1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,676 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 2: All I think about besides my kids, are these pills? 3 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:36,636 Speaker 2: How many can I take? When can I take them? 4 00:00:36,636 --> 00:00:38,196 Speaker 2: Where can I get them? How can I keep it 5 00:00:38,236 --> 00:00:43,716 Speaker 2: a secret? I was a full blown attic and I 6 00:00:43,876 --> 00:00:46,436 Speaker 2: was a full time mom. 7 00:00:47,676 --> 00:00:51,396 Speaker 1: Shortly after Laura Cathcart Robins had her second child, she 8 00:00:51,516 --> 00:00:56,396 Speaker 1: developed a crippling anxiety disorder and severe insomnia. Within a 9 00:00:56,436 --> 00:01:00,876 Speaker 1: few years, she was addicted to sleeping pills. Laura was ashamed. 10 00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:03,916 Speaker 1: She felt like motherhood came so much more easily to 11 00:01:03,996 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 1: her friends, and so for years she kept her addiction 12 00:01:07,316 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: a secret, until one day she reached a breaking point. 13 00:01:11,836 --> 00:01:15,636 Speaker 2: The mom that I imagine myself to be that I needed 14 00:01:15,676 --> 00:01:21,276 Speaker 2: everyone to see me as failed. That image shattered. 15 00:01:24,796 --> 00:01:28,796 Speaker 1: On today's episode when the mask of perfection falls away, 16 00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:35,156 Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 17 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:37,916 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 18 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Laura wrote a 19 00:01:51,556 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 1: memoir called Stash My Life in Hiding, and in it 20 00:01:55,276 --> 00:01:58,836 Speaker 1: she describes a difficult childhood and how she eventually worked 21 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:02,356 Speaker 1: her way into an entertainment publicist job in Los Angeles. 22 00:02:03,036 --> 00:02:06,076 Speaker 1: That's where she met her husband, a film and TV producer, 23 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:10,316 Speaker 1: and they became a sort of Hollywood power couple. Laura 24 00:02:10,356 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 1: loved the glissy, fantastical world of entertainment, a world where 25 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:17,036 Speaker 1: she could hang out on TV sets and catch a 26 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:19,756 Speaker 1: ride with celebrities on their private jets. 27 00:02:20,556 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 2: I was new to this world. 28 00:02:23,516 --> 00:02:23,716 Speaker 1: You know. 29 00:02:23,796 --> 00:02:25,916 Speaker 2: The world I had grown up in was very poor. 30 00:02:26,116 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 2: My mother was on welfare, like shoplifting groceries on welfare 31 00:02:30,476 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 2: kind of thing. So this very lux world was new 32 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 2: to me and very glamorous. And I had grown up 33 00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:39,156 Speaker 2: in front of the TV. Everything that I wanted to 34 00:02:39,196 --> 00:02:42,236 Speaker 2: be was on television, and so now here I was 35 00:02:42,276 --> 00:02:44,716 Speaker 2: immersed in this world that I had grown up watching, 36 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:47,556 Speaker 2: and I embraced that. 37 00:02:47,676 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 1: Moment you mentioned that everything you wanted to be was 38 00:02:50,676 --> 00:02:52,596 Speaker 1: on TV, tell me a bit more about that. What 39 00:02:52,636 --> 00:02:53,316 Speaker 1: do you mean by that? 40 00:02:54,156 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 2: I mean, that's how I knew what adults were like. 41 00:02:57,276 --> 00:03:00,316 Speaker 2: That's how I knew what adults did. Like all these 42 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 2: different aspects of who one could be. One could be 43 00:03:04,676 --> 00:03:06,916 Speaker 2: someone who worked for the city, or you know, when 44 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:08,876 Speaker 2: the Cosby Show came along, you could be a doctor 45 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:10,756 Speaker 2: in a lawyer, even if you were black. You know, 46 00:03:10,876 --> 00:03:14,476 Speaker 2: like all these things opened up, all these possibilities for me. 47 00:03:15,196 --> 00:03:18,876 Speaker 2: But I also loved the shows themselves. I loved the actors, 48 00:03:19,036 --> 00:03:22,196 Speaker 2: I loved the idea of the costumes and what went 49 00:03:22,236 --> 00:03:25,676 Speaker 2: behind them. I was able to really enjoy both sides 50 00:03:25,716 --> 00:03:28,676 Speaker 2: of it, the fantasy aspect and the reality of what 51 00:03:28,716 --> 00:03:29,916 Speaker 2: it took to make the shows. 52 00:03:31,476 --> 00:03:34,836 Speaker 1: And I mean, I know you had a really challenging childhood. 53 00:03:34,876 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 1: You had a verbally abusive stepfather, and you mentioned getting 54 00:03:38,476 --> 00:03:42,036 Speaker 1: swept up in the fantasy of TV. Was TV and 55 00:03:42,076 --> 00:03:44,596 Speaker 1: these visions of adult life a form of escapism for you? 56 00:03:45,076 --> 00:03:49,676 Speaker 2: One hundred percent? I absolutely went there to escape from 57 00:03:49,716 --> 00:03:52,196 Speaker 2: the reality of what was going on in my home, 58 00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:55,796 Speaker 2: which was emotional abuse. Like you said, so. 59 00:03:55,756 --> 00:03:59,876 Speaker 1: You're living this really glamorous Hollywood life and your husband 60 00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 1: are living it up. And so tell me a little 61 00:04:01,596 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 1: bit more about what motivated you to become a mom. 62 00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:08,996 Speaker 2: I don't ever remember being that child or that teenager, 63 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:12,356 Speaker 2: that young adult who was like I want to have babies, 64 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 2: like I can't wait to have babies. That was really 65 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:18,316 Speaker 2: never me. I never really took much interest in other 66 00:04:18,316 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 2: people's children. I was not the babysitting kid, but I assumed, 67 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 2: you know, again, going back to television, this is what happens, right. 68 00:04:27,436 --> 00:04:29,716 Speaker 2: You fall in love, you get married, you have kids. 69 00:04:30,036 --> 00:04:32,596 Speaker 2: So that was going to be next for me. I 70 00:04:32,636 --> 00:04:35,236 Speaker 2: wasn't at verse to it. I just didn't want it. 71 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:38,156 Speaker 2: I didn't want it the way I wanted the other things, 72 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:43,596 Speaker 2: like the glamour, my career, the stability, the romance and it. 73 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:46,956 Speaker 2: You know, I have a peer group and they were 74 00:04:46,996 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 2: all getting married and excited about having kids, you know. 75 00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:54,036 Speaker 2: And part of my deal growing up in my house 76 00:04:54,196 --> 00:05:00,276 Speaker 2: was that, because it was a violent home, not standing out, 77 00:05:00,636 --> 00:05:04,596 Speaker 2: keeping myself small allowed me to survive in my home, 78 00:05:05,436 --> 00:05:07,876 Speaker 2: and I carried that with me into adulthood. I didn't 79 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:10,276 Speaker 2: want to stand out from my peers in that way. 80 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:12,876 Speaker 2: I wanted to want the same things they wanted, or 81 00:05:12,876 --> 00:05:14,876 Speaker 2: at least I wanted it to look like I did. 82 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: So you mentioned the context around your stepfather and never 83 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:23,436 Speaker 1: wanting to stand out right because that might come with 84 00:05:23,556 --> 00:05:26,836 Speaker 1: punishment towards I mean verbal punishment for you, and then 85 00:05:26,956 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 1: from what I've read, physical violence towards your mother. Were 86 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:33,676 Speaker 1: there any other factors based on how you grew up 87 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:35,636 Speaker 1: that led you to not want to stand out? 88 00:05:36,516 --> 00:05:39,276 Speaker 2: I think really it all kind of stems from the 89 00:05:39,316 --> 00:05:41,956 Speaker 2: way that it was in my home, and the way 90 00:05:41,996 --> 00:05:43,836 Speaker 2: that I was in my home is just like you know, 91 00:05:43,876 --> 00:05:46,516 Speaker 2: who I was authentically just rubbed him the wrong way, 92 00:05:47,356 --> 00:05:51,396 Speaker 2: so I could be another version of myself, an edited version, 93 00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:54,996 Speaker 2: and be okay. I certainly took that out into the 94 00:05:55,036 --> 00:05:59,916 Speaker 2: world with me, right, So I learned to edit anything 95 00:06:00,196 --> 00:06:03,476 Speaker 2: that either didn't blend in or made me stand out, 96 00:06:03,596 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 2: or that seemed to not be met with enthusiasm, you know. 97 00:06:09,356 --> 00:06:11,396 Speaker 2: And I was the only black kid in my entire 98 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 2: school for a long time. My day to day was 99 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:18,116 Speaker 2: I was surrounded by all white kids, and that's another 100 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:20,236 Speaker 2: reason for me not to want to stand out. And 101 00:06:21,676 --> 00:06:24,636 Speaker 2: I have an undiagnosed language based learning disorder. Is what 102 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:29,116 Speaker 2: I believe. Can't do math, can't figure out numbers, never could. 103 00:06:30,116 --> 00:06:32,396 Speaker 2: By the time I got to Hay School, I was 104 00:06:32,476 --> 00:06:36,156 Speaker 2: hiding my inability, you know, my confusion around math and 105 00:06:36,156 --> 00:06:39,556 Speaker 2: the inability to even just do a simple problem. So 106 00:06:39,636 --> 00:06:42,236 Speaker 2: I dropped out in the tenth grade because I started 107 00:06:42,316 --> 00:06:47,716 Speaker 2: failing all my classes and didn't really tell people about that. 108 00:06:47,796 --> 00:06:50,436 Speaker 2: I kept showing up to campus like I was still 109 00:06:50,436 --> 00:06:53,836 Speaker 2: going to class for a while and I wasn't. And 110 00:06:53,916 --> 00:06:56,916 Speaker 2: so all these things, right, this the way that I 111 00:06:57,036 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 2: was being the only black person in my school, being 112 00:06:59,956 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 2: the only one who dropped out, being the only one 113 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:05,916 Speaker 2: who never went to college. All these things were things 114 00:07:05,956 --> 00:07:11,116 Speaker 2: that I felt like I needed to contain somewhere far 115 00:07:11,156 --> 00:07:13,036 Speaker 2: away so that no one would ever discover it. 116 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:15,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes so much sense. You're hiding, and you're 117 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:18,556 Speaker 1: also you're playing the part, yes, of what you feel 118 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:22,316 Speaker 1: other people expect of you or are performing themselves. And 119 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:24,836 Speaker 1: so as we discussed the next correct step for you 120 00:07:25,156 --> 00:07:27,796 Speaker 1: was to have kids, and you ended up having two 121 00:07:27,876 --> 00:07:32,956 Speaker 1: boys within a two year timeframe. Laura, what was the 122 00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:36,236 Speaker 1: experience like for you after your second was born and 123 00:07:37,316 --> 00:07:39,236 Speaker 1: what role did your expectations play in all of this 124 00:07:39,316 --> 00:07:40,596 Speaker 1: around what you thought it was going to be? 125 00:07:40,716 --> 00:07:45,116 Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, so you know, I I told you all 126 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:47,676 Speaker 2: the things that I wasn't just now that I wasn't 127 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:50,836 Speaker 2: a college graduate. I wasn't a high school graduate. But 128 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:54,516 Speaker 2: because I had hustled my whole life, and because I 129 00:07:54,716 --> 00:07:57,276 Speaker 2: figured things out, and because I had done really well 130 00:07:57,316 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 2: in my career, I was just going to slay motherhood, 131 00:08:01,196 --> 00:08:03,916 Speaker 2: like for sure, that's a given. This is the next 132 00:08:04,036 --> 00:08:07,596 Speaker 2: challenge to bring it on. Like I didn't have any 133 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:11,276 Speaker 2: experience with it, but I had been and I had 134 00:08:11,316 --> 00:08:16,436 Speaker 2: seen other people doing it. So I was told it 135 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:19,396 Speaker 2: was going to be hard by my peers. I was 136 00:08:19,476 --> 00:08:21,396 Speaker 2: told it was going to be hard by my mom. 137 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:24,716 Speaker 2: I did not believe any of them. I just felt 138 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:26,996 Speaker 2: like I have the whole package to be able to 139 00:08:27,156 --> 00:08:34,916 Speaker 2: really do great. And I was really surprised by how 140 00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:37,476 Speaker 2: not great. Now I shouldn't say that I wasn't great, 141 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:42,756 Speaker 2: but how ill equipped I felt, And especially after my 142 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:47,916 Speaker 2: second son was born, I remember that whole time period. 143 00:08:48,196 --> 00:08:51,596 Speaker 2: Is like I remember the first time I went under 144 00:08:51,636 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 2: the water in the ocean and the waves were kind 145 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:56,876 Speaker 2: of moving me around and I could see like the 146 00:08:56,876 --> 00:09:00,876 Speaker 2: bubbles going up, and I really was just like I'm lost, 147 00:09:01,196 --> 00:09:04,156 Speaker 2: Like I was scared, right. I remember that feeling of 148 00:09:04,236 --> 00:09:07,596 Speaker 2: kind of being clobbered by it and taken under, And 149 00:09:07,636 --> 00:09:10,756 Speaker 2: that's what it felt like to me. I was doing 150 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:16,036 Speaker 2: everything that I was supposed to be doing. I looked 151 00:09:16,196 --> 00:09:18,676 Speaker 2: like I was okay, but I felt like I was 152 00:09:18,796 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 2: underneath the waves getting cloppered. Being a new mom among 153 00:09:23,596 --> 00:09:28,356 Speaker 2: other new moms, was or just other mothers? Was I 154 00:09:28,356 --> 00:09:33,396 Speaker 2: mean that I'm going to use the word humiliating, And 155 00:09:33,476 --> 00:09:35,676 Speaker 2: I don't know that it's quite accurate, but that's the 156 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:40,556 Speaker 2: way it felt at times, and I needed desperately to 157 00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:44,276 Speaker 2: hide my ineptness around them. I didn't know how to 158 00:09:44,356 --> 00:09:48,316 Speaker 2: do what they did. I was always comparing what I 159 00:09:48,436 --> 00:09:51,036 Speaker 2: was doing with them, and I felt like I was 160 00:09:51,076 --> 00:09:54,276 Speaker 2: always coming up short. But I wouldn't let anybody see that. 161 00:09:55,236 --> 00:09:59,236 Speaker 2: It just wasn't anything that I had imagined it would be. 162 00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:04,036 Speaker 2: It really wasn't. And as I had prepared for a 163 00:10:04,036 --> 00:10:06,316 Speaker 2: lot of things in my life, I wasn't prepared for this. 164 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:11,836 Speaker 2: I have kids that it just really didn't sleep well 165 00:10:12,476 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 2: unless I was near them, which you know, maybe my fault, 166 00:10:16,836 --> 00:10:19,436 Speaker 2: maybe not my fault, maybe just how way they were designed. 167 00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:23,236 Speaker 2: But they would only really knock out when they were 168 00:10:23,236 --> 00:10:26,836 Speaker 2: in my presence. So putting them to bed meant, you know, 169 00:10:27,516 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 2: two hours later, one of them starts crying, wakes the 170 00:10:30,596 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 2: other one up. Toddler comes running in. He's wet is bed, 171 00:10:34,676 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 2: So now I have to change that. I put him 172 00:10:36,516 --> 00:10:39,076 Speaker 2: in mind while I'm changing his so maybe he can 173 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:43,636 Speaker 2: stay sedated, you know, like and and he hops up 174 00:10:43,676 --> 00:10:46,556 Speaker 2: and down. The other ones up and so it was 175 00:10:46,596 --> 00:10:48,956 Speaker 2: like that. It was like, you know, all night long, 176 00:10:48,996 --> 00:10:52,476 Speaker 2: I was changing sheets, I was changing beds. Eventually, at 177 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:54,716 Speaker 2: the end of the night, I was bringing them both 178 00:10:54,836 --> 00:10:57,636 Speaker 2: into bed with me. That's the way it went. I 179 00:10:57,676 --> 00:11:00,516 Speaker 2: didn't know what else to do yet, know how I 180 00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:02,476 Speaker 2: was going to get the three hours of sleep I 181 00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:04,516 Speaker 2: was going to need in order to start the day 182 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:07,916 Speaker 2: over the next day. Because my husband was usually working, 183 00:11:08,196 --> 00:11:10,716 Speaker 2: he was out of the house, you know, and he 184 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:15,116 Speaker 2: was back late, and so I was on again come 185 00:11:15,196 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 2: seven am. It wasn't like I had the day off 186 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 2: after being up all night. 187 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:24,196 Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, you know, it's so interesting when we think 188 00:11:24,196 --> 00:11:28,876 Speaker 1: about ideals of motherhood and models of motherhood, because I 189 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:31,556 Speaker 1: still heard in the language you use culpability. You said, 190 00:11:31,596 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 1: I have two kids that just didn't really sleep, and 191 00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:36,596 Speaker 1: like maybe it was my fault, maybe it wasn't. And 192 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:39,716 Speaker 1: I think that's part of the challenge. And I see 193 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:42,756 Speaker 1: women especially, I think maybe parents do this across the board, 194 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:48,356 Speaker 1: but they feel this sense of moral responsibility and blame 195 00:11:48,676 --> 00:11:52,356 Speaker 1: no matter what the outcomes, and it just strikes me 196 00:11:52,396 --> 00:11:54,756 Speaker 1: that it can really set everyone up for failure. It's 197 00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: an unreasonable goal. 198 00:11:57,276 --> 00:12:02,836 Speaker 2: I heard myself say that too, and I I think 199 00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:08,556 Speaker 2: that that fault finding, especially with parenting. It feels like 200 00:12:08,676 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 2: everyone feels like that's their job. Yeah, totally into what's 201 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:14,436 Speaker 2: going on with you and your kids, and then they 202 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:18,276 Speaker 2: want to be able to diagnose it, say whose fault 203 00:12:18,276 --> 00:12:21,156 Speaker 2: it is, and then give you the solution, right, Yeah, 204 00:12:21,436 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 2: and usually unsolicited. So this is another reason, and thank 205 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:29,116 Speaker 2: you for bringing that up. Why I didn't let people 206 00:12:29,156 --> 00:12:34,356 Speaker 2: see that I was struggling. I didn't want that invasion 207 00:12:34,436 --> 00:12:37,596 Speaker 2: into what I was doing. I didn't want the unsolicited advice. 208 00:12:37,676 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 2: I didn't want to try what worked for them. 209 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:44,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you when you had images in your mind 210 00:12:44,716 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 1: of the perfect ideal mom, the perfect Laura in her 211 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:52,396 Speaker 1: role as mother, what did that look like to you? 212 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:57,316 Speaker 2: So it definitely looked like getting myself together before I 213 00:12:57,396 --> 00:13:00,436 Speaker 2: left the house, looking like a together person when I 214 00:13:00,596 --> 00:13:04,916 Speaker 2: dropped off my kids, being interested in, being involved in 215 00:13:04,996 --> 00:13:08,716 Speaker 2: whatever they were doing, being the type of parent that 216 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:12,276 Speaker 2: other parents could count on, being the person who had 217 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:15,956 Speaker 2: the house that everybody's kids wanted to go to, being 218 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:19,756 Speaker 2: the field trip parent, you know, being like those were 219 00:13:19,756 --> 00:13:23,356 Speaker 2: the parents I saw and emulated. I wanted to be 220 00:13:23,596 --> 00:13:27,356 Speaker 2: like them. The missing ingredient, I think from you, because 221 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:32,356 Speaker 2: I did all that stuff was cheerfully. I wanted to 222 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:35,036 Speaker 2: cheerfully be the mom who showed up. I wanted it 223 00:13:35,076 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 2: to be genuine. I didn't want to just go through 224 00:13:38,676 --> 00:13:41,116 Speaker 2: the motions doing that stuff, which is what I was doing. 225 00:13:42,276 --> 00:13:45,276 Speaker 2: I really wanted to do it cheerfully, and I didn't. 226 00:13:45,476 --> 00:13:48,636 Speaker 2: That was the ingredient. I couldn't figure out how to 227 00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 2: source it, Like where does that come from? When you're 228 00:13:51,356 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 2: exhausted from the night before and you're exhausted all day long? 229 00:13:54,996 --> 00:13:55,996 Speaker 2: I didn't understand. 230 00:13:57,116 --> 00:13:59,716 Speaker 1: It strikes me that it's a really tall order for 231 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:03,116 Speaker 1: Laura to be telling herself, you not only need to 232 00:14:03,156 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 1: do all these things that embody perfect motherhood, you need 233 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:09,836 Speaker 1: to want to want to do all those things right. 234 00:14:10,516 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 1: And I'm just so curious to know. I mean, where 235 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:15,316 Speaker 1: did those high expectations come from? Like? Why were you 236 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:17,636 Speaker 1: expecting this of yourself? 237 00:14:19,356 --> 00:14:23,876 Speaker 2: The best I can figure is that because my ex 238 00:14:23,996 --> 00:14:27,796 Speaker 2: husband and I were were this interracial power couple in Hollywood, 239 00:14:27,956 --> 00:14:32,516 Speaker 2: we enjoyed this status, you know, and I did enjoy it. 240 00:14:32,596 --> 00:14:36,676 Speaker 2: I very much enjoyed it and the status of you know, obviously, 241 00:14:36,676 --> 00:14:39,596 Speaker 2: no one's perfect, but it felt like people always said 242 00:14:39,596 --> 00:14:41,916 Speaker 2: that to us, you guys are the perfect couple. You 243 00:14:41,916 --> 00:14:44,276 Speaker 2: guys had the perfect marriage, you had the perfect wedding, 244 00:14:45,076 --> 00:14:48,356 Speaker 2: and it was like perfect, perfect, perfect, And it just 245 00:14:48,556 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 2: followed to me. It tracked that I should then be 246 00:14:51,996 --> 00:14:56,596 Speaker 2: the perfect mom, right, the mom who hears all these 247 00:14:56,636 --> 00:15:00,196 Speaker 2: same compliments. You're the perfect mom. I wish I could 248 00:15:00,196 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 2: be more like you. You're always here, You're always there, You're 249 00:15:03,756 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 2: always doing this. And I did see women doing the 250 00:15:07,276 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 2: things that I was doing before I started doing them. 251 00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:13,716 Speaker 2: I was watching and observing kind of like, this is 252 00:15:13,796 --> 00:15:18,196 Speaker 2: the path for the dope moms, right, All the cool 253 00:15:18,276 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 2: moms are on this path. The ones that are off 254 00:15:20,956 --> 00:15:25,236 Speaker 2: that path aren't as well regarded. The ones who openly 255 00:15:25,316 --> 00:15:31,476 Speaker 2: talked about having postpartum anything were secretly judged by small groups. 256 00:15:31,876 --> 00:15:34,956 Speaker 2: I'm sure I was included in those groups. Yeah, So 257 00:15:35,396 --> 00:15:37,876 Speaker 2: like things like that, I didn't want to be that knew, 258 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 2: I knew what it was like. I wanted to be 259 00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:44,676 Speaker 2: on that path toward being like the epitome the cool mom. 260 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 1: So you mentioned, you know, by the end of the night, 261 00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:49,876 Speaker 1: every night your boys end up in the bed with you, 262 00:15:49,956 --> 00:15:52,596 Speaker 1: and you were full time caregiver at this point because 263 00:15:52,636 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 1: your husband's either working or traveling. You ended up developing 264 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: pretty debilitating insomnia. 265 00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 2: I had this anxiety that's not the typical anxiety I 266 00:16:04,236 --> 00:16:08,076 Speaker 2: hear new parents talking about. I wasn't like worried they 267 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:10,516 Speaker 2: weren't breathing or were something was going to happen to 268 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 2: them all the time. That wasn't my worry. My worry 269 00:16:13,516 --> 00:16:14,996 Speaker 2: was that they were going to meet me and I 270 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 2: wasn't going to hear them. That killed me. The idea 271 00:16:20,956 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 2: that they would wake up and say mommy or cry 272 00:16:23,836 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 2: and I might not hear them, or they might cry 273 00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:30,276 Speaker 2: for too long. So I didn't know what was going 274 00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 2: on with me, but I I was on edge. I 275 00:16:33,436 --> 00:16:37,276 Speaker 2: was irritable, I was anxious. I was just short tempered 276 00:16:37,316 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 2: with everybody, and I just wanted everybody to go away 277 00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:44,156 Speaker 2: except for my kids. And I wanted to cry maya 278 00:16:44,236 --> 00:16:46,156 Speaker 2: in the middle of those nights, like you know, the 279 00:16:46,196 --> 00:16:48,796 Speaker 2: second change of sheets. Most of the time, I would 280 00:16:48,796 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 2: sit there just almost like you know, like dry heaving 281 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:54,356 Speaker 2: to throw up. I would be like dry crying, like 282 00:16:54,756 --> 00:16:57,716 Speaker 2: just like it wouldn't come out. I was so depleted, 283 00:16:57,756 --> 00:17:01,076 Speaker 2: I wouldn't even have tears. And so I saw a doctor, 284 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:04,676 Speaker 2: and you know, I told him what was going on, 285 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:06,756 Speaker 2: and He's like, so, how long has it been since 286 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:09,636 Speaker 2: you haven't slept? And I told him and he's like, okay, 287 00:17:09,716 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 2: we got to get you sleeping first. I can't even 288 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:15,956 Speaker 2: diagnose you until we've gotten you sleeping for a little bit. 289 00:17:16,596 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 2: And he gave me a pill that I had never 290 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:21,156 Speaker 2: heard of at the time. You know, this was in 291 00:17:21,196 --> 00:17:28,916 Speaker 2: the early two thousands, called Ambion, and I took it 292 00:17:29,316 --> 00:17:34,756 Speaker 2: that night. You know, I'm sitting there waiting for this 293 00:17:34,876 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 2: pill to take effect, hoping for sleep, and then this 294 00:17:39,076 --> 00:17:44,116 Speaker 2: heat starts rising behind my eyes. And at first it's 295 00:17:44,156 --> 00:17:47,356 Speaker 2: a little scary because I hadn't experienced anything like that. 296 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:53,476 Speaker 2: It feels like warm oil is just entering my body 297 00:17:53,636 --> 00:17:58,516 Speaker 2: and flowing through me. It was the most incredible feeling 298 00:17:58,676 --> 00:18:02,276 Speaker 2: that I've ever had. But the thing that followed was 299 00:18:02,316 --> 00:18:06,476 Speaker 2: even better. Everything clicked off. The alarm bell that had 300 00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 2: been ringing in my head for two plus this year 301 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:13,716 Speaker 2: is stopped ringing. The first time it was silenced, And 302 00:18:15,116 --> 00:18:17,716 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't tell you what that meant like, 303 00:18:17,916 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 2: to not know that there's an alarm bell ringing in 304 00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:22,236 Speaker 2: your head for two years, to not know that your 305 00:18:22,276 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 2: nerve endings are frayed and on edge and then it 306 00:18:25,956 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 2: was just, ah, this is what's been missing. I felt 307 00:18:31,996 --> 00:18:34,716 Speaker 2: freed in that moment in a way that I hadn't 308 00:18:34,756 --> 00:18:39,396 Speaker 2: been before, and I realized, oh my goodness, with this, 309 00:18:40,316 --> 00:18:43,476 Speaker 2: I can be that mom that my kids deserve, you know, 310 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:45,676 Speaker 2: not the one who's just going through the motions every 311 00:18:45,756 --> 00:18:49,036 Speaker 2: day doing what she needs to do. I can be 312 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:52,036 Speaker 2: the mom who wants to do this stuff. And I 313 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:54,756 Speaker 2: wanted to just grab up my kids and say, I 314 00:18:54,796 --> 00:18:58,116 Speaker 2: am so sorry I've been this crazy mom. Things are 315 00:18:58,156 --> 00:19:01,556 Speaker 2: going to be different, We're all going to be okay. 316 00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:07,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, So how did your relationship then with Ambion evolve 317 00:19:07,476 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 1: over time? 318 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:12,716 Speaker 2: So after that first night, that blissful sleep, I woke 319 00:19:12,796 --> 00:19:16,076 Speaker 2: up and the first thing that popped into my head 320 00:19:16,116 --> 00:19:20,916 Speaker 2: two words again please. Like I said, I had this 321 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:23,076 Speaker 2: kind of new lease on life and I wanted to 322 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:27,116 Speaker 2: go and experience that with my kids because I felt rested. 323 00:19:27,796 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 2: And you know, for anybody insomnia or not, when you 324 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:34,636 Speaker 2: have a good night's sleep, yeah, feeling of being rested 325 00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:37,436 Speaker 2: and ready to tackle the day is like if we 326 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:40,716 Speaker 2: could bottle that, put in a little pill. No, but 327 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 2: it's just the best feeling. So I had that feeling. 328 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:48,316 Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I needed to take another one 329 00:19:48,396 --> 00:19:52,796 Speaker 2: right away, but I wanted to, but I didn't feel 330 00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:56,076 Speaker 2: like I needed to. And at that point where I 331 00:19:56,276 --> 00:20:00,196 Speaker 2: was and in my addiction, I think that my ability 332 00:20:00,236 --> 00:20:04,436 Speaker 2: to distinguish what you need and want was clear. Like 333 00:20:04,516 --> 00:20:08,156 Speaker 2: I didn't run through a bottle really quickly, not until 334 00:20:08,156 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 2: the second year, when I I was taking them every night. 335 00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:15,396 Speaker 2: As things progressed, it was like, not just one to 336 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:17,676 Speaker 2: get to sleep, but one and a half and then 337 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:19,956 Speaker 2: one half in the middle of the night when I 338 00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 2: woke up, because the wake up was now inevitable. The 339 00:20:22,596 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 2: ambient just didn't do what it did to me earlier 340 00:20:24,916 --> 00:20:27,996 Speaker 2: when I first started taking it. So this progresses over 341 00:20:28,036 --> 00:20:31,876 Speaker 2: the years, and then approximately six years later, I am 342 00:20:32,436 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 2: taking them every night. I'm taking them in the middle 343 00:20:35,476 --> 00:20:39,156 Speaker 2: of the night when I wake up, and all I 344 00:20:39,196 --> 00:20:44,236 Speaker 2: think about, besides my kids, are these pills. How many 345 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:45,796 Speaker 2: can I take? When can I take them? Where can 346 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:49,636 Speaker 2: I get them? How can I not be discovered? How 347 00:20:49,676 --> 00:20:52,756 Speaker 2: can I keep it a secret? This is my every 348 00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:57,556 Speaker 2: waking thought besides my children. And it's an obsession. It 349 00:20:57,596 --> 00:21:01,196 Speaker 2: was an obsession. I believe I was fully addicted at 350 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:04,516 Speaker 2: that point. It's around this time that I start washing 351 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 2: these pills down with vodka. I wasn't able to recapture 352 00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:10,916 Speaker 2: that feeling of euphoria the way I had in the 353 00:21:10,996 --> 00:21:16,556 Speaker 2: early days, and the booze really helped. You know, Benadryl 354 00:21:16,636 --> 00:21:19,956 Speaker 2: came into play at some point because benadryl actually boosted 355 00:21:19,956 --> 00:21:24,996 Speaker 2: the effect of it. I was a full blown at it. 356 00:21:25,796 --> 00:21:28,116 Speaker 2: A junkie is what I thought of myself as in 357 00:21:28,196 --> 00:21:35,356 Speaker 2: my mind, and I was a full time mom. 358 00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 1: How many ambient pills were you now taking? 359 00:21:39,716 --> 00:21:43,036 Speaker 2: I was taking up to ten pills a day, which 360 00:21:43,756 --> 00:21:46,156 Speaker 2: most most people don't get up off the floor after 361 00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:48,916 Speaker 2: I say that, they're like what, they just faint because 362 00:21:48,916 --> 00:21:52,556 Speaker 2: it's way too many pills. It's it's a lethal dosage, right, Yeah. 363 00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:55,876 Speaker 2: I was not taking ten pills at one time. I 364 00:21:55,916 --> 00:21:59,276 Speaker 2: was being very strategic and I would write down, you know, 365 00:21:59,316 --> 00:22:01,796 Speaker 2: how many pills I had to pick up, how many 366 00:22:01,796 --> 00:22:04,356 Speaker 2: refills I had. For someone who wasn't good at math, 367 00:22:04,396 --> 00:22:07,436 Speaker 2: I became very good at math, and I calculated out 368 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:10,796 Speaker 2: what I could take. The thing was during the day. 369 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 2: Even though I couldn't knock myself out with ambien because 370 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:16,556 Speaker 2: I would go to sleep, I couldn't be entirely without 371 00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,196 Speaker 2: it either. I needed to have some of it in 372 00:22:19,236 --> 00:22:23,756 Speaker 2: my system so that I would avoid a debilitating withdrawal. 373 00:22:24,156 --> 00:22:25,916 Speaker 2: And if I can just tell you a little bit 374 00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 2: of what that would look like, it's like the worst 375 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:35,236 Speaker 2: stomach flew, body aches, headache, sweating, lack of appetite, not 376 00:22:35,356 --> 00:22:39,876 Speaker 2: being able to make eye contact with anyone, visibly, trembling, 377 00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:46,516 Speaker 2: shaky fingers, rapid heartbeat like dying is what it looked like. 378 00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:50,476 Speaker 2: It looked like I should have been admitted to an er, 379 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:54,556 Speaker 2: but I wasn't. I would kind of chip away at 380 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 2: a corner of an ambient here, a corner of an 381 00:22:56,476 --> 00:22:59,476 Speaker 2: ambien there. It wouldn't take away the withdrawal, but it 382 00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:03,156 Speaker 2: would make it a manageable amount of withdrawal. And I 383 00:23:03,156 --> 00:23:06,596 Speaker 2: could time it. If I take this chip, which is 384 00:23:06,636 --> 00:23:11,396 Speaker 2: like a corner of an ambien before lunch, then I 385 00:23:11,436 --> 00:23:14,516 Speaker 2: can do an hour and ten minutes for lunch without 386 00:23:14,556 --> 00:23:17,516 Speaker 2: it becoming unbearable. But then I got to get myself 387 00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:19,476 Speaker 2: out of there and get myself back home. 388 00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:21,916 Speaker 1: So you can take another little Yeah, if. 389 00:23:21,796 --> 00:23:23,956 Speaker 2: I had enough, I would take another one. Otherwise I 390 00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:28,036 Speaker 2: would just basically just endure the withdrawal at home. Oh, gosh, okay, 391 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:30,236 Speaker 2: because I needed to have enough to go to sleep 392 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:31,796 Speaker 2: at night. That was my biggest fear. 393 00:23:32,836 --> 00:23:36,156 Speaker 1: Did you confide in anyone during this period of time, Laura, 394 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 1: or like, did anyone just know what was happening? 395 00:23:39,516 --> 00:23:42,476 Speaker 2: Well, not only was my husband traveling a lot at 396 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:47,196 Speaker 2: this point, but we were getting a divorce, and you know, 397 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:52,196 Speaker 2: so for him, I'm sure there was a huge sense 398 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:57,436 Speaker 2: that something was wrong. But it's hard to know, especially 399 00:23:57,556 --> 00:24:01,396 Speaker 2: if you have an idea the person that you're engaged 400 00:24:01,436 --> 00:24:04,196 Speaker 2: with as an addict, Right, you haven't seen this behavior 401 00:24:04,236 --> 00:24:06,916 Speaker 2: from them. No one was checking for me to be 402 00:24:06,916 --> 00:24:11,396 Speaker 2: an addict at this point, right. So the withdrawal, not 403 00:24:11,716 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 2: the physical withdrawal, but the withdrawal from society, the isolation, 404 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:19,436 Speaker 2: the sadness, these are all things that can be attributed 405 00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:24,756 Speaker 2: to getting a divorce. So it was in a way 406 00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:26,916 Speaker 2: it was lucky for me, or at least that's the 407 00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:29,956 Speaker 2: way it felt, because it masked what was really going 408 00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:32,276 Speaker 2: on from the outside world. It shielded me. 409 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 410 00:24:38,996 --> 00:24:52,676 Speaker 1: of plans. At the peak of Laura's ambient addiction, she 411 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:57,556 Speaker 1: was taking ten times the recommended dose to avoid withdrawal symptoms. 412 00:24:57,596 --> 00:25:00,676 Speaker 1: She even needed ambient during the day, she'd cut up 413 00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:04,756 Speaker 1: the pills into tiny pieces and ration them out. Still, 414 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:07,716 Speaker 1: she remained determined to play the part of the active, 415 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:11,796 Speaker 1: engaged and happy mom and to hide her situation from 416 00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:12,556 Speaker 1: her community. 417 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:15,836 Speaker 2: So when I showed up to my kids' school, I 418 00:25:15,956 --> 00:25:18,996 Speaker 2: brought Starbucks in the morning to all the guards. I 419 00:25:19,116 --> 00:25:22,556 Speaker 2: came back at ten fifteen to do snack for my 420 00:25:22,676 --> 00:25:27,556 Speaker 2: younger son. I would do hot lunch with everybody, and 421 00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:30,516 Speaker 2: then I would volunteer in the library or like I 422 00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:34,196 Speaker 2: was on campus with them almost as much as they were. Wow, 423 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:36,316 Speaker 2: I was in these little pockets, right, I'm a half 424 00:25:36,356 --> 00:25:39,676 Speaker 2: hour here, I'm thirty minutes here. Everybody had this impression 425 00:25:39,716 --> 00:25:42,996 Speaker 2: of me that one I was happy, and two I 426 00:25:43,156 --> 00:25:47,156 Speaker 2: was doing the thing. I was also someone that everyone liked, 427 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:49,876 Speaker 2: but no one really knew at school. I was someone 428 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:53,196 Speaker 2: who would be invited to all the different stuff, but 429 00:25:53,396 --> 00:25:56,556 Speaker 2: I hadn't really had like a deep conversation with anybody. 430 00:25:56,876 --> 00:26:01,156 Speaker 2: No one really knew me. That was that was you know, intentional. 431 00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:04,836 Speaker 2: And so while I was able to show up on 432 00:26:04,876 --> 00:26:10,076 Speaker 2: campus and kind of skirt any deep conversation and get out. 433 00:26:10,756 --> 00:26:14,196 Speaker 2: Now it was getting harder. And I remember this one 434 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 2: time I was there to volunteer in one of the classrooms, 435 00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:22,116 Speaker 2: I can't remember which one, and I was needing a 436 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 2: corner of an ambien. And I went into this bathroom 437 00:26:26,876 --> 00:26:30,036 Speaker 2: and I was opening my pill bottle to get the 438 00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:32,596 Speaker 2: corner of an ambient out so that I could go 439 00:26:32,636 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 2: and do whatever it was I was scheduled to do. 440 00:26:36,076 --> 00:26:40,356 Speaker 2: And my hand slipped and the bottle spilled, and all 441 00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:42,916 Speaker 2: the pills went all over the floor, not just in 442 00:26:42,956 --> 00:26:46,876 Speaker 2: the stall where I was of this girl's bathroom, and 443 00:26:47,436 --> 00:26:49,956 Speaker 2: maya something else took over. Then I didn't care how 444 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,876 Speaker 2: I looked. I didn't care. All I cared about, oh 445 00:26:52,876 --> 00:26:55,676 Speaker 2: my goodness, was getting those pills. I didn't even care 446 00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 2: that they're probably on a urine stained floor. I just 447 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:04,716 Speaker 2: needed those pills back in that bottle. So instantly, I'm 448 00:27:04,716 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 2: on my hands and knees on this floor, picking up 449 00:27:08,636 --> 00:27:12,556 Speaker 2: each pill so carefully and putting it back into the bottle. 450 00:27:13,116 --> 00:27:15,716 Speaker 2: And I'm about halfway through this process when my kid's 451 00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 2: art teacher walks in, and the way I remember it 452 00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:25,876 Speaker 2: is she looked at me. I looked at her with 453 00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:29,676 Speaker 2: a terrified look on my face. Because I felt busted. Yeah, 454 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:34,156 Speaker 2: and then she quietly turns around, goes the other way, 455 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:37,556 Speaker 2: and walks out. I don't know she read the bottle. 456 00:27:37,596 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 2: I don't know if she recognized the pills or she 457 00:27:39,596 --> 00:27:43,076 Speaker 2: was just recognizing the state that I was in, you know. 458 00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:47,196 Speaker 2: And so that's that's how captive I was. 459 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, So now let's visit the summer of that year, 460 00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:54,636 Speaker 1: July fourth, two thousand and eight. Tell me what happened 461 00:27:54,636 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 1: that day. 462 00:27:56,036 --> 00:28:00,076 Speaker 2: So it's the afternoon of July fourth, creeping into the evening, 463 00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:05,676 Speaker 2: and I am in what I remember as one of 464 00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 2: the most debilitating withdrawals I ever had, where my teeth 465 00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:13,676 Speaker 2: were chattering. It was so bad my headache I thought 466 00:28:13,716 --> 00:28:16,596 Speaker 2: it might kill me. This headache that I had, it 467 00:28:16,636 --> 00:28:20,596 Speaker 2: was blinding, like literally I lost my peripheral vision. And 468 00:28:20,676 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 2: so I was like, I can't take my kids to 469 00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:26,356 Speaker 2: the fireworks tonight. I can't do anything. I have to 470 00:28:26,436 --> 00:28:28,836 Speaker 2: get them out of here so that I can knock 471 00:28:28,876 --> 00:28:31,276 Speaker 2: myself out, because that's the only thing that's going to 472 00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:32,876 Speaker 2: help this. It's not going to be a corner of 473 00:28:32,916 --> 00:28:35,876 Speaker 2: a pill. I'm going to have to take a full dose. 474 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:39,156 Speaker 2: And now you know, this is what I've been trying 475 00:28:39,156 --> 00:28:40,996 Speaker 2: to do is wait until after my kids go to 476 00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:44,596 Speaker 2: sleep to knock myself out. But at this point I 477 00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:47,316 Speaker 2: could not wait, and I knew it, but I didn't 478 00:28:47,316 --> 00:28:50,156 Speaker 2: want them to witness that. So I sent them to 479 00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:53,596 Speaker 2: watch the fireworks with a neighbor and I went to 480 00:28:53,676 --> 00:29:00,156 Speaker 2: my stash and I thought that I had, you know, 481 00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:02,396 Speaker 2: a two day supply of pills in there, which for 482 00:29:02,516 --> 00:29:07,436 Speaker 2: me would have been around twenty pills, but there were three, 483 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:10,596 Speaker 2: and three wouldn't get me through the night. And it 484 00:29:10,676 --> 00:29:14,116 Speaker 2: was like being slapped across the face when I opened 485 00:29:14,116 --> 00:29:17,596 Speaker 2: that bottle and found those three pills, and the world 486 00:29:17,596 --> 00:29:19,556 Speaker 2: crumbled around me, and I just didn't what am I 487 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:20,876 Speaker 2: going to do? What am I going to do? I 488 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:24,036 Speaker 2: don't have anymore, I have a finite window of time. 489 00:29:24,556 --> 00:29:26,556 Speaker 2: My kids have gone to see the fireworks, they're going 490 00:29:26,596 --> 00:29:30,676 Speaker 2: to be back. What am I going to do? And 491 00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:34,076 Speaker 2: so I took them, went to the freezer, got the vodka, 492 00:29:34,436 --> 00:29:37,436 Speaker 2: drank some of that, went to the bathroom, got benadryl, 493 00:29:37,836 --> 00:29:43,316 Speaker 2: took two of those, and nothing, not a thing. I 494 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 2: didn't feel any of that familiar heat rising behind my eyes. 495 00:29:46,436 --> 00:29:49,756 Speaker 2: I didn't feel any of the indicators that this was working, 496 00:29:50,676 --> 00:29:54,316 Speaker 2: and my withdrawal was as excruciating as it had been 497 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:57,396 Speaker 2: when I walked in the door. And you know, eventually, 498 00:29:57,556 --> 00:30:01,316 Speaker 2: like it, they worked for a very short period of time, 499 00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:04,676 Speaker 2: less than an hour, and then I was stone cold 500 00:30:04,716 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 2: sober again, and then withdrawal again and dry crying again. 501 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:13,796 Speaker 2: And you know, I had this moment where I was 502 00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 2: just like, I can't get loaded anymore. I took everything 503 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:23,676 Speaker 2: I had and I didn't get any relief, and I 504 00:30:23,716 --> 00:30:28,356 Speaker 2: can't be like this. I can't be this shaking, headachey 505 00:30:28,756 --> 00:30:32,476 Speaker 2: fluey mess all the time, right, And so I was like, 506 00:30:32,516 --> 00:30:35,396 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to get help, as I can't 507 00:30:35,396 --> 00:30:38,236 Speaker 2: do this. I can't do this on my own. The 508 00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 2: mom that I imagined myself to be that I needed everyone 509 00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:48,876 Speaker 2: to see me as failed. That image shattered because I 510 00:30:48,996 --> 00:30:53,036 Speaker 2: couldn't take my kids to the fireworks because of my addiction. 511 00:30:53,956 --> 00:30:57,516 Speaker 2: I couldn't take them to this very simple thing that 512 00:30:57,796 --> 00:31:00,716 Speaker 2: you know, millions of Americans around the country were doing. 513 00:31:01,236 --> 00:31:05,636 Speaker 2: I could not do that because of this addiction. In 514 00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:07,756 Speaker 2: my mind, it was the worst possible thing. 515 00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:11,356 Speaker 1: You realize you needed to ask for help, and I'm 516 00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 1: so curious what it was like for you to reveal 517 00:31:15,316 --> 00:31:19,276 Speaker 1: your secret. That was your biggest fear for so long 518 00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:22,076 Speaker 1: that this moment would happen. And so what was it 519 00:31:22,116 --> 00:31:24,196 Speaker 1: actually like when that secret was revealed. 520 00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:31,516 Speaker 2: The first person I told was my mother, who was lovely. 521 00:31:32,556 --> 00:31:37,116 Speaker 2: She didn't pry, she was warm, she was supportive, and 522 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:40,276 Speaker 2: I hung up the phone feeling like I just wanted 523 00:31:40,276 --> 00:31:43,276 Speaker 2: the earth to swallow me. I couldn't believe that I 524 00:31:43,316 --> 00:31:45,956 Speaker 2: had said it out loud. And you know, that's the 525 00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:50,116 Speaker 2: thing with addicts is we don't want to We want 526 00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:52,916 Speaker 2: to leave that back door open. Right, Oh, maybe it 527 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:56,116 Speaker 2: wasn't so bad. If I don't tell anybody, then maybe 528 00:31:56,156 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 2: it's not so bad. I can still believe that lie. Yeah, 529 00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:02,756 Speaker 2: but once I've confessed to somebody that back door shuts 530 00:32:02,836 --> 00:32:06,036 Speaker 2: and locks, I don't have anywhere else to go. And 531 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:09,716 Speaker 2: I knew that when I told her that she was 532 00:32:09,756 --> 00:32:11,916 Speaker 2: going to tell other people. But the secret was out. 533 00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:16,276 Speaker 2: I couldn't go back to pretending. And you know, in 534 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:19,436 Speaker 2: each person who I told, each one felt like that 535 00:32:19,956 --> 00:32:24,196 Speaker 2: I was desperately afraid of being id'd as the mom 536 00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:25,316 Speaker 2: who went to treatment. 537 00:32:25,716 --> 00:32:30,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've said that the impact of your time in 538 00:32:30,276 --> 00:32:33,996 Speaker 1: treatment didn't really hit you until towards the end when 539 00:32:34,036 --> 00:32:36,476 Speaker 1: you heard a comment from one of the nurses, Can 540 00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:37,276 Speaker 1: you say more about that? 541 00:32:38,636 --> 00:32:41,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I hated it there. I was there 542 00:32:41,476 --> 00:32:43,956 Speaker 2: for thirty days. I hated every minute I was there. 543 00:32:44,636 --> 00:32:48,996 Speaker 2: I never leaned in. I did not feel safe there 544 00:32:49,076 --> 00:32:52,276 Speaker 2: like a lot of people did, and I didn't feel 545 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 2: like I had changed. In fact, I was planning to 546 00:32:55,116 --> 00:32:59,196 Speaker 2: pick up a refill about, you know, nine miles from 547 00:32:59,236 --> 00:33:01,676 Speaker 2: where the treatment center was, on my way back to 548 00:33:01,716 --> 00:33:05,396 Speaker 2: Los Angeles. I use my phone time, which is a 549 00:33:05,436 --> 00:33:07,516 Speaker 2: privilege that you get at the end, to call in 550 00:33:07,556 --> 00:33:11,396 Speaker 2: that refill, take prescribed and go live my life. And 551 00:33:12,436 --> 00:33:14,796 Speaker 2: as I was checking out the nurse who had checked 552 00:33:14,796 --> 00:33:20,516 Speaker 2: me in thirty days before, she said, the lights have 553 00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:24,116 Speaker 2: come back on in your eyes and she started crying. 554 00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:28,716 Speaker 2: Oh wow, she started crying, and I felt I was 555 00:33:28,836 --> 00:33:31,836 Speaker 2: so just like solid stone. I didn't want any part 556 00:33:31,836 --> 00:33:34,556 Speaker 2: of this emotional exchange with her, but I felt my 557 00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:37,476 Speaker 2: body warming, and then I felt the tears in my 558 00:33:37,556 --> 00:33:42,556 Speaker 2: eyes despite myself, and I felt something that I hadn't 559 00:33:42,556 --> 00:33:45,876 Speaker 2: felt before. I didn't stop me from wanting to pick 560 00:33:45,956 --> 00:33:51,316 Speaker 2: up that refill, but something got in. Then, something penetrated 561 00:33:51,476 --> 00:33:56,876 Speaker 2: that armor, and I felt something which I can now 562 00:33:56,956 --> 00:34:00,716 Speaker 2: identify as hope, but I didn't know that's what it 563 00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:06,396 Speaker 2: was then. I was just like, it doesn't have. 564 00:34:06,316 --> 00:34:06,796 Speaker 1: To be this. 565 00:34:08,996 --> 00:34:10,516 Speaker 2: It's going to be this. I'm going to go pick 566 00:34:10,556 --> 00:34:12,316 Speaker 2: up that refill and go do this. But it doesn't 567 00:34:12,396 --> 00:34:14,676 Speaker 2: have to be this, because look what just happened. Thirty 568 00:34:14,756 --> 00:34:19,156 Speaker 2: days later, I'm off of it entirely, and the lights 569 00:34:19,156 --> 00:34:20,276 Speaker 2: are back on in my eyes. 570 00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:24,716 Speaker 1: See, you said you didn't realize that it was hope 571 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:28,196 Speaker 1: in the moment, but that yeah, and I love this refrain, 572 00:34:28,276 --> 00:34:30,276 Speaker 1: like it doesn't have to be that way. And there 573 00:34:30,356 --> 00:34:34,556 Speaker 1: is this experience about two months after you leave treatment 574 00:34:35,756 --> 00:34:37,476 Speaker 1: where now I mean, now that I hear you say that, 575 00:34:37,636 --> 00:34:40,156 Speaker 1: it seems like it's a it doesn't have to be 576 00:34:40,236 --> 00:34:43,116 Speaker 1: that way situation, right, Like, can you tell me about that? 577 00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:46,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, I should start by saying that I didn't actually 578 00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:49,196 Speaker 2: pick up that ambion on the way back from treatment. 579 00:34:49,356 --> 00:34:53,556 Speaker 2: And I had been sober at this point where you're 580 00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:57,996 Speaker 2: talking about for about two months. And so my kid 581 00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:02,996 Speaker 2: is sick and I called to get medication delivered for him, antibiotics, 582 00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:07,516 Speaker 2: And when the delivery comes, I opened the bag and 583 00:35:07,556 --> 00:35:09,716 Speaker 2: I can tell already that the bag is too heavy 584 00:35:10,036 --> 00:35:13,996 Speaker 2: for just a bottle of antibiotics. There's also a bottle 585 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:21,236 Speaker 2: of cough medicine, which is the most delicious orange elixir 586 00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:24,596 Speaker 2: for coughs ever invented. And this would be like a 587 00:35:24,636 --> 00:35:27,196 Speaker 2: little treat for myself when I was sick, Like, you know, 588 00:35:27,236 --> 00:35:28,636 Speaker 2: I would get it when I was sick, and I 589 00:35:28,676 --> 00:35:33,316 Speaker 2: really enjoyed the warmth that whatever narcotic is in there provided. 590 00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:36,396 Speaker 2: And I hadn't ordered it. I had only ordered the 591 00:35:36,396 --> 00:35:39,276 Speaker 2: antibiotics for my son, and so I was very surprised 592 00:35:39,276 --> 00:35:42,516 Speaker 2: by the appearance of this cough medicine and delighted that 593 00:35:42,596 --> 00:35:45,756 Speaker 2: it was there. And I really quickly did the math. 594 00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:48,236 Speaker 2: You know, I have two days with my kid at home. 595 00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:51,876 Speaker 2: My younger son was with my now ex husband. I 596 00:35:51,956 --> 00:35:54,516 Speaker 2: could enjoy the contents of this bottle and no one 597 00:35:54,556 --> 00:35:57,356 Speaker 2: would know, And so I kind of figured I would 598 00:35:57,396 --> 00:35:59,556 Speaker 2: wait till the end of the day. And you know, 599 00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:01,236 Speaker 2: I kind of rushed through his dinner, like hurry up 600 00:36:01,276 --> 00:36:04,676 Speaker 2: and eat eat your soup. We watched a couple of 601 00:36:04,716 --> 00:36:07,796 Speaker 2: shows and I waited for him to fall asleep, and 602 00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:10,516 Speaker 2: I went into my claw with it. I had had 603 00:36:10,556 --> 00:36:12,476 Speaker 2: a kind of a big closet and so I was 604 00:36:12,516 --> 00:36:16,836 Speaker 2: pacing around in there with this bottle, and I was 605 00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:20,556 Speaker 2: imagining how it would feel when I drank it, and 606 00:36:20,596 --> 00:36:22,756 Speaker 2: I was imagining how it would feel in my body 607 00:36:22,796 --> 00:36:24,916 Speaker 2: and when it hit my bloodstream, and what it would do, 608 00:36:24,996 --> 00:36:29,556 Speaker 2: and the warmth and the wonderfulness of it. And I 609 00:36:29,596 --> 00:36:34,156 Speaker 2: feel these arms around my waist, these hot, small arms. 610 00:36:34,876 --> 00:36:39,236 Speaker 2: Of course they belonged to my son. And he puts 611 00:36:39,236 --> 00:36:41,796 Speaker 2: his arms around me and lays his head against my back. 612 00:36:41,996 --> 00:36:44,756 Speaker 2: I'm still holding the bottle out in front, and he says, Mommy, 613 00:36:44,796 --> 00:36:50,356 Speaker 2: I need you, and that made me emotional too. I 614 00:36:50,436 --> 00:36:54,716 Speaker 2: went and put him back in bed, but he wouldn't 615 00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:58,196 Speaker 2: let me go, and that bottle was calling me from 616 00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:03,796 Speaker 2: the closet. But my son's voice was louder, and it 617 00:37:03,956 --> 00:37:06,076 Speaker 2: was like there was a mirror in front of me. 618 00:37:06,556 --> 00:37:11,436 Speaker 2: At that moment, I could see myself being reflected back. 619 00:37:12,436 --> 00:37:18,356 Speaker 2: Am I the mom who chooses her son over the 620 00:37:18,396 --> 00:37:21,516 Speaker 2: cough medicine? Or am I the mom who chooses the 621 00:37:21,556 --> 00:37:27,316 Speaker 2: cough medicine over her son? And I observed myself choosing 622 00:37:27,356 --> 00:37:32,716 Speaker 2: my son. And it's all about choice. I didn't always 623 00:37:32,716 --> 00:37:34,836 Speaker 2: have choices when I was in the throes of the addiction. 624 00:37:34,956 --> 00:37:37,156 Speaker 2: I don't care what people think about it. I didn't 625 00:37:37,156 --> 00:37:40,916 Speaker 2: have choices, but I had a choice in that moment. 626 00:37:43,076 --> 00:37:46,716 Speaker 2: And we woke up and the birds were singing and 627 00:37:46,756 --> 00:37:49,796 Speaker 2: it was bright out, and I gave the bottle to 628 00:37:49,876 --> 00:37:52,036 Speaker 2: my ex husband. I'm like, get this out of here. 629 00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:54,316 Speaker 2: I can't have it in the house. I couldn't go 630 00:37:54,356 --> 00:37:57,036 Speaker 2: through another night like that. Yeah, I do that back 631 00:37:57,076 --> 00:38:00,036 Speaker 2: and for it. So he was kind of like, okay, 632 00:38:00,076 --> 00:38:06,316 Speaker 2: but he took it, and that was truly the last 633 00:38:06,356 --> 00:38:07,276 Speaker 2: temptation I had. 634 00:38:09,196 --> 00:38:14,436 Speaker 1: You've now been fifteen years sober, Laura, and I'm curious 635 00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 1: to know how this experience has changed how you think 636 00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:22,156 Speaker 1: about ideal motherhood and how you carry that label. 637 00:38:23,036 --> 00:38:26,796 Speaker 2: It's change everything about the way that I view myself 638 00:38:27,116 --> 00:38:33,876 Speaker 2: as a mother, as a person, everything, because I had 639 00:38:33,916 --> 00:38:38,956 Speaker 2: never been completely honest about everything. I always told some truths, 640 00:38:39,236 --> 00:38:43,396 Speaker 2: but there were always versions of the truth. In the 641 00:38:43,636 --> 00:38:47,476 Speaker 2: twelve step recovery that I chose, one of the suggestions 642 00:38:47,676 --> 00:38:54,796 Speaker 2: is that the first principle is honesty. So I started 643 00:38:54,916 --> 00:39:00,236 Speaker 2: to be more vulnerable, which was really hard for me, 644 00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:04,156 Speaker 2: and let people into the fact that I had this 645 00:39:04,236 --> 00:39:07,476 Speaker 2: abusive childhood, that we were poor, that I dropped out 646 00:39:07,476 --> 00:39:10,196 Speaker 2: of high school that you know, I didn't lead with 647 00:39:10,236 --> 00:39:14,076 Speaker 2: those things, but I didn't hide them anymore. And I 648 00:39:14,236 --> 00:39:17,756 Speaker 2: have a woman that guides me through this twelve step program, 649 00:39:17,796 --> 00:39:20,636 Speaker 2: and I call her my Master Reel because I have 650 00:39:20,756 --> 00:39:23,796 Speaker 2: told her everything. She knows all about my life. She 651 00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:28,716 Speaker 2: knows the humiliation, she knows the relationships, she knows where 652 00:39:28,756 --> 00:39:31,476 Speaker 2: I was dishonest, and she knows about the harms that 653 00:39:31,516 --> 00:39:35,156 Speaker 2: I've done to others and myself. And there's just no 654 00:39:35,276 --> 00:39:39,076 Speaker 2: flinching away from those things for me anymore. I can't 655 00:39:39,396 --> 00:39:43,836 Speaker 2: sugarcoat them. The way I was living before, even before 656 00:39:43,876 --> 00:39:48,676 Speaker 2: the addiction, was terrifying because I had all these secrets 657 00:39:48,676 --> 00:39:50,836 Speaker 2: that I was afraid that everybody was going to find out, 658 00:39:51,356 --> 00:39:53,756 Speaker 2: and I was going to be exposed in this way 659 00:39:53,876 --> 00:39:56,716 Speaker 2: and either be cast aside or cast out. That was 660 00:39:56,756 --> 00:40:00,196 Speaker 2: my thinking. And I didn't think I had any fears 661 00:40:00,236 --> 00:40:02,036 Speaker 2: when I came in. I really didn't. I didn't have 662 00:40:02,076 --> 00:40:03,756 Speaker 2: my finger on the pulse of any of them. And 663 00:40:04,436 --> 00:40:07,076 Speaker 2: once I was able to enjoy sobriety a little bit, 664 00:40:07,916 --> 00:40:11,316 Speaker 2: there's a freedom there where I'm able to think in 665 00:40:11,436 --> 00:40:15,236 Speaker 2: my best interest and in the way the best interests 666 00:40:15,236 --> 00:40:17,596 Speaker 2: of others. It's a much different way than what can 667 00:40:17,636 --> 00:40:21,356 Speaker 2: I get away with or what can I present myself 668 00:40:21,396 --> 00:40:27,516 Speaker 2: as I love that freedom that I have in sobriety 669 00:40:27,556 --> 00:40:29,516 Speaker 2: of not having to hide anything. 670 00:40:29,716 --> 00:40:34,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, what has it been like sharing your story with 671 00:40:34,956 --> 00:40:39,916 Speaker 1: people after so many years of those secrets feeling threatening 672 00:40:41,236 --> 00:40:42,076 Speaker 1: when I was a mom. 673 00:40:42,076 --> 00:40:44,276 Speaker 2: I'm looking around and I'm thinking they were all given 674 00:40:44,316 --> 00:40:47,116 Speaker 2: the manual and I wasn't given the manual, Like what 675 00:40:47,196 --> 00:40:49,996 Speaker 2: did I miss? So that everybody knows how to do 676 00:40:50,076 --> 00:40:54,116 Speaker 2: this except for me? And now I realize these women 677 00:40:54,156 --> 00:40:58,156 Speaker 2: didn't get the manual either. They were running around watching 678 00:40:58,236 --> 00:41:00,716 Speaker 2: what everybody else did and trying to imitate. They were 679 00:41:00,796 --> 00:41:04,116 Speaker 2: keeping secrets the same way that I was, you know, 680 00:41:04,316 --> 00:41:08,316 Speaker 2: hiding their quote unquote ineptitude because they didn't want it 681 00:41:08,356 --> 00:41:10,556 Speaker 2: to be revealed that there was stuff they just didn't 682 00:41:10,596 --> 00:41:14,836 Speaker 2: know how to do or worse couldn't handle. And so 683 00:41:15,156 --> 00:41:18,356 Speaker 2: in hearing my story, they felt like they could share 684 00:41:18,396 --> 00:41:22,876 Speaker 2: theirs too, which you know, that's the best thing. Ever, 685 00:41:23,196 --> 00:41:25,116 Speaker 2: That's why you tell a story. 686 00:41:24,876 --> 00:42:00,196 Speaker 1: Right, Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed 687 00:42:00,196 --> 00:42:03,156 Speaker 1: my conversation with Laura, you might also like my episode 688 00:42:03,196 --> 00:42:07,116 Speaker 1: with musician Jason I Isbel. It's called Jason Isbel finds 689 00:42:07,156 --> 00:42:10,436 Speaker 1: peace with his past. We'll link to the episode in 690 00:42:10,516 --> 00:42:13,316 Speaker 1: our show notes and join me next week for our 691 00:42:13,316 --> 00:42:18,436 Speaker 1: conversation with the developmental psychologist Alison Gopnik. She says that 692 00:42:18,476 --> 00:42:22,276 Speaker 1: when it comes to creativity and problem solving, children actually 693 00:42:22,276 --> 00:42:25,156 Speaker 1: have a lot to teach us. See you next week. 694 00:42:35,636 --> 00:42:38,636 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 695 00:42:38,636 --> 00:42:42,476 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes 696 00:42:42,556 --> 00:42:46,676 Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 697 00:42:47,236 --> 00:42:51,556 Speaker 1: our producer Trisha Bovida, and our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. 698 00:42:52,476 --> 00:42:56,076 Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 699 00:42:56,196 --> 00:42:59,156 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 700 00:42:59,196 --> 00:43:02,796 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, 701 00:43:03,476 --> 00:43:07,236 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 702 00:43:07,316 --> 00:43:09,596 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 703 00:43:09,836 --> 00:43:12,516 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker. See you next week.