1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: After reducing interest rates by twenty five basis points straight 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 2: out of the gate in that news conference, asked an 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: obvious question, why do this when you're expecting inflation to 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: remain above target? The chairman acknowledging today was a closer 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: call that we've cut interest rates by one hundred basis 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: points across three meetings. The recalibration phase is over. We're 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: in a new phase. Things of foggier, the darker you 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 2: move more slowly. Well, this was the price reaction to 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: that in the market. Equities slammed down one point five 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 2: percent on the S and P on the natstack, down 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 2: by more than two the small caps. Some outperformance on 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: the small caps going into the decision, real underperformance coming 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: out of it, the small caps down by two point 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: eight percent. In the bond market, big move at the 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: front end of the curve, yields up across the curve twos, tens, 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: and thirties on a two year up by more than 18 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: ten to four thirty four eighty two. And off the 19 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: back of that and foreign exchanges, you might expect the 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: dollar stronger against everything in G ten ripping up em 21 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 2: you wrote dollar breaking down through one oh four and 22 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 2: threatening to do the same to one oh three. You 23 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: wrote dollar right now at one o three sixty four. 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: We all had questions about the forecasts. Why have you 25 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: bumped it up on inflation. Why are you projecting higher 26 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: inflation than you were projecting back in September. Why have 27 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: you reduced the number of interest rate cards from four 28 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 2: to two in the median dot for the dot plot 29 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five? Is it about the data or 30 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: is it about Donald Trump? Take a listen to the 31 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: Chairman of the Federal Reserve. 32 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 3: Some people did take a very preliminary step and start 33 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: to incorporate highly conditional estimates of economic effects of policies 34 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: into their forecasts at this meeting and said so in 35 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 3: the meeting. Some people said they didn't do so, and 36 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: some people didn't say whether they did or not. So 37 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: we have people making a bunch of different approaches to that. 38 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 3: But some did identify policy uncertainty as one of the 39 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 3: reasons for their they're writing down more uncertainty around inflation. 40 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: Compare and contrast that to what you heard from the 41 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: chairman back on November seventh. We don't guess, we don't assume. 42 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: We don't speculate. December eighteenth, some of us guests, some 43 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 2: of us assume, and Lisa apparently some of us speculate. 44 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: The we is doing a lot of heavy lifting at 45 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: a time where clearly he's reflecting a splintering committee that 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: is dealing with a whole host of different outcomes and 47 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: potentially political leanings. And I just want to go here, 48 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: this is going to be viewed through a political lens. Inevitably, 49 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: it already was threatening to do so. Now there are 50 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: some people who are incorporating highly conditional estimates. I wish 51 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: that we had learned more about what those estimates looked 52 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: like and whether they all were inflationary or whether some 53 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: of them were to slower growth. 54 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: Neil Datta wanted to jump onto the program. We can 55 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: bring them into the program right now, Nil Detta of 56 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: renmac neil. Is this federal resist on a collision course 57 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: with the incoming administration. 58 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 4: I mean, it certainly feels like they're tempting faith, you know, 59 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 4: I mean Powell's talking about he goes through a litany 60 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 4: of indicators talking about how the labor markets are cooling, 61 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 4: and then he, you know, in the same sentence basically 62 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 4: talks about how they're dialing back rate cuts. So I 63 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 4: think that that's that's a problem. And you know, I 64 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 4: think the the optimistic take around this is by making 65 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 4: the forecast adjustments that they've made, they're actually, in some 66 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 4: respects lowering the bar for additional action, you know, early 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: next year. So like two point five percent on core inflation, 68 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 4: I mean, that's a reasonably high number. And you know, 69 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: given what we know about rental inflation, that's probably going 70 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 4: to slow down, given what we know about you know, 71 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 4: consumer goods. You know, if you look at things like 72 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 4: freight rates, it's probable that consumer durable goods price is moderated, 73 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 4: you know, over the next couple of months, you know, 74 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 4: just as the new administration's coming into office. So you know, 75 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 4: I think they're signaling a pause. But it's also important 76 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 4: to remember that by March the forecast might look a 77 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 4: little bit different and they maybe they may have to 78 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 4: cut again. 79 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 5: Neil, you were my Economics of the year two years ago. 80 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 5: You were optimistic when few were. Now you've switched flat 81 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 5: out switches, no other way to put it. How off 82 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 5: is Atlanta GDP now at three point one percent? Is 83 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 5: Powell know something we don't know, and those visible present 84 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 5: numbers are just flat out wrong. 85 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 4: I never I never think. I mean, I don't think 86 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 4: the FED really has an economic forecasting edge of any 87 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 4: meaningful degree. You know, Tom, the FED doesn't have a 88 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 4: GDP mandate. So it's interesting to see how much Powell 89 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 4: was talking up gross domestic product, private final you know, 90 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 4: domestic sales. I thought that was pretty interesting, quite revealing, actually, 91 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 4: because that was sort of a way for him to 92 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 4: avoid the questions around the labor market. And we know 93 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 4: that duration of unemployment as an example, has gone up 94 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 4: by two to three weeks over the last couple of months. 95 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 4: Leaving that aside, I mean, you're right, I mean I 96 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 4: am more cautious. I remember two years ago, around this time, 97 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 4: the consensus was conditioned for you know, basically everyone was 98 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 4: penciling in recession, and all I did was point out 99 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 4: the fact that the labor markets were fine and housing 100 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 4: stocks were moving up into the right Fast forward to today, 101 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 4: it's literally the opposite situation. Everyone is sanguine on growth. 102 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 4: It's very difficult to talk about recession. No one really 103 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 4: wants to hear it. And at the same time, we 104 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 4: know that the labor markets are slowing by Powell's owned admission. Okay, 105 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 4: and just pull up a chart of homebuilding stocks. 106 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: Well, meanwhile, Neil, I just want to point out the 107 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: fact that other people are taking a different tack than 108 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: you are, as you say, your contrarian thinking that there's 109 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: more weakness in the market. Peter sheher saying this he 110 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: doesn't think is necessarily political. He said, this is a 111 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: fed that is worried that inflation isn't coming down fast enough. 112 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: And well, it might play in the back of their mind. 113 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: They aren't responding to fiscal potential policy on the margins. 114 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: Some are, but he's saying in general they are not. 115 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: Why do you disagree so fundamentally with that? 116 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 4: Just go through the go through the document, look at 117 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 4: the balance of risk to the inflation forecast. It's a 118 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 4: dramatic increase in the number of participants that see the 119 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 4: risk to headline and core inflation eskewed to the upside. So, 120 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 4: I mean, they can say whatever it is they want, 121 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 4: but based on the data, it's very difficult to justify 122 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 4: the distribution of risk that you see in the projections. 123 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 4: And how are the risks to inflation going up at 124 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 4: a time when labor is cooling and wages are slowing. 125 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 4: We know that recruiting intensity is down, we know that 126 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 4: quits rates have collapsed. Okay, that probably implies that there's 127 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 4: further cooling with respect to compensation growth between now and 128 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 4: the next couple of quarters. The dollar is surging today 129 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 4: because of what just happened, you have to start thinking 130 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 4: about what that might mean for the emerging market space, 131 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 4: because obviously these countries have a lot of dollar denominated 132 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 4: debt and that's going to imply tighter financial conditions in 133 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 4: those economies. So okay, I mean, I think based on 134 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 4: the data, it's really difficult to say that the distribution 135 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 4: of risks have changed that much. And Powell even said 136 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 4: that based on the inputs from core CPI and producer prices, 137 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 4: you'll probably get a pretty weak reading on core pc 138 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 4: inflation when that data are released on Friday. And the 139 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 4: big story again out of the inflation data over the 140 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 4: last week has been the normalization of housing rental inflation. 141 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, to me, this is it 142 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 4: feels a little bit like they're pre judging potential policy outcomes. 143 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: Em currencies right now getting hammered. Neil, I don't expect 144 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: the caller. I don't expect the tide, but maybe just 145 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: a jack in next time, Noil, maybe a jack hid 146 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: you know, for some post fed show commentary. 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 6: In the studio. 148 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 4: Back in the studio, I'll put on you know, my 149 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 4: my Gucci for you. 150 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: There we go. I'll make that happen, Neil, make it 151 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: happen soon and Neil appreciate it, sir, enjoy the holidays. 152 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: Neil Dutta there. 153 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 6: Showing up in a Christmas sweater. 154 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: I mean, next time, white t shirt was better. I've 155 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: got one with a better bad joke on the back. 156 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 6: Do you really a number ten? 157 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: Produce Christmas hanging like. 158 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: Not with like you know, jingle bows going on. 159 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 6: Like lights, its lights. It serves Monday. I mean it serves. 160 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 2: Monday, Monday, definitely when I'm not here. Sarah House of 161 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: Wells Fargo joins us. Now for more, Sarah, These forecasts 162 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: some controversy around them. Neil Duttter making the argument that 163 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: he believes that underpinning that shift in inflation higher in 164 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: those dots for the dots coming down from four cuts 165 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: to two, he believes as a real Trump effect in 166 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: the forecasts. Sarah, is it the data or is it 167 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: the incoming president. 168 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 7: I think it's a little bit of both. John, So, 169 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 7: I think you've seen certainly there's been a little bit 170 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 7: stronger momentum in terms of the inflation numbers. That's why 171 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 7: you got the upward revisions to the Q four numbers 172 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 7: here for this year. But I think when you look 173 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 7: at just the magnitude of the change as well as 174 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 7: the balance of risks. We heard pal say that at 175 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 7: least some participants included some assumptions around policy, and some 176 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 7: didn't say if they were. So I think there is 177 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 7: a little bit of recentering the risks around the forecast 178 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 7: within these projections. 179 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 5: Sir, When you do all the math at Wells Fargo 180 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 5: as you do with Jay Brice, and when you sum 181 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 5: it up, what are you going to watch forward to 182 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 5: the next FED meeting? I mean, Neil Dudda just said 183 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 5: GDP is not part of the mandate. Do we watch 184 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 5: the jobs report? Do we look at inflation? I mean, 185 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 5: what really matters in the guestimate forward into late January? 186 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's jobs and inflation. So I think after today's 187 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 7: meeting it's a little bit more on inflation. So I 188 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 7: think that's one of the big takeaways is we're seeing 189 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 7: that emphasis shift back towards more of a focus on 190 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 7: inflation after I think the labor market took more of 191 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 7: the spotlight in the late summers. We had a couple 192 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 7: week jobs report, unemployment rate going up pretty quickly there. 193 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 7: But I think today's Today's message was they have less 194 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 7: conviction about that downward path of inflation. So I think 195 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 7: the next few reports, especially getting through the first quarter, 196 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 7: where there's a lot of questions about residual seasonality. So 197 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 7: do we actually see enough of a slowdown where you 198 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 7: start to see that twelve month trend which Paul talked 199 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 7: about so much in today's press conference, do you see 200 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 7: that begin to come back down? But they are still 201 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 7: looking at the labor market, and I think that did 202 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 7: feature in not just today's cut, but also still what 203 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 7: is an easy bias where they do have a couple 204 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 7: more rate cuts penciled in for next year, because as 205 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 7: you heard Paul also talk about in the press conference, 206 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 7: they're still seeing that labor market. 207 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: Cool Right now, We're seeing markets respond pretty strongly to 208 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: this and people forecasting that maybe at least this is 209 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: the implication this could potentially make a more difficult circumstance, 210 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: particularly for smaller companies. From your vantage point on the margins, 211 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: if this is a FED that sees itself in a 212 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: dark room full of furniture or in a foggy land 213 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: that's moving more slowly that that on the margins is 214 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: going to slow your expectations, Sarah, for growth next year, 215 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: I think a little bit. 216 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 7: I mean, we're still looking for three rate cuts next year, 217 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 7: so not terribly different from what the FED has penciled in, 218 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 7: but of course when they come could have implications for 219 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 7: what happens with financial conditions over the coming months. So 220 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 7: I think when we look at the inflation picture the 221 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 7: rate picture, I think overall we're not seeing a meaningful 222 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 7: dialing back of policy in the months ahead to the 223 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 7: same extent that we were over the past four months, 224 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 7: where you still have the real rates you know, closer 225 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 7: to one and a half percent, so not much change there, 226 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 7: and I think that is still likely to be ahead 227 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 7: when particularly in some sectors like you know, Neil was 228 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 7: talking about home builders. So I think there's still certainly 229 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 7: some pressure in some of those more rate sensitive sectors 230 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 7: of the economy that are going to feel it a 231 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 7: little bit more. If the Fed's not going to be 232 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 7: cutting quite as much or quite as fast as what 233 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 7: they were thinking a few months ago. 234 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 2: The next twelve months is going to be quite a ride. Sarah, 235 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: thank you. I appreciate your time. Sarah House of Wells Fargo. 236 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: This is the FED Decide to Bloomberg Savaded Special live 237 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: on Bloomberg TV and on Bloomberg Radio if you are 238 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: just joining us. A twenty five basis point reduction from 239 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: the feder Reserve about an hour and thirty five minutes ago, 240 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: followed up by quit a news conference with the chairman J. Powell. 241 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: Lots of questions about the forecast. They revised their forecast 242 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: for inflation a bit higher for twenty twenty five and beyond, 243 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: and they took down their projection for interest rate reductions 244 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 2: for next year down from four in the medium dot 245 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: down to two. Off the back of that, there were 246 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: some questions about why cut interest rates at all. The 247 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: chairman called it a close call, said the recalibration phase 248 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 2: was behind us. We're in a new phase where we 249 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 2: have to move more slowly. Off the back of that, 250 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: Equerry is just getting absolutely smoked right now. We're down 251 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 2: by more than two percent on the s and P 252 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: five hundred down by close to four on the Russell 253 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: two thousand, some severe significant underperformance on a small caps 254 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: If you check out the bond market, we'll just take 255 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: a quick slice of it, the two year the yield 256 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: higher at the front end by double ditchits. The two 257 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: year yield pushing higher up by a round about ten 258 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 2: basis points on my screen at the moment, cool eleven 259 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: now to four thirty five. That's cross over. Toma McKee 260 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 2: was in the room in the news conference, Mike, you'll 261 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: big takeaway walking out of that room. 262 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 6: Well. 263 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 8: A number of interesting things in the news conference, including 264 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 8: the chairman talking about some members of the committee pricing 265 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 8: in some possible effects from the new Trump administration fiscal policies. 266 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 8: But the biggest takeaway that I had is that the Fed, 267 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 8: including the Chairman, are less confident. He wouldn't say he's 268 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 8: not confident anymore, but they are less confident about the 269 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 8: path of inflation. He basically said, it's come down, so 270 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 8: we think it's going to keep going down. But it's 271 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 8: not like we were seeing in the summertime, where they 272 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 8: were very convinced that inflation was on the right track 273 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 8: and headed to two percent, So that's really going to 274 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 8: inform their decisions as they go forward. The other thing 275 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 8: that I take away from this, John, interesting is we 276 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 8: need to rename this show because you call it the 277 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 8: FED Decides, but I would add the words the market disagrees. 278 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 8: If you look at the forecast now in the markets, 279 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 8: there is only one cut fully priced in for next year. 280 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 8: So we're going to have this tug of war back 281 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 8: and forth between the markets and the Fed. It seems 282 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 8: ongoing from here. 283 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: That tension continues. Mike, appreciate your time, sir, great work 284 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: as always. Join us Now is Jeff Rosenberg of Blackrock. Jeff, 285 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: I want your first thoughts. I asked the question to 286 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: Bob Michael at JP Morkan Asset Management, and I said 287 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: to him going into the news conference, are you more 288 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: or less confident embracing risk given what you've just learned 289 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: from the Federal Reserve? And Jeff, I want to ask 290 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: that question of you after that, are you more or 291 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: less confident embracing risk into twenty twenty five? 292 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 9: Well, you can see, Jonathan, you know this is a 293 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 9: surprise to markets, and so one of the things the 294 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 9: markets had hoped for was a FED that was very 295 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 9: much leaning towards easy financial conditions, focusing more on the 296 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 9: labor side than on the inflation side, and that was 297 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 9: pretty supportive to financial conditions and taking risks. So you 298 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 9: see the market reactions that you just talked about not 299 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 9: what markets were expecting. And so certainly that's a little 300 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 9: bit less favorable environment for risk taking because you have 301 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 9: a FED that has really kind of surprised me. I 302 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 9: think it surprised the market here in saying, hey, we're 303 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 9: more worried or as worried about the inflation side now 304 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 9: than we were about the labor markets, and that means 305 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 9: we're not going to be as quick to cut. And 306 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 9: it's the cut in the policy and the favoring of 307 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 9: easy financial conditions that was so supportive to taking risk. 308 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: Jeff, the reviews are coming in. That was one of them. 309 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: Here's some others. Steve Shivron worst performance worst power performance 310 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: is twenty one. They overreacted to labor market data in September. 311 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: Now they are overreacting to inflation data. Krishna MoManI, probably 312 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: the worst Russer so far of his tenure, seems to 313 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: support for this cut was quite spotty, but they went 314 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: ahead with it anyway, Jeff, do you agree with that? 315 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 10: Yeah, you know a lot of the sentiments in there 316 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 10: are about just how much the FED when they stopped 317 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 10: forecasting and became data dependent. The problem is they're dependent 318 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 10: on like as much as he said they're not trying 319 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 10: to be, it feels like they're dependent on the last 320 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 10: few data releases and so yes, going into September, it 321 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 10: was all about labor markets. Now it seems it's all 322 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 10: about inflation. I think one of the earlier guests end 323 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 10: and I would agree with this. You know, this is 324 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 10: not going to be a great forecast for where the 325 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 10: fed's future forecasts have been because they've been just so 326 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 10: whipped around by short term movements in data. And that 327 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 10: certainly is kind of frustrating. And Jonathan, you earlier question, 328 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 10: you know, makes it makes risk taking a bit tougher 329 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 10: because the FED signaling and what we're going to get 330 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 10: out of the FED is just that much more uncertain. 331 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 5: Atche Frozenberg, Ellen Meltzer, you're Carnegie Mellon come runer up 332 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 5: at Rock had a shadow Open Market Committee, which was 333 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 5: the first rule was stability. 334 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 6: Stability. 335 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 5: I don't see stability in EM I don't see stability. Granted, 336 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 5: it's a different story in generic China ten year. 337 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 6: They're going to open here in three or four hours. 338 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 5: Is Blackrock internationally concerned about the Asia opening here? 339 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 6: Call it seven pm our time? 340 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 10: So, you know, Neil mentioned it in his comments about 341 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 10: the impact. You know, the FED sets monetary policy based 342 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 10: on domestic US conditions, but the impact on the rest 343 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 10: of the world is as important, particularly when it flows 344 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 10: back into the United States. And how is the channel 345 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 10: for that flowing back. It's through the potential of tightening 346 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 10: and financial conditions. I think the tightening and financial conditions 347 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 10: from the dollar increase is going to be much more 348 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 10: front and center in emerging markets. What Powell talked about 349 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 10: is the exceptionalism. What no one really talked about was 350 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 10: what is the source of that exceptionalism? What is the 351 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 10: source of that exceptionalism. Partly, it's this incredible technology AI 352 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 10: wealth creation story that is feeding into positive animal spirits. 353 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 10: It's feeding directly into consumption through the wealth effect, and 354 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 10: so that creates a little bit of a buffer around 355 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 10: the US economy around some of the blowback issues you 356 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 10: raise in terms of currency open and Asia. So I think, 357 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 10: you know, we keep an eye on it, But so 358 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 10: far it's really this much bigger story about American exceptionalism, 359 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 10: which has a kernel a really important point of that 360 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 10: about this incredible wealth creation we're seeing coming out of technology. 361 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 2: Jeff, I'm pleased that Tom brought this up. The move 362 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: we're seeing on the screen, the phone exchange screen on 363 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: the Bloomberg terminal really lighting up. We've got a three 364 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: percent move on the Brazilian currency. Yet today we're talking 365 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: about a move of twenty three percent on the Brazilian currency, 366 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: twenty one on the antentigin PA. So we're looking at 367 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 2: something like seventeen percent on the Mexican pay. So, Jeff, 368 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: as I look around the world beyond DM, not just 369 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: the Europe, but including Asia and China specifically, China is 370 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: looking at a disinflation rebust potentially. The chart of the 371 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 2: yields government bond yields in China just lower, lower, lower, 372 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: and rolling over into year end. Jeff, how much divergence 373 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: do you expect for the US versus the rest of 374 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: the world in twenty five. 375 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, we're really exiting. 376 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 10: We talked about exiting the phase of monetary policy. We're 377 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 10: also exiting this phase of kind of harmonized macroeconomic implications 378 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 10: for inflation that was then feeding into harmonization for central 379 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 10: bank policies, and so as kind of the reasons that 380 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 10: Powell talked about for that decline in inflation without kicking 381 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 10: up unemployment rate, it was really about the restoration of 382 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 10: supply chains and the post COVID impact that was a 383 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 10: global impact that's now starting to dissipate, and what's coming 384 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 10: in and the aftermath of that are a lot more 385 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 10: of the idiosyncratic country specific fundamentals driving those economies performance 386 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 10: the currency you mentioned a bunch of different countries there, 387 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 10: from Brazil to Argentina to China. That's really all about 388 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 10: domestic economic policies economic performance that is driving. And so 389 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 10: that's really a market environment of divergences rather than convergences, 390 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 10: and so that's really affecting the investment outlookause, particularly for 391 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 10: investing between the markets in what I call a cross 392 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 10: section that's actually a better investment environment. It takes out 393 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 10: kind of the directional call is the dollar going up, 394 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 10: is the dollar going down? You have a lot more 395 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 10: opportunities within that global cross section of investing both in 396 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 10: currencies FX curves. It actually creates a better environment in 397 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 10: some sense for alpha creation, because divergences create more alpha opportunity. 398 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: Jeff, you've said a number of times that because of 399 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: the increase in uncertainty at the FED to reserve, an 400 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: increase and uncertainty as to the path of their policy, 401 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: that it makes you less inclined to take risk on 402 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: the margins, which risk in particular looks most vulnerable to 403 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: you or less attractive as a result of increasing uncertainty 404 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: on the FED. 405 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 10: Yeah, and if I get I want to pair that 406 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 10: to my last answer, because you know that's the directional call, right, 407 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 10: So is the FED easing financial conditions, raising the value 408 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 10: of prices makes risk taking more supportive? Then that's really 409 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 10: talking about risk taking in in the beta sense, in 410 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 10: the directional space. So where are you more vulnerable just 411 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 10: to your beta exposure, beta exposure to directional rates, beta 412 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 10: exposure to your directional equities. But the divergences question earlier 413 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 10: about the impact thinking about globally that actually makes risk 414 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 10: taking better in the alpha and the cross sectional space. 415 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 10: So it's about portfolio construction and it's about how much 416 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 10: am I putting risk on in terms of directional space. 417 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 10: That's really where the FED today that you want to 418 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 10: be taking down the flip side is in the alpha 419 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 10: space in the cross section. It's actually a better environment. 420 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 10: That's where you want to be adding risk into the portfolio. 421 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 6: HF. 422 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: I appreciate your time, Sir Jeff Rosenberg of black Rock. Enjoy 423 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: the holidays remaining the team will take you through the 424 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 2: clothes in just the moment. Tesla's want to watch going 425 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: into the close down ten percent of the moment in 426 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: this session, have to sort of acknowledge that we're up 427 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 2: still about twenty percent this month alone. A couple of 428 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 2: things to note here, Lisa, the year so far Q one, 429 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 2: inflation headfake Q three, labor market head fake Q four. 430 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 2: This FED looking just a little bit lost. 431 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: And honestly, the market is responding to being a little 432 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: bit lost by selling off in a dramatic fashion. 433 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 6: I'm speechless. 434 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 5: I think it's going to be interesting, particularly on watching 435 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 5: FX into the Japan open. 436 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: Could not agree more. This dollar is a whole lot stronger. 437 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: Just how much oxygen is left up here? Your equority 438 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: market's down as session loads with a negative two point 439 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: nine percent from New York. Thank you for choosing Bloomberg 440 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 5: M