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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Richard Estepp again, I was impressed by the history of

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Speaker 2: Ashmore Estates that you put together a that it was

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Speaker 2: so progressive it seems for its time of where you know,

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Speaker 2: the residents of that part of Illinois pitched in, put

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Speaker 2: up money, took care of people who couldn't take care

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Speaker 2: of themselves. Pretty impressive that they did that back then,

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Speaker 2: because I'm not sure the taxpayers in that area would

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Speaker 2: be willing to spend that kind of money to do

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Speaker 2: the same thing now. And secondly, impressed by the historical

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Speaker 2: research that you did about just the impressive history of

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Speaker 2: what went on there. It strikes me that a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who have exploited the supposed history of the

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Speaker 2: area didn't do the same kind of research that you did.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Georgin. I'd like to say that,

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Speaker 3: like any rights, from standing on the shoulders of a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of other people when I do this stuff,

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Speaker 3: so research is like Julie Vasquez and others that have

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Speaker 3: been to Ashmore and just and have fallen in love

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Speaker 3: with the place did a lot of the legwork and

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Speaker 3: they left that research available for any anybody that was

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Speaker 3: trying to tell the story openly. You know, it's not

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Speaker 3: like this stuff is a secret, and I really appreciate

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Speaker 3: the fact that they work to bring that stuff to light.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm not gonna I'm not going to sugarcoat the

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Speaker 3: whole location. Bad things happened there. There was trauma and

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Speaker 3: we can talk about some of that. There were accidents,

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Speaker 3: you know, illness. I mean, the place survived the Great

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Speaker 3: Influenza pandemics as well, so there were plenty of depths.

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Speaker 3: And one of the tragedies I think is there is

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Speaker 3: a unique cemetery for the Coles County portfil which is

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Speaker 3: now Ashmore Estates, and it's not accessible because it's on

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Speaker 3: private land that is about a mile away from Ashmore Estates.

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Speaker 3: The graves there are kind of overgrown, some of them

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Speaker 3: are difficult to make out. It's inaccessible to anybody but

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Speaker 3: the landowner. And so there's a real danger of these

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Speaker 3: names and these people being forgotten. And that hugged at

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Speaker 3: my heart strings. Is I think you would at anybody.

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Speaker 2: Are there unmarked graves. You anticipate that there are places

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Speaker 2: that aren't.

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Speaker 3: Mark at all. There are we can almost guarantee this

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Speaker 3: because there are accounts from one of the superintendent's daughters

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Speaker 3: who when she was a little girl, had very distinct

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Speaker 3: and vivid memories of seeing men digging in what is

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Speaker 3: now a cornfield fairly close to the main building itself,

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Speaker 3: doing what appeared to be burials, and there are no

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Speaker 3: markers left, so it's known that there is more than

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Speaker 3: one cemetery, and only one of them really has Marcus.

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Speaker 3: You can guarantee that there are bodies out there in

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Speaker 3: what is now farming fields.

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Speaker 2: So for something to qualify as sort of a paranormal hotspot,

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Speaker 2: do you generally need an underpinning of evil, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: people murdered there or tortured, or is it enough just

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Speaker 2: to have a lot of people who died in a

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Speaker 2: building or location to turn it into sort of a

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Speaker 2: spiritual gathering spot.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you get these sources of great tragedy,

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Speaker 3: of course you have the possibility of a haunting, but

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Speaker 3: also there's the fact that there's all that positive, strong,

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Speaker 3: good family energy as well. When I started investigating the

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Speaker 3: paranormal in the mid nineties in the UK where I

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Speaker 3: come from, a lot of the cases I investigated were

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Speaker 3: these old stately homes where people just loved them a

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Speaker 3: lot during their lifetime, and that love seemed to keep

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Speaker 3: a piece of them behind. George, you know, there was

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Speaker 3: nothing scary, there was nothing dark or negative. You just

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Speaker 3: had remnants. I think of a human personality that seems

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Speaker 3: to have survived death or splintered off at the moment

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Speaker 3: of death. Paranormal enthusiasts love debating exactly how this stuff works,

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Speaker 3: whether it's a disembodied consciousness or whatever. But I think

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Speaker 3: at a place like Ashmore State, you have both. You know,

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Speaker 3: you have a number of terribly deaths, such as the

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Speaker 3: young girl Elder Skinner, who suffered ultimately life ending burns

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Speaker 3: when a candle accidentally set fire to her night dress,

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Speaker 3: you know. And you have Joe Bloxam, who was the handyman,

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Speaker 3: and he was an older gentleman, especially in each gentleman,

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Speaker 3: and he was hit by a train with life threatening injuries.

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Speaker 3: A get Samarad and brought him back to Ashmore Estates

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Speaker 3: in his truck, and despite the best efforts of doctors

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Speaker 3: of the time, he died. And those are two of

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Speaker 3: the better known spirits that are said to haunt Ashmore

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Speaker 3: Estates to this day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So this guy, Joe, his name pops up several times

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Speaker 2: in your book by different people who think they've encountered

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Speaker 2: his spirit, right.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, and he's known for he's a big,

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Speaker 3: tall guy, was very much a handyman. He would cut

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Speaker 3: the grass, he would do the odd jobs that needed doing.

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Speaker 3: And we don't know the specifics other than from records

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Speaker 3: of the fact that he was hit by a train,

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Speaker 3: given serious injuries and brought back to Bashmore Estates. But

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Speaker 3: you know, whether he was distracted or what how that happened,

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Speaker 3: We're not sure, but we do know that his injuries

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Speaker 3: were suppose to bee that he died. And you know,

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Speaker 3: for many years, Joe Bloxham has been seen and experienced

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Speaker 3: walking around inside Ashmore Estates, often as a very tall

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Speaker 3: shadow figure. You know. Elba, on the other hand, is

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Speaker 3: a little bit more mobile. There was a little girl

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Speaker 3: that lived just down the street from Ashmore and her

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Speaker 3: mom came one day to talk to Robin and Norma

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Speaker 3: and said, you know the little girl you have flaunting here,

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Speaker 3: I think she has latched onto my daughter. She had

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Speaker 3: a young daughter herself, about seven years old, I believe,

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Speaker 3: And when Robin asked for the story. It turned out

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Speaker 3: that this little girl was visiting the lady's daughter and

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Speaker 3: she had bandages on her legs and bandages on body,

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Speaker 3: and warned her that her mother's candle needed to be

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Speaker 3: put out because that's how she'd got her at ashmal Estates.

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Speaker 3: And it was one of those cases, George, I think

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Speaker 3: because imaginary friends are not always imaginary as some parents

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Speaker 3: think they are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll have to tell you my story sometime. So

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Speaker 2: you and your team, you have a team that you

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Speaker 2: can tell us a little bit about. You get permission

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Speaker 2: to go ahead and go there. You're going to spend

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Speaker 2: some time, and you know, you go in with sort

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Speaker 2: of a jaundiced I about some of the other stories

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Speaker 2: that have been told somewhat exaggerated. I guess about demonic activity,

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Speaker 2: people seeing demons all over the place, and evil spirits

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Speaker 2: and things of that sort. You're going into it with

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Speaker 2: an open mind, but you recognize the history of the

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Speaker 2: place doesn't suggest that that would be what you're going

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Speaker 2: to encounter.

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Speaker 1: So you go there.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about your team and how you set up

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Speaker 2: shop and how you go about this investigation.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I work with a team of individuals that all

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Speaker 3: bring something unique to the table in terms of their

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Speaker 3: skill sets. So, for example, Erin is a works in

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Speaker 3: the field of psychiatry and counseling. She has master's degrees

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Speaker 3: that I couldn't possibly name in the mental health field.

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Speaker 3: Catlin is a professor of religious studies and comparative religions.

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Speaker 3: She's a PhD and teaches that, so she has kind

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Speaker 3: of the metaphysical side of things covered, you know. Susan

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Speaker 3: is an attorney. She's a lawyer and brings that kind

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Speaker 3: of analytical mindset that the team really benefits from. So

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Speaker 3: when I work with somebody, what I'm really looking for

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Speaker 3: is kind of a skill set that helps us delve

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Speaker 3: into the mysteries of the location, into the historical research,

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Speaker 3: and into the paranormal experiments we conduct. So we have

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Speaker 3: a fairly small footprint. Usually when I an investigation, I

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Speaker 3: have no more than six or seven people ashmore estates.

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Speaker 3: We were actually down to I think just five, four

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Speaker 3: or five and we were living on site, you know,

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Speaker 3: so we didn't leave. We were staying on site throughout

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Speaker 3: the day, throughout the night and really getting to know

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Speaker 3: the rhythms of the building. When I was a volunteer firefighter,

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Speaker 3: I was always taught you know, it's not the fire

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Speaker 3: that kills you most of the time, it's the building

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Speaker 3: and the way it reacts. So studying its architecture, the

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Speaker 3: way the air moved, the way it's constructed, the way

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Speaker 3: sound travels through the building. And I think too that

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Speaker 3: to get into the more metaphysical side of things, George,

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Speaker 3: do you know how when a hunter goes out into

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Speaker 3: the woods. At first, you know, all of the wildlife

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Speaker 3: just kind of stops because there's this disturbance. And then

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Speaker 3: if the hunter just kind of finds a hide, lays

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Speaker 3: down weight, everything goes back to normal slowly. If the

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Speaker 3: animals get used to this new presence, it stops being

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Speaker 3: a disturbance. Well, I think it's the same way when

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Speaker 3: investigators go to a haunted location. You can't just breathe

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Speaker 3: in for an hour or two, start demanding that the

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Speaker 3: spirits show themselves like performing monkeys. And you know, I've

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Speaker 3: seen too many people that do that, when in reality,

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Speaker 3: you have to get in, let them get used to you.

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Speaker 3: You know, I like to behave like a house guest,

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Speaker 3: because I really am. If we truly do believe we're

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Speaker 3: dealing with the spirits of dead people, here, they were

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Speaker 3: at Ashmore Estates or any haunted place long before I was.

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Speaker 3: You know, how rude would it be if I came

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Speaker 3: to your home started throwing my weight around and making

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Speaker 3: demands of you. You show me the door pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: Seems like your approaches is to have conversations, is to

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Speaker 2: converse in a polite terms, not demanding anything, but just

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Speaker 2: saying there's anybody around that wants to have a chat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think as a golden rule, you know,

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Speaker 3: treat the dead like you would treat the living, and

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Speaker 3: hopefully that's with respect and courtesy. And I also like

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Speaker 3: to tell them when I'm working on a book project, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to tell your story. If there are elements

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Speaker 3: that are untrue, please let me figure this out. Do

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Speaker 3: what you can please to help me, you know, correct

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Speaker 3: the record. And I'm not claiming that, you know, people

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Speaker 3: have been lying about Ashmore Estates all this time or

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Speaker 3: anything like that. I do think some narratives gain traction

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Speaker 3: more easily than others, especially when those narratives are on

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Speaker 3: the dark side of things, you know. I think that's

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Speaker 3: one of the big issues the field of paranormal entertainment has.

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Speaker 3: In fact, as.

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Speaker 2: As it's possible that different people bring out different reactions

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Speaker 2: in places like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fair as well. I think there's a degree

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Speaker 3: of you get what you take in with you, you know,

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Speaker 3: and certainly there are individuals there that have very bad

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Speaker 3: experiences that have left screaming in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 3: I talk about some of them in the book. Under

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Speaker 3: the previous owner, I think he seemed very open minded

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Speaker 3: about the haunting there, just as Robin is, and I

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Speaker 3: found newspaper accounts of a lady that had the fright

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Speaker 3: of her life inside. Ashmore estates when a figure came

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Speaker 3: out of a wall at her and she felt threatened. Now,

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Speaker 3: what's interesting is how do you perceive that? Is it

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Speaker 3: the objective reality of what's going on? You know, you're

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Speaker 3: in a haunted building, you're told it's haunted, it's dark,

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Speaker 3: you're already terrified, your heart rates already one hundred and twenty,

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Speaker 3: and then you see the shadowy figure step out of

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Speaker 3: a wall. It's really easy to, I think, misconstrue that

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Speaker 3: as an attack or as a threat, when often I

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Speaker 3: think it's just them doing what they do.

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Speaker 2: So, which parts of this building did you think might

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Speaker 2: have been the heart of the activity, and did you

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Speaker 2: check those out first?

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Speaker 3: You know, I always ask about hotspots, and there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of ground to cover. Ashmore, though, is so consistently

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Speaker 3: weird and active. I almost think I've asked so many

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Speaker 3: visitors this question, and I've some have told me, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's the basement. Others have said no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: it's the second floor. No it's the stairwell. And there

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Speaker 3: are no consistent answers because people have had strange things

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Speaker 3: go on pretty much in all parts of the building.

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Speaker 3: The minute I walked inside for the first time, I

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Speaker 3: was with Brad cling and investigated from Texas, who he

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Speaker 3: and his brother Barry start in the show Ghost Lab.

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Speaker 3: No sooner have we walked into the building than we

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Speaker 3: had very clearly the sound of a person whistling. So

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Speaker 3: we're like, there's somebody in here, There is an intruder

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Speaker 3: in here already, we need to go sweep the place.

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Speaker 3: And Robin did not appear to be bothered, not least

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Speaker 3: because I learned later he has a camera system with

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Speaker 3: all of the motion sensors and stuff like that. It

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Speaker 3: had not been tripped, no one could have been in

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Speaker 3: that building gained access without tripping the camera system. But

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Speaker 3: we went from room to room, floor to floor, didn't

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Speaker 3: find anybody there at all, no evidence of an intruder.

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Speaker 3: I have the recording plain as day. Somebody was whistling

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Speaker 3: a tune, and numerous investigators have gotten that same jaunty whistling,

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Speaker 3: the kind of thing that you do when you're going

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Speaker 3: about your chores or tasks, you know, so.

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Speaker 2: You heard a lot of other things. I you know,

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Speaker 2: we're going to take a break out about three minutes,

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Speaker 2: but let's start with the equipment that you use and

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Speaker 2: the kind of recording. If you were able to make

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Speaker 2: a general description absolutely well.

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Speaker 3: Like many paranormal investigators, I'm a believer of these radio

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Speaker 3: frequency helping devices, which they're nicknamed spirit boxes. They're kind

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Speaker 3: of controversial. Some people believe in them, some don't. But

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Speaker 3: you add a set of industrial quality noise canceling headphones

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Speaker 3: to the mix, and you are often able to hear

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Speaker 3: voices coming out between the frequencies, stating names, dates, answering

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Speaker 3: your questions directly. So I'm a big fan of using

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Speaker 3: that particular techniques known as the Esther's methods, because it

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Speaker 3: was popularized in this part of Colorado up at the

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Speaker 3: Family Hotel, which of course is the basis for Stephen

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Speaker 3: Kings to shining. So we liked recording those sessions. I'm

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Speaker 3: a believer in using both audio tape, analog tape and

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Speaker 3: digital recorders. I thank an investigator called John Tenny for

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Speaker 3: pointing that out. We live in the digital age, right, George.

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Speaker 3: You know you can do EVPs now on your cell phone,

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Speaker 3: but digital recorders use a series of ones and zeros

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Speaker 3: on a hard drive to record sound. Magnetic tape work differently,

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Speaker 3: and I've seen the magnetic tape recorder capture EVPs that

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Speaker 3: the digital recorders didn't pick up, and vice versa. So

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Speaker 3: it's important to go old school, you know, nineteen seventies

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Speaker 3: era tape recorder, cassette recorder alongside the newer high tech

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Speaker 3: electronic digital solutions.

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Speaker 2: And you've got quite a few recordings, I guess quite

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Speaker 2: a few throughout much of your visit, right, different kinds

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Speaker 2: of you're encountering, different individuals, what sound like different individuals?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean one thing that I took joy in

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Speaker 3: myself is a little strange, and the video is out

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Speaker 3: there on YouTube if anyone wants to suffer this themselves.

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Speaker 3: But there is a room with children's toys and books,

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Speaker 3: and I put on a child tiara and sat and

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Speaker 3: read a bedtime story because we know there are child

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Speaker 3: spirits there. You know, what could be more natural than

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Speaker 3: reading a bedtime story to the children and kind of

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Speaker 3: putting them at ease. That was a good way to

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Speaker 3: get into activity that didn't involve, you know, yelling and

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Speaker 3: shouting and that kind of thing, and didn't work. So

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Speaker 3: you know, we got a lot of shadowy figure activity

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Speaker 3: after we did that, if you was to be careful,

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Speaker 3: because there was at least one bat in Ashmore at

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Speaker 3: that time that we adopted and we called him Lablow.

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Speaker 3: So when the shadows of movie, sometimes it is as

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Speaker 3: simple as a flying rodent. But we also got human

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Speaker 3: shaped figures, at least one of which triggered the motion

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Speaker 3: centers on the security system in a completely empty stairwell.

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Speaker 3: We had stones that were thrown as well, not in

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Speaker 3: a threatening away but more of a hey, I'm here

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to prove it.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot

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