1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Podcast Playground. 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 2: I'm Buzznight, the host of Taking a Walk Music History 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: on Foot. Find us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the Podcast Playground, 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcast Today. Our guest is 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 2: Joel Selvin, a legendary San Francisco based music critic and 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: author known for his weekly column in the San Francisco Chronicle. 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: He's written multiple books covering everything from Altamont to Slie 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: in the Family Stone to Sammy Hagar, and he has 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: always been in the middle of music history. We'll talk 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: to Joel Selvin next on Taking a Walk. 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: So, Joel Salvin, when did you find your voice as 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: a writer. That's presuming I have. I don't know, Buzz. 13 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, voice is like that's kind of 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 3: the highest aspiration of writing. And sometimes I find that 15 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 3: I found a voice and then I lose it. 16 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 4: I started writing early on in life, you know, that 17 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 4: was just something that I resonated with, even at school, 18 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 4: which I was a terrible student and eventually dropped out 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 4: of high school. And then I went to work in 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 4: the newspaper business. And they don't really like stand on 21 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 4: much ceremony about writing in the newspaper business. 22 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: You know, you got to get it in. 23 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 4: On time, and make sure it's in English, and somebody 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 4: else will straighten out the punctuation and misspellings. So, you know, 25 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 4: over thirty plus years in the newspaper, every article got 26 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 4: a little better. And so now I'm like, I left 27 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 4: the newspaper business in O nine and started concentrating on 28 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 4: long form journalism, you know, books, and since nine, I 29 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 4: think I think I'm putting out my twelfth and thirteenth 30 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 4: book this year. So those, each one of those has 31 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 4: gotten a little bit better. 32 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 5: So how badly really did you detest school? 33 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: Though? Did you just hate it to death? School was 34 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: slow for me. 35 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 4: I had other things that I was interested in. There's 36 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 4: other places that were more awarding to be. I spent 37 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 4: a lot of time in the public library, oddly enough, 38 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 4: although I also did spend time in the pool hall 39 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 4: up the street. 40 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. School, I mean it was the sixties, man. There 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: were other things going on, Yes, there were plenty of 42 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: other Do you remember that. 43 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 5: First moment that you walked into the San Francisco Chronicle? 44 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: I do, I do. Yeah. 45 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 4: I was seventeen years old. I had been hired as 46 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 4: a copy boy, and it was September of nineteen sixty 47 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 4: seven and I walked into the Chronicle City Room. There's 48 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 4: this giant one room that everybody that works for newspaper 49 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 4: is at a desk, and there's these pillars down the 50 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 4: center of the room. There are no trash camps. Everybody 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 4: just crumples up stuff and throws it on the floor. 52 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 4: And the pillars are covered with stuff that people have 53 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 4: cut out of the paper and pasted on it, just 54 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 4: headline words and goofy pictures. And I had spent my 55 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 4: whole life being told I didn't fit in. 56 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: It was not something I understood, like fit into what. 57 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 4: But when I walked into that room and I just 58 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 4: took in the atmosphere and saw the people, and before 59 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 4: I walked halfway back to where my table was, I 60 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 4: realized that I was in a room full of people 61 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 4: who had been told the same thing. We were a 62 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 4: collection of people who didn't fit in, and I was 63 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 4: just instantly at home. 64 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 5: And I have to think, based on that period of time, 65 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 5: there was a ton of interesting characters that were part 66 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 5: of that room. 67 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, we still had the old guys from the front page, 68 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 4: you know, from before the Second World War. Charlie wrote 69 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,119 Speaker 4: a bah had a little waxed mustache that he spun 70 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 4: into a little curl, and he had this tweed hat 71 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 4: and he would he would come in and he had 72 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,239 Speaker 4: push the tweed hat back on his head type with two. 73 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: Fingers at about ninety words a minute. 74 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:03,799 Speaker 4: And Charlie broke a murder case that the cops couldn't handle. 75 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: And then there was George Draper. 76 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 4: George fought in the Spanish Civil War with the Abraham 77 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 4: Lincoln Brigade, and he was this incredibly elegant sort of 78 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 4: aristocratic character who wrote his bicycle into work from sasslito. 79 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: George was just a remarkable character. 80 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 4: I crossed paths with him when a gal was murdered 81 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 4: in a recording studio and I volunteered that I knew 82 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 4: who she was, and so they sent me out to 83 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 4: her parents' house to get a picture. 84 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 5: And what about this gentleman by the name of Ralph Gleeson. 85 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 4: Well, Ralph was a huge figure in the world of 86 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 4: popular music criticism. He started writing for The Chronicle somewhere 87 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 4: around like nineteen forty nine nineteen fifty, and. 88 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: He was the. 89 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 4: First regular pop music critic to write for a daily newspaper, 90 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 4: The New York Times didn't have one for a couple 91 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 4: of years, and Ralph was mostly a jazz critic at 92 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 4: that point because that's where the action was. But his 93 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 4: coverage ranged far and wide. He drove out to San 94 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 4: Pablo to review Hank Williams. He caught Fast Domino at 95 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 4: an R and B show in nineteen fifty two. People 96 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 4: like Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington that he routinely covered 97 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 4: were astonished to find themselves being the subject of newspaper 98 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 4: articles in mainstream, establishment, white newspapers. 99 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: So Gleason was this. 100 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 4: Incredible pioneer and pathfinder in the world of popular music 101 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 4: crit His only peers were Learning feathered out the Los 102 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 4: Angeles Times and Nat Hintoff. 103 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 1: At the Village Voice. 104 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 4: Now I grew up reading Ralph in the Chronicle, and furthermore, 105 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 4: I went to high school with his kids. So Ralph 106 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 4: loomed very large in my sort of like forming my 107 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 4: impressions about how this job went and what music was about. 108 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 4: And you know, back in those days, if you had 109 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 4: an intellectual curiosity about music, there were very few places 110 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 4: to turn. I used to spend after school afternoons in 111 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 4: record stores reading liner notes because that was a repository 112 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 4: of information. 113 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: There weren't books about this music, but there. 114 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 4: Were linerros By Glease and in Hintoff and Feather and 115 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 4: a lot of these guys that were part of the 116 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: record business back in the fifties and sixties. So that 117 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 4: was and then Ralph had three columns Monday, Wednesday and 118 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 4: Friday and two on Sunday. 119 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: So there was plenty of Ralph in the paper. And 120 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: he saw his. 121 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 4: Bailey Wick being far and wide. I mean, he wrote 122 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 4: extensively about World War two history. It was virulent anti Nazi. 123 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: He wrote a lot about free speech issues, and he 124 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 4: wrote a lot about jazz. And then when the San 125 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 4: Francisco rock scenes started to happen, he was there from 126 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 4: the very moment. Ralph had that newspaper man's instinct for 127 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 4: a good story, and so when this stuff started to 128 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 4: take place, it got covered in the chronicle, and that 129 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 4: was a window into this new and exciting scene going 130 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 4: on that you couldn't get anywhere else. It was nothing 131 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 4: on the radio. There were no underground newspapers, there were 132 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 4: no Rolling Stones or music magazines. 133 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: But you could read about it in Ralph's columns, and 134 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: that became a huge advantage to the scene. I mean 135 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: he grew that scene. He was a multiplying effect. 136 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 4: And then when Ralph retired from the Chronicle in nineteen 137 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 4: seventy to go to work at Fantasy Records, he was 138 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 4: his replacement. John Wasserman subsequently hired me to be his assistant, 139 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 4: and that's where I entered the picture, right in the 140 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 4: shadow of Ralph Gleeson. And there was one point, much 141 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 4: much later in my career where I had had serious 142 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 4: beef with management, and I think they wanted me to quit, 143 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 4: but you know, I ended up slapping him down with 144 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 4: an age discrimination beef and I was like radioactive in 145 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 4: the city room. 146 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to tell me to do anything. 147 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 6: You know. 148 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: It was like leave self and alone. 149 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 4: And I was in a pretty bad mood about my 150 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: job at the time too, So I spent three weeks 151 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 4: coming to the paper and going downstairs in the basement 152 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 4: where they kept the files, and I read an order 153 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 4: of appearance every article that Ralph wrote for the Chronicle. 154 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 4: In the end, I wrote a one hundred inch article 155 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 4: about Gleason. And what I read one hundred inches in 156 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 4: a newspaper, by the way, is like war and peace 157 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 4: or something. It took months to get thing for that 158 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 4: thing to see print. But that was kind of a 159 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: way that I reconnected with my bliss and figured out 160 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 4: what my roots were and. 161 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: Looked into this whole thing. 162 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 4: And you know, that's Ralph and he looms over all 163 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 4: of us that write about pop. 164 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: Music in this country. 165 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 5: Is there anything that you wish that you asked him 166 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 5: that you never had the chance to ask him? Oh? 167 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: I got there. I got hooked up back with Ralph. 168 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: At some point at Fantasy Records. 169 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 4: I was there talking to the publicity director and Ralph 170 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 4: wandered into the office and he was very antipathetical with 171 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 4: my boss, John Wasserman, and you know, as an Irish guy, 172 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 4: kept grudges. 173 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 5: Uh. 174 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 4: So that afternoon, ralph'spent about two hours just talking to 175 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 4: me about what he thought I should know and lots 176 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 4: of stuff he told me. 177 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: Uh. 178 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 4: Stayed with me for the rest of my time at 179 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 4: the Chronicle, And then that night I paved a phone 180 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 4: call in between him and Wasserman, and so that got 181 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 4: paved over and and and and fixed. 182 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: Uh. And from then on I had full access to Ralph. 183 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 4: He would call me if I wrote something that he 184 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 4: thought was interesting, or send me a letter. 185 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: I remember letters, uh and uh. 186 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 4: The last time I talked to Ralph was about a 187 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 4: week before he died, and he called to talk about 188 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 4: the death of the radio disc jockey Tom Donahue, who 189 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 4: was was was a huge loss to San Francisco, huge 190 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 4: And I remember Ralph's benediction was, yeah, he was a 191 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 4: good cat. And that was like the blessing from Ralph Gleason, 192 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,599 Speaker 4: Yeah he was a good cat. So I had a 193 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 4: lot of direction from Ralph on and a lot of 194 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 4: things that he said guided me. And there was you know, 195 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 4: a good period of time like you know, when I 196 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 4: was starting out or if I had a question, I 197 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 4: could actually pick up the phone and call him and 198 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 4: chat with him. 199 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, No, Ralph was an authentic mentor. He had 200 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: hands on with me. So with the newspaper. 201 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 5: Business that's going through, you know, all these shifts and 202 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 5: downturns obviously to this to this day, what was the 203 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 5: ownership like of the Chronicle back in that day, Well, the. 204 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: Chronicle was owned by a one family. 205 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 4: It was a little bit like working for, you know, 206 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 4: an aristocratic group of people who had sort of Republican 207 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 4: inclinations but ran a kind of democrat newspaper. There was 208 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 4: always some sort of tension between that and we knew 209 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: in the Sunday paper. We knew the double check the 210 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 4: Sunday crossword puzzle because the publisher's wife read it, and 211 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 4: if there was a typo or a mistake, that was 212 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 4: Monday morning problem. As time went on, the younger generation 213 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 4: of newspaper owners would connect with me to get tickets 214 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 4: to rock concerts and ultimately join me covering shows, so 215 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 4: that like Joe Tobin and Niaan McAvoy, they were my pals. 216 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 4: We would go out to shows together and they were 217 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 4: like happy to be going to the rock show with 218 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 4: the paper's news music critic. 219 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,119 Speaker 1: It'd be like going to the football game with the sportswriter. 220 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 5: So what do you think in those rare instances where 221 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 5: a you know, truly local, small town paper. 222 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: Exists, how important is that to somebody like you? I 223 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: don't know what's up. The future of journalism is. 224 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 4: The Internet has obviously overwhelmed our culture, and the effect 225 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 4: on newspapers has been deleterious to the extreme. I left 226 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 4: my job at the Chronicle in two thousand and nine. 227 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 4: Hurst Corporation was losing a million dollars a week. At 228 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 4: that newspaper, one hundred and twenty editorial employees left their 229 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 4: jobs that year. There had been a substantial departure the 230 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 4: year before, and there was a substantial departm the year after, 231 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 4: So they just whittled it down to this, really you know, 232 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 4: skeleton crew, many many young people, because the old people 233 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 4: were the ones that walked the plank, and with them 234 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 4: went all the institutional lore, a hundreds, if not thousands 235 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 4: of years of experienced knowledge, contact resources. So not only 236 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 4: did they lose their audience, but they lost their professional level. 237 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 4: I mean, I remember going to New York the year 238 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 4: I left the paper and having drinks with some guys 239 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 4: that made their living selling magazine articles, and how they're 240 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 4: belly aching about how ten thousand daily newspaper guys had 241 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 4: lost their job across the country and we're going to 242 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 4: be trying to sell magazine articles. Of course, magazines all 243 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 4: are empty nowt too. I mean that market dried up 244 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 4: and went away. I don't have an incredible vision for that. 245 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: But your question about local news sources, so it speaks 246 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 4: to the real vulnerability of like, who's covering the city 247 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 4: councils in this country now and what are they getting 248 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 4: away with without newspaper guys that know what's going on 249 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 4: watching what they do. 250 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh, you know, nextdoor dot com doesn't 251 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: make it. 252 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 5: So you were You were on the scene when the 253 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 5: legendary for more West first began. How did Bill Graham 254 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 5: pull off building that special place? 255 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 4: Bill Graham was an interesting guy, a really powerful personality 256 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 4: and the compulsive, obsessive narcissism that you know, powers that 257 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 4: kind of world beating, empire building attitude. He didn't really 258 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 4: understand what he stumbled onto, so it's even more miraculous 259 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 4: than it might see. 260 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: You know, it just sort of happened to Bill. He 261 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: was an actor who had. 262 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 4: Failed in his acting career and moved to San Francisco 263 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 4: and was working as an office manager for Alice Chalmers, 264 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 4: who rented out office furniture. To keep his hand in 265 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 4: the theatrical world, he became the business manager for a 266 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 4: local left wing theater group called the San Francisco Meme Troop, 267 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 4: and they were arrested on obscenity charges for producing a 268 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 4: sixteenth century Italian play in a public park, and in 269 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 4: order to raise money for their defense fund, some of 270 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 4: the people in the theater group put together a benefit 271 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 4: featuring some of these new rock bands that were around town, 272 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 4: and the thing was so successful it was beyond anybody's imagination. 273 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 4: So Bill had a second benefit and that was real successful. 274 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: That one. 275 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 4: He rented an auditorium in a black neighborhood called the 276 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 4: Fillmore Auditorium sixty dollars a night, and he did a 277 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 4: third benefit, and then a month later he started throwing 278 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 4: concerts there on his own. Now Bill didn't know one 279 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 4: band from another, and he knew nothing about music outside 280 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 4: of Latin music, which had been an enthusiasm of his 281 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 4: growing up in New York in the fifties. 282 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: But he had this street smart sense of who knew 283 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: what and who he could lean on for this and that. 284 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 4: His first partner was a guy named Chet Helms, and 285 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 4: he used to tell this story about how he got 286 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 4: up early and called New York while Chet was still asleep, 287 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 4: and that's the end of that partnership. He booked the 288 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 4: Paul Butterfield Blues Band. But Butterfield Blues Band showed up 289 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 4: in town. They were huge in San Francisco sixty six. 290 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 4: They were everything all the other bands wanted to be. 291 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 4: And Mike Field was this enormous figure of repute and 292 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 4: and recognition. And Bloomfield was the one who started telling 293 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 4: Bill Yacht, you got to bring in the guys from 294 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 4: Chicago like Muddy Waters and Junior Wells and and and 295 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 4: the blues guys uh. 296 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: And bb King Uh. 297 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 4: And then as the film wore went on and and uh, 298 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 4: he hired a guy named Paul Baratta. 299 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: And Paul knew all about the English rock scene. 300 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 4: So traffic and Cream and Pink Floyd and procol Hareum 301 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 4: got booked into the film Moore and and the thing 302 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 4: was just phenomenally successful. Oh what a wonderful scene. It 303 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 4: was too buzz I swear to god. Uh three bucks. 304 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 4: You walk up these stairs. There's some goofball at the 305 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 4: top of the stairs telling you welcome to the Filmore. 306 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 4: There's a barrel of apples. Free, take one if you 307 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 4: want an apple. 308 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: Uh. 309 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 4: And inside there's this room with lights and sounds. 310 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: They weren't spotlights. 311 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 4: They were colored projections that were from the balcony that 312 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 4: were operated by maybe ten twelve people so they could 313 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 4: like flap plastic and make the lights bounce in time 314 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 4: to the music. And to Chet Helms, who started the 315 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 4: competition of the film or at the Avalon Ballroom, and 316 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 4: was much more of a philosopher king than Bill. 317 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: To Chet, Helms was. 318 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 4: Really important that this was not an Apollonian theatrical presentation. 319 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 4: By Apollonian, he meant a proscenium stage with the gateway 320 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 4: to the gods, where the audience sits and stares through 321 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 4: the proscenium at these magnificent creatures that are acting out. 322 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 4: To Chet, what was much more important was that there 323 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 4: was no proscenium, There was no spotlights, There was no 324 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 4: real distinction between what was going on on stage and 325 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 4: what was going on in the room. The audience and 326 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 4: the performers were all of one piece, And says Chat, 327 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 4: that represented a Diannesian revel, not Apollonian, and so he's 328 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 4: looking at these kind of archetypes. And I tell you, 329 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 4: every one of us that walked into those rooms in 330 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 4: nineteen sixty six felt the specialness of it as soon 331 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 4: as we got there, and it bonded us as audience 332 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 4: members because we were all in this special, secret world 333 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 4: together and we all knew how wonderful it was. So 334 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 4: just immediately the whole thing created community just to walk 335 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 4: in there, and then the bands were all just breaking 336 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 4: down barriers and trying out things, and new stuff was 337 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 4: going on. And if it wasn't San Francisco bands like 338 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 4: the Grateful Dead and Quicksilver Messenger Service, it was groups 339 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 4: from Los Angeles like Buffalo Springfield and the Doors, or 340 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 4: bands from England that were coming through. When traffic showed 341 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 4: up in town for their first US, Gig Owsley met 342 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 4: him at the airport and filled them full of LSD. 343 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 4: Took him back to the Grateful Dead house and at 344 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 4: midnight they were jamming on a flatbed truck outside the 345 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 4: KMPX studios when the radio station staff went on. 346 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: Strike that night. 347 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 4: I mean the San Francisco was on the edge of 348 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 4: the Western world and it was happening. 349 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: This stuff was on fire. 350 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 5: What was your relationship like with Bill Graham? A. 351 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 4: So Bill was under the impression that I worked for him, 352 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 4: but wasn't on his payroll, And it took about ten 353 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 4: years before I could teach him that I did write 354 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: the headlines, because he would read the headline and he 355 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 4: would pick up the phone and start screaming at me. 356 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: He didn't even read the story. But that went on. 357 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: It depended on what he wanted. Did he need some 358 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: help on something. 359 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 4: If he needed some help on something, he was on 360 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 4: the phone like we were old friends. 361 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: If I hadn't given him proper glory in. 362 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 4: The newspaper, then he was pissed at me, and he 363 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 4: would be incredibly rude and just you know, awful. It 364 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 4: was like, you know, a vartious eyes and just terrible. 365 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 4: So I saw right away that this guy was really 366 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 4: all about self service, and what could I do for him. 367 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 4: My first wife said, oh, I get Bill Graham. What's 368 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 4: mine is mine and what's yours as negotiable. And that's 369 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 4: pretty much the way Bill operated. I got stories for 370 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 4: days about how, you know, we came into conflict over stuff, 371 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 4: but you know, it just went away as soon as 372 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 4: he wanted something else. In his autobiography, he talks about 373 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 4: how he put the last Waltz tickets on sale for 374 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 4: twenty five bucks and he couldn't announce any of the 375 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 4: special guests, but his audience trusted him so much they 376 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 4: just bought the tickets anyway. 377 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: So that's not really how I remember. 378 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 4: What I remember is that the band had already had 379 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 4: a concert booked for the Berkeley Community Theater on sale, 380 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 4: and it was stinking up the place. They weren't going 381 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 4: to sell a third of the tickets to this three 382 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 4: thousand seed hall. And that's when they decided, well, you 383 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 4: know what we're gonna do is we're going to retire, 384 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 4: and we're going to do this big deal. And they 385 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 4: put Bill did put the last Wall tickets on sale 386 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 4: twenty five bucks. 387 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: Farewell to the band, that's all it said. 388 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 4: And they didn't budget. Nobody bought twenty five dollars because 389 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 4: to the band at Winterland. So he calls me up 390 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 4: and says he can't tell anybody this, but Bob Dylan, 391 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 4: Eric Clapton, you know, blah blah, blah, blah blah. And 392 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 4: it goes in my column and the tickets sell out 393 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 4: in an hour. 394 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: That part gets forgotten. 395 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 4: And Bill's retelling of it, you know, his retelling is 396 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 4: that his folks trusted him so much they went and 397 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 4: bought those twenty five dollars tickets. 398 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: Not bloody likely. That goes on and on and on, and. 399 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 4: I mean when he died, we weren't speaking, and that 400 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 4: was over some zz top concert that you know, he 401 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 4: blocked from being in the baseball stadium in Oakland. 402 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: You know, Bill, he is a really difficult person unless 403 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: you did what he wanted. 404 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 5: So it's April of nineteen sixty seven a magical time 405 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 5: for sure. What were you and your friend and co conspirators? 406 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 5: What were you talking about then, So that's funny you 407 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 5: mentioned April. In January of nineteen sixty seven, the human 408 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 5: Being happened in Golden Gate Park, sixties eighty one hundred 409 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 5: thousand people showed up and just were hippies for a day. 410 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: And it was a. 411 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 4: Sign that this thing was on, whatever it was, and 412 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 4: the idea that the young world was going to come 413 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 4: to San Francisco as soon as school was out that 414 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 4: year started to develop. That became a part of the discussion. 415 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 4: But here we were living right under the auspice of 416 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 4: this whole thing, and we've all been taking LSD, so 417 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 4: we were part of what was going on, and it was. 418 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: A topic of discussion. 419 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 4: We got together and what's going on was being analyzed, 420 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 4: commented on, observed. It was just happening. And I'm in 421 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 4: an apartment in Oakland. I remember seeing there's like five 422 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 4: or six guys. We're sitting around and we're talking about 423 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 4: what's going on, and somebody says, I hear there's one 424 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 4: hundred thousand people come into San Francisco. This sorry, another 425 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 4: guy says, now, if we can just figure out how 426 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 4: to get a dollar from each one of them, bells 427 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 4: went off in my head. 428 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: Buzz. 429 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 4: It's like wait, wait, wait wait wait, no way, no 430 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 4: wait no, no, that's all wrong. 431 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: That's not what we're about here. 432 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 4: We're evolved consciousness and now we're trying to change the world, 433 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 4: not get a dollar out of everybody. 434 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: It struck such a nerve with me. 435 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 4: I realized that everything that I had thought was possible 436 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 4: was not possible. That all these dreams of utopian bliss 437 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 4: were just foolishness on my part. 438 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: And so I dropped out. 439 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 4: Of high school and left the Bay Area for the summer. 440 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 4: I went and lived in a small town in Indiana 441 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 4: and just hid from what they called the Summer of Love. 442 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 4: And I came back in September having arranged a job 443 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 4: as a copyboy at the Chronicle. And once I got 444 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 4: to the Chronicle and discovered that I could get on 445 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 4: the guest list at the Fillmore, everything was cool. 446 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: I was you know, I was set. 447 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 5: But you also in nineteen sixty eight, the la publicity 448 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 5: scene became your friend as well, in terms of interviews, 449 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 5: which was kind of your next progression. Talk about some 450 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 5: of that access that that gave you for your trips 451 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 5: to LA to meet some of these folks and interview them. 452 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 4: So I ended up getting into college at Riverside was 453 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 4: about an hour east of Los Angeles. 454 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: You see Riverside and going right for. 455 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 4: This school newspaper, and this would be nineteen sixty eight, 456 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 4: and at that point there was so little media paying 457 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 4: attention to this music scene that was just blowing up. 458 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 4: There were a few underground newspapers like the La Free 459 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 4: Press or the Berkeley bar Rolling Stone started in what 460 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 4: November of sixty seven, but it was really pretty. 461 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: Small time for still a couple of years. 462 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 4: And I found that record company publicity offices were very 463 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 4: welcoming to somebody for a college newspaper, and as I 464 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 4: was an hour outside of Los Angeles, it was super 465 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 4: easy to just scoot in there and catch shows at 466 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 4: the Whiskey or conduct interviews, and the accessibility was unbelievable. 467 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 4: I remember doing an article on Little Richard and he 468 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 4: was doing a run at the Whiskey, and he just 469 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 4: had me and our photographer with him at all times. 470 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 4: We sat in his dressing room when Mick Jagger came 471 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 4: in and says, oh, the king of rock and roll. 472 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 4: We were at his hotel room after the gigs up 473 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 4: until three and four in the morning talking to him. 474 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 4: We were meeting him the next day when he's doing 475 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 4: TV shows. 476 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: And I mean I spent like four or five days 477 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: with little Richard. 478 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 4: I mean, what better thing to do than that for 479 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 4: your college education? I had interviews my college newspaper with 480 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: Alvin Lee from ten years after with sly Stone. Really 481 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 4: could I could contact anybody and get their time. And 482 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 4: the guys in the publicity departments, you know, they were 483 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 4: pretty remarkable in those days. There were some fantastic people 484 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 4: like graylen Landon at RCA. 485 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: Victor. 486 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 4: He was the guy that spotted Elvis Presley in Tupelo, 487 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 4: Mississippi and signed him to a publishing deal and had 488 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 4: a job with RCA for the rest of his life 489 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 4: pretty much because of it. 490 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 5: Well at that point on the trip too, Yeah, like 491 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 5: you mentioned sly Stone, who you would later write about. 492 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 5: What was the experience that prompted your further interest in 493 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 5: that gentleman, well sly. 494 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 1: Has always been of interest. 495 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 4: In what nineteen ninety three, ninety four, I was commissioned 496 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 4: to conduct an oral history of Sly and the Fan 497 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 4: the Stone for a series of books. 498 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: There were going to be. 499 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 4: Oral histories sweeping out the dusty corners of rock history, 500 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 4: Black Sabbath, Leonard skinnerd Sam and Dave, the women of Motown, 501 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 4: and Sly and the Family Stone. 502 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: At that point, I'd been almost entirely forgotten, uh. 503 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 4: And I had the opportunity to go around and talk 504 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 4: to these people that were associated with that story at 505 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 4: a point where they really felt ignored and and and 506 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 4: nobody had really come and pumped them dry. So everybody participated, 507 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 4: and everybody was incredibly candid and open. 508 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: And then there was hamp Banks. 509 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 4: And hamp was Sly's brother in law who was a 510 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 4: pimp and kind of a gangster. No not, he was 511 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 4: a gangster. What am I talking about? Kind of uh? 512 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 4: And and nobody had ever asked him about Sly And 513 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 4: I found him and he was super enthusiastic. 514 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: He not only wanted to tell me everything he knew, but. 515 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 4: He wanted to introduce me to all the other gangsters 516 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 4: so they could tell me what they knew. And I 517 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 4: ended up with this extraordinary account of this watershed event 518 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 4: in pop music history. The line the family sown parabola 519 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 4: up and down. Uh, it's almost Dostoevsky in at points 520 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 4: it's so grim and dark, but there you have it. 521 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 4: And and that that was kind of a breakthrough work 522 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 4: in the field because the story had just never really 523 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 4: been told. Uh, it had stopped at the edge of 524 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 4: the band, and nobody had gone in and and researched 525 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 4: it and gotten the backstory with black and and and 526 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 4: James Brown and I mean they beat up the road 527 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 4: crew one night, kidnapped the road Andrew's girlfriend and then 528 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 4: went after the bass player, and he left the band 529 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 4: in the backseat of a car under a blanket and 530 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 4: never went back. 531 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: Wow. 532 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 7: Well, how did you become this writer that I wanted 533 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 7: to touch these stories and dig into them that a 534 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 7: lot of people probably ran away from. 535 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, yeah, I like the noir stories I liked 536 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 4: I like the dark stories. I like the conflict and 537 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 4: and the adversity, the irony that gets developed about that. 538 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 4: And and it's real. The happy endings are are fiction. 539 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 4: We don't have happy endings. And so yeah, I'm drawn 540 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 4: towards the Burn's story with the damaged heart and the 541 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 4: gangsters at the End, or the Rolelling Stones and Altamont 542 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 4: with the Hell's Angels and all that, or the Hollywood 543 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 4: Eden Book, which. 544 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 8: Really gets into the underbelly, the dark underbelly of the 545 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 8: Los Angeles, sunny pop of the sixties, the Beach Boys 546 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 8: and Jan and Dean and Nancy Sinatra and all that. 547 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, those are the things that I like to read. 548 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,479 Speaker 4: Those are the stories that I feel have the kind 549 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 4: of sharp, dramatic contours that I like to work with 550 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 4: as a writer. 551 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 5: Which brings us to the recent passing of Jim Gordon 552 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 5: and something I know you've been working on. 553 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, last tw and a half years, I've been working 554 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 4: on a biography of Jim Gordon. It's something that's been 555 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 4: with me for a long long time, and I finally 556 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 4: was able to clear a place and dive in. It's 557 00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 4: been a very difficult project. It was started when an 558 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 4: editor at a publishing house suggested that I do something 559 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,439 Speaker 4: that mixed rock and roll with crime. I mean, what's 560 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 4: more famous than Jim Gordon killing his mother? But after 561 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 4: you look into it and then then that's how it plays, 562 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 4: It's just awful. It's just you know, this guy killed 563 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 4: his mother, that's all you know. 564 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: About it. I when you look into it, there's a 565 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 1: couple of things going on. First of all, the level 566 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: of Jim Gordon's abilities was just beyond any human parameters. 567 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 4: I mean, he was a supernatural drummer, and all the 568 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 4: other drummers recognize that. 569 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: Those of us that just listen to music, it might be. 570 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 4: A little lost on you, but it's a level of intuition. 571 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 4: It's just so beyond the technique and training and all that. 572 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 4: So you have this brilliant guy who has created whole 573 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 4: vocabularies for rock and roll drum and playing on the 574 00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 4: greatest records. 575 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: Of his life. 576 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 4: Time he's playing on Wichita Lineman by Glenn Campbell. He 577 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 4: starts out with the Everly Brothers, He's on Nancy Sinatra Records, 578 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 4: Sonny and Share Records, Phil Spector Records, He's on Good Vibrations, He's. 579 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: On uh, you know, just holding on. And then of 580 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: course he has. 581 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 4: His whole English period, well, Joe Cocker's Mad Dogs and Englishman, 582 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 4: Uh Delaney and Body and Friends, and then Derek and 583 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 4: the Dominos, which one of the greatest records in one 584 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 4: of the pinnacles of rock history. And then the mental 585 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 4: illness takes over. And that's the thing that's so interesting 586 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 4: to me is a music industry is so tolerant of 587 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 4: drug addicts and alcoholics and sex devians, no problem. But 588 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 4: somebody who's mentally ill can't handle it, can't deal with it. 589 00:37:53,880 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 4: The Jim battled to maintain his beautiful life. He fought 590 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 4: those voices and that illness as hard as he could. 591 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, he was severely ill. It wasn't really curable. 592 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 4: But we're talking about someone who entered fifteen mental hospitals, 593 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 4: not fifteen different ones, but he went into mental. 594 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: Hospitals fifteen times try and help himself. 595 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 4: And I didn't see where too many people reached out 596 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 4: a hand and said, poor Jim, can I help you? 597 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 4: Jackson Brown did, Burton Cummings did, but not really everybody 598 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 4: else just. 599 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: Sort of like, but is Jim Kellner available for the state? 600 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: You know, Jim didn't get any help. 601 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 4: But he was schizophrenic, and there's a whole bunch of 602 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 4: things that go along with being schizophrenic. And we have 603 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 4: to understand about schizophrenia too. Schizophrenia is so common, buzz, 604 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 4: it's one in one hundred in the general population. By comparison, 605 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 4: multiple sclerosis is one in ten thousand. So you know 606 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 4: all those people you see out on the streets that 607 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 4: got nowhere to go and got their backpacks and stuff. 608 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 4: As a lot of those people are schizophrenics and they 609 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 4: don't necessarily have it as severely as Jim did. 610 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: His symptoms were incredibly. 611 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 4: Severe, and they built and built and built, and they 612 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 4: culminated in this horrible, grotesque act where he brutally killed 613 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 4: his mother. He went to jail the next morning and 614 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 4: never set foot outside of jail again. He spent half 615 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 4: his life in jail, thirty nine years. He was thirty 616 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 4: eight when he went in. Already people's attitudes in public 617 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 4: have changed tremendously about Jim right with his death. And 618 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 4: it's fascinating to me because I've been pushing this stone 619 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 4: up the hill and there's been a lot of people 620 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 4: don't want to talk to me, don't want to deal 621 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 4: with it, don't want to have anything to do with it. 622 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 4: And then suddenly he's not a murderer anymore. He's somebody 623 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 4: who suffered from mental illness. That was the take of 624 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 4: the obituaries, and they've never played that way before. 625 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: It had always been he's this murderer who kills his mother. 626 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: Now he's mentally ill guy who played on some of 627 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: the greatest records of his lifetime. 628 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 4: It's an incredible, wrenching, sad story, and the details as 629 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 4: it comes out in the book, they just make you 630 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 4: hurt to read them. So it'll be out next month, 631 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 4: next year, February. Drums and Demons, The tragic Journey of 632 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 4: Jim Gordon, and I'm most anxious to see how people 633 00:40:59,239 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 4: respond to it. 634 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: Maybe it'll change things and open people's. 635 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 5: Eyes at a time, you know, around mental illness that 636 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 5: would be needed. 637 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 4: You know, our society turns a blind eye on mental illness, 638 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 4: especially something as untreatable as Jim's condition, and we just 639 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 4: as a society, we don't know what to do with 640 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 4: these people, and so we throw up our hands and 641 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 4: either warehouse them or the basic treatment is to just 642 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 4: dial them in on drugs until they can stay off 643 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 4: the sidewalks and then push them back out again. 644 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: It's unkind It is not. 645 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 4: A real solution, and it doesn't take into account the 646 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 4: vast prevalence of this condition amongst us. 647 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,439 Speaker 5: You brought up brit Burns your book Here Comes the Night. 648 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,479 Speaker 5: Tell us what's going on with that? I know there's 649 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 5: a big plans for Broadway and beyond. 650 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 4: You know, there's a there's a musical that actually was 651 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 4: off Broadway in twenty fourteen, and it's in the works 652 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 4: to return to Broadway on the on the big stage. 653 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 4: Rob Reiner has completed a script based on this book 654 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 4: and plans to shoot it. 655 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:29,919 Speaker 1: I guess next year. 656 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 4: He wants to do the Spinal Tap Reunion movie first, 657 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,399 Speaker 4: and I. 658 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: Want to see that one. But so, yeah, there's a 659 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: lot going on. I mean that that book, I can't tell. 660 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 4: I worked for years and years and years on that book, 661 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 4: And if I had a nickel for every time somebody 662 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 4: said who's Burt Burns, it would have out done distance 663 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 4: my royalties. But the fact is that the book came out, 664 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 4: people stopped asking who Bert Burns was, And the next 665 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 4: year there's a documentary out about him, and the next 666 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 4: year he is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, 667 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 4: and the next year he's up for the Songwriters. 668 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. 669 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 4: So yeah, we went from whoseburg Burns? To bringing this 670 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 4: guy as close to back to life as can be done. 671 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,479 Speaker 4: And that book, Yeah, I'm real proud of that book. 672 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 4: The music is fantastic, the story is amazing, and I was. 673 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: Able to get in there. You know, Ellie. 674 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 4: Grantwich and Morris Levy and all those people that were 675 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 4: such a big part of the book, they're they're not 676 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 4: with us anymore. 677 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 5: One role in the real day did radio stations play 678 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 5: on not only the culture, but you know, the activity 679 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 5: around breaking artists. 680 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: Oh man. 681 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 4: But as we remember when radio was one of our 682 00:43:54,320 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 4: cultures leading mediums, and the by the time we're involved 683 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 4: in it, it has gravitated towards being the purveyor, the 684 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 4: conveyor of popular music, whether it's you know, the mor stations, 685 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 4: the easy listening, or the top forty stations, or the 686 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,280 Speaker 4: rock and roll stations evolved into they carried that culture. 687 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,479 Speaker 4: And you know, I think back on it and it's 688 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,279 Speaker 4: like a miracle that James Brown and Herman's Hermits were 689 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 4: on the same radio station. 690 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 6: There was no race barrier. It was a good record. 691 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 6: It was on that station. Anybody with a good record 692 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 6: could get on that station. Good record in five bucks, 693 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 6: I guess. 694 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 4: But radio in the late fifties and early sixties was 695 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 4: the clarion call for this whole culture, for all this 696 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 4: musical culture. 697 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: And then as it opened up into the FM band. 698 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 4: Well, that opened up the music in ways that it 699 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 4: hadn't been before and created yet more areas for these 700 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 4: cultural activities to take place. 701 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: Radio was so important. 702 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 4: And I guess, you know, like the record industry itself, 703 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 4: it felt prey to its own marketing methods. You know, 704 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:28,399 Speaker 4: kind of researched this way right out of relevance. I mean, 705 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 4: you'll know better than I do, but my recollection is 706 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 4: that the top forty stations of the late seventies had 707 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 4: a playlist of about sixteen records, and they were banging 708 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 4: like sixteen records. You'd hear the entire playlist in two 709 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 4: and a half hours, only hits, only very narrow cast hits. 710 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 4: It didn't allow for the culture to grow, It didn't 711 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 4: allow for the music to grow, and it certainly, you know, 712 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,359 Speaker 4: put a stranglehold on the radio programming. When the FM 713 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 4: radio programming took over again, that was great for a while. 714 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 4: It promoted all this creativity and there was all these 715 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 4: open playlists. 716 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: I mean, they called it free form radio, underground radio. 717 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 4: But you know, it wasn't long before the great experts 718 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 4: of media broadcasting started applying the marketing methods and did 719 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 4: you have stations with pies. So you have to play 720 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 4: one of these, one of these, and as the only 721 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,720 Speaker 4: one Blue Dot record per hour. 722 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't know. I remember when The 723 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: River came out. 724 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 4: Now, if everybe there was a record that hit the 725 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 4: rock culture on its day of release, the River was one, 726 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 4: I mean double record set every. 727 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: Song, and Killer the Guy was the most anticipated new 728 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:56,240 Speaker 1: release of the moment. 729 00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 4: And I remember the FM radio station in Sam muis Go, 730 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 4: the program director telling me proudly that she was five 731 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:05,400 Speaker 4: cuts deep. 732 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: And that was radical being five cuts deep on a record. 733 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: It's radical, no question. I was sixteen cuts deep. 734 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 5: Well, Joe in closing, so I have a little exercise 735 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,320 Speaker 5: for you. We're going to be holding a make believe 736 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 5: cocktail party at your house tomorrow night. You get to 737 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 5: invite five deceased guests that you'd like to have conversation 738 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 5: with at the cocktail party. 739 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: Who would you invite? Well, this is like that New 740 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 1: York Times book section interview. 741 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 4: They always want the dinner party for the dead authors. 742 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 4: And you know, actually I would invite all friends of 743 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 4: mine that died, so but that's not you know, Hey, 744 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 4: a chance to see Brian Rohan again in a minute. 745 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 1: But who are who are. 746 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 4: The musicians that I would like to gather together and 747 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 4: maybe like you know, hand out a few guitars and stuff, right, 748 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:19,240 Speaker 4: you know, how about Jerry Garcia, Willie Nelson, Bob Marley, 749 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,399 Speaker 4: Alan tucsont got to have a keyboard player, and uh, 750 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 4: you know, maybe Steve Miller because he's my pal and 751 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 4: it's always fun to hang out with Steve. Wow, that'd 752 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 4: be a good jam session. That would be a great party. 753 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 4: I'll be right over and bring and bring a couple 754 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 4: of joints. 755 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:43,240 Speaker 1: I'm there. 756 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 5: We'll bring our We'll bring our pals Dave Logan and 757 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,240 Speaker 5: Bill Pugh as well. 758 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 759 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,239 Speaker 4: Man, Well, Buzz, this is great. I really I hope 760 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 4: it's been as much fun for you as it's been 761 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 4: for me. 762 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 1: It's good to be with you, Buzz. I'm glad to 763 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: make your quavis. Thanks Joel. 764 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,399 Speaker 2: Thanks to Jules Sullivan for the amazing, candid storytelling. If 765 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 2: you like this podcast, kindly share it with a friend. 766 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 2: All episodes have taken a walk produced by Bob Maltesta. 767 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,400 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening on Buzznight.