1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: can't predict anything, all right, Bracy V. Hill. The second, 4 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna role play for a minute. You're you're at 5 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: a party and you're you're up at the punch bowl 6 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: and someone comes up and they say, no, what do 7 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: you what do you do for a living? And you 8 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: tell him what I say, I'm a history professor, kind 9 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: of okay to continue role playing. Then I'll be Then 10 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: I'll say I'm I'm your interlockate tour at this party. 11 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: I say, well, what like what? And I go, you know, 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: I did my dissertation on British rational religion in the 13 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: late seventeenth century and early eighteenth century, but I teach 14 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: American hunting history and particularly how it intersects with religion. 15 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm tracking what most people don't at that point in time. 16 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: So they've gone up there, so my my character has 17 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: now left. They answered the question I could also is 18 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: they go hunting? And I say yeah, and they go hunting. Yeah, 19 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot to study there. And I started going 20 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: off into my spiel about how that hunting culture, particularly 21 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: in America has transformed over centuries, adapted itself to various 22 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: peoples and animals that have been present on the continent. Uh, 23 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: and that it continues to change even to today. And 24 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: so what I do is I look at how American 25 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: culture of hunting, really cultures of hunting have changed throughout 26 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: the years. And I actually teach classes at my university 27 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: on the history of hunting, in which case, well I 28 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: teach to I teach a senior level of course that 29 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: is nominally called the History of Hunting in North America. 30 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: And then I teach you you know that I've got, 31 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, this great subtitle that no one ever prints. Uh, 32 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,399 Speaker 1: you know, it's it says something about from basically from 33 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: survival to controversy. Uh. And then I teach a freshman 34 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: only version, which is it's a they walk in the door, 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: it's called a freshman Academic seminar, and they get me 36 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: and I don't even get to pitch the class to them. 37 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: They they sign up for a doing orientation, so I 38 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: don't know who's selling it, but they walk in and 39 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: we do a freshman version of it. So it kind 40 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: of teaches them how to write, etcetera. But they engage 41 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: the idea of that there's a history of this cultural 42 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: phenomena in America. They get credit for their American history 43 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: for it. But this is great, right um. And you know, 44 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: if I get a chance to tell them first aimsod 45 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: you know, yes, we're gonna watch Bambi alright, and we're 46 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: gonna watch a little Ted Nugent because I have to 47 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: our roll some Doug dynasty And that's my in a 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: way of trying to bring him in something that they 49 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: may have seen before. I said that this is real history. 50 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: We're gonna look at primary sources, gonna people's experiences. Uh 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: and in particular because of my focus, we're gonna at 52 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: least look at how religion plays into this, from Paleo Indians, 53 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: Native American tribes, the arrival of Puritans, don't forget the 54 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: Spanish already here too, write the French as well, and 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: how that plays out as particularly Anglo Americans sweep westward 56 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: across the continent and encounter new people's, new animals, economics, 57 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: and how all plays together. Now, I'm not sure that 58 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: actually fulfill that, and of course the semester, but that's 59 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: my grand goal. That's the that's the ambitious grand ambitious game. 60 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: Would you mind there's a lot I'm already backed up 61 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: in my mind, but real quick, can you can you 62 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: tell people? I don't think we've ever talked about this before. 63 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: Can you explain a people the difference between the primary 64 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: and secondary resources. That's a great question. Um. So, a 65 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: primary source is material and it used to be just texts. 66 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: But historians are not opening their minds to looking at 67 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: things more than this text we talked about like a 68 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: material culture, so we'll look at things. But an artifact 69 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: something that humans have modified, they've created from a particular 70 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: time period, and that's the time period that we're investigating. 71 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: That's a primary source. So a primary source can be 72 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: a diary entry from eight and I'm studying eight. A 73 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: primary source could be a computer if I were studying 74 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: a particular period where that computer was relevant. Uh So, 75 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: primary sources are in some ways limitless, but not really 76 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: because primary sources have a tency to disappear, right so 77 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: paper hesitency to wrot, mold, disappear. Would if you're studying 78 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: paleon Indian cultures, you don't find their their their homes 79 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: that are constructed of wood. What you find, at best 80 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: is the hollow that was left by the post, right, 81 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: that's filled in with a different type of We perceive 82 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: it as a history that's written in rock exactly because 83 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: everything else is gone. So most of what we find 84 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: in our our our blade technology, right, so your Clovis technology, etcetera, 85 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: folds and stuff like that, and that stuff has intensity 86 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: to last. So that's a primary resource. But so is 87 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: UH Patagonia, coats, um or textbooks. If I'm studying a 88 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: period and those are resources that tell me something about 89 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: that culture of that time period, etcetera, that's a primary source. 90 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: So primary sources, uh can be stories that were told 91 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: and recorded, whether they were written down or recorded literally 92 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: on various types of technology. So someday this conversation could 93 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: be a primary sources primary sources. It's exactly right now, 94 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: it's so what if loose the Clark journals, primary sources, um, 95 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: undaunted courage secondary source? Right, well, secondary secondary source is 96 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: uh a Julian. We take about the secondary source as 97 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: a secondary history, secondary source for history. So that what 98 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: happens is it's where the historian intentionally or unintentionally analyze 99 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: is material that's in front of them, and so she 100 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: she has these various types of data in front of 101 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: it that are primary sources, and she analyzes them, determines 102 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: their importance, and in most cases weaves them into a narrative. 103 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: Now many times the historian then will not just use 104 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: primary sources, but she'll also use secondary sources. So if 105 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: I were writing a history of hunting, which I'm supposed 106 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: to be doing right now front undisclosed University Press, I 107 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: hope to finish it a history of hunting of U 108 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: culture in Texas, then I would look to histories of Texas. 109 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: That's a secondary source. But that's useful to me as 110 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: I construct my narrative of hunting cultures in the state 111 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: of Texas and the Regian Texas. But I also would 112 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: turn into primary sources as I write my secondary source. 113 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: So the secondary source is this analysis and report, because 114 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: this is what historians do. Historians have to communicate. That's 115 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: what we do. We communicate by speaking, we communicate our 116 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: writing um and if we fail in that venture, of course, 117 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: then we failed to as a historian. But the historian 118 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: distills places importance on certain data ignores others. It's science 119 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: and art. The art is the idea that I have 120 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: to communicate to you whatever my audience is that I perceive, 121 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: I communicate to you what I think is important about 122 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: this period. And I take many times in all this 123 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: various data that doesn't seem to fit together, and I 124 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: make a coherent, I hope story for you to understand 125 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: the past. But of course ignore other stuff too, and 126 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: that's where scientifically I have to be very careful. I'll 127 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: go into archives, I look at paintings, Um, I look 128 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: at guns. Although us last summer I spent time in 129 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: a museum and a fellowship just basically mess around with 130 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: knives and guns, particularly from Texas in the nineties. Entry. 131 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: It was fun, it was great. But I've got to 132 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: give meaning to that thing. So we tell the story. Um, 133 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: and that's that secondary source, whether I'm telling you about 134 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: it myself or I'm writing it and presenting it to 135 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: you as an audience. Okay, now can you humor from 136 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: me me from it? Like while I have you here? Yea, 137 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: there's there's three trying to think there's a few areas 138 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: that in past episodes we've touched on matters of a 139 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: biblical nature, didn't have the expertise. Okay, so we should 140 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: say that, right. So my expertise is right. This is 141 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: where I like pull out my union card. So I 142 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: am a historian, but I have a master's degree in theology, 143 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: and I have a PhD in the religion. So for 144 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: the audience, who's going So why are they asking his 145 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: story and about the Bible. I'm still not the best source, 146 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: but in theory, someone educated me on these things to 147 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: a degree in the past. Alright, this, I'm gonna ask 148 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: you some trust me up questions. I'm gonna ask you 149 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: some low level because this is just cleaning up some 150 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: messes we've made in past episodes. And I want as 151 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: a way to introduce you and just to bring a 152 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:12,719 Speaker 1: thing up because we got a lot of feedback from 153 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: this recently. Okay. We have a friend that we work with, 154 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon, and Mark Kenyon has been trying to kill 155 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: the same deer for years, okay, And I was explaining 156 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: to him one day that he was gonna have a 157 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: saul on the way to Damascus moment where he saw 158 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: the light and decided to not shoot this deer. After all, 159 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: I was predicting that this would happen, And I said, 160 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: I can't remember if it's if the dude's name was 161 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: Paul or Saul, and a lot of people wrote in 162 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: to say, what, Yes, it's a tricky question. It's the 163 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: same guy. Okay, it's the same guy. So if you 164 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: look at the So the story takes place in the 165 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: Book of Acts, which it's a history, by the way, 166 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: it's a two part history. So the Book of Luke, 167 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: which you may have heard of the Gospel Luke and 168 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: the Book of Acts are one book. It's just in 169 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: two parts. So you can tell because the intro it says, 170 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: dear theophilis in the beginning of Luke, that's a guy's 171 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: name like lover of God. And we don't know if 172 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: that's really a guy or if it's just this, you know, 173 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: this character he is writing out there for the because 174 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: he says, basically, Luke. The writer of Luke says, so 175 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: you know that there's been these other histories written about 176 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: our faith, but it's I'm paraphrasing these they this they're 177 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: a mess, he said. So I've done is I've tried 178 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: to put together for you an orderly history. So that's 179 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: his intro at the beginning of Luke, and then you 180 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: get to Acts, and actually chapter one says dear theophilis 181 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: part two. All right, now, I'm gonna tell you about 182 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: what happens after Jesus goes. Now, he starts with the 183 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: resurrected Jesus and acts number one. And then of course 184 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: Jesus goes. You know, he's gone. Angels go what are 185 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: you doing here? And he lays out They lay out 186 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: the thesis. They say, basically, why are you still standing here? 187 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: Basically go tell the message from Jerusalem to the ends 188 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: of the earth, and gives a lot of other place 189 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: names in there. And so he lays his thesis out 190 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: number one. I'm gonna tell you about Jesus, and we're 191 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: gonna do an orderly fashion. Is the basis your faith, 192 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: Luke number Luke, Chapter one, Acts Chapter one. You say, 193 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: but why aren't they next to each other? Don't ask 194 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: me about the cannon. Alright, but the canon is a mess. 195 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: But anyhow, they separated in the stick all the little 196 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: biographies about Jesus together, and they separated these two books. 197 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: So the second chapter, if you're the second part of 198 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: this history by this writer, which is historically, or i said, 199 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: traditionally called Luke, describes the story of really kind of 200 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: two major characters in the formation of the early Christian Church. 201 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: The first is Peter. So Peter gets like the first 202 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: couple of chapters, and then they shifted this guy named Saul, 203 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: all right, a great persecutor, great persecutor. He's he's he's 204 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: born in southern Asia minor Turkey, Tarsus. Uh. He comes 205 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: to get educated in Judea. So he's a he's a 206 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: pharisee's he's a bright guy, trained at the best school, 207 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: if you will. All right, So he's a persecutor. The 208 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: early Christians famously overseas, Oh man, you're making me pull 209 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: the stuff in the back of it. He oversees the 210 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: martindom of Stephen. Right, Okay, what's my name? Right? There 211 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: you go. It wasn't for him, I wouldn't be named me. 212 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: There you go. Yeah. So in or out Damascus, which 213 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: is the capital of Syria, Soul has his experience. The 214 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: resurrected Christ somehow speaks to him and calls him Saul, Soul, 215 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: why do you persecute blinds in basically knocks him off 216 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: his ass or blinds him for the rest of his life. 217 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no, no no no, to be 218 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: a miracle. Alright, So so I don't know if he's 219 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: on an ass or a horse anyhow, knocks him a right, 220 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: So he's he's blinded, and he goes in and there's 221 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: a fellow who's part of the Christian community who basically 222 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: praise for him, and he's blind for a little bit 223 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: and then his side his gang. So there's a miracle. 224 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: So he gets this divine this uh, the christophany, what 225 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: if you wanna call it, this vision of the Christ 226 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: are the voice of the Christ, his appearance. And this 227 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: is how Paul later on we'll talk about his names. 228 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: This is how he validates he was an apostle because 229 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: while the other guys that there were twelve, right, they 230 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: were close, one of them apparently got it wrong. Right. 231 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: So the eleven that the close associates of Jesus, Uh, 232 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: they're the apostles. They're called their commissioned to go out there. 233 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of others who were as well. 234 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: But Paul says, hey, Jesus called me himself, all right. 235 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: If you go through the Book of Acts, as the 236 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: writer Luke, let's just call him, is working through his 237 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: thesis of showing how the Christians take the message from 238 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: Jerusalem to Judea to Samarian, to the ends of the earth. 239 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: He picks it up with Paul, who goes by Saul. 240 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: But Saul uses the name Saul and Paul back and forth. Actually, 241 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: the end of Acts, he still calls himself Saul. He 242 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: tells the story that Jesus appears to him and calls 243 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: him Soul. It's Luke as he tells his story that 244 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: shifts to Paul. In fact, once Paul leaves the area 245 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: of Jerusalem, Luke subtly shifts from Seul to Paul. Now 246 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: here's my theory on why Saul is a Hebrew name. 247 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: It's the first king of Israel, right the United Kingdom 248 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: there of Israel, uh, and that's a good Hebrew name. 249 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: But he was born in Asia Minor, in a Roman city, 250 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: and that's why he has Roman citizenship. Now he comes 251 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: to jude all that kind of stuff, but he has 252 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: a Roman name. So Paul or Paulus is his Latin name, 253 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: and so he goes by Paul, just like you would 254 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: go by Soul. Just like there are other characters in 255 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: the New Testament, like this guy named um Thomas who's 256 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: also known as Didimus the Twin. So there's people who 257 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: have multiple names. So what you see is the shift 258 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: from Saul to Paul in the Book of Acts to 259 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: fit the historians thesis. So as he leaves the center 260 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: of Judaism and moves into the gentile, the world of 261 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: the Goyem, the gret a Roman world, he shifts to 262 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: Paul to show how Paul is taking the Gospel to 263 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: the ends of the area. As a long answer, that's good, 264 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: I liked it. Can move on to the next part. 265 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: My next question, blue laws, Oh, just real quick to 266 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: touch on this with your expertise. A guy was pointing 267 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: out that we had something terribly wrong. He says, one, okay, 268 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: all right, let me let me get this right here, 269 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: he says. Here in North Carolina, as Janice might be 270 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: able to tell you, we have recently modified the laws 271 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: for Sunday hunting to be much less restrictive. And to 272 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: the listener, there are states in the American South and 273 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: elsewhere you're not allowed to go hunting on a Sunday, 274 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: although there are still certain prohibitions, especially to your normal 275 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: Sunday morning church service hours. One minor correction to Steve's 276 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: point about the Sabbath is that Sunday isn't really considered 277 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: to be the Sabbath. I was saying the Sabbath right 278 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: for Sunday. Sabbath is just the Hebrew word for seventh 279 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: and corresponds to the Christian account when God arrested on 280 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: the seventh day. It is always Sunday. Christians worship corporately, 281 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: corporately on Sunday and remembrance of Jesus resurrection. Now there 282 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: are plenty of Christians that confuse the two, but nowhere 283 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: does the Bible talk about Sabbath laws, rest from work, 284 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: short distance of travel, et cetera. Applying to Christians on Sunday, 285 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: this guy says, I don't see it why it should 286 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: be mandated as free from all activity. I don't hunt 287 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: on Sunday because that's because I'm at church. Does resonate 288 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: with you at all? All right, So a little bit 289 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: of a number of things going on here, all right. 290 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: First off, there are number of states that do have 291 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: blue laws. Uh. My best friend, his name's Josh. He 292 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: grew up in Pennsylvania, a little place called Enan Valley, Uh, 293 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: and opening a deer season it was like a holiday, 294 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: like a holy day. But from what I gathered from 295 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: the stories he's told, me it was a Monday, because 296 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania you can't hunt deer on Sunday. So there 297 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: are number of states. Yes, okay, so it which is 298 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: interesting because this whole William Penn's experiment. If you're from me, 299 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: he was a Quaker, right, and so Pennsylvania was supposed 300 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: to be a place where freedom of religion took place 301 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: in a unique and in brand new way. You know 302 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: what William Penn wants describing that state, talked about how 303 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: grouse would walk into his house. He had observations about wildlife, 304 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: so that Benjamin Franklin, we should talk about him. He's 305 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: got some weird views snakes anyway. Uh. Blue laws then 306 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: ironically show up in places, and I believe Rhode Island 307 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: which is as well, which is also established on religious freedom. 308 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: I could be wrong with Rhode Island, so we're right 309 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: in and tell me all right, But the point is, 310 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: ironically that as we see the establishment and sometimes in 311 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: places you would expect to see religious freedom and not 312 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: expect to see religious ideas pervaded secular life. For lack 313 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: of a better way of saying it, that's where you 314 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: find it. So there are number states that don't allow 315 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: hunting on Sunday. Why well, there was generally this assumption 316 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: for hundreds of years among Christians that the Sabbath was Sunday. 317 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: But the Sabbath isn't Sunday. The Sabbath is actually Friday night. 318 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: Is when it starts sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. You 319 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: got it right, And that's why that's like when like 320 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: like Jews, Yeah, absolutely, you go to synagogue with Orthodox jewesday. 321 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: That's when they do their honor the Sabbath from sundown 322 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: Friday sundowns not just Orthodox but Reformed Jews as well. 323 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: It's not infrequent we go to synagogue. Uh, the number 324 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: of synagogues actually even in the town where I live, 325 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: but where I've grown up, and it starts on Friday nights. 326 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: It's your Schobat service. So that was the day of rest. 327 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: And where does this come from? There's a couple of 328 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: different hints about it in in in particularly the Penitute 329 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: the first five books of the Hebrew Bible or the 330 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: Old Testament if you want to use that if you're 331 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: Christian first active. But the probably the most interesting one 332 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: is of course the first chapter Genesis one, which lays 333 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: out this creation story and it rolls into early part 334 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: of Genesis too. Um, And do you have these these 335 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: days in which God creates through various means, uh, the world. 336 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: That is that he separates water from land, and he 337 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: puts vegetation, and and then he creates uh, you know, 338 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: he has light and darkness in it as the stellar formations, 339 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: and then he has the birds and the four legged critters, 340 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: and eventually on the sixth day he creates humans right 341 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: along with other things, but humans and all these creations 342 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: are basically good, but the ones with human it's it's 343 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: very good. And then it says on the seventh day 344 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: he rests now again, I'm gonna pull us in back 345 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: of me. But I believe it's in the book of Exodus. 346 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: You have a retelling of this, and it's etological, which 347 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,239 Speaker 1: is a fancy way of saying it's a story that 348 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: has an explanation for why we do what we do. 349 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: And there it's explicit because God sit on the seventh day, 350 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: so we rest as well. Um. And there's two different 351 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 1: ideologies going on there and the two books. But so 352 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: it's established in in the in the Hebrew culture that 353 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: you rested on the seventh day. It was a way 354 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: of essentially, Um, I hate to say it, but mimicking God, 355 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: but in a in a positive fashion. Um. And so 356 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: on the seventh Day you rested, and there were certain 357 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: behaviors you didn't do in the rabbis. Jewish rabbis years 358 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: afterwards continued to comment on this. There's certain things you 359 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing right, probably hunting, working, Um, off top 360 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: of my head, cutting wood. You have sacks, by the way, 361 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 1: on on the Sabbath. That's not work, that's that's okay. Uh, 362 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: that's what I remember hearing in class. That caught my attention. 363 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,479 Speaker 1: I remember that in class. But so certain the fishing, fishing, 364 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: fishing is okay. I don't know. I don't know what. 365 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: To be honest, I don't remember. No state has outlawed 366 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: Sunday fishing or Cinday sacks, I guess. But the point 367 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: is you do have this intriguing extension then of and 368 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: the Christian you say, why Christmas on Sunday? Here's the shift. 369 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: They go back to the Book of Acts. Uh. These 370 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: were Jews that came to believe them that this Jesus 371 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: was the Messiah, the awaited One. Um. And they continue 372 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: to do Jewish things. They still went to the Temple. 373 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: It was there hadn't been destroyed by the Romans in 374 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: the year seventy by the guy named Titus, So it's 375 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: still there. Um and uh. They continue to do but 376 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: they have to figure out who they are though, right. 377 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: So there Jews, but they believe that the Messiah has come. Uh. 378 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: They seemingly still are doing sacrifices in the Temple. They're 379 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: still gathering. But you see in there early in the 380 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: Book of Acts, increasing tension then between these Jews or 381 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: followers of Jesus and Jews that didn't buy into the 382 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: he was of Messiah, until eventually they kicked out of 383 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: the out of the synagogues where they would gather, and 384 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: they're essentially pushed out of the Temple region. And so 385 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: they pick a new day to worship on Sunday. That's 386 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: how that all came about. Yeah, and Christians have turned 387 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: to the Sabbath Sunday not too as again as Christianity 388 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: Christian Yeah, yeah, right now, so you have Seventh Day 389 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: ad ventice for instance, if you're driving them, they follow 390 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: more of a Herbraic code. It's I am a little 391 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: picky choosing right there. Certain things there, for instance, most Sunday, 392 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: i'd ben as I know, or vegetarian, right, um, And 393 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: they have very strict diets, and so they keep many 394 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: of the date of the Seventh Day had been this 395 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: one time for a few days. I was gonna say, 396 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: how did it go? Well, she didn't date Friday night 397 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: to Saturday night. Yeah, and as a meat eater, I 398 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: can't remember. Yeah, right, okay, so it's gonna be a problem. Possibly, so, 399 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: but seven Day. Even so, there's groups of what you 400 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: might consider radical Christianity. She was vegetarian, you're right, but 401 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: it really date. It was like I was. I was, 402 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: I was interested in trying to date her. Yeah, all right, 403 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: so that's where you began to see and you still 404 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: see written that said that particuarly in the nineteenth century 405 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: where you see kind of utopian movements and more radical 406 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: types of Christianity, and even in America go back and 407 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: back to the old ways exactly. But whoever it was 408 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: that said, hey man, we're gonna do some semblance of well, 409 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna like exclude by law the most egregious things 410 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: heavy drinking, hunting. Well, most people were Sunday people who 411 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: were Sunday people, which I mean again, there's a lot 412 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: of states you can't buy hard liquor on Sundays. It's 413 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: the same principle. And then we call those blue laws 414 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, but there's like I guess it's around 415 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: a dozen or so states that still have blue laws 416 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: for hunting. Okay, can you now tell me give me 417 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: the quick wrap on your your your book? All right? 418 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: All right? Is it? Can I still called a Newish book? Yeah? 419 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: It came out in November of two. Yeah, I can 420 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: see that friendly all right, so real quick? Um, the 421 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: books called God Nemerod in the World exploring Christian perspectives 422 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: on sport hunting. It's published by Mercer University Press, which 423 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: has a Sports and Religion series. Yeah, Sports and religious 424 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: and sports and religion like what Yeah, okay, so it's 425 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: a competitive verb. It pulls it two together. So it's 426 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: sports and religion together. Yeah, alright, printed, I don't have 427 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: to yeah. Um, And so they've got books on baseball football. Yeah, 428 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: well there's nothing to write. I don't know. I didn't 429 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: read the book. Yeah, but as you as we learned 430 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: in this book, there's all kinds of ways that hunting 431 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: plays into the Bible. Is not a lot of baseball 432 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: plays into the Bible. It's ridiculous idea. I didn't write 433 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: that book. I did write this. If you have you 434 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: step out the long as show it is what is 435 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: there to be said? Yeah, I don't know. I didn't 436 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: read the book. I didn't realize. I knew that there 437 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: was a lot of hunting in the Bible, yeah, I 438 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: didn't realize how much. And so I started looking at 439 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: this book. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's a lot going 440 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: on there. Um, so real quick. The story of the 441 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: book was I was writing a dissertation and my dissertation 442 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: was looking at radical groups in England and Britain. I 443 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: started out with a law large, which is a group 444 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: in the fourteenth century in England. I ended up losing 445 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: my director from a distant religious group, radical religious. I 446 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: like radical minority religious groups, all right, I just do um. 447 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: And so then I ended up for various reasons, things 448 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: got shifted around. Ended up working with a fellow from 449 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: the University of Storily in Scotland. He was visiting in 450 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: the United States as a distinguished scholar um and we 451 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: we we found a topic that I could study with 452 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: him that fit within his purview. So I started studying 453 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 1: late seventeent century early eighteenth century radical religion we call 454 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: rational religion. It's as a proto Unitarian. People who grew 455 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: up within the Orthodox Christian movement actually were defending it 456 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: against the Anglicans in Britain, and then suddenly came to 457 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: the conclusion that in particularly things like the Trinity were problematic. 458 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: One plus one plus one did not equal one. And 459 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: so they were applying reason in the British Enlightenment to 460 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: the religion of their tradition. As you can well imagine, 461 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: they were soon ostracized by everyone. And so I particularly 462 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: worked on a guy by the name of James Pierce. 463 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: So I'm working with people on the edge um in 464 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. Of course, I'm always for a 465 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 1: diversion because I'm a procrastinator. Suddenly I'm walking with this 466 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: guy across campus and me he's so cool. He's got 467 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: the voice of God right with this British accident with 468 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: the Cambridge. His name is David Bebington, and uh, David 469 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: Bevington's is just fantastic. Uh. And we're walking across campus 470 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: and I mentioned he mentioned he don't go to this 471 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: guy's house for dinner. I said, I know him. Actually, 472 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: my wife and I've been hunting white wing doves there 473 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: and he stops, just stops in the middle campus on 474 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: the sidewalk, and it looks at me and it's like 475 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: he doesn't know what to say. He just we just 476 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: had Thai food. He just invited me to do his distion, 477 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: my dissertation with him, and he looks at me, goes, 478 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: that's that's so French, French, French, he's British, and he's like, 479 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: what doesn't America. Yeah, so and and we just kept 480 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: walking along and I started thinking, all right here I am. 481 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: I'm committed to doing Christian history within two degree with 482 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: things on the edges, but also within Christian community on 483 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: the edges. I thought hunting was okay. I mean, I 484 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: knew there a lot of people didn't hunt, but I 485 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: guess this is a big question. And so I started 486 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: bouncing it around, came up the topic, found a guy 487 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: to kind of work with me who's does sports, uh 488 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: and leisure studies. We proposed I proposed it in particular 489 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: to a number of presses, and their responses was sexy, 490 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: but that ain't gonna sell, and so it didn't go anywhere. 491 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: I finished my dissertation. I didn't want to work on 492 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: my dissertation anymore. I still owe it seven years later 493 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: to the publisher. But I started looking for a diversion. 494 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: And I was in San Francisco and I had this 495 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: idea of you know, about hunting. It's been bouncing back 496 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: in my head to look at it from all kinds 497 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: of different perspectives, from history, uh, from religious, theological, ethical perspectives, 498 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: and clearly I couldn't do them all. So I needed 499 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: other voices. I wanted other people to participate in this, 500 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: but no one's really doing this um and the idea 501 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: was it was? It was? It was nascent, shall we say. 502 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: But I went to the session with this series editor 503 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: of the Sports and Religion series, and Mercer was there 504 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: already talking. Went up after him. I said, I had 505 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: got this idea for this book. You listened to me. 506 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: He said, send me an email. I send him an email. 507 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: He said, see me a proposal, and he said I'll 508 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: take it. So I started creating this book. And that 509 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: is I wanted to write some some some essays myself. 510 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: And there were people that I talked to of the 511 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: last several years that were interested in writing about the 512 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: ethics of hunting, the history of hunting, about why it 513 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: was good while it was bad, how to do it 514 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: better than other ways, but with a particular attention to religion, 515 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: not just to ethics. Be there's a lot of discussion 516 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: of ethics out there, but with a particular attention to 517 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: history of the religion and the current situation of religion, 518 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: particularly Christianity. And I began assembling these this group of 519 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: more than two dozen people. UM. I eventually brought out 520 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: a co editor to talk a little bit about sports, 521 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: and he wasn't four hunting, if you will, and he 522 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: brought in his friend Sean Graves UH to to do 523 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: a kind of anti hunting piece. The main central anti 524 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 1: like a religious based anti hunting and philosophy. It's it's 525 00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: a composite. So if you look at the book, it's 526 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: into parts. The first eleven chapters are descriptive, they're historically descriptive. 527 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: They talk about hunting communities today UH closely associated with religion. UM. 528 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: They go all the way back to the Hebraic tradition 529 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: as an essay front by a guy named Uh Basque 530 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: can at bass hunting buddy of mine UH and also 531 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: a scripture scholar, and we work away through the Middle Ages, 532 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: we work our way to the early modern period, and 533 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: then we work away to the President. And in that 534 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: section with doing oral history, so recording primary sources from 535 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: people who hunted to the last century, analyzing it, making report, 536 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: and then allowing hunters from all types of walks of life. 537 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: UM athletes in particual because of sports and religion, UH, musicians, artists, UH, teachers, academics, 538 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: soldiers all kind of talk about their story, but just 539 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: tell a story, have them right their essay if possible. 540 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: There's a few celebrity hunters that you would see on 541 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: things like the Outdoor Channel. UH, like Ralph since lur 542 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: always been to pronounce his name from Archer's choice. Jason 543 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: Robertson did an essay with him from the dynasty UM 544 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: and to letting them speak. And then the last half 545 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: is from the Ivory Tower. So if you will, the 546 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: first half is about the field and the people who 547 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: are in it, and the last half is people who 548 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: live in the I retire academics who want to tell 549 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: you the hunting is right wrong or this is a 550 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: better way to do it. And then there's a conclusion. 551 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: So the book is a composite of perspectives. Um And 552 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: one would argue from about years of experience. What first 553 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: got me interested in the idea um that there was 554 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: something to think about here is I was reading years, 555 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: many years ago in Barry Lopez's Arctic Dreams, and in 556 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: the epilogue to the book, he's hunting walrus with Alaska natives, 557 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: though he's actually in Russian Wars, and they're slaughtering walrus 558 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: on the ice and the smell of blood and gunpowder 559 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: are still lingering in the air. And Lopez doesn't get 560 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: into it, but he alludes to the reconciliation or the 561 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: need to reconcile Jacob and Esau, or this reconciliation that occurs. 562 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, like, what's that. So I go and 563 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: look at the story of Jacob and Esau, which I interpreted. 564 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: I've been told by people that it's not I interpreted 565 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: it to be a story about hunters and non hunters. 566 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you, like my understanding of um and 567 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: and I want to get it. I want to touch 568 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: on Nimrod to who I wasn't even aware of. Okay, 569 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: but Jacob and Esaw, here's this mother. She's pregnant with twins, 570 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: and the first baby passes out, and it's Harry, covered 571 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: in hair and clinging to his ankle is a fair baby. 572 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: The hair covered baby that comes out first is Saw. 573 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: And the fair, non hairy baby that comes out clinging 574 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: to his ankle is Jacob. He Saw becomes a hunter. 575 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: He's a savage, and he hunts with his bow, and 576 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: he Saw the hairless one, it's an agrarian. Oh sorry, Jacob. 577 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: The hairless one becomes a farmer. Their father likes wild 578 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: game and often sends Saw with his bow to go 579 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: scrounge him up some wild game, and he Saw, being 580 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: the eldest, is entitled to the birthright. The old man 581 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: grows old and blind and sends Saw off with his 582 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: bow to kill him some wild meat. Jacob goes and 583 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: kills one of his lambs, drapes it over his shoulder, 584 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: cook some lamb for the old man. The old man 585 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: eats it, likes it, touches, feels the fur, thinks it's Saw, 586 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: and bestows upon him his birthright. I took it to 587 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: mean that this was the moment when God gave favor 588 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: to the agricultural people's and shunned the hunters through trickery, 589 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: and it's telling because Jacob is second born. But this 590 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: is clinging to the ankle of the hunter. So I 591 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: couldn't see it any other way. That it was sort 592 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: of a way of pointing out that the the Christians 593 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: were a grarians, they were pastorists, they weren't wild savages, 594 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: they weren't out hunting. And here's a story to sort 595 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: of account for how God's favoritism was granted to the 596 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: agricultural peoples and not to the wild savages. But I've 597 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: been told that that's not how that's not how you 598 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: should look at it. The great thing about it as 599 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: is up for interpretation, right. So so the story you're 600 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: looking at is in Genesis chapter twenty five. Uh. And 601 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: so Jacob and he saw born and he saw is 602 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: described then as being uh he comes out red and 603 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: he's hairy, right, and it says he's harry like a 604 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: garment like like a I don't know, mo hair suit, 605 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, right, And and and then there's Jacob 606 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: um our body dirt looks like this. Yeah, So did 607 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: you got two stories? One of course is that has 608 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: been out hunting and it comes in he's famished, and 609 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: you know what that's like, right, he's just gonna eat anything. 610 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: And he comes in and uh, Jacob says, basically, I'm cooking. 611 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: No interesting thing is you think about cooking, and some 612 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: cultures of course cooking, well, so cooking. It's interesting. We 613 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: cook in American culture, and I know things are shifting. 614 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: Gender roles are are malleable. But I would see in 615 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: the twentieth century if I said, oh, look he's cooking stew, 616 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: you would go mm. Because the image we have post 617 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: Victorian era is of the woman cooking in the home. 618 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: Now that's we we play with that because if it's 619 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: something large and muscular translation meat men have taken this 620 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: over and by the way, man, I think you've always 621 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: done this. If they can make it difficult, they will, right. 622 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: So we get smokers and we slap slash slabs of 623 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: of a hog and and all kinds of other things 624 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: are sausages on a smoker. And suddenly the masculine, right, 625 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: we allow that to come in. Yeah, you know this 626 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: is it's funny been because like an interesting thing with 627 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: in our home Thanksgiving my mom, Right, we'll take the turkey, 628 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: do all the work on the turkey. Okay, cook the giblets, rolls, 629 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: the whole damn thing, make the stuffing stuff and all 630 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But my old man, who had 631 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: nothing to do with this all day, all day, you 632 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: just do whatever you want hunting usually would come home 633 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: at night and be like, I will carve the turkey. 634 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, because like clearly you'd be incapable woman of 635 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,720 Speaker 1: now slicing it. You've done all this but your skill 636 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: set and somewhere and we've found the moment. We've got that, 637 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: we've got the tool that the symbol of, if you will, 638 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: of life and death. That not the blade, right, whether 639 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: it's electric knife or it's this big chef's knife and 640 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: the and the masculine takes over and Jacob's cookinge. So 641 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: he's cookinge, he's not hunting. And so you get this 642 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: idea of Esau who's on he a liminal character, liminal 643 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: not like you know, like the thing that's sour, but 644 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: l I M E N on the limits, on the edge. 645 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: Hunters are always there. They have to be there on 646 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: the edge, right, I mean, even if it's on the 647 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: edge of suburbia, your bow hunting, you're still on the edge. 648 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: So hunters are always a marginalized group. Because as we 649 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: see the domestication of the earth by way of the 650 00:36:54,640 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: Neolithic agricultural revolution and continuing agriculture, we all these are 651 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: pushing wildlife to the edges. Now I know, some do well, right, 652 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: So white tailed deer have done exceptionally well with some 653 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 1: of this type of edge, if you will, kind of environment. 654 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: Others don't write migratory animals generally don't. Whether we're building 655 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: a road or doing something else, we're disrupting their patterns 656 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: of migration. So hunters are always liminal stalls, a liminal character. 657 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: And he's all on the edge. Jacob's at home, Jacob's 658 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 1: hanging out with the women, all right, that's what Genesis says. 659 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: He's a mama's boy. He's breaking some gender roles of sorts. 660 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: He's breaking some gender roles here. And Isaac the Dead 661 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: has a taste for venison he saw his first born 662 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: provides into this. So what you get it's almost kind 663 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: of like a hunter gatherer myth in conflict with this 664 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,959 Speaker 1: movement toward a grarianism and the domestication of animals, and 665 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: so comes up and he ends up selling his birthright 666 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: to Jacob for this poor rige for this because he's 667 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: so hungry. He's so he's famished, right and Jacob, it 668 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: says uh, And Jacob gave esau bread and stew of lentils. 669 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: Think about it. Both those things are products of agriculture. 670 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: Lentils you're growing from the earth. And bread is a 671 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: product of course growing grains and cereal milling producing bread. 672 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: So Esa brings meat, Jacob brings Neolithic agriculture. Here it is. 673 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: But there's also a comment here too, where a criticism 674 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: when you do have hunter gatherer cultures up against agrarian cultures. 675 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: From the agrarian perspective, a criticism of the hunter gathered 676 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: culture is the feast and famine, the highs and lows exactly, 677 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: so the fact that he's coming back, he's coming back 678 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: starving from an unsuccessful hunt. He's this guy like right here, 679 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 1: bro bowl lentils, small produce it just so you get 680 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: the second story that shows up, the when you alluded to, 681 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: and it's like a second story about how he loses this. 682 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: I didn't catch this though, a right, and I forgot it. Yeah, 683 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: that he already bought it fair and square from his brother. 684 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: He bought the birthright, fair and square. All right, So 685 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: when the great things about looking at the Revival in 686 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: particular is it's woven together over centuries, and so a 687 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: lot of times we get these stories that seem to 688 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: to be redundant um and many times there and there's 689 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: all kinds of arguments among biblical scholars, and they get 690 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: all they know they're right, and they get in their 691 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: little schools of thought. But you likely have here are 692 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: two different myths, two different oral traditions that were floating 693 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: around one, which explained then how you saw is marginalized 694 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: in Jacob becomes the one who inherits not just the 695 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: birthright but the covenant that's made with Abraham and passed 696 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: down to Isaac and then to Jacob um. And so 697 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: you get these not that you shouldn't be seen them 698 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: as competing stories. It's like the story of Noah, right, 699 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: how many animals did Noah taken through the ark? When 700 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: one account says to the other, thing says seven. Well, 701 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: what it is is probably stories woven together. Is the 702 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: genesis one account different than the genesis to account to 703 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: creation stories. So we probably have here are two myths, 704 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: two stories. And by myth, I don't that he bought 705 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: it one that he got tricked out. You got it right. 706 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 1: So again when I say myth, I should say that's 707 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: not to say a story about something that didn't happen. 708 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: It's a story that a culture tells over time, and 709 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: that story encapsulates what it means to be us. It's 710 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: it's what ties us together. Hunters do this really well, right. 711 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: We tell stories. We tell stories, and we tell the 712 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: next generation how not to act and how to act 713 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: by way of the stories. Sometimes we laugh at him, 714 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: sometimes we mock characters and the story. But you know 715 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: then the cultural values. So these are stories that were told. 716 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: That's a myth um and mythology has that two elements logos, 717 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: that reason, rational, kind of coherent nous. And the myth 718 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: is the good story that he's told well over a fire. 719 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: And so we had two stories. So the second story, 720 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: so you've got Isaac and he likes his innocent, he 721 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: likes his his his serabids, and so you right, good 722 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: whatever um he sends, he saw out and sa is 723 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: his favorite. But then the mother of Jacob uses deception. 724 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: She takes first she places on his arms. Oh the ma, 725 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: it's Mama's in there too. I mean he's a mama's boy. 726 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: So she's the one that favors the egg guy. You 727 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: got it, exactly, the big egg. And so you get 728 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: them this story about how she dresses him up in 729 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: the to make him seem like the Harry Hunter. So 730 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: what you get then is this story about the Hunter 731 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: literally being carved out of the Covenant. The trickster Jacob 732 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: ends up getting the Covenant blessing. Now, I gotta I 733 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: gotta warn you here. I think the stories of the 734 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,959 Speaker 1: patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should not be used as 735 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: and this is how you should act, because they all 736 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: do things not so great. Um. But the the story 737 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: from the break to is not to emphasize the behavior 738 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: of the patriarchs, but emphasize the faithfulness of God still 739 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 1: dealing with these miscreants and still continuing to promise there's 740 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: a lesson. But embedded in there sure sounds like a 741 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: little hunter and gathering, passing away and putting forward the 742 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: idea of these pastoralists that eventually become urbanites. Um. And 743 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: that's the story that's that wins after all. Think about it. 744 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: Christianity is an inheritor or a descend of Judaism. And 745 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 1: Judaism is a story written by domesticators, and it's a 746 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: domesticating story. God wants you to be domesticated and that 747 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: I don't mean that in a bad way, but to 748 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: submit yourself. It's a story that comes out of the 749 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: agricultural revolution. It's a story written by pastoralists and urbanites. 750 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: It's written by agricultural interests. And it's not surprising that 751 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: you don't see hunting Lionized put forward as a model. 752 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: Well but in your okay, hold that thought, because I'm 753 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: only gonna I'm only gonna counter it with what I 754 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: learned from the book. Go for it. But first I 755 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: got another thing I got like coming from Judy. Are 756 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: you mean with the Hobad the Orthodox? There's like a 757 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 1: there's thing called Hobbad House, right, and it's like some 758 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: strain or sect of ultra Orthodox Jews who have a 759 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 1: sort of ministry. Were they a sort of ministry to 760 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: wayward or what they would regard as wayward reform Jews. 761 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,800 Speaker 1: So anyways, I used to go to these Habad lectures 762 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: because it's really interesting. Okay, no background, no not, you know, 763 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: you go back as far as you want. My family's 764 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: history is not a Jewish character in it. But one 765 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: day said to him, considering the dietary laws, like if 766 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: you look in the Old Testament, what it says like 767 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: you you do and don't eat, I'm like, seems to 768 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: me that it rules out wild game, Like if you 769 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: look in the Old Testament, you can't go near wild 770 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: game because it wasn't killed in the way that they 771 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: say animals should be killed, which is to have them 772 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: be totally healthy and have their throat cut. And in fact, 773 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: it says in the Old Testament you can't eat carrying, 774 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 1: which is taken to mean you can't eat crippled up 775 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 1: animals that the animal like to the point where they 776 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: would take the lungs out of the animal to make 777 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: sure that it hadn't had any lesions from having been 778 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: sick in the past and recovered from it is taken 779 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: that literally. So you have to have a super healthy 780 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 1: animal that you kill with a special knife and you 781 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: cut its throat. So I said, so, how can how 782 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: could a person eat wild game at all? And he said, 783 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: I guess you have to catch the net, catching the 784 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: net and then have and then do the sacramental like 785 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 1: the ritualistic slaughter of the animal is what he explained, 786 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: and the net thing caught me because this is the 787 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: thing that surprising about your book, and I'll explain what 788 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: it's surprising about this and then you can speak on it. 789 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 1: But one of the writers in the book, early on 790 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: it goes on to a staff She's like, listen, the 791 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: intended audience of this book was intimately familiar with hunting, 792 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 1: because when you're writing something, you take for granted what 793 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: your audience knows. And he goes into looking at metaphor 794 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,760 Speaker 1: and similarly in the Bible, and just to explain in metaphor, 795 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 1: like his metaphor, he chooses as the metaphor time is money. Okay, 796 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: now this is like the metaphor time is money is 797 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: a is a way of explaining time. You're like saying time. 798 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to define and help explain time. To 799 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,720 Speaker 1: explain time, I'm gonna use something we all know about 800 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,279 Speaker 1: and we all understand money. So here you're using, like 801 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: using this thing we all agree on the parameters of 802 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: it to explain something that we don't that we might 803 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: not or he's assuming is is a little bit our 804 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: understands a little more flaccid. So then he goes on 805 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: to say how many times explain how many times in 806 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 1: the Bible there are metaphors that are like, you know, 807 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: like when you're out net and birds, or you know, 808 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: when you get like a bad hit on something with 809 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: your bow, again and again and again. The way most 810 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: people won't even like see that this is going on, 811 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,399 Speaker 1: and so you kind of make this assumption that they 812 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: were speaking to people who they like knew would get 813 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: all this exactly. So this is the essay by Kenneth 814 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,879 Speaker 1: Bass and uh again, Bass is a scripture scholar. Uh 815 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 1: he's a professor at Central Texas College and um, so 816 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: it was just an idea he had, So we kind 817 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: of developed as almost all these essays that kind of 818 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: worked with the authors try and find something I could do. 819 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: So he thought he'd just kind of go back and 820 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: explore where's hunting in the Old Testament, because I mean, 821 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: you think about it, the hunters that are named in 822 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: the Old Testament the Hebrew Bible by name are a 823 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: guy named Nimrod. Yeah, I forgot, because I forgot to 824 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: have even talked about the name of the book god 825 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: Nimrod in the world Esau. And then the hunter who 826 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: appears the most who is named is Yale. God is 827 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 1: the most prominent hunter in the entire Hebrew. God is hunter, 828 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: God is hunter. So the question is how is God 829 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,839 Speaker 1: hunting and how these people hunting? So what he uses 830 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,359 Speaker 1: is this audience response criticism where you expect then your 831 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: your audience to get the metaphor and similar And when 832 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: he began to explore it, he began to track, pardon 833 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: the pun things that really he had never found in 834 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 1: print before. That is that there is this continual, well 835 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:32,360 Speaker 1: frequent reference to hunting culture. Now it's almost always negatively spun, 836 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: and most of the time it's spun from the perspective 837 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: of the prey. So the metaphor in the assembly that 838 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: show up in the Hebrew Bible expect you to understand 839 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 1: the whole idea of hunting, and that you understand both sides, 840 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: the hunter and the hunt head. And it's used many 841 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: times to pull out the poignancy of that relationship and 842 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: to project in particular the the the plight of the 843 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: not so much to strength of the predator. And in 844 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 1: this process he begins to look at how did they 845 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: hunt in the ancient Near East? And yes, they do 846 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: use the bow, which is most commonly used to think 847 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: about it. When when God Yahweh places the the the 848 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 1: rainbow in the sky at the Noah Uh covenant in Genesis, 849 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 1: and he says, by the way, among other things, I'm 850 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,920 Speaker 1: gonna judge you how you treat each other as humans 851 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: and also animals as animals treat each other, but then 852 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: gives permission to eat animals. This is in the storyline, 853 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: is to shift away from vegetarianism. Presumed the vegetarianism. He 854 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 1: puts a weapon in the sky. It's a bow in 855 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: the Hebrew. It's the same word bow weapon. He places 856 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: a weapon of the Yeah, and what he doesn't say 857 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,200 Speaker 1: is ain't gonna be no death. What he says, I'm 858 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,279 Speaker 1: just not gonna kill anybody anymore this way. But it's 859 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: a bow. So what Bass does is he works his 860 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: way through it. When he finds is that the Hebrew people, 861 00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,719 Speaker 1: while they didn't hunt, they were familiar with it and 862 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: as no cable TV. So how did they know about hunting? 863 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: How do they get all these metaphors the stories are 864 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: still being told. People on the edges must have still 865 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,960 Speaker 1: been hunting. And as he looked in particular at the 866 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: laws the political laws uh in the Hebrew Bible. In 867 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,600 Speaker 1: those first five books, there's this book called Leviticus that 868 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,239 Speaker 1: has all the things you should and shouldn't do as 869 00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,600 Speaker 1: part of the cultic practice. What he finds is there's 870 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,839 Speaker 1: a lot of animals that are permitted for you to eat. 871 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: You could only get by hunting. They're not domesticated animals, 872 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: Ibex and the like, these gazelle types, these are all 873 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,880 Speaker 1: viable foods, but you had to course hunt them. So 874 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: what he recognizes is is that Hebrew scriptures seem to 875 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,040 Speaker 1: be anti hunting because they give you these metaphors and 876 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: similes that play at the poignancy then of the prey 877 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 1: being captured or sometimes of course bad people falling into 878 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: their own traps, etcetera. And when he recognizes it's not 879 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: the weapons of hunting, as we would only think of 880 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: them just the bow and arrows, spear or javelin, But 881 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,680 Speaker 1: their nets, their pits, these are the things that they 882 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,640 Speaker 1: could use. There would be walls where they drive animals 883 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 1: into them, into the pit, or into a reason they 884 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: called a kite, that they could capture them and net them. 885 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: These were actually quite frequently referenced in the Hebrew Bible. 886 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: The Hebrew people may not have hunted that much, but 887 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: they knew about hunting culture and that whole react relationship 888 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: then between the hunter and the prey, the hunter and 889 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,919 Speaker 1: the hunted, was pivotal to understanding who they were, who 890 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: they were in relationship to each other, and most importantly, 891 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: how humans related to their God, because God was a hunter. 892 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,480 Speaker 1: But when you say that it's it's negative. Yeah, but 893 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 1: doesn't the author explain that, well, he's not. They don't. Really. 894 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 1: They don't like then go and condone agriculture either. They 895 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,879 Speaker 1: sort of use it in a in a similar way, 896 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,800 Speaker 1: like it's not like hunting is bad relative to other stuff. 897 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,840 Speaker 1: Think about the most if you've read the Hebrew Bible 898 00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: and the Christian New Testament, probably the most poignant symbol 899 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 1: is one tied to an animal. Now it's not a 900 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: wild animal, it's a lamb, the lamb led to the slaughter. 901 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,720 Speaker 1: It's a sacrifice lamb. If you get to the final 902 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,799 Speaker 1: end of the story where the Christians win revelation, right, 903 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,839 Speaker 1: it's a sacrifice lamb that appears that is triumphant. So 904 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: in the Hebrew Bible there's also this focus on the 905 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: killing of domesticated animals for cultic practice or for food, 906 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,440 Speaker 1: So hunting and animals dying and being captured, animals being 907 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:31,880 Speaker 1: led to a slaughter, ignorance of their fate which is 908 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,280 Speaker 1: about to come. The writers use those metaphors and similes 909 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,320 Speaker 1: to pull out, if you will, what he calls the target. 910 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: That that that emotion, that relationship, that idea that was 911 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: hard for them to teach, so they did it by 912 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,719 Speaker 1: way of this analogous language. So yeah, it's not explicitly 913 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,959 Speaker 1: anti hunting. But a problem is what the writer's turn 914 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 1: to was that point in the hunt, the trap, the capture, 915 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: the animal cause in the net at that point in 916 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: time no longer able to flee. That's what they turned 917 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,520 Speaker 1: to most often, and that comes across as being negative. 918 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: What's interesting about that is it gives us the idea 919 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,360 Speaker 1: that there was that level of sympathy and regret and 920 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: empathy about animal life even then. Yeah, exactly, why can 921 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: I ask? What did that lamb? Ca? Yeah, hey, this 922 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: is Michelle. He might have heard some giggles in the background, 923 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: but uh, what did that lamb represent? Like? Symbolically? Well, 924 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,760 Speaker 1: at various times it represented number of things. It depended 925 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 1: upon the symbol right or or this similar um, and 926 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,680 Speaker 1: sometimes it represented those who were ignorant, who were going 927 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: into trouble. In many cases, of course, the innocent lamb, 928 00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,360 Speaker 1: the one that had no blemish, no spot, represented something 929 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,799 Speaker 1: that willingly went. Of course, most famously, it's going to 930 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,080 Speaker 1: be used by the Christians to represent Christ who knowingly 931 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: in some ways went to right, willingly gave itself up 932 00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,200 Speaker 1: for the redemption, to the accomplishment of something a blood sacrifice. 933 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,239 Speaker 1: And then I'm perceiving it not so much as what 934 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: Steve said, We're like you're thinking about the plight of 935 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,000 Speaker 1: the prey. I'm seeing it as like this is what's 936 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,400 Speaker 1: at steak. And a lot of times again, even in 937 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,279 Speaker 1: the hunting metaphors, there's what's at steak as well. So 938 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,960 Speaker 1: you get people who dig pits to trap their neighbor. 939 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: That's not literally right. It's not like you don't want 940 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: your neighbor to phone to a bit. My neighbors are 941 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,399 Speaker 1: pretty decent. I wouldn't want that to happen to him, 942 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,720 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But it's this is what happens. 943 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: Or most famously, of course, is there's this this uh 944 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,239 Speaker 1: saying that Jesus has he's got his disciples around. He says, 945 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:35,080 Speaker 1: you see the sparrows. No sparrow falls without God seeing it. No, 946 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,560 Speaker 1: you think, what's the sparrow falling for? I always wondered 947 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: about that as a kid, and I heard it in church. 948 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,840 Speaker 1: What's bass pointed out? The sparrow is the cheapest animal 949 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,799 Speaker 1: that would be eaten. You could get a sparrow for 950 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,040 Speaker 1: a penny. Even spells out what sparrows, what dead sparrows 951 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,960 Speaker 1: call exactly, so you can even get like in bulk right, 952 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,360 Speaker 1: it's like going to Costco or Sam's or something. You 953 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 1: can get your sparrows. They were cheap food. Notice that 954 00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,960 Speaker 1: God doesn't stop the killing of the sparrow, the netting 955 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,960 Speaker 1: of the sparrow, but he's observant of it, he sees it, 956 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 1: he's aware of it. So what makes them you get 957 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,840 Speaker 1: by the assemblies is an awareness of like how no 958 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,640 Speaker 1: turkey dies about is hearing about hearing about it? And 959 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:17,200 Speaker 1: where it happened, you know, and and but God doesn't 960 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 1: not empower the hunter. But think about it and the 961 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:24,000 Speaker 1: story of Esaul and his father Isaac, it's made very 962 00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,040 Speaker 1: clear that you don't always get game, and if you 963 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: do get game, it's made clear it's by the blessing 964 00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:34,200 Speaker 1: of God. God blesses the hunter and empowers him, allows 965 00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,760 Speaker 1: him then to find prey for his own. So God's 966 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,439 Speaker 1: mixed in all that's the God, the Nimrod in the world. 967 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: It's the idea of looking to the divide and and 968 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 1: looking in this this faith or multiple faith traditions, the 969 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,399 Speaker 1: idea of the hunter. Who's this character Nimrod? So if 970 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,719 Speaker 1: you will the divine now right well and then and 971 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,479 Speaker 1: then the world. And an environmental approach, which I gotta 972 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,360 Speaker 1: say most Christians don't pay any attention to to the 973 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: environmental and most hunters, I gotta tell you thing that 974 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 1: they don't go to a church or synagogue and find 975 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:08,400 Speaker 1: a recycle bin at the back. But you're not this 976 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,160 Speaker 1: counters um, this counter something that was in an email 977 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,759 Speaker 1: just got no, it's not in this one. Do you 978 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,239 Speaker 1: think about like the creation story in the garden and 979 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,840 Speaker 1: being tenders of the garden and like Stewart's like, it 980 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,640 Speaker 1: seems like how are they missing that big point? And 981 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,960 Speaker 1: this is the huge issue, And that's the question of 982 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,920 Speaker 1: dominion and the question this is one that gets bounced 983 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,120 Speaker 1: around with multiple interpretations. And you're gonna talk about Nimron 984 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,160 Speaker 1: and there's a connection I got a ton of questions 985 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,200 Speaker 1: about what you're talking about, cause you talked about you 986 00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,520 Speaker 1: talked about Elder Leopold, and yeah, okay, well here's here's 987 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:45,879 Speaker 1: the thing. The guy wrote in this is the guy 988 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,960 Speaker 1: that wrote in about Paul and Saul all right. Goes 989 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,400 Speaker 1: on to say a lot of Christians, myself included, have 990 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:55,360 Speaker 1: a passion for caring for our world and are very grateful. 991 00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: And he goes on, let's say some nice stuff. All right, 992 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: So there's one. So so one of the things I 993 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,000 Speaker 1: particularly look at my own studies, um, and look at 994 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: in my classes, but it shows up in this book, 995 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,400 Speaker 1: not just in my essays, but in some of the 996 00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: latter half from the academy, where you begin to see 997 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,319 Speaker 1: people who embraced an idea of hunting, but they want 998 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 1: to do it in particular way. So, for instance, you 999 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:20,920 Speaker 1: have the Roman Catholic priest. You're not hitting me with 1000 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: nemrod right now. I'm weaving it back, I promise, um. 1001 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,160 Speaker 1: And they're going to turn to Aldo Leopold um, and 1002 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,520 Speaker 1: so Ted vitally he's at St. Louis University. Um, you've 1003 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:39,719 Speaker 1: got uh, we've got a pacifist uh from Chicago, and 1004 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,640 Speaker 1: he's gonna write in particular, he hunts any hunts with 1005 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,560 Speaker 1: a bow. And the question is, you know, how can he, 1006 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,560 Speaker 1: as a pacifist embrace this? And so he his name 1007 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,600 Speaker 1: is Greg Clark. He turns to Aldo Leopold. So a 1008 00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 1: number of Christian writers from the Academy are very much 1009 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,439 Speaker 1: acquainted with Leopold, particularly San County Almanac. If you've read 1010 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,880 Speaker 1: that and you know the story, it's the story of 1011 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: the wolf, right the green Eyes, right as as they 1012 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,800 Speaker 1: just kill the wolf for the sake of supposedly increasing 1013 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,280 Speaker 1: numbers of deer, and it begins to realize you can't 1014 00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 1: look at hunting and at game management uh and managing 1015 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:22,000 Speaker 1: resources with the idea of immediate gratification of increased populations. 1016 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,400 Speaker 1: You have to see it like the Mountain sees it. 1017 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,000 Speaker 1: You've got to think long term. So many Christian ethosis 1018 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,200 Speaker 1: have turned to this, but what they're they're encountering is 1019 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,920 Speaker 1: the challenge of the question of dominion. So one of 1020 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,959 Speaker 1: the problems for people who want to be positive about 1021 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:42,520 Speaker 1: hunting and they're looking for role models in the Bible 1022 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,080 Speaker 1: is there's not that many. One of the interesting characters, 1023 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,280 Speaker 1: the guy Iman nime Rod here we Go I promise 1024 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:55,880 Speaker 1: you follow that rabbit. Thank you. There. It's an interesting character. 1025 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,960 Speaker 1: He shows it just for a few verses. In Genesis. 1026 00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,880 Speaker 1: He's he's early, he's early, he's early on alright, So 1027 00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,080 Speaker 1: he's after Noah, after the flood story, and he's from 1028 00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: a descendants of Ham. Now there's a whole story, uh Noah, 1029 00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,440 Speaker 1: and they all get the promise. Yehaw. He starts growing grapes. 1030 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 1: He gets drunk off his ass, he gets naked. Um, 1031 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,760 Speaker 1: is you remember this story? And unfortunately you gotta read 1032 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,120 Speaker 1: the Hebrew Bible. Well no, no, no, that's a lot. 1033 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:29,520 Speaker 1: That's that's grapes Fermentum gets drunkunk, gets drunken, naked, gets 1034 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,880 Speaker 1: drunken naked, and his his son shows up and sees 1035 00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,560 Speaker 1: his nickeheadedness. Right, this is nakedness. This is good stuff 1036 00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,520 Speaker 1: in the Bible. There's adultery, there's murder, there's nakedness, there's 1037 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,240 Speaker 1: there's just all kinds of great stuff. Their myths, their 1038 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,480 Speaker 1: stories that had I mean they had traction around the fireplace, 1039 00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,080 Speaker 1: um and the heart. So anyhow, he gets drunk. He 1040 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,400 Speaker 1: has a son named Ham, who sees his nakedness, goes 1041 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,600 Speaker 1: back to his brother's dude dad's naked and drunk the 1042 00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:00,640 Speaker 1: other two brothers, and we don't know exactly what that means. 1043 00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,080 Speaker 1: He's all kinds of different interpretation that he saw his father, 1044 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 1: you know. Uh. The two other sons come in and 1045 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,080 Speaker 1: cover the nakedness of their father. They showed their respect 1046 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 1: and for this, then Noah curses his son Ham. Now 1047 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,920 Speaker 1: it gets tricky because suddenly it goes from curs did 1048 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,400 Speaker 1: nothing to help, who did nothing to help? Ends up 1049 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,400 Speaker 1: shifting to cursing descendant he has gotten named Canaan, and 1050 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:26,680 Speaker 1: then it gets ideological and then can enabled Canaan, No Canan, Canaan. Okay, 1051 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,040 Speaker 1: So all this is Nimrod is a descendant of this 1052 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 1: cursed lineage, and then light shows up. Nimrod is a 1053 00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,919 Speaker 1: descendant of the cursed lineage of the guy that saw 1054 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,480 Speaker 1: Noah drawnk and just ran off to the squeal on 1055 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,920 Speaker 1: him right right, So it's really it's a short section, 1056 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,760 Speaker 1: so it goes real quick. It's in Genesis chapter Tennis 1057 00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,680 Speaker 1: is coush Hey, great names right there, Cush, Spaghett, and Nimrod. 1058 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,600 Speaker 1: He began to be a mighty one on the earth. 1059 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,680 Speaker 1: He was a mighty hunter before the Lord. Therefore it 1060 00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 1: is said, like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord, 1061 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,840 Speaker 1: and the beginning of his kingdom was babel eric a 1062 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,200 Speaker 1: cod Kalna in the land of Shinar, and from that 1063 01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,240 Speaker 1: land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, and it 1064 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,960 Speaker 1: goes on. So what you get is this interesting character 1065 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,840 Speaker 1: who was a mighty hunter before the Lord. The god 1066 01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:19,080 Speaker 1: saw him and seemingly empowered him and noticed it's proverbial, 1067 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,400 Speaker 1: it's like before the Lord means in view of in 1068 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,720 Speaker 1: view of Lord. And again interpretations very but many scholars 1069 01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,320 Speaker 1: will say that actually he was empowered and successful because 1070 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:34,440 Speaker 1: of the gifts from Yahweh. But what he does is intriguing. 1071 01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,160 Speaker 1: He's a mighty hunter before the Lord, but he begins civilization, 1072 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,960 Speaker 1: he starts founding cities. So you have a liminal character 1073 01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,080 Speaker 1: who's powerful and at the same time then goes and 1074 01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,640 Speaker 1: establishes these major kingdoms that you become aware of in 1075 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,440 Speaker 1: ancient or Eastern history, most famously of course the Syria Um. 1076 01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,320 Speaker 1: So there's not much there. So Nimrod becomes an intriguing 1077 01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,520 Speaker 1: touchstone for both people who are positive or negative about 1078 01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,040 Speaker 1: hunting and culture. If I do this just serving is 1079 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,960 Speaker 1: not much to go off and it's not. But if 1080 01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: you read my entire chapter you'll find there's tons And 1081 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,360 Speaker 1: what happens is the Rabbis talk about it and they 1082 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,040 Speaker 1: have their own commentary. So this is kind of extra 1083 01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,080 Speaker 1: biblical commentary that floats around as well. But if I 1084 01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,520 Speaker 1: were to turn to Janice and say, dude, you're a Nemerod, 1085 01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,240 Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to be perceived as a 1086 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,880 Speaker 1: positive evaluation. Definitely not. But isn't that like like I 1087 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:30,720 Speaker 1: think if you look in the Urban Dictionary talks about 1088 01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:35,040 Speaker 1: like Elmer Fudd, like right, because the blundering hunter. But 1089 01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,680 Speaker 1: if you were to look at a a journal, a 1090 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:43,000 Speaker 1: sporting journal in the early eighteen hundreds, early hunters and 1091 01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:44,960 Speaker 1: early hunters, I should say, hunters in the British and 1092 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:49,000 Speaker 1: American traditions, we're calling themselves nemerods based on that little 1093 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,800 Speaker 1: dinky messters because how is that more important than because 1094 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,400 Speaker 1: he was a mighty hunter before the before the Lord. 1095 01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:57,880 Speaker 1: So what you get his nimrod, where there's so little 1096 01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:03,640 Speaker 1: there becomes either the wonderful argument against hunting look twisted 1097 01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,480 Speaker 1: into the negative and then twist in the Historically, what 1098 01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,160 Speaker 1: it was used is it was interpreted that he was 1099 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,040 Speaker 1: one who was a hunter, and not a hunter of animals, 1100 01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,640 Speaker 1: but a hunter of men. That he subjugated men and 1101 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,200 Speaker 1: people's and thus became a founder of empires. Empires by 1102 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 1: the way that we're not democratic republics, right, these were 1103 01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: tyrannical empires. And so it's perceived then that Nimroid becomes 1104 01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:31,280 Speaker 1: then this symbol of oppression. And so that's what he was. 1105 01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,439 Speaker 1: And they don't give that power to him by God. 1106 01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,360 Speaker 1: They simply say that God observed and or saw him 1107 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:42,480 Speaker 1: the positive view, Okay, would the Bible have let that happen? 1108 01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:48,840 Speaker 1: That they meant hunter of man? So is there a 1109 01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:53,680 Speaker 1: precedent for using hunter to mean hunter of man? Well, 1110 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,480 Speaker 1: what happens is you begin to get these commentaries and 1111 01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,000 Speaker 1: then among other people, there's a guy by the name 1112 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,320 Speaker 1: of Augustine. You may have heard of him. Augustine's a 1113 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,120 Speaker 1: theologian uh in the late three hundreds. I think he's 1114 01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,680 Speaker 1: born in three fifty four and he dies in four 1115 01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:10,640 Speaker 1: thirty a d uh. And he lives in North Africa. 1116 01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,840 Speaker 1: He's from a place called Hippo, pretty cool carthage Um, 1117 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,200 Speaker 1: and he ends up writing some really important books and commentaries. 1118 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,640 Speaker 1: He writes an autobiography called Confessions, and he also writes 1119 01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:23,440 Speaker 1: a way of trying to figure out what's going with 1120 01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:27,240 Speaker 1: Rome because Rome is sacked by the Visigoths uh in 1121 01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,760 Speaker 1: four ten. And he writes a book called basically Two Cities. 1122 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,440 Speaker 1: So Augustine's really really important. He also gives the West 1123 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:37,800 Speaker 1: it's clear view kind of about sin, original sin. They're 1124 01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,080 Speaker 1: all born busted. Thank Augustine for this. It's an Augustine 1125 01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,760 Speaker 1: the world view. But Augustine spends Nimrod as well in 1126 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,520 Speaker 1: this perspective, and so you get this tradition that builds 1127 01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,440 Speaker 1: on other you can say, bills on other ignorances, but 1128 01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,600 Speaker 1: essentially begins to expand it. And you have the Nimrod 1129 01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:59,440 Speaker 1: disinterpreted in many different ways. And this idea of posts 1130 01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:04,080 Speaker 1: or should say extra biblical commentary that's floating around that 1131 01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,360 Speaker 1: many of these early Christian scholars tap into have him 1132 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,280 Speaker 1: being in this empire founder not necessarily a hunter. And 1133 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,840 Speaker 1: so I mean, you just gotta scrape away at the layers, 1134 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,240 Speaker 1: going through all those primary sources, right, and you begin 1135 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,840 Speaker 1: to see how you work your way to this. Now, 1136 01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,360 Speaker 1: what happens is in the eighteen hundreds, while early sportsmen 1137 01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,680 Speaker 1: who are particularly moving then towards the idea of sports 1138 01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,360 Speaker 1: hunting and developing it into something that we began to 1139 01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,920 Speaker 1: write about in Europe or in the US, both because 1140 01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,880 Speaker 1: it starts in Britain in particular, but a lot of 1141 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,560 Speaker 1: Brits come over in the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties 1142 01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:41,440 Speaker 1: and they bring with them hunting sporting culture. They begin 1143 01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,080 Speaker 1: to create journals like the Spirit of the Times is 1144 01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,160 Speaker 1: probably the most famous ones. It's coming out from the 1145 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 1: East Coast, but the major writers are actually British sporting 1146 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,480 Speaker 1: writers couldn't make it in Britain to come to America, 1147 01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:57,160 Speaker 1: and they began to push america uh sportsman into a 1148 01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,600 Speaker 1: new perception of hunting because up to that point in time, 1149 01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,680 Speaker 1: hunters were basically what we might call pot hunters. They 1150 01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 1: were there to hunt for meat, et cetera. The Daniel 1151 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,280 Speaker 1: Boone's who's the hero? Right that Davy Crockett's even right, 1152 01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,160 Speaker 1: sorry about the Alumo, but he nonetheless was a guy 1153 01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:14,680 Speaker 1: on the edge. So you see them moving forward. The 1154 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,320 Speaker 1: kind of cuts point out real quick like the differences 1155 01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,280 Speaker 1: there because Boone and Crockett are often like discussed together, 1156 01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,840 Speaker 1: they're very different people there. They are really are Boone 1157 01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,360 Speaker 1: was a market hunter. So talked about a guy on 1158 01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,360 Speaker 1: the edge, right, he spent his whole life chasing the edge, um, 1159 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,400 Speaker 1: the edge of civilization, right. But he was a market hunter. 1160 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,880 Speaker 1: Hunted bear meat to sell the meat, hunted deerskins to 1161 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:40,560 Speaker 1: sell the highs, and that's how he made his income. 1162 01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:45,960 Speaker 1: Crockett was attached to military campaigns and would hunt to 1163 01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,600 Speaker 1: feed people out in punitive expeditions against the Indians. But 1164 01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:52,640 Speaker 1: that you gotta eat, right, and so Crocket would higher 1165 01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,720 Speaker 1: on to go and meat for these expeditions. Both are 1166 01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:58,600 Speaker 1: associated with the frontier. Oh yeah, absolutely, And this is 1167 01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:00,960 Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't trying to take apart what you're 1168 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,160 Speaker 1: saying was pointing out to people like what sort of 1169 01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,120 Speaker 1: hunting they were up to to be, like they were 1170 01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:10,120 Speaker 1: commercial individuals, pot hunters, meat hunters, market hunters. Well, what 1171 01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,960 Speaker 1: you get here is just basically hunters, um. And you 1172 01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,280 Speaker 1: don't get the whole idea of pot hunters until you 1173 01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,240 Speaker 1: have sport hunters. So what sport hunters began because they 1174 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,760 Speaker 1: invite the distinction exactly. So rather than so it's like 1175 01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, there's you can be a hunter, 1176 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:25,520 Speaker 1: but there's a better way to be a hunter. Right, 1177 01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,040 Speaker 1: So and so today we have the same distinctions. We 1178 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:31,400 Speaker 1: have things like meat hunters and we have a right 1179 01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,760 Speaker 1: and then how does that work out? That's another ethical thing. 1180 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:35,360 Speaker 1: We can show that the side. But we come back 1181 01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,840 Speaker 1: to it. By the way, it's a great book came 1182 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,880 Speaker 1: out around the year two thousand, two thousand one. It's 1183 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,760 Speaker 1: out of print now, but I courage you anyone to read. 1184 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,120 Speaker 1: It's called Hunting in the American Imagination. It's by a 1185 01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:51,680 Speaker 1: guy named Daniel Justin Herman. He's a professor, do you good? Right? 1186 01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,920 Speaker 1: So he develops this distinction. Quote him, I don't want 1187 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:56,560 Speaker 1: to oversell it. Um. I mean, there's some things I 1188 01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,400 Speaker 1: don't agree with, but he really does something pivotal in 1189 01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,440 Speaker 1: the discussion hunting cultures in America. It's his dissertation. But 1190 01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,840 Speaker 1: he wasn't a hunter, and someone basically said, oh, we 1191 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:06,360 Speaker 1: don't have a topic here right on this and it 1192 01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,320 Speaker 1: worked and I'm so thankful he did this. He laid 1193 01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,680 Speaker 1: the grandmark. But he describes that these British hunters come over, 1194 01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,080 Speaker 1: they develop a sporting culture by way of particularly periodicals, 1195 01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,000 Speaker 1: and Americans as we continue to push the frontier further 1196 01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,560 Speaker 1: and further west take up this sport hunting. And cand 1197 01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:26,120 Speaker 1: I had another thing in here. Man Boon's people were 1198 01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:30,640 Speaker 1: from his family was British, not at all hunters when 1199 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:34,560 Speaker 1: they came well, they had they discovered hunting in a 1200 01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:37,520 Speaker 1: very practical way. So these people you're talking about, our 1201 01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,880 Speaker 1: our upper like Boons people were working people. These British 1202 01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:48,960 Speaker 1: sport hunters are are the genteel. It's so particularly that 1203 01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:53,360 Speaker 1: come to America year afric But these are like wealthy individuals. 1204 01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:55,760 Speaker 1: They've been doing this for centuries in Britain, but in 1205 01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:59,160 Speaker 1: America we see this cultural shift towards sport hunting and 1206 01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,640 Speaker 1: there in bracing even if they're not wealthy, they embraced 1207 01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,560 Speaker 1: this idea. So for instance, there's this is this poem 1208 01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:09,800 Speaker 1: I found in Spirit of the Spirit of the World, uh, 1209 01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,640 Speaker 1: Spirit of Times from I think it's from eighteen fifty two, 1210 01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,400 Speaker 1: and of course I do Texas history as well, and 1211 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,200 Speaker 1: uh it's it's Scattering the Morning Do and it's by 1212 01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,439 Speaker 1: an anonymous author and it's from It's just like it's 1213 01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,599 Speaker 1: eight years before the Civil War. It's written along the 1214 01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,760 Speaker 1: mouth of the the mouth of the Brases, if remember correct. 1215 01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,320 Speaker 1: So at the Gulf Coast. They're in Texas and it's 1216 01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:34,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of guys talking about getting drunk and tomorrow 1217 01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:38,200 Speaker 1: they're gonna go hunt. But it's sport hunting. Now eighteen 1218 01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:42,839 Speaker 1: fifty two, Texas has only been a state for seven years. 1219 01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:46,240 Speaker 1: It's only been a republic and then a state for twenties. 1220 01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:50,880 Speaker 1: Someone vanquish command commanches are are fixed the gang get 1221 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,040 Speaker 1: territory during the Civil War. They're gonna push in back 1222 01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,519 Speaker 1: into central Texas. So Texas is just really East Texas 1223 01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:00,200 Speaker 1: and the coastal region. But they're already distinguishing themselves as 1224 01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:03,599 Speaker 1: sport hunters and the writing poetry and getting it published 1225 01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:06,240 Speaker 1: in New York for the journals. They are the periodicals 1226 01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,599 Speaker 1: that are coming out. So we have this birth of 1227 01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,800 Speaker 1: sport and they turned to nimerod As as their kind 1228 01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,880 Speaker 1: of their hero. He's a gifted hunter based on Yeah, 1229 01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:20,479 Speaker 1: it's just because he's hairy and red. Not think about 1230 01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,479 Speaker 1: that one for a minute. You're talking about racism and 1231 01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,280 Speaker 1: and things that are going on with the Native Americans, etcetera. 1232 01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,439 Speaker 1: You can see why they wouldn't write no, No, we're 1233 01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:33,599 Speaker 1: not nimerod We're mighty hunters. Just it's a mighty hunter, 1234 01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:38,920 Speaker 1: mighty hunter. Yeah, and so they that one adjective, that 1235 01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:40,800 Speaker 1: is it. And that's how the r now nimerod then 1236 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,880 Speaker 1: becomes a reaction again, a pejorative, an insult, because it 1237 01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:46,760 Speaker 1: begins to be seen, particularly in Britain. When it comes 1238 01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,439 Speaker 1: over to America in the twentieth century, people would be 1239 01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:51,720 Speaker 1: called nimerods. But they were being seen in as a 1240 01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:53,519 Speaker 1: bunch of country gentlemen who wanted to be like the 1241 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:57,160 Speaker 1: wealthy of previous centuries who around road to hounds, right, 1242 01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:00,960 Speaker 1: chase the fox. And there were these new gentry. They're bunchly, 1243 01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:06,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of rednecks, rubes, country folk who basically trying 1244 01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,240 Speaker 1: to act like gentlemen. And so they would be mocked 1245 01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:11,640 Speaker 1: then as oh, you nimrods. And you begin to have 1246 01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,000 Speaker 1: just as you have the use of the name as 1247 01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:19,439 Speaker 1: this um positive no man, if you will have taken 1248 01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,439 Speaker 1: on by characters, you also have this pejorative that the 1249 01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:25,840 Speaker 1: critics on the outside are using. Also economically, it becomes 1250 01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:28,400 Speaker 1: like the term fake news, where you take something just 1251 01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:31,719 Speaker 1: turn it around on itself. Yeah, and so of course, 1252 01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:36,360 Speaker 1: fud right, thank you. Let's personify hunters as idiots, as 1253 01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,320 Speaker 1: rubes as people who can't actually get the rabbit, and 1254 01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:45,200 Speaker 1: so you get the fud kind of approach. Um the Nimerod, Yeah, 1255 01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,760 Speaker 1: man Nimrod gets a lot of traction. Thing is, and 1256 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,840 Speaker 1: if you read my essay in the book, he's been 1257 01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:56,519 Speaker 1: he gets traction. Not just recently, he gets traction for centuries. Yeah, 1258 01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:58,320 Speaker 1: there's not much there, but you know what, if you're 1259 01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,120 Speaker 1: trying to make an argument, it helps. If the not 1260 01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,720 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence, you know what I mean, you 1261 01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:04,680 Speaker 1: can make it what you wanted to make it. It's 1262 01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,720 Speaker 1: kind of like what you're always saying about Laramie, and uh, 1263 01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:11,000 Speaker 1: who's Who's Who's like a great Western Oh, the mountain 1264 01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,120 Speaker 1: man Laramie, Yeah, he got everything names shows up out west, 1265 01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:16,240 Speaker 1: promptly gets killed and stuff down through a hole in 1266 01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:17,880 Speaker 1: the ice and the beaver pond, and it winds up 1267 01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:21,360 Speaker 1: at half the damn state. Now, no one knows. No 1268 01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: one knows where this dude came from. Nothing's known about him. 1269 01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:27,559 Speaker 1: It's just that somewhere someone's like, oh and some dude 1270 01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:30,479 Speaker 1: named Laramie couldn't find him. Sure enough, I found him 1271 01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:33,120 Speaker 1: dead in the beaver pond. The less you know, the 1272 01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,080 Speaker 1: more you know. It just winds up. It just gives 1273 01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:38,800 Speaker 1: you a lot of room to run. See, now, here's 1274 01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:40,160 Speaker 1: a question I want to ask you towards them, but 1275 01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:41,519 Speaker 1: I almost want to ask it to you now, but 1276 01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,320 Speaker 1: it's like it's too big of a question. Tell me 1277 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:46,679 Speaker 1: this is too big of a question, all right, because 1278 01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:48,559 Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff from the book that I 1279 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:49,880 Speaker 1: want to get into. But I need to ask this 1280 01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:56,960 Speaker 1: in your world, in the world of biblical scholarships, just 1281 01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:58,679 Speaker 1: a hard question to ask because it's like you need 1282 01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:00,360 Speaker 1: to have it be this way or else they wouldn't 1283 01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:04,479 Speaker 1: be biblical scholarship. Is it? Is it discussed how the 1284 01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:09,320 Speaker 1: Bible is too open to individual interpretation? Meaning there are 1285 01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:12,280 Speaker 1: those who look at the Bible and the main thing 1286 01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:17,080 Speaker 1: they see is by God, I should persecute gay people. 1287 01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,360 Speaker 1: Some people look at the Bible and they see I 1288 01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:25,720 Speaker 1: should do everything in my power to alleviate suffering. Like 1289 01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:30,759 Speaker 1: how right? How is it so big and so open 1290 01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,559 Speaker 1: to interpretation? So what you're asking me right now, is 1291 01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:35,719 Speaker 1: you see this land mine? Would you like to step 1292 01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:40,519 Speaker 1: on it? Okay? Okay, let me find let me okay, 1293 01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,920 Speaker 1: how could it be? Okay, let's let's not even go big. 1294 01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:48,880 Speaker 1: Let's go small Nimrods good? How could it be like 1295 01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:52,880 Speaker 1: what do you see when you begin to see that 1296 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:58,920 Speaker 1: that some people in some time? Because here, let's let's 1297 01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,000 Speaker 1: bring it even more narrow. I'm sure that when that was, 1298 01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:04,760 Speaker 1: when that was being told around the campfire as a 1299 01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:06,720 Speaker 1: story to explain who we are, what we believe, what 1300 01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:09,000 Speaker 1: we ought to do, there probably was not a lack 1301 01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:12,639 Speaker 1: of clarity around how you're supposed to feel about nimrod Okay, 1302 01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,639 Speaker 1: that's okay, So let me let me touch it and 1303 01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:17,160 Speaker 1: and we'll see. I don't want to go too far 1304 01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:20,920 Speaker 1: with it. This is a huge question. It is a 1305 01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,680 Speaker 1: big question. Um, and it's a question. Okay, it's a 1306 01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:24,960 Speaker 1: big question. Let's see what I can do with it 1307 01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,880 Speaker 1: in my American history courses. Can you ask my question 1308 01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:33,600 Speaker 1: real quick? Do That's why I'm gonna read it. I 1309 01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:35,280 Speaker 1: want to make sure it's clearly I've I've muggied the 1310 01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:39,439 Speaker 1: waters when it was when it was a narrative, like 1311 01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,519 Speaker 1: when it was a narrative that people were telling in 1312 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,479 Speaker 1: real time to explain who we are, what we believe, 1313 01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:48,320 Speaker 1: what our traditions are, and it was being impactful in 1314 01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,920 Speaker 1: the intended way. Do you feel that it was confusing 1315 01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:55,960 Speaker 1: then or is that? Is that not answerable? I think 1316 01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:59,040 Speaker 1: it's not answerable, not answerable. I think it's not answerable. 1317 01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:08,000 Speaker 1: I mean the Bible itself is a composite composed for centuries. 1318 01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,280 Speaker 1: And at least this is the prospective historians and bilbl scholars, 1319 01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:17,800 Speaker 1: okay today um. And as a result of that, many 1320 01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:22,639 Speaker 1: times the beginning, the origins have been lost. We don't 1321 01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:26,880 Speaker 1: we don't know how it started. Now, historical criticism many 1322 01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,280 Speaker 1: times tries to work its way back to figure out 1323 01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:32,839 Speaker 1: where this came from, how it originated, what its import 1324 01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:35,160 Speaker 1: was then, and why it finds its way into the 1325 01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:40,599 Speaker 1: stories in the Hebrew Bible. What There's a guy named 1326 01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,559 Speaker 1: Lhausen in the nineteenth century puts forwards something called the 1327 01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:47,280 Speaker 1: documentary thesis. And what he argues is, if you look, 1328 01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,280 Speaker 1: for instance, just at the pentitute, this first five books 1329 01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:55,840 Speaker 1: we've been talking about against the word pentitude five books, Genesis, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, 1330 01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,280 Speaker 1: Numbers and Deuteronomy, is that the Old Testament, No, no, 1331 01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:03,200 Speaker 1: you got like a butler a ton more, a ton 1332 01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,360 Speaker 1: more books than the Old Testament in the here re Bible. Now, 1333 01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:09,360 Speaker 1: in those first five books, in particular, what you see 1334 01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:15,960 Speaker 1: than are various layers of sources being brought together. The 1335 01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:23,920 Speaker 1: sources themselves, many times were composites of oral traditions, maybe 1336 01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:27,000 Speaker 1: written traditions that were being brought together. Now he he 1337 01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:29,800 Speaker 1: defines them. He particularly looks, and he's saying, I think 1338 01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:32,920 Speaker 1: that these patterns are there, and that these sources can 1339 01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:35,720 Speaker 1: be looked at chronologically so famously. If I can do 1340 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:40,680 Speaker 1: this right, it's j E p D. I think it's 1341 01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:42,360 Speaker 1: rights p D. I have to look it up. So 1342 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,160 Speaker 1: what he has to see as the y'all list, the 1343 01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:49,439 Speaker 1: elois uh, the priestly source, and the deuteronomous. So what 1344 01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:51,640 Speaker 1: he looks at is he looks at the scriptures and 1345 01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:53,719 Speaker 1: he looks like, for instance, what name is used for God? 1346 01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:57,640 Speaker 1: So in Genesis one you see one name for God, 1347 01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:00,639 Speaker 1: and Genesis too you see a different name for God. Well, 1348 01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:02,879 Speaker 1: what is it, hit, You have two different creation stories. 1349 01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:05,680 Speaker 1: What this hints to the scholar who looks at it 1350 01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:07,639 Speaker 1: from a critical point of view is you have two 1351 01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:13,280 Speaker 1: different stories from two different sources. They even call God 1352 01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:16,639 Speaker 1: two different names. Once Eloheim, the plural of l or God. 1353 01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:19,680 Speaker 1: The other is Yahweh, this particular personal name that the 1354 01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,360 Speaker 1: Hebrew people had for God. So these seem to be 1355 01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:25,640 Speaker 1: two dishes to do, two different traditions that existed that 1356 01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:29,120 Speaker 1: were pulled together by an editor at various times, maybe 1357 01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:34,439 Speaker 1: multiple editors, and they're brought together because they're seemingly tight 1358 01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:38,240 Speaker 1: enough to communicate the story a salvation story, perhaps right, 1359 01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:40,880 Speaker 1: but at the same time that you get them many times, 1360 01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:44,000 Speaker 1: or where these stories originated and how they started in 1361 01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:46,920 Speaker 1: what their original meeting was. One argument is, if you 1362 01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:50,200 Speaker 1: read the story of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, is 1363 01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:53,360 Speaker 1: that really these actually weren't father son and grandson. There 1364 01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:57,840 Speaker 1: were three different stories about founders of tribes that as 1365 01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,920 Speaker 1: the Israelites came together, Hebrews came together. There they said, well, 1366 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:04,360 Speaker 1: let's put them together, and somebody began to The stories 1367 01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,439 Speaker 1: began to grow and meld, and surely then Abraham had 1368 01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,960 Speaker 1: a son whose name was Isaac, and Isaac had a 1369 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:14,160 Speaker 1: son whose name was Jacob, and the stories get melded together. Well, 1370 01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:17,760 Speaker 1: when you meld all that together, assuming you don't have 1371 01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:23,920 Speaker 1: divine inspiration, it gets complicated and meaning gets lost there. 1372 01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:26,439 Speaker 1: And that's what you get is the argument of these 1373 01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:30,160 Speaker 1: faith communities that brought these texts together. The Hebrew people 1374 01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:32,879 Speaker 1: who brought their texts together, and then the Christian community 1375 01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:35,360 Speaker 1: that took centuries. By the way, we don't the Bible 1376 01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:38,080 Speaker 1: that we have, that is the New Testament today was 1377 01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,400 Speaker 1: not really kind of brought together, and in the arrangement 1378 01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:45,520 Speaker 1: we have today to almost four hundred, it takes basically 1379 01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:48,360 Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty years for the New Testament to 1380 01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:50,679 Speaker 1: get there. There are books that Christians in the early 1381 01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:54,800 Speaker 1: centuries held us being inspired and and and guiding that 1382 01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:57,600 Speaker 1: are not in your Bible. Books like the Book of 1383 01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:01,800 Speaker 1: James was troublesome, but because the books associated the letters 1384 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:05,080 Speaker 1: associated with Paul seemed to be in juxtaposition to the 1385 01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:08,200 Speaker 1: themes that are found in the Book of James Revelation. 1386 01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:11,960 Speaker 1: Revelation almost didn't make the cut because if you've read 1387 01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,880 Speaker 1: the Book of Revelation, who knows what it means? That 1388 01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:16,639 Speaker 1: was written by a guy in prison on the island 1389 01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,320 Speaker 1: right there, John, right John on patmos So. But the 1390 01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:21,840 Speaker 1: point is it's so out there that many Christians like, 1391 01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:23,960 Speaker 1: this sounds like good stuff, but I'm not sure what 1392 01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:25,559 Speaker 1: it means. It could be interpret a lot of different ways. 1393 01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:26,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we want to keep it in the cannon. 1394 01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:29,920 Speaker 1: So the cannon tics forever for it to be formed. Well, 1395 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,600 Speaker 1: basically three fifty years the Hebrew cannon, it depends on 1396 01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:39,280 Speaker 1: the interpreter, but years for the Hebrew cannon to be finalized. 1397 01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:44,559 Speaker 1: So so your question is excellent, how can you have 1398 01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:49,320 Speaker 1: different interpretations? And the answer is huge, and that is 1399 01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:51,720 Speaker 1: you're going to so me do it this way. I'll 1400 01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:54,439 Speaker 1: give you a short example to show how complex this 1401 01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:57,200 Speaker 1: issue is. I teach American history. Yeah, I know, I 1402 01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,120 Speaker 1: have degrees in theology, but I'm made my way over 1403 01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:03,160 Speaker 1: to history and the historians kind of taken in. They 1404 01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,280 Speaker 1: slap cultural historian tab on me and they're like, hey, 1405 01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:07,360 Speaker 1: you're good, stay over in your corner, all right. So 1406 01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:09,519 Speaker 1: I teach American history and I focused in particularly on 1407 01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:12,800 Speaker 1: the various interpretations of freedom in the years leading up 1408 01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:16,840 Speaker 1: to the Civil War in particular. But you look at slavery, 1409 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,559 Speaker 1: the issue is and it's a thesis that was put 1410 01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:22,920 Speaker 1: out there by a number of historians, uh, and I 1411 01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:24,960 Speaker 1: think it's got a lot of value. Is that what 1412 01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:30,880 Speaker 1: you see is that in America, the interpretation of slavery 1413 01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:34,719 Speaker 1: as America is eight And I'm gonna put quotes around 1414 01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:38,080 Speaker 1: this because please hear the quotes Christian nation. That is 1415 01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:42,559 Speaker 1: the myth that ties Christian primary America together is that 1416 01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,599 Speaker 1: of Christianity. I don't think that wrong, But the point 1417 01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:48,519 Speaker 1: is that story of Christian story. Even people who would 1418 01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:52,519 Speaker 1: never go to a church, we're still familiar with the 1419 01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:55,479 Speaker 1: Biblical Yeah, yeah, I mean, but I mean if you 1420 01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:58,560 Speaker 1: look like the founding of like the Euro American tradition 1421 01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:03,320 Speaker 1: was guided. They knew the stories and the morality was 1422 01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:05,280 Speaker 1: defined many times about the stories that they heard or 1423 01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:09,080 Speaker 1: at least as interpreted. What you find is that Christianity, 1424 01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:12,080 Speaker 1: particularly the Bible. I should say the Bible loses its 1425 01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:16,519 Speaker 1: traction in American culture as a document that is an 1426 01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:20,559 Speaker 1: authority for making policy and determined the most important issues 1427 01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:24,240 Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties. And it's not Darwin's Origin a 1428 01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:27,519 Speaker 1: species that kills it, which comes out in eight it's 1429 01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:31,960 Speaker 1: the problem that the Bible failed to properly answer with 1430 01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:38,160 Speaker 1: one answer only is slavery right or wrong? And what 1431 01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:42,880 Speaker 1: you get then are very I would argue good arguments 1432 01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:48,200 Speaker 1: that say slavery is a biblical institution, that God allowed 1433 01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:51,520 Speaker 1: it to be formulated and created in the Israelite communities, 1434 01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:54,000 Speaker 1: and that God even set rules on it looked from 1435 01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:58,200 Speaker 1: the Leviticus, etcetera, and that the New Testament provided no 1436 01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:04,120 Speaker 1: caveats regarding the extension of slavery forward. In fact, there's 1437 01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:06,160 Speaker 1: a little book that no one ever uses. It's called 1438 01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:09,240 Speaker 1: the Book of Phileman or Philaman. Uh, get bored in church, 1439 01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:10,800 Speaker 1: go read it. You can do it. It just takes 1440 01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,519 Speaker 1: a minute. And it's written to a guy who's lost 1441 01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:16,519 Speaker 1: the slave of a fugitive slave. He ran away, became 1442 01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:21,880 Speaker 1: a Christian, came to Paul. Paul sends him back, buddy, Paul. 1443 01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:27,320 Speaker 1: Paul sends him back to his owner, who's Philamen. The 1444 01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:31,240 Speaker 1: slaves a guy named Ossimus, and says basically, look, Fleaman, 1445 01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:35,400 Speaker 1: you treat him like a Christian brother, and if you can't, 1446 01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:39,599 Speaker 1: you send him back to me. But Paul never says don't. Well, 1447 01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:41,880 Speaker 1: Paul never says free him, keep him as your slave, 1448 01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:43,880 Speaker 1: but treat him like treat him. If you can't do it, 1449 01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:48,280 Speaker 1: sending back. So what many of the Southern theologians argued was, 1450 01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:51,160 Speaker 1: and they were politicians as well, as that slavery had 1451 01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:57,880 Speaker 1: a biblical foundation. Northern increasingly rabbis and Christian ministers began 1452 01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,000 Speaker 1: to argue that the particularly the New tests Men offered critiques, 1453 01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:03,519 Speaker 1: notably that Jesus came to set the captives free, give 1454 01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:07,559 Speaker 1: sight to the blind, and that the Golden Rule was 1455 01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:12,160 Speaker 1: this ultimate challenge to slavery. Why would you enslave another 1456 01:22:12,160 --> 01:22:14,360 Speaker 1: man or woman when you wouldn't want that done to you. 1457 01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:19,000 Speaker 1: So the spirit of the New Testament was against slavery. 1458 01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:20,679 Speaker 1: So by the time we get to the eighteen fifties, 1459 01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:24,320 Speaker 1: the nation is ripping itself apart. The compromisers like Henry 1460 01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,240 Speaker 1: Clay and John C. Calhoun is not a compromiser, but 1461 01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:29,679 Speaker 1: he's dying the whole generation of men that had held 1462 01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,599 Speaker 1: the nation together over this issue. We had the Missouri 1463 01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:36,280 Speaker 1: Compromise of eighteen twenty, where we keep compromising. The Compromise 1464 01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:39,760 Speaker 1: of eighteen fifty brings California in and all those Southwest territories. 1465 01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:43,080 Speaker 1: There's nobody there anymore. And no longer does the Bible 1466 01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:47,639 Speaker 1: give a valid or acceptable answer to the huge question, 1467 01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:53,080 Speaker 1: because there's multiple interpretations about the most critical thing. If 1468 01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:54,920 Speaker 1: you want to put it this way, the country's facing 1469 01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:59,400 Speaker 1: is a black man, a man as in all men 1470 01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:03,759 Speaker 1: are created equal. And if it can't answer that simple question, 1471 01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:06,720 Speaker 1: is the black man a man and his slavery of 1472 01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:10,439 Speaker 1: valid institution or invalid institution, what good is it for 1473 01:23:10,479 --> 01:23:15,240 Speaker 1: making public policy? And so that example demonstrates how our 1474 01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:20,560 Speaker 1: nation itself, which was at least of some historians evangelical 1475 01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,080 Speaker 1: at the time and turned to the Bible as its 1476 01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:26,599 Speaker 1: main authority, couldn't find an answer or by the way 1477 01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:29,439 Speaker 1: of saying it, without multiple answers. And then they go 1478 01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:34,280 Speaker 1: out and kill more of each other than we lost 1479 01:23:34,320 --> 01:23:37,559 Speaker 1: in all of our other wars combined, somewhere between six 1480 01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:41,240 Speaker 1: hundred and six un Now there's a great history, and 1481 01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:43,439 Speaker 1: he's just retired. His name is Martinel. He was at 1482 01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:46,200 Speaker 1: Wheaton and then at Notre Dame. Who uses a line 1483 01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna paraphrase, I'm gonna do a horrible job, he says. Basically, 1484 01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,360 Speaker 1: the matter is decided by the great theologians. William to 1485 01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:56,160 Speaker 1: come to Sherman and Philip Sheridan. If you know those names, 1486 01:23:56,760 --> 01:23:59,920 Speaker 1: you're buffalo stories. You know those names, they're not theologian 1487 01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:02,000 Speaker 1: what they are or as there are men of war. 1488 01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:04,799 Speaker 1: And so the decision about how to interpret the Bible 1489 01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,920 Speaker 1: was decided on the battlefield God. If God is a 1490 01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:11,160 Speaker 1: god of time and history and a providence determined what 1491 01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:17,559 Speaker 1: was the right interpretation. Yeah, he did. He did it 1492 01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,960 Speaker 1: through a proxy. He did it through a proxy for 1493 01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:21,800 Speaker 1: a sun that which is not surprising because he does 1494 01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:25,400 Speaker 1: a lot of things to So. Yeah, so scripture has 1495 01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:28,759 Speaker 1: been interpreted in any different ways, and for our own nation, 1496 01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:38,160 Speaker 1: it points them to a major major issue. Man, Okay, 1497 01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:44,559 Speaker 1: can be back up now. Sorry, Okay, you talk about 1498 01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:48,160 Speaker 1: perceptions of hunters, and when I say you talked about 1499 01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:50,439 Speaker 1: I mean people. Yeah, like your your book is structured 1500 01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:52,879 Speaker 1: and people you have, you know, people that are contributing 1501 01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:54,639 Speaker 1: to your book that this idea the perceptions of hunters 1502 01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:58,320 Speaker 1: comes up. But do you feel that there's a religious 1503 01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:03,479 Speaker 1: perception of hunters that gegorically differs from a secular perception 1504 01:25:03,479 --> 01:25:14,559 Speaker 1: of hunters? Meaning, Okay, our attack attack hunting from a 1505 01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:17,720 Speaker 1: religious perspective. That's probably a better way to get what 1506 01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:19,679 Speaker 1: I'm getting at, because I could do it very well. 1507 01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:21,960 Speaker 1: I could attack hunting from a secular perspective because I 1508 01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:24,760 Speaker 1: would just go borrow all the secular arguments I know 1509 01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:29,519 Speaker 1: that are out there about right suffering of any form 1510 01:25:29,640 --> 01:25:33,920 Speaker 1: and sentient beings and no, no, no no, no, right implications 1511 01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:37,559 Speaker 1: of wildlife management. How hunting has been unregulated, hunting caused 1512 01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:41,120 Speaker 1: all these you know, catastrophic losses in the wildlife world. 1513 01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:44,519 Speaker 1: I could do it all day long. Um, I understand 1514 01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:48,000 Speaker 1: all the arguments. I don't agree with them all. There's 1515 01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:50,280 Speaker 1: a lot of caveats, but I get them. So hit 1516 01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:55,960 Speaker 1: for me what a religious critique of hunting would look like. Okay, 1517 01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:57,760 Speaker 1: so let me answer me answer a question you didn't ask, 1518 01:25:57,760 --> 01:25:59,560 Speaker 1: and then try and get at it. So why is 1519 01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,160 Speaker 1: it even a valley question? Why should we be asking 1520 01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:07,960 Speaker 1: do Christian hunters have why DoD Why do we even 1521 01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,519 Speaker 1: want to talk about them? Did they have a different 1522 01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:12,160 Speaker 1: world view? Well? I think it's I think it's important. 1523 01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:13,599 Speaker 1: Are you asking me to know? I'm saying that's I'm 1524 01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:17,000 Speaker 1: gonna answer. That's rhetorical. Sorry. So in one of the 1525 01:26:17,080 --> 01:26:19,680 Speaker 1: chapters it's called Hunters of the Past and President all right, 1526 01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:22,680 Speaker 1: I look at some sociological instruments. In other words, they 1527 01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:24,800 Speaker 1: went out and the questionnaires about all kinds of things. 1528 01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:27,120 Speaker 1: But one of the things that they point out is 1529 01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:30,000 Speaker 1: if you go through and I analyze the data, is 1530 01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:33,080 Speaker 1: that hunters in America not surprised. And of course we 1531 01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:35,559 Speaker 1: just had the new report that came out. Then hunters 1532 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:39,040 Speaker 1: in America are just we're just losing numbers. We're losing 1533 01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:42,479 Speaker 1: only percentages, but we're losing We're losing hunters. This in 1534 01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:46,280 Speaker 1: the last two years, dramatic loss. And so the question 1535 01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:51,320 Speaker 1: is why is this culture we need to save? How 1536 01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:54,719 Speaker 1: can we encourage the identity or formation of an identity 1537 01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:56,680 Speaker 1: of this culture? And this is, by the way, is 1538 01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:59,720 Speaker 1: this is when the underlying objectives of my book is 1539 01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:02,680 Speaker 1: I want hunters to realize they have an identity. They 1540 01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:04,960 Speaker 1: need to figure it out. But there's no way for 1541 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:09,320 Speaker 1: this culture to survive if they don't have a common identity. 1542 01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:13,040 Speaker 1: They don't identify who they are, what they are, who 1543 01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:16,080 Speaker 1: they're probably what they're doing in a relationship both to 1544 01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:18,599 Speaker 1: the rest of the world and the natural world as well. 1545 01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:23,160 Speaker 1: So you've got to formulate. But by looking at the 1546 01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:26,720 Speaker 1: data that came out and analyzing it, when the fascinating 1547 01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:31,120 Speaker 1: things I discovered was that according to the questionnaires, while 1548 01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:37,880 Speaker 1: hunters are dropping in number, hunters that remain are increasingly religious. 1549 01:27:39,479 --> 01:27:41,160 Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean they go to church all the 1550 01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:44,680 Speaker 1: time and they're the questionnaires address this. Many of them 1551 01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,519 Speaker 1: are just what I would call religious, and that is 1552 01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:52,760 Speaker 1: that they identify themselves as being religious, believe in a God, uh, 1553 01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:55,599 Speaker 1: go to service occasionally, maybe once a year, et cetera. 1554 01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:59,880 Speaker 1: That's what you get then is this very large number 1555 01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:04,439 Speaker 1: of hunters every year in a decreasing minority that are 1556 01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:08,880 Speaker 1: overtly religious. So if we're gonna talk about hunters in America, 1557 01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:11,840 Speaker 1: we need to recognize that more and more hunters, as 1558 01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,599 Speaker 1: the numbers draw, are going to be religious. To continue. 1559 01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:17,679 Speaker 1: Another question is if there's going to be a debate 1560 01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:21,840 Speaker 1: about hunting, whether it's a valid enterprise or not, then 1561 01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:24,360 Speaker 1: there's going to have to be the only philosophical or 1562 01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:27,679 Speaker 1: ethical kind of secular arguments. But if there are people 1563 01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:32,240 Speaker 1: who see themselves as doing something that is religiously approved, 1564 01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:37,120 Speaker 1: divinely appropriated, you're gonna have to argue against that as well. 1565 01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:40,200 Speaker 1: And a secular argument may not cut to the roots 1566 01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:44,080 Speaker 1: of where they see as maybe their prerogative or even 1567 01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:48,479 Speaker 1: their responsibility. Okay, all right, So why is it do 1568 01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:52,679 Speaker 1: hunters see the world differently? Um? The answer I think 1569 01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:58,360 Speaker 1: is complex. The problem I find with the Christian hunter 1570 01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,000 Speaker 1: is to still align from Martinel as well, from a 1571 01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:05,000 Speaker 1: different book he wrote called Scandal the Evangelical Mind, where 1572 01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,519 Speaker 1: he said, the problem with the evangelical mind is there 1573 01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:10,360 Speaker 1: is no evangelical mind. What I would argue is the 1574 01:29:10,360 --> 01:29:13,360 Speaker 1: problem with the Christian hunter is the Christian hunter doesn't think. 1575 01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:17,960 Speaker 1: What do you mean? I mean just that they don't think. 1576 01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:20,479 Speaker 1: In other words, what I found when I interviewed Christian 1577 01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,639 Speaker 1: hunters is they didn't think about being Christian and a hunter. 1578 01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:28,439 Speaker 1: Only a minority did so. While they identify trying the 1579 01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:32,160 Speaker 1: two things together now, so they're not so. While they 1580 01:29:32,439 --> 01:29:37,639 Speaker 1: supposedly have a worldview that should be dominated by their 1581 01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:42,840 Speaker 1: identity as a Christian in particular, they don't actually take 1582 01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:47,559 Speaker 1: that Christianity and think about it in an enterprise that 1583 01:29:47,640 --> 01:29:51,080 Speaker 1: many of them choose as being Yeah, their father, perhaps, 1584 01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,599 Speaker 1: their wife, their spouse, their mother, their whatever they happen 1585 01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:56,320 Speaker 1: to be. But the next thing they're gonna put on 1586 01:29:56,320 --> 01:29:59,960 Speaker 1: theirs and I'm a hunter, but they're Christian, probably was 1587 01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:03,439 Speaker 1: before that. But they don't think about it um and 1588 01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:05,280 Speaker 1: so should they. And so I'm gonna give you a 1589 01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:07,080 Speaker 1: quote here from a book just came out. It's called 1590 01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,840 Speaker 1: Knowing Creation Prospectives and Theology, Philosophy and Science by guy 1591 01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,120 Speaker 1: named Andrew Torrance. Sees the editor and Thomas McCall I 1592 01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:16,439 Speaker 1: like to think this is spectacular because I actually taught 1593 01:30:16,479 --> 01:30:18,960 Speaker 1: Andrew Torrance was human his ninth grade, and so everything 1594 01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:22,280 Speaker 1: he says that's brilliance belongs to me. He's a lecture 1595 01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:27,120 Speaker 1: at the um in Scotland at I think where he's 1596 01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:30,000 Speaker 1: a He's at St. Andrew's University. Okay, So, but he 1597 01:30:30,040 --> 01:30:32,080 Speaker 1: makes this quote, and he's talking about science, but it's 1598 01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:36,480 Speaker 1: applicable to the Christian hunter. The Christian, he writes, believes 1599 01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:40,200 Speaker 1: that the natural world is created, ordered, and maintained by God, 1600 01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:43,479 Speaker 1: who acts in its history in special ways. As I've 1601 01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:46,280 Speaker 1: been arguing, there's no reason for the Christian scientists, nothing 1602 01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,120 Speaker 1: from an Hunter, but in her capacity as a scientist, 1603 01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:51,800 Speaker 1: to think that maintaining those beliefs would get in the 1604 01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:55,960 Speaker 1: way of the scientific task. She should, and now I'm summarizing, 1605 01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,960 Speaker 1: do her job as a scientist, but she still needs 1606 01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:03,080 Speaker 1: to do it as a Christian because, now skipping of 1607 01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:07,240 Speaker 1: page furthermore, the Christian believes that God is actively involved 1608 01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:10,640 Speaker 1: in history, creating a faith that can serve as a 1609 01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:16,639 Speaker 1: witness to God's creative, providential, and redentive activity. For this reason, 1610 01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:19,000 Speaker 1: there should be a difference between the way in which 1611 01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:22,920 Speaker 1: the Christian scientists insert historian Promman Hunter here, and the 1612 01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:26,719 Speaker 1: naturalistic scientists approach and interpret the structure behavior in history 1613 01:31:26,760 --> 01:31:28,960 Speaker 1: in the natural world. If a Christian is truly a 1614 01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:31,720 Speaker 1: Christian and believes that there's a world that has been 1615 01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:35,200 Speaker 1: created shaped, has a narrative that's tied to a god, 1616 01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,400 Speaker 1: that is whatever they see in scripture, then they should 1617 01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:42,400 Speaker 1: act according toly accordingly. So for the critic who turns 1618 01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:45,120 Speaker 1: to the Christian Hunter and wants to argue ethics, they 1619 01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:48,599 Speaker 1: should if they're arguing with an intelligent and reflective Christian 1620 01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:53,720 Speaker 1: Hunter turned then too ethical questions arguments that challenge them 1621 01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:57,599 Speaker 1: the basis of that Christian interpretation. What I discovered is 1622 01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:02,320 Speaker 1: Christian sea hunting a lot of different ways, and actually 1623 01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:05,040 Speaker 1: from critics, they would see it many times just like 1624 01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:09,000 Speaker 1: kind of slavery. And that is what you get are 1625 01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:12,680 Speaker 1: people who say, I look at the story of Genesis 1626 01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:14,800 Speaker 1: one and Genesis too, and what I see is that 1627 01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:19,799 Speaker 1: humans are empowered to have dominion, to be not just simply, 1628 01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:23,360 Speaker 1: if you will, cultivators of the earth, but to subdue it, 1629 01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:27,160 Speaker 1: and therefore I can do with it as I will. 1630 01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,920 Speaker 1: I find these people don't recycle good all right, now, 1631 01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:35,880 Speaker 1: not all of them do so without thinking. Perhaps from 1632 01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:39,040 Speaker 1: the best arguments I've seen is by a um, a 1633 01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:42,320 Speaker 1: theologian and a biologist by the name of Stephen van Tassel, 1634 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:47,000 Speaker 1: and he has he's extraordinarily erudite. Uh. He teaches at 1635 01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:49,040 Speaker 1: a school in Britain, but also works in the West 1636 01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:51,720 Speaker 1: here in America dealing with rotents. By the way he 1637 01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:55,360 Speaker 1: deals with his stick stick is how do you kill things? 1638 01:32:55,439 --> 01:32:58,920 Speaker 1: Are a pest um? So he does it from a 1639 01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:03,519 Speaker 1: very erudite approach, but it's rare. The problem is when 1640 01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:06,880 Speaker 1: you begin to question how then humans should relate to 1641 01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:11,040 Speaker 1: the natural world. If you believe in the Christian view 1642 01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:16,679 Speaker 1: that somehow the incarnation of Jesus Christ as the Divine 1643 01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:21,120 Speaker 1: now within the human somehow, giving both approval to the 1644 01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:24,719 Speaker 1: divine creation that we know however that happened, but also 1645 01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:29,400 Speaker 1: that the sacrifice of that lamb on the cross somehow 1646 01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:33,679 Speaker 1: brings about a new reality. Does that new reality of 1647 01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:39,000 Speaker 1: the crucifixion and the resurrection change how we should relate 1648 01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:41,799 Speaker 1: to the natural world. Does it bring about a new covenant? 1649 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:47,000 Speaker 1: Doesn't bring about a new relationship to animals? Two to 1650 01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:49,719 Speaker 1: the Flora and fauna of the earth if it does, 1651 01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:53,080 Speaker 1: and it particularly many times critics of of of hunting 1652 01:33:53,160 --> 01:33:56,160 Speaker 1: turned to the Book of Isaiah and they see this 1653 01:33:56,280 --> 01:33:59,800 Speaker 1: kind of messianic where the lamb lies down with the lion, 1654 01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:02,320 Speaker 1: that this is the way it was and this is 1655 01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:05,760 Speaker 1: the way it should be. They're going to argue that 1656 01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:08,439 Speaker 1: you are a new creation in Christ. So the world 1657 01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:11,960 Speaker 1: also participates in that covenant, just like the world participated 1658 01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:15,360 Speaker 1: with the covenant and Noah's covenant with God. So it 1659 01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:17,920 Speaker 1: wasn't just Noah who was going to be protected from 1660 01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,519 Speaker 1: the flood, but the earth was, and the animals are 1661 01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:23,519 Speaker 1: going to be protected from that kind of flood uh 1662 01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:28,080 Speaker 1: and destruction. So that covenant extends then to the entire world, 1663 01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:32,439 Speaker 1: natural world, animals, etcetera. So stop killing animals. Now that's 1664 01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:36,160 Speaker 1: a horribly simplified view. But if your creation, new creation 1665 01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:41,200 Speaker 1: in Christ, quit sending live properly inappropriately with your fellow humans, 1666 01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:44,479 Speaker 1: and live appropriately in a non violent way with the 1667 01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:48,800 Speaker 1: flora and fauna around you. But the problem is the 1668 01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:51,840 Speaker 1: reality problem is a number of things. One is, does 1669 01:34:51,880 --> 01:35:00,000 Speaker 1: that mean then that I have to make large cats vegetarians? 1670 01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:03,920 Speaker 1: Is the natural world of view a window through which 1671 01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:06,160 Speaker 1: I can see the divine plan. That's been a long 1672 01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:10,240 Speaker 1: held claim of Christianity. It's called natural theology. That I 1673 01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:12,120 Speaker 1: can look at the world and I can see, in 1674 01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:16,080 Speaker 1: its magnificence and its complexity and its diversity, the hand 1675 01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:20,840 Speaker 1: of a divine and providential, divine hands working in this 1676 01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:24,320 Speaker 1: world that, even if I don't know or can't see 1677 01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:27,160 Speaker 1: a God, the magnificence, the beauty that I see when 1678 01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:29,639 Speaker 1: I see a waterfall or a mountain, when I'm sitting 1679 01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:32,240 Speaker 1: up there and not having seen any game animals, moves 1680 01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:34,640 Speaker 1: me to what we might call a religious experience, the 1681 01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:38,720 Speaker 1: idea there's something greater than me, a greater than human reality. 1682 01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:41,880 Speaker 1: So I may not know that there's three and one trinity, 1683 01:35:41,920 --> 01:35:44,439 Speaker 1: I know that there's this thing, this greater than thing, 1684 01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:48,439 Speaker 1: greater than me, thing that has provided, that has created me, 1685 01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:51,719 Speaker 1: brought me into being in some fashion, whether evolutionary theory 1686 01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:56,040 Speaker 1: or whatever you have. So if there's a new creation, 1687 01:35:57,320 --> 01:36:00,559 Speaker 1: is therefore the predatory world that is reality that all 1688 01:36:00,680 --> 01:36:04,160 Speaker 1: things consume all things. We die, and if they can 1689 01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:06,320 Speaker 1: get to the steel, they're end up, worms are gonna 1690 01:36:06,320 --> 01:36:09,960 Speaker 1: get me, etcetera. We all get eaten. Is that not 1691 01:36:10,120 --> 01:36:13,559 Speaker 1: really God's plan. And if that's so, isn't this world 1692 01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:16,400 Speaker 1: then something that's not really the creator God's isn't this 1693 01:36:18,240 --> 01:36:21,240 Speaker 1: and some nastick if you read, for instance, the essay 1694 01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:26,760 Speaker 1: by Nathan um And and the question is where do 1695 01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:29,920 Speaker 1: we go from here? Is the argument that we're supposed 1696 01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:31,920 Speaker 1: to be a new creation, and that we're supposed to 1697 01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:34,360 Speaker 1: see the world, the natural world, a new way live 1698 01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:38,840 Speaker 1: with humans and animals, and a new covenant of peace, tranquility, 1699 01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:42,599 Speaker 1: and of love. Most importantly, does that deny the world 1700 01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:48,200 Speaker 1: we know? We'll see answer. I don't know. I just 1701 01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:51,559 Speaker 1: write about this stuff. No, for me, it's it's a 1702 01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:54,679 Speaker 1: difficult question because I think about this and I look 1703 01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:59,519 Speaker 1: around and I see, I see that the world does consume. 1704 01:37:00,479 --> 01:37:05,840 Speaker 1: It just does. And I, as a hunter, feel I'll 1705 01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:12,080 Speaker 1: admit euphoria when I am, if you want to call 1706 01:37:12,120 --> 01:37:15,759 Speaker 1: it successful, when I kill, and at the same moment, 1707 01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:20,920 Speaker 1: I feel absolute guilt and loss when I look at 1708 01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:25,320 Speaker 1: that which was once beautiful no longer moving. I feel 1709 01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:27,760 Speaker 1: pride when I feed friends and family with the meat 1710 01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:31,240 Speaker 1: that I've taken. Ill even I even have pride when 1711 01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:33,880 Speaker 1: I look at the furs on my floor. The I 1712 01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:36,720 Speaker 1: don't have any great trophies, but the taxidermy amounts on 1713 01:37:36,760 --> 01:37:39,680 Speaker 1: my wall. I tell the stories about those things, and 1714 01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,519 Speaker 1: for that moment me, it's kind of sacramental that animal 1715 01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,600 Speaker 1: lives again when I tell that story. It's why to me, 1716 01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:47,720 Speaker 1: taxidermy amounts, by the way, mean nothing if if you 1717 01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:50,360 Speaker 1: find him in a junk store, because there's no story 1718 01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:53,120 Speaker 1: attached to them. There's no reality. That's no longer being 1719 01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:57,040 Speaker 1: it's no longer being associated with them. It's just plastic 1720 01:37:57,120 --> 01:37:59,719 Speaker 1: form with first stretched on it. But for me, all 1721 01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:02,240 Speaker 1: these things are going on, and as I read the 1722 01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:04,760 Speaker 1: scriptures there, they don't answer. To be honest, a lot 1723 01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:10,200 Speaker 1: of great questions they there's challenges, but there's a multiplicity 1724 01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:14,599 Speaker 1: of responses. For me, what I take away from it 1725 01:38:14,720 --> 01:38:16,680 Speaker 1: is I look to the natural world, a look to 1726 01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:20,640 Speaker 1: what moves me as a hunter who sees himself as 1727 01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:22,320 Speaker 1: one of his. You know, I hope when they put 1728 01:38:22,400 --> 01:38:25,080 Speaker 1: my gravestone it will be something like hopefully you know, 1729 01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:32,400 Speaker 1: faithful husband, good friend, teacher, hopefully good teacher, and hunter. 1730 01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:35,960 Speaker 1: Those four things would encapsulate who I am in so 1731 01:38:36,040 --> 01:38:39,240 Speaker 1: many different ways. I've hunted for grades, I've hunted for 1732 01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:42,320 Speaker 1: all kinds of facts and data in history, and I'm 1733 01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:45,519 Speaker 1: hunted for animals. But with that moment of gain, there 1734 01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:48,720 Speaker 1: comes loss. And I think that I can find an 1735 01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:53,320 Speaker 1: argument for hunting in the Bible, but it requires a 1736 01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:57,840 Speaker 1: hunting that is responsible, that is reflective, that looks then 1737 01:38:57,880 --> 01:39:00,360 Speaker 1: to the health of the entire go lee pulled on 1738 01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:04,480 Speaker 1: in biotic community, and that my failure to be responsible 1739 01:39:05,040 --> 01:39:08,320 Speaker 1: in both the kill, the hunt, and for simply trying 1740 01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:11,920 Speaker 1: to find the good of this earth. If I failed 1741 01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:16,840 Speaker 1: to do that, that's a sin, because that's a crime 1742 01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:20,559 Speaker 1: against what I know to be true and the God 1743 01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:24,040 Speaker 1: who gave this beauty in this world. So in the 1744 01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:28,000 Speaker 1: act of killing, consuming, I hope that I'm bringing life. 1745 01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:33,320 Speaker 1: Um And there's an article or a chapter who by 1746 01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:37,080 Speaker 1: a kind of Jim Tantalo, and Jim argues that even 1747 01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:41,280 Speaker 1: in the tragedy of death, I am transformed. If I'm 1748 01:39:41,320 --> 01:39:45,080 Speaker 1: reflective as an hunter, I'm transformed because in the moment 1749 01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:47,840 Speaker 1: of death, of killing something, I live more than I 1750 01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:51,439 Speaker 1: live before, because I recognize the reality of death for 1751 01:39:51,479 --> 01:39:56,519 Speaker 1: me to come. Yeah for for the hunter, because just 1752 01:39:56,680 --> 01:39:59,320 Speaker 1: as I kill, and just as I consume with joy, 1753 01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:03,719 Speaker 1: with poignancy, with sorrow, so I too will be consumed, 1754 01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:09,000 Speaker 1: whether by aberrant cells, clogged arteries, are something more violent, 1755 01:40:09,720 --> 01:40:13,400 Speaker 1: it's our end for the Christian. The hope is that 1756 01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:17,200 Speaker 1: there's something more. Because the covenant that embraced humanity in 1757 01:40:17,360 --> 01:40:21,080 Speaker 1: the very beginning of Genesis, one that embraces humanity and 1758 01:40:21,160 --> 01:40:24,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what the woe with Noah uh in Genesis, 1759 01:40:25,360 --> 01:40:30,160 Speaker 1: then is also the covenant that is going to embrace Christians, 1760 01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:32,719 Speaker 1: and if you will, in the sacrifice of Christ and resurrection, 1761 01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:36,240 Speaker 1: but also in Revelation, all those covenants also embraced the 1762 01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:39,799 Speaker 1: entire creative world. It's extended to the earth, to the soil, 1763 01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:43,240 Speaker 1: to the animals, to the vegetation. There's a redemptive process 1764 01:40:43,280 --> 01:40:47,360 Speaker 1: that goes on, and right now this is what we have. 1765 01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:55,400 Speaker 1: If I failed to be responsible, reflective, serious, right now, 1766 01:40:55,760 --> 01:41:00,439 Speaker 1: there's something that should also be going on. So that 1767 01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:03,000 Speaker 1: leads me to diet, tribes and class about other things. 1768 01:41:03,040 --> 01:41:05,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, well, I want to make sure I'm getting 1769 01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:08,080 Speaker 1: your last point that you say, right now this is 1770 01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:12,439 Speaker 1: what we have, meaning that you would feel is not 1771 01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:16,960 Speaker 1: the one. Can't just trash this knowing that you have 1772 01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:20,640 Speaker 1: the afterlife to fall back on. When I was a 1773 01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:23,960 Speaker 1: kid in church, we used to sing this song. This 1774 01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:27,320 Speaker 1: world is not my home. I'm just passing through. My 1775 01:41:27,400 --> 01:41:30,160 Speaker 1: treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue. The angels 1776 01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:33,479 Speaker 1: beckon me from Heaven's open door, and I can't feel 1777 01:41:33,520 --> 01:41:37,200 Speaker 1: at home in this world anymore. It's a great moving song, 1778 01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:39,640 Speaker 1: and I sang it for you know when I was 1779 01:41:39,640 --> 01:41:42,439 Speaker 1: in church as a kid. But now I think about it, 1780 01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:46,599 Speaker 1: that's not right. This is a creative world for me. 1781 01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:52,880 Speaker 1: It is a window to the divine plan. Yes it's predatory, 1782 01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:55,639 Speaker 1: but at the same time, out of death comes new life, 1783 01:41:56,160 --> 01:41:58,240 Speaker 1: whether it be Christ's story or what we see in 1784 01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:02,200 Speaker 1: the world around us. And so this is my home. 1785 01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:05,640 Speaker 1: I'm not just passing through. If this is where I 1786 01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:09,640 Speaker 1: have my beginning, whatever is beyond this life has to 1787 01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:14,400 Speaker 1: be built on this experience right here, right now. This 1788 01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:17,559 Speaker 1: is where I'm being formed. This is where I'm finding truth. 1789 01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:20,920 Speaker 1: There may be truth beyond, but this is what I've 1790 01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:23,880 Speaker 1: got and it can't just simply be a waste of time. 1791 01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:30,200 Speaker 1: So this world is my home. I'm not passing through. 1792 01:42:30,320 --> 01:42:34,320 Speaker 1: My treasures are here and beyond. Have you ever heard 1793 01:42:34,360 --> 01:42:42,800 Speaker 1: anyone talk about extinction, meaning that through human actions we 1794 01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:46,040 Speaker 1: would drive species extinction. Have you ever heard anyone talk 1795 01:42:46,080 --> 01:42:51,360 Speaker 1: about that and talk about Noah's Ark? Oh? Yeah, the 1796 01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:55,439 Speaker 1: pains that people went through to make sure that we 1797 01:42:55,479 --> 01:43:00,080 Speaker 1: were not losing animals. Oh, whoa, that's interesting. Oh I 1798 01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:03,439 Speaker 1: see what you're saying. Um, No, I never have. It's like, no, 1799 01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:07,120 Speaker 1: we will save two of everything. Yes, if it's result, 1800 01:43:07,120 --> 01:43:08,679 Speaker 1: I'll shoot it and I'll put it in a museum. 1801 01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:12,640 Speaker 1: The elker disappearing, But dad gambit I saw when I 1802 01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:15,720 Speaker 1: shot it. We'll put it in the Bronx Zoo. That's 1803 01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:17,839 Speaker 1: not an idea I've ever heard anyone bringer. I haven't. 1804 01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:20,360 Speaker 1: Actually now. It could be because I just don't read 1805 01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:24,880 Speaker 1: widely enough, but I haven't. Um. I got another one 1806 01:43:24,880 --> 01:43:28,120 Speaker 1: for you. Here's no and this is from this from 1807 01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:31,439 Speaker 1: your own Um, this is like an idea that comes 1808 01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:35,520 Speaker 1: up in your own book. How could a Christian reconcile 1809 01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:40,840 Speaker 1: the tension of embracing the bloody wild? I guess your 1810 01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:47,320 Speaker 1: words while finding salvation and a domesticating religion found by pastures. 1811 01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:51,559 Speaker 1: It's a hard question. And if you notice, I don't 1812 01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:56,320 Speaker 1: answer it, or you don't, I don't not me personally. Um, 1813 01:43:56,479 --> 01:44:00,120 Speaker 1: is there even attention there? Like do you be like 1814 01:44:00,360 --> 01:44:06,080 Speaker 1: I love the wild, like the fecundity and blood of 1815 01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:10,680 Speaker 1: it all? Right, Um, does that mean you're turning your 1816 01:44:10,720 --> 01:44:13,479 Speaker 1: back on this like pastoral history of of of the 1817 01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:21,719 Speaker 1: the early Christians, right, And the nineteen eighties and nine ninies, 1818 01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:25,439 Speaker 1: feminism reached into theology and women began to want to 1819 01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:28,920 Speaker 1: look for their places in Christianity. The problem is Christianity 1820 01:44:28,960 --> 01:44:32,000 Speaker 1: is the patriarchal religion, and it had been in patriarchal societies. 1821 01:44:32,360 --> 01:44:33,960 Speaker 1: So what they had to do is they had to 1822 01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:37,320 Speaker 1: go look, and they went back and they found women 1823 01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:40,559 Speaker 1: as best they could, who were influential in their own realms, 1824 01:44:40,720 --> 01:44:43,240 Speaker 1: who thought amazing things, and there was this kind of 1825 01:44:43,280 --> 01:44:48,600 Speaker 1: revisionist history. As a hunter and I read a religion 1826 01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:53,680 Speaker 1: that's based upon agriculture, domestication and pastors, I had to 1827 01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:56,120 Speaker 1: do that and kind of go back and try and 1828 01:44:56,200 --> 01:45:00,799 Speaker 1: find those spots because it's a minority perspective at least today, 1829 01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:03,080 Speaker 1: and I think it always has been, except in America. 1830 01:45:03,600 --> 01:45:06,360 Speaker 1: If you want to argue, basically during the mid nineteenth century, 1831 01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:11,120 Speaker 1: as we expanded westward, because we've been civilized, an urbanite, 1832 01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:14,120 Speaker 1: one could argue at least since the end of the 1833 01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:17,360 Speaker 1: medieval period and even then prior to that, when people 1834 01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,720 Speaker 1: got the hunt officially, of course we're royalty and the nobility, 1835 01:45:20,760 --> 01:45:25,160 Speaker 1: so that brief period. I have to look for those 1836 01:45:25,479 --> 01:45:29,120 Speaker 1: those answers to the question is this is there a 1837 01:45:29,240 --> 01:45:31,080 Speaker 1: tension between my religion or not? And I try and 1838 01:45:31,080 --> 01:45:34,160 Speaker 1: find those examples where there's not tension. Because in in 1839 01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:37,000 Speaker 1: the book there's a guy that comments, an American observer 1840 01:45:38,200 --> 01:45:42,120 Speaker 1: goes out to the edge, okay, the land of Boone 1841 01:45:43,040 --> 01:45:45,479 Speaker 1: and points out that man, guys that get out on 1842 01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:53,559 Speaker 1: the edge morally like, in a religious sense, they fall apart. Yeah, 1843 01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:56,200 Speaker 1: that was these guys that flirt with the flirt with 1844 01:45:56,240 --> 01:45:59,240 Speaker 1: the wilderness. The Puritans didn't like that. Puritans are agricultural. 1845 01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:01,600 Speaker 1: Let's just store the forest, right, burn the tree so 1846 01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:05,040 Speaker 1: we can have great agricultural land. Hunters were always problematic. 1847 01:46:05,160 --> 01:46:07,680 Speaker 1: They weren't in church on Sunday. They hung out with 1848 01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:10,639 Speaker 1: the Native Americans. They were always on the edge. They 1849 01:46:10,640 --> 01:46:15,320 Speaker 1: didn't come, uh, confine themselves to behavior that society approved of. 1850 01:46:16,680 --> 01:46:19,479 Speaker 1: Does does that mean that they could be not Christian? 1851 01:46:22,200 --> 01:46:24,479 Speaker 1: It depends how Christian was interpreted at the time. You 1852 01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:26,720 Speaker 1: ment being on church on Sunday, well, little house on 1853 01:46:26,760 --> 01:46:30,560 Speaker 1: the prayer there, damn sure, Christian, there's a there's the 1854 01:46:30,600 --> 01:46:33,160 Speaker 1: thing I mentioned. I feel like I talked about this 1855 01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:35,000 Speaker 1: in my Buffalo book, but I can't remember. And it's 1856 01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:38,800 Speaker 1: a letter when So, when the conquisators are in the 1857 01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:44,160 Speaker 1: American Southwest and they're, you know, subjugating Native Americans and 1858 01:46:44,200 --> 01:46:46,439 Speaker 1: trying to introduce them to like how you're supposed to be, 1859 01:46:47,479 --> 01:46:52,120 Speaker 1: someone writes back a letter to Spain complaining about the hunters, 1860 01:46:53,200 --> 01:46:56,240 Speaker 1: saying like, I don't get it. We've given them livestock, 1861 01:46:56,640 --> 01:47:00,240 Speaker 1: We've given them home, we taught them how to farm. 1862 01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:04,040 Speaker 1: They have all the stuff here, like, all the components 1863 01:47:04,080 --> 01:47:09,200 Speaker 1: are in place. But these people get wind overheard of 1864 01:47:09,240 --> 01:47:13,439 Speaker 1: Buffalo somewhere and they are gone, and it doesn't make 1865 01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:16,680 Speaker 1: any sense. It's almost like they want to be doing this. 1866 01:47:19,360 --> 01:47:23,000 Speaker 1: We've eliminated the need, so why if you can go 1867 01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:27,360 Speaker 1: buy beef at your corner store. They're like, what was 1868 01:47:27,520 --> 01:47:30,160 Speaker 1: what is the allure? What exactly is the problem with 1869 01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:34,360 Speaker 1: you people? And again I think that most anyone who's 1870 01:47:34,400 --> 01:47:41,240 Speaker 1: hunted and is again reflective they're looking at things, would 1871 01:47:41,360 --> 01:47:45,320 Speaker 1: argue that there's so much more than the acquisition of meat. 1872 01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:49,000 Speaker 1: And hunting. And I think some would argue that it's 1873 01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:52,680 Speaker 1: a religious experience. Now by religious, I don't mean like 1874 01:47:52,760 --> 01:47:54,640 Speaker 1: you you know, it's it's like going to church and 1875 01:47:54,640 --> 01:47:59,400 Speaker 1: at the homily. But in that in that moment of 1876 01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:03,479 Speaker 1: again pursuit the shot, the death and it may not 1877 01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:06,280 Speaker 1: be a prompt death, but hopefully were short in humane, 1878 01:48:06,680 --> 01:48:09,080 Speaker 1: that there is a sense of something greater than you, 1879 01:48:09,960 --> 01:48:13,840 Speaker 1: a power that's more powerful than you, a greater than 1880 01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:20,560 Speaker 1: human reality. And if you encounter that, you want to 1881 01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:25,639 Speaker 1: encounter it again. As at St. Paul's Cathedral in London 1882 01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:29,000 Speaker 1: one time and we were visiting and there was gonna 1883 01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:31,959 Speaker 1: be a service that evening and the choir was practicing 1884 01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:34,960 Speaker 1: as adults and children, and the place was fairly empty 1885 01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:42,360 Speaker 1: and they were practicing, and it was a religious experience. 1886 01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:46,439 Speaker 1: I was moved out of myself. What took place. The 1887 01:48:46,560 --> 01:48:51,680 Speaker 1: sounds it was, it was intoxicating, it was goose bump lee. 1888 01:48:51,880 --> 01:48:54,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to call it. It was something truly manniccent, 1889 01:48:54,880 --> 01:48:58,840 Speaker 1: and I wanted to recapture that every single time that's 1890 01:48:58,880 --> 01:49:01,439 Speaker 1: a religious experience, it's it's a sense of something greater 1891 01:49:01,520 --> 01:49:04,519 Speaker 1: than us. It's a sign. I would argue that there's 1892 01:49:04,560 --> 01:49:09,120 Speaker 1: a divine And I think hunters, if they are reflective 1893 01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:12,360 Speaker 1: and not just something pumping fists and slapping hands when 1894 01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:16,519 Speaker 1: they have success, or even when they fail, when they 1895 01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:22,200 Speaker 1: simply surrender themselves to nature, will begin to hopefully access 1896 01:49:22,360 --> 01:49:28,640 Speaker 1: that religious experience. So for me, that's addictive. If I 1897 01:49:28,720 --> 01:49:31,040 Speaker 1: went to a concert and I thought, man, that was 1898 01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:34,200 Speaker 1: the greatest Hi, not from you know, contact, talking about Hi, 1899 01:49:34,560 --> 01:49:37,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't I want to go to another concert? If I 1900 01:49:37,640 --> 01:49:39,519 Speaker 1: get a sense of the divine? Wouldn't I want to 1901 01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:42,639 Speaker 1: do that again? And a reality that you can't access 1902 01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:46,439 Speaker 1: by eating murders here or even going to church, because 1903 01:49:46,479 --> 01:49:49,479 Speaker 1: doesn't church essentially just try and grab that experience from 1904 01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:52,320 Speaker 1: many different types of denominations, and like, let's reproduce it. 1905 01:49:53,120 --> 01:49:56,000 Speaker 1: Let's have this music, let's have this coral arrangement, let's 1906 01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:59,439 Speaker 1: have this sermon, Let's have the great vaults right above 1907 01:49:59,520 --> 01:50:02,040 Speaker 1: us with the man magnificent building that tries to make 1908 01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:05,800 Speaker 1: you feel that religious experience. You can't be religious all 1909 01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:08,880 Speaker 1: the time, you just can't be. You can't always live 1910 01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:10,880 Speaker 1: in it. But hunting, to me is a religious experience. 1911 01:50:11,160 --> 01:50:14,400 Speaker 1: Some people starry interrupting. Some people have religious experiences at 1912 01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:21,680 Speaker 1: rock concerts. I'm not as a as a whole, but 1913 01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:23,600 Speaker 1: again but not from the high. But I feel like 1914 01:50:24,360 --> 01:50:28,439 Speaker 1: music can transports you. Sure it can. It can give 1915 01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:31,880 Speaker 1: you what you just described exactly what I might get 1916 01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:35,559 Speaker 1: when I'm out there on a unsuccessful or successful turkey hunt. 1917 01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:39,519 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I was listening to Rogan's podcast the 1918 01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:42,200 Speaker 1: other day and he had on Howard bloom Who's um 1919 01:50:42,520 --> 01:50:47,639 Speaker 1: this fascinating just certifiable genius, and he has tired, he's dead. 1920 01:50:48,400 --> 01:50:54,160 Speaker 1: Howard bloom Um specifically has researched these experiences that you 1921 01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:58,320 Speaker 1: are speaking of, this religious experience, this greater than you 1922 01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:02,160 Speaker 1: moment um, like this cohesion um that can happen in 1923 01:51:02,280 --> 01:51:06,479 Speaker 1: mass groups also such as concerts, rock concerts, and how 1924 01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:09,880 Speaker 1: they just grab hold of you and create this moment 1925 01:51:09,960 --> 01:51:12,680 Speaker 1: you'd like to replicate. Um. You know you saw that 1926 01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:16,439 Speaker 1: in you know, certain speeches like he brought up you know, 1927 01:51:16,600 --> 01:51:19,680 Speaker 1: Hitler and talking about how the fervor of grabbing that 1928 01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:24,280 Speaker 1: that audience, um, and people just get addicted to that experience. 1929 01:51:24,320 --> 01:51:27,519 Speaker 1: So absolutely, yeah. And the question is in that case, 1930 01:51:27,600 --> 01:51:32,080 Speaker 1: the experience of scapegoading is the experience then something that 1931 01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:34,120 Speaker 1: is a valid experience? All Right, so that's where you 1932 01:51:34,120 --> 01:51:38,040 Speaker 1: begin to be reflective. Is what I'm doing something that 1933 01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:44,040 Speaker 1: is appropriate, is right, is redeeming, is fulfilling, is making 1934 01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:46,960 Speaker 1: me in the world. There's a utilitarian proprocious sorts, but 1935 01:51:47,120 --> 01:51:51,799 Speaker 1: making us better, making us happy. I think the Christian 1936 01:51:51,880 --> 01:51:54,680 Speaker 1: hunter and the hunter in general can make arguments like that, 1937 01:51:54,800 --> 01:51:58,479 Speaker 1: but they have to be careful. Um. I think when 1938 01:51:58,520 --> 01:52:02,519 Speaker 1: you mentioned how you have to be that reflective, I 1939 01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:05,400 Speaker 1: almost see it as achieving like a sense of purity 1940 01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:08,840 Speaker 1: to the moment. So I think there is like the 1941 01:52:09,000 --> 01:52:11,560 Speaker 1: validity in that. Yeah, I mean you see that in 1942 01:52:11,720 --> 01:52:14,240 Speaker 1: some some of them argue. David Peterson's famous for doing 1943 01:52:14,280 --> 01:52:16,679 Speaker 1: this right. So there's like hunters, the hunter, the hunter, 1944 01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:19,360 Speaker 1: and writer David Peterson exactly. So there's a hunter and 1945 01:52:19,400 --> 01:52:23,240 Speaker 1: then there's the right hunter who is reflective. He draws 1946 01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:24,800 Speaker 1: some he draws a lot of lines. Oh he does. 1947 01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:26,920 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of hunters who aren't hunters right. 1948 01:52:27,120 --> 01:52:29,880 Speaker 1: Might might just be one and maybe you'm my only 1949 01:52:30,439 --> 01:52:32,280 Speaker 1: but that kind of approach, and so you begin to 1950 01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:35,280 Speaker 1: draw those lines because you begin to say there is 1951 01:52:35,360 --> 01:52:38,360 Speaker 1: a better way, because there's a better way that makes 1952 01:52:38,439 --> 01:52:41,599 Speaker 1: you better, the world better, whether it be a traditional 1953 01:52:41,680 --> 01:52:44,479 Speaker 1: hunter with a bow, whether you keep seeking the greater 1954 01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:48,280 Speaker 1: challenge where you always allow of course, fair chase, you 1955 01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:51,439 Speaker 1: always allow the animal out. You only hunt public land 1956 01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:53,800 Speaker 1: for me people who have that option. So you find 1957 01:52:53,840 --> 01:52:57,800 Speaker 1: the other challenge, that pursuit of again the experience, but 1958 01:52:57,960 --> 01:53:02,720 Speaker 1: also something that you think may you better, transforms you 1959 01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:05,560 Speaker 1: into the better version of you and hopefully extends that. 1960 01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:10,120 Speaker 1: Then that's important. That makes you better than you then 1961 01:53:10,200 --> 01:53:13,240 Speaker 1: now right now? Not you better than everyone else? No, no, no, 1962 01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:17,240 Speaker 1: And it makes that that makes you a better person 1963 01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:22,439 Speaker 1: relative to your own experience right right. All the leopole 1964 01:53:22,439 --> 01:53:24,760 Speaker 1: would argue, are you making about it community better? Are 1965 01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:26,439 Speaker 1: you making healthy because, by the way, that's gonna have 1966 01:53:26,479 --> 01:53:31,920 Speaker 1: repercussions for you down the line. Ethically, are you being okay? 1967 01:53:32,120 --> 01:53:34,840 Speaker 1: Are you following fair chase? Are you seeking the good 1968 01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:37,759 Speaker 1: of the population, whether it be trimming down the numbers 1969 01:53:38,040 --> 01:53:40,920 Speaker 1: or allowing those numbers to recuperate. As a Christian, are 1970 01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:43,960 Speaker 1: you doing something that seems to be within the divine 1971 01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:47,720 Speaker 1: framework set up? Are you showing appreciation for the life 1972 01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:50,040 Speaker 1: that was there? You couldn't make that life, but you 1973 01:53:50,160 --> 01:53:53,280 Speaker 1: just took it. Are you showing you appreciation for the 1974 01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:57,160 Speaker 1: creator for the founder, if you will, are you recognizing 1975 01:53:57,240 --> 01:54:00,560 Speaker 1: the gift that was that animal? Do you continue to 1976 01:54:00,720 --> 01:54:04,400 Speaker 1: give sharing? I think so very important. Game dinners I 1977 01:54:04,479 --> 01:54:07,680 Speaker 1: think are really pivotal and sacramental events for Christian That's 1978 01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:10,000 Speaker 1: an interesting thing that I had never thought of. You 1979 01:54:10,080 --> 01:54:12,719 Speaker 1: talked ab up, was like that, there's a sacramental quality 1980 01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:15,040 Speaker 1: to hunting, but there's nothing like cooking your own food. 1981 01:54:15,240 --> 01:54:18,680 Speaker 1: But there's nothing like cooking it for someone else. And 1982 01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:21,560 Speaker 1: if you do it in the context of this is 1983 01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:25,280 Speaker 1: a gift from the creator, how much more so, and 1984 01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:28,040 Speaker 1: respect the life that was there. I know guys who 1985 01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:29,800 Speaker 1: want do taxing me right, they want they want to 1986 01:54:29,800 --> 01:54:32,760 Speaker 1: have them out. I disagree with that because I think 1987 01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:34,880 Speaker 1: I continue to give life to that experience by telling 1988 01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:38,480 Speaker 1: the story. But I understand to respect that because they 1989 01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:42,520 Speaker 1: do it out of respect for this beautiful creature. They 1990 01:54:42,720 --> 01:54:47,360 Speaker 1: don't choose not to have out of respect. Yeah, there are, 1991 01:54:47,600 --> 01:54:50,520 Speaker 1: Um it's silly to me. It's silly to me when 1992 01:54:50,560 --> 01:54:52,200 Speaker 1: someone's like, oh, I leave the antlers in the woods, 1993 01:54:52,200 --> 01:54:55,320 Speaker 1: because I'm like, but why not appreciate the whole thing? Exactly? 1994 01:54:55,400 --> 01:54:57,760 Speaker 1: But here's this thing that you could always have, right, 1995 01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:02,240 Speaker 1: But remember, But like I'm open, I don't agree with it, 1996 01:55:02,440 --> 01:55:04,720 Speaker 1: but I think that people arrive at these decisions in 1997 01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:08,120 Speaker 1: the way that that come from meaning and come from 1998 01:55:08,200 --> 01:55:10,960 Speaker 1: someplace honest. So whether I look at some of these 1999 01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:15,360 Speaker 1: things that people do um in order to acknowledge the 2000 01:55:15,440 --> 01:55:19,960 Speaker 1: importance of what happened does not light right. And people 2001 01:55:20,040 --> 01:55:24,000 Speaker 1: come up with these these personal ceremonies, um, a lot 2002 01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:27,080 Speaker 1: of them I look on like not for me, but 2003 01:55:27,240 --> 01:55:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm glad you did something and I'm glad you arrived 2004 01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:34,520 Speaker 1: somewhere because what we both see is it something important 2005 01:55:34,600 --> 01:55:43,520 Speaker 1: is happening here. So I understand the motivation. Alright, man, Michelle, 2006 01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:46,480 Speaker 1: We're gonna get around and make sure everybody knows what 2007 01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:49,880 Speaker 1: the book is. But Michelle, you got any rapper, uppers, concluders, 2008 01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:54,120 Speaker 1: goals and thoughts. Oh my gosh, this has been super interesting, 2009 01:55:54,480 --> 01:55:58,600 Speaker 1: more questions than answers, and really just I would like 2010 01:55:58,720 --> 01:56:01,000 Speaker 1: to just conclude by saying that I can't wait to 2011 01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:06,560 Speaker 1: read your book, and you know, really kind of trying 2012 01:56:06,600 --> 01:56:09,640 Speaker 1: to wrap my head around, you know, my motivations and 2013 01:56:10,160 --> 01:56:13,080 Speaker 1: I've thought a lot about that aspect um my motivations 2014 01:56:13,120 --> 01:56:17,640 Speaker 1: for hunting, and um, just what's going to keep me 2015 01:56:17,720 --> 01:56:19,960 Speaker 1: getting out there. And I do see a lot of 2016 01:56:20,080 --> 01:56:22,960 Speaker 1: alignment with kind of what the message you've shared here today, 2017 01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:28,400 Speaker 1: So thank you. M Yeah, I can say a couple 2018 01:56:28,400 --> 01:56:32,120 Speaker 1: of things. Uh, what I found what stuck and it 2019 01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:34,320 Speaker 1: was early on. There's a lot to take in today, 2020 01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:39,000 Speaker 1: but the fact that we've always been marginalized, a marginal group, 2021 01:56:39,640 --> 01:56:43,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, so it's kind of like we've been hanging 2022 01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:51,280 Speaker 1: on for two thousand, how many thousand years? Well it 2023 01:56:51,280 --> 01:56:53,640 Speaker 1: would be like, yeah, like a secular understanding would be 2024 01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:57,600 Speaker 1: the agricultural advent of the agriculture. So four thousand b c. 2025 01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:01,560 Speaker 1: That's when we again have Neil Thick agriculture. Since then, 2026 01:57:02,160 --> 01:57:04,200 Speaker 1: hunters have always been on the edge, you've been. Yeah, 2027 01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:10,400 Speaker 1: So for Harvard, Harvard long you define human history, it 2028 01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:14,480 Speaker 1: was strictly hunter gatherer cultures. And then all of a sudden, 2029 01:57:14,560 --> 01:57:17,560 Speaker 1: some guys like man, you know that grass that we're 2030 01:57:17,560 --> 01:57:20,080 Speaker 1: always bringing home and then we like eat the grass 2031 01:57:20,240 --> 01:57:23,320 Speaker 1: and then we go defecate down in the creek bed, 2032 01:57:23,480 --> 01:57:25,840 Speaker 1: and now that grass has grown, Dude, I'm telling you, look, 2033 01:57:25,880 --> 01:57:27,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot more there than there is everywhere else. 2034 01:57:28,200 --> 01:57:30,200 Speaker 1: The mint someone made that connection was the beginning of 2035 01:57:30,240 --> 01:57:34,000 Speaker 1: the end man, or you know that deer I found 2036 01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:36,000 Speaker 1: and brought home. We'll check it out. He's still here 2037 01:57:36,040 --> 01:57:39,120 Speaker 1: and had a baby and he's still hanging around. But 2038 01:57:39,200 --> 01:57:41,760 Speaker 1: I just feel like it's it's relevant to today because 2039 01:57:41,800 --> 01:57:44,720 Speaker 1: we have this conversation and it seems like there's this 2040 01:57:45,000 --> 01:57:47,520 Speaker 1: these fanning of the flames. Is like it's the end 2041 01:57:47,760 --> 01:57:51,600 Speaker 1: because we're pushed to the But it's true, it's there, right. 2042 01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:53,200 Speaker 1: I think people have been saying that for so long. 2043 01:57:53,200 --> 01:57:56,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure, but what I'm what I'm saying is they've 2044 01:57:56,200 --> 01:57:57,880 Speaker 1: been saying it for so long because it's the truth. 2045 01:57:57,960 --> 01:58:01,040 Speaker 1: And maybe that's just because that's where we're this group 2046 01:58:01,120 --> 01:58:03,840 Speaker 1: is supposed to be and it's always has been. Yeah, 2047 01:58:03,880 --> 01:58:10,280 Speaker 1: oh yeah, sure, so it's fine. There's nothing to worry 2048 01:58:10,280 --> 01:58:13,720 Speaker 1: about because we've been to ten percent for ten thousand years. 2049 01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:18,840 Speaker 1: I think like like the story of I've said, I 2050 01:58:18,920 --> 01:58:22,040 Speaker 1: thought that the story of Western civilization could be interpreted 2051 01:58:22,080 --> 01:58:25,839 Speaker 1: as a story of the gradual depersonal the the gradual 2052 01:58:26,040 --> 01:58:30,880 Speaker 1: de personalization of your food. Um, but yeah, I know 2053 01:58:30,920 --> 01:58:36,920 Speaker 1: what you're saying. They had it's been Yeah, it's a slow, 2054 01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:42,000 Speaker 1: seemingly never ending death. But yeah, but it's maybe it's 2055 01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:45,080 Speaker 1: not that. Maybe it's just like that's our place. Just 2056 01:58:45,440 --> 01:58:48,320 Speaker 1: it seems like it's seems to be always died. But 2057 01:58:48,360 --> 01:58:51,360 Speaker 1: that means something's gonna adapt. We adapted to the life 2058 01:58:51,360 --> 01:58:54,120 Speaker 1: of our frontier right by eighteen ninety Frontiers Gone Right 2059 01:58:54,120 --> 01:58:57,920 Speaker 1: in America. Alistair Drey he died unfortunately just after the 2060 01:58:57,920 --> 01:59:01,920 Speaker 1: book came out. He was from Scotland and he would 2061 01:59:01,960 --> 01:59:06,040 Speaker 1: go shooting, uh, Professor Sterling. But his type of hunting 2062 01:59:06,080 --> 01:59:07,800 Speaker 1: is he'd send me pictures of him and the guys. 2063 01:59:08,240 --> 01:59:10,640 Speaker 1: Was radically different than my type of hunting when I 2064 01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:12,320 Speaker 1: sent him pictures from me from Texas. But he was 2065 01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:16,920 Speaker 1: still hunting even with the restrictions in Britain and all 2066 01:59:16,960 --> 01:59:19,920 Speaker 1: that regarding firearms, and that they still found a way 2067 01:59:21,280 --> 01:59:25,240 Speaker 1: for his dogs for shooting birds, etcetera. Definitely on the 2068 01:59:25,440 --> 01:59:29,600 Speaker 1: edge at least of society, if not physically on the edge. Yeah. 2069 01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:34,800 Speaker 1: I think that the salvation or the path forward um 2070 01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:41,280 Speaker 1: was clearly articulated as long ago as it began to 2071 01:59:41,360 --> 01:59:46,320 Speaker 1: be articulated by Roosevelt. It was clarified and beautifully articulated 2072 01:59:46,360 --> 01:59:54,960 Speaker 1: by Leopold of what um, of what role this this 2073 01:59:55,600 --> 01:59:58,960 Speaker 1: discipline will have in the future. I just don't know 2074 01:59:59,080 --> 02:00:02,080 Speaker 1: that hunting will as democratic as it is so in Britain. 2075 02:00:02,360 --> 02:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Wild pigs, but who gets at the professional hunters? The 2076 02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:10,360 Speaker 1: hunt for cities, etcetera, hunt at night, suppressors night vision. 2077 02:00:10,640 --> 02:00:13,800 Speaker 1: So it'll still be hunters. But the question is what 2078 02:00:14,080 --> 02:00:17,360 Speaker 1: will be the population of those hunters. Yeah, that's a 2079 02:00:17,400 --> 02:00:20,160 Speaker 1: battle of the war. That's that's a portion of the 2080 02:00:20,240 --> 02:00:22,120 Speaker 1: war that will need to be fought. I don't mean 2081 02:00:22,160 --> 02:00:25,680 Speaker 1: to get to marshal and start using a bunch of marshals. Okay, 2082 02:00:25,960 --> 02:00:30,240 Speaker 1: here's my concluder. You are you good on concluders? Uh? 2083 02:00:31,040 --> 02:00:34,680 Speaker 1: I understand. I feel that there should be a law 2084 02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:43,240 Speaker 1: the academics write two books simultaneously. Okay, okay, while you 2085 02:00:43,360 --> 02:00:46,480 Speaker 1: were writing this book, working on this book, I feel 2086 02:00:46,520 --> 02:00:52,840 Speaker 1: that you should have simultaneously written a popular book. Now, 2087 02:00:52,920 --> 02:00:56,040 Speaker 1: my friend Dan Flores spent his whole life writing academic books. 2088 02:00:56,520 --> 02:01:00,200 Speaker 1: Then he retired, and now he's taking all of that 2089 02:01:00,320 --> 02:01:04,960 Speaker 1: wonderful information that he learned through his discipline and he's 2090 02:01:05,000 --> 02:01:08,920 Speaker 1: now saying to the guy in the bar, Hey, buddy, 2091 02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:12,800 Speaker 1: here's what I've been talking about. Here's all of these 2092 02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:15,440 Speaker 1: ideas I've been wrestling with, and I'm just gonna lay 2093 02:01:15,480 --> 02:01:18,920 Speaker 1: it out for you like a guy talking to an 2094 02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:29,960 Speaker 1: interested party. So do do you envision taking this and 2095 02:01:31,720 --> 02:01:34,840 Speaker 1: these ideas and just putting them out in a way 2096 02:01:34,920 --> 02:01:37,920 Speaker 1: that's that's and this is not a criticism, but in 2097 02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:42,640 Speaker 1: the way that's more accessible to the layman um or 2098 02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:46,480 Speaker 1: can't you because of your profession? Uh? No, it's possible. Uh. 2099 02:01:48,240 --> 02:01:50,600 Speaker 1: You know, I teach it a position where I am 2100 02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:54,000 Speaker 1: a professional teacher, so I teach four classes at least 2101 02:01:54,040 --> 02:01:56,160 Speaker 1: a semester. So it's hard to do research at all 2102 02:01:56,520 --> 02:01:59,120 Speaker 1: because because you do all kinds of research. Yeah, but 2103 02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:02,120 Speaker 1: no one's a word to mean my institution doesn't support me, Okay, 2104 02:02:02,760 --> 02:02:04,560 Speaker 1: So I do this on my own, so it's hard 2105 02:02:04,640 --> 02:02:07,120 Speaker 1: to do that. Right now, I'm working on a book 2106 02:02:07,160 --> 02:02:10,320 Speaker 1: for Texas A and M Press, a History of Hunting 2107 02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:12,640 Speaker 1: in Texas. That's going to be an academic book, but 2108 02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:14,040 Speaker 1: I do want to try and make it and I 2109 02:02:14,160 --> 02:02:16,880 Speaker 1: want some people understand the distinction here. And when you're 2110 02:02:16,880 --> 02:02:20,360 Speaker 1: writing an academic book, you have to be very forthright, 2111 02:02:21,280 --> 02:02:25,800 Speaker 1: absolutely transparent about where this information is from, and being 2112 02:02:26,280 --> 02:02:33,440 Speaker 1: very transparent about biases, and just very open to both sides, 2113 02:02:33,520 --> 02:02:37,760 Speaker 1: looking at everything right right in a popular book. You 2114 02:02:37,760 --> 02:02:40,440 Speaker 1: can be like, okay, WRONGNA cut the chase here and 2115 02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:42,480 Speaker 1: just give you kind of like, here's here's my view 2116 02:02:42,560 --> 02:02:45,280 Speaker 1: of Starr. There's here's my view of how this is going. 2117 02:02:45,400 --> 02:02:49,760 Speaker 1: I'd love to do that. I'm not there right now, maybe, 2118 02:02:50,120 --> 02:02:53,960 Speaker 1: but I don't even know. Like so, I wasn't saying 2119 02:02:54,000 --> 02:02:56,720 Speaker 1: that you should want to do that. I'm asking like, 2120 02:02:57,160 --> 02:02:58,880 Speaker 1: do you want to do that? Do you think you 2121 02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:03,200 Speaker 1: will someday do that? And I'm totally cool if you 2122 02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:05,520 Speaker 1: just say no, I don't really I think I'd like 2123 02:03:05,640 --> 02:03:07,920 Speaker 1: to h This is not anything I intend to do. 2124 02:03:08,080 --> 02:03:10,320 Speaker 1: This is not my in theory, my academic discipline. This 2125 02:03:10,480 --> 02:03:13,200 Speaker 1: was just a hair brained idea that took ten years 2126 02:03:13,720 --> 02:03:17,200 Speaker 1: to finally develop. Get all these people on board, right, essays, 2127 02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:19,760 Speaker 1: many of them didn't write about history from me about hunting, 2128 02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:22,560 Speaker 1: but get them to think about this that it took 2129 02:03:22,680 --> 02:03:25,040 Speaker 1: so much energy. Would have been easier just for me 2130 02:03:25,120 --> 02:03:28,920 Speaker 1: to write it myself. Yeah, but I wouldn't have I 2131 02:03:28,920 --> 02:03:31,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't have all these voices. Lord, I don't know if 2132 02:03:31,480 --> 02:03:35,960 Speaker 1: I'll ever added another book. Um, it is hard. It's 2133 02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:39,960 Speaker 1: hard for me though, because I haven't fully formulated my ideas. Essentially, 2134 02:03:39,960 --> 02:03:42,520 Speaker 1: what I need to do is mature. I need to 2135 02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:45,560 Speaker 1: mature another ten years or so. I need to figure 2136 02:03:45,560 --> 02:03:48,040 Speaker 1: out again who I am, and just like we see 2137 02:03:48,120 --> 02:03:51,720 Speaker 1: hunters mature themselves where you've seen these studies, how they 2138 02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:54,040 Speaker 1: mature to the age of basically, give me a gun, 2139 02:03:54,080 --> 02:03:56,560 Speaker 1: I'll kill anything that moves if it's brown. It's down 2140 02:03:57,040 --> 02:03:59,720 Speaker 1: to the trophy hunter, perhaps the one who seeks the 2141 02:03:59,800 --> 02:04:02,640 Speaker 1: ever increasing challenges to find, the one who's really only 2142 02:04:02,720 --> 02:04:06,160 Speaker 1: looking to just be with others, to hang out at camp. 2143 02:04:06,240 --> 02:04:09,320 Speaker 1: We met day. We spent some time with one of 2144 02:04:09,360 --> 02:04:12,880 Speaker 1: those guys who passed through Hey, the other side, and 2145 02:04:13,000 --> 02:04:16,400 Speaker 1: he was a hunter who does not hunt, but celebs. 2146 02:04:17,080 --> 02:04:20,040 Speaker 1: If you ask him what he is, he's honored. Only 2147 02:04:20,120 --> 02:04:22,400 Speaker 1: later do you realize, well, I don't actually hunt anymore. 2148 02:04:23,480 --> 02:04:25,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, I can tell you what I think about 2149 02:04:25,600 --> 02:04:27,280 Speaker 1: from time I wake up to the time I go 2150 02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:29,440 Speaker 1: to bed. Exactly. I think I need to mature a 2151 02:04:29,440 --> 02:04:32,560 Speaker 1: little bit. I have to come I need to come 2152 02:04:32,560 --> 02:04:34,520 Speaker 1: to grips with who I am and what I actually 2153 02:04:34,680 --> 02:04:37,240 Speaker 1: think before I write that book. That's going to be 2154 02:04:37,320 --> 02:04:40,560 Speaker 1: more of an apology, not like, excuse me, but this 2155 02:04:40,840 --> 02:04:44,400 Speaker 1: is what I believe an argument but from maybe not 2156 02:04:44,480 --> 02:04:47,680 Speaker 1: from an academic perspective, but from the heart. But instead 2157 02:04:47,720 --> 02:04:49,480 Speaker 1: of saying to the reader, hey man, here's a whole 2158 02:04:49,520 --> 02:04:53,680 Speaker 1: bunch of things you could believe. Here's some questions that 2159 02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:56,800 Speaker 1: you should answer, but I'm not gonna answer for you. Yeah, 2160 02:04:57,160 --> 02:05:03,840 Speaker 1: so give me a decade. Okay, now you go to me. 2161 02:05:04,600 --> 02:05:09,400 Speaker 1: My goal for writing this book was to simply encourage 2162 02:05:09,480 --> 02:05:16,080 Speaker 1: people to think and to create a conversation, because the 2163 02:05:16,120 --> 02:05:18,720 Speaker 1: conversation has essentially been so far people who said hunting 2164 02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:21,960 Speaker 1: is bad and leave me alone, hunting is just fine. 2165 02:05:22,000 --> 02:05:26,280 Speaker 1: God's that is okay if they thought about it as 2166 02:05:26,360 --> 02:05:29,840 Speaker 1: I see the decline of hunting, at least in participation. 2167 02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:34,120 Speaker 1: It bothers me because I think it's so important. It's 2168 02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:39,040 Speaker 1: who I am, perhaps too much, but it's who I am, 2169 02:05:39,800 --> 02:05:43,360 Speaker 1: and for me, it's my tribe. But my tribe doesn't 2170 02:05:43,400 --> 02:05:47,160 Speaker 1: have an identity, and I want the tribe to come 2171 02:05:47,240 --> 02:05:51,760 Speaker 1: to formulate an identity. Now, not everybody's a Christian hunter 2172 02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:54,560 Speaker 1: or religious hunter, but I think that we all could 2173 02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:58,080 Speaker 1: experience a kind of religious element to hunting. I think 2174 02:05:58,120 --> 02:05:59,360 Speaker 1: it's there, And like I ask you to believe what 2175 02:05:59,400 --> 02:06:03,280 Speaker 1: I believe, Sure what I do, but my goal is, 2176 02:06:03,600 --> 02:06:07,600 Speaker 1: and my hope is the hunters will simply begin to think, 2177 02:06:08,800 --> 02:06:11,960 Speaker 1: who am I, what am I doing? Why am I 2178 02:06:12,080 --> 02:06:16,120 Speaker 1: doing it? And in the process of thinking and reflecting, 2179 02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:23,800 Speaker 1: they'll tell their stories with greater honesty and with greater enthusiasm. 2180 02:06:24,160 --> 02:06:27,560 Speaker 1: That next generation will be fired up. That will create 2181 02:06:27,720 --> 02:06:32,600 Speaker 1: new generations of hunters who tap into the wonder and 2182 02:06:32,760 --> 02:06:36,240 Speaker 1: all it's splendor and frustration that is hunting, and that 2183 02:06:36,440 --> 02:06:39,880 Speaker 1: out of all of that will come another generation of 2184 02:06:39,960 --> 02:06:44,440 Speaker 1: hunters who think, who celebrate um and I think that 2185 02:06:44,560 --> 02:06:48,080 Speaker 1: we've been missing that for various reasons, partially because hunters 2186 02:06:48,160 --> 02:06:52,280 Speaker 1: haven't had to explain themselves, and now they do so. 2187 02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:56,520 Speaker 1: A reflective generation of hunters, people who recognize the beauty 2188 02:06:56,560 --> 02:06:58,600 Speaker 1: and the magnificence that we still get to play in, 2189 02:06:59,520 --> 02:07:02,440 Speaker 1: and that in process of play we find out something 2190 02:07:02,480 --> 02:07:05,960 Speaker 1: about ourselves, about the world around us, and even perhaps 2191 02:07:06,040 --> 02:07:11,720 Speaker 1: about our God, okay God nim Rod and the world. 2192 02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:18,360 Speaker 1: Exploring Christian perspectives on sport hunting Bracy V. Hill the 2193 02:07:18,480 --> 02:07:23,480 Speaker 1: second and Uh, if you want to check this out, 2194 02:07:23,520 --> 02:07:25,040 Speaker 1: how do they what? What's the best way to find it? 2195 02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:28,400 Speaker 1: The most beneficial to you? You know it? I'm probably 2196 02:07:28,440 --> 02:07:30,280 Speaker 1: gonna get very few royalties out of this. So you 2197 02:07:30,360 --> 02:07:33,920 Speaker 1: can get it on Amazon, Books, Barnes and Noble, most 2198 02:07:34,080 --> 02:07:39,640 Speaker 1: any type of mostly online. I haven't actually gone it's 2199 02:07:39,680 --> 02:07:41,120 Speaker 1: Barnes and Noble to see if it's on the shelf, 2200 02:07:41,920 --> 02:07:44,680 Speaker 1: but I do see that they occasionally lose, like nine, 2201 02:07:44,920 --> 02:07:50,720 Speaker 1: nine left, three left, two left, we're back, so somebody's finding. Yeah, 2202 02:07:51,160 --> 02:07:53,160 Speaker 1: that's great man. Thank you, thank you for coming on, 2203 02:07:53,320 --> 02:07:55,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for this opportunity. I thoroughly enjoyed it.