1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: This episode of Stuff You Missed in History Class is 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: brought to you by one eight hundred flowers. You know 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: what's always in season surprising a friend or a loved 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: one with a bouquet from one flowers dot com. They 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: are perfect for making your friend or loved ones holiday 6 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: season that much more magical and right now, one eight 7 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: hundred flowers dot com has amazing offers on bouquets starting 8 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: at just. One flowers is the only brand that I 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: use to deliver fresh holiday flowers. So to get beautiful 10 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: seasonal bouquets starting at just go to one eight hundred 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: flowers dot com, click the radio icon and enter code stuff. 12 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: That's one eight hundred flowers dot com. Enter code stuff. Hi, 13 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, host of the new house Stuff Works 14 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: Now podcast. Every week, I'll be bringing you three stories 15 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: from our team about the weird and wondrous developments we've 16 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: seen in science, technology, and culture. Fresh episodes will be 17 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: out every Monday on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play Music, and 18 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: everywhere else that fine podcasts are found. Welcome to stufh 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: You Missed in History Class from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy B. Wilson and 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry. We have an amazing, awesome special guest today. Yes, 22 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: it's pretty exciting. Do you want to tell us who 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: you are? Hi? I'm Jason Pora. I do a project 24 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: blog turned book called Rejected Princesses. Yeah, Hi, Hi Jason. 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: So what's funny is we've gotten several letters over the 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: last couple of months of people so excited to tell 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: us that you exist. Um, and we've been planning this 28 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: episode of the show for more than a year. Yeah, 29 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: it's been a while. We've been in contact for quite 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: a bit, quite some time. So for the folks who 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: have not heard about it, tell us what Rejected Princesses is. 32 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: So it is an exploration of badass woman of history 33 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: and myth and uh like one or two literary figures 34 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: that would never make the cut for animated princess usually 35 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: because there's a few too many beheadings. There's a lot 36 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: of beheadings, a lot of beddings, but I illustrate them 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: in that style anyways, and do as researcher write up 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: as I can. Um. I'm not a trained historian and 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: I'm not a trained artist, but you know I'm getting better, 40 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: and yet you are published in both. Yeah. Yeah, it 41 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: feels weird. It feels weird, but it came out Okay. 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: Nobody has yelled at me too bad yet. Well, and 43 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: you have this giant book that we were just remarking 44 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: on before we started rolling. That is quite an impressive 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: heft of your collection, lots and lots of my artwork. 46 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: My first impression, upon like taking out getting the actual 47 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: physical copy, I was like, oh my god, this is 48 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: like a murder weapon. My second impression is why was 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: that my first impression? It is like a legit book. 50 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's as Tracy said, it's signific can't 51 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: in size. Well, and I think when you have been 52 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: writing about things like pirates and murderous queens and and 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: people good people too. For sure, we're going to talk 54 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: about some of them in a bit, but I can 55 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: see how the first thing your mind leaps to might 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: be I can knock somebody out with this. Yeah, yeah, 57 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing. So we're gonna talk to Jason about 58 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: some of your favorite princesses, and then we're going to 59 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: talk about a little bit more generally about rejected princesses. 60 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: Along the way. Also, yeah, okay, so who are some 61 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: of your most favorite princesses in this book? Um, So, 62 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: I'm actually gonna give you all a different answer than 63 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: I give everybody else, because I think that y'all will 64 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: appreciate this. These these two sisters, uh in a way 65 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: that I think most people could not, Hortense and Marie MANCHENI. 66 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: I think I labeled them the divorce pioneers of the Renaissance. 67 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: So Marie was in very nearly married to Louis the 68 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: fourteenth and Hortense was very nearly married to Charles the 69 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: second of England, and both of those fell apart, and 70 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: they had arranged marriages to shall we say, suboptimal. Her 71 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: tenses was worse. Marie's only tried to poison and kill her. Um. 72 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: Hortenses locked her up in a convent, and then when 73 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: she continually sort of got rowdy in there, uh, he 74 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: tried to put increasingly uh strict restrictions on her and 75 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: would take her inheritance, which was one of the greatest 76 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: art collections in all of France at the time. And 77 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: um any pit of a fit of passion, shall we say, 78 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: her husband went through and knocked off all of the 79 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: Genitalia on all the sculptures and then took a bucket 80 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: of black paint and painted over all the naked people. 81 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: He had issues. Yeah, that pains me from an art history, 82 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: like I want to when I build my time machine, 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: I just want to go back and punch him in 84 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: the face. I'm right there with you, like if you 85 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: want to, like, I'll hold um. But yeah, from there, 86 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: the two sort of became this um uh talk of 87 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: the town as they they ran across Europe fleeing their husbands, 88 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: and everybody was sort of talking about because they were 89 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: all trying. They were trying to get divorces, and they 90 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: were taking lovers male and female as they went uh, 91 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: and they were talking of the town in multiple uh countries, 92 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: all the while taking them to court, all the while 93 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: trying to sort of get a divorce, which is not 94 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 1: impossible at the time. And we're some of the only 95 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: the first women to write their own memoirs in their 96 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: own name and clear their name and sort of take 97 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: control of their own story. They were really phenomenally interesting 98 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: human beings that I had never heard of, who are 99 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: now some of my favorite people in his I have 100 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: heard the whole family of sisters because they were what 101 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: five sisters? Yeah, they were the Mazarine nets that there 102 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: were three Mancini sisters and there were two other cousins. 103 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: I want to believe they were all underneath their uncle, uh, 104 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: Cardinal Mazarin I think was his name. Yeah. So I've 105 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: heard them described as like the Kardashians of the Renaissance. 106 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: Does that seem like an apt comparison that would fit? 107 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: I mean, I would argue that they had more substance 108 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: than your average Kardashian or but um, yeah, I think 109 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: that generally fits in terms of the scope of their fame. Okay, well, 110 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: and I think the part about them taking control of 111 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: their own stories actually fits with the Kardashians in a 112 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: way that I think the Kardashians don't get quite enough 113 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: credit for. That's true, That's true. Good point loves the word. 114 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: Holly and I sometimes don't agree on everything. I feel 115 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: ways about things. Uh. Do we want to talk about 116 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: specific incesses? Yes, so we also have some specific princesses 117 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: that we want to talk about. So these are these 118 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: are folks who um listeners to the podcast have written 119 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: in to ask us to talk about and and some 120 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: of them are ones that we have had not quite 121 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: enough information to make a stuffy missed in history class 122 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: podcast about them, because it takes a lot for a 123 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: half an hour podcast, But often there is enough information 124 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: for Jason to make beautiful artwork and the explanation of 125 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: this person's life. Yeah. And then this is sort of 126 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: where what y'all do differs a bit from mine, Like 127 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: I'm I'm very focused on like, oh, I want to 128 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: see this movie, And a lot of times the sourcing 129 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: on the people that I write about is pretty thin, 130 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: like they usually you know, in many cases there's only 131 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: one source and can you like they're the very questionable 132 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: it's like how truthy they really were? Um, and it's 133 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: oftentimes in languages that I don't speak, so I try 134 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: to be transparent about that. But um, a good story 135 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: is a good story. Yeah. So one of our really 136 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: frequent listener requests, which you and I had a conversation 137 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: really recently about how I wanted to do this for 138 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: a long time and I have not been able to. 139 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: But you have a wonderful piece of art and write 140 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: up on her, and that is uh Nora and I 141 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: at Khan, can can you tell me about it? I 142 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: think one of the most amazing stories that I've not 143 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: seen a lot that contradicts this story, and I've I've 144 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: gone and looked. So Nora and i At Khan was 145 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: a honestly got Indian princess. Her mother was white or 146 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: dad was Indian. And she was a Sufi mystic, which 147 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: is a sect of Islam that uh will not let 148 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: you lie. Um is strictly pacifist um. And she was 149 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: a children's book author. She was a musician. She was 150 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: kind of a clutzy air head. She was someone that 151 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: I identified with very personally. I was like, oh Iyah, 152 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: I want to be your friend, um. And then World 153 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: War two broke out and the Nazis invaded Paris, and 154 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: she went and signed up for the British s O, 155 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: the spy Unit, basically which she was an unlikely candidate for, 156 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, entering the service. I have to wonder if 157 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: that whole not being allowed to lie thing would not 158 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: have made her right. You think that wasn't necessarily the 159 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: job for her, and the pacifism part, and also the 160 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: part where she was not really a great fan of Britain. No. 161 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: She she I believe in the interview, went in and 162 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: said Hey, just f y I. Once this is all over, 163 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm going in agitating for India's independence from y'all because 164 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: I hate all y'all. But somehow she she passed the interview. 165 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: They really needed people on the ground there. The average 166 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: lifespan of a radio operator and occupied Paris was, I 167 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: believe six weeks at the time is the And if 168 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: you go and look at the what her instructors wrote 169 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,599 Speaker 1: about her and her reviews, they didn't think she was 170 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: going to last very long. She was basically a sacrificial lamb, 171 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: as best I could tell. And yet she's air dropped 172 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: in and it's on the second or third day that 173 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: she's there that there's a massive roundup of virtually every 174 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: radio operator and occupied Paris and she's the only one left, 175 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: I think day two or three, and she's offered an 176 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: airlift out and she declines. And she then goes on 177 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: to be the soul radio operator and occupied Paris for 178 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: five months um, which is far far longer than anyone 179 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: expect her to go. When she's finally brought down, and 180 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: she she employs various really clever techniques of like sleeping 181 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: on the rooftops and like dying her hair and changing 182 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: clothes and darting in and out of the subways like 183 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: memorizing all sorts of stuff. She eventually is called goes 184 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: down kicking, punching, biting, despite being a lifelong pass fist, 185 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: and then is UH imprisoned and makes several escape attempts, 186 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: lying to her captors all the while, and then nimbly 187 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: darting out across UH rooftops. Despite being a klutz and 188 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: having many many UH instances during her training that spoke 189 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: to such. Was only caught during these escape attempts because 190 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: UH there would be air raids at the same time 191 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: that she had no idea would be happening, and so 192 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: they battened down the hatches, realized that she'd escaped, and 193 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: found her. She was eventually reclassified as one of the 194 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: most dangerous prisoners and subject to incredibly brutal torture which 195 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: she never gave up any information. A lot of what 196 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: we know about her final days apparently comes from her 197 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: having scratched information on the bottom of a cup that 198 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: was passed around to different prisoners who would hear her 199 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: in one of the cells but didn't know who who 200 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: she was, and she would scratch on the bottom of 201 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: the cup and that's how they figured out where she 202 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: was at the very end. Uh. And she died just 203 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: a week or two before her concentration camp was liberated, 204 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: and according to the tales, she died screaming liberty. So uh. 205 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: The she's somebody that I have wanted to do a 206 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: podcast about for a long time. And the reason that 207 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: she first got deferred to later on was because of 208 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: that ending of the story. We had just had a 209 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: whole series of just tragic things and I was like, 210 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: I can't have another downer right now. But then the 211 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: other thing was that that, like, there's basically one book 212 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: about her, and you can verify some of the stuff 213 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: in it, but it's it's tricky for us as a 214 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: podcast to just rely on one book. Yeah. Schrebonni Busso 215 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: I think is the name of the person who wrote it. Uh. 216 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,599 Speaker 1: And they source about as well as they can, but 217 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: they're not an impartial uh narrator, I would say. And 218 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: there are are calls that have been written in response 219 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 1: that take issue with some of the particulars. I think 220 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: that there's one that was going around that's extremely long 221 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: that goes into a lot of detail as to which 222 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: concentration camp she was in at the end of her life, 223 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: and makes the argument that it's not dach House is 224 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: a different one. Um, it's hard to tell. I think 225 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: that the basic outlines of it are probably true, and 226 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: that perhaps part of it was inflated. A lot of 227 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: what we know about her final uh days, I think 228 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: comes from what was her named Vera Atkins, the woman 229 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: who was running the s o E, who went personally 230 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: and tried to find out what had happened all the 231 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: women that she'd put in the field. And so you 232 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: have to take everything that Vera said, you know, as 233 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: verbatim truth, which is also quite difficult. Yeah, that's I 234 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: love her story. I did too. I I certainly have 235 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: a little bit of a fondness for stories of occupied Paris. Obviously. 236 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: I think about when we had April Callahan on the 237 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: show and we talked about how many women were the 238 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: resistors through fashion, and I have that like sort of 239 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: fantasy thing where I'm like, I wonder if any of 240 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: them helped her change, like helped her with her her 241 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: various disguises. Yeah, there's all sorts of stories to be 242 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: written here. Um. I would love to see her pop 243 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: up in more stuff, because she's amazing. Everybody I've written about, 244 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: I think she's the one that I can most personally 245 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: identify with because you know, she was a weirdo, outcast 246 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: artist and I'm like, yeah, I get that, who then 247 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: was incredibly like brave in her own and she she 248 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: stepped up. And that's something that I've tried to take 249 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: to heart whenever I'm up against like unbelievable odds or 250 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: just the entire world seems to be going crazy. You know, 251 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: you realize that she stepped up. She was a normal 252 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: human beings. So we're so many people in this book, Uh, 253 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: so many people that you all have covered. So many 254 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: people in history were ordinary people have just stepped up. Ye. 255 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: So before we get to some other amazing women from 256 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: this book, let's take a movement for a word from 257 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: some sponsors. So we have been fans here for a 258 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: while of the Great Courses Plus. We love watching their 259 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: different video courses and we both learned so much from them, 260 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: and we really really want you to discover the Great 261 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: Courses Plus two. 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When you sign up, you can check 271 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: out the course that we just watched, which was People 272 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: and Cultures of the World. I love this. I feel 273 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: like culture is the best way to really understand history. 274 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: That's always been my inn It's why I love fashion 275 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: from different eras. So with the Great Courses Plus, you 276 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: can watch as many lectures as you want anytime anywhere 277 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: from your mobile device, your laptop, or even on your television. 278 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: Sign up today and get one month free. As one 279 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: of our listeners, go to the Great Courses Plus dot 280 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: Com slash Stuff once again. That is the Great Courses 281 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: Plus dot Com slash Stuff. Holly, I think the next 282 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: person that we wanted to ask Jason about is one 283 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: of your favorites. Yeah, because it bumps up against our 284 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: episode about the Achimen and Empire. So of course I 285 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: love it. Uh, tomyris yeah, so to Myrus. According to 286 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: a number of sources, I think Herodotus is the main one. 287 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: Uh was a queen of one of the Scythian or 288 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: Scythian I've actually never been sure how to pronounce yet. 289 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: I will not speak with confidence on that. Okay, I'm 290 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: gonna go with Scythian, and I apologize to people who 291 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: know better out there or if you just suddenly conjured 292 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: an image of Darth maul go um so Uh. She 293 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: was one of the Scythian tribes that sure, the sort 294 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: of nomadic um tribes is a loose confederation that the 295 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: Greeks are just like, Yeah, they're over there near the 296 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: Black Seat somewhere, and they've were the inspiration for a 297 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: lot of the Amazon legends and have been tied to 298 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: various ethnicities as far as Uh like Mongolia proto Iranian, 299 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: Uh from the Caucass Caucasus, Uh, Caucusus. There you go. 300 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: I can't talk. It's okay, we often can't. But yeah, 301 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: nomadic step step people that were incredible horse archers um 302 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: and she was their queen. And so, as the story goes, 303 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: Cyrus being on his role running over different countries and 304 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: taking them over comes to her and it's like, hey, 305 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: so your husband's dead. You wanna you wanna ah, And 306 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: she's like no. It's like, well fine, I'm gonna conquer 307 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: you then, and she's like, don't come over here, and 308 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: he's just like, I'm coming over there, don't come over here, 309 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: coming over and she after some some back and forth 310 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: where he like lays out a banquet and gets everybody 311 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: drunk and then it kills them and like takes her 312 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: son hostage, and the son commits suicide. Bad stuff happens. 313 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: She gets sick of him and wages war on him, 314 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: uh and ends up defeating him in battle and cutting 315 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: off his head. And the big stinger to the whole story, 316 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: as Herodotus tells it, is that she stuffs his head 317 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: in a wine sack full of blood and says, blood 318 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: thirsty as you are, you have now had your fill 319 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: of blood. I've given you your fill of blood. He 320 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me that you thought of your book as 321 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: a murder whipping. It's it's a great story. It's um. 322 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: There are other accounts of how Cyrus the Great died. Uh, 323 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: So it's really hard to tell whether that one is 324 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: true or not um, but to Mirus is nevertheless held 325 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: up by you know, various cultures as one of their 326 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: four mothers. And so, uh, she's now the playable character 327 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: in the Newest Civilization game. Yeah, I've heard that. I 328 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: haven't played y. When I was confirming how to pronounce 329 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: her name, the first thing that came up was like 330 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: the video about the game, and how like, here's our 331 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: new playable character. Here you go. Yeah, And what's funny 332 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: about that is that they actually built it into the 333 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: game mechanics reference to her story where she kind of 334 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: had a truce going with Cyrus at the beginning of 335 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: it and then he basically betrayed her and she got 336 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: bloody revenge on him. So if you betray her, if 337 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: you come up with an alliance with her in the 338 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: game and betray her, she will like get really mad 339 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: at you. I like, how you skipped past the part 340 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: where her culture uh allegedly Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I 341 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: mean there was god knows how many hoary stories about 342 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: the misogyny. They would eat their their elders and they're 343 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: sick and just yeah, all sorts of really bizarre dietary habits. 344 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: And as I was reading through that, I got down 345 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of like whether that was what really 346 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: happened or whether that was you know, their enemies. Yeah, yeah, 347 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's fascinating to think about. Uh, you 348 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: know it is. I mean we've talked so many times 349 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: on the podcast at various points on the curve about 350 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: the taboo nature of certainly cannibalism, but also how you know, 351 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: when writing about a particularly brutal enemy, you start to 352 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: attach really weird behaviors to them that are taboo to 353 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: kind of like shore up your defenses, and that's a 354 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: better person in the conflict. Yeah. A lot of times, 355 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: to me, the brutality is already bad enough, like you 356 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: didn't really need to go at in all of that 357 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: other stuff. But yeah, I mean that that runs throughout 358 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: pretty much every story I've ever covered. Like the most 359 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: outrageous things about say jinga bonde of of Nidoga, mother 360 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: of Angola, that she you know, conquered a tribe of 361 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: cannibals and you know, eight babies and drank blood and 362 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: murdered her own brother. Like all of that is probably false, 363 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: uh you know, come up with by Portuguese, but she 364 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: was still an enormously fierce woman who really like fought 365 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: the Portuguese from the jungle for forty years. Uh. It 366 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: happens in almost every entry that I've written about this 367 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: is it's it's a bizarre running feature of history that 368 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: women warlords are ascribed I think, far more fearsome qualities 369 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: than perhaps they actually had. Yeah. Yeah. One of the 370 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: things that comes up in your your writing to my 371 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: wrist story is your use of paraphrase, where you write 372 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: in modern parlance. I used vernacular. It's true what is 373 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: really being communicated, which is very very funny. Um, And 374 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like, when do you decide it's time for 375 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: that versus not. I don't know, it's whatever makes me laugh, 376 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: I guess, um. Like I my my whole goal for 377 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: the voice of the project is that if I'm telling 378 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: you this story at a party, I don't want it 379 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: to be an ivory tower thing that's really inaccessible and 380 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: while I talk, you know, in kind of a ridiculous fashion. Anyways, 381 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: some of the reviews of the book are just like, 382 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: it's a little unseemly that, you know, we're supposed to 383 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: believe that a thirty four year old man uses phrases 384 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: like besties. I'm like I do. I'm just a weird dude. 385 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: It's okay if you don't like me, But I don't 386 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: say that I'm doing it as an affectation. That's just 387 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: how I talk. Odd criticism people have had to say, 388 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: not so much anymore. But when Holly and I first 389 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: came on the show, there were people who like insisted 390 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: that we were affecting the way that we spoke because 391 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: we were young and we were in Yeah, I was, 392 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: I was the thirty nine at that point, so I 393 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: think it was thirty nine. There's a lot of so much. 394 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: Oh yes, Next we get to one that Tracy picked 395 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: and I know she's excited about. Yeah, uh said to 396 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: al Hera for so many reasons. Number one, there's piracy 397 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: involved and another amazing woman. So the story of Sa 398 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 1: is also very thinly sourced. We don't actually know her 399 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: real names. Idel He is a title that means like 400 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: honored lady or something aft exactly how it translates out. 401 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: But the story as it goes is that um come 402 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: the Spanish Inquisition time. She was living in um A Landolus, 403 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: the Morrish region of Spain. It was kicked out by 404 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 1: Fernando and Isabella's inquisition goes to Morocco, ends up through 405 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: various intermarriages, sort of running part of it. So yeah, 406 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: she ran things for thirty years and was repelling different 407 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: Portuguese and Spanish fleets. Uh. The Iron Lady of the 408 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: Arab muscle world was her title. She got many titles, actually, 409 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: the ruler of Tetuan a barbaros and pirate of Tetuan. 410 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: Uh took the reins from her husband, who was sort 411 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: of the good cop to her bad cop. He died, 412 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: then she remarried and made her new husband come to her, 413 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: which was kind of unheard of, and just was a 414 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,719 Speaker 1: boss for quite some time, and then kind of faded 415 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: into obscurity according to most accounts, as I think her 416 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: stepson UH sort of deposed her and from there we 417 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: don't really have any record of her UM. But yeah, 418 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: also thinly source of very few of the records are 419 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: in English. I found all of one book that really 420 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: got into the nitty gritty of it UM, and it's 421 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: a pretty old book, and that's an inhal algy of 422 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: like here's all the interesting people ever to come out 423 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: of Morocco. UM. But I don't think anybody doubts that 424 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: she existed, but what her actually name was, what she 425 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: looked like, all the details of that. I think even 426 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: her birth and death years are kind of unknown. I'm 427 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: glad we've gotten to talk about some of these less 428 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: sourceable women. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's one of those things 429 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: that we've talked about. It like when we do our 430 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: six and possible episodes episodes, uh that there are some 431 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: that are just so compelling, but there's not enough for 432 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: us to fill outcast hoarding little bits of scrap papers 433 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: to try to make a whole episode totally. Yeah. I 434 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: did an entry on a woman uh named Turga Tao 435 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: who has all of one paragraph written about her anywhere 436 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: and now Pollyanus I think that's the name of the 437 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: Pollinus the historian, and I managed to sort of fill 438 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: it out from Infer and says of like, okay, well, 439 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: this is what the audience at that time would have known, 440 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: like if she's coming from this region, she would have 441 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: also been a Scythian queen much like to myrus, and 442 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: like fill out all of that. This is probably what 443 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: she looks like. I can give her tattoos that would 444 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: be of that ilk and like flush it out to 445 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: a decent enough story, but like the source on that 446 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: is one paragraph, like there was not much. So there's 447 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: a lot of questions when you go through history, especially 448 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: as you go back farther. So we're gonna talk a 449 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: little bit more about your process and that kind of stuff. 450 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: After another brief word from a sponsor. The holiday is 451 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: almost here. You do not have time to go to 452 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: the post office. I don't, I don't. There is traffic, 453 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: there is parking with my case, there is walking to 454 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: the post office, and then once you're there, it's packed 455 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: with other people mailing holiday gifts and packages. So you 456 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,959 Speaker 1: can use stamps dot com instead. With stamps dot com, 457 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: you can avoid all the hassle of going to the 458 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: post office during the busy holiday season, and everything that 459 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: you would do at the post office you can instead 460 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: do right from your desk by in print official US 461 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: postage using your own computer and printer print postage for 462 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: any letter or package the instant that you need it, 463 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: and then just hand it off to the person who 464 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: delivers your mail to you. It is so easy and convenient. 465 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: Right now, you can sign up for stamps dot com 466 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: and use our promo code stuff for this special offer. 467 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: It is a four week trial plus a one dollar 468 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: bonus offer which includes a digital scale and postage. Don't wait, 469 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: go to stamps dot com and before you do anything else, 470 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: click on the microphone at the top of the homepage 471 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: and type in stuff that stamps dot com and enter stuff. 472 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: So I also wanted to make sure that we talk 473 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: to you about your process of working on this whole thing. 474 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: How do you decide which of these amazing women to 475 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: write about and draw? Uh, it's kind of ad hoc. Uh. 476 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: Part of it is what sources do I have available? Um, 477 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: there's many that I've just sort of had to give 478 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: up or put a pause button on because I can't 479 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: find out more about them at least yet. Um. And 480 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: all I've got various readers has been enormously helpful in 481 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: helping source stuff, but it takes a while. Most of 482 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: what I look for person has to have a personality, 483 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: agency and conflict. Uh. If you don't have any conflict, 484 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: it's boring. If they don't have any personality, you know, 485 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: it's also if you don't you know, any conflict, it's 486 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: a resume. They sort of skate to the end, right, 487 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: It's just they can do whatever they want. If they 488 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: don't have any personality, it's boring. If they don't have 489 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: any agency, it's a tragedy. Uh. And I don't want 490 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: to cover any of those. So I want someone who 491 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: like doesn't have to win, doesn't even have to be 492 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: a good person, but puts up a good fight and 493 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: has an interesting story to it, Like I come at 494 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: it from sort of a movie making background. Uh, So 495 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: that's sort of what I look for and in terms 496 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: of doesn't even have to have much of an arc, 497 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: but like this happened, this is interesting, um and interests me. 498 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: And like those aren't steadfast rules. I've certainly covered people 499 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: that you know, don't quite hit that, but that's sort 500 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: of the guidelines I look for. And then I just 501 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: try and go for as diverse as humanly possible. Like 502 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: putting together the table of contents for this book, I 503 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: had this massive spreadsheet that was tracking different eras sort 504 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: of different personality types, rating whether it's p G PG 505 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: thirteen or are uh, and then different representations like LGBT 506 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: and UH, you know, different ethnicities and different religions, disabilities, 507 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: like I wanted to have a very wide range of people. 508 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: Beyond that, I've got a map interface on the website 509 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: at Google Maps of like with different pens for all 510 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: the different entries, and I sort of use that as 511 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: a to do list, Like wherever there's not a pen, 512 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: I'll try and look up. It was like, Oh, I 513 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 1: don't have anything for Chile, I'll go find a Chilean heroin. 514 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: That's perfect. You kind of uh segue delightfully into our 515 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: next question, which is that, Uh, you do have a 516 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: lot of diversity, and you talk about women often that 517 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: are from minority or press cultures, but at the end 518 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: of the day, you are a white guy, straight white 519 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: dude for Kentucky. So how do you sort of approach 520 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: things in a way, like what is what's your sort 521 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: of um kind of personal ethics going into that and 522 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: how you write about them. Everybody's the hero of their 523 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: own story, so I'm not gonna write something just to 524 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: slag someone off, um, and I'm trying to harold and 525 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: celebrate different cultures and different types of stories. There's so 526 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: many different things that just are far more interesting to 527 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: me than a bunch of Frozen sequels. Especially have Like 528 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: I've got a degree in film criticism and I worked 529 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: in the animation industry for a number of years. I 530 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: know movies backwards forwards, upside down, and I get really 531 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: bored seeing the same things over and over and over again, 532 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: especially knowing that they could have been more interesting and 533 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: more different, and get boiled down to something that feels 534 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: very similar. So I try and get stuff that is 535 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: uh more farther afield in terms of how I go 536 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: about rep presenting it. UM, I try and find sources 537 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: written by people that are close to the subject matter. UM. Obviously, like, 538 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: I'm not the ideal candidate to be writing about a 539 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,239 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff, and the Internet is all too 540 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: happy to let me know that. UM. But I do 541 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: my best, and I admit fallibility where you know I can, 542 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: and like I issue corrections. I have a whole uh 543 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: certificate that I give out that says, uh, so and 544 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: so is smarter than me in perpetuity uh for a 545 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: good correction, because it's better that it be correct than 546 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: my ego be intact. Um. Beyond that, I try, And 547 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: when it's an when it's a culture that takes its 548 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: storytelling as a sacred art and has had it repeated 549 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: verbatim through the years for centuries, on and on and on, 550 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: and I it would be remiss of me too in 551 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: any way alter that I do everything I can to 552 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: contact that that tribe or that people and sort of 553 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: get sign off on that. I've talked to U. Mescalero 554 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: Apache about story I did on lows In one of 555 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: the Lows and and and Gullion, two of the Apache women. 556 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: I talked to the Wardman tribe of Northern Australia about 557 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: a legend they have about tree gollam thing that was 558 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: defeated by sticky bread. It was a pretty fun story um, 559 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: but in the bounds. It's not in the book, but 560 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: it is on the web for fruit. Look up the 561 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: entry on one Gala, look on the map and look 562 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: from the pin on Northern Australia. Ums making the best. 563 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: It's pretty great. I love when baked goods saved the 564 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: day is absolutely what happens in that story. I talked 565 00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: to uh Pollowan people that Native Tasmanians, regarding depictions of 566 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: one of their number, because there's cultural taboos about um 567 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: depictions of the dead for Palawan people. So there's a 568 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: lot of stuff that all stumble over. But I try 569 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: to be very transparent about it, and like I'm trying 570 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: to do my best. This isn't coming from a place 571 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: of like me personally profiting or anything. I just want 572 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: these stories to get out there. If that's appropriate, great. 573 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: How long does it take you to do one of these, 574 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, image story combos. I'm imagining based on our 575 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: show that there's a wide range. There is a wide range. Um. 576 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: The fairytale ones tend to go a lot quicker because 577 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: there's not as much historical checking, but there is a 578 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: lot of trying to situate. Okay, when did this fairytale arise? 579 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: What uh um cultural reference would it be making? Like 580 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, when say Disney does Beauty and the Beast. Okay, 581 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: they clearly set that in a very specific time period 582 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: in France. Why So it's a same sort of hunt 583 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: for visual reference for any sort of fairy tale I 584 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: doe um and those. So for the book, it's sort 585 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: of the one big poster image and those can take 586 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: anywhere between you know, averages eight to twelve. There's one 587 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: in here that features every single person in the entire book, 588 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: and that took a hundred twenty hours to do. Um. 589 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: It is a ludicrous amount of time to do that one. 590 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: But most of them are eight to twelve hours per 591 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: per illustration. Recently, I started doing more of a comic 592 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: style format, whereas opposed to just one image and here's 593 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: a wall of text, it's here's one poster and here 594 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: it's sort of the cover to a comic that's got 595 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: text interspersed with it. It's sort of like an infographic 596 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: meets comic info comic. I don't know what i'd call it, but, um, 597 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: those take a lot longer. Uh, that is easily fifty 598 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: hours of work her, Um, which is really I mean 599 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: the fact that I'm able to put out twenty page 600 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: comic every two weeks by myself, I think it's pretty good, 601 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: especially because I'm I'm also doing a ton of research. 602 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: Like I'll read a book or two per entry, and 603 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: like I read pretty quick, but it'll still take me 604 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: like two three days to get through that then do 605 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: all the visual reference. Meanwhile, I'm trying to keep up 606 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: with the website and people are like, why haven't you posted? 607 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: Are you coming back? And I'm like, I'm working so hard. 608 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: Please sleep is for babies, Jason, Yeah, that's what I understand. Yeah, 609 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: we haven't really touched on your art very much in 610 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: all of this, and I know you said that you 611 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: are uh not necessarily like a classically trained artist at all. 612 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: So can you tell us a little bit about your 613 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: art background and how you kind of came to start 614 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: working in this animation style and apply it to historical stories. So, Uh, 615 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: I used to work a DreamWorks animation, but not as 616 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: what people would think of in terms of an animator. 617 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: I wasn't drawing and stuff. This is a closer to 618 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: physics programming. It was very very technical sort of artwork fire, smoke, water. Um, 619 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: it's a lot of programming. Uh. And so I didn't 620 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: really know how to draw. I would go to life 621 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: drawing classes, but they were uninstructed, uninstructed, so just have 622 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: a model there and you draw and you'd I had 623 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: us most from people sitting next to me were some 624 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: of the best artists in the world that were just 625 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: whipping out amazing stuff. And I'm like, I want to 626 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 1: do better. Um. And when I left DreamWorks, I knew 627 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: that I wanted I had a bunch of different um 628 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: ideas and stuff I wanted to do at a novel 629 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: fully written, a couple of graphic novels ready to go. Uh. 630 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: The Princess thing came out of weirdly enough, just a 631 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: lunchtime conversation I had with a bunch of coworkers when 632 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: Frozen came out. Uh, there's a really terrible clickbait article 633 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: going around about Frozen as like twelve reasons the Frozen 634 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: girls are bad role models, and it's like, well, if 635 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 1: they're bad role models, we can come up with way 636 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: worse ones. What is the worst idea you can come 637 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: up with? And it's one of these, you know, lunch 638 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: time conversation. We just bandy back and forth, and the 639 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: worst idea we came up with out of that conversation 640 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: was Nabokov's Lolita, which is a truly terrible idea. It's 641 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: such a bad idea that I had to see it 642 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: exists because I'm a terrible human being. Um, I wouldn't 643 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: do that entry nowadays, but that's sort of where it 644 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: started from. Weirdly enough, but I was also tossing out 645 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of people that I'd heard about on Wikipedia 646 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: just because I'm an info junkie, like Budhica, the first 647 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 1: century English queen who burnt in London to the ground 648 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: killed seventy thousand Romans, or Jingle Bondi, the mother aing 649 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: goal that I've mentioned earlier. Uh, and my coworkers are like, 650 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: how do you even know all that? And it's like, 651 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: how do you not? Everybody should know this? And so 652 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 1: when I left DreamWorks it was sort of a lark. 653 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: I put up twelve of them that sort of ran 654 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: the gamut. The tagline was awesome, awful or offbeat. It 655 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: was just people that were morally gray and just weird. 656 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: And it was also stars of Wikipedia. It was not 657 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: It was not good, but it went viral nonetheless, and 658 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 1: people really wanted me to do more. So I kept 659 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: doing more, and I got more thorough with my research, 660 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: better with the drawing, and it's evolved a lot since 661 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: its early beginnings. That's so cool. Now, Yeah, I have 662 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: to wonder if you'll ever de rejected princes. I do 663 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: have a little burn folder sitting around of different people 664 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: that I'd love to cover that are like really odd 665 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: dudes like Joshua Norton, the Emperor of the United States 666 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: and Protector oft of Mexico. Oh man, I really want 667 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: to go as him for Halloween one year, But if 668 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: you look at pictures of him, he basically just looks 669 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,919 Speaker 1: like a Confederate war general with like a crazy feather 670 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: in his hat and that doesn't fly. No, Uh, did 671 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: you have other stuff? Thank you so much, thank you 672 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: treat Yeah, tell everyone where they can find you and 673 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: your book. So the website has rejected princesses dot com. 674 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: I continue posting stuff on there almost every week or two. 675 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: I should have another one up today or tomorrow. Uh. 676 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: And the book is available anywhere you can get it Amazon, Barnes, 677 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: and Noble, pretty much any bookstore, but support your local bookstores. 678 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: Local bookstores are great. Yes, you are going to be 679 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: You're we're leaving from here to go to one. That's true. 680 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: It's true. Indicator. Nice, nice, Thank you again so much 681 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: for spending time with us. And now everyone knows what 682 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: to get the princess in their life. Maybe isn't exactly 683 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: the song you dance, I will say. The language tends 684 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: to be a little. Yeah. You have the stories rated 685 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: in the books. Parents know what they can and can't share. Yeah, 686 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: the rating them. So every single entry has sort of 687 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: a one to five. PG two, PG thirteen two are 688 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: sort of rating kind of as well as content warnings. Um, 689 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,919 Speaker 1: I've stripped down the swearing. There's only like a very 690 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: very small amount of swearing in the book, and it's 691 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: usually quotes from other people I guess opposed to me 692 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,399 Speaker 1: doing it. Um. But there's some rough content in there. 693 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: It's not it's not stuff that I shy away from. 694 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: And even people that you know about, like I cover 695 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: the stuff that often gets stripped out from their stories, 696 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: like you know, Harriet Tubman is arsonist, spymaster sort of stuff, um, 697 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: or what Lynching actually entailed. So that's more towards the 698 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: end of the book, but so people will know what 699 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: they're getting when they get into it. But it's there's 700 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: a lot of really interesting stories in there. This is 701 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: the book that I wish I had i'd had when 702 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: I was twelve. I would have killed for those I 703 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: think most twelve year olds would have killed for this. 704 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: So laring uh, do you have listener mail tracing to 705 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: this is from Mark and it is about our recent 706 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: podcast on the Attica prison uprising. He sent it to 707 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: us after part one and Mark says, unfortunately, the conditions 708 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 1: described in part one of your Attica podcast are still 709 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: the conditions in California prisons today. The thirty cents a 710 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: day is a bit high. My brother in law had 711 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: a very good office job at eighteen cents a day. 712 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: There's no hot water except in the kitchen, i e. 713 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: If you boiled some, and that the doctors are okay 714 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: if you can see them. People die of diabetes due 715 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: to insulin shock on the way to prison because they 716 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,479 Speaker 1: have no access to insulin for prolonged period of time. 717 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: English language mail often takes a month to reach the recipient, 718 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: partly due to staff shortage and partly because the prison 719 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: workers doing the work decided to keep mail, especially magazine 720 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,280 Speaker 1: for themselves. To get your own cell with a luxury, 721 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: Most inmates are triple bunked in a dormitory that was 722 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: once something else, like an indoor basketball court, and because 723 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: there wasn't enough medical care, doctors, or money for the population, 724 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: a toothache often meant pulling the tooth rather than fixing 725 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: a cavity. This is not just one prison that was multiple. 726 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: As my family member was moved. Over the years, illegal 727 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: drugs and cell phones were available for sale from the 728 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: corrections officers, although I'm not sure how they were paid for. 729 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 1: In the early some of this became more widely known 730 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 1: and conditions improved somewhat. Triple bunks no longer had the 731 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,760 Speaker 1: top bunk filled. Inmates were allowed to use a camera 732 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: at the prison hospital to communicate with doctors outside, but 733 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: even as recently as certain valuable inmates would not be 734 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: released because their jobs in keeping the prison running was 735 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: too important. After federal oversight started, my family member was 736 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: asked to create fake menus as part of the prisons 737 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: reporting to the federal board to show that nutrition levels 738 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: had been improved, but he said the food served did 739 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: not improve bologny sandwiches, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and 740 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: tofu based food where the typical meals. Occasionally they received 741 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 1: fresh vegetables, often when recalled due to salmonella or arriving 742 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: in create smart quote not been for human consumption. The 743 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruled that California could not imprison slave labor 744 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: like that and ordered these inmates released. It's a bit 745 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: of a conspiracy fer theory, but family members who were 746 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: caught complaining, either through the male sensor or outside of 747 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: prison well on parole, often found their family member was 748 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: given additional demeaning work, tortured, or, in the case of parole's, 749 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: had drugs planted on them to have them convicted. Yet again, 750 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: I could go on, but as a family member supporting 751 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: a highly educated inmate for a white collar crime, it's 752 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 1: disappointing that even after this incident forty years later, things 753 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: hadn't improved, at least in California. What they're missing, though, 754 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: is activist population. Most of the prisoners were in there 755 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: for drug dealing or possession, which can which continued with 756 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: the help of officers, and no longer have the mental 757 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: capacity to organize a rebellion, although there were some hunger strikes. 758 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: If this seems far fetched and I don't blame you, 759 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: I can send you links to websites where family members 760 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: have been discussing this for years, and online forums and 761 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 1: how to make our family member inmates more comfortable. I 762 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: don't want anyone thinking Attica is a chapter that's behind us. 763 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 1: It's not just history. It's also very current. But because 764 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: family members believe the corrections, officers, unions are out to 765 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: get them, no one is reporting it to the press. 766 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,879 Speaker 1: It's ad uh. I know that's a very dark note 767 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: to end on for what was a very chipper podcast. 768 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: It is bound and Mark sent us this literally within 769 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: hours of the first part of our Attica UH podcast 770 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: going live. We do talk a little bit more in 771 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: the second part about how a lot of the conditions 772 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: that we were talking about have not changed. But this 773 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,439 Speaker 1: is much more detailed than we went into and it's 774 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: also not at all the only first person account that 775 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: we have heard since the first part of that podcast 776 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: was released. So thank you Mark for writing. Thank you 777 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: again Jason for coming to hang out with us today. 778 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: You want to just say, work out of our offices 779 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,439 Speaker 1: going forward? Sure, uh, if you would like to write 780 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: to us, We're at history podcast that how stuff works 781 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 1: dot com. We're also on Facebook at Facebook dot com, 782 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: slash miss in history, and on Twitter at miss in history, 783 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: our tumblers miss in history dot tumbler dot com, or 784 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,319 Speaker 1: on Pinterest and Instagram at miss in history. You can 785 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 1: come to our website, which is missed in history dot com. 786 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: You will find show notes for every episode that we 787 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: have ever done. We will have a link to rejected 788 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: Princes in there. You will Yeah, you'll also have an 789 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: archive of all of our episodes that we have ever done. 790 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: And you can come to our parent company's website, how 791 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com to learn about anything your heart desires. 792 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: So you can do all that and a whole lot 793 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: more at how stuff works dot com or missed in 794 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: History dot com. For more on this and thousands of 795 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: other topics, is it how stuff works dot com.