But she still has

466
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: very many years that she needs to live and we

467
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: want her to be having the highest quality of life possible.

468
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 2: And if it means taking a step back to make

469
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: sure she's in the right brain space headspace to be

470
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: able to perform at a high level, then that's just

471
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 2: what she needs to do.

472
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: And like you said, if we get lost in stuff

473
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, what tab was I on? You

474
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: know where was I in this paragraph?

475
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna fall on my neck right.

476
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: Very different. So we understand that there are groups of

477
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: folks who may be more vulnerable to experience in psychosomatic symptoms.

478
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: But what does it take to get to diagnosis? How

479
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: do you identify theo.

480
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: There's a perception that neurologists diagnose psychosomatic conditions because the

481
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: scans are normal, or because we can't find anything else there.

482
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: When it's presented in that way, it becomes a diagnose

483
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: of dismissal. It sounds a bit like, well, science hasn't

484
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 3: cut up with it yet, or the scan isn't good

485
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: enough to show it. Actually, that's not how we make

486
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: the diagnosis. We make the diagnosis on positive findings in

487
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 3: the examination that make this disorder biologically impossible. So our

488
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 3: nervous systems are organized in a very intricate way. And

489
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: when you get paralysis in leg due to a muscle problem,

490
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 3: a brain problem, a spine problem, there's a really specific

491
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 3: pattern of weakness that fits with biology. But when you

492
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 3: get a psychosomatic disorder, you get patterns of symptoms that

493
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 3: do not fit with biology, and you get a completely

494
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: different set of clinical signs. There's no scans or tests involved,

495
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 3: and that's often what psychosomatic disorders are like. There's a

496
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: specific set of symptoms and patterns of discipl that don't

497
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: fit with biology, and that's why we make the diagnosis.

498
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: One of the things doctor O. Sullivan told us is

499
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: that speed is the key to getting better. The sooner

500
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: you know your symptoms are psychosomatic, the more likely you

501
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: are to get better.

502
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: There's lots of studies in seizures where a third of people,

503
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: just by learning that those seizures are psychismatic, spontaneously improve.

504
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 3: It's just something in that sort of fear anxiety sort

505
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: of cycle has been broken and they inmediately get better.

506
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, our medical systems, both here in the US and

507
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: in other countries too, don't lend themselves to speedy diagnosis.

508
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: For any psychosomatic disorder. The average time to diagnosis is

509
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: one year. Now, i'm gonna tell you something that's gonna

510
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: blaw your mind. For psychosomatic seizures, the average time to

511
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: diagnosis is seven years.

512
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I can't imagine going through something like

513
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 2: that that's so traumatic, not just emotionally but physically traumatic

514
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: for seven years before getting a diagnosis, and to.

515
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: Not know what is causing it or what's happening, and

516
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: to just continue experiencing that. I would be sour on

517
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: the whole medical system.

518
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: Okay, absolutely, I would feel absolutely failed.

519
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: So I think that doctors need to start elevating this

520
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 3: diagnosis so that it's given the same level of priority

521
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: as everything else. So it doesn't have to be the

522
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 3: case that someone comes and sees you and says you've

523
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 3: got a psychosomatic disorder from the outset. What would be

524
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 3: better is if they did what they did with every

525
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 3: other diagnosis. You know, you've got seizures, so they could

526
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: be epilepsy, here's the reasons for and against epilepsy, it

527
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 3: could be psychosomatic. Here's the reason for and against, and

528
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: you investigate those things in parallel, and then you don't

529
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: just blindside the patient a year later saying I've ruled

530
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: out epilepsy. Now you have the Booby prize that I

531
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 3: never mentioned at the start. So I think doctors need

532
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: to just give it a make it a diagnos of

533
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 3: equal standing, and raise it earlier with patients.

534
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: It kind of makes Now, that doesn't make it right.

535
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: But when we think about how our medical system is

536
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: structured with a general physician and then you go see

537
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: XYZ specialists over and over, I can see that taking

538
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: a really long time. TC.

539
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you would hope that there's ways that

540
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: we could streamline these processes so that everybody benefits from it.

541
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: There's a lot of pitfalls because that's assuming everything goes right.

542
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: That's assuming that you have access to great healthcare, access

543
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: to doctors who care, access to a lot of things

544
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: that you might not have access to depending on your

545
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: level of income, and a lot of socioeconomic factors.

546
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: And it's also assuming that the way your psychosomitic symptoms

547
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: present stay the same. So I can imagine if you

548
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: went to an ear nosen throat doctor and they checked

549
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: you and everything was fine, and then you go to

550
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 1: a neurologist and then you are starting to have symptoms

551
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: that go back to the earos and throat doctor and

552
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: they say, we already checked you, you were fine, And

553
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: are those people even talking like exactly?

554
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: That feels like a medical nightmare, Like doctor O'Sullivan said,

555
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: these symptoms they move around, and so they might not

556
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: even be able to catch some of these things when

557
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: they're happening. And yes, it's just feel like a wild

558
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 2: goose chase.

559
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, when we really look at the numbers, this is

560
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: more common than folks probably think, right, Doctor Sullivan told

561
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: us that one third of the people coming into neurology

562
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: clinics have a psychosomatic disorder.

563
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: If you can't walk, or you're having seizures, or you're

564
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: unable to work, then you're seriously enough ill to require

565
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: the same speed to treatment as diseases. But I don't

566
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 3: think people take these disorders seriously enough yet to care

567
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: about that.

568
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: So it really makes you ask what can we do.

569
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: How can we change this process where folks are having

570
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: this long drawn out experience where they're going from provider

571
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: to provider trying to figure out what's happening. How do

572
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: we raise awareness about this.

573
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: We're still waiting to see people running the marathons with

574
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: t shirts that say psychosomatic disorders. Because people care about

575
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: cancers and which they should and other diseases like that.

576
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 3: We need to start opening our eyes to that and

577
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: create treatment facilities.

578
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of public awareness around psychosomatic disorders,

579
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: but they affect about one third of people going into

580
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: neurology clinics.

581
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: I think this is such a good point. We really

582
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: need to dignify this disorder.

583
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: It is real.

584
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: People are really suffering, and I think a lot of

585
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: folks when they hear something like this, they're just like, Oh,

586
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: this person is just out of their mind. But there's

587
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: a spectrum like it affect people in little ways, and

588
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: then it can also affect you in really catastrophic ways.

589
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: These are real physical symptoms that need treatment, and you.

590
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: Really have to ask. Even if you're dismissing somebody and

591
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: saying they're out of their mind, well, your mind tells

592
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: you when you step on something sharp, it is your

593
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: mind that tells you that. And so if their mind

594
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: is telling them that they are feeling this physical pain,

595
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: who's to say, well, I need to see what the

596
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: stimulus is for you to have this.

597
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: Right exactly, everybody deserves treatment.

598
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: Sad is sad. Pain is pain, regardless of the sem

599
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: me list that creates it, regardless of the origination. Treat

600
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: the pain. If we can treat it, treat it.

601
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: Treat the pain.

602
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: All right, it's time for one thing, tet, what's your

603
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: one thing this week?

604
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: My one thing this week is an artist. Her name

605
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: is Dominique Brown, and I stumbled upon her work while

606
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: I was at home Goods. So home Goods it treats

607
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: me like Target. I went in there looking for a

608
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: coffee table, ended up buying three pieces of art to

609
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: buy this woman. I caught it out the corner of

610
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: my eye and I was like, there's no way I

611
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: can leave here without this art. And I did not

612
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: get a coffee table. Her name is Dominique Brown. Really

613
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: beautiful art that is black woman centric. If you see

614
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: any pictures of my office, you will see her work

615
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: in the background of it. And I really love it.

616
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: And you can also follow her on Instagram at Snoop

617
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: Doggie Dom and check her artwork out at Home Goods.

618
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: So that's Snoop Doggy Dom.

619
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: Yes, and you have been very excited, and I must

620
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: say it does look lovely back there. Thank you.

621
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: What's your one thing?

622
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: Well? You know, this weekend my Instagram stories, I was

623
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: asking people to give me book recommendations and I got

624
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: a lot of book recommendations. I put them all together

625
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: on one list. But I got a book recommendation from

626
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: one of our favorites tt This book I'm going to

627
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: tell you about it is written by a movie critic

628
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: that we both like, Brooke Obi Wow. Obie is a

629
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: strong writer. Anyway. We love all of Obi's stuff and

630
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: we've mentioned her before on the podcast, but one of

631
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: my friends from Hampton said, Hey, did you know that

632
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 1: Brooke wrote a book and it's called Book of Attists

633
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: Cradled Embers. So I just started that and that's my

634
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: one thing this week. I'm really enjoying it.

635
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: Okay, once you finish, give it to me.

636
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: I already know the deal. Put it in the mail.

637
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: We love Brooke. That's it for this lab. Call us

638
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: at two zero two five six seven seven zero two

639
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: eight and tell us what you thought, or give us

640
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: an idea for a different lab you think we should

641
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: do this semester. We like hearing from you. That's two

642
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: zero two five six seven seven zero two eight.

643
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 2: And don't forget that there is so much more to

644
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: dig into on our website. There'll be a cheat cheat

645
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: for today's lab, additional links and resources in the show notes. Plus,

646
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: you can sign up for our newsletter check it out

647
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 2: at Dope labspodcast dot com. Special thanks to our guest expert,

648
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: doctor Suzanne O'Sullivan.

649
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 1: You can find her on Twitter at sus Underscore Osullivan.

650
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: That's su Z Underscore o Sullivan and you can.

651
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: Find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs Podcast.

652
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: TT's on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho

653
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: and you.

654
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 2: Can find Zakia at z said. So Dope Labs is

655
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: a Spotify original production from Mega Own Media Group.

656
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: Our producers are Jenny ratlit Mass and Lydia Smith of

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00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: Wave Runners Studios. Our associate producer from Mega Oh Media

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Speaker 1: is Brianna Garrett.

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Speaker 2: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak.

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Speaker 1: Mixing by Hannes Brown.

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Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex

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Speaker 2: Sugier from Spotify. Executive producer Corin Gilliard and creative producer

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Speaker 2: Miguel Contreras.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Yasmine Afifi Kamu, Elolia,

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Speaker 1: Till krat Key and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega

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Speaker 1: Oh Media Group are us T t show Dia and

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Speaker 1: Zakiah Wattley.

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Speaker 2: So like, if it wasn't COVID and it was like

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Speaker 2: a hair loss pandemic, I might be counting the hairs

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Speaker 2: of my waye tooth comb a little bit closer.

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Speaker 1: Right, and you would say, did my edges always look

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Speaker 1: like this?

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Speaker 2: Is this? A wait?

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying mind is strong. The mind is strong.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's leave my edges out of this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Let's move on to something else.

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Speaker 2: I'm sensitive