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Speaker 1: I think sleep has uh certainly come a long way.

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Speaker 1: Particularly is very many luminaries in the field have gone

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Speaker 1: from the basic mechanisms of what's going on in the brain,

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Speaker 1: what circuits and what neurotransmitters are being released and at

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Speaker 1: what times all the way up to well, how is

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Speaker 1: sleep actually affecting us? How does it affect our mood

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Speaker 1: or decisions to what we eat during the day, how

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Speaker 1: does it affect our metabolism. Logan Schneider is a medical

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Speaker 1: doctor and board certified clinician who specializes in the treatment

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Speaker 1: of sleep disorders that includes things like sleep apnea and ourcolepsy, insomnia,

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Speaker 1: restless leg syndrome, sleepwalking, and ram sleep behavior disorder. He's

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Speaker 1: earned awards and honors from the American Academies of Sleep

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Speaker 1: Medicine and Neurology. I sat down with Logan to get

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Speaker 1: a better idea of exactly how sleep research is done

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Speaker 1: and it's real impact on patients who struggle with sleep.

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Speaker 1: The nice part about being a sleep specialist is you

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Speaker 1: get to benefit from a community of all these different

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Speaker 1: types of clinicians that are interested in sleep. I went

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Speaker 1: by path of the neurology residency training, but you can

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Speaker 1: come through internal medicine, pediatrics, family medicine, and athesiology. Then

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Speaker 1: once you've done your primary training in residency, you then

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Speaker 1: typically do a year or maybe two years sleep in

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Speaker 1: research or just sleep clinical sleep fellowship that specializes you

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Speaker 1: by learning everything there is to know really about sleep

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Speaker 1: in that one year, and then go and take your

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Speaker 1: examinations and get certified, and then you start practicing sleep hopefully.

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Speaker 1: I also reached out to Chris Winter. He's a medical

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Speaker 1: doctor with years of experience in the field. He's a

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Speaker 1: neurologist and a sleep specialist who authored two books, The

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Speaker 1: Sleep Solution and The Rested Child. He gave us some

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Speaker 1: additional insight into this field and how it continues to evolve.

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Speaker 1: One of the nice things about the changes in technology

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Speaker 1: is that has taken different shape as time has passed.

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Speaker 1: So the original sleep studies we did. That mean, if

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Speaker 1: you talk to all the people who were sort of

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Speaker 1: the first generation sleep doctors, and we're not that far

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Speaker 1: removed from them, those sleep studies were very primitive. I

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Speaker 1: mean they were sort of experimenting with this. They were

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out where they're ways to capture information

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Speaker 1: about sleep. And that's changed to the point where a

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Speaker 1: lot of the sleep assessments that we do in individuals

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Speaker 1: happens in a person's own bed. We've had an interesting

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Speaker 1: journey so far talking extensively about the science of sleep

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Speaker 1: and showcasing examples of people with very unique sleeping patterns

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Speaker 1: and challenges. Today, we're going right to the source, to

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Speaker 1: the sleep researcher. We'll find out what it's like being

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Speaker 1: at the forefront of one of the newest and most

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Speaker 1: interesting fields and healthcare. Hi, I'm on a hut O'Connor

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Speaker 1: and this is Chasing Sleep and I heart radio production

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Speaker 1: and partnership with Mattress Firm. About a year ago, I

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Speaker 1: decided I was going to visit a Mattress firm in

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Speaker 1: every state of the Union. I'm really interested in the

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Speaker 1: perspective on the ground. Mattress Firm sleep experts. They see

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Speaker 1: it all and you never know what new nuggets of

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Speaker 1: sleep you'll learn about. In fact, that a great conversation

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Speaker 1: with the manager from one of their locations in Texas.

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Speaker 1: My name is Raoul Davila. I'm a senior store manager

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Speaker 1: for Mattress Firm out of Houston, Texas. It's interesting because

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Speaker 1: throughout the years right you you start to see all

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Speaker 1: walks of life and all the different issues that are

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Speaker 1: out there. So actually seeing guests come in with those

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Speaker 1: issues saying that they're not sleeping at night, that they're

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Speaker 1: not getting the recommended amount of hours of sleep, that

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Speaker 1: they're being impacted at their jobs firsthand, hearing those stories

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Speaker 1: from my guests really puts it in perspective. People are

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Speaker 1: not sleeping well, and it all starts with what you're

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Speaker 1: sleeping on. I mean that has a huge advantage on

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Speaker 1: getting the sleep that we all need. So I find

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Speaker 1: it really interesting to talk to the sleep experts about

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Speaker 1: and what do they see, What kinds of problems have

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Speaker 1: they been confronted with. These individuals are using their pretty

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Speaker 1: profound expertise. I mean, they get hundreds of hours of

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Speaker 1: sleep training to do more than just sell a mattress.

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Speaker 1: They're really trying to help people solve sleep problems, whether

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Speaker 1: you're sleeping habits are common or uncommon. We have the

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Speaker 1: curious researchers to thank for blowing this relatively new science

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Speaker 1: completely open. When I sat down with Logan, he was

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Speaker 1: enthusiastic about his work and eager to tell me all

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Speaker 1: about it. So put us in your clinic. I'd love

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Speaker 1: to know what it's like. Yeah, well it's a mostly

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Speaker 1: outpatient clinical practice, which is really nice about sleep medicine,

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Speaker 1: Like there are virtually no sleep emergencies that I can

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Speaker 1: think of and certainly don't get called in. The nice

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Speaker 1: part about sleep is you get to I feel that

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Speaker 1: you get to spend a lot of time talking to

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Speaker 1: people about their history because that's a significant portion of

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Speaker 1: the evaluation of sleep disorders. Right There isn't much of

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Speaker 1: an examination that you can do for sleep other than

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Speaker 1: the actual in lab or home sleep study or some

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Speaker 1: other diarrhy or other measures. So it's really gathering a story,

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Speaker 1: getting to understand people's experiences. And the things that we

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Speaker 1: do on our sleep are really astounding, eating two as

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Speaker 1: a toothpaste or driving cars, all sorts of crazy stuff.

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Speaker 1: So it's really interesting to hear people's experiences with sleep

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Speaker 1: that we never thought possible. We all experienced sleep a

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Speaker 1: lot of it, and so we think we're quite expert

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Speaker 1: at it, but every day I get a surprise. Very

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Speaker 1: interesting to think about how important the story behind each

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Speaker 1: sleeping problem is, which makes sense considering how specific and

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Speaker 1: unique each person sleeping circumstances are. Chris found the same

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Speaker 1: thing to be true in his own practice. Getting the

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Speaker 1: patient's side of the story is one of the most

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Speaker 1: important techniques for finding out what's going on with their sleep.

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Speaker 1: It won't give us the whole picture, of course, but

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Speaker 1: if it just rules things out, it's useful. We do

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Speaker 1: this from a medical standpoint, But Roold told me how

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Speaker 1: sleepexperts it. Mattress firm used the same methods with customers

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Speaker 1: as we do with patients. When I have a guess

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Speaker 1: that comes in and and they're looking for me to

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Speaker 1: solve a problem, I mean, it's it almost comes down

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Speaker 1: to the support or lack thereof. For some reason, they

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Speaker 1: are not happy with the current sleeping situation. So it's

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Speaker 1: my job to really ask those questions to make sure

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Speaker 1: that we're going to find the right mattress. If I'm

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Speaker 1: not asking the right questions, I'm really not solving the

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Speaker 1: right problem. When you go see a doctor, they're asking

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Speaker 1: questions to try to diagnose something. They're not just randomly

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Speaker 1: throwing darts out aboard. They're gonna ask the right questions

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Speaker 1: to make sure that they can make the right recommendation.

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Speaker 1: Is just listening to the guests and and really hearing

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Speaker 1: them out. When you are studying a patients in their sleep,

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Speaker 1: what are you typically looking for? What tools are you using? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are all sorts of tools that we have at

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Speaker 1: our disposal. Some of them are pretty rudimentary. The classic

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Speaker 1: sleep diary where people print out the sheet of paper

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Speaker 1: and fill out their sleep diary. Maybe that can be

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Speaker 1: supplanted by some helpful objective monitoring through various technologies, things

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Speaker 1: like an actograph, which is a watch almost like a

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Speaker 1: standard sports or sleep fitness tracker, where it tracks movement

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Speaker 1: and light. Sometimes that helps us understand patterns over time

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Speaker 1: that can complement a sleep diary. But then the major

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Speaker 1: diagnostic tools we have are those things like a sleep study,

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Speaker 1: and the sleep study in lab requires a specialized technician.

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Speaker 1: Those are the people who were there overnight to help

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Speaker 1: make sure that things going well because there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of wires, a lot of tubes, a lot of

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Speaker 1: things to monitor various body signals, from brainwave activity to

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Speaker 1: eye movements, to muscle activity in the face and muscles

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Speaker 1: of the legs, to looking at heartbeat and oxygenation and

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Speaker 1: pulse and breathing effort. So that we're really gathering a

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Speaker 1: very rich data set to understand all of the different

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Speaker 1: things that could be going on in sleep. These sophisticated

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Speaker 1: ways to measure our bodies and our brains while we

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Speaker 1: sleep clearly require equally sophisticated training, but it seems like

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Speaker 1: there are also multiple ways to dive into this field.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I personally have learned a whole lot about

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Speaker 1: the science of sleep just by doing research as a

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Speaker 1: journalist and by interviewing experts like yourself. Absolutely, they're obviously

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Speaker 1: doctors like Logan and myself who specialized in the medical

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Speaker 1: realm of sleep. But the beautiful thing about this science

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Speaker 1: is there are multiple avenues to approach it from a

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Speaker 1: journalistic approach, as you mentioned in a number of other ways.

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Speaker 1: In my conversation with Role, he told me how he

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Speaker 1: and other instore sleep experts complete over two hundred hours

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Speaker 1: of training. Can you tell us more about your training

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Speaker 1: as a mattress firm sleep expert and what it involves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: absolutely so. When we when we use the term sleep expert,

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Speaker 1: we don't use it lightly at all. There's hundreds of

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Speaker 1: hours of hands on training that we do here in

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Speaker 1: the store, and we talk about the quality of sleep,

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Speaker 1: we talk about the type of mattresses we have, how

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Speaker 1: we can connect it to how a mattress can help

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Speaker 1: increase the quality of sleep. We're the only ones that

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Speaker 1: are really diving in to learn about sleep, and you

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Speaker 1: know how that can benefit you and what can happen

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Speaker 1: if you don't get the right amount of sleep. There's

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Speaker 1: so much out there on sleep that we still don't

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Speaker 1: know about. But if we can pair what's happening with

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Speaker 1: my guests to a certain mattress in a certain and feature,

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Speaker 1: I think that's when we get that aha moment where

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Speaker 1: you know, that's exactly what's happening to me, and this

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Speaker 1: is exactly what I need. We'll be right back after

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Speaker 1: a brief message from our partners at Mattress Firm, and

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Speaker 1: now back to chasing sleep. Dr Logan Schnyder broke down

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Speaker 1: the different types of sleeping disorders. We have a set

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Speaker 1: of about six disorder categorizations that we can then subdivide into.

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Speaker 1: You have a breathing disorder. Is it a breathing disorder

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Speaker 1: because of a blockage like obstructive sleep apnia? Is it

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Speaker 1: central meaning that your brain is not triggered to breathe,

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Speaker 1: Maybe because of a medication you're taking. We have all

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Speaker 1: of these different signals that different chunks of them can

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Speaker 1: tell us different things about your sleep. If we don't

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Speaker 1: need all of that, we're not looking for a more

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Speaker 1: complicated disorder, but something more run of the mill. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: we can form that out to like a home based

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Speaker 1: diagnostic study where we just look for breathing effort problems

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Speaker 1: and oxygen problems where the blood is not getting into

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Speaker 1: oxygen because the breathing is impaired, to something like for

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Speaker 1: just substructive sleep APNA a little bit easier to descend

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Speaker 1: to the home. But if you need a more in

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Speaker 1: depth diagnosis looking for more complicated sleep disorders, than we

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Speaker 1: want all of those signals and we have video to

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Speaker 1: accompany it to make sure we know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Like when people sleepwalk, you can actually see their behaviors

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Speaker 1: and try and differentiate was that actual sleep walking from

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Speaker 1: non dreaming sleep? Was this guy and a dream based

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Speaker 1: sleep disorder. It's important to know what stage of sleep

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Speaker 1: you're in to know what's going on. So there are

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Speaker 1: different types of sleepwalking based on the stage of sleep

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Speaker 1: that they're in exactly, and it could even not be

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Speaker 1: standard run of the mill sleepwalking which is a relatively

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Speaker 1: benign disorder unless it causes problems like somebody driving a

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Speaker 1: car while sleep. But then we are trying to differentiate

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Speaker 1: what's going on in your sleep, right, people come to

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Speaker 1: us and say, hey, I'm doing this weird thing, and

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Speaker 1: we're we don't know. We can't know unless we're actually

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Speaker 1: looking at what your brain is doing, and that's really

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Speaker 1: we're capturing it on a video and also looking at

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Speaker 1: all these bios signals all at once can help us

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Speaker 1: differentiate that. And with insomnia, for example, what are some

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Speaker 1: of the sort of common things that you see causing that?

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Speaker 1: Is it could be a person's you know, their sleep environment,

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Speaker 1: or is it typically stress or anxiety or their job

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Speaker 1: or do you see common sort of themes underlying people's insomnia. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of commonalities in general and sleep

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Speaker 1: and particularly for insomnia. There are various constructs, various groups

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Speaker 1: described to different ways of thinking about this, but one

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Speaker 1: common model is called the three P model, where somebody

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Speaker 1: might be predisposed. It might be your genetics that predisposes

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Speaker 1: you to having sleepwalking similar type of thing here, So

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Speaker 1: that's the predisposition, and then you have a precipitating factor.

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Speaker 1: Often one big precipitating factor for a lot of people

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Speaker 1: actually happen to be the pandemic. Was it the stress

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Speaker 1: of the pandemic? Was it the change in your schedule,

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Speaker 1: even the opportunity to sleep more that actually cause you

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Speaker 1: to develop in insomnia. So then there's that precipitating event

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Speaker 1: that causes the insomnia happen. And then after that, when

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Speaker 1: we see insomnia eventually come to us in the sleep clinic,

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Speaker 1: often because that's an acute and zomnia, something triggered it.

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Speaker 1: You had a bad night. Everybody has a bad night

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Speaker 1: here and there. But when it becomes chronic and lasts

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Speaker 1: for a long period of time, and that's where we

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Speaker 1: have to worry about these factors that perpetuate it. That's

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Speaker 1: the third p Things that people are doing in response

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Speaker 1: to their insomnia that then keep it going on. So

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Speaker 1: some people will stay in bed a lot longer hoping

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Speaker 1: that sleep will come, and unfortunately that inherently induces it insomnia.

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Speaker 1: If you need six hours of sleep and you're in

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Speaker 1: bed for eight hours, we'll guess how much insomnia you

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Speaker 1: have two hours. So people will do different behaviors or

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Speaker 1: even have thought patterns. Right, even the bed alone will

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Speaker 1: make them anxious about going to bed, and so they're terrified,

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Speaker 1: I'll come, man, am I gonna be able to sleep tonight?

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Speaker 1: So it's these thought patterns behaviors that keep it kind

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Speaker 1: of rolling on. It sounds like Pavlovian conditioning. I was

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Speaker 1: just I was gonna say. One of the most common

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Speaker 1: things's referencing Pound Love's Dog is people create this association

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Speaker 1: with bed that is actually both physically activating as well

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Speaker 1: as cognitive emotionally activating, so they actually just even being

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Speaker 1: in bed. Stimulus control is one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we use is to separate the stimulus of the bed

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Speaker 1: from the sense of wakefulness. And if we can effectively

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Speaker 1: do that, people then start to get used to, oh,

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Speaker 1: the bed is for sleep again. So yeah, it's exactly

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Speaker 1: pow Love's Dog. You got it. So you have to

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Speaker 1: retrain their brains to view their their bed as not

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Speaker 1: a place of stress and anxiety and insomnia, but a

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Speaker 1: sanctuary of sleep. A sanctuary of sleep is definitely my

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Speaker 1: new favorite term from my bedroom, and it really highlights

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Speaker 1: just how important being physically and mentally comfortable is to

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Speaker 1: our health. Throughout this series, one of the most fascinating

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Speaker 1: aspects of sleep science that we've looked at is the

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Speaker 1: amount of power that our brains have to perform certain

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Speaker 1: functions completely on their own. And one of the best

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Speaker 1: examples of how overwhelmingly strong our mental capacities can be,

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Speaker 1: even on autopilot is the disorder that many people suffer from,

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Speaker 1: known as sleepwalking. You know, what are some of the

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Speaker 1: common things that you see when people are are sleepwalking

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Speaker 1: and what is the cause of sleepwalking? Generally speaking? Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: we don't know what the underlying cause of sleepwalking is.

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Speaker 1: It just is that some people have a tendency to

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Speaker 1: do it and others don't, which would suggest that maybe

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Speaker 1: there's a underlying genetic predisposition. It might be that their

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Speaker 1: body doesn't do a good job of suppressing motor activity

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Speaker 1: or doesn't do a good job of waking up fully

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Speaker 1: when it starts to do motor activity, for example, Right,

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Speaker 1: So it could be something in that kind of pathway,

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Speaker 1: because to sleep, you have to maintain sleep while you

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Speaker 1: might actually have brain activity that would suggest wake for example.

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Speaker 1: But what can trigger sleepwalking typically are the things that

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Speaker 1: you might see like I had in residency, So excessive

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Speaker 1: amounts of deep, slow wave sleep that can come from

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Speaker 1: chronic sleep deprivation. Sometimes drinking alcohol can be a trigger

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Speaker 1: for it. Another thing that makes it more likely to

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Speaker 1: have a sleepwalking event, for example, is being a kid.

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Speaker 1: They have an awful lot of slow wave sleep, and

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Speaker 1: so probability would be if you have more of the

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Speaker 1: slow wave of sleep and your brain hasn't matured enough

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Speaker 1: to have all of these systems working together to promote

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Speaker 1: stages of sleep or states of sleep, then there's a

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Speaker 1: higher chance that they might actually have an event where

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Speaker 1: they sleep walk. Right, Like, the trigger could be in

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Speaker 1: them a bladder feeling full and they have to go

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom, but it happens to be right in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the deepest part of sleep where they're

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Speaker 1: the most inactive. Well, that triggers them enough to become

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Speaker 1: awake but not conscious. You have to be in the

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Speaker 1: right state. So if you have more of that state,

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Speaker 1: the deep sleep, then you're more likely to have an event.

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Speaker 1: And if you have a trigger in that state, well,

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Speaker 1: then it's more likely that you're going to precipitate an event.

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Speaker 1: About ten percent of people that will have a sleepwalking

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Speaker 1: event about once a year or so. Wow, and does

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Speaker 1: it usually the person themselves who's becomes aware of it,

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Speaker 1: or is it you know, sort of like sleep happening

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Speaker 1: like with myself, where it's a partner or you know,

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Speaker 1: bed mate who brings it to the person's attention. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's about a mix. If somebody has something very

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Speaker 1: clearly out of place or out of order, that might

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Speaker 1: be a good indication. For example, with a sleep eating

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Speaker 1: some people come to their kitchen they're like, who cooked

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Speaker 1: this meal in my house last night? Or they wake

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Speaker 1: up an unusual contents like crumbs are in their bed

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Speaker 1: and they're like, hey, I don't know how these got here.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a good indication to people that something

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Speaker 1: happened at night and it doesn't make sense. They'll check

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Speaker 1: their locks and think that they're going crazy. It's a

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Speaker 1: great build up for a sci fi thriller, right, and

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Speaker 1: then we now get this bed partner who is that

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Speaker 1: somebody who can finally observe our sleep for us again?

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Speaker 1: And that's when typically these things come to people's awareness,

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Speaker 1: is that they have somebody who's like, hey, you did

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Speaker 1: this crazy thing last night, or hey, you punched me

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Speaker 1: in your sleep? Is everything okay? It sounded like you

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Speaker 1: were fighting off like a wolf or something. So it

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Speaker 1: oftentimes most of our sleep disorders are recognized when people

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Speaker 1: are sleeping in context. That's when you know, even if

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Speaker 1: you're sleeping alone, you might catch it on these intermittent cases.

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Speaker 1: But um oftentimes it's things that are reported that are

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Speaker 1: completely out of whack and people think that there's something

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Speaker 1: wrong with them, but they're not likely to report it,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know what's going on. Normally it's a

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Speaker 1: bad partner who's like, hey, that's weird, go check that out.

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Speaker 1: The more we learn about sleep science, the more interesting

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Speaker 1: it becomes. Now, Chris, I'm curious as a medical doctor,

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Speaker 1: what do you look for and what are your goals

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Speaker 1: when it comes to getting good quality sleep. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: love the idea of sleep metrics. I think the best

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Speaker 1: way for people to really assess their sleep is are

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Speaker 1: you still awake listening to this podcast, meaning that do

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Speaker 1: you struggle with excessive sleepiness during the day? So to me,

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Speaker 1: looking at fatigue and sleepiness levels during the day, I

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Speaker 1: think it's probably the best way to determine whether or

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Speaker 1: not somebody's a good sleeper. Somebody says to me, I'm

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Speaker 1: so unsleepy that I can't nap. I've never taken a

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Speaker 1: nap in my life. It's hard to paint them as

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Speaker 1: a bad sleeper. It's kind of like I want a sandwich, Nope,

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Speaker 1: want a strawberry, nope, I want a cookie, nope. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're probably not hungry, so hard to hate that person

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Speaker 1: to somebody who's starving to death. So you know, to me,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really about explaining sleep studies are awesome,

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Speaker 1: but it all starts with communicating with Dr Schneider and

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Speaker 1: sitting down and having questions for him and exploring the

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Speaker 1: things that are concerning you about your sleep and how

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Speaker 1: sleep interconnects to other parts of your health. And you know,

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Speaker 1: sleep studies are often very appropriate, but not always, so

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Speaker 1: I don't think everybody should have a sleep study. I

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Speaker 1: think the secret to good sleep, and my secret is

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Speaker 1: I don't worry about it because I've learned enough about

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Speaker 1: sleep to know that it's impossible not to. That won't

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Speaker 1: be perfect all the time. We will have sleepless nights,

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Speaker 1: but sleepless nights are a normal variant that that's what

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Speaker 1: happens to people. It only becomes insomnia when you're scared

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Speaker 1: of it. So understanding that I'm going to set aside

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Speaker 1: a proper amount of time to sleep. I'm gonna use

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Speaker 1: it tonight or I won't. But that's not something that

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Speaker 1: I can really control. And you know, always tell people

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Speaker 1: the secret to great sleep is feeling is happy and

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Speaker 1: bed awake as you are asleep. So I think that

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Speaker 1: when you release fear from the process of sleep, it's

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Speaker 1: incredibly empowering. So after you've done that, you create a

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Speaker 1: schedule that gives you an ample opportunity to sleep, start

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Speaker 1: your time off every day. At the same time, you've

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Speaker 1: got to exercise, you gotta eat right. Mindfulness is not

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Speaker 1: something the younger sleep doctor Winter would have told you

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Speaker 1: was that important, but the older sleep doctor thinks it's everything.

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Speaker 1: So between sleep studies, communication and sleep metrics, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like you have a lot of different techniques at your disposal,

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Speaker 1: a lot of tools, and the techniques are constantly evolving.

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Speaker 1: The take of sleep study has become very popular versus

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Speaker 1: strictly in lab studies, and the culture of sleep has

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Speaker 1: changed a lot too, And I get a first row

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Speaker 1: seat to that when I talk to sleep experts in

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Speaker 1: my work with Mattress Firm. I think throughout the years

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Speaker 1: the only thing that's really changed is that we are

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Speaker 1: We're now what we used to joke about, we're we're

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Speaker 1: no longer joking about it, right. So we used to

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Speaker 1: joke about and almost brag about how little sleep we

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Speaker 1: need to function right, And now I feel like, instead

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Speaker 1: of joking about that, we're taking it more seriously than

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Speaker 1: than we have in the past. It's it's still there,

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Speaker 1: We're still saying the same thing, but instead of being

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Speaker 1: proud that only got three hours of sleep, now it's

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Speaker 1: I only got three hours of sleep, and it's not

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Speaker 1: like you can make that up. It's it's lost, right.

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Speaker 1: So I think making it more of a focus taking

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Speaker 1: it serious. I think that's the big difference. Besides the

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Speaker 1: tools we talked about, both doctors had interesting ways to

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Speaker 1: bring that extra bit of care to their practices. Logan

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Speaker 1: explained that when doctors undergo sleep studies themselves, it helps

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Speaker 1: them empathize with their patients. Anytime you have a chance

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Speaker 1: to walk in your patient shoes, I think is helpful,

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Speaker 1: and doing a sleep study gives you a real understanding

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Speaker 1: of what we're asking people to go through to to

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Speaker 1: help us understand what's going on to sleep and help

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Speaker 1: them improve their lives, and Chris shared how traveling the

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Speaker 1: country and talking to people like Raoul helps him working

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Speaker 1: with his own patients. I think visiting mattress firms talking

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Speaker 1: to sleep experts helps a lot with what I do.

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Speaker 1: So I see patients every day, and I'm getting a

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Speaker 1: certain group or collection of complaints. Either a patient had

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Speaker 1: a complaint and they came to see me, or they

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Speaker 1: saw a doctor who referred their patient to me. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I get to see the full array

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Speaker 1: of problems that people have. In order for somebody to

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Speaker 1: see me, it has to boil up to a point

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Speaker 1: where somebody has arrived at the decision to go see

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Speaker 1: a doctor. So I feel like you're getting a much

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Speaker 1: more organic swath of complaints and problems when you talk

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Speaker 1: to somebody in a mattress for a meaning that somebody's

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Speaker 1: not satisfied with their sleep, the sleeps a It's an

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Speaker 1: interesting dynamic, and it's it's private. It's a very personal topic.

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Speaker 1: If I'm buying, you know, a new frying pan because

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Speaker 1: my old ones is kind of gross, that's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: a personal communication I'm having with that store. You know,

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Speaker 1: that manager or that clerk or that that sales representative,

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Speaker 1: but when you're talking about sleep, it gets personal very quickly.

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Speaker 1: So I find that the purchase of the bed product

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Speaker 1: is the entry point. So I just find the stories

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Speaker 1: that these sleep experts tell me endlessly fascinating. So wherever

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Speaker 1: I go, always try to stop it. We've learned a

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Speaker 1: lot about sleep from experts and from people with very

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Speaker 1: unique sleeping habits, and as this journey was coming to

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Speaker 1: a close, I wanted to know what Logan and Chris

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Speaker 1: considered to be a major component and finding and keeping

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Speaker 1: good sleep. So the most important thing is keep a

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00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: consistent routine. But as long as you budgeted enough time,

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Speaker 1: your body will take what it needs. And then sometimes

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Speaker 1: that might actually be less than you think. Right if

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Speaker 1: you budget seven hours and your brain is only getting

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Speaker 1: six hours, and then it wakes up and it's good

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Speaker 1: to go, you might be lucky and get an extra

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Speaker 1: half hour if you're finding that that extra hour of

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Speaker 1: opportunities not necessary, And then really set that routine, at

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00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: least in the time before bed. If you can't like

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Speaker 1: structure your entire day, which is very difficult, but at

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Speaker 1: least in that time before bed, Say, what are some

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Speaker 1: things that can help me wind down and always adhere

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Speaker 1: to those Make sure that the things that you enjoy

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Speaker 1: so that you're wanting to do it, add things that

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Speaker 1: help you sleep, and pull away things that don't help

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Speaker 1: you sleep. But make sure that those things that you

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Speaker 1: add are enjoyable. And budget that routine in because that's

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Speaker 1: again just like kids, we all rely upon routines. It's

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00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: what structures our lives and makes our bodies and brains

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Speaker 1: ready for the next step. And so make sure that

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Speaker 1: you started awake time, build backward, and then build a

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Speaker 1: routine that promotes sleep. With all the issues being stud

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Speaker 1: one thing is key. What you sleep on makes a difference.

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Speaker 1: Roll you mentioned having a strong focus on quality sleep.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that's important? I mean, how does

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Speaker 1: that affect performance? I mean, we're we're all working hard,

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Speaker 1: we all have to think, we all have to perform

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Speaker 1: on our toes. Sometimes we have to make very important decisions,

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Speaker 1: sometimes at the drop of a dime, so to be

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Speaker 1: able to maximize that potential right go to work and

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Speaker 1: really perform at that elite level. I think that that's

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Speaker 1: the difference waking up and not getting the quality of

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Speaker 1: sleep and going to work and having to make these

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Speaker 1: decisions when you're not at or at your true potential,

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Speaker 1: that can have devastating consequences, right, especially if if you're

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Speaker 1: in a position where you know you have a big responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Most people think about health when you eat, health when

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Speaker 1: you work out, But if you're not sleeping, right, I

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00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: see it more as a triangle. If you're not sleeping, well,

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Speaker 1: then it's it's It doesn't matter what you're doing in

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Speaker 1: the gym or what you're eating. That's all for this episode.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us this season. If this was your

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Speaker 1: first time tuning in, make sure to check out our

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Speaker 1: earlier adventures, where we looked into the sleeping patterns of

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Speaker 1: a marathon runner, a journalist working around the clock, an

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Speaker 1: e R doctor whose normal work day is someone else's emergency,

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00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: a streamer who spends his nights reaching a global audience

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Speaker 1: of video game enthusiasts, a wildlife documentarian, and we even

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00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: spoke to an astronaut YEA, and someone who lives in

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Speaker 1: the Arctic Circle, where it's days, day or night for

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Speaker 1: months at a time. We want to hear from you.

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00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: Leave a rating or a review for our show on

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00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: your podcast player of choice, and you can find me

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00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: on Twitter at on a Hot O'Connor. We'll be back

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00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: with more episodes of Chasing Sleep in the new year,

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Speaker 1: but until next time, hoping you're living your best while

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Speaker 1: sleeping your best. Chasing Sleep is a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer

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00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: is Molly Sosha. Our EP of Post is James Foster.

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00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Kia Swinton. Our producer is Sierra Kaiser.

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Speaker 1: Our researcher and writer is Eric Lesia. This show is

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Speaker 1: hosted by me on a Hot O'Connor,