WEBVTT - Ep. 119: Walking the Edge 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.280 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.360 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:27.120 can't predict anything, all right, Bracy V. Hill. The second, 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.480 we're gonna role play for a minute. You're you're at 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.519 a party and you're you're up at the punch bowl 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:36.960 and someone comes up and they say, no, what do 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.519 you what do you do for a living? And you 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:46.920 tell him what I say, I'm a history professor, kind 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:51.839 of okay to continue role playing. Then I'll be Then 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:56.320 I'll say I'm I'm your interlockate tour at this party. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.279 I say, well, what like what? And I go, you know, 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:04.319 I did my dissertation on British rational religion in the 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:10.720 late seventeenth century and early eighteenth century, but I teach 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:16.120 American hunting history and particularly how it intersects with religion. 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.080 I'm tracking what most people don't at that point in time. 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.600 So they've gone up there, so my my character has 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.840 now left. They answered the question I could also is 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:33.559 they go hunting? And I say yeah, and they go hunting. Yeah, 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.120 there's a lot to study there. And I started going 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.680 off into my spiel about how that hunting culture, particularly 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:45.080 in America has transformed over centuries, adapted itself to various 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.440 peoples and animals that have been present on the continent. Uh, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.840 and that it continues to change even to today. And 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.960 so what I do is I look at how American 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.600 culture of hunting, really cultures of hunting have changed throughout 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:03.160 the years. And I actually teach classes at my university 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.520 on the history of hunting, in which case, well I 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.160 teach to I teach a senior level of course that 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.400 is nominally called the History of Hunting in North America. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.040 And then I teach you you know that I've got, 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:20.080 you know, this great subtitle that no one ever prints. Uh, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.399 you know, it's it says something about from basically from 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.079 survival to controversy. Uh. And then I teach a freshman 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.880 only version, which is it's a they walk in the door, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.359 it's called a freshman Academic seminar, and they get me 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.919 and I don't even get to pitch the class to them. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:37.880 They they sign up for a doing orientation, so I 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.520 don't know who's selling it, but they walk in and 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:42.920 we do a freshman version of it. So it kind 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.800 of teaches them how to write, etcetera. But they engage 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.480 the idea of that there's a history of this cultural 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:54.040 phenomena in America. They get credit for their American history 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.359 for it. But this is great, right um. And you know, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:57.800 if I get a chance to tell them first aimsod 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.520 you know, yes, we're gonna watch Bambi alright, and we're 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.280 gonna watch a little Ted Nugent because I have to 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.680 our roll some Doug dynasty And that's my in a 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:08.320 way of trying to bring him in something that they 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.520 may have seen before. I said that this is real history. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.000 We're gonna look at primary sources, gonna people's experiences. Uh 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.120 and in particular because of my focus, we're gonna at 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.680 least look at how religion plays into this, from Paleo Indians, 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.799 Native American tribes, the arrival of Puritans, don't forget the 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.760 Spanish already here too, write the French as well, and 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.960 how that plays out as particularly Anglo Americans sweep westward 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:36.480 across the continent and encounter new people's, new animals, economics, 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.480 and how all plays together. Now, I'm not sure that 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.000 actually fulfill that, and of course the semester, but that's 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:45.240 my grand goal. That's the that's the ambitious grand ambitious game. 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:47.680 Would you mind there's a lot I'm already backed up 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:49.960 in my mind, but real quick, can you can you 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.240 tell people? I don't think we've ever talked about this before. 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:54.560 Can you explain a people the difference between the primary 0:03:54.720 --> 0:04:00.560 and secondary resources. That's a great question. Um. So, a 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:05.560 primary source is material and it used to be just texts. 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.360 But historians are not opening their minds to looking at 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.440 things more than this text we talked about like a 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.040 material culture, so we'll look at things. But an artifact 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.000 something that humans have modified, they've created from a particular 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.760 time period, and that's the time period that we're investigating. 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.800 That's a primary source. So a primary source can be 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:31.560 a diary entry from eight and I'm studying eight. A 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:37.360 primary source could be a computer if I were studying 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.880 a particular period where that computer was relevant. Uh So, 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.880 primary sources are in some ways limitless, but not really 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.719 because primary sources have a tency to disappear, right so 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.320 paper hesitency to wrot, mold, disappear. Would if you're studying 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.400 paleon Indian cultures, you don't find their their their homes 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.640 that are constructed of wood. What you find, at best 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.760 is the hollow that was left by the post, right, 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.039 that's filled in with a different type of We perceive 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.680 it as a history that's written in rock exactly because 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.760 everything else is gone. So most of what we find 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.480 in our our our blade technology, right, so your Clovis technology, etcetera, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.520 folds and stuff like that, and that stuff has intensity 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.080 to last. So that's a primary resource. But so is 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:27.080 UH Patagonia, coats, um or textbooks. If I'm studying a 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:31.040 period and those are resources that tell me something about 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:34.480 that culture of that time period, etcetera, that's a primary source. 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.520 So primary sources, uh can be stories that were told 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:42.040 and recorded, whether they were written down or recorded literally 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.599 on various types of technology. So someday this conversation could 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:51.080 be a primary sources primary sources. It's exactly right now, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:56.279 it's so what if loose the Clark journals, primary sources, um, 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:01.880 undaunted courage secondary source? Right, well, secondary secondary source is 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:04.840 uh a Julian. We take about the secondary source as 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.080 a secondary history, secondary source for history. So that what 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:12.160 happens is it's where the historian intentionally or unintentionally analyze 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.440 is material that's in front of them, and so she 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.240 she has these various types of data in front of 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.880 it that are primary sources, and she analyzes them, determines 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.160 their importance, and in most cases weaves them into a narrative. 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.320 Now many times the historian then will not just use 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.920 primary sources, but she'll also use secondary sources. So if 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:35.240 I were writing a history of hunting, which I'm supposed 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.560 to be doing right now front undisclosed University Press, I 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.000 hope to finish it a history of hunting of U 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.680 culture in Texas, then I would look to histories of Texas. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.760 That's a secondary source. But that's useful to me as 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.800 I construct my narrative of hunting cultures in the state 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.080 of Texas and the Regian Texas. But I also would 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.040 turn into primary sources as I write my secondary source. 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:02.720 So the secondary source is this analysis and report, because 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:07.680 this is what historians do. Historians have to communicate. That's 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.360 what we do. We communicate by speaking, we communicate our 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.840 writing um and if we fail in that venture, of course, 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.520 then we failed to as a historian. But the historian 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:22.160 distills places importance on certain data ignores others. It's science 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.360 and art. The art is the idea that I have 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.520 to communicate to you whatever my audience is that I perceive, 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.640 I communicate to you what I think is important about 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.320 this period. And I take many times in all this 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:36.960 various data that doesn't seem to fit together, and I 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.080 make a coherent, I hope story for you to understand 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.480 the past. But of course ignore other stuff too, and 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.040 that's where scientifically I have to be very careful. I'll 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.120 go into archives, I look at paintings, Um, I look 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.400 at guns. Although us last summer I spent time in 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.040 a museum and a fellowship just basically mess around with 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.400 knives and guns, particularly from Texas in the nineties. Entry. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.960 It was fun, it was great. But I've got to 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.320 give meaning to that thing. So we tell the story. Um, 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.080 and that's that secondary source, whether I'm telling you about 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.640 it myself or I'm writing it and presenting it to 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.480 you as an audience. Okay, now can you humor from 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.080 me me from it? Like while I have you here? Yea, 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:24.080 there's there's three trying to think there's a few areas 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.960 that in past episodes we've touched on matters of a 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.200 biblical nature, didn't have the expertise. Okay, so we should 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.319 say that, right. So my expertise is right. This is 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.520 where I like pull out my union card. So I 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:42.599 am a historian, but I have a master's degree in theology, 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.080 and I have a PhD in the religion. So for 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.000 the audience, who's going So why are they asking his 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.800 story and about the Bible. I'm still not the best source, 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.560 but in theory, someone educated me on these things to 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.480 a degree in the past. Alright, this, I'm gonna ask 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.000 you some trust me up questions. I'm gonna ask you 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.400 some low level because this is just cleaning up some 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.080 messes we've made in past episodes. And I want as 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.079 a way to introduce you and just to bring a 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:12.719 thing up because we got a lot of feedback from 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.600 this recently. Okay. We have a friend that we work with, 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.600 Mark Kenyon, and Mark Kenyon has been trying to kill 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.160 the same deer for years, okay, And I was explaining 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.360 to him one day that he was gonna have a 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.120 saul on the way to Damascus moment where he saw 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.199 the light and decided to not shoot this deer. After all, 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.440 I was predicting that this would happen, And I said, 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.240 I can't remember if it's if the dude's name was 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.440 Paul or Saul, and a lot of people wrote in 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:51.840 to say, what, Yes, it's a tricky question. It's the 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:53.920 same guy. Okay, it's the same guy. So if you 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:55.920 look at the So the story takes place in the 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.280 Book of Acts, which it's a history, by the way, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.640 it's a two part history. So the Book of Luke, 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.440 which you may have heard of the Gospel Luke and 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.680 the Book of Acts are one book. It's just in 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.920 two parts. So you can tell because the intro it says, 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.079 dear theophilis in the beginning of Luke, that's a guy's 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.080 name like lover of God. And we don't know if 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.920 that's really a guy or if it's just this, you know, 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.040 this character he is writing out there for the because 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.680 he says, basically, Luke. The writer of Luke says, so 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.040 you know that there's been these other histories written about 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:31.120 our faith, but it's I'm paraphrasing these they this they're 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.160 a mess, he said. So I've done is I've tried 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.120 to put together for you an orderly history. So that's 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.400 his intro at the beginning of Luke, and then you 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.520 get to Acts, and actually chapter one says dear theophilis 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:45.600 part two. All right, now, I'm gonna tell you about 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.520 what happens after Jesus goes. Now, he starts with the 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.920 resurrected Jesus and acts number one. And then of course 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.120 Jesus goes. You know, he's gone. Angels go what are 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.240 you doing here? And he lays out They lay out 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.320 the thesis. They say, basically, why are you still standing here? 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.319 Basically go tell the message from Jerusalem to the ends 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.160 of the earth, and gives a lot of other place 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.960 names in there. And so he lays his thesis out 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:07.880 number one. I'm gonna tell you about Jesus, and we're 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.160 gonna do an orderly fashion. Is the basis your faith, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.480 Luke number Luke, Chapter one, Acts Chapter one. You say, 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.640 but why aren't they next to each other? Don't ask 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:18.839 me about the cannon. Alright, but the canon is a mess. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.320 But anyhow, they separated in the stick all the little 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.440 biographies about Jesus together, and they separated these two books. 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.520 So the second chapter, if you're the second part of 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.520 this history by this writer, which is historically, or i said, 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.920 traditionally called Luke, describes the story of really kind of 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.800 two major characters in the formation of the early Christian Church. 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.400 The first is Peter. So Peter gets like the first 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:43.959 couple of chapters, and then they shifted this guy named Saul, 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:49.400 all right, a great persecutor, great persecutor. He's he's he's 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.600 born in southern Asia minor Turkey, Tarsus. Uh. He comes 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.320 to get educated in Judea. So he's a he's a 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.680 pharisee's he's a bright guy, trained at the best school, 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.280 if you will. All right, So he's a persecutor. The 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.600 early Christians famously overseas, Oh man, you're making me pull 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:06.959 the stuff in the back of it. He oversees the 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.840 martindom of Stephen. Right, Okay, what's my name? Right? There 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.360 you go. It wasn't for him, I wouldn't be named me. 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.600 There you go. Yeah. So in or out Damascus, which 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:23.240 is the capital of Syria, Soul has his experience. The 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:28.440 resurrected Christ somehow speaks to him and calls him Saul, Soul, 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.800 why do you persecute blinds in basically knocks him off 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.600 his ass or blinds him for the rest of his life. 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:35.640 Oh no, no, no, no, no no no, to be 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.800 a miracle. Alright, So so I don't know if he's 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:40.920 on an ass or a horse anyhow, knocks him a right, 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.680 So he's he's blinded, and he goes in and there's 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.280 a fellow who's part of the Christian community who basically 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.160 praise for him, and he's blind for a little bit 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:50.920 and then his side his gang. So there's a miracle. 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:55.920 So he gets this divine this uh, the christophany, what 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.240 if you wanna call it, this vision of the Christ 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.120 are the voice of the Christ, his appearance. And this 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.960 is how Paul later on we'll talk about his names. 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.240 This is how he validates he was an apostle because 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.000 while the other guys that there were twelve, right, they 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.040 were close, one of them apparently got it wrong. Right. 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:17.160 So the eleven that the close associates of Jesus, Uh, 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:19.760 they're the apostles. They're called their commissioned to go out there. 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:21.280 And there's a lot of others who were as well. 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.439 But Paul says, hey, Jesus called me himself, all right. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.200 If you go through the Book of Acts, as the 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.360 writer Luke, let's just call him, is working through his 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.200 thesis of showing how the Christians take the message from 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.199 Jerusalem to Judea to Samarian, to the ends of the earth. 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.080 He picks it up with Paul, who goes by Saul. 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:44.040 But Saul uses the name Saul and Paul back and forth. Actually, 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.200 the end of Acts, he still calls himself Saul. He 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.640 tells the story that Jesus appears to him and calls 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.959 him Soul. It's Luke as he tells his story that 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:58.280 shifts to Paul. In fact, once Paul leaves the area 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:03.720 of Jerusalem, Luke subtly shifts from Seul to Paul. Now 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.960 here's my theory on why Saul is a Hebrew name. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.959 It's the first king of Israel, right the United Kingdom 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:13.840 there of Israel, uh, and that's a good Hebrew name. 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.720 But he was born in Asia Minor, in a Roman city, 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.040 and that's why he has Roman citizenship. Now he comes 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:23.520 to jude all that kind of stuff, but he has 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:28.280 a Roman name. So Paul or Paulus is his Latin name, 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.680 and so he goes by Paul, just like you would 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.440 go by Soul. Just like there are other characters in 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:39.000 the New Testament, like this guy named um Thomas who's 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.360 also known as Didimus the Twin. So there's people who 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.080 have multiple names. So what you see is the shift 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.960 from Saul to Paul in the Book of Acts to 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:54.560 fit the historians thesis. So as he leaves the center 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.960 of Judaism and moves into the gentile, the world of 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.920 the Goyem, the gret a Roman world, he shifts to 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.160 Paul to show how Paul is taking the Gospel to 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.000 the ends of the area. As a long answer, that's good, 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:12.840 I liked it. Can move on to the next part. 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:17.200 My next question, blue laws, Oh, just real quick to 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.080 touch on this with your expertise. A guy was pointing 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:29.360 out that we had something terribly wrong. He says, one, okay, 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.080 all right, let me let me get this right here, 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.080 he says. Here in North Carolina, as Janice might be 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.400 able to tell you, we have recently modified the laws 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.840 for Sunday hunting to be much less restrictive. And to 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.760 the listener, there are states in the American South and 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.320 elsewhere you're not allowed to go hunting on a Sunday, 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.000 although there are still certain prohibitions, especially to your normal 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:55.920 Sunday morning church service hours. One minor correction to Steve's 0:15:55.960 --> 0:16:00.320 point about the Sabbath is that Sunday isn't really considered 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.520 to be the Sabbath. I was saying the Sabbath right 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:06.960 for Sunday. Sabbath is just the Hebrew word for seventh 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.600 and corresponds to the Christian account when God arrested on 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:16.000 the seventh day. It is always Sunday. Christians worship corporately, 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:22.400 corporately on Sunday and remembrance of Jesus resurrection. Now there 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.840 are plenty of Christians that confuse the two, but nowhere 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.680 does the Bible talk about Sabbath laws, rest from work, 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.640 short distance of travel, et cetera. Applying to Christians on Sunday, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.360 this guy says, I don't see it why it should 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.240 be mandated as free from all activity. I don't hunt 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.080 on Sunday because that's because I'm at church. Does resonate 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.240 with you at all? All right, So a little bit 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:48.920 of a number of things going on here, all right. 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.360 First off, there are number of states that do have 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.440 blue laws. Uh. My best friend, his name's Josh. He 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.800 grew up in Pennsylvania, a little place called Enan Valley, Uh, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.560 and opening a deer season it was like a holiday, 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.720 like a holy day. But from what I gathered from 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.119 the stories he's told, me it was a Monday, because 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.760 in Pennsylvania you can't hunt deer on Sunday. So there 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.560 are number of states. Yes, okay, so it which is 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.840 interesting because this whole William Penn's experiment. If you're from me, 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.520 he was a Quaker, right, and so Pennsylvania was supposed 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.480 to be a place where freedom of religion took place 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.119 in a unique and in brand new way. You know 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.800 what William Penn wants describing that state, talked about how 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:32.399 grouse would walk into his house. He had observations about wildlife, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.640 so that Benjamin Franklin, we should talk about him. He's 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:39.360 got some weird views snakes anyway. Uh. Blue laws then 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.160 ironically show up in places, and I believe Rhode Island 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.760 which is as well, which is also established on religious freedom. 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.679 I could be wrong with Rhode Island, so we're right 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:49.840 in and tell me all right, But the point is, 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.280 ironically that as we see the establishment and sometimes in 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:55.960 places you would expect to see religious freedom and not 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:01.120 expect to see religious ideas pervaded secular life. For lack 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:02.840 of a better way of saying it, that's where you 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.000 find it. So there are number states that don't allow 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:10.639 hunting on Sunday. Why well, there was generally this assumption 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.840 for hundreds of years among Christians that the Sabbath was Sunday. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:19.840 But the Sabbath isn't Sunday. The Sabbath is actually Friday night. 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.639 Is when it starts sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. You 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.400 got it right, And that's why that's like when like 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.320 like Jews, Yeah, absolutely, you go to synagogue with Orthodox jewesday. 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.640 That's when they do their honor the Sabbath from sundown 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:36.000 Friday sundowns not just Orthodox but Reformed Jews as well. 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:39.600 It's not infrequent we go to synagogue. Uh, the number 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:41.680 of synagogues actually even in the town where I live, 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:43.920 but where I've grown up, and it starts on Friday nights. 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:49.280 It's your Schobat service. So that was the day of rest. 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.399 And where does this come from? There's a couple of 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.440 different hints about it in in in particularly the Penitute 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.439 the first five books of the Hebrew Bible or the 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.200 Old Testament if you want to use that if you're 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.200 Christian first active. But the probably the most interesting one 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:06.359 is of course the first chapter Genesis one, which lays 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.400 out this creation story and it rolls into early part 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.439 of Genesis too. Um, And do you have these these 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:18.880 days in which God creates through various means, uh, the world. 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.960 That is that he separates water from land, and he 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.679 puts vegetation, and and then he creates uh, you know, 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.119 he has light and darkness in it as the stellar formations, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.200 and then he has the birds and the four legged critters, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.960 and eventually on the sixth day he creates humans right 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.679 along with other things, but humans and all these creations 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.360 are basically good, but the ones with human it's it's 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:43.679 very good. And then it says on the seventh day 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:45.760 he rests now again, I'm gonna pull us in back 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:47.440 of me. But I believe it's in the book of Exodus. 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.480 You have a retelling of this, and it's etological, which 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.239 is a fancy way of saying it's a story that 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.119 has an explanation for why we do what we do. 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.040 And there it's explicit because God sit on the seventh day, 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:05.040 so we rest as well. Um. And there's two different 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.199 ideologies going on there and the two books. But so 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.240 it's established in in the in the Hebrew culture that 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.240 you rested on the seventh day. It was a way 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:18.080 of essentially, Um, I hate to say it, but mimicking God, 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.080 but in a in a positive fashion. Um. And so 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.160 on the seventh Day you rested, and there were certain 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.560 behaviors you didn't do in the rabbis. Jewish rabbis years 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.159 afterwards continued to comment on this. There's certain things you 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.080 shouldn't be doing right, probably hunting, working, Um, off top 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.240 of my head, cutting wood. You have sacks, by the way, 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.959 on on the Sabbath. That's not work, that's that's okay. Uh, 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.080 that's what I remember hearing in class. That caught my attention. 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:48.479 I remember that in class. But so certain the fishing, fishing, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.760 fishing is okay. I don't know. I don't know what. 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.120 To be honest, I don't remember. No state has outlawed 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.639 Sunday fishing or Cinday sacks, I guess. But the point 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:02.840 is you do have this intriguing extension then of and 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.119 the Christian you say, why Christmas on Sunday? Here's the shift. 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.360 They go back to the Book of Acts. Uh. These 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.840 were Jews that came to believe them that this Jesus 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.119 was the Messiah, the awaited One. Um. And they continue 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.040 to do Jewish things. They still went to the Temple. 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:16.840 It was there hadn't been destroyed by the Romans in 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.840 the year seventy by the guy named Titus, So it's 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:24.080 still there. Um and uh. They continue to do but 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:25.919 they have to figure out who they are though, right. 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.280 So there Jews, but they believe that the Messiah has come. Uh. 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.560 They seemingly still are doing sacrifices in the Temple. They're 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.520 still gathering. But you see in there early in the 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.879 Book of Acts, increasing tension then between these Jews or 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.520 followers of Jesus and Jews that didn't buy into the 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.000 he was of Messiah, until eventually they kicked out of 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.840 the out of the synagogues where they would gather, and 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.879 they're essentially pushed out of the Temple region. And so 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:57.200 they pick a new day to worship on Sunday. That's 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.000 how that all came about. Yeah, and Christians have turned 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.560 to the Sabbath Sunday not too as again as Christianity 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.080 Christian Yeah, yeah, right now, so you have Seventh Day 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.560 ad ventice for instance, if you're driving them, they follow 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:11.760 more of a Herbraic code. It's I am a little 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.520 picky choosing right there. Certain things there, for instance, most Sunday, 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.879 i'd ben as I know, or vegetarian, right, um, And 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.320 they have very strict diets, and so they keep many 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.080 of the date of the Seventh Day had been this 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.080 one time for a few days. I was gonna say, 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.359 how did it go? Well, she didn't date Friday night 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:29.359 to Saturday night. Yeah, and as a meat eater, I 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.600 can't remember. Yeah, right, okay, so it's gonna be a problem. Possibly, so, 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:34.800 but seven Day. Even so, there's groups of what you 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:39.720 might consider radical Christianity. She was vegetarian, you're right, but 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:41.800 it really date. It was like I was. I was, 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:47.760 I was interested in trying to date her. Yeah, all right, 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:49.840 so that's where you began to see and you still 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:52.320 see written that said that particuarly in the nineteenth century 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.399 where you see kind of utopian movements and more radical 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:58.159 types of Christianity, and even in America go back and 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.600 back to the old ways exactly. But whoever it was 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:05.040 that said, hey man, we're gonna do some semblance of well, 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:09.040 I'm gonna like exclude by law the most egregious things 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:15.280 heavy drinking, hunting. Well, most people were Sunday people who 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.000 were Sunday people, which I mean again, there's a lot 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.160 of states you can't buy hard liquor on Sundays. It's 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.120 the same principle. And then we call those blue laws 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.880 as well. Yeah, but there's like I guess it's around 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.399 a dozen or so states that still have blue laws 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:34.520 for hunting. Okay, can you now tell me give me 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:36.800 the quick wrap on your your your book? All right? 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:39.400 All right? Is it? Can I still called a Newish book? Yeah? 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:42.359 It came out in November of two. Yeah, I can 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:46.199 see that friendly all right, so real quick? Um, the 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:50.320 books called God Nemerod in the World exploring Christian perspectives 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:54.440 on sport hunting. It's published by Mercer University Press, which 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:59.800 has a Sports and Religion series. Yeah, Sports and religious 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:04.280 and sports and religion like what Yeah, okay, so it's 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:06.280 a competitive verb. It pulls it two together. So it's 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:09.879 sports and religion together. Yeah, alright, printed, I don't have 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:15.760 to yeah. Um, And so they've got books on baseball football. Yeah, 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.440 well there's nothing to write. I don't know. I didn't 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:20.320 read the book. Yeah, but as you as we learned 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:22.520 in this book, there's all kinds of ways that hunting 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:24.560 plays into the Bible. Is not a lot of baseball 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:27.240 plays into the Bible. It's ridiculous idea. I didn't write 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:29.639 that book. I did write this. If you have you 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:32.439 step out the long as show it is what is 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:34.560 there to be said? Yeah, I don't know. I didn't 0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:38.760 read the book. I didn't realize. I knew that there 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:40.440 was a lot of hunting in the Bible, yeah, I 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:42.399 didn't realize how much. And so I started looking at 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.200 this book. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's a lot going 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:47.600 on there. Um, so real quick. The story of the 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:51.120 book was I was writing a dissertation and my dissertation 0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:55.639 was looking at radical groups in England and Britain. I 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:57.520 started out with a law large, which is a group 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:00.439 in the fourteenth century in England. I ended up losing 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.200 my director from a distant religious group, radical religious. I 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:07.160 like radical minority religious groups, all right, I just do um. 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:09.680 And so then I ended up for various reasons, things 0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:12.120 got shifted around. Ended up working with a fellow from 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:14.680 the University of Storily in Scotland. He was visiting in 0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:18.639 the United States as a distinguished scholar um and we 0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:21.520 we we found a topic that I could study with 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:24.400 him that fit within his purview. So I started studying 0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:27.239 late seventeent century early eighteenth century radical religion we call 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:30.720 rational religion. It's as a proto Unitarian. People who grew 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:33.879 up within the Orthodox Christian movement actually were defending it 0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:36.760 against the Anglicans in Britain, and then suddenly came to 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:40.760 the conclusion that in particularly things like the Trinity were problematic. 0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:44.080 One plus one plus one did not equal one. And 0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:46.720 so they were applying reason in the British Enlightenment to 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:49.760 the religion of their tradition. As you can well imagine, 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:53.160 they were soon ostracized by everyone. And so I particularly 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:54.720 worked on a guy by the name of James Pierce. 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:58.240 So I'm working with people on the edge um in 0:25:58.320 --> 0:26:00.320 two thousand and seven. Of course, I'm always for a 0:26:00.320 --> 0:26:03.719 diversion because I'm a procrastinator. Suddenly I'm walking with this 0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:05.840 guy across campus and me he's so cool. He's got 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:07.879 the voice of God right with this British accident with 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:11.560 the Cambridge. His name is David Bebington, and uh, David 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:15.720 Bevington's is just fantastic. Uh. And we're walking across campus 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:18.840 and I mentioned he mentioned he don't go to this 0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:21.000 guy's house for dinner. I said, I know him. Actually, 0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:23.480 my wife and I've been hunting white wing doves there 0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:26.639 and he stops, just stops in the middle campus on 0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:28.520 the sidewalk, and it looks at me and it's like 0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:30.439 he doesn't know what to say. He just we just 0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:33.080 had Thai food. He just invited me to do his distion, 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:35.000 my dissertation with him, and he looks at me, goes, 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:39.960 that's that's so French, French, French, he's British, and he's like, 0:26:40.000 --> 0:26:44.120 what doesn't America. Yeah, so and and we just kept 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:47.400 walking along and I started thinking, all right here I am. 0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:50.520 I'm committed to doing Christian history within two degree with 0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:53.159 things on the edges, but also within Christian community on 0:26:53.200 --> 0:26:57.119 the edges. I thought hunting was okay. I mean, I 0:26:57.160 --> 0:26:59.600 knew there a lot of people didn't hunt, but I 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:02.280 guess this is a big question. And so I started 0:27:02.320 --> 0:27:04.600 bouncing it around, came up the topic, found a guy 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:07.040 to kind of work with me who's does sports, uh 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:11.040 and leisure studies. We proposed I proposed it in particular 0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:13.439 to a number of presses, and their responses was sexy, 0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:16.440 but that ain't gonna sell, and so it didn't go anywhere. 0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:19.399 I finished my dissertation. I didn't want to work on 0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:22.240 my dissertation anymore. I still owe it seven years later 0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:25.920 to the publisher. But I started looking for a diversion. 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:29.240 And I was in San Francisco and I had this 0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:32.000 idea of you know, about hunting. It's been bouncing back 0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:33.800 in my head to look at it from all kinds 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:39.440 of different perspectives, from history, uh, from religious, theological, ethical perspectives, 0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:41.639 and clearly I couldn't do them all. So I needed 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:44.480 other voices. I wanted other people to participate in this, 0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:49.000 but no one's really doing this um and the idea 0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:53.240 was it was? It was? It was nascent, shall we say. 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:56.000 But I went to the session with this series editor 0:27:56.040 --> 0:27:57.840 of the Sports and Religion series, and Mercer was there 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:00.000 already talking. Went up after him. I said, I had 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.280 got this idea for this book. You listened to me. 0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:04.800 He said, send me an email. I send him an email. 0:28:04.840 --> 0:28:07.960 He said, see me a proposal, and he said I'll 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:11.639 take it. So I started creating this book. And that 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:15.280 is I wanted to write some some some essays myself. 0:28:15.720 --> 0:28:17.199 And there were people that I talked to of the 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:19.480 last several years that were interested in writing about the 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:22.240 ethics of hunting, the history of hunting, about why it 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:23.840 was good while it was bad, how to do it 0:28:23.880 --> 0:28:27.440 better than other ways, but with a particular attention to religion, 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:29.600 not just to ethics. Be there's a lot of discussion 0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:32.800 of ethics out there, but with a particular attention to 0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:35.919 history of the religion and the current situation of religion, 0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:39.480 particularly Christianity. And I began assembling these this group of 0:28:39.520 --> 0:28:42.520 more than two dozen people. UM. I eventually brought out 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:44.360 a co editor to talk a little bit about sports, 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:47.640 and he wasn't four hunting, if you will, and he 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:51.960 brought in his friend Sean Graves UH to to do 0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:54.880 a kind of anti hunting piece. The main central anti 0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:58.239 like a religious based anti hunting and philosophy. It's it's 0:28:58.240 --> 0:28:59.760 a composite. So if you look at the book, it's 0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:04.520 into parts. The first eleven chapters are descriptive, they're historically descriptive. 0:29:04.560 --> 0:29:10.040 They talk about hunting communities today UH closely associated with religion. UM. 0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:13.680 They go all the way back to the Hebraic tradition 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:17.360 as an essay front by a guy named Uh Basque 0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:20.280 can at bass hunting buddy of mine UH and also 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:23.040 a scripture scholar, and we work away through the Middle Ages, 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:25.600 we work our way to the early modern period, and 0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:27.680 then we work away to the President. And in that 0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:31.840 section with doing oral history, so recording primary sources from 0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:35.360 people who hunted to the last century, analyzing it, making report, 0:29:35.440 --> 0:29:39.320 and then allowing hunters from all types of walks of life. 0:29:39.960 --> 0:29:47.240 UM athletes in particual because of sports and religion, UH, musicians, artists, UH, teachers, academics, 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.480 soldiers all kind of talk about their story, but just 0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:53.640 tell a story, have them right their essay if possible. 0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:56.040 There's a few celebrity hunters that you would see on 0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:59.800 things like the Outdoor Channel. UH, like Ralph since lur 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:04.040 always been to pronounce his name from Archer's choice. Jason 0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:09.040 Robertson did an essay with him from the dynasty UM 0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:12.200 and to letting them speak. And then the last half 0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:13.800 is from the Ivory Tower. So if you will, the 0:30:13.840 --> 0:30:15.880 first half is about the field and the people who 0:30:15.880 --> 0:30:18.160 are in it, and the last half is people who 0:30:18.240 --> 0:30:20.400 live in the I retire academics who want to tell 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:22.400 you the hunting is right wrong or this is a 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:24.680 better way to do it. And then there's a conclusion. 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:29.200 So the book is a composite of perspectives. Um And 0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:34.920 one would argue from about years of experience. What first 0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:38.800 got me interested in the idea um that there was 0:30:38.840 --> 0:30:43.680 something to think about here is I was reading years, 0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:50.600 many years ago in Barry Lopez's Arctic Dreams, and in 0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:57.200 the epilogue to the book, he's hunting walrus with Alaska natives, 0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:02.880 though he's actually in Russian Wars, and they're slaughtering walrus 0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:08.840 on the ice and the smell of blood and gunpowder 0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:12.880 are still lingering in the air. And Lopez doesn't get 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:17.560 into it, but he alludes to the reconciliation or the 0:31:17.640 --> 0:31:23.560 need to reconcile Jacob and Esau, or this reconciliation that occurs. 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:28.160 I remember thinking, like, what's that. So I go and 0:31:28.240 --> 0:31:31.480 look at the story of Jacob and Esau, which I interpreted. 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:34.440 I've been told by people that it's not I interpreted 0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:41.160 it to be a story about hunters and non hunters. 0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:46.720 I'm gonna tell you, like my understanding of um and 0:31:46.880 --> 0:31:48.360 and I want to get it. I want to touch 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:51.080 on Nimrod to who I wasn't even aware of. Okay, 0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:55.040 but Jacob and Esaw, here's this mother. She's pregnant with twins, 0:31:55.720 --> 0:32:01.640 and the first baby passes out, and it's Harry, covered 0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:05.360 in hair and clinging to his ankle is a fair baby. 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:08.840 The hair covered baby that comes out first is Saw. 0:32:09.600 --> 0:32:14.320 And the fair, non hairy baby that comes out clinging 0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:18.400 to his ankle is Jacob. He Saw becomes a hunter. 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:21.840 He's a savage, and he hunts with his bow, and 0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:26.560 he Saw the hairless one, it's an agrarian. Oh sorry, Jacob. 0:32:26.840 --> 0:32:31.640 The hairless one becomes a farmer. Their father likes wild 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:36.320 game and often sends Saw with his bow to go 0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:40.280 scrounge him up some wild game, and he Saw, being 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:46.200 the eldest, is entitled to the birthright. The old man 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:50.760 grows old and blind and sends Saw off with his 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:55.040 bow to kill him some wild meat. Jacob goes and 0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:59.000 kills one of his lambs, drapes it over his shoulder, 0:33:00.360 --> 0:33:03.960 cook some lamb for the old man. The old man 0:33:04.080 --> 0:33:08.720 eats it, likes it, touches, feels the fur, thinks it's Saw, 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:13.960 and bestows upon him his birthright. I took it to 0:33:14.040 --> 0:33:17.920 mean that this was the moment when God gave favor 0:33:18.000 --> 0:33:24.920 to the agricultural people's and shunned the hunters through trickery, 0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:29.480 and it's telling because Jacob is second born. But this 0:33:29.560 --> 0:33:32.960 is clinging to the ankle of the hunter. So I 0:33:32.960 --> 0:33:34.920 couldn't see it any other way. That it was sort 0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:40.960 of a way of pointing out that the the Christians 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:45.200 were a grarians, they were pastorists, they weren't wild savages, 0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:47.440 they weren't out hunting. And here's a story to sort 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:53.560 of account for how God's favoritism was granted to the 0:33:53.600 --> 0:33:56.600 agricultural peoples and not to the wild savages. But I've 0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:58.120 been told that that's not how that's not how you 0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:00.120 should look at it. The great thing about it as 0:34:00.760 --> 0:34:04.040 is up for interpretation, right. So so the story you're 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:08.000 looking at is in Genesis chapter twenty five. Uh. And 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:11.640 so Jacob and he saw born and he saw is 0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:14.719 described then as being uh he comes out red and 0:34:14.760 --> 0:34:17.560 he's hairy, right, and it says he's harry like a 0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:20.239 garment like like a I don't know, mo hair suit, 0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:23.160 I don't know, right, And and and then there's Jacob 0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:30.600 um our body dirt looks like this. Yeah, So did 0:34:30.640 --> 0:34:32.960 you got two stories? One of course is that has 0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:35.719 been out hunting and it comes in he's famished, and 0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:37.960 you know what that's like, right, he's just gonna eat anything. 0:34:38.560 --> 0:34:44.160 And he comes in and uh, Jacob says, basically, I'm cooking. 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:47.200 No interesting thing is you think about cooking, and some 0:34:47.239 --> 0:34:51.400 cultures of course cooking, well, so cooking. It's interesting. We 0:34:51.560 --> 0:34:55.960 cook in American culture, and I know things are shifting. 0:34:56.000 --> 0:34:58.680 Gender roles are are malleable. But I would see in 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:01.880 the twentieth century if I said, oh, look he's cooking stew, 0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:06.040 you would go mm. Because the image we have post 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:08.560 Victorian era is of the woman cooking in the home. 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:12.239 Now that's we we play with that because if it's 0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:17.880 something large and muscular translation meat men have taken this 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:19.800 over and by the way, man, I think you've always 0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:22.719 done this. If they can make it difficult, they will, right. 0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:25.719 So we get smokers and we slap slash slabs of 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:28.280 of a hog and and all kinds of other things 0:35:28.320 --> 0:35:32.279 are sausages on a smoker. And suddenly the masculine, right, 0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:35.360 we allow that to come in. Yeah, you know this 0:35:35.440 --> 0:35:37.640 is it's funny been because like an interesting thing with 0:35:37.960 --> 0:35:42.640 in our home Thanksgiving my mom, Right, we'll take the turkey, 0:35:42.719 --> 0:35:47.080 do all the work on the turkey. Okay, cook the giblets, rolls, 0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:49.520 the whole damn thing, make the stuffing stuff and all 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:52.080 that kind of stuff. But my old man, who had 0:35:52.120 --> 0:35:53.600 nothing to do with this all day, all day, you 0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:57.120 just do whatever you want hunting usually would come home 0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:00.000 at night and be like, I will carve the turkey. 0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:05.200 Yeah exactly, because like clearly you'd be incapable woman of 0:36:05.680 --> 0:36:09.720 now slicing it. You've done all this but your skill 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:12.279 set and somewhere and we've found the moment. We've got that, 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:15.280 we've got the tool that the symbol of, if you will, 0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:17.919 of life and death. That not the blade, right, whether 0:36:17.920 --> 0:36:20.920 it's electric knife or it's this big chef's knife and 0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:24.640 the and the masculine takes over and Jacob's cookinge. So 0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:27.440 he's cookinge, he's not hunting. And so you get this 0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:31.160 idea of Esau who's on he a liminal character, liminal 0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:33.160 not like you know, like the thing that's sour, but 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:36.680 l I M E N on the limits, on the edge. 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:40.480 Hunters are always there. They have to be there on 0:36:40.560 --> 0:36:42.880 the edge, right, I mean, even if it's on the 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:45.680 edge of suburbia, your bow hunting, you're still on the edge. 0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:50.319 So hunters are always a marginalized group. Because as we 0:36:50.400 --> 0:36:54.600 see the domestication of the earth by way of the 0:36:54.640 --> 0:37:00.440 Neolithic agricultural revolution and continuing agriculture, we all these are 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:04.080 pushing wildlife to the edges. Now I know, some do well, right, 0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.560 So white tailed deer have done exceptionally well with some 0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:10.760 of this type of edge, if you will, kind of environment. 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:15.800 Others don't write migratory animals generally don't. Whether we're building 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:19.000 a road or doing something else, we're disrupting their patterns 0:37:19.000 --> 0:37:24.400 of migration. So hunters are always liminal stalls, a liminal character. 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:27.720 And he's all on the edge. Jacob's at home, Jacob's 0:37:27.760 --> 0:37:30.720 hanging out with the women, all right, that's what Genesis says. 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:35.600 He's a mama's boy. He's breaking some gender roles of sorts. 0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:39.560 He's breaking some gender roles here. And Isaac the Dead 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:43.440 has a taste for venison he saw his first born 0:37:43.560 --> 0:37:45.600 provides into this. So what you get it's almost kind 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:49.920 of like a hunter gatherer myth in conflict with this 0:37:50.000 --> 0:37:54.959 movement toward a grarianism and the domestication of animals, and 0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:57.920 so comes up and he ends up selling his birthright 0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:01.000 to Jacob for this poor rige for this because he's 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:03.920 so hungry. He's so he's famished, right and Jacob, it 0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:08.760 says uh, And Jacob gave esau bread and stew of lentils. 0:38:08.760 --> 0:38:12.360 Think about it. Both those things are products of agriculture. 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:14.719 Lentils you're growing from the earth. And bread is a 0:38:14.760 --> 0:38:19.560 product of course growing grains and cereal milling producing bread. 0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:25.120 So Esa brings meat, Jacob brings Neolithic agriculture. Here it is. 0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:28.960 But there's also a comment here too, where a criticism 0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:32.920 when you do have hunter gatherer cultures up against agrarian cultures. 0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:37.160 From the agrarian perspective, a criticism of the hunter gathered 0:38:37.160 --> 0:38:41.640 culture is the feast and famine, the highs and lows exactly, 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:44.520 so the fact that he's coming back, he's coming back 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:47.799 starving from an unsuccessful hunt. He's this guy like right here, 0:38:47.840 --> 0:38:53.879 bro bowl lentils, small produce it just so you get 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:55.640 the second story that shows up, the when you alluded to, 0:38:56.200 --> 0:38:58.239 and it's like a second story about how he loses this. 0:38:58.840 --> 0:39:01.080 I didn't catch this though, a right, and I forgot it. Yeah, 0:39:01.280 --> 0:39:03.239 that he already bought it fair and square from his brother. 0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:05.319 He bought the birthright, fair and square. All right, So 0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:07.239 when the great things about looking at the Revival in 0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:10.680 particular is it's woven together over centuries, and so a 0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:13.440 lot of times we get these stories that seem to 0:39:13.440 --> 0:39:16.640 to be redundant um and many times there and there's 0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:19.480 all kinds of arguments among biblical scholars, and they get 0:39:19.520 --> 0:39:21.319 all they know they're right, and they get in their 0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:23.759 little schools of thought. But you likely have here are 0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:26.560 two different myths, two different oral traditions that were floating 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:29.719 around one, which explained then how you saw is marginalized 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:32.200 in Jacob becomes the one who inherits not just the 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:35.960 birthright but the covenant that's made with Abraham and passed 0:39:35.960 --> 0:39:39.480 down to Isaac and then to Jacob um. And so 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:41.640 you get these not that you shouldn't be seen them 0:39:41.640 --> 0:39:43.480 as competing stories. It's like the story of Noah, right, 0:39:43.520 --> 0:39:45.920 how many animals did Noah taken through the ark? When 0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.160 one account says to the other, thing says seven. Well, 0:39:49.239 --> 0:39:52.759 what it is is probably stories woven together. Is the 0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:55.319 genesis one account different than the genesis to account to 0:39:55.400 --> 0:39:58.080 creation stories. So we probably have here are two myths, 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:00.560 two stories. And by myth, I don't that he bought 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:02.640 it one that he got tricked out. You got it right. 0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:05.399 So again when I say myth, I should say that's 0:40:05.400 --> 0:40:08.440 not to say a story about something that didn't happen. 0:40:09.239 --> 0:40:13.359 It's a story that a culture tells over time, and 0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:19.719 that story encapsulates what it means to be us. It's 0:40:19.760 --> 0:40:23.000 it's what ties us together. Hunters do this really well, right. 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:25.840 We tell stories. We tell stories, and we tell the 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:28.760 next generation how not to act and how to act 0:40:28.880 --> 0:40:31.960 by way of the stories. Sometimes we laugh at him, 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:34.920 sometimes we mock characters and the story. But you know 0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:38.120 then the cultural values. So these are stories that were told. 0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:43.520 That's a myth um and mythology has that two elements logos, 0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:47.040 that reason, rational, kind of coherent nous. And the myth 0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:50.200 is the good story that he's told well over a fire. 0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:52.840 And so we had two stories. So the second story, 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:57.200 so you've got Isaac and he likes his innocent, he 0:40:57.320 --> 0:41:00.759 likes his his his serabids, and so you right, good 0:41:00.920 --> 0:41:04.160 whatever um he sends, he saw out and sa is 0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:09.920 his favorite. But then the mother of Jacob uses deception. 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:13.279 She takes first she places on his arms. Oh the ma, 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:16.560 it's Mama's in there too. I mean he's a mama's boy. 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:20.200 So she's the one that favors the egg guy. You 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:24.520 got it, exactly, the big egg. And so you get 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:28.480 them this story about how she dresses him up in 0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:32.000 the to make him seem like the Harry Hunter. So 0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:35.520 what you get then is this story about the Hunter 0:41:35.680 --> 0:41:40.440 literally being carved out of the Covenant. The trickster Jacob 0:41:41.000 --> 0:41:44.600 ends up getting the Covenant blessing. Now, I gotta I 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:47.160 gotta warn you here. I think the stories of the 0:41:47.200 --> 0:41:50.959 patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should not be used as 0:41:51.280 --> 0:41:54.399 and this is how you should act, because they all 0:41:54.480 --> 0:41:59.080 do things not so great. Um. But the the story 0:41:59.120 --> 0:42:02.120 from the break to is not to emphasize the behavior 0:42:02.120 --> 0:42:05.440 of the patriarchs, but emphasize the faithfulness of God still 0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:09.800 dealing with these miscreants and still continuing to promise there's 0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:12.719 a lesson. But embedded in there sure sounds like a 0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:17.960 little hunter and gathering, passing away and putting forward the 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:22.839 idea of these pastoralists that eventually become urbanites. Um. And 0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:26.440 that's the story that's that wins after all. Think about it. 0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:31.040 Christianity is an inheritor or a descend of Judaism. And 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:35.840 Judaism is a story written by domesticators, and it's a 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:40.680 domesticating story. God wants you to be domesticated and that 0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:43.080 I don't mean that in a bad way, but to 0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:47.000 submit yourself. It's a story that comes out of the 0:42:47.080 --> 0:42:52.719 agricultural revolution. It's a story written by pastoralists and urbanites. 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:58.120 It's written by agricultural interests. And it's not surprising that 0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:03.400 you don't see hunting Lionized put forward as a model. 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:07.920 Well but in your okay, hold that thought, because I'm 0:43:07.960 --> 0:43:09.799 only gonna I'm only gonna counter it with what I 0:43:09.920 --> 0:43:11.719 learned from the book. Go for it. But first I 0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:14.799 got another thing I got like coming from Judy. Are 0:43:14.800 --> 0:43:18.319 you mean with the Hobad the Orthodox? There's like a 0:43:19.160 --> 0:43:21.359 there's thing called Hobbad House, right, and it's like some 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:27.160 strain or sect of ultra Orthodox Jews who have a 0:43:27.200 --> 0:43:30.920 sort of ministry. Were they a sort of ministry to 0:43:31.000 --> 0:43:34.440 wayward or what they would regard as wayward reform Jews. 0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:36.800 So anyways, I used to go to these Habad lectures 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:40.960 because it's really interesting. Okay, no background, no not, you know, 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:42.920 you go back as far as you want. My family's 0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:46.000 history is not a Jewish character in it. But one 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:48.920 day said to him, considering the dietary laws, like if 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:50.880 you look in the Old Testament, what it says like 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:53.319 you you do and don't eat, I'm like, seems to 0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:55.200 me that it rules out wild game, Like if you 0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:57.320 look in the Old Testament, you can't go near wild 0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:00.279 game because it wasn't killed in the way that they 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:02.719 say animals should be killed, which is to have them 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:06.520 be totally healthy and have their throat cut. And in fact, 0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:08.920 it says in the Old Testament you can't eat carrying, 0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:11.799 which is taken to mean you can't eat crippled up 0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:15.440 animals that the animal like to the point where they 0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:17.239 would take the lungs out of the animal to make 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:20.719 sure that it hadn't had any lesions from having been 0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:23.560 sick in the past and recovered from it is taken 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:25.880 that literally. So you have to have a super healthy 0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:27.960 animal that you kill with a special knife and you 0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:30.520 cut its throat. So I said, so, how can how 0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:33.000 could a person eat wild game at all? And he said, 0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:36.320 I guess you have to catch the net, catching the 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:41.320 net and then have and then do the sacramental like 0:44:42.320 --> 0:44:46.759 the ritualistic slaughter of the animal is what he explained, 0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:49.239 and the net thing caught me because this is the 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:52.680 thing that surprising about your book, and I'll explain what 0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:55.080 it's surprising about this and then you can speak on it. 0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:57.759 But one of the writers in the book, early on 0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:01.279 it goes on to a staff She's like, listen, the 0:45:01.360 --> 0:45:06.920 intended audience of this book was intimately familiar with hunting, 0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:10.480 because when you're writing something, you take for granted what 0:45:10.600 --> 0:45:14.560 your audience knows. And he goes into looking at metaphor 0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:17.760 and similarly in the Bible, and just to explain in metaphor, 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:22.400 like his metaphor, he chooses as the metaphor time is money. Okay, 0:45:22.760 --> 0:45:26.200 now this is like the metaphor time is money is 0:45:26.239 --> 0:45:29.520 a is a way of explaining time. You're like saying time. 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:32.719 I'm gonna try to define and help explain time. To 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:35.720 explain time, I'm gonna use something we all know about 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:40.279 and we all understand money. So here you're using, like 0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:42.640 using this thing we all agree on the parameters of 0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:45.000 it to explain something that we don't that we might 0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:47.200 not or he's assuming is is a little bit our 0:45:47.280 --> 0:45:49.759 understands a little more flaccid. So then he goes on 0:45:49.840 --> 0:45:52.040 to say how many times explain how many times in 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:56.279 the Bible there are metaphors that are like, you know, 0:45:57.080 --> 0:45:59.640 like when you're out net and birds, or you know, 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:02.160 when you get like a bad hit on something with 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:05.680 your bow, again and again and again. The way most 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:07.520 people won't even like see that this is going on, 0:46:07.640 --> 0:46:09.399 and so you kind of make this assumption that they 0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:12.160 were speaking to people who they like knew would get 0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:17.120 all this exactly. So this is the essay by Kenneth 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:20.879 Bass and uh again, Bass is a scripture scholar. Uh 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:25.799 he's a professor at Central Texas College and um, so 0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:28.560 it was just an idea he had, So we kind 0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:30.600 of developed as almost all these essays that kind of 0:46:30.600 --> 0:46:32.759 worked with the authors try and find something I could do. 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:35.120 So he thought he'd just kind of go back and 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:37.880 explore where's hunting in the Old Testament, because I mean, 0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:40.560 you think about it, the hunters that are named in 0:46:40.680 --> 0:46:44.080 the Old Testament the Hebrew Bible by name are a 0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:48.440 guy named Nimrod. Yeah, I forgot, because I forgot to 0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:50.600 have even talked about the name of the book god 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:54.680 Nimrod in the world Esau. And then the hunter who 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:59.480 appears the most who is named is Yale. God is 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:03.000 the most prominent hunter in the entire Hebrew. God is hunter, 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:05.960 God is hunter. So the question is how is God 0:47:06.000 --> 0:47:07.839 hunting and how these people hunting? So what he uses 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:11.359 is this audience response criticism where you expect then your 0:47:11.640 --> 0:47:14.680 your audience to get the metaphor and similar And when 0:47:14.680 --> 0:47:19.000 he began to explore it, he began to track, pardon 0:47:19.040 --> 0:47:21.279 the pun things that really he had never found in 0:47:21.400 --> 0:47:25.680 print before. That is that there is this continual, well 0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:32.360 frequent reference to hunting culture. Now it's almost always negatively spun, 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.120 and most of the time it's spun from the perspective 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:40.200 of the prey. So the metaphor in the assembly that 0:47:40.200 --> 0:47:43.200 show up in the Hebrew Bible expect you to understand 0:47:43.239 --> 0:47:46.640 the whole idea of hunting, and that you understand both sides, 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:50.600 the hunter and the hunt head. And it's used many 0:47:50.640 --> 0:47:54.440 times to pull out the poignancy of that relationship and 0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:59.719 to project in particular the the the plight of the 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:03.680 not so much to strength of the predator. And in 0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:05.640 this process he begins to look at how did they 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:08.200 hunt in the ancient Near East? And yes, they do 0:48:08.360 --> 0:48:10.400 use the bow, which is most commonly used to think 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:15.600 about it. When when God Yahweh places the the the 0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:21.880 rainbow in the sky at the Noah Uh covenant in Genesis, 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:23.920 and he says, by the way, among other things, I'm 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:25.920 gonna judge you how you treat each other as humans 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:28.440 and also animals as animals treat each other, but then 0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:31.640 gives permission to eat animals. This is in the storyline, 0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:36.200 is to shift away from vegetarianism. Presumed the vegetarianism. He 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:39.120 puts a weapon in the sky. It's a bow in 0:48:39.200 --> 0:48:43.160 the Hebrew. It's the same word bow weapon. He places 0:48:43.200 --> 0:48:46.040 a weapon of the Yeah, and what he doesn't say 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:48.200 is ain't gonna be no death. What he says, I'm 0:48:48.200 --> 0:48:51.279 just not gonna kill anybody anymore this way. But it's 0:48:51.320 --> 0:48:54.120 a bow. So what Bass does is he works his 0:48:54.160 --> 0:48:56.920 way through it. When he finds is that the Hebrew people, 0:48:57.280 --> 0:48:59.719 while they didn't hunt, they were familiar with it and 0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:03.120 as no cable TV. So how did they know about hunting? 0:49:03.320 --> 0:49:05.319 How do they get all these metaphors the stories are 0:49:05.320 --> 0:49:07.719 still being told. People on the edges must have still 0:49:07.760 --> 0:49:09.960 been hunting. And as he looked in particular at the 0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:13.279 laws the political laws uh in the Hebrew Bible. In 0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:15.600 those first five books, there's this book called Leviticus that 0:49:15.640 --> 0:49:17.239 has all the things you should and shouldn't do as 0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:19.600 part of the cultic practice. What he finds is there's 0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:21.839 a lot of animals that are permitted for you to eat. 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:27.680 You could only get by hunting. They're not domesticated animals, 0:49:28.200 --> 0:49:31.480 Ibex and the like, these gazelle types, these are all 0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:34.880 viable foods, but you had to course hunt them. So 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:39.560 what he recognizes is is that Hebrew scriptures seem to 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:43.040 be anti hunting because they give you these metaphors and 0:49:43.080 --> 0:49:46.480 similes that play at the poignancy then of the prey 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:49.799 being captured or sometimes of course bad people falling into 0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:52.520 their own traps, etcetera. And when he recognizes it's not 0:49:52.600 --> 0:49:54.960 the weapons of hunting, as we would only think of 0:49:54.960 --> 0:49:57.480 them just the bow and arrows, spear or javelin, But 0:49:57.600 --> 0:50:01.680 their nets, their pits, these are the things that they 0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:04.640 could use. There would be walls where they drive animals 0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:06.960 into them, into the pit, or into a reason they 0:50:07.160 --> 0:50:11.080 called a kite, that they could capture them and net them. 0:50:11.160 --> 0:50:14.480 These were actually quite frequently referenced in the Hebrew Bible. 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.120 The Hebrew people may not have hunted that much, but 0:50:17.120 --> 0:50:20.640 they knew about hunting culture and that whole react relationship 0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:23.319 then between the hunter and the prey, the hunter and 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:27.919 the hunted, was pivotal to understanding who they were, who 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:31.120 they were in relationship to each other, and most importantly, 0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:35.360 how humans related to their God, because God was a hunter. 0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:40.480 But when you say that it's it's negative. Yeah, but 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:45.120 doesn't the author explain that, well, he's not. They don't. Really. 0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:48.880 They don't like then go and condone agriculture either. They 0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:50.879 sort of use it in a in a similar way, 0:50:50.960 --> 0:50:53.800 like it's not like hunting is bad relative to other stuff. 0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:56.840 Think about the most if you've read the Hebrew Bible 0:50:56.840 --> 0:51:00.640 and the Christian New Testament, probably the most poignant symbol 0:51:00.800 --> 0:51:03.719 is one tied to an animal. Now it's not a 0:51:03.760 --> 0:51:07.560 wild animal, it's a lamb, the lamb led to the slaughter. 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:09.720 It's a sacrifice lamb. If you get to the final 0:51:09.800 --> 0:51:12.799 end of the story where the Christians win revelation, right, 0:51:13.080 --> 0:51:16.839 it's a sacrifice lamb that appears that is triumphant. So 0:51:17.280 --> 0:51:20.040 in the Hebrew Bible there's also this focus on the 0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:24.440 killing of domesticated animals for cultic practice or for food, 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:29.440 So hunting and animals dying and being captured, animals being 0:51:29.520 --> 0:51:31.880 led to a slaughter, ignorance of their fate which is 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:36.280 about to come. The writers use those metaphors and similes 0:51:36.480 --> 0:51:40.320 to pull out, if you will, what he calls the target. 0:51:40.520 --> 0:51:44.880 That that that emotion, that relationship, that idea that was 0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:46.640 hard for them to teach, so they did it by 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:50.719 way of this analogous language. So yeah, it's not explicitly 0:51:50.760 --> 0:51:53.959 anti hunting. But a problem is what the writer's turn 0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:58.480 to was that point in the hunt, the trap, the capture, 0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:02.160 the animal cause in the net at that point in 0:52:02.160 --> 0:52:04.960 time no longer able to flee. That's what they turned 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:07.520 to most often, and that comes across as being negative. 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:09.560 What's interesting about that is it gives us the idea 0:52:09.560 --> 0:52:12.360 that there was that level of sympathy and regret and 0:52:12.440 --> 0:52:18.080 empathy about animal life even then. Yeah, exactly, why can 0:52:18.120 --> 0:52:21.520 I ask? What did that lamb? Ca? Yeah, hey, this 0:52:21.520 --> 0:52:25.200 is Michelle. He might have heard some giggles in the background, 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:30.080 but uh, what did that lamb represent? Like? Symbolically? Well, 0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:32.760 at various times it represented number of things. It depended 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:35.600 upon the symbol right or or this similar um, and 0:52:35.640 --> 0:52:38.680 sometimes it represented those who were ignorant, who were going 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:42.040 into trouble. In many cases, of course, the innocent lamb, 0:52:42.080 --> 0:52:46.360 the one that had no blemish, no spot, represented something 0:52:46.400 --> 0:52:48.799 that willingly went. Of course, most famously, it's going to 0:52:48.840 --> 0:52:52.080 be used by the Christians to represent Christ who knowingly 0:52:52.200 --> 0:52:56.080 in some ways went to right, willingly gave itself up 0:52:56.160 --> 0:52:59.200 for the redemption, to the accomplishment of something a blood sacrifice. 0:52:59.200 --> 0:53:01.239 And then I'm perceiving it not so much as what 0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:03.640 Steve said, We're like you're thinking about the plight of 0:53:03.680 --> 0:53:07.000 the prey. I'm seeing it as like this is what's 0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:09.400 at steak. And a lot of times again, even in 0:53:09.440 --> 0:53:12.279 the hunting metaphors, there's what's at steak as well. So 0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:14.960 you get people who dig pits to trap their neighbor. 0:53:15.840 --> 0:53:17.560 That's not literally right. It's not like you don't want 0:53:17.560 --> 0:53:20.640 your neighbor to phone to a bit. My neighbors are 0:53:20.640 --> 0:53:22.399 pretty decent. I wouldn't want that to happen to him, 0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:24.720 you know what I mean. But it's this is what happens. 0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:27.600 Or most famously, of course, is there's this this uh 0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:30.239 saying that Jesus has he's got his disciples around. He says, 0:53:30.400 --> 0:53:35.080 you see the sparrows. No sparrow falls without God seeing it. No, 0:53:35.239 --> 0:53:37.560 you think, what's the sparrow falling for? I always wondered 0:53:37.560 --> 0:53:39.120 about that as a kid, and I heard it in church. 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:42.840 What's bass pointed out? The sparrow is the cheapest animal 0:53:43.040 --> 0:53:45.799 that would be eaten. You could get a sparrow for 0:53:45.840 --> 0:53:49.040 a penny. Even spells out what sparrows, what dead sparrows 0:53:49.120 --> 0:53:51.960 call exactly, so you can even get like in bulk right, 0:53:51.960 --> 0:53:54.360 it's like going to Costco or Sam's or something. You 0:53:54.360 --> 0:53:57.200 can get your sparrows. They were cheap food. Notice that 0:53:57.280 --> 0:53:59.960 God doesn't stop the killing of the sparrow, the netting 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:03.960 of the sparrow, but he's observant of it, he sees it, 0:54:04.040 --> 0:54:06.080 he's aware of it. So what makes them you get 0:54:06.080 --> 0:54:08.840 by the assemblies is an awareness of like how no 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:12.640 turkey dies about is hearing about hearing about it? And 0:54:12.680 --> 0:54:17.200 where it happened, you know, and and but God doesn't 0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:19.960 not empower the hunter. But think about it and the 0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:24.000 story of Esaul and his father Isaac, it's made very 0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:27.040 clear that you don't always get game, and if you 0:54:27.080 --> 0:54:29.520 do get game, it's made clear it's by the blessing 0:54:29.560 --> 0:54:34.200 of God. God blesses the hunter and empowers him, allows 0:54:34.280 --> 0:54:37.760 him then to find prey for his own. So God's 0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:40.439 mixed in all that's the God, the Nimrod in the world. 0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:42.680 It's the idea of looking to the divide and and 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:46.120 looking in this this faith or multiple faith traditions, the 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:49.399 idea of the hunter. Who's this character Nimrod? So if 0:54:49.400 --> 0:54:52.719 you will the divine now right well and then and 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:56.479 then the world. And an environmental approach, which I gotta 0:54:56.520 --> 0:54:58.360 say most Christians don't pay any attention to to the 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:00.960 environmental and most hunters, I gotta tell you thing that 0:55:01.000 --> 0:55:03.600 they don't go to a church or synagogue and find 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:08.400 a recycle bin at the back. But you're not this 0:55:08.560 --> 0:55:11.160 counters um, this counter something that was in an email 0:55:11.280 --> 0:55:14.759 just got no, it's not in this one. Do you 0:55:14.760 --> 0:55:18.239 think about like the creation story in the garden and 0:55:18.280 --> 0:55:21.840 being tenders of the garden and like Stewart's like, it 0:55:22.000 --> 0:55:26.640 seems like how are they missing that big point? And 0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:29.960 this is the huge issue, And that's the question of 0:55:30.040 --> 0:55:32.920 dominion and the question this is one that gets bounced 0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:36.120 around with multiple interpretations. And you're gonna talk about Nimron 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:38.160 and there's a connection I got a ton of questions 0:55:38.160 --> 0:55:40.200 about what you're talking about, cause you talked about you 0:55:40.440 --> 0:55:44.520 talked about Elder Leopold, and yeah, okay, well here's here's 0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:45.879 the thing. The guy wrote in this is the guy 0:55:45.880 --> 0:55:47.960 that wrote in about Paul and Saul all right. Goes 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:50.400 on to say a lot of Christians, myself included, have 0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:55.360 a passion for caring for our world and are very grateful. 0:55:55.480 --> 0:55:58.560 And he goes on, let's say some nice stuff. All right, 0:55:58.680 --> 0:56:01.600 So there's one. So so one of the things I 0:56:01.680 --> 0:56:05.000 particularly look at my own studies, um, and look at 0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:07.680 in my classes, but it shows up in this book, 0:56:07.760 --> 0:56:10.400 not just in my essays, but in some of the 0:56:10.719 --> 0:56:13.759 latter half from the academy, where you begin to see 0:56:13.800 --> 0:56:17.319 people who embraced an idea of hunting, but they want 0:56:17.360 --> 0:56:19.080 to do it in particular way. So, for instance, you 0:56:19.080 --> 0:56:20.920 have the Roman Catholic priest. You're not hitting me with 0:56:21.040 --> 0:56:25.600 nemrod right now. I'm weaving it back, I promise, um. 0:56:26.000 --> 0:56:29.160 And they're going to turn to Aldo Leopold um, and 0:56:29.800 --> 0:56:33.520 so Ted vitally he's at St. Louis University. Um, you've 0:56:33.560 --> 0:56:39.719 got uh, we've got a pacifist uh from Chicago, and 0:56:39.960 --> 0:56:43.640 he's gonna write in particular, he hunts any hunts with 0:56:43.640 --> 0:56:46.560 a bow. And the question is, you know, how can he, 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:49.560 as a pacifist embrace this? And so he his name 0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:52.600 is Greg Clark. He turns to Aldo Leopold. So a 0:56:52.719 --> 0:56:57.160 number of Christian writers from the Academy are very much 0:56:57.280 --> 0:57:00.439 acquainted with Leopold, particularly San County Almanac. If you've read 0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:02.880 that and you know the story, it's the story of 0:57:02.880 --> 0:57:06.560 the wolf, right the green Eyes, right as as they 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:09.800 just kill the wolf for the sake of supposedly increasing 0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:13.280 numbers of deer, and it begins to realize you can't 0:57:13.400 --> 0:57:17.160 look at hunting and at game management uh and managing 0:57:17.200 --> 0:57:22.000 resources with the idea of immediate gratification of increased populations. 0:57:22.240 --> 0:57:24.400 You have to see it like the Mountain sees it. 0:57:24.560 --> 0:57:28.000 You've got to think long term. So many Christian ethosis 0:57:28.120 --> 0:57:31.200 have turned to this, but what they're they're encountering is 0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:34.920 the challenge of the question of dominion. So one of 0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:37.959 the problems for people who want to be positive about 0:57:38.080 --> 0:57:42.520 hunting and they're looking for role models in the Bible 0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:46.080 is there's not that many. One of the interesting characters, 0:57:46.080 --> 0:57:49.280 the guy Iman nime Rod here we Go I promise 0:57:49.360 --> 0:57:55.880 you follow that rabbit. Thank you. There. It's an interesting character. 0:57:55.960 --> 0:57:57.960 He shows it just for a few verses. In Genesis. 0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:01.880 He's he's early, he's early, he's early on alright, So 0:58:01.960 --> 0:58:06.080 he's after Noah, after the flood story, and he's from 0:58:06.120 --> 0:58:10.960 a descendants of Ham. Now there's a whole story, uh Noah, 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:14.440 and they all get the promise. Yehaw. He starts growing grapes. 0:58:14.520 --> 0:58:17.400 He gets drunk off his ass, he gets naked. Um, 0:58:17.560 --> 0:58:21.760 is you remember this story? And unfortunately you gotta read 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:24.120 the Hebrew Bible. Well no, no, no, that's a lot. 0:58:24.280 --> 0:58:29.520 That's that's grapes Fermentum gets drunkunk, gets drunken, naked, gets 0:58:29.600 --> 0:58:33.880 drunken naked, and his his son shows up and sees 0:58:33.960 --> 0:58:37.560 his nickeheadedness. Right, this is nakedness. This is good stuff 0:58:37.600 --> 0:58:41.520 in the Bible. There's adultery, there's murder, there's nakedness, there's 0:58:41.680 --> 0:58:45.240 there's just all kinds of great stuff. Their myths, their 0:58:45.320 --> 0:58:48.480 stories that had I mean they had traction around the fireplace, 0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:52.080 um and the heart. So anyhow, he gets drunk. He 0:58:52.120 --> 0:58:54.400 has a son named Ham, who sees his nakedness, goes 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:58.600 back to his brother's dude dad's naked and drunk the 0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:00.640 other two brothers, and we don't know exactly what that means. 0:59:00.680 --> 0:59:03.080 He's all kinds of different interpretation that he saw his father, 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:05.480 you know. Uh. The two other sons come in and 0:59:05.520 --> 0:59:08.080 cover the nakedness of their father. They showed their respect 0:59:08.120 --> 0:59:12.640 and for this, then Noah curses his son Ham. Now 0:59:12.800 --> 0:59:14.920 it gets tricky because suddenly it goes from curs did 0:59:14.960 --> 0:59:17.400 nothing to help, who did nothing to help? Ends up 0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:20.400 shifting to cursing descendant he has gotten named Canaan, and 0:59:20.440 --> 0:59:26.680 then it gets ideological and then can enabled Canaan, No Canan, Canaan. Okay, 0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:29.040 So all this is Nimrod is a descendant of this 0:59:29.200 --> 0:59:33.480 cursed lineage, and then light shows up. Nimrod is a 0:59:33.560 --> 0:59:35.919 descendant of the cursed lineage of the guy that saw 0:59:36.080 --> 0:59:39.480 Noah drawnk and just ran off to the squeal on 0:59:39.560 --> 0:59:43.920 him right right, So it's really it's a short section, 0:59:44.040 --> 0:59:47.760 so it goes real quick. It's in Genesis chapter Tennis 0:59:47.880 --> 0:59:51.680 is coush Hey, great names right there, Cush, Spaghett, and Nimrod. 0:59:51.720 --> 0:59:53.600 He began to be a mighty one on the earth. 0:59:53.840 --> 0:59:56.680 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord. Therefore it 0:59:56.800 --> 0:59:59.880 is said, like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord, 1:00:00.360 --> 1:00:02.840 and the beginning of his kingdom was babel eric a 1:00:03.000 --> 1:00:06.200 cod Kalna in the land of Shinar, and from that 1:00:06.280 --> 1:00:09.240 land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, and it 1:00:09.320 --> 1:00:11.960 goes on. So what you get is this interesting character 1:00:12.000 --> 1:00:14.840 who was a mighty hunter before the Lord. The god 1:00:14.920 --> 1:00:19.080 saw him and seemingly empowered him and noticed it's proverbial, 1:00:19.160 --> 1:00:21.400 it's like before the Lord means in view of in 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:25.720 view of Lord. And again interpretations very but many scholars 1:00:25.720 --> 1:00:29.320 will say that actually he was empowered and successful because 1:00:29.520 --> 1:00:34.440 of the gifts from Yahweh. But what he does is intriguing. 1:00:34.920 --> 1:00:38.160 He's a mighty hunter before the Lord, but he begins civilization, 1:00:38.320 --> 1:00:40.960 he starts founding cities. So you have a liminal character 1:00:41.360 --> 1:00:45.080 who's powerful and at the same time then goes and 1:00:45.200 --> 1:00:48.640 establishes these major kingdoms that you become aware of in 1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:52.440 ancient or Eastern history, most famously of course the Syria Um. 1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:56.320 So there's not much there. So Nimrod becomes an intriguing 1:00:56.400 --> 1:00:59.520 touchstone for both people who are positive or negative about 1:00:59.560 --> 1:01:03.040 hunting and culture. If I do this just serving is 1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:06.960 not much to go off and it's not. But if 1:01:06.960 --> 1:01:09.360 you read my entire chapter you'll find there's tons And 1:01:09.440 --> 1:01:12.360 what happens is the Rabbis talk about it and they 1:01:12.360 --> 1:01:15.040 have their own commentary. So this is kind of extra 1:01:15.120 --> 1:01:18.080 biblical commentary that floats around as well. But if I 1:01:18.080 --> 1:01:20.520 were to turn to Janice and say, dude, you're a Nemerod, 1:01:21.440 --> 1:01:24.240 I don't think it's going to be perceived as a 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:28.880 positive evaluation. Definitely not. But isn't that like like I 1:01:28.880 --> 1:01:30.720 think if you look in the Urban Dictionary talks about 1:01:30.760 --> 1:01:35.040 like Elmer Fudd, like right, because the blundering hunter. But 1:01:35.120 --> 1:01:38.680 if you were to look at a a journal, a 1:01:38.720 --> 1:01:43.000 sporting journal in the early eighteen hundreds, early hunters and 1:01:43.040 --> 1:01:44.960 early hunters, I should say, hunters in the British and 1:01:45.000 --> 1:01:49.000 American traditions, we're calling themselves nemerods based on that little 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:52.800 dinky messters because how is that more important than because 1:01:52.840 --> 1:01:55.400 he was a mighty hunter before the before the Lord. 1:01:55.680 --> 1:01:57.880 So what you get his nimrod, where there's so little 1:01:57.960 --> 1:02:03.640 there becomes either the wonderful argument against hunting look twisted 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:06.480 into the negative and then twist in the Historically, what 1:02:06.520 --> 1:02:08.160 it was used is it was interpreted that he was 1:02:08.400 --> 1:02:11.040 one who was a hunter, and not a hunter of animals, 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:14.640 but a hunter of men. That he subjugated men and 1:02:14.720 --> 1:02:18.200 people's and thus became a founder of empires. Empires by 1:02:18.200 --> 1:02:21.160 the way that we're not democratic republics, right, these were 1:02:21.720 --> 1:02:26.600 tyrannical empires. And so it's perceived then that Nimroid becomes 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:31.280 then this symbol of oppression. And so that's what he was. 1:02:31.480 --> 1:02:33.439 And they don't give that power to him by God. 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:35.360 They simply say that God observed and or saw him 1:02:36.040 --> 1:02:42.480 the positive view, Okay, would the Bible have let that happen? 1:02:44.120 --> 1:02:48.840 That they meant hunter of man? So is there a 1:02:48.880 --> 1:02:53.680 precedent for using hunter to mean hunter of man? Well, 1:02:53.760 --> 1:02:56.480 what happens is you begin to get these commentaries and 1:02:56.520 --> 1:02:59.000 then among other people, there's a guy by the name 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:02.320 of Augustine. You may have heard of him. Augustine's a 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:05.120 theologian uh in the late three hundreds. I think he's 1:03:05.120 --> 1:03:07.680 born in three fifty four and he dies in four 1:03:07.880 --> 1:03:10.640 thirty a d uh. And he lives in North Africa. 1:03:10.640 --> 1:03:13.840 He's from a place called Hippo, pretty cool carthage Um, 1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:17.200 and he ends up writing some really important books and commentaries. 1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:21.640 He writes an autobiography called Confessions, and he also writes 1:03:22.000 --> 1:03:23.440 a way of trying to figure out what's going with 1:03:23.560 --> 1:03:27.240 Rome because Rome is sacked by the Visigoths uh in 1:03:27.320 --> 1:03:29.760 four ten. And he writes a book called basically Two Cities. 1:03:29.800 --> 1:03:33.440 So Augustine's really really important. He also gives the West 1:03:33.880 --> 1:03:37.800 it's clear view kind of about sin, original sin. They're 1:03:37.840 --> 1:03:41.080 all born busted. Thank Augustine for this. It's an Augustine 1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:45.760 the world view. But Augustine spends Nimrod as well in 1:03:45.800 --> 1:03:48.520 this perspective, and so you get this tradition that builds 1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:51.440 on other you can say, bills on other ignorances, but 1:03:51.640 --> 1:03:54.600 essentially begins to expand it. And you have the Nimrod 1:03:54.760 --> 1:03:59.440 disinterpreted in many different ways. And this idea of posts 1:03:59.800 --> 1:04:04.080 or should say extra biblical commentary that's floating around that 1:04:04.120 --> 1:04:07.360 many of these early Christian scholars tap into have him 1:04:07.440 --> 1:04:12.280 being in this empire founder not necessarily a hunter. And 1:04:12.360 --> 1:04:14.840 so I mean, you just gotta scrape away at the layers, 1:04:14.880 --> 1:04:17.240 going through all those primary sources, right, and you begin 1:04:17.360 --> 1:04:19.840 to see how you work your way to this. Now, 1:04:19.960 --> 1:04:23.360 what happens is in the eighteen hundreds, while early sportsmen 1:04:23.360 --> 1:04:26.680 who are particularly moving then towards the idea of sports 1:04:26.800 --> 1:04:29.360 hunting and developing it into something that we began to 1:04:29.360 --> 1:04:31.920 write about in Europe or in the US, both because 1:04:31.920 --> 1:04:34.880 it starts in Britain in particular, but a lot of 1:04:34.960 --> 1:04:37.560 Brits come over in the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties 1:04:37.600 --> 1:04:41.440 and they bring with them hunting sporting culture. They begin 1:04:41.520 --> 1:04:44.080 to create journals like the Spirit of the Times is 1:04:44.120 --> 1:04:46.160 probably the most famous ones. It's coming out from the 1:04:46.160 --> 1:04:50.040 East Coast, but the major writers are actually British sporting 1:04:50.080 --> 1:04:52.480 writers couldn't make it in Britain to come to America, 1:04:52.640 --> 1:04:57.160 and they began to push america uh sportsman into a 1:04:57.240 --> 1:04:59.600 new perception of hunting because up to that point in time, 1:05:00.080 --> 1:05:02.680 hunters were basically what we might call pot hunters. They 1:05:02.680 --> 1:05:06.040 were there to hunt for meat, et cetera. The Daniel 1:05:06.040 --> 1:05:09.280 Boone's who's the hero? Right that Davy Crockett's even right, 1:05:09.800 --> 1:05:12.160 sorry about the Alumo, but he nonetheless was a guy 1:05:12.200 --> 1:05:14.680 on the edge. So you see them moving forward. The 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:17.320 kind of cuts point out real quick like the differences 1:05:17.360 --> 1:05:21.280 there because Boone and Crockett are often like discussed together, 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:24.840 they're very different people there. They are really are Boone 1:05:25.960 --> 1:05:29.360 was a market hunter. So talked about a guy on 1:05:29.400 --> 1:05:33.360 the edge, right, he spent his whole life chasing the edge, um, 1:05:33.400 --> 1:05:35.400 the edge of civilization, right. But he was a market hunter. 1:05:35.440 --> 1:05:38.880 Hunted bear meat to sell the meat, hunted deerskins to 1:05:38.920 --> 1:05:40.560 sell the highs, and that's how he made his income. 1:05:40.880 --> 1:05:45.960 Crockett was attached to military campaigns and would hunt to 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:50.600 feed people out in punitive expeditions against the Indians. But 1:05:50.640 --> 1:05:52.640 that you gotta eat, right, and so Crocket would higher 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:55.720 on to go and meat for these expeditions. Both are 1:05:55.720 --> 1:05:58.600 associated with the frontier. Oh yeah, absolutely, And this is 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:00.960 this isn't this isn't trying to take apart what you're 1:06:01.000 --> 1:06:03.160 saying was pointing out to people like what sort of 1:06:03.240 --> 1:06:05.120 hunting they were up to to be, like they were 1:06:06.240 --> 1:06:10.120 commercial individuals, pot hunters, meat hunters, market hunters. Well, what 1:06:10.240 --> 1:06:12.960 you get here is just basically hunters, um. And you 1:06:12.960 --> 1:06:15.280 don't get the whole idea of pot hunters until you 1:06:15.320 --> 1:06:18.240 have sport hunters. So what sport hunters began because they 1:06:18.480 --> 1:06:21.760 invite the distinction exactly. So rather than so it's like 1:06:21.840 --> 1:06:23.800 we were talking about earlier, there's you can be a hunter, 1:06:23.880 --> 1:06:25.520 but there's a better way to be a hunter. Right, 1:06:25.760 --> 1:06:28.040 So and so today we have the same distinctions. We 1:06:28.080 --> 1:06:31.400 have things like meat hunters and we have a right 1:06:31.600 --> 1:06:33.760 and then how does that work out? That's another ethical thing. 1:06:33.760 --> 1:06:35.360 We can show that the side. But we come back 1:06:35.400 --> 1:06:37.840 to it. By the way, it's a great book came 1:06:37.880 --> 1:06:40.880 out around the year two thousand, two thousand one. It's 1:06:40.880 --> 1:06:43.760 out of print now, but I courage you anyone to read. 1:06:43.760 --> 1:06:47.120 It's called Hunting in the American Imagination. It's by a 1:06:47.160 --> 1:06:51.680 guy named Daniel Justin Herman. He's a professor, do you good? Right? 1:06:51.720 --> 1:06:54.920 So he develops this distinction. Quote him, I don't want 1:06:54.920 --> 1:06:56.560 to oversell it. Um. I mean, there's some things I 1:06:56.560 --> 1:06:59.400 don't agree with, but he really does something pivotal in 1:06:59.440 --> 1:07:02.440 the discussion hunting cultures in America. It's his dissertation. But 1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:04.840 he wasn't a hunter, and someone basically said, oh, we 1:07:04.880 --> 1:07:06.360 don't have a topic here right on this and it 1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:09.320 worked and I'm so thankful he did this. He laid 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:11.680 the grandmark. But he describes that these British hunters come over, 1:07:12.400 --> 1:07:16.080 they develop a sporting culture by way of particularly periodicals, 1:07:16.080 --> 1:07:19.000 and Americans as we continue to push the frontier further 1:07:19.040 --> 1:07:22.560 and further west take up this sport hunting. And cand 1:07:22.560 --> 1:07:26.120 I had another thing in here. Man Boon's people were 1:07:26.160 --> 1:07:30.640 from his family was British, not at all hunters when 1:07:30.640 --> 1:07:34.560 they came well, they had they discovered hunting in a 1:07:34.640 --> 1:07:37.520 very practical way. So these people you're talking about, our 1:07:37.560 --> 1:07:41.880 our upper like Boons people were working people. These British 1:07:41.920 --> 1:07:48.960 sport hunters are are the genteel. It's so particularly that 1:07:49.000 --> 1:07:53.360 come to America year afric But these are like wealthy individuals. 1:07:53.400 --> 1:07:55.760 They've been doing this for centuries in Britain, but in 1:07:55.760 --> 1:07:59.160 America we see this cultural shift towards sport hunting and 1:07:59.640 --> 1:08:02.640 there in bracing even if they're not wealthy, they embraced 1:08:02.680 --> 1:08:06.560 this idea. So for instance, there's this is this poem 1:08:06.600 --> 1:08:09.800 I found in Spirit of the Spirit of the World, uh, 1:08:09.920 --> 1:08:12.640 Spirit of Times from I think it's from eighteen fifty two, 1:08:12.800 --> 1:08:15.400 and of course I do Texas history as well, and 1:08:16.200 --> 1:08:20.200 uh it's it's Scattering the Morning Do and it's by 1:08:20.200 --> 1:08:23.439 an anonymous author and it's from It's just like it's 1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:26.599 eight years before the Civil War. It's written along the 1:08:26.640 --> 1:08:29.760 mouth of the the mouth of the Brases, if remember correct. 1:08:29.840 --> 1:08:32.320 So at the Gulf Coast. They're in Texas and it's 1:08:32.360 --> 1:08:34.840 a bunch of guys talking about getting drunk and tomorrow 1:08:34.840 --> 1:08:38.200 they're gonna go hunt. But it's sport hunting. Now eighteen 1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:42.839 fifty two, Texas has only been a state for seven years. 1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:46.240 It's only been a republic and then a state for twenties. 1:08:46.240 --> 1:08:50.880 Someone vanquish command commanches are are fixed the gang get 1:08:50.960 --> 1:08:53.040 territory during the Civil War. They're gonna push in back 1:08:53.080 --> 1:08:56.519 into central Texas. So Texas is just really East Texas 1:08:56.520 --> 1:09:00.200 and the coastal region. But they're already distinguishing themselves as 1:09:00.280 --> 1:09:03.599 sport hunters and the writing poetry and getting it published 1:09:03.600 --> 1:09:06.240 in New York for the journals. They are the periodicals 1:09:06.240 --> 1:09:08.599 that are coming out. So we have this birth of 1:09:08.920 --> 1:09:11.800 sport and they turned to nimerod As as their kind 1:09:11.800 --> 1:09:14.880 of their hero. He's a gifted hunter based on Yeah, 1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:20.479 it's just because he's hairy and red. Not think about 1:09:20.520 --> 1:09:23.479 that one for a minute. You're talking about racism and 1:09:23.680 --> 1:09:26.280 and things that are going on with the Native Americans, etcetera. 1:09:26.439 --> 1:09:29.439 You can see why they wouldn't write no, No, we're 1:09:29.439 --> 1:09:33.599 not nimerod We're mighty hunters. Just it's a mighty hunter, 1:09:33.720 --> 1:09:38.920 mighty hunter. Yeah, and so they that one adjective, that 1:09:39.120 --> 1:09:40.800 is it. And that's how the r now nimerod then 1:09:40.840 --> 1:09:44.880 becomes a reaction again, a pejorative, an insult, because it 1:09:44.920 --> 1:09:46.760 begins to be seen, particularly in Britain. When it comes 1:09:46.800 --> 1:09:49.439 over to America in the twentieth century, people would be 1:09:49.439 --> 1:09:51.720 called nimerods. But they were being seen in as a 1:09:51.720 --> 1:09:53.519 bunch of country gentlemen who wanted to be like the 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:57.160 wealthy of previous centuries who around road to hounds, right, 1:09:57.280 --> 1:10:00.960 chase the fox. And there were these new gentry. They're bunchly, 1:10:01.120 --> 1:10:06.120 a bunch of rednecks, rubes, country folk who basically trying 1:10:06.160 --> 1:10:08.240 to act like gentlemen. And so they would be mocked 1:10:08.280 --> 1:10:11.640 then as oh, you nimrods. And you begin to have 1:10:11.760 --> 1:10:14.000 just as you have the use of the name as 1:10:14.080 --> 1:10:19.439 this um positive no man, if you will have taken 1:10:19.439 --> 1:10:22.439 on by characters, you also have this pejorative that the 1:10:22.479 --> 1:10:25.840 critics on the outside are using. Also economically, it becomes 1:10:25.880 --> 1:10:28.400 like the term fake news, where you take something just 1:10:28.439 --> 1:10:31.719 turn it around on itself. Yeah, and so of course, 1:10:32.040 --> 1:10:36.360 fud right, thank you. Let's personify hunters as idiots, as 1:10:36.720 --> 1:10:40.320 rubes as people who can't actually get the rabbit, and 1:10:40.360 --> 1:10:45.200 so you get the fud kind of approach. Um the Nimerod, Yeah, 1:10:45.640 --> 1:10:48.760 man Nimrod gets a lot of traction. Thing is, and 1:10:48.920 --> 1:10:51.840 if you read my essay in the book, he's been 1:10:52.320 --> 1:10:56.519 he gets traction. Not just recently, he gets traction for centuries. Yeah, 1:10:56.560 --> 1:10:58.320 there's not much there, but you know what, if you're 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:00.120 trying to make an argument, it helps. If the not 1:11:00.200 --> 1:11:02.720 a lot of evidence, you know what I mean, you 1:11:02.720 --> 1:11:04.680 can make it what you wanted to make it. It's 1:11:04.760 --> 1:11:07.720 kind of like what you're always saying about Laramie, and uh, 1:11:07.840 --> 1:11:11.000 who's Who's Who's like a great Western Oh, the mountain 1:11:11.000 --> 1:11:14.120 man Laramie, Yeah, he got everything names shows up out west, 1:11:14.200 --> 1:11:16.240 promptly gets killed and stuff down through a hole in 1:11:16.280 --> 1:11:17.880 the ice and the beaver pond, and it winds up 1:11:17.880 --> 1:11:21.360 at half the damn state. Now, no one knows. No 1:11:21.360 --> 1:11:25.040 one knows where this dude came from. Nothing's known about him. 1:11:25.040 --> 1:11:27.559 It's just that somewhere someone's like, oh and some dude 1:11:27.600 --> 1:11:30.479 named Laramie couldn't find him. Sure enough, I found him 1:11:30.520 --> 1:11:33.120 dead in the beaver pond. The less you know, the 1:11:33.120 --> 1:11:35.080 more you know. It just winds up. It just gives 1:11:35.120 --> 1:11:38.800 you a lot of room to run. See, now, here's 1:11:38.800 --> 1:11:40.160 a question I want to ask you towards them, but 1:11:40.160 --> 1:11:41.519 I almost want to ask it to you now, but 1:11:41.520 --> 1:11:44.320 it's like it's too big of a question. Tell me 1:11:44.400 --> 1:11:46.679 this is too big of a question, all right, because 1:11:46.880 --> 1:11:48.559 there's a lot of stuff from the book that I 1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:49.880 want to get into. But I need to ask this 1:11:51.680 --> 1:11:56.960 in your world, in the world of biblical scholarships, just 1:11:57.040 --> 1:11:58.679 a hard question to ask because it's like you need 1:11:58.720 --> 1:12:00.360 to have it be this way or else they wouldn't 1:12:00.360 --> 1:12:04.479 be biblical scholarship. Is it? Is it discussed how the 1:12:04.520 --> 1:12:09.320 Bible is too open to individual interpretation? Meaning there are 1:12:09.360 --> 1:12:12.280 those who look at the Bible and the main thing 1:12:12.360 --> 1:12:17.080 they see is by God, I should persecute gay people. 1:12:17.720 --> 1:12:20.360 Some people look at the Bible and they see I 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:25.720 should do everything in my power to alleviate suffering. Like 1:12:25.960 --> 1:12:30.759 how right? How is it so big and so open 1:12:30.920 --> 1:12:33.559 to interpretation? So what you're asking me right now, is 1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:35.719 you see this land mine? Would you like to step 1:12:35.800 --> 1:12:40.519 on it? Okay? Okay, let me find let me okay, 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:42.920 how could it be? Okay, let's let's not even go big. 1:12:43.040 --> 1:12:48.880 Let's go small Nimrods good? How could it be like 1:12:49.840 --> 1:12:52.880 what do you see when you begin to see that 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:58.920 that some people in some time? Because here, let's let's 1:12:58.920 --> 1:13:02.000 bring it even more narrow. I'm sure that when that was, 1:13:02.080 --> 1:13:04.760 when that was being told around the campfire as a 1:13:04.800 --> 1:13:06.720 story to explain who we are, what we believe, what 1:13:06.760 --> 1:13:09.000 we ought to do, there probably was not a lack 1:13:09.040 --> 1:13:12.639 of clarity around how you're supposed to feel about nimrod Okay, 1:13:12.760 --> 1:13:15.639 that's okay, So let me let me touch it and 1:13:15.640 --> 1:13:17.160 and we'll see. I don't want to go too far 1:13:17.280 --> 1:13:20.920 with it. This is a huge question. It is a 1:13:20.960 --> 1:13:23.680 big question. Um, and it's a question. Okay, it's a 1:13:23.680 --> 1:13:24.960 big question. Let's see what I can do with it 1:13:27.560 --> 1:13:29.880 in my American history courses. Can you ask my question 1:13:29.880 --> 1:13:33.600 real quick? Do That's why I'm gonna read it. I 1:13:33.640 --> 1:13:35.280 want to make sure it's clearly I've I've muggied the 1:13:35.320 --> 1:13:39.439 waters when it was when it was a narrative, like 1:13:40.280 --> 1:13:42.519 when it was a narrative that people were telling in 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:45.479 real time to explain who we are, what we believe, 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:48.320 what our traditions are, and it was being impactful in 1:13:48.360 --> 1:13:51.920 the intended way. Do you feel that it was confusing 1:13:52.560 --> 1:13:55.960 then or is that? Is that not answerable? I think 1:13:56.000 --> 1:13:59.040 it's not answerable, not answerable. I think it's not answerable. 1:13:59.080 --> 1:14:08.000 I mean the Bible itself is a composite composed for centuries. 1:14:09.400 --> 1:14:13.280 And at least this is the prospective historians and bilbl scholars, 1:14:13.360 --> 1:14:17.800 okay today um. And as a result of that, many 1:14:17.880 --> 1:14:22.639 times the beginning, the origins have been lost. We don't 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:26.880 we don't know how it started. Now, historical criticism many 1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:29.280 times tries to work its way back to figure out 1:14:29.320 --> 1:14:32.839 where this came from, how it originated, what its import 1:14:32.880 --> 1:14:35.160 was then, and why it finds its way into the 1:14:35.240 --> 1:14:40.599 stories in the Hebrew Bible. What There's a guy named 1:14:40.800 --> 1:14:43.559 Lhausen in the nineteenth century puts forwards something called the 1:14:43.600 --> 1:14:47.280 documentary thesis. And what he argues is, if you look, 1:14:47.320 --> 1:14:49.280 for instance, just at the pentitute, this first five books 1:14:49.280 --> 1:14:55.840 we've been talking about against the word pentitude five books, Genesis, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, 1:14:56.040 --> 1:14:59.280 Numbers and Deuteronomy, is that the Old Testament, No, no, 1:14:59.520 --> 1:15:03.200 you got like a butler a ton more, a ton 1:15:03.240 --> 1:15:06.360 more books than the Old Testament in the here re Bible. Now, 1:15:06.840 --> 1:15:09.360 in those first five books, in particular, what you see 1:15:09.439 --> 1:15:15.960 than are various layers of sources being brought together. The 1:15:16.120 --> 1:15:23.920 sources themselves, many times were composites of oral traditions, maybe 1:15:23.920 --> 1:15:27.000 written traditions that were being brought together. Now he he 1:15:27.120 --> 1:15:29.800 defines them. He particularly looks, and he's saying, I think 1:15:29.840 --> 1:15:32.920 that these patterns are there, and that these sources can 1:15:32.920 --> 1:15:35.720 be looked at chronologically so famously. If I can do 1:15:35.800 --> 1:15:40.680 this right, it's j E p D. I think it's 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:42.360 rights p D. I have to look it up. So 1:15:42.400 --> 1:15:44.160 what he has to see as the y'all list, the 1:15:44.240 --> 1:15:49.439 elois uh, the priestly source, and the deuteronomous. So what 1:15:49.479 --> 1:15:51.640 he looks at is he looks at the scriptures and 1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:53.719 he looks like, for instance, what name is used for God? 1:15:54.560 --> 1:15:57.640 So in Genesis one you see one name for God, 1:15:57.920 --> 1:16:00.639 and Genesis too you see a different name for God. Well, 1:16:00.680 --> 1:16:02.879 what is it, hit, You have two different creation stories. 1:16:03.439 --> 1:16:05.680 What this hints to the scholar who looks at it 1:16:05.720 --> 1:16:07.639 from a critical point of view is you have two 1:16:07.680 --> 1:16:13.280 different stories from two different sources. They even call God 1:16:13.320 --> 1:16:16.639 two different names. Once Eloheim, the plural of l or God. 1:16:16.680 --> 1:16:19.680 The other is Yahweh, this particular personal name that the 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:22.360 Hebrew people had for God. So these seem to be 1:16:22.360 --> 1:16:25.640 two dishes to do, two different traditions that existed that 1:16:25.680 --> 1:16:29.120 were pulled together by an editor at various times, maybe 1:16:29.200 --> 1:16:34.439 multiple editors, and they're brought together because they're seemingly tight 1:16:34.680 --> 1:16:38.240 enough to communicate the story a salvation story, perhaps right, 1:16:38.880 --> 1:16:40.880 but at the same time that you get them many times, 1:16:41.000 --> 1:16:44.000 or where these stories originated and how they started in 1:16:44.040 --> 1:16:46.920 what their original meeting was. One argument is, if you 1:16:46.960 --> 1:16:50.200 read the story of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, is 1:16:50.240 --> 1:16:53.360 that really these actually weren't father son and grandson. There 1:16:53.400 --> 1:16:57.840 were three different stories about founders of tribes that as 1:16:57.880 --> 1:17:00.920 the Israelites came together, Hebrews came together. There they said, well, 1:17:01.000 --> 1:17:04.360 let's put them together, and somebody began to The stories 1:17:04.479 --> 1:17:07.439 began to grow and meld, and surely then Abraham had 1:17:07.439 --> 1:17:09.960 a son whose name was Isaac, and Isaac had a 1:17:09.960 --> 1:17:14.160 son whose name was Jacob, and the stories get melded together. Well, 1:17:14.200 --> 1:17:17.760 when you meld all that together, assuming you don't have 1:17:17.840 --> 1:17:23.920 divine inspiration, it gets complicated and meaning gets lost there. 1:17:24.680 --> 1:17:26.439 And that's what you get is the argument of these 1:17:26.439 --> 1:17:30.160 faith communities that brought these texts together. The Hebrew people 1:17:30.160 --> 1:17:32.879 who brought their texts together, and then the Christian community 1:17:33.080 --> 1:17:35.360 that took centuries. By the way, we don't the Bible 1:17:35.439 --> 1:17:38.080 that we have, that is the New Testament today was 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:41.400 not really kind of brought together, and in the arrangement 1:17:41.439 --> 1:17:45.520 we have today to almost four hundred, it takes basically 1:17:45.560 --> 1:17:48.360 three hundred and fifty years for the New Testament to 1:17:48.400 --> 1:17:50.679 get there. There are books that Christians in the early 1:17:50.800 --> 1:17:54.800 centuries held us being inspired and and and guiding that 1:17:54.920 --> 1:17:57.600 are not in your Bible. Books like the Book of 1:17:57.760 --> 1:18:01.800 James was troublesome, but because the books associated the letters 1:18:01.800 --> 1:18:05.080 associated with Paul seemed to be in juxtaposition to the 1:18:05.080 --> 1:18:08.200 themes that are found in the Book of James Revelation. 1:18:09.200 --> 1:18:11.960 Revelation almost didn't make the cut because if you've read 1:18:12.000 --> 1:18:14.880 the Book of Revelation, who knows what it means? That 1:18:14.920 --> 1:18:16.639 was written by a guy in prison on the island 1:18:16.720 --> 1:18:19.320 right there, John, right John on patmos So. But the 1:18:19.360 --> 1:18:21.840 point is it's so out there that many Christians like, 1:18:21.920 --> 1:18:23.960 this sounds like good stuff, but I'm not sure what 1:18:23.960 --> 1:18:25.559 it means. It could be interpret a lot of different ways. 1:18:25.560 --> 1:18:26.920 I'm not sure we want to keep it in the cannon. 1:18:27.200 --> 1:18:29.920 So the cannon tics forever for it to be formed. Well, 1:18:30.000 --> 1:18:33.600 basically three fifty years the Hebrew cannon, it depends on 1:18:33.680 --> 1:18:39.280 the interpreter, but years for the Hebrew cannon to be finalized. 1:18:40.040 --> 1:18:44.559 So so your question is excellent, how can you have 1:18:44.640 --> 1:18:49.320 different interpretations? And the answer is huge, and that is 1:18:49.360 --> 1:18:51.720 you're going to so me do it this way. I'll 1:18:51.720 --> 1:18:54.439 give you a short example to show how complex this 1:18:54.479 --> 1:18:57.200 issue is. I teach American history. Yeah, I know, I 1:18:57.200 --> 1:18:59.120 have degrees in theology, but I'm made my way over 1:18:59.120 --> 1:19:03.160 to history and the historians kind of taken in. They 1:19:03.200 --> 1:19:05.280 slap cultural historian tab on me and they're like, hey, 1:19:05.280 --> 1:19:07.360 you're good, stay over in your corner, all right. So 1:19:07.479 --> 1:19:09.519 I teach American history and I focused in particularly on 1:19:09.560 --> 1:19:12.800 the various interpretations of freedom in the years leading up 1:19:12.800 --> 1:19:16.840 to the Civil War in particular. But you look at slavery, 1:19:17.800 --> 1:19:20.559 the issue is and it's a thesis that was put 1:19:20.560 --> 1:19:22.920 out there by a number of historians, uh, and I 1:19:22.960 --> 1:19:24.960 think it's got a lot of value. Is that what 1:19:25.080 --> 1:19:30.880 you see is that in America, the interpretation of slavery 1:19:31.160 --> 1:19:34.719 as America is eight And I'm gonna put quotes around 1:19:34.720 --> 1:19:38.080 this because please hear the quotes Christian nation. That is 1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:42.559 the myth that ties Christian primary America together is that 1:19:42.680 --> 1:19:45.599 of Christianity. I don't think that wrong, But the point 1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:48.519 is that story of Christian story. Even people who would 1:19:48.520 --> 1:19:52.519 never go to a church, we're still familiar with the 1:19:52.520 --> 1:19:55.479 Biblical Yeah, yeah, I mean, but I mean if you 1:19:55.520 --> 1:19:58.560 look like the founding of like the Euro American tradition 1:19:58.880 --> 1:20:03.320 was guided. They knew the stories and the morality was 1:20:03.400 --> 1:20:05.280 defined many times about the stories that they heard or 1:20:05.280 --> 1:20:09.080 at least as interpreted. What you find is that Christianity, 1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:12.080 particularly the Bible. I should say the Bible loses its 1:20:12.120 --> 1:20:16.519 traction in American culture as a document that is an 1:20:16.520 --> 1:20:20.559 authority for making policy and determined the most important issues 1:20:21.120 --> 1:20:24.240 in the eighteen fifties. And it's not Darwin's Origin a 1:20:24.320 --> 1:20:27.519 species that kills it, which comes out in eight it's 1:20:27.560 --> 1:20:31.960 the problem that the Bible failed to properly answer with 1:20:32.120 --> 1:20:38.160 one answer only is slavery right or wrong? And what 1:20:38.280 --> 1:20:42.880 you get then are very I would argue good arguments 1:20:43.920 --> 1:20:48.200 that say slavery is a biblical institution, that God allowed 1:20:48.240 --> 1:20:51.520 it to be formulated and created in the Israelite communities, 1:20:51.760 --> 1:20:54.000 and that God even set rules on it looked from 1:20:54.000 --> 1:20:58.200 the Leviticus, etcetera, and that the New Testament provided no 1:20:58.720 --> 1:21:04.120 caveats regarding the extension of slavery forward. In fact, there's 1:21:04.120 --> 1:21:06.160 a little book that no one ever uses. It's called 1:21:06.200 --> 1:21:09.240 the Book of Phileman or Philaman. Uh, get bored in church, 1:21:09.280 --> 1:21:10.800 go read it. You can do it. It just takes 1:21:10.800 --> 1:21:13.519 a minute. And it's written to a guy who's lost 1:21:13.520 --> 1:21:16.519 the slave of a fugitive slave. He ran away, became 1:21:16.560 --> 1:21:21.880 a Christian, came to Paul. Paul sends him back, buddy, Paul. 1:21:22.120 --> 1:21:27.320 Paul sends him back to his owner, who's Philamen. The 1:21:27.320 --> 1:21:31.240 slaves a guy named Ossimus, and says basically, look, Fleaman, 1:21:32.160 --> 1:21:35.400 you treat him like a Christian brother, and if you can't, 1:21:35.439 --> 1:21:39.599 you send him back to me. But Paul never says don't. Well, 1:21:39.680 --> 1:21:41.880 Paul never says free him, keep him as your slave, 1:21:41.960 --> 1:21:43.880 but treat him like treat him. If you can't do it, 1:21:43.920 --> 1:21:48.280 sending back. So what many of the Southern theologians argued was, 1:21:48.439 --> 1:21:51.160 and they were politicians as well, as that slavery had 1:21:51.200 --> 1:21:57.880 a biblical foundation. Northern increasingly rabbis and Christian ministers began 1:21:58.000 --> 1:22:01.000 to argue that the particularly the New tests Men offered critiques, 1:22:01.080 --> 1:22:03.519 notably that Jesus came to set the captives free, give 1:22:03.600 --> 1:22:07.559 sight to the blind, and that the Golden Rule was 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:12.160 this ultimate challenge to slavery. Why would you enslave another 1:22:12.160 --> 1:22:14.360 man or woman when you wouldn't want that done to you. 1:22:14.560 --> 1:22:19.000 So the spirit of the New Testament was against slavery. 1:22:19.080 --> 1:22:20.679 So by the time we get to the eighteen fifties, 1:22:20.720 --> 1:22:24.320 the nation is ripping itself apart. The compromisers like Henry 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:27.240 Clay and John C. Calhoun is not a compromiser, but 1:22:27.320 --> 1:22:29.679 he's dying the whole generation of men that had held 1:22:29.720 --> 1:22:32.599 the nation together over this issue. We had the Missouri 1:22:32.680 --> 1:22:36.280 Compromise of eighteen twenty, where we keep compromising. The Compromise 1:22:36.280 --> 1:22:39.760 of eighteen fifty brings California in and all those Southwest territories. 1:22:40.000 --> 1:22:43.080 There's nobody there anymore. And no longer does the Bible 1:22:43.160 --> 1:22:47.639 give a valid or acceptable answer to the huge question, 1:22:47.840 --> 1:22:53.080 because there's multiple interpretations about the most critical thing. If 1:22:53.080 --> 1:22:54.920 you want to put it this way, the country's facing 1:22:55.400 --> 1:22:59.400 is a black man, a man as in all men 1:22:59.400 --> 1:23:03.759 are created equal. And if it can't answer that simple question, 1:23:04.880 --> 1:23:06.720 is the black man a man and his slavery of 1:23:06.760 --> 1:23:10.439 valid institution or invalid institution, what good is it for 1:23:10.479 --> 1:23:15.240 making public policy? And so that example demonstrates how our 1:23:15.439 --> 1:23:20.560 nation itself, which was at least of some historians evangelical 1:23:20.600 --> 1:23:23.080 at the time and turned to the Bible as its 1:23:23.080 --> 1:23:26.599 main authority, couldn't find an answer or by the way 1:23:26.640 --> 1:23:29.439 of saying it, without multiple answers. And then they go 1:23:29.479 --> 1:23:34.280 out and kill more of each other than we lost 1:23:34.320 --> 1:23:37.559 in all of our other wars combined, somewhere between six 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:41.240 hundred and six un Now there's a great history, and 1:23:41.320 --> 1:23:43.439 he's just retired. His name is Martinel. He was at 1:23:43.720 --> 1:23:46.200 Wheaton and then at Notre Dame. Who uses a line 1:23:46.240 --> 1:23:49.280 I'm gonna paraphrase, I'm gonna do a horrible job, he says. Basically, 1:23:49.360 --> 1:23:52.360 the matter is decided by the great theologians. William to 1:23:52.439 --> 1:23:56.160 come to Sherman and Philip Sheridan. If you know those names, 1:23:56.760 --> 1:23:59.920 you're buffalo stories. You know those names, they're not theologian 1:24:00.479 --> 1:24:02.000 what they are or as there are men of war. 1:24:02.439 --> 1:24:04.799 And so the decision about how to interpret the Bible 1:24:04.880 --> 1:24:07.920 was decided on the battlefield God. If God is a 1:24:07.960 --> 1:24:11.160 god of time and history and a providence determined what 1:24:11.200 --> 1:24:17.559 was the right interpretation. Yeah, he did. He did it 1:24:17.600 --> 1:24:19.960 through a proxy. He did it through a proxy for 1:24:20.000 --> 1:24:21.800 a sun that which is not surprising because he does 1:24:21.800 --> 1:24:25.400 a lot of things to So. Yeah, so scripture has 1:24:25.439 --> 1:24:28.759 been interpreted in any different ways, and for our own nation, 1:24:29.320 --> 1:24:38.160 it points them to a major major issue. Man, Okay, 1:24:38.200 --> 1:24:44.559 can be back up now. Sorry, Okay, you talk about 1:24:44.600 --> 1:24:48.160 perceptions of hunters, and when I say you talked about 1:24:48.160 --> 1:24:50.439 I mean people. Yeah, like your your book is structured 1:24:50.479 --> 1:24:52.879 and people you have, you know, people that are contributing 1:24:52.880 --> 1:24:54.639 to your book that this idea the perceptions of hunters 1:24:54.640 --> 1:24:58.320 comes up. But do you feel that there's a religious 1:24:58.320 --> 1:25:03.479 perception of hunters that gegorically differs from a secular perception 1:25:03.479 --> 1:25:14.559 of hunters? Meaning, Okay, our attack attack hunting from a 1:25:14.600 --> 1:25:17.720 religious perspective. That's probably a better way to get what 1:25:17.760 --> 1:25:19.679 I'm getting at, because I could do it very well. 1:25:19.760 --> 1:25:21.960 I could attack hunting from a secular perspective because I 1:25:21.960 --> 1:25:24.760 would just go borrow all the secular arguments I know 1:25:25.120 --> 1:25:29.519 that are out there about right suffering of any form 1:25:29.640 --> 1:25:33.920 and sentient beings and no, no, no no, no, right implications 1:25:33.920 --> 1:25:37.559 of wildlife management. How hunting has been unregulated, hunting caused 1:25:37.560 --> 1:25:41.120 all these you know, catastrophic losses in the wildlife world. 1:25:41.120 --> 1:25:44.519 I could do it all day long. Um, I understand 1:25:44.560 --> 1:25:48.000 all the arguments. I don't agree with them all. There's 1:25:48.000 --> 1:25:50.280 a lot of caveats, but I get them. So hit 1:25:50.400 --> 1:25:55.960 for me what a religious critique of hunting would look like. Okay, 1:25:55.960 --> 1:25:57.760 so let me answer me answer a question you didn't ask, 1:25:57.760 --> 1:25:59.560 and then try and get at it. So why is 1:25:59.600 --> 1:26:02.160 it even a valley question? Why should we be asking 1:26:02.760 --> 1:26:07.960 do Christian hunters have why DoD Why do we even 1:26:08.000 --> 1:26:09.519 want to talk about them? Did they have a different 1:26:09.560 --> 1:26:12.160 world view? Well? I think it's I think it's important. 1:26:12.160 --> 1:26:13.599 Are you asking me to know? I'm saying that's I'm 1:26:13.640 --> 1:26:17.000 gonna answer. That's rhetorical. Sorry. So in one of the 1:26:17.080 --> 1:26:19.680 chapters it's called Hunters of the Past and President all right, 1:26:19.760 --> 1:26:22.680 I look at some sociological instruments. In other words, they 1:26:22.720 --> 1:26:24.800 went out and the questionnaires about all kinds of things. 1:26:25.080 --> 1:26:27.120 But one of the things that they point out is 1:26:27.160 --> 1:26:30.000 if you go through and I analyze the data, is 1:26:30.040 --> 1:26:33.080 that hunters in America not surprised. And of course we 1:26:33.240 --> 1:26:35.559 just had the new report that came out. Then hunters 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:39.040 in America are just we're just losing numbers. We're losing 1:26:39.120 --> 1:26:42.479 only percentages, but we're losing We're losing hunters. This in 1:26:42.479 --> 1:26:46.280 the last two years, dramatic loss. And so the question 1:26:46.360 --> 1:26:51.320 is why is this culture we need to save? How 1:26:51.360 --> 1:26:54.719 can we encourage the identity or formation of an identity 1:26:54.720 --> 1:26:56.680 of this culture? And this is, by the way, is 1:26:56.880 --> 1:26:59.720 this is when the underlying objectives of my book is 1:26:59.760 --> 1:27:02.680 I want hunters to realize they have an identity. They 1:27:02.680 --> 1:27:04.960 need to figure it out. But there's no way for 1:27:05.000 --> 1:27:09.320 this culture to survive if they don't have a common identity. 1:27:09.439 --> 1:27:13.040 They don't identify who they are, what they are, who 1:27:13.080 --> 1:27:16.080 they're probably what they're doing in a relationship both to 1:27:16.080 --> 1:27:18.599 the rest of the world and the natural world as well. 1:27:18.960 --> 1:27:23.160 So you've got to formulate. But by looking at the 1:27:23.240 --> 1:27:26.720 data that came out and analyzing it, when the fascinating 1:27:26.760 --> 1:27:31.120 things I discovered was that according to the questionnaires, while 1:27:31.200 --> 1:27:37.880 hunters are dropping in number, hunters that remain are increasingly religious. 1:27:39.479 --> 1:27:41.160 Now that doesn't mean they go to church all the 1:27:41.200 --> 1:27:44.680 time and they're the questionnaires address this. Many of them 1:27:44.720 --> 1:27:47.519 are just what I would call religious, and that is 1:27:47.560 --> 1:27:52.760 that they identify themselves as being religious, believe in a God, uh, 1:27:52.880 --> 1:27:55.599 go to service occasionally, maybe once a year, et cetera. 1:27:55.880 --> 1:27:59.880 That's what you get then is this very large number 1:28:00.000 --> 1:28:04.439 of hunters every year in a decreasing minority that are 1:28:04.520 --> 1:28:08.880 overtly religious. So if we're gonna talk about hunters in America, 1:28:09.000 --> 1:28:11.840 we need to recognize that more and more hunters, as 1:28:11.880 --> 1:28:14.599 the numbers draw, are going to be religious. To continue. 1:28:14.760 --> 1:28:17.679 Another question is if there's going to be a debate 1:28:17.760 --> 1:28:21.840 about hunting, whether it's a valid enterprise or not, then 1:28:22.160 --> 1:28:24.360 there's going to have to be the only philosophical or 1:28:24.360 --> 1:28:27.679 ethical kind of secular arguments. But if there are people 1:28:27.720 --> 1:28:32.240 who see themselves as doing something that is religiously approved, 1:28:32.680 --> 1:28:37.120 divinely appropriated, you're gonna have to argue against that as well. 1:28:37.200 --> 1:28:40.200 And a secular argument may not cut to the roots 1:28:40.320 --> 1:28:44.080 of where they see as maybe their prerogative or even 1:28:44.200 --> 1:28:48.479 their responsibility. Okay, all right, So why is it do 1:28:48.600 --> 1:28:52.679 hunters see the world differently? Um? The answer I think 1:28:52.920 --> 1:28:58.360 is complex. The problem I find with the Christian hunter 1:29:00.120 --> 1:29:02.000 is to still align from Martinel as well, from a 1:29:02.000 --> 1:29:05.000 different book he wrote called Scandal the Evangelical Mind, where 1:29:05.000 --> 1:29:07.519 he said, the problem with the evangelical mind is there 1:29:07.600 --> 1:29:10.360 is no evangelical mind. What I would argue is the 1:29:10.360 --> 1:29:13.360 problem with the Christian hunter is the Christian hunter doesn't think. 1:29:16.120 --> 1:29:17.960 What do you mean? I mean just that they don't think. 1:29:18.000 --> 1:29:20.479 In other words, what I found when I interviewed Christian 1:29:20.520 --> 1:29:23.639 hunters is they didn't think about being Christian and a hunter. 1:29:24.680 --> 1:29:28.439 Only a minority did so. While they identify trying the 1:29:28.439 --> 1:29:32.160 two things together now, so they're not so. While they 1:29:32.439 --> 1:29:37.639 supposedly have a worldview that should be dominated by their 1:29:38.520 --> 1:29:42.840 identity as a Christian in particular, they don't actually take 1:29:42.960 --> 1:29:47.559 that Christianity and think about it in an enterprise that 1:29:47.640 --> 1:29:51.080 many of them choose as being Yeah, their father, perhaps, 1:29:51.120 --> 1:29:54.599 their wife, their spouse, their mother, their whatever they happen 1:29:54.680 --> 1:29:56.320 to be. But the next thing they're gonna put on 1:29:56.320 --> 1:29:59.960 theirs and I'm a hunter, but they're Christian, probably was 1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:03.439 before that. But they don't think about it um and 1:30:03.520 --> 1:30:05.280 so should they. And so I'm gonna give you a 1:30:05.360 --> 1:30:07.080 quote here from a book just came out. It's called 1:30:07.120 --> 1:30:10.840 Knowing Creation Prospectives and Theology, Philosophy and Science by guy 1:30:10.880 --> 1:30:14.120 named Andrew Torrance. Sees the editor and Thomas McCall I 1:30:14.240 --> 1:30:16.439 like to think this is spectacular because I actually taught 1:30:16.479 --> 1:30:18.960 Andrew Torrance was human his ninth grade, and so everything 1:30:18.960 --> 1:30:22.280 he says that's brilliance belongs to me. He's a lecture 1:30:22.320 --> 1:30:27.120 at the um in Scotland at I think where he's 1:30:27.120 --> 1:30:30.000 a He's at St. Andrew's University. Okay, So, but he 1:30:30.040 --> 1:30:32.080 makes this quote, and he's talking about science, but it's 1:30:32.120 --> 1:30:36.480 applicable to the Christian hunter. The Christian, he writes, believes 1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:40.200 that the natural world is created, ordered, and maintained by God, 1:30:40.240 --> 1:30:43.479 who acts in its history in special ways. As I've 1:30:43.479 --> 1:30:46.280 been arguing, there's no reason for the Christian scientists, nothing 1:30:46.320 --> 1:30:49.120 from an Hunter, but in her capacity as a scientist, 1:30:49.160 --> 1:30:51.800 to think that maintaining those beliefs would get in the 1:30:51.840 --> 1:30:55.960 way of the scientific task. She should, and now I'm summarizing, 1:30:56.160 --> 1:30:59.960 do her job as a scientist, but she still needs 1:31:00.040 --> 1:31:03.080 to do it as a Christian because, now skipping of 1:31:03.160 --> 1:31:07.240 page furthermore, the Christian believes that God is actively involved 1:31:07.240 --> 1:31:10.640 in history, creating a faith that can serve as a 1:31:10.680 --> 1:31:16.639 witness to God's creative, providential, and redentive activity. For this reason, 1:31:17.000 --> 1:31:19.000 there should be a difference between the way in which 1:31:19.000 --> 1:31:22.920 the Christian scientists insert historian Promman Hunter here, and the 1:31:23.040 --> 1:31:26.719 naturalistic scientists approach and interpret the structure behavior in history 1:31:26.760 --> 1:31:28.960 in the natural world. If a Christian is truly a 1:31:29.000 --> 1:31:31.720 Christian and believes that there's a world that has been 1:31:31.760 --> 1:31:35.200 created shaped, has a narrative that's tied to a god, 1:31:35.280 --> 1:31:38.400 that is whatever they see in scripture, then they should 1:31:38.439 --> 1:31:42.400 act according toly accordingly. So for the critic who turns 1:31:42.439 --> 1:31:45.120 to the Christian Hunter and wants to argue ethics, they 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:48.599 should if they're arguing with an intelligent and reflective Christian 1:31:48.680 --> 1:31:53.720 Hunter turned then too ethical questions arguments that challenge them 1:31:53.760 --> 1:31:57.599 the basis of that Christian interpretation. What I discovered is 1:31:58.000 --> 1:32:02.320 Christian sea hunting a lot of different ways, and actually 1:32:02.320 --> 1:32:05.040 from critics, they would see it many times just like 1:32:05.160 --> 1:32:09.000 kind of slavery. And that is what you get are 1:32:09.040 --> 1:32:12.680 people who say, I look at the story of Genesis 1:32:12.680 --> 1:32:14.800 one and Genesis too, and what I see is that 1:32:14.920 --> 1:32:19.799 humans are empowered to have dominion, to be not just simply, 1:32:19.920 --> 1:32:23.360 if you will, cultivators of the earth, but to subdue it, 1:32:25.200 --> 1:32:27.160 and therefore I can do with it as I will. 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:31.920 I find these people don't recycle good all right, now, 1:32:32.360 --> 1:32:35.880 not all of them do so without thinking. Perhaps from 1:32:35.880 --> 1:32:39.040 the best arguments I've seen is by a um, a 1:32:39.120 --> 1:32:42.320 theologian and a biologist by the name of Stephen van Tassel, 1:32:42.840 --> 1:32:47.000 and he has he's extraordinarily erudite. Uh. He teaches at 1:32:47.000 --> 1:32:49.040 a school in Britain, but also works in the West 1:32:49.080 --> 1:32:51.720 here in America dealing with rotents. By the way he 1:32:51.800 --> 1:32:55.360 deals with his stick stick is how do you kill things? 1:32:55.439 --> 1:32:58.920 Are a pest um? So he does it from a 1:32:59.000 --> 1:33:03.519 very erudite approach, but it's rare. The problem is when 1:33:03.560 --> 1:33:06.880 you begin to question how then humans should relate to 1:33:07.040 --> 1:33:11.040 the natural world. If you believe in the Christian view 1:33:11.800 --> 1:33:16.679 that somehow the incarnation of Jesus Christ as the Divine 1:33:16.760 --> 1:33:21.120 now within the human somehow, giving both approval to the 1:33:21.160 --> 1:33:24.719 divine creation that we know however that happened, but also 1:33:24.960 --> 1:33:29.400 that the sacrifice of that lamb on the cross somehow 1:33:29.439 --> 1:33:33.679 brings about a new reality. Does that new reality of 1:33:33.840 --> 1:33:39.000 the crucifixion and the resurrection change how we should relate 1:33:39.040 --> 1:33:41.799 to the natural world. Does it bring about a new covenant? 1:33:42.000 --> 1:33:47.000 Doesn't bring about a new relationship to animals? Two to 1:33:47.200 --> 1:33:49.719 the Flora and fauna of the earth if it does, 1:33:50.080 --> 1:33:53.080 and it particularly many times critics of of of hunting 1:33:53.160 --> 1:33:56.160 turned to the Book of Isaiah and they see this 1:33:56.280 --> 1:33:59.800 kind of messianic where the lamb lies down with the lion, 1:34:00.160 --> 1:34:02.320 that this is the way it was and this is 1:34:02.360 --> 1:34:05.760 the way it should be. They're going to argue that 1:34:06.000 --> 1:34:08.439 you are a new creation in Christ. So the world 1:34:08.560 --> 1:34:11.960 also participates in that covenant, just like the world participated 1:34:11.960 --> 1:34:15.360 with the covenant and Noah's covenant with God. So it 1:34:15.400 --> 1:34:17.920 wasn't just Noah who was going to be protected from 1:34:17.920 --> 1:34:20.519 the flood, but the earth was, and the animals are 1:34:20.520 --> 1:34:23.519 going to be protected from that kind of flood uh 1:34:23.560 --> 1:34:28.080 and destruction. So that covenant extends then to the entire world, 1:34:28.240 --> 1:34:32.439 natural world, animals, etcetera. So stop killing animals. Now that's 1:34:32.479 --> 1:34:36.160 a horribly simplified view. But if your creation, new creation 1:34:36.200 --> 1:34:41.200 in Christ, quit sending live properly inappropriately with your fellow humans, 1:34:41.360 --> 1:34:44.479 and live appropriately in a non violent way with the 1:34:44.560 --> 1:34:48.800 flora and fauna around you. But the problem is the 1:34:48.840 --> 1:34:51.840 reality problem is a number of things. One is, does 1:34:51.880 --> 1:35:00.000 that mean then that I have to make large cats vegetarians? 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:03.920 Is the natural world of view a window through which 1:35:03.920 --> 1:35:06.160 I can see the divine plan. That's been a long 1:35:06.520 --> 1:35:10.240 held claim of Christianity. It's called natural theology. That I 1:35:10.280 --> 1:35:12.120 can look at the world and I can see, in 1:35:12.160 --> 1:35:16.080 its magnificence and its complexity and its diversity, the hand 1:35:16.240 --> 1:35:20.840 of a divine and providential, divine hands working in this 1:35:20.880 --> 1:35:24.320 world that, even if I don't know or can't see 1:35:24.320 --> 1:35:27.160 a God, the magnificence, the beauty that I see when 1:35:27.160 --> 1:35:29.639 I see a waterfall or a mountain, when I'm sitting 1:35:29.760 --> 1:35:32.240 up there and not having seen any game animals, moves 1:35:32.280 --> 1:35:34.640 me to what we might call a religious experience, the 1:35:34.680 --> 1:35:38.720 idea there's something greater than me, a greater than human reality. 1:35:38.800 --> 1:35:41.880 So I may not know that there's three and one trinity, 1:35:41.920 --> 1:35:44.439 I know that there's this thing, this greater than thing, 1:35:44.880 --> 1:35:48.439 greater than me, thing that has provided, that has created me, 1:35:48.520 --> 1:35:51.719 brought me into being in some fashion, whether evolutionary theory 1:35:51.800 --> 1:35:56.040 or whatever you have. So if there's a new creation, 1:35:57.320 --> 1:36:00.559 is therefore the predatory world that is reality that all 1:36:00.680 --> 1:36:04.160 things consume all things. We die, and if they can 1:36:04.160 --> 1:36:06.320 get to the steel, they're end up, worms are gonna 1:36:06.320 --> 1:36:09.960 get me, etcetera. We all get eaten. Is that not 1:36:10.120 --> 1:36:13.559 really God's plan. And if that's so, isn't this world 1:36:13.600 --> 1:36:16.400 then something that's not really the creator God's isn't this 1:36:18.240 --> 1:36:21.240 and some nastick if you read, for instance, the essay 1:36:22.560 --> 1:36:26.760 by Nathan um And and the question is where do 1:36:26.840 --> 1:36:29.920 we go from here? Is the argument that we're supposed 1:36:29.960 --> 1:36:31.920 to be a new creation, and that we're supposed to 1:36:31.960 --> 1:36:34.360 see the world, the natural world, a new way live 1:36:34.439 --> 1:36:38.840 with humans and animals, and a new covenant of peace, tranquility, 1:36:39.040 --> 1:36:42.599 and of love. Most importantly, does that deny the world 1:36:42.640 --> 1:36:48.200 we know? We'll see answer. I don't know. I just 1:36:48.280 --> 1:36:51.559 write about this stuff. No, for me, it's it's a 1:36:51.560 --> 1:36:54.679 difficult question because I think about this and I look 1:36:54.720 --> 1:36:59.519 around and I see, I see that the world does consume. 1:37:00.479 --> 1:37:05.840 It just does. And I, as a hunter, feel I'll 1:37:05.880 --> 1:37:12.080 admit euphoria when I am, if you want to call 1:37:12.120 --> 1:37:15.759 it successful, when I kill, and at the same moment, 1:37:15.840 --> 1:37:20.920 I feel absolute guilt and loss when I look at 1:37:20.960 --> 1:37:25.320 that which was once beautiful no longer moving. I feel 1:37:25.360 --> 1:37:27.760 pride when I feed friends and family with the meat 1:37:27.800 --> 1:37:31.240 that I've taken. Ill even I even have pride when 1:37:31.280 --> 1:37:33.880 I look at the furs on my floor. The I 1:37:33.880 --> 1:37:36.720 don't have any great trophies, but the taxidermy amounts on 1:37:36.760 --> 1:37:39.680 my wall. I tell the stories about those things, and 1:37:39.760 --> 1:37:42.519 for that moment me, it's kind of sacramental that animal 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:45.600 lives again when I tell that story. It's why to me, 1:37:45.640 --> 1:37:47.720 taxidermy amounts, by the way, mean nothing if if you 1:37:47.760 --> 1:37:50.360 find him in a junk store, because there's no story 1:37:50.400 --> 1:37:53.120 attached to them. There's no reality. That's no longer being 1:37:53.200 --> 1:37:57.040 it's no longer being associated with them. It's just plastic 1:37:57.120 --> 1:37:59.719 form with first stretched on it. But for me, all 1:37:59.720 --> 1:38:02.240 these things are going on, and as I read the 1:38:02.240 --> 1:38:04.760 scriptures there, they don't answer. To be honest, a lot 1:38:04.800 --> 1:38:10.200 of great questions they there's challenges, but there's a multiplicity 1:38:10.200 --> 1:38:14.599 of responses. For me, what I take away from it 1:38:14.720 --> 1:38:16.680 is I look to the natural world, a look to 1:38:16.720 --> 1:38:20.640 what moves me as a hunter who sees himself as 1:38:20.680 --> 1:38:22.320 one of his. You know, I hope when they put 1:38:22.400 --> 1:38:25.080 my gravestone it will be something like hopefully you know, 1:38:25.160 --> 1:38:32.400 faithful husband, good friend, teacher, hopefully good teacher, and hunter. 1:38:33.120 --> 1:38:35.960 Those four things would encapsulate who I am in so 1:38:36.040 --> 1:38:39.240 many different ways. I've hunted for grades, I've hunted for 1:38:39.320 --> 1:38:42.320 all kinds of facts and data in history, and I'm 1:38:42.400 --> 1:38:45.519 hunted for animals. But with that moment of gain, there 1:38:45.560 --> 1:38:48.720 comes loss. And I think that I can find an 1:38:48.880 --> 1:38:53.320 argument for hunting in the Bible, but it requires a 1:38:53.439 --> 1:38:57.840 hunting that is responsible, that is reflective, that looks then 1:38:57.880 --> 1:39:00.360 to the health of the entire go lee pulled on 1:39:00.439 --> 1:39:04.480 in biotic community, and that my failure to be responsible 1:39:05.040 --> 1:39:08.320 in both the kill, the hunt, and for simply trying 1:39:08.400 --> 1:39:11.920 to find the good of this earth. If I failed 1:39:11.960 --> 1:39:16.840 to do that, that's a sin, because that's a crime 1:39:16.880 --> 1:39:20.559 against what I know to be true and the God 1:39:20.800 --> 1:39:24.040 who gave this beauty in this world. So in the 1:39:24.120 --> 1:39:28.000 act of killing, consuming, I hope that I'm bringing life. 1:39:29.320 --> 1:39:33.320 Um And there's an article or a chapter who by 1:39:33.320 --> 1:39:37.080 a kind of Jim Tantalo, and Jim argues that even 1:39:37.200 --> 1:39:41.280 in the tragedy of death, I am transformed. If I'm 1:39:41.320 --> 1:39:45.080 reflective as an hunter, I'm transformed because in the moment 1:39:45.120 --> 1:39:47.840 of death, of killing something, I live more than I 1:39:47.880 --> 1:39:51.439 live before, because I recognize the reality of death for 1:39:51.479 --> 1:39:56.519 me to come. Yeah for for the hunter, because just 1:39:56.680 --> 1:39:59.320 as I kill, and just as I consume with joy, 1:39:59.800 --> 1:40:03.719 with poignancy, with sorrow, so I too will be consumed, 1:40:04.040 --> 1:40:09.000 whether by aberrant cells, clogged arteries, are something more violent, 1:40:09.720 --> 1:40:13.400 it's our end for the Christian. The hope is that 1:40:13.439 --> 1:40:17.200 there's something more. Because the covenant that embraced humanity in 1:40:17.360 --> 1:40:21.080 the very beginning of Genesis, one that embraces humanity and 1:40:21.160 --> 1:40:24.880 I don't know what the woe with Noah uh in Genesis, 1:40:25.360 --> 1:40:30.160 then is also the covenant that is going to embrace Christians, 1:40:30.200 --> 1:40:32.719 and if you will, in the sacrifice of Christ and resurrection, 1:40:32.800 --> 1:40:36.240 but also in Revelation, all those covenants also embraced the 1:40:36.360 --> 1:40:39.799 entire creative world. It's extended to the earth, to the soil, 1:40:40.000 --> 1:40:43.240 to the animals, to the vegetation. There's a redemptive process 1:40:43.280 --> 1:40:47.360 that goes on, and right now this is what we have. 1:40:47.760 --> 1:40:55.400 If I failed to be responsible, reflective, serious, right now, 1:40:55.760 --> 1:41:00.439 there's something that should also be going on. So that 1:41:00.520 --> 1:41:03.000 leads me to diet, tribes and class about other things. 1:41:03.040 --> 1:41:05.360 But yeah, well, I want to make sure I'm getting 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:08.080 your last point that you say, right now this is 1:41:08.120 --> 1:41:12.439 what we have, meaning that you would feel is not 1:41:13.400 --> 1:41:16.960 the one. Can't just trash this knowing that you have 1:41:18.600 --> 1:41:20.640 the afterlife to fall back on. When I was a 1:41:20.760 --> 1:41:23.960 kid in church, we used to sing this song. This 1:41:24.000 --> 1:41:27.320 world is not my home. I'm just passing through. My 1:41:27.400 --> 1:41:30.160 treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue. The angels 1:41:30.200 --> 1:41:33.479 beckon me from Heaven's open door, and I can't feel 1:41:33.520 --> 1:41:37.200 at home in this world anymore. It's a great moving song, 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:39.640 and I sang it for you know when I was 1:41:39.640 --> 1:41:42.439 in church as a kid. But now I think about it, 1:41:43.960 --> 1:41:46.599 that's not right. This is a creative world for me. 1:41:46.960 --> 1:41:52.880 It is a window to the divine plan. Yes it's predatory, 1:41:52.920 --> 1:41:55.639 but at the same time, out of death comes new life, 1:41:56.160 --> 1:41:58.240 whether it be Christ's story or what we see in 1:41:58.240 --> 1:42:02.200 the world around us. And so this is my home. 1:42:02.560 --> 1:42:05.640 I'm not just passing through. If this is where I 1:42:05.720 --> 1:42:09.640 have my beginning, whatever is beyond this life has to 1:42:09.720 --> 1:42:14.400 be built on this experience right here, right now. This 1:42:14.479 --> 1:42:17.559 is where I'm being formed. This is where I'm finding truth. 1:42:17.840 --> 1:42:20.920 There may be truth beyond, but this is what I've 1:42:20.960 --> 1:42:23.880 got and it can't just simply be a waste of time. 1:42:26.720 --> 1:42:30.200 So this world is my home. I'm not passing through. 1:42:30.320 --> 1:42:34.320 My treasures are here and beyond. Have you ever heard 1:42:34.360 --> 1:42:42.800 anyone talk about extinction, meaning that through human actions we 1:42:42.800 --> 1:42:46.040 would drive species extinction. Have you ever heard anyone talk 1:42:46.080 --> 1:42:51.360 about that and talk about Noah's Ark? Oh? Yeah, the 1:42:51.439 --> 1:42:55.439 pains that people went through to make sure that we 1:42:55.479 --> 1:43:00.080 were not losing animals. Oh, whoa, that's interesting. Oh I 1:43:00.080 --> 1:43:03.439 see what you're saying. Um, No, I never have. It's like, no, 1:43:03.560 --> 1:43:07.120 we will save two of everything. Yes, if it's result, 1:43:07.120 --> 1:43:08.679 I'll shoot it and I'll put it in a museum. 1:43:10.560 --> 1:43:12.640 The elker disappearing, But dad gambit I saw when I 1:43:12.640 --> 1:43:15.720 shot it. We'll put it in the Bronx Zoo. That's 1:43:15.720 --> 1:43:17.839 not an idea I've ever heard anyone bringer. I haven't. 1:43:17.920 --> 1:43:20.360 Actually now. It could be because I just don't read 1:43:20.360 --> 1:43:24.880 widely enough, but I haven't. Um. I got another one 1:43:24.880 --> 1:43:28.120 for you. Here's no and this is from this from 1:43:28.160 --> 1:43:31.439 your own Um, this is like an idea that comes 1:43:31.479 --> 1:43:35.520 up in your own book. How could a Christian reconcile 1:43:35.640 --> 1:43:40.840 the tension of embracing the bloody wild? I guess your 1:43:40.880 --> 1:43:47.320 words while finding salvation and a domesticating religion found by pastures. 1:43:49.360 --> 1:43:51.559 It's a hard question. And if you notice, I don't 1:43:51.600 --> 1:43:56.320 answer it, or you don't, I don't not me personally. Um, 1:43:56.479 --> 1:44:00.120 is there even attention there? Like do you be like 1:44:00.360 --> 1:44:06.080 I love the wild, like the fecundity and blood of 1:44:06.120 --> 1:44:10.680 it all? Right, Um, does that mean you're turning your 1:44:10.720 --> 1:44:13.479 back on this like pastoral history of of of the 1:44:13.680 --> 1:44:21.719 the early Christians, right, And the nineteen eighties and nine ninies, 1:44:22.000 --> 1:44:25.439 feminism reached into theology and women began to want to 1:44:25.439 --> 1:44:28.920 look for their places in Christianity. The problem is Christianity 1:44:28.960 --> 1:44:32.000 is the patriarchal religion, and it had been in patriarchal societies. 1:44:32.360 --> 1:44:33.960 So what they had to do is they had to 1:44:34.000 --> 1:44:37.320 go look, and they went back and they found women 1:44:37.400 --> 1:44:40.559 as best they could, who were influential in their own realms, 1:44:40.720 --> 1:44:43.240 who thought amazing things, and there was this kind of 1:44:43.280 --> 1:44:48.600 revisionist history. As a hunter and I read a religion 1:44:48.880 --> 1:44:53.680 that's based upon agriculture, domestication and pastors, I had to 1:44:53.760 --> 1:44:56.120 do that and kind of go back and try and 1:44:56.200 --> 1:45:00.799 find those spots because it's a minority perspective at least today, 1:45:00.840 --> 1:45:03.080 and I think it always has been, except in America. 1:45:03.600 --> 1:45:06.360 If you want to argue, basically during the mid nineteenth century, 1:45:06.400 --> 1:45:11.120 as we expanded westward, because we've been civilized, an urbanite, 1:45:11.640 --> 1:45:14.120 one could argue at least since the end of the 1:45:14.160 --> 1:45:17.360 medieval period and even then prior to that, when people 1:45:17.439 --> 1:45:20.720 got the hunt officially, of course we're royalty and the nobility, 1:45:20.760 --> 1:45:25.160 so that brief period. I have to look for those 1:45:25.479 --> 1:45:29.120 those answers to the question is this is there a 1:45:29.240 --> 1:45:31.080 tension between my religion or not? And I try and 1:45:31.080 --> 1:45:34.160 find those examples where there's not tension. Because in in 1:45:34.240 --> 1:45:37.000 the book there's a guy that comments, an American observer 1:45:38.200 --> 1:45:42.120 goes out to the edge, okay, the land of Boone 1:45:43.040 --> 1:45:45.479 and points out that man, guys that get out on 1:45:45.520 --> 1:45:53.559 the edge morally like, in a religious sense, they fall apart. Yeah, 1:45:53.600 --> 1:45:56.200 that was these guys that flirt with the flirt with 1:45:56.240 --> 1:45:59.240 the wilderness. The Puritans didn't like that. Puritans are agricultural. 1:45:59.640 --> 1:46:01.600 Let's just store the forest, right, burn the tree so 1:46:01.640 --> 1:46:05.040 we can have great agricultural land. Hunters were always problematic. 1:46:05.160 --> 1:46:07.680 They weren't in church on Sunday. They hung out with 1:46:07.680 --> 1:46:10.639 the Native Americans. They were always on the edge. They 1:46:10.640 --> 1:46:15.320 didn't come, uh, confine themselves to behavior that society approved of. 1:46:16.680 --> 1:46:19.479 Does does that mean that they could be not Christian? 1:46:22.200 --> 1:46:24.479 It depends how Christian was interpreted at the time. You 1:46:24.560 --> 1:46:26.720 ment being on church on Sunday, well, little house on 1:46:26.760 --> 1:46:30.560 the prayer there, damn sure, Christian, there's a there's the 1:46:30.600 --> 1:46:33.160 thing I mentioned. I feel like I talked about this 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:35.000 in my Buffalo book, but I can't remember. And it's 1:46:35.000 --> 1:46:38.800 a letter when So, when the conquisators are in the 1:46:38.880 --> 1:46:44.160 American Southwest and they're, you know, subjugating Native Americans and 1:46:44.200 --> 1:46:46.439 trying to introduce them to like how you're supposed to be, 1:46:47.479 --> 1:46:52.120 someone writes back a letter to Spain complaining about the hunters, 1:46:53.200 --> 1:46:56.240 saying like, I don't get it. We've given them livestock, 1:46:56.640 --> 1:47:00.240 We've given them home, we taught them how to farm. 1:47:00.320 --> 1:47:04.040 They have all the stuff here, like, all the components 1:47:04.080 --> 1:47:09.200 are in place. But these people get wind overheard of 1:47:09.240 --> 1:47:13.439 Buffalo somewhere and they are gone, and it doesn't make 1:47:13.520 --> 1:47:16.680 any sense. It's almost like they want to be doing this. 1:47:19.360 --> 1:47:23.000 We've eliminated the need, so why if you can go 1:47:23.080 --> 1:47:27.360 buy beef at your corner store. They're like, what was 1:47:27.520 --> 1:47:30.160 what is the allure? What exactly is the problem with 1:47:30.200 --> 1:47:34.360 you people? And again I think that most anyone who's 1:47:34.400 --> 1:47:41.240 hunted and is again reflective they're looking at things, would 1:47:41.360 --> 1:47:45.320 argue that there's so much more than the acquisition of meat. 1:47:45.360 --> 1:47:49.000 And hunting. And I think some would argue that it's 1:47:49.000 --> 1:47:52.680 a religious experience. Now by religious, I don't mean like 1:47:52.760 --> 1:47:54.640 you you know, it's it's like going to church and 1:47:54.640 --> 1:47:59.400 at the homily. But in that in that moment of 1:47:59.560 --> 1:48:03.479 again pursuit the shot, the death and it may not 1:48:03.560 --> 1:48:06.280 be a prompt death, but hopefully were short in humane, 1:48:06.680 --> 1:48:09.080 that there is a sense of something greater than you, 1:48:09.960 --> 1:48:13.840 a power that's more powerful than you, a greater than 1:48:13.960 --> 1:48:20.560 human reality. And if you encounter that, you want to 1:48:20.680 --> 1:48:25.639 encounter it again. As at St. Paul's Cathedral in London 1:48:25.760 --> 1:48:29.000 one time and we were visiting and there was gonna 1:48:29.000 --> 1:48:31.959 be a service that evening and the choir was practicing 1:48:32.000 --> 1:48:34.960 as adults and children, and the place was fairly empty 1:48:36.520 --> 1:48:42.360 and they were practicing, and it was a religious experience. 1:48:42.680 --> 1:48:46.439 I was moved out of myself. What took place. The 1:48:46.560 --> 1:48:51.680 sounds it was, it was intoxicating, it was goose bump lee. 1:48:51.880 --> 1:48:54.639 I don't want to call it. It was something truly manniccent, 1:48:54.880 --> 1:48:58.840 and I wanted to recapture that every single time that's 1:48:58.880 --> 1:49:01.439 a religious experience, it's it's a sense of something greater 1:49:01.520 --> 1:49:04.519 than us. It's a sign. I would argue that there's 1:49:04.560 --> 1:49:09.120 a divine And I think hunters, if they are reflective 1:49:09.360 --> 1:49:12.360 and not just something pumping fists and slapping hands when 1:49:12.400 --> 1:49:16.519 they have success, or even when they fail, when they 1:49:16.600 --> 1:49:22.200 simply surrender themselves to nature, will begin to hopefully access 1:49:22.360 --> 1:49:28.640 that religious experience. So for me, that's addictive. If I 1:49:28.720 --> 1:49:31.040 went to a concert and I thought, man, that was 1:49:31.080 --> 1:49:34.200 the greatest Hi, not from you know, contact, talking about Hi, 1:49:34.560 --> 1:49:37.560 wouldn't I want to go to another concert? If I 1:49:37.640 --> 1:49:39.519 get a sense of the divine? Wouldn't I want to 1:49:39.600 --> 1:49:42.639 do that again? And a reality that you can't access 1:49:42.680 --> 1:49:46.439 by eating murders here or even going to church, because 1:49:46.479 --> 1:49:49.479 doesn't church essentially just try and grab that experience from 1:49:49.520 --> 1:49:52.320 many different types of denominations, and like, let's reproduce it. 1:49:53.120 --> 1:49:56.000 Let's have this music, let's have this coral arrangement, let's 1:49:56.000 --> 1:49:59.439 have this sermon, Let's have the great vaults right above 1:49:59.520 --> 1:50:02.040 us with the man magnificent building that tries to make 1:50:02.160 --> 1:50:05.800 you feel that religious experience. You can't be religious all 1:50:05.840 --> 1:50:08.880 the time, you just can't be. You can't always live 1:50:08.920 --> 1:50:10.880 in it. But hunting, to me is a religious experience. 1:50:11.160 --> 1:50:14.400 Some people starry interrupting. Some people have religious experiences at 1:50:14.680 --> 1:50:21.680 rock concerts. I'm not as a as a whole, but 1:50:21.760 --> 1:50:23.600 again but not from the high. But I feel like 1:50:24.360 --> 1:50:28.439 music can transports you. Sure it can. It can give 1:50:28.479 --> 1:50:31.880 you what you just described exactly what I might get 1:50:31.920 --> 1:50:35.559 when I'm out there on a unsuccessful or successful turkey hunt. 1:50:35.760 --> 1:50:39.519 You know. Yeah, I was listening to Rogan's podcast the 1:50:39.520 --> 1:50:42.200 other day and he had on Howard bloom Who's um 1:50:42.520 --> 1:50:47.639 this fascinating just certifiable genius, and he has tired, he's dead. 1:50:48.400 --> 1:50:54.160 Howard bloom Um specifically has researched these experiences that you 1:50:54.640 --> 1:50:58.320 are speaking of, this religious experience, this greater than you 1:50:58.640 --> 1:51:02.160 moment um, like this cohesion um that can happen in 1:51:02.280 --> 1:51:06.479 mass groups also such as concerts, rock concerts, and how 1:51:06.600 --> 1:51:09.880 they just grab hold of you and create this moment 1:51:09.960 --> 1:51:12.680 you'd like to replicate. Um. You know you saw that 1:51:12.880 --> 1:51:16.439 in you know, certain speeches like he brought up you know, 1:51:16.600 --> 1:51:19.680 Hitler and talking about how the fervor of grabbing that 1:51:19.960 --> 1:51:24.280 that audience, um, and people just get addicted to that experience. 1:51:24.320 --> 1:51:27.519 So absolutely, yeah. And the question is in that case, 1:51:27.600 --> 1:51:32.080 the experience of scapegoading is the experience then something that 1:51:32.200 --> 1:51:34.120 is a valid experience? All Right, so that's where you 1:51:34.120 --> 1:51:38.040 begin to be reflective. Is what I'm doing something that 1:51:38.439 --> 1:51:44.040 is appropriate, is right, is redeeming, is fulfilling, is making 1:51:44.160 --> 1:51:46.960 me in the world. There's a utilitarian proprocious sorts, but 1:51:47.120 --> 1:51:51.799 making us better, making us happy. I think the Christian 1:51:51.880 --> 1:51:54.680 hunter and the hunter in general can make arguments like that, 1:51:54.800 --> 1:51:58.479 but they have to be careful. Um. I think when 1:51:58.520 --> 1:52:02.519 you mentioned how you have to be that reflective, I 1:52:02.640 --> 1:52:05.400 almost see it as achieving like a sense of purity 1:52:05.920 --> 1:52:08.840 to the moment. So I think there is like the 1:52:09.000 --> 1:52:11.560 validity in that. Yeah, I mean you see that in 1:52:11.720 --> 1:52:14.240 some some of them argue. David Peterson's famous for doing 1:52:14.280 --> 1:52:16.679 this right. So there's like hunters, the hunter, the hunter, 1:52:16.760 --> 1:52:19.360 and writer David Peterson exactly. So there's a hunter and 1:52:19.400 --> 1:52:23.240 then there's the right hunter who is reflective. He draws 1:52:23.320 --> 1:52:24.800 some he draws a lot of lines. Oh he does. 1:52:24.880 --> 1:52:26.920 And there's a lot of hunters who aren't hunters right. 1:52:27.120 --> 1:52:29.880 Might might just be one and maybe you'm my only 1:52:30.439 --> 1:52:32.280 but that kind of approach, and so you begin to 1:52:32.400 --> 1:52:35.280 draw those lines because you begin to say there is 1:52:35.360 --> 1:52:38.360 a better way, because there's a better way that makes 1:52:38.439 --> 1:52:41.599 you better, the world better, whether it be a traditional 1:52:41.680 --> 1:52:44.479 hunter with a bow, whether you keep seeking the greater 1:52:44.680 --> 1:52:48.280 challenge where you always allow of course, fair chase, you 1:52:48.360 --> 1:52:51.439 always allow the animal out. You only hunt public land 1:52:52.000 --> 1:52:53.800 for me people who have that option. So you find 1:52:53.840 --> 1:52:57.800 the other challenge, that pursuit of again the experience, but 1:52:57.960 --> 1:53:02.720 also something that you think may you better, transforms you 1:53:02.880 --> 1:53:05.560 into the better version of you and hopefully extends that. 1:53:05.680 --> 1:53:10.120 Then that's important. That makes you better than you then 1:53:10.200 --> 1:53:13.240 now right now? Not you better than everyone else? No, no, no, 1:53:13.760 --> 1:53:17.240 And it makes that that makes you a better person 1:53:18.280 --> 1:53:22.439 relative to your own experience right right. All the leopole 1:53:22.439 --> 1:53:24.760 would argue, are you making about it community better? Are 1:53:24.800 --> 1:53:26.439 you making healthy because, by the way, that's gonna have 1:53:26.479 --> 1:53:31.920 repercussions for you down the line. Ethically, are you being okay? 1:53:32.120 --> 1:53:34.840 Are you following fair chase? Are you seeking the good 1:53:34.880 --> 1:53:37.759 of the population, whether it be trimming down the numbers 1:53:38.040 --> 1:53:40.920 or allowing those numbers to recuperate. As a Christian, are 1:53:40.960 --> 1:53:43.960 you doing something that seems to be within the divine 1:53:44.200 --> 1:53:47.720 framework set up? Are you showing appreciation for the life 1:53:47.800 --> 1:53:50.040 that was there? You couldn't make that life, but you 1:53:50.160 --> 1:53:53.280 just took it. Are you showing you appreciation for the 1:53:53.400 --> 1:53:57.160 creator for the founder, if you will, are you recognizing 1:53:57.240 --> 1:54:00.560 the gift that was that animal? Do you continue to 1:54:00.720 --> 1:54:04.400 give sharing? I think so very important. Game dinners I 1:54:04.479 --> 1:54:07.680 think are really pivotal and sacramental events for Christian That's 1:54:07.680 --> 1:54:10.000 an interesting thing that I had never thought of. You 1:54:10.080 --> 1:54:12.719 talked ab up, was like that, there's a sacramental quality 1:54:12.760 --> 1:54:15.040 to hunting, but there's nothing like cooking your own food. 1:54:15.240 --> 1:54:18.680 But there's nothing like cooking it for someone else. And 1:54:18.800 --> 1:54:21.560 if you do it in the context of this is 1:54:21.640 --> 1:54:25.280 a gift from the creator, how much more so, and 1:54:25.400 --> 1:54:28.040 respect the life that was there. I know guys who 1:54:28.040 --> 1:54:29.800 want do taxing me right, they want they want to 1:54:29.800 --> 1:54:32.760 have them out. I disagree with that because I think 1:54:32.840 --> 1:54:34.880 I continue to give life to that experience by telling 1:54:34.960 --> 1:54:38.480 the story. But I understand to respect that because they 1:54:38.600 --> 1:54:42.520 do it out of respect for this beautiful creature. They 1:54:42.720 --> 1:54:47.360 don't choose not to have out of respect. Yeah, there are, 1:54:47.600 --> 1:54:50.520 Um it's silly to me. It's silly to me when 1:54:50.560 --> 1:54:52.200 someone's like, oh, I leave the antlers in the woods, 1:54:52.200 --> 1:54:55.320 because I'm like, but why not appreciate the whole thing? Exactly? 1:54:55.400 --> 1:54:57.760 But here's this thing that you could always have, right, 1:54:58.080 --> 1:55:02.240 But remember, But like I'm open, I don't agree with it, 1:55:02.440 --> 1:55:04.720 but I think that people arrive at these decisions in 1:55:04.760 --> 1:55:08.120 the way that that come from meaning and come from 1:55:08.200 --> 1:55:10.960 someplace honest. So whether I look at some of these 1:55:11.160 --> 1:55:15.360 things that people do um in order to acknowledge the 1:55:15.440 --> 1:55:19.960 importance of what happened does not light right. And people 1:55:20.040 --> 1:55:24.000 come up with these these personal ceremonies, um, a lot 1:55:24.080 --> 1:55:27.080 of them I look on like not for me, but 1:55:27.240 --> 1:55:29.960 I'm glad you did something and I'm glad you arrived 1:55:30.560 --> 1:55:34.520 somewhere because what we both see is it something important 1:55:34.600 --> 1:55:43.520 is happening here. So I understand the motivation. Alright, man, Michelle, 1:55:44.480 --> 1:55:46.480 We're gonna get around and make sure everybody knows what 1:55:46.560 --> 1:55:49.880 the book is. But Michelle, you got any rapper, uppers, concluders, 1:55:50.400 --> 1:55:54.120 goals and thoughts. Oh my gosh, this has been super interesting, 1:55:54.480 --> 1:55:58.600 more questions than answers, and really just I would like 1:55:58.720 --> 1:56:01.000 to just conclude by saying that I can't wait to 1:56:01.040 --> 1:56:06.560 read your book, and you know, really kind of trying 1:56:06.600 --> 1:56:09.640 to wrap my head around, you know, my motivations and 1:56:10.160 --> 1:56:13.080 I've thought a lot about that aspect um my motivations 1:56:13.120 --> 1:56:17.640 for hunting, and um, just what's going to keep me 1:56:17.720 --> 1:56:19.960 getting out there. And I do see a lot of 1:56:20.080 --> 1:56:22.960 alignment with kind of what the message you've shared here today, 1:56:23.320 --> 1:56:28.400 So thank you. M Yeah, I can say a couple 1:56:28.400 --> 1:56:32.120 of things. Uh, what I found what stuck and it 1:56:32.280 --> 1:56:34.320 was early on. There's a lot to take in today, 1:56:34.480 --> 1:56:39.000 but the fact that we've always been marginalized, a marginal group, 1:56:39.640 --> 1:56:43.920 and yeah, so it's kind of like we've been hanging 1:56:44.000 --> 1:56:51.280 on for two thousand, how many thousand years? Well it 1:56:51.280 --> 1:56:53.640 would be like, yeah, like a secular understanding would be 1:56:53.640 --> 1:56:57.600 the agricultural advent of the agriculture. So four thousand b c. 1:56:58.920 --> 1:57:01.560 That's when we again have Neil Thick agriculture. Since then, 1:57:02.160 --> 1:57:04.200 hunters have always been on the edge, you've been. Yeah, 1:57:04.600 --> 1:57:10.400 So for Harvard, Harvard long you define human history, it 1:57:10.600 --> 1:57:14.480 was strictly hunter gatherer cultures. And then all of a sudden, 1:57:14.560 --> 1:57:17.560 some guys like man, you know that grass that we're 1:57:17.560 --> 1:57:20.080 always bringing home and then we like eat the grass 1:57:20.240 --> 1:57:23.320 and then we go defecate down in the creek bed, 1:57:23.480 --> 1:57:25.840 and now that grass has grown, Dude, I'm telling you, look, 1:57:25.880 --> 1:57:27.800 there's a lot more there than there is everywhere else. 1:57:28.200 --> 1:57:30.200 The mint someone made that connection was the beginning of 1:57:30.240 --> 1:57:34.000 the end man, or you know that deer I found 1:57:34.000 --> 1:57:36.000 and brought home. We'll check it out. He's still here 1:57:36.040 --> 1:57:39.120 and had a baby and he's still hanging around. But 1:57:39.200 --> 1:57:41.760 I just feel like it's it's relevant to today because 1:57:41.800 --> 1:57:44.720 we have this conversation and it seems like there's this 1:57:45.000 --> 1:57:47.520 these fanning of the flames. Is like it's the end 1:57:47.760 --> 1:57:51.600 because we're pushed to the But it's true, it's there, right. 1:57:51.680 --> 1:57:53.200 I think people have been saying that for so long. 1:57:53.200 --> 1:57:56.200 I'm sure, but what I'm what I'm saying is they've 1:57:56.200 --> 1:57:57.880 been saying it for so long because it's the truth. 1:57:57.960 --> 1:58:01.040 And maybe that's just because that's where we're this group 1:58:01.120 --> 1:58:03.840 is supposed to be and it's always has been. Yeah, 1:58:03.880 --> 1:58:10.280 oh yeah, sure, so it's fine. There's nothing to worry 1:58:10.280 --> 1:58:13.720 about because we've been to ten percent for ten thousand years. 1:58:15.640 --> 1:58:18.840 I think like like the story of I've said, I 1:58:18.920 --> 1:58:22.040 thought that the story of Western civilization could be interpreted 1:58:22.080 --> 1:58:25.839 as a story of the gradual depersonal the the gradual 1:58:26.040 --> 1:58:30.880 de personalization of your food. Um, but yeah, I know 1:58:30.920 --> 1:58:36.920 what you're saying. They had it's been Yeah, it's a slow, 1:58:37.320 --> 1:58:42.000 seemingly never ending death. But yeah, but it's maybe it's 1:58:42.040 --> 1:58:45.080 not that. Maybe it's just like that's our place. Just 1:58:45.440 --> 1:58:48.320 it seems like it's seems to be always died. But 1:58:48.360 --> 1:58:51.360 that means something's gonna adapt. We adapted to the life 1:58:51.360 --> 1:58:54.120 of our frontier right by eighteen ninety Frontiers Gone Right 1:58:54.120 --> 1:58:57.920 in America. Alistair Drey he died unfortunately just after the 1:58:57.920 --> 1:59:01.920 book came out. He was from Scotland and he would 1:59:01.960 --> 1:59:06.040 go shooting, uh, Professor Sterling. But his type of hunting 1:59:06.080 --> 1:59:07.800 is he'd send me pictures of him and the guys. 1:59:08.240 --> 1:59:10.640 Was radically different than my type of hunting when I 1:59:10.680 --> 1:59:12.320 sent him pictures from me from Texas. But he was 1:59:12.360 --> 1:59:16.920 still hunting even with the restrictions in Britain and all 1:59:16.960 --> 1:59:19.920 that regarding firearms, and that they still found a way 1:59:21.280 --> 1:59:25.240 for his dogs for shooting birds, etcetera. Definitely on the 1:59:25.440 --> 1:59:29.600 edge at least of society, if not physically on the edge. Yeah. 1:59:29.680 --> 1:59:34.800 I think that the salvation or the path forward um 1:59:35.800 --> 1:59:41.280 was clearly articulated as long ago as it began to 1:59:41.360 --> 1:59:46.320 be articulated by Roosevelt. It was clarified and beautifully articulated 1:59:46.360 --> 1:59:54.960 by Leopold of what um, of what role this this 1:59:55.600 --> 1:59:58.960 discipline will have in the future. I just don't know 1:59:59.080 --> 2:00:02.080 that hunting will as democratic as it is so in Britain. 2:00:02.360 --> 2:00:06.480 Wild pigs, but who gets at the professional hunters? The 2:00:06.600 --> 2:00:10.360 hunt for cities, etcetera, hunt at night, suppressors night vision. 2:00:10.640 --> 2:00:13.800 So it'll still be hunters. But the question is what 2:00:14.080 --> 2:00:17.360 will be the population of those hunters. Yeah, that's a 2:00:17.400 --> 2:00:20.160 battle of the war. That's that's a portion of the 2:00:20.240 --> 2:00:22.120 war that will need to be fought. I don't mean 2:00:22.160 --> 2:00:25.680 to get to marshal and start using a bunch of marshals. Okay, 2:00:25.960 --> 2:00:30.240 here's my concluder. You are you good on concluders? Uh? 2:00:31.040 --> 2:00:34.680 I understand. I feel that there should be a law 2:00:35.760 --> 2:00:43.240 the academics write two books simultaneously. Okay, okay, while you 2:00:43.360 --> 2:00:46.480 were writing this book, working on this book, I feel 2:00:46.520 --> 2:00:52.840 that you should have simultaneously written a popular book. Now, 2:00:52.920 --> 2:00:56.040 my friend Dan Flores spent his whole life writing academic books. 2:00:56.520 --> 2:01:00.200 Then he retired, and now he's taking all of that 2:01:00.320 --> 2:01:04.960 wonderful information that he learned through his discipline and he's 2:01:05.000 --> 2:01:08.920 now saying to the guy in the bar, Hey, buddy, 2:01:09.280 --> 2:01:12.800 here's what I've been talking about. Here's all of these 2:01:12.920 --> 2:01:15.440 ideas I've been wrestling with, and I'm just gonna lay 2:01:15.480 --> 2:01:18.920 it out for you like a guy talking to an 2:01:19.000 --> 2:01:29.960 interested party. So do do you envision taking this and 2:01:31.720 --> 2:01:34.840 these ideas and just putting them out in a way 2:01:34.920 --> 2:01:37.920 that's that's and this is not a criticism, but in 2:01:38.000 --> 2:01:42.640 the way that's more accessible to the layman um or 2:01:42.760 --> 2:01:46.480 can't you because of your profession? Uh? No, it's possible. Uh. 2:01:48.240 --> 2:01:50.600 You know, I teach it a position where I am 2:01:50.680 --> 2:01:54.000 a professional teacher, so I teach four classes at least 2:01:54.040 --> 2:01:56.160 a semester. So it's hard to do research at all 2:01:56.520 --> 2:01:59.120 because because you do all kinds of research. Yeah, but 2:01:59.440 --> 2:02:02.120 no one's a word to mean my institution doesn't support me, Okay, 2:02:02.760 --> 2:02:04.560 So I do this on my own, so it's hard 2:02:04.640 --> 2:02:07.120 to do that. Right now, I'm working on a book 2:02:07.160 --> 2:02:10.320 for Texas A and M Press, a History of Hunting 2:02:10.320 --> 2:02:12.640 in Texas. That's going to be an academic book, but 2:02:12.680 --> 2:02:14.040 I do want to try and make it and I 2:02:14.160 --> 2:02:16.880 want some people understand the distinction here. And when you're 2:02:16.880 --> 2:02:20.360 writing an academic book, you have to be very forthright, 2:02:21.280 --> 2:02:25.800 absolutely transparent about where this information is from, and being 2:02:26.280 --> 2:02:33.440 very transparent about biases, and just very open to both sides, 2:02:33.520 --> 2:02:37.760 looking at everything right right in a popular book. You 2:02:37.760 --> 2:02:40.440 can be like, okay, WRONGNA cut the chase here and 2:02:40.560 --> 2:02:42.480 just give you kind of like, here's here's my view 2:02:42.560 --> 2:02:45.280 of Starr. There's here's my view of how this is going. 2:02:45.400 --> 2:02:49.760 I'd love to do that. I'm not there right now, maybe, 2:02:50.120 --> 2:02:53.960 but I don't even know. Like so, I wasn't saying 2:02:54.000 --> 2:02:56.720 that you should want to do that. I'm asking like, 2:02:57.160 --> 2:02:58.880 do you want to do that? Do you think you 2:02:58.920 --> 2:03:03.200 will someday do that? And I'm totally cool if you 2:03:03.240 --> 2:03:05.520 just say no, I don't really I think I'd like 2:03:05.640 --> 2:03:07.920 to h This is not anything I intend to do. 2:03:08.080 --> 2:03:10.320 This is not my in theory, my academic discipline. This 2:03:10.480 --> 2:03:13.200 was just a hair brained idea that took ten years 2:03:13.720 --> 2:03:17.200 to finally develop. Get all these people on board, right, essays, 2:03:17.240 --> 2:03:19.760 many of them didn't write about history from me about hunting, 2:03:20.280 --> 2:03:22.560 but get them to think about this that it took 2:03:22.680 --> 2:03:25.040 so much energy. Would have been easier just for me 2:03:25.120 --> 2:03:28.920 to write it myself. Yeah, but I wouldn't have I 2:03:28.920 --> 2:03:31.440 wouldn't have all these voices. Lord, I don't know if 2:03:31.480 --> 2:03:35.960 I'll ever added another book. Um, it is hard. It's 2:03:36.000 --> 2:03:39.960 hard for me though, because I haven't fully formulated my ideas. Essentially, 2:03:39.960 --> 2:03:42.520 what I need to do is mature. I need to 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:45.560 mature another ten years or so. I need to figure 2:03:45.560 --> 2:03:48.040 out again who I am, and just like we see 2:03:48.120 --> 2:03:51.720 hunters mature themselves where you've seen these studies, how they 2:03:51.800 --> 2:03:54.040 mature to the age of basically, give me a gun, 2:03:54.080 --> 2:03:56.560 I'll kill anything that moves if it's brown. It's down 2:03:57.040 --> 2:03:59.720 to the trophy hunter, perhaps the one who seeks the 2:03:59.800 --> 2:04:02.640 ever increasing challenges to find, the one who's really only 2:04:02.720 --> 2:04:06.160 looking to just be with others, to hang out at camp. 2:04:06.240 --> 2:04:09.320 We met day. We spent some time with one of 2:04:09.360 --> 2:04:12.880 those guys who passed through Hey, the other side, and 2:04:13.000 --> 2:04:16.400 he was a hunter who does not hunt, but celebs. 2:04:17.080 --> 2:04:20.040 If you ask him what he is, he's honored. Only 2:04:20.120 --> 2:04:22.400 later do you realize, well, I don't actually hunt anymore. 2:04:23.480 --> 2:04:25.560 But yeah, I can tell you what I think about 2:04:25.600 --> 2:04:27.280 from time I wake up to the time I go 2:04:27.360 --> 2:04:29.440 to bed. Exactly. I think I need to mature a 2:04:29.440 --> 2:04:32.560 little bit. I have to come I need to come 2:04:32.560 --> 2:04:34.520 to grips with who I am and what I actually 2:04:34.680 --> 2:04:37.240 think before I write that book. That's going to be 2:04:37.320 --> 2:04:40.560 more of an apology, not like, excuse me, but this 2:04:40.840 --> 2:04:44.400 is what I believe an argument but from maybe not 2:04:44.480 --> 2:04:47.680 from an academic perspective, but from the heart. But instead 2:04:47.720 --> 2:04:49.480 of saying to the reader, hey man, here's a whole 2:04:49.520 --> 2:04:53.680 bunch of things you could believe. Here's some questions that 2:04:53.760 --> 2:04:56.800 you should answer, but I'm not gonna answer for you. Yeah, 2:04:57.160 --> 2:05:03.840 so give me a decade. Okay, now you go to me. 2:05:04.600 --> 2:05:09.400 My goal for writing this book was to simply encourage 2:05:09.480 --> 2:05:16.080 people to think and to create a conversation, because the 2:05:16.120 --> 2:05:18.720 conversation has essentially been so far people who said hunting 2:05:18.800 --> 2:05:21.960 is bad and leave me alone, hunting is just fine. 2:05:22.000 --> 2:05:26.280 God's that is okay if they thought about it as 2:05:26.360 --> 2:05:29.840 I see the decline of hunting, at least in participation. 2:05:30.840 --> 2:05:34.120 It bothers me because I think it's so important. It's 2:05:34.160 --> 2:05:39.040 who I am, perhaps too much, but it's who I am, 2:05:39.800 --> 2:05:43.360 and for me, it's my tribe. But my tribe doesn't 2:05:43.400 --> 2:05:47.160 have an identity, and I want the tribe to come 2:05:47.240 --> 2:05:51.760 to formulate an identity. Now, not everybody's a Christian hunter 2:05:51.880 --> 2:05:54.560 or religious hunter, but I think that we all could 2:05:54.680 --> 2:05:58.080 experience a kind of religious element to hunting. I think 2:05:58.120 --> 2:05:59.360 it's there, And like I ask you to believe what 2:05:59.400 --> 2:06:03.280 I believe, Sure what I do, but my goal is, 2:06:03.600 --> 2:06:07.600 and my hope is the hunters will simply begin to think, 2:06:08.800 --> 2:06:11.960 who am I, what am I doing? Why am I 2:06:12.080 --> 2:06:16.120 doing it? And in the process of thinking and reflecting, 2:06:17.280 --> 2:06:23.800 they'll tell their stories with greater honesty and with greater enthusiasm. 2:06:24.160 --> 2:06:27.560 That next generation will be fired up. That will create 2:06:27.720 --> 2:06:32.600 new generations of hunters who tap into the wonder and 2:06:32.760 --> 2:06:36.240 all it's splendor and frustration that is hunting, and that 2:06:36.440 --> 2:06:39.880 out of all of that will come another generation of 2:06:39.960 --> 2:06:44.440 hunters who think, who celebrate um and I think that 2:06:44.560 --> 2:06:48.080 we've been missing that for various reasons, partially because hunters 2:06:48.160 --> 2:06:52.280 haven't had to explain themselves, and now they do so. 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:56.520 A reflective generation of hunters, people who recognize the beauty 2:06:56.560 --> 2:06:58.600 and the magnificence that we still get to play in, 2:06:59.520 --> 2:07:02.440 and that in process of play we find out something 2:07:02.480 --> 2:07:05.960 about ourselves, about the world around us, and even perhaps 2:07:06.040 --> 2:07:11.720 about our God, okay God nim Rod and the world. 2:07:13.280 --> 2:07:18.360 Exploring Christian perspectives on sport hunting Bracy V. Hill the 2:07:18.480 --> 2:07:23.480 second and Uh, if you want to check this out, 2:07:23.520 --> 2:07:25.040 how do they what? What's the best way to find it? 2:07:25.640 --> 2:07:28.400 The most beneficial to you? You know it? I'm probably 2:07:28.440 --> 2:07:30.280 gonna get very few royalties out of this. So you 2:07:30.360 --> 2:07:33.920 can get it on Amazon, Books, Barnes and Noble, most 2:07:34.080 --> 2:07:39.640 any type of mostly online. I haven't actually gone it's 2:07:39.680 --> 2:07:41.120 Barnes and Noble to see if it's on the shelf, 2:07:41.920 --> 2:07:44.680 but I do see that they occasionally lose, like nine, 2:07:44.920 --> 2:07:50.720 nine left, three left, two left, we're back, so somebody's finding. Yeah, 2:07:51.160 --> 2:07:53.160 that's great man. Thank you, thank you for coming on, 2:07:53.320 --> 2:07:55.120 Thank you for this opportunity. I thoroughly enjoyed it.