1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, A quick note to let you know that 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: our preschool science TV show on PBS Kids called Eleanor 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: Wonders Why just launched its second season. It's a show 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: about curiosity and exploration and learning to use science to 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: find your own answers to questions or Hey. And I 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: created the show a few years ago, and the second 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: season has just premiered. We're so excited to share this 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: new batch of stories and adventures. Check it out on 9 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: PBS Kids. Eleanor Wonders Why. Hey, Kelly, do your kids 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: like to fly? 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, they do, particularly my oldest. They were a little 12 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: bit scared at first, but I was explaining to them 13 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 2: that likes flying on a plane is probably safer than 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: driving in a car, and I eventually convinced them it's 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: safe and now they just enjoy it. 16 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: Hmmm, you convince them it's safe? 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: Huh, Daniel, what does that mean? Flying? Flying is safe? 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: But have you figured out a way to make it unsafe? 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: I mean, current airplane technology is mostly pretty safe, but 20 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: there are some pretty cool ideas out there. 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: Okay, wait, safe and boring as you described to current planes. 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: I feel like that's what you're going for. That's what 23 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: you want with planes. 24 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: I guess so. But I bet your kids want a 25 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: ride at a new experimental crazy plane that involve nuclear power, 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: don't they? 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 2: I bet they won't because they're not going to hear 28 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 2: about it, And I'm about letting you hear my kids. 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor 30 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I want to bring the fun 31 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: into Kelly's kids' lives. 32 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: I'm Kelly water Smith. I'm adjoned at Rice University, and 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: I think flying should be boring and safe. 34 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: But what if we have crazy new ideas for how 35 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: to get big heavy stuff into the air. 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: Dream a little, Kelly. 37 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: That's not why I had kids, That's why other people 38 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: had kids. 39 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: Not sure you understand people in their motivations very well, Daniel. 40 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: That's probably true, And my goal here is not to 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: explain people and their motivations, but the universe. So welcome 42 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: to the podcast Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe production 43 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, in which we do just that. We try 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: to explain everything that's out there in the universe to you, 45 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: the fundamental laws of reality, the nature of space and time, 46 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: and how we can use our understanding of that, to 47 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: bend reality to our will, to make it do cool. 48 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: Stuff might fly tons and tons of metal through the 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: air across the ocean totally safely. 50 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: Yes, safely, cool and safe because cool is safe kids. 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: But we're also interested in pushing the boundaries of what 52 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: can be done. Every time we learn something new about 53 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: the universe, we wonder, how can we use this to 54 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: improve our lives? How can we use this to make 55 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: life more exciting? What new kind of gizmo or what's 56 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: it can this allow us to create that might change 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: the very nature of what it's like to be a 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: living human in this universe. 59 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: I begrudgingly agree. 60 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: And of course, the last century has given us lots 61 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: of new insights into the nature of reality at the 62 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: microscopic level. Zooming in past atoms, we've discovered all sorts 63 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: of new rules for how the universe works, rules that 64 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: are counterintuitive, that disagree with our classical intuition for how 65 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: things operate. This new realm of quantum mechanics has opened 66 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: up lots of crazy new opportunities and dangers for all 67 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: sorts of humanity. Atomic weapons, atomic power, atomic devastation, and 68 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: of course potential for nuclear winter. All sorts of consequences 69 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: for doing. 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: Physics, all kinds of reasons for my kids to not 71 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: listening podcast. Do we talk about Project Plowshare at all? 72 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: I can't remember what is Project Plowshare? Tell me. 73 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: Project Plowshare was a US project to try to use 74 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons for like cool good stuff, like making bays 75 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: by blowing up land so that you can have a 76 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: little area where you can bring ships inside close to 77 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: land at some point. And we had a bunch of 78 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: projects where we set off nuclear weapons for like funzies 79 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: and building stuff that we thought might be nice. But 80 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: of course, you know, being with the US's history, we 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: often did it in ways that were not amenable to 82 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: the desires of the people who lived in that area, 83 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: and eventually we stopped doing this, thankfully. But Russia or 84 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union had a similar program. And if you 85 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 2: look up Lake Chaign, I think that's how you pronounce 86 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 2: it Chigan. I don't know. Anyway. They've got a lake 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: and it's perfectly circular, and that's because it was created 88 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 2: by a nuclear weapon exploding, and then some poor person 89 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: had to swim across it like convince everyone, no, it's safe, 90 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: this is cool. 91 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: Cool, Wow, terraforming with nuclear weapons. That's just terrifying. But 92 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: there was an era after the discovery of atomic power 93 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,119 Speaker 1: when people felt like this could change lots of different 94 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: aspects of our lives. Our nuclear knowledge could wiggle its 95 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: fingers into all sorts of aspects of everyday life. And 96 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: of course we know now that we have nuclear power plants, 97 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: and there are nuclear powered chips and nuclear powered submarines. 98 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: But today we want to explore another question, which is 99 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: why nuclear power hasn't made inroads into the skies. And 100 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: so on today's podcast, we'll be asking the question why 101 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: don't we have nuclear powered airplanes? 102 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: Well? Should we see what the audience thinks. 103 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: This is a fascinating question, and so as usual, we 104 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: went out into our list of volunteers to see what 105 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: people thought about having a nuclear reactor on board an airplane. 106 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: If you'd like to participate in this segment of the podcast, 107 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: please don't be shy. Write to me two questions at 108 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge dot com. We will set you up 109 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: with random physics questions in your inbox every week. Everybody's welcome. 110 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: So before you hear these answers, think to yourself, how 111 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: do you feel about having a nuclear reactor on board 112 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: your airplane. Here's what people had to say. 113 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 3: Well, we are too far from having electric powered planes, 114 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: but if we use water and eating them up with 115 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: nuclear reactor and use it as a propellant, then it 116 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 3: could be. But that would require enormous amount of water 117 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 3: to be stored, so it's not very likely. 118 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: But maybe in the future. 119 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 4: I'd say no, because they're quite heavy, I think, and 120 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 4: I think they need to be called down quite a lot. 121 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 4: So I know in nuclear submarines they use the sea 122 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 4: walls to cool down the reactor, so I don't know 123 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 4: what is heavy. And unless it was a very very 124 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 4: big airplane with nobody on board and nothing on board 125 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 4: other than a nuclear reactor, i'd say no. 126 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 5: Well, I wouldn't fly on it. I mean, a nuclear 127 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 5: reactor is typically just a heat engine, steam engine, or 128 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 5: just creating heat like on the Mars Rovers. So to 129 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 5: have enough energy to continuously power an airplane would need 130 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 5: it to be enormous, and then I don't think you 131 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 5: could put it on the airplane, So probably not. But 132 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 5: since you're asking, maybe. 133 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 6: Let's see, the biggest airplanes can carry about four hundred 134 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 6: or five hundred tons, so I would say, if you 135 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 6: could make one that's light enough, I would say, yes, 136 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 6: they put them in submarines, So yes, I. 137 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: Thought these answers were really good. To be honest, heavy 138 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: wasn't the main concern that I had in mind when 139 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: you sent the title of this episode to me. My 140 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: thought was I wouldn't want to ride that close to 141 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: a nuclear reactor. But then I thought, oh, well they 142 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: do it on submarines, is probably okay. So then after 143 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: deciding that that concern wasn't big one, I thought, well, 144 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: probably I don't want nuclear material flying over my head. 145 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 2: When sometimes airplanes don't come down in the safest ways, 146 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: you wouldn't want them to drop their nuclear material and 147 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: spread it across earth. But this the most common thing 148 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: that the audience said was that this is too heavy 149 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: to work on planes. Were they on the right track. 150 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: That's definitely an issue, and it's actually all entangled because 151 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that submarines can be saved is 152 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: that they have lots of shielding because they don't have 153 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: to worry about weight, and so these questions of safety 154 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: and shielding are all connected. 155 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: Excellent, good job, audience. So my first thought here is 156 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: that planes seem to be doing just fine, But of 157 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: course it would be really nice if planes were using 158 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: cleaner energy sources, and nuclear power is a good energy 159 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: source if you're trying to cut down on greenhouse gases. 160 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: So let's talk about the pros first. They assume that's 161 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: one of the pros. So why else might you want 162 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: nuclear powered aircraft. 163 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: The whole idea for nuclear power aircraft comes out of 164 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: World War II. Of course, that's when nuclear powers invented, 165 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: and maybe the primary motivation was to make airplanes that 166 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: could fly for longer without needing to refuel. And World 167 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: War Two, a lot of our strategic decisions were based 168 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: on needing to refuel. You had these bombers and you 169 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: wanted to drop bombs on enemy territory, and those bombers 170 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: needed gas, and that limited how far they could fly, 171 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: and in many missions the bombers came back with just 172 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: like fumes. It really limited the reach of these bombers, 173 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: And so people were thinking, could we develop airplanes that 174 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: ran on nuclear power that could fly for much much 175 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: longer because nuclear fuel is so much denser. So, for example, 176 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: submarines can operate for a very very long time without refueling. 177 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: Same with nuclear powered aircraft carriers. These things can sometimes 178 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: go decades without refueling, except. 179 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 2: The humans who ride them would need to refuel by 180 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: sleeping at night. But I guess, I guess you could 181 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: have a number of pilots circulate or you know, taking 182 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: turns that you could keep going. But like those bombers, 183 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: aren't the figure something like one in four didn't return 184 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: on each run. Think of the amount of nuclear material 185 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: that would be falling to Earth with these bombers as 186 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 2: they got shot down. But all right, we're probably going 187 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: to talk about that in the con section. I'm guessing so, 188 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 2: but you know me, I always get hung up on 189 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: the cons. Okay, so let's spok about more pros. 190 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: That's definitely an issue. But if your goal is to 191 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: have airplanes that could like fly all over the world 192 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: and drop bombs on any target without needing to refuel, 193 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: or without needing to worry about like tricky aerial refueling 194 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: maneuvers which make new and the refueling plane very vulnerable 195 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: to enemy aircraft, or without needing to like buy territory 196 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: in foreign countries for refueling bases. Did you know, for example, 197 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: the United States tried to buy Greenland from Denmark even 198 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: before Trump offered. They wanted to refueling in Greenland, and 199 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: they offered one hundred million dollars in gold to Denmark 200 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: for Greenland, and Denmark said, no, thanks, We'll keep Greenland. 201 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 2: And we did this so that we could refuel there. 202 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: That was our main purpose. 203 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, Greenland is very strategic location between the US and 204 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. Absolutely. Yeah. 205 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: Did we try Iceland next, maybe for less money? 206 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: And then Island was offended. They're like, what we're not 207 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: as value is Greenland? Are you guys crazy? Yeah? Hence 208 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: the Cold War very chilly. But the idea was basically 209 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: try to get airplanes that could fly longer, right, And 210 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: the concept there, the physics underneath it is that nuclear 211 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: fuel is so much more dense. Like if you think 212 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: about how much energy is stored in uranium versus how 213 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: much energy is stored in like diesel, it's really just 214 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: enormous like diesel, and gas has more energy than coal, 215 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: or more energy than like you know, animal fat or whatever. 216 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: But just by a few factors, uranium has seventy six 217 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: million megadewles of energy per kilo of uranium, whereas gas 218 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: has forty six megadels. So the energy density uranium is 219 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: a million times that of diesel. 220 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's incredible. Okay, so this is an 221 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: amazing power source. Tell us about subs and why it 222 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 2: works so well in submarines. 223 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that works very very well for 224 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: submarines and the newest generation of submarines. They never need 225 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: to refuel like they think. These subs will last for 226 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: like fifty years, and the fuel will also last for 227 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: fifty years. You'd like, just build the sub, you build 228 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: the fuel in, and you never refuel it because it's 229 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: so energy dense. It's amazing. 230 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 2: That's incredible. 231 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: So they have these miniaturized reactors and they're powered by uranium, 232 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: and you know, there's fission that happens there and the 233 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: fission releases heat that heats water, which produces steam, which 234 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: turns a turbine which then directly turns the ship's propeller. 235 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: Often in land based nuclear power. The turbine then spins 236 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: a generator which makes electricity. You put it on the grid, 237 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: but there's no need here to generate electricity. You can 238 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: just directly have that turbine spin the ship's propeller. And 239 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: the cool thing is this is much quieter than a 240 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: diesel engine, and there's no pistons, for example, And so 241 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: if you're trying to run quiet underwater, that having a 242 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: nuclear powered submarine that never needs to come up to 243 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: refuel is quite the advantage from a military point of view. 244 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: That is pretty incredible. Is the US the only country 245 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: that has these? I'm going to guess that the Soviet 246 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: Union also came up with this, and so Russia has 247 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: it too. 248 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely, the Soviets have them, and we've had them for decades. 249 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: They're not the Soviets anymore. 250 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: The Soviets had them. The Russians now have them, of course, 251 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: But this is something which is decades old. It was 252 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty when we had the first submerged circumnavigation of 253 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: the globe, like the first time a submarine went around 254 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: the globe without surfacing. That's just like a decade and 255 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: a half after the whole invention of nuclear power. 256 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 2: Wow, that's incredible. 257 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And a few decades later we had more nuclear 258 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: reactors in ships than there were on land producing electric power. So, 259 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: like the military has really been into this idea for 260 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: a long time because they're like not refueling and they're 261 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: like the quietness of these reactors, and frankly, probably because 262 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: they don't also care as much about the potential disasters 263 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: and the ecological impact. 264 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: And why is that? Is it because the bottom of 265 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: the ocean is sort of desolate and it doesn't even 266 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: if a sub crashes, most of the material stays in 267 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: one spot, so the you know, devastation and the problems 268 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: are sort of limited. Or why do why would you 269 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 2: not care about the ecological Well, I. 270 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: Don't want to speak to the motivations of the military person, 271 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: but you know you're developing weapons anyway that are causing 272 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: huge destruction, right Your goal is destruction, So like gentleness 273 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: about the territory, I mean, I guess it must always 274 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: be second or a third concern. But you're also right that, 275 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: like submarine that crashes underwater, water is a pretty good 276 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: shield from radiation. And so unless that uranium then leaks 277 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: out and like spreads into ocean currents, the actual radiation 278 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: from the crash site is pretty limited to that location 279 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: because water is an excellent shield. 280 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: Okay, that's good, all right, So we use a lot 281 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: of these underwater. I happen to also know that they're 282 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: very helpful in space, So where have they been used 283 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: in space? 284 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: Vivin used underwater, they're also used on the surface. The 285 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: US Navy eleven carriers are all nuclear powered. Some of 286 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: these things have two some of them have eight separate 287 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: reactor units. So, like maritime nuclear power very well established. 288 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: But you're right, we also use nuclear power in space. 289 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: Some of the rovers that we have sent to other 290 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: planets use nuclear power. They don't have nuclear reactors in 291 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: the same way that these subs do in the sense 292 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: that they have controlled fission reactions. Instead, they use another 293 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: kind of nuclear power, where there's uncontrolled decay that essentially 294 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: leads to heating more like a nuclear battery. These used 295 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: plutonium and they worked for like ten to fifteen years, 296 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: providing a gentle source of heat which is then converted 297 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: into the electricity to run some of these rovers like 298 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: Curiosity and Perseverance. So we definitely have nuclear powered craft underwater, 299 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: on the surface and in space. 300 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,359 Speaker 2: Well, we also have little nuclear reactors in some satellites. 301 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: We don't do it so regularly anymore. The US had 302 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: snapped ten A, which we sent up and it did 303 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: okay for a little while. Then it failed and we 304 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: boosted it to a graveyard orbit. So that didn't go 305 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: super well for us, and I think maybe it's leaking 306 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: a little nuclear material woops. And then the Soviets actually 307 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: sent up something like thirty three nuclear powered satellites and 308 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: they use these because they wanted to go kind of 309 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: lower for like surveillance purposes, and they were low enough 310 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: that they were starting to hit like atmosphere particles, so 311 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: solar panels would have slowed them down. So the nuclear 312 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: reactors allowed them to go for a long time without 313 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: the solar panels which would slow them down, and that 314 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: went okay most of the time. They didn't always spread 315 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 2: nuclear material across Canada, so that's good. There's just that 316 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 2: one time. 317 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: You get one freebie, right, I mean, I'm sure Canada 318 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: is cool with that one time. 319 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: There's a lot of Canada, and like a lot of 320 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 2: it's not being used for other stuff. Maybe. 321 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: Wow, you're pretty cavalier about safety when it's not your 322 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: kids involved, Kelly. You know Canadians have kids also, you 323 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: understand how that works. 324 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: I am so sorry Canadians. I was joking and I 325 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: shouldn't have I shouldn't have done it, all right, So 326 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: we've talked about the various places that we find nuclear reactors. 327 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 2: Let's take a break and you know, shield our houses 328 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: against the radioactive material that might come falling down on 329 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: us at some point in the future. And we'll talk 330 00:17:51,760 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: about engine concepts next, and we're back, all right. So 331 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 2: we've talked about the various ways nuclear power has been 332 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: used in things like submarines and satellites and rovers and 333 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: of course nuclear power plants. Let's talk about some engine 334 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: concepts for how you might be able to make this 335 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: stuff work in an airplane. 336 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really fun to think about how you might 337 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: actually power an airplane using a nuclear reactor, because the 338 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: basic concept that works underwater is to have it directly 339 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: spin a propeller. But those propellers can spin fairly slowly 340 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: and still power the ship. But an airplanes, of course, 341 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: we have jet engines, and so people have explored lots 342 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: of different ways to make a nuclear powered aircraft. But 343 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: the leading idea I think is a nuclear jet engine. 344 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 2: Ooh sounds epic. 345 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So to review the way a jet engine works 346 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: in general, is essentially your burning fuel. Jet fuel essentially 347 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: some fossil fuel to heat the air, and that expands 348 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: through a turbine into a propelling nozzle to provide thrust. 349 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: So the goal of the fuel, the reason you need fuel, 350 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: the reason we have jet fuel in airplanes is to 351 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: heat a bunch of air which then expands, and that 352 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: expansion gives you thrust. So the core idea of a 353 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: nuclear power jet engine is just to replace the source 354 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: of heat. And so because fission produces heat, right, it 355 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: produces these energetic particles, people thought, well, let's just use 356 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: fission to directly heat the air instead of having the 357 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: diesel fuel do that job. 358 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 2: And then the air is just whatever air is surrounding 359 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: the airplane in the sky. Or are you like putting 360 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: some gas in there that gets heated. 361 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 5: No. 362 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: That's one of the cool things about a jet airplane 363 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: is that as it's flying through the air, it's pulling 364 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: air in, compressing it, and then expanding it with the heat. 365 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: And that's how the whole jet engine runs. That's why 366 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: jets don't work so well at low speeds because they 367 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: require this influx of air into the compressor oka And so. 368 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: Then would fission be able to heat it up even 369 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: more like better than the other methods, so you could 370 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: go even faster. Or the point is just that it 371 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: can heat for longer because it burns slowly. 372 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea is just that it can heat for 373 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: longer that the fuel is much more dense. And that's 374 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: also an attractive feature of nuclear power jets because you'd 375 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: like to be able to lower your weight in the air. 376 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: Right when the seven forty seven takes off or a 377 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: cross country trip, it's carrying enormous amounts of fuel. Some 378 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: of that fuel is just in order to provide the 379 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: thrust to carry the rest of the fuel. It's like 380 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: the whole rocket equation problem in miniature. And so if 381 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: you could figure out a way to make your fuel less, 382 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: then you can lighten the whole weight of the aircraft 383 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: and then need less fuel. Yeah. 384 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 2: So okay, So at the beginning of the show, the 385 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 2: listeners said that they thought the problem was weight, but 386 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 2: it sounds like you were saying that's not the problem. Actually, 387 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: this could be a less heavy way to fly. 388 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: Weight is definitely an issue, and we're going to talk 389 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: about like the shielding and the reactor itself being quite heavy. 390 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: But in terms of the fuel, there is a wind 391 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: and so we're going to keep track of the weight 392 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: accounting in terms of the fuel volume and weight. Nuclear 393 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: power winds. When it comes to the actual equipment involved, 394 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: you're going to see it's an overall loss, but you know, 395 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: there's something in the wind category there. And so people 396 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: have actually people and so people have actually built these things. 397 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: They have prototypes. You can go to the Idaho National Lab. 398 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: They have a couple of these set up that you 399 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: can actually see. They built them in the fifties and 400 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: they tested them, and there's sort of two different models there. 401 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: One is a direct air cycle, where the air comes 402 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: in from the compressor, goes directly into the nuclear core. 403 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: That air gets heated up by the nuclear power plant 404 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: and then emitted. That's very powerful, but the problem is 405 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: the air that comes out also kind of radioactive. 406 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: That's a problem, and so if. 407 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: You're like flying regularly back and forth across your own 408 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: country and you're spewing radiation and that's you know, bad. 409 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: So they developed a second model, an indirect air cycle, 410 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: where you basically have two different loops. You have the 411 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: air that comes in and then it gets heated by 412 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: something which has been heated by the nuclear reactor. So 413 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: for example, the nuclear actor doesn't directly heat the air. 414 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: It might heat like liquid metal in pipes, or very 415 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: high pressure water, which is then getting radioactive, but it's 416 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: not getting sprayed out the back of the jet engine. Instead, 417 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 1: it's just heating up the air. So you're sort of 418 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: shielding the air from the radioactivity by having this indirect 419 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: loop of liquid metal or high pressure water. 420 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: That sounds more complex but better. 421 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you're not killing your own people. But now 422 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: you have to have this extra machinery and you have 423 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: to hope that your high pressure liquid metal doesn't explode. 424 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: You have to monitor that, so it becomes more complicated, 425 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: which is the downside of it, But the basic idea works, 426 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: like in principle, you can have a nuclear powered jet engine. 427 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 2: Oh, I don't think I would want that flying over 428 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: my home. What are what are some of our other options? 429 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: So instead of having a jet engine, you could also 430 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: have a nuclear powered thermal rocket, so a chemical rocket, 431 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: the thing that like the set Urn and five used 432 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: to get off the surface of the Earth. You have 433 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: some chemical reaction which creates expansion and gives your propellants 434 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: basically momentum out the back. Right, This is the way 435 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: a rocket engine works. Well, you could imagine a nuclear 436 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: powered version of that where the heat comes from the 437 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: nuclear reaction and that flies off some propellants, and that 438 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: those propellants are then pumped through the core to heat 439 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: up something. So it's sort of similar to the jet 440 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: engine concept. You're using the nuclear reactor to heat something 441 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: and then that is expanding and flying out the back, 442 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: but we call this a thermal rocket instead of a 443 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: jet engine because you also don't have this compression cycle. 444 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: Is this what project Orion was all about. 445 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: Project Oryon was actually blowing up nuclear bombs behind it, 446 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: So it's sort of similar. It's sort of similar and 447 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: much more awesome and impossible, but. 448 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: Awesome if you're like not living on the planet where 449 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: they're trying it out, maybe. 450 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, awesome sense Like if you see it, you're like, 451 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Wow. 452 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: So this is a more delicate approach, yeah, exactly. 453 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: The third approach is to think about action generating electrical 454 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: power and then using that electrical power to run like 455 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: an electrical engine. So you sort of separate the two components. 456 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: You have the nuclear planet on board, it's running, it's 457 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: producing steam that's turning a turbine that's running a generator 458 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: that's producing electrical power. Then you're feeding the electrical power 459 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: to like a turboprop engine, So the engine and the 460 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: power generation are separate. 461 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 2: So do you have a sense for out of these 462 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: three methods, which one is like the best. So they 463 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: differ in complexity, they differ in pollution or you know 464 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 2: how bad they are for the environment below, they probably 465 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: differ in how much power they produce for a given 466 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: amount of nuclear material. Is there like a favorite amongst 467 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: people who are excited about these ideas? 468 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: I think the jet engine is definitely the leading idea. 469 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: People like jets. Jets can go really fast, they work 470 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: really well on airplanes. People have actually built prototypes of 471 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: this that it can work. So the jet engine is 472 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: definitely the leading concept. 473 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: All right, So we've talked about the different ways to 474 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: make this work. We've talked about the pros. You know 475 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: why you would want to use nuclear power for an airplane, 476 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 2: But we all know that Kelly's the wet blanket around here. 477 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 2: So I'm excited for us to move on to the cons. 478 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: What are the reasons why this idea that sounds bad 479 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: to me is bad? 480 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: So many reasons. Let's start with the practical ones, and 481 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: that's the issue of weight, right, So reactors can be big, 482 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: and they can becumbersome. This has been mostly solved. People 483 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: have made miniature versions of reactors, like to put on 484 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: a submarine or to put several of them independent reactors 485 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: onto a big aircraft carrier, so you can make the 486 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: reactor fairly miniature. Physicists are really good at figuring that 487 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: kind of stuff out. What's very hard to miniaturize, though, 488 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: is the shielding. Like on a boat, a submarine, or 489 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: an aircraft carrier, you can have lots of layers of steel, 490 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: not a big deal, right, but on an airplane that 491 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: really costs you. And so it's possible to miniaturize the 492 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: reactor itself and reduce the weight there, but the shielding 493 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: is always going to be an issue. You want to 494 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: put a lot of heavy atoms between you and the 495 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: source of radiation, and a lot of heavy atoms are 496 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: always just going to be heavy. 497 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: So you had said that what was it like, gas 498 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 2: was something like fifty mega jeles per kilogram and uranium 499 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: was almost like eighty thousand. So even with that massive 500 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: increase in the amount of power that you get that 501 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: that doesn't do enough to even nearly offset the shielding. 502 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: Is that is that the message here. 503 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You either need a lot of shielding or 504 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: you need to not worry about your crew. And there 505 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: was actually a time where people talked about only having 506 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: crew that were like past child bearing age or had 507 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: a terminal disease. Anyway, people seriously talked about this kind 508 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: of stuff, like the documents from the Cold War are crazy. 509 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: Gonna die anyway, fly on our plane. You always wanted 510 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 2: to be a pilot, right, Crid. 511 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: And basically every step you take to make these things 512 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: more safe makes them impractical because now they're too heavy. 513 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: So not just the shielding but also the cooling systems. Right, 514 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: you want to generate this heat, but you also don't 515 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: want to overheat the rest of the airplane, and you 516 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: want to have devices in place to protect yourself against 517 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: meltdowns and all sorts of other issues, and so all 518 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: these cooling systems and safety systems and all that shielding 519 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: just gets heavy. 520 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: And I think perhaps the biggest dagger in this idea 521 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 2: to me is that if something goes wrong and you crash, 522 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: you spread nuclear material across a large area problems, which 523 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: is a problem. 524 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: Yes, poisoning the earth bad for sure, and it's definitely 525 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: something people think about also when we go into space 526 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: with nuclear power, Like every time we launch a rover 527 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: with a blob of plutonium in it, we worry, like, 528 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: is this going to be the time it blows up 529 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: in the atmosphere and then spreads that plutonium on our planet. 530 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: It's a risk every time they do it, and so 531 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: they worry about it. But those are pretty rare launches. 532 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: Oh you mean is this going to be the second time? 533 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, the next time. 534 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 2: The next time, yes. 535 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: But if you're talking about regularly flying bombers or even 536 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: commercial airplanes around the world with nuclear power, then you're 537 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: constantly taking that risk, and you know, crashes happen and 538 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: they kill people, and you don't want to then compound 539 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: the dangers and the consequences by also poisoning the planet. 540 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 2: Well, especially if these planes are being used as like 541 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 2: weapons of war or surveillance things, and you know other 542 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: countries might specifically be trying to shoot them down. That 543 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: seems bad. Yeah, although maybe a country won't shoot down 544 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: your spyplane if they know that they're going to be 545 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: like contaminating their land with radioactive waste. So, oh, you 546 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: have forgot that in the pro section, Daniel. 547 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: It's like the poison pill. But you know, realistically and 548 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: maybe sadly, if you ask me, like, why aren't their 549 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: nuclear powered airplanes right now? I don't think that's the reason. 550 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: I think the reason we don't have nuclear powered airplanes 551 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: or not because they aren't safe or they would kill 552 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: your crew. I think that people would make those compromises 553 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: if they thought it was good for our military or 554 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: our strategic situation. The reason I think is actually just strategic, 555 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: that nuclear powered bombers are no longer the quiver we 556 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: thought we needed in our arsenal is that. 557 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: Because satellites are so good, we can just buy from there, 558 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: or or yeah, why I. 559 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: Think the reason is that you don't need nuclear bombers. 560 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: You don't really need bombers anymore. I mean, we have ICBMs, 561 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: we can deliver nuclear weapons from the planes of Montana 562 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: without putting any humans in the air, And we have 563 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: nuclear powered submarines which can sneak around the oceans and 564 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: send nuclear weapons to anywhere on Earth very quietly. So 565 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: you don't really need nuclear powered bombers to stay aloft 566 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: for twenty four hours anymore. We can already bomb people 567 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: with impunity. Oh yay, And I think that's probably the 568 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: reason we don't have it. All these other concer earns 569 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: are reasonable, and it makes it impractical and it makes 570 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: it unsafe. But I think because it's not strategically valuable, 571 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: it is probably why we don't actually have them. 572 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: I guess we should all be glad that we have 573 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: ICBMs instead. 574 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: I suppose. But of course, the US spent billions and 575 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: billions of dollars and more than a decade trying to 576 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: build nuclear powered airplanes, and they actually flew airplanes with 577 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: reactors on board. 578 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: Were these jet engine reactors like you were talking about. 579 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: No, we've never actually flown an airplane that was powered 580 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: by the reactor, but they did fly airplanes that had 581 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: reactors on them. 582 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 2: All right, let's take a break and then you can 583 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 2: tell us more about that. Okay, So now we're back. 584 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: So you said that a plane has flown with a 585 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: nuclear reactor on it. Was that plane just transporting the 586 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: reactor from one place to another? Or Yeah? Why would 587 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: you want to carry nuclear material with you on a plane. 588 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: You don't pack nuclear material every time you take a flight, Kelly. 589 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 2: Not yet. But if it was strategically valuable, maybe I. 590 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: Want, Yes, you might exactly. Now, this was like the 591 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: first step in the US's exploratory project to build nuclear 592 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: power aircraft. They thought, well, first let's try to fly 593 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: an airplane with a reactor on board. Study the shielding issues, 594 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: the safety issues. Can we actually get this thing working 595 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: and operating in the environment of an airplane before we 596 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: actually try to connect the reactor to the engines. So 597 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 1: in the fifties they had this project using a modified 598 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: B thirty six bomber with a working nuclear reactor on board. 599 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: So you have your standard jet engines flying this airplane, 600 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: but in the center you have a miniaturized reactor designed 601 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: specifically for flight. 602 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: Wow, okay, and so this comports with your even if 603 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: it's hard, we'd do it if it were strategic. Because 604 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: this was what decade were they trying this in the fifties. 605 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that in the fifties they had 606 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 2: enough shielding. Is is that true? Or were they able 607 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: to do this because they you know, four went shielding 608 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: for this experiment. 609 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: Well both, Actually they put a lot of shielding. So 610 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: this is like an eighteen ton reactor producing one megawatt, 611 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: and they had it in this special version of the 612 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: aircraft where the humans would live in this little pod, 613 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: this like special cockpit that was super shielded. If twelve 614 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: tons of lead and rubber that the humans would get 615 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: in and the rest of the airplane would just be 616 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: like totally irradiated. And this little pod had like windows 617 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: in it that were like twelve inches thick and pockets 618 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: of water to protect them, but still there was a 619 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: lot of radiation even though they were shielded. It was 620 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: well above anything you would consider safe for the pilots. 621 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: Oh yikes. And if you ever need to do any 622 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: work on the body of the plane, any technician who's 623 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: working on it is going to be getting your radiated. 624 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. The whole thing is going to be 625 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: a disaster. And you know, for the project, they only 626 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: recruited pilots above child bearing age because they basically knew 627 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: that they were killing these people. 628 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, you know, us people above child bearing 629 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: age are still valuable. Just throwing that out there. 630 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing how they treated these things, like 631 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: they knew that there were potential disasters, and they actually 632 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: tried to plan for them. Like, so, this thing took 633 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: flight in the fifties. They made forty six flights with 634 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: this bomber, and every time they did, they also flew 635 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: it with a special extra bomber that had specially trained 636 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: paratroopers that if this plane crash, the paratroopers would jump 637 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: out of the airplane, paratroop down to the crash site 638 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: and seal it off. They were like nuclear trained paratroopers 639 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: to help try and contain a disaster. 640 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: Were they all also above child bearing age? 641 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: Yes, and they all wore lead underwear. 642 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: Oh good, good plan, although it's too late, I guess. 643 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: But so when they were flying over the Southwest, were 644 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: they I guess specifically trying to fly over portions of 645 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: the southward but are not populated, like those paratroopers aren't 646 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 2: going to be helpful if it lands in Phoenix. 647 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: You know, I hope so. I don't have any details 648 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: to back that up, but I certainly hope they do. 649 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: But you know, this thing was airborne over the Southwest 650 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: forty six times in the fifties, so they definitely took 651 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: a risk. 652 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: Did it ever crash? 653 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: This one never did crash, but they tried to estimate 654 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: what would happen if it did crash. They created some 655 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: situations where they like put a fuel rod into a 656 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 1: burning jet engine in Idaho. So they did these experiments 657 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: and this is pretty bad. Those experiments ended up like 658 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: releasing quite a bit of caesium one thirty seven into 659 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: the air above Idaho. Yeah, it's pretty bad. And they 660 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: called this test operation Wiener Roast because they used because 661 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: they used a bunch of live cattle at varying distances 662 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 1: to help measure the effects of the radiation. 663 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: Wow, I mean they clearly should have been using doxins 664 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 2: little Wiener dogs. So I was I was soffing because 665 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: that was really a missed opportunity. 666 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: But you have just pissed off a lot of dog 667 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: owners out there, Kelly, I'm sure I have. 668 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 2: That's right. 669 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: So this is like a real government program. 670 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 4: You know. 671 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: They invested a lot of money into this program, billions 672 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: of dollars, decades of research to try to make this 673 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: thing happen. And they got as far as flying airplanes 674 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: around with nuclear reactors on board. 675 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: That's that's pretty far, just to confirm, we've never flown 676 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: anything that was actually powered by the nuclear power source, right, 677 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 2: It's just been sort of carried along like the. 678 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: First exactly, we got as far as airplanes with nuclear 679 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: reactors on board and then on the ground nuclear powered 680 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: jet engines that never flew, but we never put them 681 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: together into an airplane that was powered by a nuclear reactor. 682 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so there's always a Soviet equivalent to these sorts 683 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: of things. So did the Soviet Union have a similar project? 684 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: Of course they did. In the fifties, the Soviet Union 685 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: had a project to fly one of their enormous TU twenties. 686 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: If you haven't seen a picture of one of these things, 687 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: this is like a really incredibly huge bomber with this 688 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: really elegant swept wing design, and they were working on 689 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: a similar project. Details are a little bit sketchy, and 690 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: part of the information is a little confusing because in 691 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: the fifties there was an article in Aviation Week that 692 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: turns out to have been mostly filled with false information, 693 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: claiming that the Soviets were already testing a nuclear airplane 694 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: that was powered by nuclear power. It turned out to 695 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: be misinformation, but you know, it kept the US program 696 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: going for a few more years. But the Soviets ended 697 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 1: up coming to the same conclusion we did, which is 698 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: that there's a huge radiation hazard to the crew, and 699 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: the crash risks were significant, and so they abandoned the 700 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: projects right around the same time we did. 701 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 2: Presumably they also had ICBMs and stuff, and so they 702 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 2: had the same capabilities without the technology just like did 703 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 2: right or were they behind on ICBMs. 704 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: No, that's exactly right, And so in the early sixties 705 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: both programs were abandoned because people realized that nuclear powered 706 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: submarines and ICBMs filled the strategic need in a much 707 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: simpler way than nuclear powered aircraft. 708 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 2: All right, So does that mean that both Russia and 709 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: the US, like no country on Earth right now was 710 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 2: working on this program because we all have better ways 711 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 2: to do this? Is that right? 712 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: Yes? And no no country on Earth that we know 713 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: of is trying to fly an atomic powered aircraft with 714 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: people on it. But the Russians claim to be working 715 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: on and have developed, a nuclear powered cruise missile. A 716 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: cruise missile is basically like an unmanned aircraft. It can fly, 717 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: it can loiter, it can turn. It's not just like 718 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: ballistic You're not just like throwing a bomb. It has 719 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: like engines and it can steer, et cetera. And the 720 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: idea of a nuclear powered cruise missile is still kind 721 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: of attractive because it would have basically unlimited range. This 722 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: thing could take off, fly around the Earth a couple 723 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: of times. You could even like hang out for a while, 724 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: like doing loops, you know, take the long path over 725 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: the North Pole or something. And so Russia claims to 726 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: be working on this thing. It's called the SSC x nine, 727 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: and in October twenty twenty three, Putin claimed that they 728 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 1: tested it successfully, though a lot of people are pretty skeptical. 729 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that guy always tells the truth. So 730 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 2: so slam dunk we got. We've got to believe it. Huh. 731 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 2: Do you really need a cruise missile that can like 732 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: circle the world four times? Why not just like know 733 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 2: where you're going to shoot it off, and shoot it 734 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 2: off from one spot using another fuel source and just 735 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 2: get there right away. 736 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of these Russian modern weapons programs seem 737 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: kind of bombastic and unnecessary. Like he's also talking about 738 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: his supersonic missiles. It's like, you know, do you really 739 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: need supersonic missiles? Are there really an advantage to that? I 740 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: think a lot of this stuff might just be pr 741 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: I think and wants to advertise to the Russians that 742 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,399 Speaker 1: their military is cutting edge, that they have advantages over 743 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: the West, et cetera, et cetera. So analysts that I've 744 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: read suggest that a lot of this is just for 745 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: internal propaganda, not actually military strategy. 746 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: I can believe that, all right, So let's bottom line this. 747 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: Give me the summary the take home points for the 748 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 2: nuclear plane story. 749 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 1: So, a nuclear powered airplane is possible. Physics says you 750 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: can do it. You put a reactor on board. We 751 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: have the techniques, We've proven that you can build a 752 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: nuclear powered jet engine. Problem is the way it becomes 753 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: very impractical. If you want your crew to survive, then 754 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: you've got to shield them from the nuclear reactor, and 755 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: that's going to make your plane very, very heavy. In addition, 756 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: the crash risks are significant. So it's possible, but dangerous 757 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: and kind of impractical at this point, and not really 758 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: necessary anymore because we have other weapons that fill the 759 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: strategic niche that originally motivated the idea of nuclear power aircraft. 760 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: So really the only remaining reason to do it is like, ooh, 761 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: it kind of sounds cool. 762 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 2: Oh, so if I'd got my kids all excited about 763 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 2: flying on one of these nuclear powered airplanes, you're telling 764 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 2: me I'd have to let them down by saying, oh, Daniel, 765 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 2: got you excited about something that isn't really gonna happen. 766 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 2: It's not strategically helpful. Sorry, Kid one and Kid two, 767 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 2: they'd be very disappointed. 768 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so unless you're like a nuclear nerd 769 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: who likes to think about nuclear power powering everything and 770 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: new ways to do stuff, and you want to have 771 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: like a nuclear toaster on your kitchen, there's not really 772 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: a good reason that even considered nuclear power airplanes. 773 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 2: I mean, is this a material science question, like if 774 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 2: we can find a much much much better shield that's light, 775 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 2: then suddenly this all becomes a better idea or does 776 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: such a thing not exist? 777 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: From the physics point of view, Really, shielding is just 778 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: about having enough high z atoms between you and the source. 779 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: So it's hard to imagine how you're going to do 780 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,919 Speaker 1: that without a lot of high zy atoms, which are 781 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,919 Speaker 1: pretty heavy. So unless you come up with a new 782 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: way to do nuclear power which doesn't produce the same 783 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: kind of radiation, like, for example, if you had a 784 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: mini fusion reactor or a fusion reactors don't have the 785 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: same kind of radioactive output, So a fusion powered airplane 786 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: that might be possible but first we have to get 787 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 1: fusion to work like on the ground before we can 788 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: get it to work in the air. 789 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: Well, that's a big ask. We've been saying we're pretty 790 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 2: close for fifty years. 791 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: But exactly. 792 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 2: But there are some pretty cool companies doing some cool work, 793 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 2: So hopefully we get that eventually. 794 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe eventually they'll develop fusion and then they'll 795 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: miniaturize it, and maybe we'll have fusion powered airplanes. Because 796 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: also the fuel for fusion is just hydrogen, and so 797 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 1: it's not as dangerous, So a crashed fusion powered airplane 798 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't be any more dangerous than a crash diesel powered airplane. 799 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 2: Safe is cool. I like it. 800 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: All right. And so while it's fascinating to think about 801 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: how discoveries in physics can change our world, allowing us 802 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: to create devastating weapons and also sources of clean energy, 803 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: they don't always necessarily translate to changes in technology that 804 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,720 Speaker 1: affects our daily life. Sometimes the old ways are better. 805 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 4: Yay. 806 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: Thanks very much for joining us today, everybody, and thank 807 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: you Kelly for taking this trip on a nuclear powered podcast. 808 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's been a blast as always. 809 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: All right, tune in next time. For more science and curiosity, 810 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: come find us on social media, where we answer questions 811 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: and post videos. We're on Twitter, This Org, Instant and 812 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,800 Speaker 1: now TikTok. Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel and 813 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For 814 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 815 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.