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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom never told

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Speaker 1: you from house stuff Works dot com. Hey Baron, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. This is Kristen and this is Molly Molly.

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Speaker 1: Since this episode is about the odd form of burlesque, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna started off with one word. Okay, Dita, you

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Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about? My idea mainly because people

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Speaker 1: who date Marilyn Manson always interests me somehow. You always

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Speaker 1: get such foxy ladies, Dita Vontis. Yes, she actually married

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Speaker 1: Marilyn Manson. She did briefly, but she didn't marry Dita Vonties.

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Speaker 1: If you don't know, because I actually didn't know for

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Speaker 1: a little while. And I kept seeing um these like

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Speaker 1: red carpet photos when I would take brain breaks on

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Speaker 1: trashy blogs, and I would see all these photos of

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Speaker 1: this super super fun lady named Deeta Vontees and she's

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Speaker 1: got this very retro look jet black hair and bright

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Speaker 1: red lips and kind of paler skin, and uh, and

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Speaker 1: I thought to myself, who is this this creature of beauty.

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Speaker 1: Indeeda Fontis is considered the queen today's queen of burlesque. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but I think that as soon as I think what

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Speaker 1: Diavontees has had to say is that I'm I'm not

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Speaker 1: a stripper. Yeah, I think that that's sort of when

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Speaker 1: you see Da Montees and you hear about um burlesque

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Speaker 1: with you know, pasties and and lingerie, it's all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden must it must be kind of like glorified stripping. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean she has posed, you know, for certain fetish

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Speaker 1: magazines and things like that. But we are here today

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Speaker 1: to uh talk about whether or not burlesque is the

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Speaker 1: same thing as stripping and kind of how it all

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Speaker 1: originated because it has pretty fascinating history. And today, Um,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of new burlesque troops that are

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Speaker 1: popping up. I know that when I was in college, Um,

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Speaker 1: there was a group of girls who formed a burlesque

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Speaker 1: troop and I went and saw them perform. Here in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: where you and I are based, Um, there are there's

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Speaker 1: at least one burlesque troop that that I know of,

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Speaker 1: So I kind of got us thinking about what what

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Speaker 1: is this burlesque? We'll tell people what it was like

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Speaker 1: to see a burlesque show, because there may be people who,

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Speaker 1: even though we've mentioned the fabulous DNA bontees and this

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Speaker 1: idea that it's similar to stripping, may not know what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. So just kind of describe a show

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Speaker 1: to us. Well today, if you go to a burlesque show, well,

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Speaker 1: I will relate my own experience at um. All we

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Speaker 1: can ask. All you can ask is for my for

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Speaker 1: my stories and my stories or what I'll give you. Um.

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Speaker 1: So uh, it was basically, um, every girl kind of

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Speaker 1: had her own persona. I think that there was one

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Speaker 1: one that comes to mind, Um was a girl who

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Speaker 1: I knew fairly well, who was dressed up like cow girl,

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Speaker 1: and she came on stage and there was some kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, hokey country song long um that she

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Speaker 1: danced too and basically did a kind of strip tease

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Speaker 1: which I didn't feel. Kind of kind of awkward at times,

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Speaker 1: like watching watching my friend stripped in front of me,

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Speaker 1: but she was good. Did she get completely naked? She

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Speaker 1: did not get completely naked. The most naked that girls

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Speaker 1: Scott were down to um their underwear or even if

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Speaker 1: they were very daring, they had some pasties with tessels

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Speaker 1: tassels tessels on them and could do some fancy, fancy twirling.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it was out at a it

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Speaker 1: was at a bar, and you know, so obviously like

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Speaker 1: there weren't live, live nude women running around anywhere, and

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Speaker 1: of course and they stayed on stage. You know, they

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Speaker 1: would kind of they would tease the audience as they

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Speaker 1: would you know, hence stripped tease um. But it was

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Speaker 1: never anything of you know, there weren't any lap dances

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Speaker 1: or anything like that involved. It was very theatrical, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's always sort of what I thought about when

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Speaker 1: I thought about burlesque was sort of a strip tease um.

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Speaker 1: Crazy costumes, Yeah, like lots of feathers. You always see

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Speaker 1: um Dita Mantis has these fabulous outfits. She kind of

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Speaker 1: dances around with a Martini glass. So I thought it

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Speaker 1: was just that, just the women dancing um. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I never really thought it was stripping per se, but

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Speaker 1: I did not realize it had kind of this um

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Speaker 1: vaudeville history, Like it was almost sort of just like

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Speaker 1: theater that happened to include weird costumes in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: When burlesque really gets off the ground, it's sort of

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Speaker 1: a general term that's applied to, you know, just comic

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Speaker 1: plays and musicals and non musicals and just sort of

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Speaker 1: kind of hokey theater. Yeah, and if you went to

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Speaker 1: a show in the eight late eighteen hundreds, you were

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Speaker 1: probably going to see, um, all these skits that kind

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Speaker 1: of just poked fun at society. I was reading these

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Speaker 1: descriptions of burlesque and they said surprisingly to me that

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Speaker 1: Shrek Too was almost a good example of burlesque because

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Speaker 1: it was making fun of so many things in our society.

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Speaker 1: So it was almost like they would take a popular

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Speaker 1: like show or play at the time then just make

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Speaker 1: it completely silly. And that was a Burlessia wasn't always

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Speaker 1: just women kind of dancing about, right, And this really

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Speaker 1: started in Britain and the Victorian Age, and this idea

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Speaker 1: of women like women weren't immediately stripping at that point,

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Speaker 1: Like there was no strip tease in old school burlesque,

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Speaker 1: but women were wearing a lot fewer clothes than a

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Speaker 1: normal Victorian woman walking on the street would have. And

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Speaker 1: this idea of seeing a woman in more of her

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Speaker 1: just bare female form was pretty groundbreaking. Well, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like it was even just groundbreaking to have the woman

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Speaker 1: on stage in the first place. So already got kind

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Speaker 1: of this upended idea of whether women should be on

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Speaker 1: a stage and if so, what role they should be playing,

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Speaker 1: because rather than you know, singing an aria in the

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Speaker 1: great theater halls, they were on stage in the ridiculous

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Speaker 1: costume like singing hokey parodies of opera and um. And

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Speaker 1: then going coming over to the US, the first big

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Speaker 1: um burlesque true that sort of took over the New

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Speaker 1: York scene was a British burlesque troop run by a

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Speaker 1: woman named Lydia Thompson. And this idea of not only

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Speaker 1: you know, these more scantily clad women, um, but then

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Speaker 1: playing all it was an all female troupe and they

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Speaker 1: were playing all the roles, including the roles of the

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Speaker 1: more sexual aggressors and um. You know, these productions were

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Speaker 1: written and the whole operation was run by women in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen sixties. So the idea of not only these

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Speaker 1: kind of scantily clad women who were performing on stage

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Speaker 1: without men, but they're playing all the parts and everything

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Speaker 1: is written and produced and run by women is a

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty progressive thing for its day. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: there they were denounced. They didn't get necessarily good reviews

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Speaker 1: from the good upstanding citizens, which only made it more

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Speaker 1: popular as this underground kind of thing. Um. But as

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Speaker 1: time went on, the fact that they had women who

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Speaker 1: were willing to not wear as many clothes as those

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Speaker 1: out on the street with their hoop skirts and all

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Speaker 1: that we're wearing kind of started to become the signature.

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Speaker 1: Didn't stop, um, all of skits that even males were

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Speaker 1: involved in. But you know, at some point the feminine,

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Speaker 1: wit witty song that they were singing while they're scantily

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Speaker 1: clad became less important than the fact that they were

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Speaker 1: scantily clad. Yeah, and in burlesque shows two were taken

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Speaker 1: over by um men who were running them, and they did,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously UM realized that their audience liked to

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Speaker 1: see ladies in their in their pasts. But I like

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Speaker 1: how um, they kind of slid into it accidentally. But

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Speaker 1: I liked reading in this history of burlesque that we

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Speaker 1: found at Musicals one oh one, how they kind of

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, it was a slippery slope and

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Speaker 1: too scandal. One of the biggest burlesque stars of the

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Speaker 1: early twentieth cent she was a dancer name Millie de Leon.

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Speaker 1: She was very attractive and she would toss her garters

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Speaker 1: into the audience um to gair reaction. But occasionally, whoops,

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Speaker 1: she forget to wear tights, so she would get arrested.

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Speaker 1: And that's also it helped to give burlesque it's raunchy reputation.

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Speaker 1: So if you were a proper vaudeville performer traveling the

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Speaker 1: way that these burlesque shows try from town to town, um,

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Speaker 1: you know this was lowest common denominator. This was you know,

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Speaker 1: scamps who wouldn't put their tights on. Yeah, you would

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Speaker 1: think you would kind of graduate from burlesque up to vaudeville,

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Speaker 1: and then if you were in Vaudeville and you were

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Speaker 1: having a really tough time of it, you would um

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Speaker 1: go under an assumed name and then start performing in

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Speaker 1: burlesque again. But going back to the evolution of the

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Speaker 1: strip tease, we really have um a pair of brothers

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Speaker 1: called the Minsky Brothers to thank for that. And these

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Speaker 1: were burlesque promoters in New York who really put the

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Speaker 1: stripped teas on stage instead of something that men would

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Speaker 1: have to pay extra four to see UM in more

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Speaker 1: private quarters. And once the Great Depression rolls around, the

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Speaker 1: Minsky brothers were like, hey, well the men are still

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Speaker 1: paying to see the women stick around. They don't want

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Speaker 1: to come in and see some guy ham it up

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Speaker 1: on stage and in a clown outfit. Um. And so

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Speaker 1: that's when the idea of stripping really kind of takes off,

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Speaker 1: because it was just something in the Great Depression to

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Speaker 1: keep audiences around, which is so depressing. Paul is a

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Speaker 1: depressing time, Yes, so that does become the focal point.

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Speaker 1: But then you know, as time goes on, then you

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Speaker 1: have pornography and you don't necessarily need to go watch

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Speaker 1: woman strip do a strip tease. You can go somewhere

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Speaker 1: and watch woman just strip, right, And that's and that's

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Speaker 1: a separate category. I think the point of this is

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Speaker 1: that's a separate category from burlesque because at the same

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Speaker 1: time you still have you know, the fan dancer Sally

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Speaker 1: Rand and then um Gypsy Lowes rose Lee, who back

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Speaker 1: in the day was kind of the Ditavantees of her time,

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Speaker 1: who was one of the most famous burlesque performers. Who

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Speaker 1: wasn't she wasn't stripping down to everything. Well, it's still

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Speaker 1: you know, there's still some element of comedy, like do

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Speaker 1: you really want to watch someone strip kind of while

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Speaker 1: they're trying to do comedy about society. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: an article in Esquire in nineteen sixty four that described

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Speaker 1: how one burlesque performance played her strip for last and

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Speaker 1: one of her breasts accidentally pops out of the costume,

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Speaker 1: which you know, they weren't gonna completely naked, they had,

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Speaker 1: you know, costumes on, and she was like, Oh, tell it,

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Speaker 1: you like it, it'll make it grow. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know much about why men like stripping, but

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Speaker 1: I would think that you wouldn't want tons and jokes

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Speaker 1: mere stripping. I would say that men probably don't go

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Speaker 1: to strip clubs for laughs. Um. But then, you know,

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Speaker 1: and then around the turn of the century, we have

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Speaker 1: more of these vice laws coming out, and the Mayor

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Speaker 1: of New York, you know, tries to shut down all

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Speaker 1: of these, um, any burlesque clubs and of course any

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Speaker 1: sex clubs as well. And it kind of dies down

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Speaker 1: in the fifties and the sixties, and now we're in

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Speaker 1: what they call the neo burlesque revival because now that

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Speaker 1: we do have things like pornography and strip clubs, permeating

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Speaker 1: our culture. It's almost like a novelty to have a

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Speaker 1: performance where a person doesn't get completely naked and makes

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Speaker 1: it sort of a show. And that's where against the

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Speaker 1: argument is a female sort of reclaiming her body on

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Speaker 1: stage or she's still just doing glorified stripping. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this all kind happens. It starts off in the mid

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Speaker 1: but it really doesn't take off until I think around

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Speaker 1: two thousand two. And now you have um Club Noir

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Speaker 1: in Glasgow, which is the world's biggest burlesque club, and

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Speaker 1: it attracts up to two thousand people per night, so

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Speaker 1: it's become it's become very popular. But like you said,

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Speaker 1: there is this argument of whether or not women are

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Speaker 1: simply debasing themselves by putting on these glitzia outfits and

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Speaker 1: then slowly taking them off. And it's also important to

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Speaker 1: remember people, I was reading in the New York Times

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Speaker 1: how people go to burlesque shows expecting to see sort

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Speaker 1: of this strip tease the woman dancing around and get

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Speaker 1: really surprised when it's sort of the old style burlesque show.

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Speaker 1: Or you might first have a skip by men on

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Speaker 1: roller skates making fun of society and you know, people

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Speaker 1: are like where are the the artful strippers? And you know,

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Speaker 1: if if you are going to burlesque, seow it, it

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Speaker 1: might be that sort of old style. And another interesting

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Speaker 1: thing about burlesque today is if you you know, if

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Speaker 1: you walk into like a big strip club, uh, you're

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Speaker 1: probably gonna be mn minority if you are a woman.

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Speaker 1: But if you go to a burlesque club, a majority

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Speaker 1: of the audience or women who go to see these

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Speaker 1: really awesome vintage costumes they have, they like the comedy

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Speaker 1: and all of that, and it's more of a like

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Speaker 1: it'd be something fun to go see, you know, with

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Speaker 1: a date. Then you know, going to see like women

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Speaker 1: just stripping like in the Graduate and Dustin Hoffman takes

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Speaker 1: Yea the daughter to that to that club. Um, so

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Speaker 1: that's sort of on the plus side of whether this

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Speaker 1: is good for females or not good for females. If

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Speaker 1: a female can watch it, the argument goes, then that

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Speaker 1: has to be empowering. If the person on the stage

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Speaker 1: has you know, a different body type, let's say, then

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Speaker 1: what's commonly accepted as the stripper body type, then isn't

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Speaker 1: that good for women? So that's those are a few

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Speaker 1: of the arguments people will throw out as to why

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Speaker 1: this is empowering because you're not completely stripping. You can

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Speaker 1: make it artsy, women like to watch it, and there's

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Speaker 1: no you know, set body types of this appeals to right.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, the other side of that

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Speaker 1: argument you have people who are saying, wait, this is stripping.

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Speaker 1: Women are getting down to you know, next to nothing,

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Speaker 1: and um some uh, some towns in England are trying

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Speaker 1: to pass laws to make um any clubs that have

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Speaker 1: burlesque shows have to have the same licenses as a

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Speaker 1: strip club would have to write because you know, on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the the coin, you still are it's

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Speaker 1: still an objectification of a woman's body. How different at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day can that be than stripping?

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Speaker 1: If you're still saying, here's my body, look at it,

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Speaker 1: love it, pay me money? Well, what about this though,

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Speaker 1: Molly um. A lot of times burlesque um is usually

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Speaker 1: considered more of a hobby than a profession because these

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Speaker 1: costumes that women buy uh to perform in are not cheap.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I wouldn't think such beautiful things can be cheap. No,

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Speaker 1: such feather fans and fancy fancy jewels. No, it's not

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Speaker 1: it's not very cheap and um, and women also think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, as opposed to stripping where you walk in

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Speaker 1: and you know it's you. It is a lot of

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Speaker 1: just women kind of all in g strings. You have.

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Speaker 1: Burlesque performers create these entire characters around who they are,

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Speaker 1: like the you know, one of the keys of being

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Speaker 1: good at burlesque because you have to create your own,

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Speaker 1: um kind of persona burlesque persona to stand out. And

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Speaker 1: it's not just a female hobby. While you know, we

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Speaker 1: tend to think about people like ditavantees and we're talking

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Speaker 1: about all these jewels and other dresses, etcetera. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are male burlesque troops. What what are their troops names?

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Speaker 1: I don't have the paper. There's one, Um, I think

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Speaker 1: this is quarantine. Yes, the BBC. Um, there's a popular

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Speaker 1: act called bar Lesque and the dream Bears. That's a

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Speaker 1: male male burlesque troop. So I like that. So that's

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Speaker 1: the thing is we have this argument going on right now. Um.

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Speaker 1: Is it a saucy, fun entertainment where everyone just kind

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Speaker 1: of gets to be themselves in a non threatening manner

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Speaker 1: or as we'll see whatever shakes out of Britain in

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Speaker 1: the next few months. Is it is it stripping and

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Speaker 1: they're getting away with something? Yeah, but I think it is.

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Speaker 1: It is important to realize that, um, you know, there

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Speaker 1: is I think there is at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: a very big difference between um, burlesque and stripping, because

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Speaker 1: you know, the point of stripping isn't to you know,

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Speaker 1: perform and I don't know entertain and show off like

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Speaker 1: comedic wit at all. It's you know, should get naked,

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Speaker 1: whereas with burlesque it is more of an entire production. Right,

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Speaker 1: But both make people uncomfortable because just because burlesque can

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Speaker 1: be campy, it doesn't mean it's not arousing. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is is societies will probably

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Speaker 1: always be uncomfortable with things that are designed to provoke

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Speaker 1: and arouse. Yeah, it's still very sexually provocative, and I

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Speaker 1: would say even more provocative sometimes because the women like

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Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier aren't actually getting completely naked. I mean

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Speaker 1: the fact that we have you know, such you know,

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Speaker 1: quick access to you know whatever kind of um, don't know,

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Speaker 1: pornography you want to see, you know, this idea of

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Speaker 1: a woman, not even or a man if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're a dream bear. Um getting down to just next

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Speaker 1: to nothing and just taking you up to that point

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Speaker 1: and then kind of dropping you off and walking off

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Speaker 1: the stage is almost, i would say, even more provocative.

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Speaker 1: So I think, Molly, this is the time to turn

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Speaker 1: it over to our listeners. I would like to know

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Speaker 1: what you guys think about burlesque and whether or not

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Speaker 1: um it is something that's a positive form of entertainment

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Speaker 1: or if you think that it should just be equated

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Speaker 1: with with stripping and more heavily regulated. All right, let's

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Speaker 1: you guys. Yes, mom stuff at house, stuffwork dot com. Men, women,

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Speaker 1: please tell us your thoughts or you're just your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on I Dtavantie's Mina married Marilyn Manson. Yes, indeed, if

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Speaker 1: you're listening, just let me know. And speaking of writing in,

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Speaker 1: I got a couple of emails to read. We've gotten

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Speaker 1: so many responses from you guys, great stories from uh

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Speaker 1: the episode on whether women should give up their maiden names.

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Speaker 1: And I have one from Katriona aka Cat in l

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Speaker 1: A and she says, I felt you too missed a

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Speaker 1: point that irks me personally. I'm sorry, Cat, maiden names

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Speaker 1: aren't really feminine. For example, if I was getting married

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Speaker 1: and was choosing between my fiance's name and my maiden name,

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Speaker 1: what I'm really choosing between is my fiance's name and

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Speaker 1: my father's name. Even my mother's maiden name is really

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Speaker 1: my grandfather's name. All of my choices are men's name,

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Speaker 1: and no last name is truly my own. So it's

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Speaker 1: a very good point. The cat brings up men always

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Speaker 1: keeping the ladies down. And uh, now I've got one

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Speaker 1: from Michelle, and uh, she says. You mentioned a bit

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Speaker 1: about world traditions, and I wanted to add that in

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Speaker 1: many countries in Asia, that the child takes the father's name,

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Speaker 1: women never changed their last name after marriage. I've always

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Speaker 1: found this interesting because keeping your last name in the

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Speaker 1: US is considered freeing, but in Asia, um, which is

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Speaker 1: still very much conventional, it is tradition. And I've heard

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Speaker 1: two reasons as to this. One. It keeps a woman

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Speaker 1: as part of her proud family. And there's great importance

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Speaker 1: placed on family names in Asia, which is why its

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Speaker 1: last name, then first name, once said or written she

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Speaker 1: I didn't know um, and then number two though she

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Speaker 1: marries into the family, traditionally living with the extended family,

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Speaker 1: she's still not part of it, and this is also

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Speaker 1: a way of keeping her apart. There are many horror stories. UM.

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Speaker 1: I've also heard um that it's to not let her

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Speaker 1: have claim on her children who take the father's last name. Granted,

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Speaker 1: since Asian surnames aren't that varied, there may not be

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Speaker 1: any difference between the couple's last names Asian Americans who

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Speaker 1: are raised in Western society. However, I've noticed you all

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Speaker 1: three things change, keep, and hyphenate. Interesting. Yeah, so thanks Michelle,

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Speaker 1: and to continue with around the world tradition, we got

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Speaker 1: several emails from Canadians who pointed out that UM, in

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Speaker 1: the French Canadian in province of Quebec, women must keep

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Speaker 1: their maiden name when married and so um as I said,

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Speaker 1: numerous listeners emails about this, but I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: from Elizabeth, who copied and pasted the law which says

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Speaker 1: both spouses keep their birth names after marriage and continue

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Speaker 1: to exercise their civil rights under that name, i e.

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Speaker 1: They must use their birth name and contracts on credit cards,

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Speaker 1: on their driver's license, etcetera. This rule applies to all

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Speaker 1: spouses domiciled in Quebec, even if they were married outside Quebec. However,

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Speaker 1: women married before April Scode who were already using their

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Speaker 1: husband's surname before that date may continue to exercise their

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Speaker 1: soul rights under their married name, and Elizabeth goes on

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Speaker 1: to explain that this ruling was adopted in one to

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Speaker 1: promote both gender equality and to preserve the heritage of

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Speaker 1: traditional French surnames. Nearly as can go through the same

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Speaker 1: legal official name change application process as somebody wanting to

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Speaker 1: change their name for other reasons. However, marriage is not

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Speaker 1: listened listed as one of the reasons for a name

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Speaker 1: changed to be granted, and as such women are usually

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Speaker 1: forced to keep their main name. It was contentious issue

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Speaker 1: among some Quebecer's and adds to its perpetual fire between

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Speaker 1: English and French speaking equippickers. Very cool and to round

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Speaker 1: things out, Molly, I have a correction that I caught

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Speaker 1: when I was listening to our podcast on um whether

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Speaker 1: or not menstruation is the Last Taboo? And I miss

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Speaker 1: correct incorrectly said that Susanne Summers was a star in

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Speaker 1: All of the Family and I am so wrong. That

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Speaker 1: was three three company right, yeah, yeah, Um it was

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Speaker 1: actually Sally Struther's character that I was trying to refer to.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sorry, I'll doubles all in the family fans.

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Speaker 1: I realized my mistake and it was Sally Struthers and

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Speaker 1: that's it. So, guys, if you want to check out

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Speaker 1: what me and Molly are doing during the week, head

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Speaker 1: over to you your blog called how to stuff. And

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Speaker 1: if you um want to read about a lot of

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Speaker 1: different things, not burlesque, but a lot of different things

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Speaker 1: aside from burless, you can go check out our wonderful

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Speaker 1: website called how stuff works dot com for more on

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Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Want more how stuff works? Check out

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Speaker 1: our blogs on the house. Stuff works dot com home

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Speaker 1: page brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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