1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: Revels is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone, 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: We welcome to Rivals, the show about music, beefs and 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve, I'm Jordan's. 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: Today we're gonna talk about Neil Young and Leonard Skinner. 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: There's a lot to unpack here because it's so easy 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: to mischaracterize this few because it makes me such a 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: great story, you know. I mean, there's a hippie from Canada, 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: that land of draft Dodgers and socialized healthcare. He's waging 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: a war of words with loud and proud rebels from 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: the American South. It's it's such a good like you know, 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: black and white feud, but the truth is a lot murkier. 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: It's a lot grayer, you know. I'm reminded of that 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: quote from Kanye West. Love your haters, they're your biggest fans. 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: I think in this case there's some truth to that. 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, Neo and Leonard skinnerd we're friendly rivals who 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: became figureheads for two really opposing demographics, but the personal 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: relationships were pretty civil, you know. Yeah, I mean, from me, 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: this rivalry is the defining example of something I wrote 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: about in my book about music beefs, your favorite band 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: is killing Me, which is how people take pop cultural 21 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: rivalries and then plant them with their own meanings, Like 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: you're right about how Neil Young loved Leonard skinnerd and 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: Ronnie van Zandt, who wrote the lyrics to Sweet Home Alabama, 24 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: which is a song we're gonna be talking about a 25 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: lot in this episode. He was a huge Neil Young fan. 26 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: I mean, Ronnie VanZant tragically died in a plane crash, 27 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: of course, and he was buried in a Neil Young 28 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: Tonight's to Night t shirt. That's how big of a 29 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: fan he was. But this story, as you said, it's 30 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: so perfectly suited for the ongoing culture war in this 31 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: country that it's easy to reduce these guys down to 32 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: convenient stereotypes. If you're conservative, you can cheer for Leonard Skinnered. 33 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: If you're liberal, you can cheer for Neil Young, And 34 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: like so many things in this country, it turns into 35 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: this simplistic binary that obscures a story that I think 36 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: is a lot more nuanced than complicated, and ultimately more 37 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: interesting than maybe it's given credit for. So I'm really 38 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: excited to dive into this. So let's get into this mess. 39 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: So the I hesitately even called a few the The 40 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: disagreement stems from Neil Young's song Southern Man, which is 41 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: a track on his vent album After the gold Rush. Brilliant, Oh, 42 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: incredible record, Incredible song. It equates the South sort of 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: racist pass with contemporary attitudes, and which Neil at that 44 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: point felt hadn't really progressed much since the Civil War. 45 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: He he sings, Southern change gonna come at last. Now 46 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: your crosses are burning fast, Southern Man. I saw cotton 47 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: and I saw black, tall, white mansions and little shacks. 48 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: Southern Man, When will you pay them back? I heard 49 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: screaming and Bulwick's cracking. How long? How long? Pretty inflammatory 50 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: lyrics there. He had a um liner notes on his 51 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 1: anthology album Decade. He described the song as uh could 52 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: have been written on a civil rights march after stopping 53 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: off to watch Gone with the Wind at a local theater. 54 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: But I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure. 55 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: Great typical cryptic Neil. Yeah, Yeah, I've got to say 56 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: I love the album After the gold Rush. I'm a 57 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: huge Neil Young fan. The song Southern Man is not 58 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: my favorite Neil Young track. I remember I read an 59 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: interview with Randy Newman once where he talked about this song, 60 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: and he said that for him, Neil Young's political songs 61 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: with me the exception of Ohio are not his favorite 62 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: because he feels like Neil doesn't know enough basically, which 63 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: is kind of a a condescenating thing to say about 64 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: Neil Young, but I think ultimately it's true. I mean 65 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: because especially for someone like Randy Newman, who's this very 66 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: sort of you know, smart satirists, wrote so many great songs, 67 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: especially about the American South, like the album Yeah, the 68 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: song right next one, the album Good Old Boys, it's 69 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: all about that. It's a much more sophisticated look at 70 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: the culture than I think Southern Man is um because 71 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: something it is like a strong man song, and it's 72 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: very broad talking about the South just being this healthscape 73 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: of racism. And it's funny to me because like Neil 74 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: Young was living in Los Angeles at this time, and 75 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: like there were a lot of riots in Los Angeles 76 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: around you know, in the late sixties as well. I mean, 77 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: like Los Angeles is not a city that like has 78 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: exactly there's there's been racism all over the country, including 79 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. He could have called it California man if 80 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: you wanted to, you know, but it was easier to 81 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: project that onto Southern man. And I think Neil really 82 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: went too far in this regard when he wrote the 83 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: song Alabama, which is a track from the record Harvest, 84 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: which is the record after After the Gold Rush again, Harvest, 85 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: brilliant record, Hard of Gold, Old Man Needle, the Damage done, 86 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: so many classic songs on that record. But in Alabama, 87 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: he's writing about the South is basically again, like this 88 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: healthscape of racism where the Ku Klux Klan is just 89 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: terrorizing black people. You know, in every town, every Southern 90 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: person is like this. And I feel like the attitude 91 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: that Neil takes in that song is this sort of condescending, liberal, 92 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: paternalistic attitude that I think sometimes Northerners take towards people 93 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: in the South, like hey, this is your problem, you know, 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: what's your deal? Why why can't you deal with it? 95 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: When really it's like maybe you should do with your 96 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: own issues and look in the mirror here like this 97 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: is maybe you're projecting the issues that exist everywhere onto 98 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: this group of people a little too much. And I 99 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: feel like that ultimately was the spark that caused Ronnie 100 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: Van's Aunt to react the way that he did. Right. 101 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: I mean, he he hears Neil's songs. He's a big 102 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: Neil young fan. He hears these songs, and he he's 103 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: not thrilled, and he's not actually from Alabama's native and Jacksonville, Florida, 104 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: but but he's holding fast to his Southern roots. And 105 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: the band had recorded in their early career on the 106 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Muscle Soul studios and play gigs along the Golf coast, 107 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: so they they had a lot of fun memories of Alabama. 108 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: And he thought that Neil's criticism was, you know, a 109 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: gross generalization that really wasn't that far off from the 110 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: bigotry that Neil was supposedly criticizing in his music. You know. 111 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: From Ronnie's point of view, he felt that Neil was 112 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: lumping in good, honest people with klansmen, and that the 113 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: comparison between slave owners and modern Southern men Southern men 114 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: was really unfair. I think Ronnie gave an interview to 115 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: Rolling Stone in nine five, and he said, we thought 116 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: Neil was shooting all the ducks in order to kill 117 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: one or two we're Southern rebels. But more than that, 118 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: we know the difference between right and wrong. So he 119 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: responded with the song the kid rock sampled exactly and 120 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: it's horrible. That's another That's just one piece of baggage 121 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: of many pieces of baggage that have been attached to 122 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Leonard skinnerd over the past, you know, forty years. Uh, 123 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, sweet Home Alabama is now the kid 124 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: rock song. Unfortunately for a new generation of people. Yeah, 125 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like Leonard skinnered and you know, 126 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,559 Speaker 1: they are now this caricature of like a Southern rock band. 127 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: They're essentially like the house band for the Republican National 128 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: Convention now, and I feel like people are so used 129 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: to looking at them in a certain way, especially since, 130 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, in the seventies they unapologetically flew the Confederate 131 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: flag and that remained a part of their shows for 132 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: a long time. And obviously no one's going to defend 133 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: the Confederate flag now. But I think that when it 134 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: comes to what the band was like when Ronnie van 135 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: Zant was alive, and I think the song Sweet Home 136 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: Alabama specifically, you know, I feel like as much as 137 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: Ronnie van Zant rebelled against Neil Young lumping all Southerners 138 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: into this sort of like racist caricature. I feel like 139 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: Ronnie van Zant himself has been the victim of that 140 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: after he died. That when we think about Leonard Skinner, 141 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: which was a band that you know, Ronnie was the 142 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: focal point of, yeah, we just think of them as 143 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: being the sort of reactionary right wing band, and Sweet 144 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: Home Alabama becomes a rallying cry for a lot of 145 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: the people who support that caricature of Leonard Skinner um 146 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: And as that song pertains to Neil Young, of course, 147 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: the famous line in the song is well I heard 148 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: Mr Young sing about her her referring to the South. Uh, well, 149 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: I heard O'Neil putter down. Well, I hope Neil Young 150 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: will remember a Southern man don't need him around anyhow. 151 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: So if you just look at that song at face value, 152 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: it's like, what the Southern guy sticking it to the 153 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: northern liberal right. I mean, it's like, yes, we're gonna 154 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: rise again, We're gonna stick it to these people who 155 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: are judging us. But the reality is is that, like 156 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: as much as he was annoyed by what Neil Young wrote, 157 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: in those songs. I mean, he was still a Neil 158 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: Young fan, and he also I think had his tongue 159 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: in cheek more than like people now give him credit for. 160 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: I read an interview that he did with Cameron Crowe 161 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: in the mid seventies and he called it a joke song. 162 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: And there's that line of the song where they talk 163 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: about George Wallace, you know, George Wallace as the governor. 164 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people hear that part 165 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: of the song and they think it's like an endorsement 166 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: of George Wallace. But right after he says that, there's 167 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: that boo boo boo backing vocal, which I feel like 168 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: was intended. It's sort of like an ironic stab, like 169 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: we're not actually endorsing George Wallace. We think this guy's 170 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: a boza, but this, you know, we're sort of having 171 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: fun with this idea of like the Southern caricature that 172 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: Neil Young was singing about exactly. I mean, well, George 173 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: Wallace important to know, you know, noted segregationist, famously stood 174 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: on awful man. You know, segregation, uh now, segregation tomorrow, 175 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: segregation forever. History is not look kindly upon this man. 176 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: It's fair to say so. The boo hoo hoo part 177 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: has been it's funny. It's been embraced by both sides. 178 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: For liberals listening to the song, they think that's sort 179 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: of the part that's undercutting the Birmingham, we love the 180 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: Governor part. And then there's still people on the more 181 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: conservative side who think that the it's boo hoo hoo, 182 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: as in like a mocking take of liberals protesting him, 183 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: like oh wow, you know you don't like him too bad. 184 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: So it's it's funny how it's such an ink plot 185 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: test for just you know, one line in a song, 186 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: all these different takes on it. I mean, don't you. 187 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: I mean, what's your take on this song? I mean, 188 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: because there's the lyrics part of it, which I think 189 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: is problematic for a lot of people. But also I 190 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: think adds another dimension to this song is that musically, 191 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: I feel like pretty and arguably like it kicks ass, 192 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: Like this is a kick ass song, like the Lick 193 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: comes on. It has a great groove too. I think 194 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: I think musically it takes Southern Man to the cleaners. 195 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a much better song on 196 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: Southern Man, and I think even Neil Young quickly conceded that, 197 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: as we'll get to later in this episode, it's such 198 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: a good time party song, but then it has these 199 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: lyrical elements that it reminds me in a way of 200 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: the Merle Haggard song Okay from Skokie, which is I 201 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: think a similar song where I think le Haggard wrote 202 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: that as like a satirical song about Southern rednecks, but 203 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: like Southern rednecks also embraced it at face value, and 204 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: it's always had this dual life and how people talk 205 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: about it. What are your feelings about Sweet Home Alabama? 206 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that band members have have taken 207 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: different stances on it over the years. I think Ronnie 208 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: van Zand because not only is the lyricist, but he 209 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of time to change his outlook 210 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: on the song because he only died I think three 211 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: years later, he said that, you know, the lyrics about 212 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: the governor of Alabama were misunderstood, he said in an 213 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 1: interview I think was the Rolling Stone interview in the 214 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: general public didn't notice the words boo boo boo after 215 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: that particular line, and the media picked up only on 216 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: the reference of people loving the governor. Uh. He later 217 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: said that Wallace and I have very little in common. 218 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: I don't like what he says about black people. Um. 219 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: There was a Showtime documentary about Leonard Skinner a couple 220 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: of years ago, and Gary Rossington made a similar statement. 221 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: He said, you know, there's a lot of different interpretations. 222 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure if he asked the other guys who are 223 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: not with us anymore that are up in rock and roll, Evan, 224 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: they'd have a different version of the story. But you know, 225 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 1: it's satire. That seems to be the general consensus of 226 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: that that the song is nuance satire. Like you said, 227 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: that is um. Using Birmingham as the city that they're 228 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: actually referencing the song is really interesting too, because Birmingham 229 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: famously didn't love the governor. They they actually didn't vote 230 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: for him, and I think Wallace tried to withhold funds 231 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: for a high way that was being built through the 232 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: town for years. So even just knowing a little bit 233 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: of the backstory, like the history of Birmingham, if that's 234 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: a very telling city that they chose to use in 235 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: that song. Well, and you made this observation in our 236 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: in our notes for this episode, and I thought it 237 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: was a pretty smart comparison, calling back to our Billy 238 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: Corgan Stephen Malkmus episode and the song range Life, that 239 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: Pavement song about you know, dissing Smashing Pumpkins essentially, and 240 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: how Stephen Milk was when he wrote that song. It 241 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: was sort of like this tossed off, jokey song that 242 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: he probably didn't anticipate becoming as much of a flashpoint 243 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: as it did. And you made the comparison between that 244 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: song and Sweetholme Alabama, which I think kind of makes sense. 245 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: I wondered to what degree they knew that this was 246 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: going to become such a rock anthem. I mean, obviously 247 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: they didn't know that at the time. I mean Leonard 248 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: Skinner was still like a like a relatively young band. 249 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: They put out their first record in seventy three, pronounced 250 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: Leonard SKINNERD, which I think it's like one of the 251 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: great rock debuts of all time. Pretty awesome record. Free 252 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: Birds on their Simple Man, lots of hits, and then 253 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: Second Helping was their second record, and in a way, 254 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: sweet on Me Alabama, it seems like a flukey hit, 255 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, like there really wasn't I think an expectation 256 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: that Leonard Skinner was going to have pop hits, but 257 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: I think this song it just captured the zeitgeist in 258 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: a way that like they probably didn't really anticipate, right 259 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: in the same way that Malcolm's wrote that line about 260 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: smashing pumpkins in the studio basically to make the other 261 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: bandmates laugh. That's a Van van Zante later said about 262 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: the new Young stuff. He said, you know that's they said. 263 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: We laughed like hell, He said, isn't that funny? We 264 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: love Neil Young, we love his music. We think he'll 265 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: be in on the joke, you know where even hears this, 266 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: which is kind of iffy because at that point the 267 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: debut album peaked at like number twenty seven or something. 268 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: I mean, they were like, you know, a C list 269 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: Almond Brothers, right, Like, they weren't exactly blowing up the 270 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: charts here, and I I mean I think they were. 271 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: I think they were better regarded than that. I mean, 272 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: I mean they were opening like for The Who, and 273 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: like they had some and I think people like that 274 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: first record. But you know, it's one thing to be 275 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: like a good time southern rock band, and it's another 276 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: to like actually have like a top ten hit and 277 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: if you look at like what else was on the 278 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: charts at that time. I mean, there's not a whole 279 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: lot of precedents for like sweet I saw like Sweet Home, 280 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: Alabama having that kind of success. I mean the Almond Brothers, um, 281 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, I think had some hits, like from the 282 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: Brothers and Sisters record, which was before that, but um, 283 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: And there was some tension I think ultimately between Skinner 284 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: and Almond Brothers because the Allman Brothers were always this 285 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: more progressive band um, whereas Skinner and I think leaned 286 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: more into the good old boy image and flew the flag. 287 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: I mean it flew the Confederate flag. I mean the 288 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: Almer Brothers never did that, but Leonard Skinner did. And 289 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's so interesting to me. Ronnie van 290 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: Zanna is really interesting character because the Confederate flag stuff 291 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: is so weird to me that he would propagate that. 292 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I really think that at the time that 293 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: was maybe looked at as this like sort of rebellious thing, 294 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, like we're sort of sticking it to like 295 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: the larger system by by flying this flag. I think 296 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: that was maybe the rationalization for it, which that kind 297 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: of makes sense in like the context of his worldview 298 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: because like he was like a progressive guy, like he 299 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: can he campaigned for Jimmy Carter. He wrote a gun 300 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: control song called Saturday Night Special, which is really interesting 301 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: when you look at and we'll get into that like 302 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: Leonard Skinner's later history, you know, like where I wonder 303 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: if they changed the lyrics to that song, like when 304 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: they performed it after Ronnie died, because they definitely we're 305 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: not pro gun control later on in their career. I mean, again, 306 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: I think this speaks to what we were talking about 307 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: before about how if you want to reduce these players 308 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: into sort of simplistic binaries, it's really hard. I mean 309 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: I think it's I think Leonard Skinner's a complicated band 310 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: and was Neil Young in a lot of ways, and 311 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: they had a really complicated relationship to flying that flag. 312 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: Even back in the seventies, there were interviews Ronnie gave her. 313 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: He was saying, oh, yeah, that was m c A 314 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: the record company's idea to kind of have us do that. Uh, 315 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: and so he kind of even at the time, try 316 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: to distance himself from it. I think too. Now what's 317 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: interesting to me is that, like, Okay, Leonard Skinner. They 318 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: put out the song Sweet Home Alabama. I guess we 319 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: can call it a disc track. You know, it's sort 320 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: of a it's calling out Neil Young, and like Neil 321 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: Young essentially agrees with Leonard Skinners. I mean, he doesn't 322 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: fire back. He actually feels like they have a point, 323 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: and he goes on to sort of dismiss his own songs. Yeah, 324 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: oh yeah, in later years, I think it was Southern man. 325 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: He he wrote in his memoir he said Alabama richly deserved. 326 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: No sorry, it was the song Alabama, he said, Alabama 327 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: richly deserved the shot Leonard Skinner gave me with their 328 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: great record. I don't like my words when I listened 329 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: to it today. Their accusatory and condescending, not fully thought out, 330 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: too easy to misconstrue basically what Randy Newman's right. And 331 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: it's just interesting to me that like Neil Young like 332 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: took it that way because uh, you would think, but 333 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it really speaks to like what 334 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: kind of person Neil Young is too that like he 335 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't just be a reactionary and say, well, I'm going 336 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: to write a song about how Leonard Skinner it sucks 337 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm gonna put it on on the beach 338 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: um And it was almost like he like learned a 339 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: lesson from from Ronnie van Zan. Yeah, he probably appreciated 340 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: that sense of like, you know, playing his own game 341 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: and well being that direct lyrically he probably Yeah, no, 342 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: I can't think of anybody else he would have, like, 343 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: you know, done that to him, aside from maybe like 344 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: Crosbie or Still. And then you know, I feel like 345 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: when Neil Young was so cool about it, I mean 346 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: that just endeared Runnie van Zen even more to him, right, 347 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: I mean, because like we said, he was like a 348 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: huge Neil Young fan, and when he saw it that 349 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: Neil Young didn't get pissed at him, it was like, 350 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: oh wow, this guy's even cooler than I thought it was. 351 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you see all those concerts in like the 352 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: middle late seventies, is wearing the Tonight's the Night shirt. 353 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the Street Survivor cover, 354 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: he's wearing his favorite Tonight's the Night Neil Young shirt. Yeah. 355 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean, like, and he gave a bunch of interviews 356 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: to like where he was talking. I mean it seemed 357 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: like he took great pains to tell journalists in the 358 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: moment that like, I actually love Neil Young. I'm not 359 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: mad at Neil Young. You know, I'm not propagating this 360 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: as you know, some sort of North versus South battle, 361 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: because I mean there's so many quotes right like where 362 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: he's talking about like how much he loves Neil Young. 363 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: Neil Young is amazing, wonderful, a superstar, you know what 364 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: I mean. That's not exactly fighting words, right, So, like 365 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 1: as you said, like running van ZANDT they end up 366 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: making the album Street Survivors. That's the last Leonard Skinnet 367 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: record with the original lineup. But yeah, and he's wearing 368 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 1: a Neil Young shirt on the cover of that record. 369 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: And then sadly he tragically dies in nineteen seventy seven 370 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: and like one of the most famous plane crashes and 371 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: rock history. And didn't you Young like play sweet Home 372 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: Alabama as a tribute like after he died. Yeah, he 373 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: was playing I think his song Alabama, and then he 374 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: he weaved in sweet Home Alabama in in tribute. And 375 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: I don't think he ever played the song Alabama again 376 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: after that night. I think that was the last time. 377 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: I remember too, Like when I was writing my book, 378 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: um about this rivalry. I think I looked up Southern Man, uh, 379 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: just going through playlists, and I feel like he doesn't 380 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: play that song very much either anymore, um, which is 381 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: kind of a surprise because that's still like one of 382 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: the big songs that you hear by Neil Young on 383 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: the radio, because it was like a pretty big I 384 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: think FM radio hit at the time, and it's like 385 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: one of the classic rock staples I think for Neil Young, Um, 386 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: but he doesn't played either, and I just wonder like, 387 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: would he have come to that realization without Sweet Home Alabama, 388 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: you know? Or was did it take like this great 389 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: rock song to kind of put New in his place 390 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: and decide that you didn't want to play that anymore? 391 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: I yeah, I don't know. I think that I think 392 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: he probably would have come to that realization on his 393 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: own too. I feel like, you know, as his writing 394 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: developed and he got more nuanced in his worldviewing in 395 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: his lyrics, I think that, well, actually, you know what, 396 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: I started thinking of songs you wrote in later years, 397 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: like Let's Impeach the President not exactly nuanced in his lyrics, 398 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: So maybe not. Maybe you're right, maybe he needed that 399 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: song to really show him that it was a really 400 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: reductive worldview because there's the other part of Sweet Home, 401 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: Alabama too, where he's talk about they're talking about Watergate, 402 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: which I always thought was such a really smart way 403 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: of being like, Okay, if you're going to show the 404 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: South at our worst, then let's talk about you. Let's 405 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: talk about the North and what's going on up there. 406 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: I'm talking about you guys that you're worst right now too. 407 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: So it was really such a smart song. All right hand, 408 00:20:48,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more rivals. You know. One 409 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: story I love too about these guys. I don't know 410 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: if this is true. Have you heard that story about 411 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: powder Finger? Oh? Yeah, yeah, Cameron Crowe I think confirmed it. Yeah, 412 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: that he wrote powder Finger for Lennard Skinners. Who was 413 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: the deal there? Like did he actually try to get 414 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: the song to them? Or I mean, like was he 415 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: like like was he calling Ronnie up? He's like, Hey, 416 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: I just wrote this amazing song and I want you 417 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: to play it. I think Cameron Crow said that he 418 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: was the go between that that Neil gave Cameron a 419 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: cassette tape of some demos. Powder Finger was the big 420 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: one Sedan delivery from Russ never Sleeps and Captain Kennedy, 421 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: which was I think on what Hawks and Doves thinking 422 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: Hawks and Doves was also on it, and he basically 423 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: wanted Cameron to give the tape to Ronnie for consideration 424 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 1: for songs record for the next Skinners album or there 425 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: was also a rumor that uh Ronnie van Zent was 426 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: working on a solo album too, right before he died, 427 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: like very very early, and maybe those would have been 428 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: considered for a solo album too, but that I don't 429 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: think that's ever been, you know, confirmed. But can you 430 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: imagine if Skinner did powder Finger? I know, and that 431 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: would have been such a cool bookend to the to 432 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: the Sweet Home Alabama story because you know, when I 433 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: look at these two again, when you look at the 434 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: broader implications of like what this what this song is, 435 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: and like what these two people represent, you know, there's 436 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: the reality of like what was going on between the 437 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: two artists, which you know, it's funny because like on 438 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: our show, we usually talk about people that have like 439 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: long running beefs where there's like a lot going on 440 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: between them. You know, they're they're sniping at each other, 441 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 1: They're like doing mean Instagram post about each other. They're like, 442 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, writing songs about each other growing shoes sometimes, yeah, 443 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: but like that never really happened with these guys. There 444 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: was just you know, Neil Young road a couple of 445 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: songs and Ronnie van Zandt wasn't a fan, so then 446 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: he wrote an answer record to it, and then it 447 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 1: kind of ended in a way like they you know, 448 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: deal could have perpetuated it, but he's like, no, this 449 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: the song that you wrote, sweet Home Alabama. It's an 450 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: incredible song. I think even said at one point that like, 451 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: I'd rather play Sweet Home Alabama than Southern Man. I 452 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: mean that from Neil and Young, that is a hellll 453 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: of a compliment, you know. So and then you have 454 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: Ronnie van Zandt going in the press and just just 455 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: talking up Neil Young about how much he loves Neil Young, 456 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: wearing Neil Young shirts on album covers, then putting a 457 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: Neil Young shirt in his own casket, making it perfectly 458 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: clear that like for the people involved, there's not really 459 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: any conflict. But then there's like another reality that's going 460 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: on outside the band, the cultural reality. And you know, 461 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: we talked about how sweet Home, Sweet Home Alabama ends 462 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: up becoming this huge pop hit, and I don't think 463 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: you can downplay the significance of like people from the 464 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: South latching onto that song as an anthem and latching 465 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: on to it specifically because they feel like it's sticking 466 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: it to people from outside the South who look down 467 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: on them, which is kind of like a long running 468 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: thing I think in Southern culture, this sort of chip 469 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: on the shoulder that like people look down on us, 470 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: they don't respect us, and we have to strike back somehow, 471 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: we have to kind of put people in their place. 472 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: And Sweetel in Alabama, it's like such a great song 473 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: for that, like if if that is how you already feel. 474 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: And as Leonard Skinner goes on and we talked about this, 475 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: like you know, Ronnie van Zant died in along with 476 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: other members of the band, totally changed the look and 477 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: sound of that band, and you feel, like Leonard Skinner, 478 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: at some point, they kind of go from being this 479 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: band that is articulating something about the South that is complicated, 480 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: but it's nuance and it's interesting and it has space 481 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: for Southern pride but also critiques of the South in 482 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 1: some way, to being something very simplistic and lacking more 483 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: into this sort of the binary every relationship that we 484 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: have in this country between north and south, liberal and conservative, 485 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: and really playing up the culture War part of it 486 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: and circling back the powder Finger. It just makes me think, 487 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: like what if Ronnie Vanzan had lived and they could 488 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: have had this reunion doing powder Finger and showing that 489 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: maybe we don't have to have these binaries, you know, 490 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: like we can actually kind of get along and figure 491 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: out a way to be friends and to put our 492 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: differences aside. I'm not saying that would have cured the 493 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: Culture War or anything, but it would have been an 494 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: interesting development, I think, and it would have made it 495 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: harder for people to kind of break this down into 496 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: component parts where it's two forces against each other. Because 497 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: to me, that's the most fascinating thing about this is 498 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: that it is that the reality of the actual rivalry. 499 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: There's really not a rivalry, but there is a rivalry 500 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: because of what we've all projected onto it over the years. Right, 501 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: I mean, become Alabama just as a slogan. The last 502 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: couple of decades, especially, every ounce of nuance has just 503 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: been squeezed out of this song. You know. It's like 504 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: up there with Springsteen is Born in the USA and 505 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: and even Neil's rocking in the Free World is just 506 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: like being embraced at face value as this like full 507 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: throated celebration of the South. You know, I think it's 508 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: on the Alabama license plate sweet Hum Alabama at this point, 509 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: you know, like where if you listen to the song 510 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: as something that's more satirical or even just more you know, 511 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: even handed, I'm not sure if that's necessarily something you 512 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: want on your state license plates, you know, right, or yeah, 513 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: if you want to take into account where Ronnie Van's 514 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: ant was coming from a kind of guy who wasn't 515 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: even from Alabama, you know that in a way, I 516 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: think he's adopting the voice of a character in that song, um, 517 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: which is another sort of interesting layer that complicates what 518 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: that song means. Um. But again, like sometimes it doesn't 519 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: matter what the songwriter intended, and I feel like to 520 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: like with Skinnered, it becomes obscured because well, first of all, 521 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: when Ronnie died, is the new front man of that 522 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: band ends up being his younger brother, Johnny van Zante, who, 523 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: with apologies that any Leonard Skinnered fans out there, I 524 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: think he's a dullard. I think Johnny van Zante ruined 525 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 1: Leonard Skinner and he was the big driving force. I 526 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: think it's sort of simplifying and dumbing down this band. Um. 527 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: And you know, I like I've seen interviews with with 528 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: with with Johnny where he speculated about his brother about 529 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: like like, how do you think Ronnie VanZant would vote 530 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: if he were still alive today? And being asked this 531 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: like twenty or thirty years after his brother died, and 532 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: of course he says that his brother would probably vote 533 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: Republican because he votes Republican. And he feels like, well, 534 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: that's probably what my brother would do. To um, and 535 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: maybe that that may very well be true. You know, 536 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to waite into the potential politics of 537 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: a person who has been deceased for several decades, but um, 538 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: it's always like a sad thing with Skinner, and I 539 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: feel like, I don't know, like, are you a drive 540 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: by Trucker's fan? I im I need to get deeper 541 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: into them. But I do love Southern Rock Opera because 542 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: I feel like that record was the first time, I 543 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: think in a long time where people were able to 544 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: talk about Leonard skinnerd in a more sort of again 545 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: nuanced way, and I feel like for people of my generation, 546 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: like that record had a lot to do with I 547 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: guess we claiming the original spirit of Leonard Skinner because 548 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: like when I was growing up, I mean, they were 549 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: just the epitome of like a redneck rock band, right, 550 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: I mean, like, do you remember your first encounter with them? Oh? Yeah, 551 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean it was it was Sweet Home, Alabama, and 552 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: it was you know, I think it was using like 553 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: a KFC ad or something like that. Like, no, I 554 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: remember definitely just taking it at face value until it's 555 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: really was just learning of their actual supposed friendship through 556 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: the song. The song I'm thinking of is Ronnie and 557 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: Neil incredible song. Incredible song that kind of like just 558 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: mythologizes in this really amazing way their their their relationship. Yeah, 559 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: it's a Patterson hood song, and he and Patterson in 560 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: that song, he's like trying to sort of I think 561 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: I can clear up this misconception that I think was 562 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: much more um widespread at the time that that record 563 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: came out, which was two thousand one. You know, I 564 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: think people did forget that Neil and Ronnie were friends 565 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: or that or that they were friendly at least and 566 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: he's writing about this mutual appreciation that they had because 567 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: I think for for someone like Patterson Hood who grew up, 568 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, in the South, and I think was living 569 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: in Georgia at the time that that record was made. Uh, 570 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: I think he probably felt like he was kind of 571 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: stuck between those two poles. That he liked Ronnie van 572 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: Zandt as a symbol of like strong Southern masculine pride, 573 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: but then he also loved Neil Young and the more 574 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: sort of progressive sensitivity that he signified. Um. But yeah, 575 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: there's that great song on that record called the Three 576 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: Alabama the Three Great Alabama Icons, and uh, yeah, that 577 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: that really kind of like drives home. It's the mythology 578 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: of it. But I think they also get ad a 579 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: lot of truth. There's that line where he goes, like, now, 580 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: Ronnie van Zandt wasn't from Alabama, he was from Florida, 581 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: which is true. He was a huge Neil Young fan. 582 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,239 Speaker 1: But in the tradition of mill Hager writing Oki from 583 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: Muskoky to tell his dad's point of view about the 584 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: hippies in Vietnam, Ronnie felt that the other side of 585 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: the story needed to be told. Neil Young always claimed 586 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,479 Speaker 1: that Sweet Home Alabama was one of his favorite songs, 587 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: and legend has it that he was an honorary pallbearer 588 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: at Ronnie's funeral, which I don't think that's true. I 589 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: wish it was. I know, I feel like they wouldn't 590 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: have let Neil Young near that funeral right now. I 591 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: think there were probably like a lot of good old 592 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: boys who did not like Neil Young in nineteen seventy seven. Uh. 593 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,479 Speaker 1: And then he says, and then there's the line that 594 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: Patterson has the great line about the duality of the 595 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: Southern thing, which is like, you know, the sort of 596 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: like the nutgraph of that record, the duality which again 597 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: I think is embodied by Ronnie Vanz and Neil Young. 598 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: You know, these two people that appear to be opposites 599 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: that the culture is pinning against each other as archetypes 600 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: of the North and the South and liberals and conservatives 601 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: and talking about how they're really connected, and um, we 602 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: don't really talk about people like that anymore. We talk 603 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: about people being against each other but not being connected. 604 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: And I feel like those those two guys are, um, 605 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: are such great symbols of that. But you know, as 606 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: much as we're talking about Skinner being misunderstood. You know, 607 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: we've kind of hit on this before. I mean, I 608 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: feel like Skinners had a lot to do themselves with 609 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: the band being misunderstood by how they I think perverted 610 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: the band's legacy. After Ronnie vans and died, right there 611 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: was this really weird thing. Band member Ed King had 612 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: a blog post in two thousand nine. We basically walked 613 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: back essentially everything Ronnie ever said about Sweet Home Alabama. Uh. 614 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: Ed says, it's not us going boo it's what the 615 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: Southern man. Here's the northern man say. Every time the 616 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: Southern man say in Birmingham, we love the governor. So 617 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: he's saying that the booze were the northern people, you know, 618 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: coming out against us. Get right, and he it goes 619 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: on and says, we did all that we could do 620 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: to get Wallace elected. It's not a popular opinion, but 621 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: Wallace stood for the average white guy in the South. 622 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: And George Wallace loved Sweet Home Alabama, by the way, 623 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: and he made the Leonard skinnerd honorary members of the 624 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: state militia and gave them plaques. And Ed says, you know, 625 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: I still have that plaque here in my office that 626 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: says I'm an honorary member of the State Militia, signed 627 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: personally by George C. Wallace. Wallace and you know, sure 628 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: the man had his flaws, that's his quote, but he 629 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: spoke for the common man of the South, which is 630 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: an interesting, uh, I'd say, waffling of the original explanation 631 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: of the song. Well, again, like ed King, he contributed 632 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: to the music of that song, which, as we've said before, 633 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: sweet when Alabama Kicks asked, I think I think that's 634 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: under you know, that's inarguable. You know, there's no subjective 635 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: opinion about this song is objectively awesome musically, so Ed 636 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: King deserves a salute for that. But he didn't write 637 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: the lyrics to the song. And as you said before, 638 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: I think that I would. And maybe this is just 639 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: because I want to believe this. I prefer to accept 640 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: Ronnie van zantz stated interpretation of the song, and it 641 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: does not line up with what Ed King said. Yeah, 642 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, Ronnie, he's probably more 643 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: reliable narrator because again he died so soon after and 644 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: the politics changed so much, and just even just like 645 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: the views of the iconography that the band embraced like 646 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: the Confederate flag changed so much between nine and two 647 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: thousand five even Uh, yeah, it's definitely it almost seems 648 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: like they're there. The band Leonard Skinner today is leaning 649 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: more towards what their base believes today, what it actually 650 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: believed thirty forty years earlier. Yeah, I mean, and you know, 651 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to fall into the trap of speculating 652 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: on what a deceased person would do, but you know, 653 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: I think about Tom Petty, who when the Tom Petty 654 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: and the Heartbreakers they did their Southern Accents tour in 655 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: the mid eighties, like they toured with an America with 656 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: a Confederate flag flying in the background. And years later, 657 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: before Tom died, he gave an interview where he said 658 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: that he was embarrassed that they did that, and he 659 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: was like, look, I thought we were flying it as 660 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: this rebellious thing, as an expression of Southern pride. And 661 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: I look back on it and I realized I was wrong, 662 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: Like we shouldn't have done that, Like I understand like 663 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: how hurtful the symbol is. And I, you know, renounced 664 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: that we did that back then. And I'd like to 665 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: think that Ronnie Van ZANDT would have come to the 666 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: same conclusion, and I really didn't they say that they 667 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: were going to stop flying it a couple of years ago. Yeah, 668 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: there was this thing that they were going to stop 669 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: doing it, and it became this like cultural flashpoint with 670 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: their fans. Like a lot of people in their fan 671 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: base reacted as if they were selling out basically, or 672 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: that they were caving to, you know, like the liberal 673 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: media and like liberal forces outside of the South. And 674 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: I think it really speaks to like the kind of 675 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: fan base that they had cultivated at that point, because, 676 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: like I said before, the band was taken over in 677 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: the early eighties by Ronni vans AND's younger brother, Johnny, 678 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: and Johnny is the one who really started pulling them 679 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: into this more conservative direction. And to me, like one 680 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: of those obvious examples of Johnny going against the example 681 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: of Ronnie is the two nine album God and Guns. 682 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the album God and Guns? Pretty 683 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: on the nose, Gotten guns, godden guns, Keep us strong, 684 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: That's what this country was founded on. That's there you go. 685 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: He says, Well, we might as well give up and 686 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: run if we let them take away our guns, which again, 687 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: if you listen to the song Saturday Night Special, Like 688 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: in that song Running Mandan is talking about like taking 689 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: guns and like throwing them in the ocean, you know, 690 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: like it's a pretty like exploding, Like it's not one 691 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: of those songs. We were like, oh, is this like 692 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: a metaphor for gun control? Is are the are the 693 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: lyrics of vague where you know you can't really tell 694 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: what he's talking about. No, it's like unequivocally talking about 695 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: like how guns are meant to kill people and that 696 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: they're dangerous and that they should be gotten rid of 697 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: and guns are made for killing, they ain't no good 698 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: for nothing else. And if you like to drink your whiskey, 699 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: you might even shoot yourself. So why don't we dump 700 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: them people to the bottom of the sea before some 701 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: old fool come around here want to shoot either you 702 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: or me. Yeah, like not not a lot a gray 703 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: area there. It's like he is writing a song in 704 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: response to God and Guns forty years before God and 705 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: Guns was actually recorded. It's incredible. Um. And then of 706 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: course in we have the whole Confederate flake thing that 707 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,760 Speaker 1: you were talking about, where I think it was Gary 708 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: Rossington gave an interview was CNN where he said, like, 709 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: we're not going to fly the flag anymore, Like was 710 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: it Rossington, Yeah, Oh yeah, it was Rossington, Yeah, And 711 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: he said he said, through the years, people like the 712 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: KKK and Skinheads kind of kidnapped the Dixie or Southern 713 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: flag from its tradition and its heritage of the soldiers. 714 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: That's what it was about, he said. So he basically 715 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: said he didn't want to now that's been projected with 716 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,280 Speaker 1: all his hate from from these groups like the KIAK 717 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: and Skinheads, he didn't want to project that over to 718 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 1: their fans. I think was was his his his statement 719 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: in CNN, right, But then he backtracked because all these 720 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: people freaked out and they're like, oh, thanks Obama, now 721 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: we can't fly the Confederate flag at skinners concerts, right, 722 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: I mean, like, wasn't it like just totally positioned as 723 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: like them just caving to like crying liberals. Oh yeah, 724 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: there was some amazing comments. Good luck with your next release, 725 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: Sweet Home Massachusetts. I'm sure we'll climb the charts with 726 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: a bullet and Yankee Land. They should have taken a 727 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: name like Obama's politically correct, sell your soul, make believe 728 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: imposters or something that's that's one it there now. I 729 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: mean it's interesting. I mean because we haven't really been 730 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: talking a whole lot about Neil Young in this episode. 731 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: I feel like Neil had an interesting period, like during 732 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: the same time like where Leonard Skinner, you know, like 733 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: at the same time that they're putting out God and Guns, 734 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: Neil Young put out that record Living with War, that 735 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: that two thousand six record where, like you said, he 736 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: had songs like let's Impeach the President and there's a 737 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: very explicit type political record. And I don't know if 738 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: you saw this movie, but he he directed a concert 739 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: film called Deja vu H that was of the Crosby 740 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: Stills National Young Tour where they basically played all those 741 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: Living with War songs. Did you see that movie? I 742 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: saw it like when it came out, and I remember 743 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: it was very one sided. I feel like, I mean, 744 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: I guess he directed it right, like yeah, under like 745 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: Bernard Shaky, which is student in him for like when 746 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: he directs films. But yeah, it's an interesting It's interesting 747 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: how he presents it because, as we said before, like 748 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: Neil Young, he's he was he expressed a lot of 749 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: remorse after writing Southern Man in Alabama and essentially conceding 750 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: the points that Ronnie Van's aunt was making a sweeth 751 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: Home Alabama, that he felt that he was being overly 752 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: simplistic and even condescending to people in the South, because again, 753 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: like to just put racism on people in the South 754 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: isn't really fair. I mean, obviously exactly Obviously racism exists there, 755 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: but racism exists everywhere in the country. And uh, you know, 756 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: he could have written about Los Angeles and not just 757 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: Birmingham if you, if you wanted to write maybe a 758 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: more representative song about American racism. But yeah, when you 759 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: watch Deja Vou, it's like, basically the premise of that 760 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: movie is that like Crosby Stills Nation Young are on 761 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,720 Speaker 1: tour and they're being very brave, playing these protests songs 762 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: in front of basically babbling Yahoo's from the South. Like 763 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of footage of like the band like 764 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: they start like they'll play you know, teacher children, and 765 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: people go crazy, and then they started playing let's Impeach 766 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: the President, and all of a sudden, like all of 767 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: these sort of like Bellico Southern people like in Atlanta 768 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: or Texas, or wherever it is, start screaming at the band, 769 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: flipping them off, going crazy and obviously into the camera, 770 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: screaming right into the camera. And like, you know, obviously 771 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: that happened. It's true. But it's interesting to me that 772 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: the film really leans on like footage of southern audiences 773 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: freaking out. And I don't know, like I mean, my 774 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,720 Speaker 1: assumption is that there were probably people in the audience 775 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: at every city that they played who didn't like them 776 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: doing that. Because there's conservative people everywhere, conservative boomers probably 777 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: everywhere who didn't like the living with War songs. They 778 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,479 Speaker 1: might not have liked the living with War songs because 779 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: they also weren't very good either. I mean, they probably 780 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: just wanted to hear golden oldies and not uh these 781 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: new sort of agipro uh Neil Young songs. But in 782 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: a way, it kind of made me think again about 783 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: the larger cultural battles that have gone on between the 784 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: groups of people who project themselves onto Neil Young and 785 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: Leonard Skinnerd. You know, I wrote about this in my 786 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: book about how in a way, like as much as 787 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: Leonard SKINNERD was leaning into the biases of their audiences, 788 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: I wonder like to some degree. I feel like that 789 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: concert movie leans into the biases of Neil Young's audiences 790 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: a little bit. I mean, do you think that's fair? 791 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that album I think was about 792 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 1: the message and one percent about the music. I mean, 793 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: the songs are objectively bad. I would say, you know, 794 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: I mean looking for a leader. I mean there's no 795 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're basically tweets. I feel like, you know, 796 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: I mean there's not a lot of you know, melody, 797 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: There not a lot of nuance there, and it's not 798 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: very artful in any way. It's just purely about getting 799 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: his political view across, which I mean, in some ways 800 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: is what you expect for somebody is stubborn headed. Is 801 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 1: Neil Young. But you're right, I think he was catering 802 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: just as much as Leonard Skinner. It is. Yeah, like, 803 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,359 Speaker 1: you know, as much as I want to laugh at 804 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: a song like Gods and Guns, you know, God and Guns, 805 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: you know it's pretty broad song. I mean, you feel 806 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: like that'd be on South Park or something like that. 807 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: They're going to be making fun of leonyrd Skinner and 808 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you know they're writing this this joke. 809 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: Leonard skinnerd song. I mean there is there is a 810 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: real element of that also for the Left on the 811 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: album Living with War, like those songs are just as 812 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: much as as much preaching to the choir um as 813 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: um Leonard Skinner is on their records, and you know, 814 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 1: and I do think like that that movie Deja Vu, 815 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, it really is attempting to tie the Living 816 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: with War period to like Krasi Stills, Nation and Young's passed, 817 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: like when they were writing songs during the Vietnam era, 818 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: and the idea is almost to like present them as 819 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: being this revitalized band because like, look at us, We're 820 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: still political, We're still sticking it to people on the road, 821 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 1: just like we did back then. I feel like, yeah, 822 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: that might be true, but there's just this sort of 823 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: this the simplification I think of people that goes on 824 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 1: a movie like that that is just sort of sad 825 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 1: to me. And it's like, maybe this wouldn't have happened 826 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: if Skinner could have just covered powder Finger. You know, 827 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,879 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back to that. That was the big 828 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: moment we missed. And now we hate each other on 829 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 1: the internet. We're gonna take a quick break and get 830 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor before we get to more rivals. 831 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: So this is the part of the episode where we 832 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,839 Speaker 1: talk about the pro side um of each person, and 833 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 1: I feel like with Neil Young, it's it's probably easier 834 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: for both of us to come up with the pro 835 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: side because I feel like we probably are both bigger 836 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: Neil Young fans. Is that fair to say? Oh? Absolutely, 837 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: I mean, and you're right, it's not fair because I 838 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: feel like the golden Erave Skinner was really just you know, 839 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: five years acts and Neil has just been making vibrant music, 840 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, right up through today too, So it's just 841 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: purely just from longer, more very career. I think he's 842 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,879 Speaker 1: up there with Dylan as a songwriter. I think as 843 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,399 Speaker 1: a guitarist he shreds harder than anyone and Skinner would 844 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,399 Speaker 1: you say, well, yeah, I mean he's such an unconventional 845 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: guitar player, whereas like the guys and Skinners are like 846 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: some of the great bluesy rock Southern guitar players. I mean, 847 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: it's hard to say that anyone treads harder than the 848 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: dudes and Freebird, I mean, come on, it's Freebird. But yeah, 849 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: I mean I think I prefer Neil Young ultimately as 850 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: a guitar player. Yeah, I mean Neil Young's career. I mean, 851 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: you compare anyone to his career short of like a 852 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: very small number of people like Bob Dylan or something. 853 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean, and they're gonna like not look as good 854 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: as Neil Young. I mean, he's just had an incredible career. 855 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: I think also too, if if we're talking about this 856 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,919 Speaker 1: rivalry specifically, I think the great thing about Neil Young 857 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: is like how cool he was about sweet Ome, Alabama. 858 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: And maybe it's because we've been doing this show for 859 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: a while here, I'm just so used to people being 860 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: insulted in immediately attacking, overreacting, overreacting, and not conceding that 861 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: they were ever wrong. This is the only instance I 862 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: think we've ever had where someone was called out publicly 863 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: and they said, you know what you're right, like and 864 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: not only that your song is better than my song. Like, 865 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: it's so weird that it's Neil Young who seems like 866 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 1: the most hot headed. I mean I'm thinking of like, 867 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, everybody's rocking and all the like stuff that 868 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 1: he did that was really just albums made purely out 869 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: of spite. You know, it seems like if anybody was 870 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: going to take offense to something because it would have 871 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: been him, which makes it so much cooler that he 872 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,879 Speaker 1: did have that response. I can see why he would 873 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: do it that. I think Neil has always been his 874 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: own man, and in a way it's almost the contrarian 875 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: way to go to not get upset about it, you know. 876 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: And I think his contrarian side ultimately contributed to it. 877 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: And I also think that, you know, he could see 878 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: that they were right, you know, and that Sweelm Alabama 879 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: was like such a great song, and that his songs 880 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: maybe like weren't as good as like what they did. 881 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: So it might have just been like the kind of 882 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: self awareness that we're not used to experiencing on this 883 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: show from a major music star. So I really tip 884 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,839 Speaker 1: my cap to Kneel Young for that um going over 885 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: the pro linnerd skinners side, you know. And We've reiterated 886 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: this before, but I'll say it again that unequivocally and 887 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: unapologetically and and inarguably I love Sweet Home Alabama. I 888 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: think it kicks ass. And I think you can't argue 889 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: certainly against the music of that song. It's it's an 890 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,279 Speaker 1: incredible rock anthem, and you know, I think that van 891 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: zand Ronnie van Zanna should say his original point about 892 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,719 Speaker 1: Neil Young being a little condescending in southern man in 893 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: Alabama was on the mark, you know, like racism isn't 894 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,720 Speaker 1: just a Southern problem, it's a it's an issue everywhere, 895 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: and we should all be introspective about it, look into 896 00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: our own hearts and address, you know, the ways that 897 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: we can all be better people, rather than pointing the 898 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: finger at somebody else. And I gotta say, like this band, 899 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, it really bums me out what happened to 900 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,359 Speaker 1: them after Ronnie van Zant died. I I think that 901 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: I can't think of like a better example of a 902 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: band that really went down the tubes when they lost 903 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: their original guiding force. And not only did they go 904 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: down artistically, but it's like the original vision of the 905 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,320 Speaker 1: guy who was in charge, Like it was just totally 906 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: perverted and and twisted and turned into something that I 907 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,439 Speaker 1: think he'd probably be embarrassed by if he were still 908 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: around today. That's what I was gonna ask. You think 909 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: that they would have never wound up in Golden Guns 910 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: territory had had Ronnie survived. I don't know. I mean 911 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,880 Speaker 1: I'd like to think not I may be over idealizing 912 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 1: Ronnie van Zante, you know, because again we keep going 913 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: back to this point. It's like you want to speculate 914 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: on what he would be like, but he's been dead 915 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: for you know over I mean, he died the year 916 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: I was born, you know, so we we really don't know. 917 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,360 Speaker 1: But I guess I prefer to leave that Leonard Skinner 918 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: would have gone on maybe a more progressive path, similar 919 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: to the Almand brothers, like what they what kind of 920 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,359 Speaker 1: band that they were like as they got older. Well, 921 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: I always just think of, you know, given the final 922 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 1: line to the Drive by Truckers their song Ronnie and Neil, 923 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: and Neil helped carry Ronnie and his casket to the ground, 924 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: and in my way of thinking of Southern men need 925 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: him both around. I think that's a good way to 926 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: get into the together argument. Yeah, I think that for me, 927 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 1: Like when we talk about these two groups together, and 928 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 1: I guess I'm talking more about Ronnie van Zette and 929 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: Neil Young Um. You know, I go back to the 930 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: sort of the dual narratives that are going on, Like 931 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,480 Speaker 1: you have the relationship between the two guys, which really 932 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,879 Speaker 1: like doesn't even qualify for this show. I mean because 933 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: even though Sweet Home Alabama is like one of the 934 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: great disc songs of all time, Like these guys really 935 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: were not enemies, and they were it was a mutual 936 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: appreciation society. Um. But it's because of the other narrative, 937 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,839 Speaker 1: which is the cultural narrative and the larger story of 938 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,000 Speaker 1: what music fans have projected onto this onto onto Sweet 939 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,960 Speaker 1: Home Alabama as a song in this rivalry, Um, it 940 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 1: is what makes it a rivalry, and it I think, 941 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: kind of dumbs down the reality and it sucks out 942 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: there the complexities and the nuance, and um, it just reduces, 943 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: I think, something that's like kind of interesting and great 944 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: into just another binary and just like another way that 945 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,279 Speaker 1: people can beat up on each other and and and 946 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,879 Speaker 1: separate each other. And it's sad to me that like 947 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: these guys didn't have more of a history because and 948 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,960 Speaker 1: again I'm probably being overly optimistic here, but I'd like 949 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: to think that if Ronnie Vanzon could have stuck around, 950 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,840 Speaker 1: that him and Neil Young could have been an example 951 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: of like how people who maybe come from different worlds 952 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: and see the world differently can be friends and they 953 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,960 Speaker 1: can find a way to you know, have common ground 954 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: and and not be at each other's throats. Um. Unfortunately, 955 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 1: Ronnie van Zant died and because he died, we live 956 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: in hell. That's my point at the end of this podcast. 957 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,400 Speaker 1: That was when it all started going south. I mean, 958 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: can you if you live, can you imagine like some 959 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,000 Speaker 1: incredible like farm made double bill or something with the 960 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,840 Speaker 1: two of them. Man, Yeah, totally And again, like the 961 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,880 Speaker 1: powder Finger thing, I think would have been incredible. I 962 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: think that would have been an awesome thing. Um, it 963 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 1: would have changed the world. We'd we'd all be better off. 964 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: But you know, we're stuck in this dimension now. But 965 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,919 Speaker 1: hopefully someday we'll end up in the other timeline. We're 966 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: Ronnie and Neil are going fishing together and you know, 967 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 1: shooting the breeze down in Jacksonville, Florida. We can only hope. Well, George, 968 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,760 Speaker 1: I just want you to know that, unlike southern man, 969 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 1: I do need you around. So I'm glad that we 970 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,480 Speaker 1: can do this together and talk about these ravelries. Steve 971 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: and I will wear a T shirt with your face 972 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 1: on it any day. Oh, thank you, even in your casket. 973 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: I really hope for that. Thank you all. For listening 974 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 1: to Rivals again this week. We will be back with 975 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,280 Speaker 1: more Rivals, more beefs, more feuds next week. Thanks everybody. 976 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:17,400 Speaker 1: M Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The 977 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: executive producers are Shawn ty Toone and Noel Brown. Supervising 978 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: producers are Taylor chicogn and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's Run Talk. 979 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 1: I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please 980 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 1: subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcast for 981 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,160 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 982 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.