1 00:00:15,370 --> 00:00:22,730 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Those of you who know your memes may recall 2 00:00:22,770 --> 00:00:25,570 Speaker 1: the one about the science fiction author who writes a 3 00:00:25,650 --> 00:00:30,690 Speaker 1: cautionary tale about something called the Torment Nexus, only to 4 00:00:30,770 --> 00:00:34,450 Speaker 1: have a tech company finding only inspiration in that tale 5 00:00:34,650 --> 00:00:38,170 Speaker 1: and announcing, at long last, we have created the Torment Nexus. 6 00:00:38,290 --> 00:00:41,970 Speaker 1: From the classics sci fi novel Don't Create the Torment Nexus. 7 00:00:42,530 --> 00:00:45,410 Speaker 1: We won't be creating the Torment Nexus this week, but 8 00:00:45,530 --> 00:00:49,450 Speaker 1: we will be exploring the metaverse. Cautionary Tales will return soon, 9 00:00:49,650 --> 00:00:52,490 Speaker 1: but this week I couldn't be prouder to hand the 10 00:00:52,570 --> 00:00:56,810 Speaker 1: microphone to Eric Malinsky. Eric is the host of Imaginary Worlds, 11 00:00:56,930 --> 00:00:59,890 Speaker 1: a wonderful podcast about the imaginary worlds we create in 12 00:00:59,930 --> 00:01:02,810 Speaker 1: our art, why we just spend our disbelief in them, 13 00:01:02,850 --> 00:01:05,890 Speaker 1: and what they can teach us about ourselves. If you 14 00:01:05,890 --> 00:01:09,290 Speaker 1: don't subscribe, please do. I am a loyal listener and 15 00:01:09,330 --> 00:01:13,010 Speaker 1: I love the Imaginary Worlds podcast. In the episode You're 16 00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:15,890 Speaker 1: about to hear, Eric tries to figure out what happens 17 00:01:15,890 --> 00:01:19,730 Speaker 1: when one of the funniest, freshest pieces of nineteen nineties 18 00:01:19,770 --> 00:01:24,370 Speaker 1: science fiction, Neil Stevenson's Snow Crash, inspires a bunch of 19 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:29,410 Speaker 1: engineers at Facebook to create the Metaverse a cautionary tale 20 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:32,970 Speaker 1: for the ages. You be the judge. Here's Eric Melinsky 21 00:01:33,130 --> 00:01:38,210 Speaker 1: with Imaginary Worlds snow crashing into the Metaverse. You're listening 22 00:01:38,250 --> 00:01:40,650 Speaker 1: to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them 23 00:01:40,770 --> 00:01:45,170 Speaker 1: and why we suspend our disbelieve. I'm Eric Malinsky, and 24 00:01:45,410 --> 00:01:48,450 Speaker 1: pretty soon we might all be interacting with each other 25 00:01:48,810 --> 00:01:53,690 Speaker 1: in imaginary worlds. CEO Mark Zuckerberg introduced what he calls 26 00:01:53,850 --> 00:01:58,490 Speaker 1: the metaverse, a platform where users will interact in virtual 27 00:01:58,610 --> 00:02:02,530 Speaker 1: and augmented realities. People and companies are pouring hundreds of 28 00:02:02,530 --> 00:02:05,650 Speaker 1: millions of dollars into the vision of the metaverse. If 29 00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:09,370 Speaker 1: we think of the Internet something that we look at, 30 00:02:10,370 --> 00:02:15,450 Speaker 1: the metaverse is a version of the Internet that we're inside. 31 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:18,370 Speaker 1: This comes close to how the metaverse was first described 32 00:02:18,690 --> 00:02:21,650 Speaker 1: in a nineteen ninety two science fiction novel, snow Crash, 33 00:02:21,850 --> 00:02:27,490 Speaker 1: that coined the tone. Yes, the metaverse as it's being 34 00:02:27,530 --> 00:02:31,770 Speaker 1: imagined and proposed is heavily influenced by a sci fi 35 00:02:31,890 --> 00:02:36,330 Speaker 1: novel called snow Crash. And I love any story about 36 00:02:36,410 --> 00:02:43,290 Speaker 1: life imitating art, specially science fiction. Now, at first I 37 00:02:43,290 --> 00:02:47,010 Speaker 1: thought Facebook, which has renamed itself Meta, was building the 38 00:02:47,210 --> 00:02:50,370 Speaker 1: one and only metaverse, but they're actually going to be 39 00:02:50,410 --> 00:02:54,250 Speaker 1: competing metaverses from different companies that are all in development 40 00:02:54,330 --> 00:02:58,210 Speaker 1: right now. Facebook or meta is just trying to get 41 00:02:58,210 --> 00:03:01,410 Speaker 1: ahead of the game. And in the tech world, there's 42 00:03:01,450 --> 00:03:05,410 Speaker 1: a debate whether these metaverses should be fully immersive. Should 43 00:03:05,410 --> 00:03:08,970 Speaker 1: we put devices on our heads and enter into virtual worlds, 44 00:03:09,730 --> 00:03:13,170 Speaker 1: or should the metaverse be augmented reality where you're seeing 45 00:03:13,250 --> 00:03:16,810 Speaker 1: digital projections on the real world, either through a device 46 00:03:17,010 --> 00:03:20,370 Speaker 1: or even like a hologram of your co worker sitting 47 00:03:20,490 --> 00:03:25,210 Speaker 1: right across from you. But there's another question that critics 48 00:03:25,210 --> 00:03:29,410 Speaker 1: have been asking, should tech moguls and engineers be using 49 00:03:29,450 --> 00:03:33,490 Speaker 1: a thirty year old cyberpunk novel as a design spec 50 00:03:34,450 --> 00:03:37,850 Speaker 1: and don't they realize that snow Crash was a satire? 51 00:03:39,570 --> 00:03:41,290 Speaker 1: To give you a sense of snow Crash if you 52 00:03:41,330 --> 00:03:44,770 Speaker 1: haven't read it, The hero protagonist of the book is 53 00:03:45,050 --> 00:03:48,690 Speaker 1: literally named hero Protagonist now, though his first name is 54 00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:52,490 Speaker 1: spelled hi r O, it's short for Hiroki. His mother 55 00:03:52,570 --> 00:03:55,410 Speaker 1: is Korean but grew up in Japan. His father is 56 00:03:55,410 --> 00:03:59,930 Speaker 1: an African American. Hero lives in a futuristic Los Angeles. 57 00:04:00,410 --> 00:04:02,610 Speaker 1: More specifically, he lives in what used to be a 58 00:04:02,650 --> 00:04:07,050 Speaker 1: storage container. But hero is also a master hacker, so 59 00:04:07,090 --> 00:04:09,610 Speaker 1: when he logs onto the metaverse he can have the 60 00:04:09,650 --> 00:04:15,410 Speaker 1: powers of some kind of superhero. He is wearing shiny 61 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:19,090 Speaker 1: goggles that wrap halfway around his head. The bows of 62 00:04:19,090 --> 00:04:22,170 Speaker 1: the goggles have little earphones that are plugged into his 63 00:04:22,290 --> 00:04:26,050 Speaker 1: outer ears. Here is the actor of Varic boyd reading 64 00:04:26,090 --> 00:04:29,970 Speaker 1: from snow Crash. The goggles throw a light, smoky haze 65 00:04:30,010 --> 00:04:33,650 Speaker 1: across his eyes and reflect a distorted, wide angle view 66 00:04:33,890 --> 00:04:37,450 Speaker 1: of a brilliantly lit boulevard that stretches off into an 67 00:04:37,490 --> 00:04:42,250 Speaker 1: infinite blackness. This boulevard does not really exist. It is 68 00:04:42,290 --> 00:04:46,930 Speaker 1: a computer rendered view of an imaginary place. So Heroes 69 00:04:47,010 --> 00:04:50,170 Speaker 1: not actually here at all. He's in a computer generated 70 00:04:50,250 --> 00:04:53,410 Speaker 1: universe that his computer is drawing onto his goggles and 71 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:58,370 Speaker 1: pumping into his earphones. In the lingo, this imaginary place 72 00:04:58,690 --> 00:05:02,130 Speaker 1: is known as the metaverse. Hero spends a lot of 73 00:05:02,170 --> 00:05:04,770 Speaker 1: time in the Metaverse. It beats the shit out of 74 00:05:04,770 --> 00:05:09,810 Speaker 1: the US story. In the inner views that I've read 75 00:05:09,810 --> 00:05:12,890 Speaker 1: with Neil Stevenson, the author of Snow Crash, whenever he's 76 00:05:12,930 --> 00:05:15,970 Speaker 1: called some kind of profit, he brushes that aside and 77 00:05:16,050 --> 00:05:19,330 Speaker 1: says he was quote just making shit up. But the 78 00:05:19,370 --> 00:05:24,970 Speaker 1: novel is eerily pressent. Kevin Bangston researches the influence of 79 00:05:24,970 --> 00:05:29,050 Speaker 1: science fiction on real world technology at Arizona State University, 80 00:05:29,490 --> 00:05:31,730 Speaker 1: and he says, what sets Stevenson apart from a lot 81 00:05:31,730 --> 00:05:35,490 Speaker 1: of other cyberpunk novelists is that Stevenson as the mind 82 00:05:35,530 --> 00:05:38,930 Speaker 1: of an engineer, So when he was just making stuff up, 83 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:42,010 Speaker 1: it was still based on a very solid understanding of 84 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:45,730 Speaker 1: what the technology was capable of. You know, a good 85 00:05:45,770 --> 00:05:50,130 Speaker 1: example here is the sci fi feedback loop around space 86 00:05:50,170 --> 00:05:54,850 Speaker 1: travel and rocketry. That is the paradigmatic example of this 87 00:05:54,890 --> 00:05:57,610 Speaker 1: sci fi feedback loop in action, and it's basically exactly 88 00:05:57,610 --> 00:06:01,730 Speaker 1: what happened with snow Crash and Neil Stevenson. He created 89 00:06:01,770 --> 00:06:05,370 Speaker 1: this vision, we did not have anything like the technology 90 00:06:05,450 --> 00:06:09,370 Speaker 1: to get to it yet, but it was foreseeable, and 91 00:06:09,410 --> 00:06:12,490 Speaker 1: then you had the people inspired by his book going 92 00:06:12,570 --> 00:06:16,650 Speaker 1: off and actually building all of the intermediate technologies necessary 93 00:06:16,890 --> 00:06:21,610 Speaker 1: to get to that point. Stephen Pimental is an engineer 94 00:06:21,650 --> 00:06:25,570 Speaker 1: at a major company in Silicon Valley. Unfortunately I can't 95 00:06:25,610 --> 00:06:28,330 Speaker 1: tell you which one, but you have definitely heard of it. 96 00:06:28,770 --> 00:06:31,970 Speaker 1: I own many of their products. When he started working 97 00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:35,050 Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley, so many of his colleagues were reading 98 00:06:35,090 --> 00:06:37,890 Speaker 1: snow Crash. He heard one of them joke that he 99 00:06:37,930 --> 00:06:41,090 Speaker 1: wouldn't trust an engineer who wasn't a fan of snow Crash. 100 00:06:42,170 --> 00:06:46,370 Speaker 1: The joke actually makes sense in that if someone doesn't 101 00:06:46,450 --> 00:06:48,970 Speaker 1: know of snow Crash, you might almost take that as 102 00:06:49,530 --> 00:06:52,810 Speaker 1: a negative mark. You know, well, who are you, what 103 00:06:52,890 --> 00:06:56,010 Speaker 1: are you doing here? Kind of thing. Now, he heard 104 00:06:56,050 --> 00:06:58,850 Speaker 1: that joke when his first starting out. Jumping ahead a 105 00:06:58,850 --> 00:07:05,610 Speaker 1: few years, Stevenson discusses technologies that went on to become 106 00:07:05,730 --> 00:07:09,450 Speaker 1: Google Earth in two thousand and one, a Second Life 107 00:07:09,450 --> 00:07:13,410 Speaker 1: two thousand and three, a Google Books two thousand and four, 108 00:07:13,730 --> 00:07:17,690 Speaker 1: a YouTube two thousand and five, Seri two and eleven, 109 00:07:18,130 --> 00:07:20,730 Speaker 1: and even Oculus Rift, which came out in two thousand 110 00:07:20,770 --> 00:07:23,970 Speaker 1: and twelve. And the reason I bother to list out 111 00:07:23,970 --> 00:07:28,490 Speaker 1: all those dates is that Snowcrash was written in nineteen 112 00:07:28,690 --> 00:07:33,370 Speaker 1: ninety two, so well before these things came out. And 113 00:07:33,890 --> 00:07:36,410 Speaker 1: I don't think it was so much a matter of 114 00:07:37,170 --> 00:07:41,770 Speaker 1: looking ahead into the future and predicting things as giving 115 00:07:41,810 --> 00:07:47,370 Speaker 1: a vision that engineers then literally took as inspiration to 116 00:07:47,410 --> 00:07:51,090 Speaker 1: build products, in much the same way that the Star 117 00:07:51,130 --> 00:07:55,410 Speaker 1: Trek communicator became an inspiration for a lot of our smartphones, 118 00:07:56,210 --> 00:08:00,890 Speaker 1: so that the fictional imagination of technology can often shape 119 00:08:01,330 --> 00:08:07,770 Speaker 1: what engineers concretely work toward building. Now. To be honest, 120 00:08:08,090 --> 00:08:10,930 Speaker 1: whenever I've seen emotional videos of what the metaverse is 121 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:14,690 Speaker 1: going to look like, I've been a little underwhelmed. I mean, 122 00:08:14,730 --> 00:08:18,050 Speaker 1: it just doesn't look like this immersive virtual world that 123 00:08:18,130 --> 00:08:21,610 Speaker 1: I imagined when reading snow Crash. It looks more like 124 00:08:21,650 --> 00:08:24,850 Speaker 1: a combination of second life in the sims, except all 125 00:08:24,850 --> 00:08:29,210 Speaker 1: the avatars seem to be in work meetings. Genevieve Bell 126 00:08:29,490 --> 00:08:31,570 Speaker 1: is the director of the School of Cybernetics at the 127 00:08:31,610 --> 00:08:35,370 Speaker 1: Australian National University, and she says, if anything, we're really 128 00:08:35,370 --> 00:08:38,530 Speaker 1: just at a breaking point with the technology, and this 129 00:08:38,650 --> 00:08:42,450 Speaker 1: term that Stevenson came up with, the metaverse, has become 130 00:08:42,530 --> 00:08:46,570 Speaker 1: a rallying cry. I wonder if the metaverse is as 131 00:08:46,690 --> 00:08:49,610 Speaker 1: much about a tidying up of a bunch of technologies 132 00:08:49,610 --> 00:08:51,530 Speaker 1: of giving them a coherence than it is about an 133 00:08:51,530 --> 00:08:55,050 Speaker 1: actual technology per se. So it kind of becomes appealing 134 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:57,130 Speaker 1: because you don't then have to have the long list, 135 00:08:57,130 --> 00:08:59,730 Speaker 1: which isn't very interesting. So I said to you, Gosh, Eric, 136 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:04,970 Speaker 1: the future is VRAR five giot cloud based services and 137 00:09:05,050 --> 00:09:08,090 Speaker 1: some algorithms will also probably been of FPGA technology, and 138 00:09:08,170 --> 00:09:11,850 Speaker 1: maybe some you know something else you'd be like, that's nice. 139 00:09:11,970 --> 00:09:14,010 Speaker 1: I don't know what that is, but the metaverse makes 140 00:09:14,010 --> 00:09:16,170 Speaker 1: it sound like it's still here. I think it doesn't 141 00:09:16,250 --> 00:09:19,490 Speaker 1: hurt that it does have this science fiction echo. It's 142 00:09:19,530 --> 00:09:21,890 Speaker 1: sort of a word that feels familiar, or at least 143 00:09:21,890 --> 00:09:24,250 Speaker 1: like a familiar stranger, where people kind of like, oh, 144 00:09:24,250 --> 00:09:27,850 Speaker 1: I vaguely know that word. And the quality of Stevenson's 145 00:09:27,890 --> 00:09:30,650 Speaker 1: writing is a big factor in what's made snow Crash 146 00:09:30,770 --> 00:09:35,730 Speaker 1: so influential, Like he popularized the term Avatar through snow Crash. 147 00:09:36,650 --> 00:09:38,530 Speaker 1: Not all science fiction is good science fiction, right, and 148 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:41,010 Speaker 1: not all science fiction survives. And you know, if you 149 00:09:41,050 --> 00:09:43,530 Speaker 1: look at the ones who have shaped our language, the 150 00:09:43,690 --> 00:09:47,010 Speaker 1: choices of words we have about this space, right, I 151 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:49,810 Speaker 1: don't think it's just about the technology. I think it 152 00:09:49,970 --> 00:09:53,130 Speaker 1: is about the context in which it is embedded. I 153 00:09:53,170 --> 00:09:56,570 Speaker 1: think it's about the seductiveness of those contexts, or of 154 00:09:56,650 --> 00:10:01,130 Speaker 1: what those might feel like, all the completeness of them. 155 00:10:01,290 --> 00:10:04,890 Speaker 1: For instance, in this scene here, protagonist comes across a 156 00:10:04,930 --> 00:10:09,050 Speaker 1: piece of technology that looks remarkably like Google Earth. In fact, 157 00:10:09,210 --> 00:10:11,570 Speaker 1: Sergei Brynd, one of the founders of Google, has said 158 00:10:11,970 --> 00:10:16,010 Speaker 1: snow Crash is one of his favorite novels. There is 159 00:10:16,010 --> 00:10:19,410 Speaker 1: something new. A globe about the size of a grapefruit, 160 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:24,450 Speaker 1: A perfectly detailed rendition of planet Earth hanging in space 161 00:10:24,490 --> 00:10:27,850 Speaker 1: at arm's length in front of his eyes. Hero has 162 00:10:27,930 --> 00:10:30,650 Speaker 1: heard about this, but never seen it. It is a 163 00:10:30,690 --> 00:10:35,570 Speaker 1: piece of CIC software called simply Earth. It is the 164 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:38,970 Speaker 1: user interface that CICA uses to keep track of every 165 00:10:38,970 --> 00:10:42,530 Speaker 1: bit of spatial information that it owns, all the maps, 166 00:10:43,050 --> 00:10:49,130 Speaker 1: weather data, architectural plans, and satellite surveillance stuff. The level 167 00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:54,050 Speaker 1: of detail is fantastic. The resolution, the clarity. Just the 168 00:10:54,170 --> 00:10:57,370 Speaker 1: look of it tells Hero or anyone else who knows 169 00:10:57,410 --> 00:11:00,970 Speaker 1: computers that this piece of software is some heavy shit. 170 00:11:02,210 --> 00:11:05,810 Speaker 1: It's not just consonants and oceans. It looks exactly like 171 00:11:05,850 --> 00:11:08,730 Speaker 1: the Earth would look from a point and geosynchronous orbit 172 00:11:08,730 --> 00:11:14,330 Speaker 1: directly above La, complete with weather systems, vast spinning galaxies 173 00:11:14,330 --> 00:11:17,650 Speaker 1: of clouds hovering just above the surface of the globe, 174 00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:22,410 Speaker 1: casting gray shadows on the oceans, and polar ice caps 175 00:11:22,450 --> 00:11:29,090 Speaker 1: fading and fragmenting into the sea. I enjoy living in 176 00:11:29,090 --> 00:11:32,850 Speaker 1: a world with technology like Google Earth or Cirie. So 177 00:11:32,890 --> 00:11:37,130 Speaker 1: if the metaverse resembles what Stevenson imagined, what could go wrong? 178 00:11:38,930 --> 00:11:47,170 Speaker 1: That's after the break. Cautionary Titles will return with Imaginary Worlds. 179 00:11:47,210 --> 00:11:55,930 Speaker 1: After the break, we're back on Tim Haffitt. This is 180 00:11:55,970 --> 00:12:00,570 Speaker 1: cautionary Tales, and let's return to Eric Malinsky of Imaginary Worlds. 181 00:12:04,170 --> 00:12:07,010 Speaker 1: There's a famous quote by these science fiction writer Frederick 182 00:12:07,050 --> 00:12:10,170 Speaker 1: Paul that the job of science fiction is to imagine 183 00:12:10,210 --> 00:12:14,290 Speaker 1: not the automobile, but the traffic jam, and Neil Stevenson 184 00:12:14,290 --> 00:12:17,530 Speaker 1: does a lot of that in Snow Crash. Besides his 185 00:12:17,610 --> 00:12:21,810 Speaker 1: work as an academic researcher, Kevin Bangston also works at 186 00:12:21,970 --> 00:12:26,330 Speaker 1: Meta as their director of AI Policy, focusing on the metaverse. 187 00:12:27,250 --> 00:12:29,890 Speaker 1: He has heard this critique that tech companies should not 188 00:12:29,890 --> 00:12:33,250 Speaker 1: be using a satirical novel as a source of inspiration, 189 00:12:34,010 --> 00:12:36,570 Speaker 1: but he says the target of satire in Snow Crash 190 00:12:37,410 --> 00:12:41,370 Speaker 1: wasn't so much the tech itself. The target was really 191 00:12:41,490 --> 00:12:49,770 Speaker 1: of the increasingly deregulated, privatized, globalized, balkanized, digitalized, post Reagan 192 00:12:50,130 --> 00:12:53,690 Speaker 1: political economy, where, like you know, the federal government is 193 00:12:53,730 --> 00:12:56,450 Speaker 1: withering away. In fact, in the book, it is withering 194 00:12:56,490 --> 00:13:00,610 Speaker 1: away in part due to cryptocurrency related tax evasion, where 195 00:13:00,650 --> 00:13:04,210 Speaker 1: there's a much sharper, you know, financial division between the 196 00:13:04,210 --> 00:13:07,210 Speaker 1: halves and the have nots, and where in response to 197 00:13:07,250 --> 00:13:09,970 Speaker 1: the withering of state power you see criminal networks and 198 00:13:10,010 --> 00:13:14,650 Speaker 1: corporations and gated communities with their own laws that Stevenson 199 00:13:14,730 --> 00:13:17,690 Speaker 1: calls burbclaves have sort of stepped in to fill the 200 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:21,730 Speaker 1: gap and so like, that's definitely a dark vision and 201 00:13:21,890 --> 00:13:25,570 Speaker 1: it certainly has some political relevance for today, I think, 202 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:29,570 Speaker 1: but it's not really relevant to whether ARVR technology is 203 00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:35,570 Speaker 1: a positive development for consumers or for the world. But 204 00:13:35,850 --> 00:13:40,690 Speaker 1: Stevenson did foresee issues with technology. For instance, characters who 205 00:13:40,770 --> 00:13:44,450 Speaker 1: are more high status or have money, their avatar can 206 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:48,410 Speaker 1: be realistic. They can buy themselves nice digital clothes. If 207 00:13:48,450 --> 00:13:52,490 Speaker 1: they're poor or somehow low status, their avatar is jankie 208 00:13:52,730 --> 00:13:56,170 Speaker 1: pixelated black and white. And that plays right into the 209 00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:59,130 Speaker 1: idea of the digital divide, which Kevin says it's something 210 00:13:59,130 --> 00:14:01,930 Speaker 1: they talk about at META. I mean, I think the 211 00:14:02,050 --> 00:14:06,010 Speaker 1: hope for the field Meta included. I think the hope 212 00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:07,730 Speaker 1: for the field is that we are going to get 213 00:14:07,770 --> 00:14:11,210 Speaker 1: to a point, hopefully soon rather than later, where the 214 00:14:11,290 --> 00:14:15,210 Speaker 1: technology is cheap enough that it is as widely accessible 215 00:14:15,370 --> 00:14:19,970 Speaker 1: as smartphones are today, and smartphones today are essentially a 216 00:14:20,090 --> 00:14:26,930 Speaker 1: ubiquitous technology. But should this metaverse technology be ubiquitous? Lisa 217 00:14:26,970 --> 00:14:30,730 Speaker 1: Mssari teaches anthropology at Yale, and she focuses on how 218 00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:35,130 Speaker 1: people interact with technology. Part of like the metaverse is. 219 00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:36,970 Speaker 1: And you know, I've talked with some people who have 220 00:14:37,170 --> 00:14:40,490 Speaker 1: who have reaffirmed this. It's giving up the game. It's 221 00:14:40,530 --> 00:14:44,450 Speaker 1: saying we are going to live on a world that 222 00:14:44,570 --> 00:14:47,410 Speaker 1: is going to be increasingly hard to live in because 223 00:14:47,410 --> 00:14:52,050 Speaker 1: of environmental change, because of more and more friction in 224 00:14:52,170 --> 00:14:56,210 Speaker 1: social relations, because of device of politics, and why not 225 00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:59,930 Speaker 1: just create an virtual world in which we can escape into. 226 00:15:00,810 --> 00:15:04,090 Speaker 1: She thinks it's problematic how popular novels like snow Crash 227 00:15:04,130 --> 00:15:07,970 Speaker 1: are among engineers, or the novel ready Player one from 228 00:15:08,010 --> 00:15:12,410 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, which was very influenced by snow Crash. In fact, 229 00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:15,610 Speaker 1: Ready Player one was so popular among the engineers that 230 00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:19,290 Speaker 1: created Oculus Rift the VR headsets that are key to 231 00:15:19,410 --> 00:15:24,770 Speaker 1: Meta's metaverse plans. When Facebook acquired Oculus, everyone received a 232 00:15:24,810 --> 00:15:28,250 Speaker 1: copy of Ready Player one. The author came and gave talks, 233 00:15:28,650 --> 00:15:31,130 Speaker 1: and Ready Player one the villain was the big tech 234 00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:34,970 Speaker 1: company like, they're not the scrappy upstart, right, They're not 235 00:15:35,090 --> 00:15:37,090 Speaker 1: the people who are fighting against it. And the whole 236 00:15:37,170 --> 00:15:39,650 Speaker 1: resolution of this story is like, maybe we wouldn't we 237 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:43,610 Speaker 1: shouldn't be so online. This gets rationalized because what gets 238 00:15:43,650 --> 00:15:46,810 Speaker 1: taken away from these texts is not the social story, 239 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:52,090 Speaker 1: it's the shiny technology. Genevieve Bell has also been thinking 240 00:15:52,130 --> 00:15:56,050 Speaker 1: about the ethical problems in building immersive worlds like the metaverse. 241 00:15:57,010 --> 00:15:58,570 Speaker 1: But if you talk to go backfowth of them, that 242 00:15:58,730 --> 00:16:01,090 Speaker 1: so who else was building whole worlds and using the 243 00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:03,250 Speaker 1: latest technologies to do them? And then you can look 244 00:16:03,250 --> 00:16:07,370 Speaker 1: at things, ironically enough, like Disneyland in the theme box. Actually, 245 00:16:07,370 --> 00:16:08,690 Speaker 1: it's funny you mention that, because that's how you were 246 00:16:08,690 --> 00:16:10,730 Speaker 1: I thought were heading. I was like, are you heading 247 00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:13,210 Speaker 1: to Disneyland? I am heading to Disneyland, and more importantly, 248 00:16:13,210 --> 00:16:16,090 Speaker 1: Coney Island, because Courney Island comes first. One of the 249 00:16:16,170 --> 00:16:21,690 Speaker 1: things about building these virtual worlds that are often characterized 250 00:16:21,690 --> 00:16:24,530 Speaker 1: by the hyperreal in some way or another right is 251 00:16:24,530 --> 00:16:26,970 Speaker 1: that the onboarding and offboarding is always kind of complicated. 252 00:16:27,690 --> 00:16:30,930 Speaker 1: It's also the case that in building those worlds, part 253 00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:33,650 Speaker 1: of what is happening for you, as the person experiencing 254 00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:36,770 Speaker 1: them as a kind of quote unquote participant. Is that 255 00:16:36,810 --> 00:16:39,170 Speaker 1: there's an enormous amount of things in the background that 256 00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:42,330 Speaker 1: are made invisible, you know, whether that's the energy footprint, 257 00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:46,370 Speaker 1: the human footprint, the labor, the regulation that sits inside 258 00:16:46,370 --> 00:16:47,730 Speaker 1: of it, and all of that is in some ways 259 00:16:47,850 --> 00:16:49,890 Speaker 1: are a little bit like the Wizard of Oz. Right, 260 00:16:49,930 --> 00:16:52,410 Speaker 1: it's behind a curtain, it's behind a door, it's backstage, right, 261 00:16:52,410 --> 00:16:54,450 Speaker 1: and the metaverse will be in some ways no different. 262 00:16:55,050 --> 00:16:59,410 Speaker 1: What it is to maintain something like that will involve 263 00:17:00,130 --> 00:17:04,050 Speaker 1: data centers, which we know have an extraordinarily complicated energy footprint. 264 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:06,810 Speaker 1: We know it will involve an inordinate amount of technology, 265 00:17:06,850 --> 00:17:10,250 Speaker 1: the creation of which, the maintenance of which, ultimate decommissioning 266 00:17:10,330 --> 00:17:14,290 Speaker 1: and end life of which is an energy sync. We 267 00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:16,610 Speaker 1: know that there will be people whose labor is being 268 00:17:16,690 --> 00:17:21,050 Speaker 1: enacted to keep these places moving, who will have suboptimal experiences. 269 00:17:21,570 --> 00:17:23,450 Speaker 1: The other thing that all of these worlds teach us 270 00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:27,210 Speaker 1: and snow Crash too right, is that the technology is 271 00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:31,810 Speaker 1: not emancipatory per se. Extraordinary thing about snow Crash is 272 00:17:31,850 --> 00:17:34,050 Speaker 1: at no point, as its suggests that the metaverse is 273 00:17:34,290 --> 00:17:39,450 Speaker 1: a democratizing experience. It's quite clearly. It's quite clearly the opposite. 274 00:17:42,210 --> 00:17:46,130 Speaker 1: Like any place in reality, the street is subject to development. 275 00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:49,890 Speaker 1: Developers can build their own small streets feeding off of 276 00:17:49,890 --> 00:17:55,130 Speaker 1: the main one. They can build buildings, parks, signs, as 277 00:17:55,130 --> 00:17:58,650 Speaker 1: well as things that do not exist in reality, such 278 00:17:58,650 --> 00:18:03,010 Speaker 1: as vast hovering overhead late shows, special neighborhoods where the 279 00:18:03,090 --> 00:18:07,490 Speaker 1: rules of three dimensional spacetime are ignored, and free combat 280 00:18:07,570 --> 00:18:10,090 Speaker 1: zones where people can go and and kill each other. 281 00:18:11,050 --> 00:18:13,330 Speaker 1: The only difference is that since the street does not 282 00:18:13,450 --> 00:18:17,810 Speaker 1: really exist, it's just a computer graphics protocol written down 283 00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:20,970 Speaker 1: on a piece of paper somewhere. None of these things 284 00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:25,930 Speaker 1: is being physically built. They are rather pieces of software 285 00:18:26,330 --> 00:18:30,050 Speaker 1: made available to the public over the worldwide fiber optics network. 286 00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:33,370 Speaker 1: When Hero goes into the metaverse and looks down the 287 00:18:33,410 --> 00:18:37,410 Speaker 1: street and sees buildings and electric signs stretching off into 288 00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:41,930 Speaker 1: the darkness, disappearing over the curve of the globe, he 289 00:18:42,090 --> 00:18:46,810 Speaker 1: is actually staring at the graphic representations the user interfaces 290 00:18:47,530 --> 00:18:51,050 Speaker 1: of a myriad different pieces of software that have been 291 00:18:51,090 --> 00:18:57,650 Speaker 1: engineered by major corporations. The metaverse that Neil Stevens had 292 00:18:57,650 --> 00:19:02,250 Speaker 1: imagined is pretty small by today's standards. His Metaverse revolved 293 00:19:02,290 --> 00:19:07,490 Speaker 1: around a single location, a virtual street. Again, here's Lisa 294 00:19:07,810 --> 00:19:10,450 Speaker 1: in the first scene where people are on the street, right, 295 00:19:10,490 --> 00:19:14,410 Speaker 1: the main drag of the Metaverse. There's all these big billboards. 296 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:18,050 Speaker 1: Right there is this idea that you could capture attention. 297 00:19:18,130 --> 00:19:20,370 Speaker 1: Although it was in this kind of because the street 298 00:19:20,450 --> 00:19:24,890 Speaker 1: is very analog, right, it's buildings, it's a boulevard, it's 299 00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:28,450 Speaker 1: a broadway. The kind of notion of how advertising work 300 00:19:28,570 --> 00:19:31,530 Speaker 1: was also very analog, you know, the idea of other 301 00:19:31,570 --> 00:19:34,530 Speaker 1: ways of capturing attention and capturing vision. Just you know, 302 00:19:34,690 --> 00:19:37,250 Speaker 1: for Stevenson, who imagined so much, you know, good on 303 00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:40,890 Speaker 1: him that he didn't quite imagine that notion of like 304 00:19:40,930 --> 00:19:43,850 Speaker 1: what else can be captured. Even companies like Google, it 305 00:19:43,850 --> 00:19:46,850 Speaker 1: took them a while to really like lean into what 306 00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:49,130 Speaker 1: it kind of meant to be an AD forward company. 307 00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:52,730 Speaker 1: Being an AD forward company means having a lot of 308 00:19:52,730 --> 00:19:57,250 Speaker 1: sophisticated data surveillance, and surveillance is a theme and snow Crash, 309 00:19:57,370 --> 00:20:01,890 Speaker 1: but it's not about monetizing eyeballs. Stevenson thought that surveillance 310 00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:05,450 Speaker 1: would come from the government. In the novel, the CIA 311 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:08,890 Speaker 1: and the Library of Congress have merged into a single 312 00:20:09,130 --> 00:20:13,050 Speaker 1: organization called the CIC, which collects data by going person 313 00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:17,130 Speaker 1: to person using these characters called gargoyles. They don't look 314 00:20:17,170 --> 00:20:21,050 Speaker 1: like gargoyles. It's just a nickname, and not a complimentary one. 315 00:20:21,610 --> 00:20:24,290 Speaker 1: Gargoyles are addicted to the metaverse to the point where 316 00:20:24,290 --> 00:20:26,850 Speaker 1: they can't really distinguish between the real world and the 317 00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:32,850 Speaker 1: virtual one. The CIC brass can't stand these guys because 318 00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:36,730 Speaker 1: they upload staggering quantities of useless information to the database 319 00:20:37,330 --> 00:20:39,650 Speaker 1: on the off chance that some of it will eventually 320 00:20:39,690 --> 00:20:43,050 Speaker 1: be useful. It's like writing down the license number of 321 00:20:43,090 --> 00:20:45,410 Speaker 1: every car you see on your way to work each morning, 322 00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:48,170 Speaker 1: just in case one of them will be involved in 323 00:20:48,170 --> 00:20:51,890 Speaker 1: a hit and run accident. Even the CIC database can 324 00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:56,330 Speaker 1: only hold so much garbage, so usually these habitual gargoyles 325 00:20:56,370 --> 00:21:01,370 Speaker 1: get kicked out of the CIC before too long. Hero protagonist, 326 00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:04,810 Speaker 1: the gargoyle says is Hero finally tracks them down, and 327 00:21:04,890 --> 00:21:10,690 Speaker 1: the darkness beside a shanty sic stringer for eleven specializing 328 00:21:10,690 --> 00:21:15,450 Speaker 1: in the industry former hacker, security guard, pizza deliverer, concert promoter. 329 00:21:16,250 --> 00:21:18,610 Speaker 1: He sort of mumbles it, not wanting Hero to waste 330 00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:22,170 Speaker 1: his time, reciting a bunch of known facts The laser 331 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,890 Speaker 1: that kept jabbing Hero in the eye was shot out 332 00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:28,050 Speaker 1: of this guy's computer from a peripheral device that sits 333 00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:30,730 Speaker 1: above his goggles in the middle of his forehead, a 334 00:21:30,890 --> 00:21:34,250 Speaker 1: long range retinal scanner. If you turn toward him with 335 00:21:34,290 --> 00:21:37,930 Speaker 1: your eyes open, the laser shoots out, penetrates your iris, 336 00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:42,090 Speaker 1: tenderest of sphincters, and scans your retina. The results are 337 00:21:42,090 --> 00:21:45,050 Speaker 1: shot back to CIC, which has a database of several 338 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:48,850 Speaker 1: tens of millions of scanned retinas. Within a few seconds. 339 00:21:48,970 --> 00:21:51,610 Speaker 1: If you're in the database already, the owner finds out 340 00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:54,530 Speaker 1: who you are. If you're not already in the database, 341 00:21:55,050 --> 00:22:01,890 Speaker 1: well you are. Now. This ties into another concern for Lisa. 342 00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:04,490 Speaker 1: If we're going to be represented by realistic avatars in 343 00:22:04,530 --> 00:22:08,170 Speaker 1: the metaverse, our bodies will have to be scanned in 344 00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:10,650 Speaker 1: the same way that the latest iPhones can be opened 345 00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:14,690 Speaker 1: with a scan of your face. Where my caution comes 346 00:22:14,810 --> 00:22:17,170 Speaker 1: this is like my dystopian thinking of what our metaverse 347 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:20,610 Speaker 1: future is. Our bodies contain a lot of data. Your 348 00:22:20,690 --> 00:22:25,970 Speaker 1: movement data can be collected and stored, and there's a 349 00:22:26,010 --> 00:22:31,250 Speaker 1: wealth of studies and perceptual psychology which says how few 350 00:22:31,370 --> 00:22:35,090 Speaker 1: movement points are needed in order to identify someone that 351 00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:38,210 Speaker 1: we all actually have something akin to a fingerprint in 352 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:40,770 Speaker 1: the way we move. There's oh god, I forget which 353 00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:43,930 Speaker 1: oh upload have you seen upload? It's on Amazon's Amazon. Yeah, 354 00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:47,090 Speaker 1: So you know, in their future, there's like all these 355 00:22:47,450 --> 00:22:52,730 Speaker 1: giant corporate conglomerations. So it's like Facebook, Wegman's Apple, you know, 356 00:22:52,930 --> 00:22:55,570 Speaker 1: CBS has have all combined and that's you know, that's 357 00:22:55,610 --> 00:22:57,570 Speaker 1: like very plausible. And so imagine like a future in 358 00:22:57,570 --> 00:22:59,690 Speaker 1: which a tech company combines with like a health insurance 359 00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:04,850 Speaker 1: company or sells your data to a health insurance company. 360 00:23:04,970 --> 00:23:08,050 Speaker 1: Now that is pure speculation, and the company of Meta 361 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:10,450 Speaker 1: has been trying to count are these types of criticisms 362 00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:14,930 Speaker 1: by hiring many of their own critics. For example, before 363 00:23:15,010 --> 00:23:17,850 Speaker 1: Kevin Bangston worked for Meta, he also worked with the 364 00:23:17,850 --> 00:23:23,090 Speaker 1: ACLU and the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I was a critic 365 00:23:23,130 --> 00:23:27,810 Speaker 1: of Facebook on consumer privacy issues as a civil society person, 366 00:23:27,810 --> 00:23:29,970 Speaker 1: while also working with them on things we agreed on, 367 00:23:30,130 --> 00:23:34,650 Speaker 1: like trying to limit unwarranted government surveillance of digital platforms. 368 00:23:34,650 --> 00:23:37,770 Speaker 1: For example, I do think Facebook has made privacy mistakes 369 00:23:37,770 --> 00:23:40,090 Speaker 1: in the past. The reason I went to the company 370 00:23:40,210 --> 00:23:43,410 Speaker 1: was to help ensure it makes better decisions for new 371 00:23:43,450 --> 00:23:48,690 Speaker 1: technologies like AI. Whatever happens, the metaverse is coming, or 372 00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:52,890 Speaker 1: at least a multiverse of metaverses. So I wondered, is 373 00:23:52,890 --> 00:23:55,730 Speaker 1: there anything that we can learn from Hero protagonist in 374 00:23:55,810 --> 00:23:58,090 Speaker 1: the way that he navigates the metaverse and snow Crash 375 00:23:59,170 --> 00:24:02,970 Speaker 1: as an engineer. Stephen Pimental always admired hero sense of 376 00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:07,490 Speaker 1: agency in the book. If we want a positive theme 377 00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:12,050 Speaker 1: from snow Craft, it's that that's how we have to 378 00:24:12,130 --> 00:24:17,010 Speaker 1: view these technologies, to the extent that that we allow 379 00:24:17,290 --> 00:24:24,130 Speaker 1: the metaverse to simply become a sort of hypertelevision three 380 00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:28,050 Speaker 1: D television, a three D immersive television that's going to 381 00:24:28,170 --> 00:24:30,930 Speaker 1: end up being a very bad thing for us. You know. 382 00:24:31,090 --> 00:24:33,210 Speaker 1: One of the things you can take from snow Crash 383 00:24:33,370 --> 00:24:36,410 Speaker 1: is sort of don't do that. Try not to let 384 00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:39,370 Speaker 1: that happen with the technology. But regardless of what goes 385 00:24:39,450 --> 00:24:43,170 Speaker 1: on in the technology around you always be looking for 386 00:24:43,330 --> 00:24:52,010 Speaker 1: ways to retake and regain control. I've been talking theoretically 387 00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:55,210 Speaker 1: about the future. Most of this technology is still in development, 388 00:24:55,810 --> 00:24:58,450 Speaker 1: but Grace Ang is an example of how this is 389 00:24:58,490 --> 00:25:01,850 Speaker 1: playing out now. She's part of a group that created 390 00:25:02,090 --> 00:25:05,650 Speaker 1: NFTs called Crash punks that you can buy using stacks, 391 00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:10,770 Speaker 1: which is an open source blockchain for bitcoin transact I 392 00:25:10,890 --> 00:25:14,370 Speaker 1: recorded our interview before the crypto market crashed last summer, 393 00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:17,090 Speaker 1: but she told me in an email that her feelings 394 00:25:17,090 --> 00:25:20,530 Speaker 1: haven't changed, and that goes back to reading snow Crash, 395 00:25:21,050 --> 00:25:23,650 Speaker 1: which imagines a future where people have more faith in 396 00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:28,330 Speaker 1: decentralized currencies than the US dollar. The whole Stacks team 397 00:25:28,410 --> 00:25:33,090 Speaker 1: has been inspired by snow Crash. So the wallet that 398 00:25:33,170 --> 00:25:37,610 Speaker 1: we use in the Stacks ecosystem is called Hero Wallet 399 00:25:37,890 --> 00:25:42,610 Speaker 1: hi Ro, named after Hero protagonist and the NFTs they 400 00:25:42,890 --> 00:25:44,770 Speaker 1: are they characters in the novel. I think that's what 401 00:25:44,810 --> 00:25:47,410 Speaker 1: they look like. Yeah, yeah, so a lot of the 402 00:25:47,450 --> 00:25:52,090 Speaker 1: traits are inspired by characters and traits and snow Crash. 403 00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:54,810 Speaker 1: There's of course people with like kind of like the 404 00:25:54,890 --> 00:26:00,290 Speaker 1: goggles and the antenna and wires sticking out of their heads. Also, 405 00:26:00,370 --> 00:26:02,690 Speaker 1: Grace's group wants to create a version of the Black 406 00:26:02,730 --> 00:26:07,690 Speaker 1: Sun Club, which is the cool virtual nightclub and snow Crash. Yeah, 407 00:26:07,730 --> 00:26:11,690 Speaker 1: so this is something where building out. It's still on 408 00:26:11,810 --> 00:26:15,210 Speaker 1: the DL, but basically it's going to be accessible on 409 00:26:15,210 --> 00:26:18,530 Speaker 1: the internet. You just you go on and that would 410 00:26:18,570 --> 00:26:21,330 Speaker 1: be We're still exploring kind of like whether it's going 411 00:26:21,370 --> 00:26:26,010 Speaker 1: to be within VR AR or like a WebVR experience. Ideally, 412 00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:28,210 Speaker 1: the vision is you log in as your avatar, and 413 00:26:28,250 --> 00:26:30,370 Speaker 1: so that's kind of like the part of the roadmap 414 00:26:30,370 --> 00:26:34,130 Speaker 1: that we're working on is turning all the NFTs into 415 00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:36,810 Speaker 1: three D avatars and then once you log in through 416 00:26:36,810 --> 00:26:40,290 Speaker 1: your wallet and you can exist as your avatar, walk 417 00:26:40,330 --> 00:26:45,010 Speaker 1: around by land and hang out. And this would be 418 00:26:45,050 --> 00:26:48,010 Speaker 1: like an indie metaverse that they're building separate from the 419 00:26:48,010 --> 00:26:52,450 Speaker 1: big tech metaverses. I don't think it's one corporation that 420 00:26:52,490 --> 00:26:55,450 Speaker 1: owns the metaverse. I think it's all the builders who 421 00:26:55,490 --> 00:27:00,130 Speaker 1: are very passionate about turning either science fiction into reality 422 00:27:00,250 --> 00:27:04,850 Speaker 1: or just being able to extend themselves into the virtual space. 423 00:27:06,330 --> 00:27:08,130 Speaker 1: One of the things that I found interesting in talking 424 00:27:08,130 --> 00:27:11,770 Speaker 1: with Grace is seeing how much Neil Stevenson's novels from 425 00:27:11,810 --> 00:27:16,610 Speaker 1: decades ago are still irrelevant to cutting edge technology. In fact, 426 00:27:16,810 --> 00:27:19,450 Speaker 1: Neil Stevenson met with their group and at the end 427 00:27:19,450 --> 00:27:22,410 Speaker 1: of their video call, they gave him a Neil Stevenson 428 00:27:22,810 --> 00:27:26,530 Speaker 1: Crash Punks NFT that looks like a cartoon of him, 429 00:27:26,690 --> 00:27:29,610 Speaker 1: except his neck is full of gears in wires like 430 00:27:29,650 --> 00:27:33,050 Speaker 1: a cyborg, so Brett, can you reveal that to him? 431 00:27:33,530 --> 00:27:37,330 Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, wow, think of beauty. Thank you. 432 00:27:41,530 --> 00:27:45,610 Speaker 1: There is a very complicated and polarizing debate around NFTs, 433 00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:49,930 Speaker 1: but in my experience, whenever there's a tech revolution and 434 00:27:50,170 --> 00:27:53,210 Speaker 1: some people promise wonderful things and other people warn of 435 00:27:53,290 --> 00:27:56,330 Speaker 1: terrible things, both sides tend to be right to his 436 00:27:56,410 --> 00:27:59,570 Speaker 1: own extent. One thing I learned from snow Crash is 437 00:27:59,610 --> 00:28:01,690 Speaker 1: that if we're going to create a new world in 438 00:28:01,730 --> 00:28:04,690 Speaker 1: a virtual space, it's going to have the same problems 439 00:28:04,690 --> 00:28:08,970 Speaker 1: as the real world, just amplified in a brand new way. 440 00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:13,210 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter for avatars or photorealistic holograms or pixelated 441 00:28:13,370 --> 00:28:19,330 Speaker 1: icons or fantastical creatures. There's still us and we can 442 00:28:19,370 --> 00:28:25,490 Speaker 1: never escape ourselves. That is it for this week. Thank 443 00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:29,490 Speaker 1: you for listening. Special thanks to Genevieve Bell, Kevin Bangston, 444 00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:34,010 Speaker 1: Lisa Missi, Stephen Pimental, Grace Ang and Varick Boyd who 445 00:28:34,050 --> 00:28:38,090 Speaker 1: did the readings. My assistant producer is Stephanie Billman. You 446 00:28:38,090 --> 00:28:41,610 Speaker 1: can follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If 447 00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:43,850 Speaker 1: you really like the show, please leave a review wherever 448 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:46,770 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or a shout out on social media. 449 00:28:46,890 --> 00:28:50,250 Speaker 1: That always helps people discover Imaginary Worlds. And if you're 450 00:28:50,290 --> 00:28:52,730 Speaker 1: interested in advertising in the show, drop us a line 451 00:28:52,970 --> 00:28:56,570 Speaker 1: at contact at Imagining World's podcast dot org and I'll 452 00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:59,570 Speaker 1: put you in touch with our ad coordinator. 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