Speaker 1: My name is noam ut eBay and you're listening to
Speaker 1: false prophets. This is the hardest part of my story
Speaker 1: to share with you, and I want to warn you
Speaker 1: this episode deals with suicidal thoughts and could be triggering
Speaker 1: for some listeners. Life after Hillsong was not easy. It's
Speaker 1: getting easier as time goes. At the beginning, I had
Speaker 1: to find a way to substitute the time that I
Speaker 1: was giving on Sundays. First and foremost, I was able
Speaker 1: to sleep in. I didn't have to wake up like
Speaker 1: at five thirty six am on a Sunday to get ready,
Speaker 1: So I was able to substitute my time with resting
Speaker 1: and sleeping in, and I was able to make Sundays
Speaker 1: be a safe haven that went from a place of
Speaker 1: being traumatic to now be a space where I didn't
Speaker 1: have to give anyone my time if I didn't want to,
Speaker 1: I could do whatever I want it. After leaving, I
Speaker 1: was living with my friend Morgan. We rented a two
Speaker 1: bedroom apartment together. We lived in front of the beach,
Speaker 1: so it was a way for me to get away
Speaker 1: from the city life and really think through and heal.
Speaker 1: When I could sit on my balcony and just stare
Speaker 1: out and journal and listen to podcasts, listen and read books.
Speaker 1: It became that really big healing space for me in
Speaker 1: that apartment, and to this day, that's still something I do.
Speaker 1: I find a way to fill in my Sundays. I'll
Speaker 1: go and see my girlfriend and we'll go shopping together,
Speaker 1: or do something fun. I go for a long walk
Speaker 1: with Teddy at the park and we'll have a picnic there.
Speaker 1: So obviously, healing after Hillsong has taken up a lot
Speaker 1: of time and money, but it has been a space
Speaker 1: where I have been able to take back my power
Speaker 1: in spending my day with whoever and wherever I want.
Speaker 1: Before I got to this point, and before I finally
Speaker 1: understood Hillsong's attitude towards my queer identity, I went through
Speaker 1: a very dark and very dangerous time. I'm going to
Speaker 1: take you back to a time I had suicidal thoughts
Speaker 1: and when I felt so alone and rejected. Hillsong had
Speaker 1: become my world. I'd been volunteering constantly, Almost all my
Speaker 1: friends were there. I invested my time, my faith, my
Speaker 1: emotions in this church. Well, when I let people in
Speaker 1: about my sexuality, I felt more and more of an
Speaker 1: outsider and in a series of things sent me into
Speaker 1: a spiral of anxiety and depression. It was a combination
Speaker 1: of growing isolation, my family's reaction to me coming out,
Speaker 1: and past trauma as a teenager. They all came together.
Speaker 1: I begin to have suicide ideation. I begin to believe
Speaker 1: that in my head, the only solution I had was
Speaker 1: to just end the pain. There was so much happening,
Speaker 1: and I get scared as soon as I realized that
Speaker 1: this was happening in my head. So I text my
Speaker 1: leader and I tell her I don't know what's going on,
Speaker 1: but I'm starting to have these thoughts and they're really scary.
Speaker 1: She tells me, Okay, well, let's do some devotionals, let's
Speaker 1: do some prayer, talk to your therapist. Yeah, yeah, do
Speaker 1: that please, but also do this Christian thing. I start
Speaker 1: to see things around my home that I could use
Speaker 1: to end my life because that was the only way
Speaker 1: and the only solution I saw for the pain I
Speaker 1: was going through. Death felt like the best solution. In
Speaker 1: the moment I started doing self harming. I would grab
Speaker 1: a knife and cut my arm a little bit to
Speaker 1: just feel some pain in my body, and I would
Speaker 1: have to wear sweaters in summer to church because I
Speaker 1: didn't want people to see the cuts, to see anything
Speaker 1: that was happening. My leader knew they were there because
Speaker 1: I showed her, and I told her she would just
Speaker 1: shame me and say, why did you do that? Like
Speaker 1: you just want attention. So it was really hurtful. There
Speaker 1: was a chemical imbalance in my head and I needed
Speaker 1: more support for medication and for professionals, but that's not
Speaker 1: what I was receiving in Hillsong church. I started to
Speaker 1: open the bottle and put them in my hand and
Speaker 1: I texted my leader and I tell her I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. I'm in a lot of pain
Speaker 1: right now. I have this medication in my hand and
Speaker 1: I just want to end it. And she gets scared
Speaker 1: and says, I'm on my way. Don't do it. You're
Speaker 1: bigger than this. You have the power to control this.
Speaker 1: I opened the door for her and I run into
Speaker 1: my room and I leave the door a little cracked,
Speaker 1: but didn't let her come in because I needed to
Speaker 1: be in the darkness. I didn't want to be in light.
Speaker 1: And I was leaning to the wall with the pills
Speaker 1: in my hand, and I start banging on my head
Speaker 1: doing self harm, and she asked, like, what is going on?
Speaker 1: Like my head is just all over the place. She
Speaker 1: finally is able to get to me, comes into my room,
Speaker 1: turns on the lights, takes all the pills that I
Speaker 1: had from my dresser, puts them in her bag, and
Speaker 1: she sees my arms that had been cut. She takes
Speaker 1: all my knives and she says, come on, sit over
Speaker 1: here on the couch with me. We're going to listen
Speaker 1: to this sermon. And I was like what, like in me,
Speaker 1: I needed a hug, Like I needed support. I needed
Speaker 1: someone to cry with me. I needed someone to say
Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, let's go to the hospital.
Speaker 1: You need psychiatric evaluation. And it was basically this pastor
Speaker 1: I forget his name, but he had lost his daughter,
Speaker 1: he had gone through depression because of that, and he
Speaker 1: was now telling people that they needed to wage war
Speaker 1: in their head in order to fight mental illness. And
Speaker 1: so she starts telling me you have a war in
Speaker 1: your head and you need to fight it. You have
Speaker 1: the ability to fight it, and God is going to
Speaker 1: fight with you. And I was like what, Like I
Speaker 1: was so angry and start telling You're like, no, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do that. And she's like, oh, come on,
Speaker 1: you're acting childish. Come sit on the couch. We need
Speaker 1: to talk about this. I was like, this is ridiculous.
Speaker 1: You're making me listen to something like totally not going
Speaker 1: to help. And we started getting into a fight and
Speaker 1: she gets mad and then she says, okay, like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna leave, go to sleep. You can continue to talk
Speaker 1: about this later. I'm just glad you're safe. I'm glad
Speaker 1: you're here. I was like, okay, Well, something good came
Speaker 1: out of that. After that night, I felt more excluded
Speaker 1: from the Hillsong community. One day, I found out I
Speaker 1: hadn't been invited to a Hillsong party. And this sounds
Speaker 1: like a small thing, but it really broke me down.
Speaker 1: I turned to one of the only friends I had
Speaker 1: outside the church, Morgan, with this question, do you like
Speaker 1: me as a person? Like? I don't like me as
Speaker 1: a person, and people are pushing me away and I
Speaker 1: feel really lonely. And so she starts to see the
Speaker 1: switch that had just happened in my head and she says,
Speaker 1: what's going on? What happened? And so I tell her
Speaker 1: that they were starting to push me away, and I
Speaker 1: was really hurt and that it was probably best if
Speaker 1: I wasn't around, because no one wanted me to be
Speaker 1: around if that's how they were treating me. And so
Speaker 1: I start crying with her on the couch and she says,
Speaker 1: do you want to talk to my aunt? And her
Speaker 1: aunt was a pastor at the time in a city
Speaker 1: close by to Boston called Summerville from a United Church
Speaker 1: of Christ church, which is an affirming LGBTQ church, and
Speaker 1: she happened to be also queer and black. So I
Speaker 1: told her, okay, fine, like yeah, like, I don't know
Speaker 1: why you're calling her, but sure. So she quickly goes
Speaker 1: on her phone and gets her Aunt D and she's
Speaker 1: on the phone and she says Aunt, like, I'm here
Speaker 1: with no Emi. Can you talk to her? Aunt D
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god. Yeah. So she passes me
Speaker 1: the phone. I'm sitting on the couch already crying, and
Speaker 1: I get the phone on me and I'm like hello,
Speaker 1: and she says, Hi, no Emmy, it's Aunt D. Well,
Speaker 1: what's going on? And I heard you were having a
Speaker 1: really hard time right now? And I tell her, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I don't know, my head is just really weird
Speaker 1: right now, she says, I'm so sorry that's happening to you.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you've been having a really, really hard time.
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought of getting a psychiatric evaluation at
Speaker 1: the hospital. Morgan got me on the phone with you,
Speaker 1: and I remember clearly where you had a very calm
Speaker 1: conversation with me in comparison to how other people and
Speaker 1: Hillsong we're having that conversation with me, It was like
Speaker 1: night and day. That is Teddy dreaming. Let me wake
Speaker 1: up up really quick. That is Eddy. Step there, he's awake. Okay,
Speaker 1: going back anyway. So yeah, I remember like visibly that
Speaker 1: support that I got from you. I don't know how
Speaker 1: much you remember from that day, but for me, that
Speaker 1: phone call was like life saving and it was really really,
Speaker 1: really monumental in me getting the care and support. And
Speaker 1: I'm getting a little emotional because if I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: had that phone conversation with you, I probably wouldn't be
Speaker 1: sitting here today. I am so grateful that you are
Speaker 1: sitting here today, and I am so incredibly proud of you.
Speaker 1: I remember that experience really really well. What I remember
Speaker 1: was the fear that I heard in my Nies's voice
Speaker 1: that someone who loved you and supports you was afraid
Speaker 1: for you, and that immediately signaled to me that we
Speaker 1: were likely going to have to at least consider whether
Speaker 1: you needed an additional level of supporting care. I think
Speaker 1: the thing that people miss is that little voice inside
Speaker 1: of yourself when you're talking to someone you love that
Speaker 1: tells you we may be in trouble, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, That little voice that's like, they may not
Speaker 1: be okay. And I think sometimes you want to speak
Speaker 1: to that voice you, Oh, no, I'm sure you know
Speaker 1: they're gonna be fine. They would never do anything, this
Speaker 1: is why, you know, and you kind of overtalk that,
Speaker 1: but just asking an additional set of questions when you
Speaker 1: have that moment. So the moment that I could hear
Speaker 1: that fear in her, that for me was like, okay,
Speaker 1: we need to click in and ask a different set
Speaker 1: of questions. And then when I talked to you on
Speaker 1: the phone, my heart just broke, you know, because I
Speaker 1: could hear that you were in a lot of pain,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to be able to sit across from you.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to look at you in
Speaker 1: your eyes to convey how much you are loved and
Speaker 1: respected and appreciated in that you are not alone in this,
Speaker 1: and we are going to get you the help that
Speaker 1: you need. I followed your instructions down to the period
Speaker 1: of like how in the Kama was like down to
Speaker 1: what to do because my brain was so overwhelmed. So
Speaker 1: having those instructions the way that you gave them to
Speaker 1: me of you're going to pack a bag, you're gonna
Speaker 1: get in an uber, You're going to go to the hospital,
Speaker 1: and you're going to tell the receptionists I'm here for
Speaker 1: a psychiatric evaluation, and then I'll take it from there.
Speaker 1: And then you kind of let me know what was
Speaker 1: going to happen after that, where I was going to
Speaker 1: talk to psychiatrists and they were going to let me
Speaker 1: know if I needed to be admitted or what support
Speaker 1: I was going to get. And you made me comfortable
Speaker 1: with taking that first step because I had instructions, I
Speaker 1: knew how to go about it. In comparison to other
Speaker 1: people around me that were trying to support in their
Speaker 1: own way that they believed was right, it was very
Speaker 1: very different where they would use prayer or they would
Speaker 1: use devotionals, or they would make me do a variety
Speaker 1: of things, but it was never actually getting me to
Speaker 1: a hospital because it was to the point where it
Speaker 1: was I needed to go. That was a very difficult day.
Speaker 1: It was for me, and I'm sure it was for you,
Speaker 1: they know, after that moment you went and visited me.
Speaker 1: What did that look like for you? I remember feeling
Speaker 1: a little anxious right like I was outside of my
Speaker 1: comfort zone because I didn't know that area. I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure how to get there, and they were like these
Speaker 1: complex directions, you know. The person who given me the
Speaker 1: directions sounded like it was going to be incredibly complicated.
Speaker 1: And as someone who loves you and cares for you,
Speaker 1: I wanted to get to where you were, you know,
Speaker 1: so I want a straight line, like go down, make
Speaker 1: one left, and you're in the space. And it was
Speaker 1: like you had to go down this backset of stairs
Speaker 1: and around it was this old thing. So I remember being,
Speaker 1: you know, a little anxious about getting there. But I
Speaker 1: remember when I finally walked through, this felt like it
Speaker 1: was like catacombs maze to come through this building and
Speaker 1: you come up the stairs and I came through the door,
Speaker 1: and first of all, when I drove up there were
Speaker 1: the vehicles of your friends. And then when I came
Speaker 1: through the door, here was this network, you know, of people,
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking how beautiful it was to see
Speaker 1: you surrounded because there had been these other moments when
Speaker 1: I had visited individuals and they were there on their own.
Speaker 1: I felt so much better just walking into the room
Speaker 1: and recognizing, like, Okay, you know, your folks were there
Speaker 1: to support you. At the same time, when we started talking,
Speaker 1: my heart was broken again because there hadn't been that
Speaker 1: kind of support from this community that I knew you
Speaker 1: were such a large part of this community, that you
Speaker 1: were supporting with your time, with your effort, with your energy.
Speaker 1: And so we talked a little bit about the other
Speaker 1: people that were on staff, and there wasn't that support
Speaker 1: from them. And so, you know, when you serve in
Speaker 1: any number of professions, you feel a relational connection to
Speaker 1: the other people who serve and that profession. So attorneys
Speaker 1: look at other attorneys, doctors look at other doctors, engineers,
Speaker 1: you know, and as a clergy person, you look at
Speaker 1: other clergy And so I'm in the room and I'm
Speaker 1: happy to be in the room, and I'm glad to
Speaker 1: support you, but I'm also feeling what I think is
Speaker 1: righteous indignation and anger that my clergy siblings aren't in
Speaker 1: the room. Also, this is the place where you show
Speaker 1: up for them every day, and here you are in
Speaker 1: this incredibly difficult moment in the context of your life,
Speaker 1: and the church wasn't showing up for you, and that
Speaker 1: was painful, you know. And I remember, you know, having
Speaker 1: this conversation, not wanting to not wanting to go after
Speaker 1: that other community, but also feeling very protective of you
Speaker 1: and having, you know, like having an Auntie moment, like
Speaker 1: I wanted to go and have a talk with some people,
Speaker 1: like the most important thing was making sure that you
Speaker 1: were receiving the care that you needed, that that particular
Speaker 1: program was a good program for you. But there was
Speaker 1: a part of me that wanted to like roll up
Speaker 1: on that other, those colleagues and say, what in the
Speaker 1: world are y'all doing? You know, how are you not
Speaker 1: showing up in a way that this faithful child of
Speaker 1: God needs you to show up? You know, in this moment,
Speaker 1: when I looked at you, I saw still the pain
Speaker 1: in your face, but I could also see a sense
Speaker 1: of relief, you know, like you were finally being heard
Speaker 1: I did have anger as well because the pastors from
Speaker 1: Hillsong didn't go. But I didn't know how to respond
Speaker 1: to that. I didn't know what that looked like. And
Speaker 1: it seems really off for me because like my dad
Speaker 1: would go to the hospital as him having been a
Speaker 1: pastor and a missionary and a minister, like we would
Speaker 1: go to hospitals, we would go to prison, and we
Speaker 1: would go and talk to people on their deathbed, like
Speaker 1: multiple things, like that's what people are there for in
Speaker 1: your community? Is there for in religious support? That's what
Speaker 1: they're there for as well if that's a big part
Speaker 1: of someone's life. And so I was confused as to
Speaker 1: why they weren't coming, And so that was really eye
Speaker 1: opening for me, and it was a huge catalyst for
Speaker 1: me starting to question even more if they even cared
Speaker 1: about me as a human being. They often say that
Speaker 1: when you're in your lowest moments, those who show up
Speaker 1: are your real friends, your real people, And in that moment,
Speaker 1: there were people from the church who showed up who
Speaker 1: were there as friends, but later shifted how they approached
Speaker 1: me because we hit heads on a lot of big
Speaker 1: conversations and they were we don't we don't speak anymore, obviously,
Speaker 1: but my relationship with you, I feel like it deepened
Speaker 1: from there. Auntie Davida McAlister, she taught me there's a
Speaker 1: difference between tolerated and being affirmed, and I learned what
Speaker 1: real affirmation looks like at her church. Weeks later, I
Speaker 1: went to a service. What a culture shock that was
Speaker 1: for me. I ended up going to Auntie's church and
Speaker 1: I remember they were having gospel drag Sunday and there
Speaker 1: was a black drag queen leading the choir, and she
Speaker 1: was beautiful and amazing and like everything was so good,
Speaker 1: and she was telling us to call her the Chocolate Goddess.
Speaker 1: And then aunt Ye gave a beautiful sermon of affirmation
Speaker 1: and of welcomeness and of like oh, it was just
Speaker 1: so beautiful, so like feeling, and so spiritual filling. It
Speaker 1: was a very different tradition from what I had grown up,
Speaker 1: but it was fine for me because it felt so
Speaker 1: good and I was finally in a place where all
Speaker 1: of me was welcome. And I ended up going to
Speaker 1: Hillsong for the five pm service. I was out of
Speaker 1: Auntie's church by like one pm. Morgan and I grabbed
Speaker 1: lunch and then I head over to Hillsong for the
Speaker 1: five PM, and I noticed the stark difference in me
Speaker 1: in the way that I felt at Auntie's Church and
Speaker 1: the way that I felt a Hillsong for that five PM.
Speaker 1: And a Noemi at Auntie's church was free and was
Speaker 1: openly queer and was just happy and holistically all of me,
Speaker 1: and the God of Auntie was wholly affirming and was
Speaker 1: calling me beloved. But at Hillsong Church, I was just
Speaker 1: another volunteer who was going to help dim these lights
Speaker 1: in the church, and I had to put on a
Speaker 1: production and I couldn't be all of me. I had
Speaker 1: to be this person who needed to pretend they were okay,
Speaker 1: and needed to pretend they weren't queer and needed to
Speaker 1: hide these parts of me. And that that really opened
Speaker 1: my eyes. And after that Sunday, as I was going
Speaker 1: home riding on the train, I was like, that's it.
Speaker 1: I'm done. Auntie helped me confirm what I probably knew
Speaker 1: in my heart, and helped me find the courage to
Speaker 1: ask the right questions before committing myself to any church.
Speaker 1: Sometimes people go for the lowest. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: you were doing literally doing the least, but calling it
Speaker 1: the most and so I was like, Okay, well you
Speaker 1: can come here and you can give you know this money,
Speaker 1: and you could do this. And it's like, yeah, but
Speaker 1: can I serve? Can I sit in the pulpit? Can
Speaker 1: a person preach here? Will you do a same gender
Speaker 1: wedding here? Will you celebrate the birth of a child
Speaker 1: in this family in the same way that you celebrate
Speaker 1: the birth of a child in that family When you
Speaker 1: have identified the individuals who are going to be god
Speaker 1: parents for a child, you know, will all of the
Speaker 1: members of the community be welcome at the altar and
Speaker 1: celebrated in their relationships with this child? Like, what are
Speaker 1: the ways that you communicate to anybody who comes through
Speaker 1: the door that this isn't just a space where you're
Speaker 1: going to be tolerated, but this is a space where
Speaker 1: you will be celebrated as a beloved child of God. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you make that distinction because I was being
Speaker 1: tolerated at Hillsong, where I was allowed to do certain things,
Speaker 1: but there was a limit to what I could do.
Speaker 1: But they wouldn't tell me the limit. They just said
Speaker 1: there was a limit. And I need a place where
Speaker 1: I'm being celebrated because this is what I need in
Speaker 1: my life, and everyone should be celebrated as human beings.
Speaker 1: So can I ask you a question? Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: I'll ask you one final question close. I remember years
Speaker 1: ago there's an organization in the United Church of Christ
Speaker 1: that is called the Coalition, and it is the grouping
Speaker 1: of churches who self identified as open and affirming right.
Speaker 1: And so they're all a part of this coalition, the
Speaker 1: LGBTQ Coalition, and they would have an annual gathering in
Speaker 1: our denomination, separate from the gathering that the larger church
Speaker 1: would have, and one year at that gathering, they talked
Speaker 1: about righteous indignation and lamentation as spiritual practices, like how
Speaker 1: essential it was for people of faith to be able
Speaker 1: to not only acknowledge the rage that some of us
Speaker 1: carry based on things that have happened, but to be
Speaker 1: able to lament the pain that those actions have created,
Speaker 1: to lament the damage that's done to our psyche, to
Speaker 1: our spirit, to our physical bodies, and to understand that
Speaker 1: as a part of our faith, to understand that as
Speaker 1: a part of our walk and our journey. And so
Speaker 1: you talked a little bit about starting to experience that anger,
Speaker 1: But I wonder, like, how have you expressed that. Where
Speaker 1: are the spaces where you've given yourself permission to lament
Speaker 1: that you know the damage that was done to you, Like,
Speaker 1: how are you managing that particular part of the energy.
Speaker 1: Once I was able to get out and I listened
Speaker 1: to my body for the first time because I was
Speaker 1: taught to discus because my body was deceit And when
Speaker 1: I finally reconnected with my body, it all fell and
Speaker 1: I started to cry, and I started to realize and
Speaker 1: lament the money that I spent having to heal that
Speaker 1: welcome home was the most expensive thing I fell for,
Speaker 1: that big sign that they have at the entrance. I
Speaker 1: started to lament the friends, the people that I welcomed
Speaker 1: in and told them it was a safe space, because
Speaker 1: I knew that I was responsible for now them having
Speaker 1: to experience an unsafe space for everyone I had a
Speaker 1: responsibility in their story now and accountability, and to lament
Speaker 1: the lack of qualified leadership around me. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: the lament of losing hundreds of friends, people that I
Speaker 1: thought were my friends, and then ghosting me, blocking me
Speaker 1: on social media when I started to speak out, Because
Speaker 1: when I started to speak out. That's where my rage
Speaker 1: came out. Often, rage and lament can go hand in hand,
Speaker 1: and we should allow ourselves to lament, but there's also
Speaker 1: this righteous anger that comes along with it. And I
Speaker 1: was able to do a lot of that through social
Speaker 1: media because that's where I found a community of ex
Speaker 1: Hillsong members, like my friend Tiffany, like my friend Janice,
Speaker 1: all these people around me that we're also having this
Speaker 1: righteous anger of you fucked us over and excuse my language,
Speaker 1: but yeah, like you fucked us over and we are
Speaker 1: now having to go to psychiatric hospitals, we are now
Speaker 1: having to spend all this money. Where's our accountability? Where's
Speaker 1: our money? Where are all the tides that we gave
Speaker 1: to you, Where's all the free labor that we gave
Speaker 1: to you? Because I would be there for hours on
Speaker 1: end on Sundays and even during the week. So that's
Speaker 1: where righteous anger and tagging pastors on social media and
Speaker 1: for them to finally have someone calling them out. And
Speaker 1: from that righteous anger, we saw the domino effect of
Speaker 1: people listening to the point of where we are here today,
Speaker 1: of the global senior pastor of Hillsong Church having been
Speaker 1: fired and removed with his wife churches closing down and
Speaker 1: disassociating with Hillsong. We're seeing this domino effect of all
Speaker 1: these people is screaming and yelling and lamenting and having
Speaker 1: their righteous anger. And I am one of them, and
Speaker 1: we've seen the effect of what that is and it's
Speaker 1: been very healing and heartwarming to see. Yeah, and there
Speaker 1: is so much power that calms when we can channel
Speaker 1: our anger and our rage. Rage will get you up
Speaker 1: in the morning, it will cause you stay up late
Speaker 1: at night sometimes to make sure that you communicate clearly
Speaker 1: that something has happened that should not have happened. And
Speaker 1: love is a powerful emotion. I'm not doing the either or,
Speaker 1: but you can only have one or the other. But
Speaker 1: sometimes that anger, that rage, you know, we celebrate it
Speaker 1: when we talk about mama bears, you know, who are
Speaker 1: protecting their children, and that way rage is a good thing.
Speaker 1: But we need to talk about the way that rage
Speaker 1: is also helpful and useful to us to undo some
Speaker 1: systems and some practices and behaviors that have just done
Speaker 1: too much. Damna. So I'm with you, Okay, thank you
Speaker 1: for answering that question. That was church for me. I'm good.
Speaker 1: My last question for you. If you could give advice
Speaker 1: to anyone who's listening and is in a church that
Speaker 1: is not affirming, what would you say? I would call
Speaker 1: them beloved, and I would say you are loved beyond
Speaker 1: measure now because of anything you do, or anything you produce,
Speaker 1: or anything you say, but simply because you are and
Speaker 1: you deserve to be in a place where you are
Speaker 1: embraced and celebrate it and affirmed for who you are.
Speaker 1: And if you are not receiving that right now, I
Speaker 1: invite you to find a place where people can celebrate
Speaker 1: the magnificent creation of the divine that you are. And
Speaker 1: God speed until you find that place. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being here with me and for sharing this space,
Speaker 1: and for creating this little safe space we've created. You
Speaker 1: and I hear in this conversation. I think it really
Speaker 1: a came full circle for me that rage was really
Speaker 1: important to me and getting out of a situation I
Speaker 1: knew was harming me. It would be nice to end
Speaker 1: my story to say, one day I just walked out
Speaker 1: of Hillsong, But life isn't like that, and leaving wasn't easy,
Speaker 1: it was messy. I went back because they were my family,
Speaker 1: They were the people I thought were my family, and
Speaker 1: when you're in a crisis, you often want to be
Speaker 1: surrounded by your family, by your friends, the people that
Speaker 1: you know. And so I went to church that Sunday
Speaker 1: because that's where I felt like you needed to be. Now,
Speaker 1: there are people who have experiences when they leave and
Speaker 1: they are gone, but I'm not one of those one
Speaker 1: of the people who, yeah, it was it was a
Speaker 1: messy experience. And I did end up going back twice
Speaker 1: or three times, I don't remember even, which is good
Speaker 1: that I don't remember, because that says a lot. And
Speaker 1: I remember the last sermon that I heard there. Carl
Speaker 1: was preaching from New York. They were showing him live
Speaker 1: in Boston, and he talks about labels and the day
Speaker 1: of putting labels on and that we should only use
Speaker 1: the label of child of Christ. And hearing that really
Speaker 1: like showed me that that was in a safe space
Speaker 1: for me. Like, what am I doing here? If you're
Speaker 1: listening to this and you're identifying with a lot of it,
Speaker 1: and I'm helping you feel validated in your feelings of
Speaker 1: what you're going through currently, you can get out. I'm
Speaker 1: here to tell you there is an exit door. And
Speaker 1: the exit door is really bright and it says e
Speaker 1: x I, and you can turn around and see the
Speaker 1: exit and get up and go. There is hope outside
Speaker 1: of it. You will find family outside of it. You
Speaker 1: will find friends outside of it. I had that fear,
Speaker 1: and I worthy and deserving of better. And when I
Speaker 1: recognize that I am worthy and you are too, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can get up and go. In the next episode,
Speaker 1: I've organized the Hillsong Reunion. I'm heading to New York City,
Speaker 1: the place where so much bad happened within Hillsong. I
Speaker 1: haven't been to the city since I left the church.
Speaker 1: There were too many painful memories. But this reunion is
Speaker 1: all about the people who stood up, spoke out, and
Speaker 1: won't stop fighting for answers.