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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. You might

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Speaker 1: know Lyndy West from the Internet. She's the author of Shrill,

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Speaker 1: the hit twenty sixteen memoir about being a fat woman

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Speaker 1: in America that became a cultural phenomenon.

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Speaker 2: A Hulu series, and one of.

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Speaker 1: The defining feminist books of the decade. Shrill ended on

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Speaker 1: a really happy note for Lindy, Lindy finding her voice

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Speaker 1: and meeting and marrying a hum the love of her life.

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Speaker 1: Lindy's newest book, Adult Braces, picks up or Schroll left off,

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Speaker 1: and it turns out that Shrill's happy ending was a

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Speaker 1: little bit more complicated than previously advertised. Adult Braces reveals

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Speaker 1: that her husband, the Ham, presented Lindy with an ultimatum

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Speaker 1: their marriage needed to be open or he was gone.

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Speaker 1: So Lindy goes on a road trip across America and

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Speaker 1: ultimately decides to stay married and embrace polyamory. She now

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Speaker 1: lives in her family cabin with her husband and one

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Speaker 1: of his previously secret girlfriends, named Roya after a viral

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Speaker 1: new York Times a Modern Love interview. Lindy's marriage became

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Speaker 1: something of a lightning rod for a lot of different people, conservatives, feminists,

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Speaker 1: people inside the poly community, and for a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks who came of age reading feminist confessional writing on

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Speaker 1: the Internet and the twenty tens, which, if you're listening to.

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Speaker 2: This podcast, might be you.

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Speaker 1: And when a hum sent an email to a Slate

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Speaker 1: writer who had given his wife a perfectly fair review,

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Speaker 1: everything got even louder. I talked to writer and comedian

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Speaker 1: Ashley Ray. Ashley wrote a piece for Harper's about the

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Speaker 1: book called Lindy West and the Trap of Perfect Polyamory.

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Speaker 1: Ashley has been Polly for fourteen years. We talked about

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Speaker 1: the book, the discourse, and what all of it says

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Speaker 1: about feminist writing, parasocial fandom, and whether the personal essay

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Speaker 1: industrial complex of the twenty tens has finally run its course.

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Speaker 1: Ashley Ray of the subject deep trouble. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan of

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Speaker 3: the pod. I'm so happy to be back.

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Speaker 1: I want to stay up up top. This might be

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a different episode. Usually when I

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Speaker 1: have somebody with expertise like yourself. I'm like interviewing them

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Speaker 1: about something to get their thoughts on something. Really, I

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Speaker 1: have been reading about the Lindy West book for the

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Speaker 1: last week. I've been listening to podcasts about it, reading

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Speaker 1: articles about it, and I'm just to the point where

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Speaker 1: my friends are like, find someone else to talk about

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Speaker 1: this with, and I just want to talk about it

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Speaker 1: on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: And that's why you're here. Yeah, I same.

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Speaker 3: My even like my seven two year old mom, I've

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Speaker 3: just been like, look, you don't know Lindy West, and

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Speaker 3: she's just like, is this girl your friend? And I'm like, no, no,

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Speaker 3: she just wrote a book, but you need to hear

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Speaker 3: every detail. It's interesting how the book Lindy the Relationship

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Speaker 3: has taken over the internet, every platform, Threads, Twitter, Blue Sky,

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Speaker 3: everyone is talking about it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think substack obviously.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I've seen just sort of like a

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Speaker 3: monoculture moment like this around a book in a long time.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's part of what's exciting about this

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Speaker 3: is that, you know, as literary people, we love some

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Speaker 3: lit drama, and it's full of it. You know, her

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Speaker 3: husband's sister is also a famous writer, they're in communication

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Speaker 3: with all these other writers. It went from just being

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Speaker 3: a book to like her husband sending emails to another

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Speaker 3: very gifted author, and it just became like a huge

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Speaker 3: thing that has spiraled out of control. And now there

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Speaker 3: are people saying that this is is a signal that

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Speaker 3: millennial feminism is dead. Other people who are like, it's

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Speaker 3: the end of white feminism. It's just becomes such a

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Speaker 3: thing that means so much to so many people. And

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Speaker 3: at the center of it, it's like it's just a

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Speaker 3: book about a woman finding something she didn't think she'd

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Speaker 3: like and realizing she kind of liked it. And also

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Speaker 3: she's very honest about it not being perfect in some ways.

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Speaker 3: But then there are these frustrating ways where she still

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Speaker 3: sort of pushes herself in life in the narrative as

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Speaker 3: happy and very progressive and as you know, basically a

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Speaker 3: happy ending and a gotcha moment for the trolls and

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Speaker 3: haters to say, you know, you might think I don't

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Speaker 3: deserve this happy end day and this is me settling,

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Speaker 3: but it's not. And then it's also her trying to

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Speaker 3: play Kate fans because she came up at this like

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Speaker 3: twenty ten writer era where you know, you were a

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Speaker 3: writer and a hero to your fans and reader they

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Speaker 3: felt like you owed them something. And as a leader

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Speaker 3: in the body positivity movement, and she writes about this,

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Speaker 3: you know, she felt people would come to her and say,

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Speaker 3: I realized I could love myself because of you, I

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Speaker 3: could have what I wanted because of you. And when

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Speaker 3: she would lose weight, people would get upset with her.

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Speaker 3: So that becomes a part of the expectations of the

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Speaker 3: relationship where she has to have a happy ending with

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Speaker 3: her husband Aham because if she doesn't, she's letting these

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Speaker 3: people down. They won't know that they can have a

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Speaker 3: happy ending. And so that's why Shrill ends with such

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Speaker 3: a happy ending, and adult Braces goes, actually, that was

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Speaker 3: all a lie. I thought you all needed a happy ending.

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Speaker 3: But now I'm not lying when I give you a

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Speaker 3: happy ending, I get now I'm telling and it's kind

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Speaker 3: of like, girl, I think it might be lying to

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Speaker 3: give us the happy ending again. So it's just because

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Speaker 3: of all of this has taken off in so many directions,

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Speaker 3: and to Lindy US's credit, it takes you know, talented writing,

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Speaker 3: talented storytelling to get people this engaged and involved a

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Speaker 3: polyamorous relationship from Seattle. Like, how is that even surprising?

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Speaker 1: It really is a throwback to a certain kind of,

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Speaker 1: at least for me, low stakes internet writer culture drama

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Speaker 1: that we haven't really had a lot of that in

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Speaker 1: the last few years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in a while, you know, I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of us have smartened up. I think when Lindy came up,

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Speaker 3: it was the time of the bleed on the Internet

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Speaker 3: and make a name for yourself era, where you wrote

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Speaker 3: a piece for Jazebel or whatever, sharing your deepest sexual,

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Speaker 3: deepest darkest shame. And that was a way to talk

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Speaker 3: about issues that were really relevant.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: That's not to say that what Lindy was writing about,

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Speaker 3: you know, wasn't relevant, but it was something that.

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Speaker 2: Encouraged a parasocial readership.

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Speaker 3: Right, It's like everyone should be able to write about

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Speaker 3: their life, pull from their life, write memoir. But it

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Speaker 3: extending on to social media in a new way, and

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Speaker 3: you know, ever before really it extending on to social media.

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Speaker 3: It extending, you know, into the way people understand and

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Speaker 3: represent their politics. Right, It's like, do you support Lindy West.

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Speaker 3: You can't just be a fan. It's like, oh, but

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Speaker 3: are you a feminist if you don't like Lindy West,

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Speaker 3: like it becomes more And I think just that coming

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Speaker 3: of age of that time as a writer, it seemed

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Speaker 3: like that sucked. I'm a little younger than her. To me,

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh gosh, I don't want to have

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Speaker 3: to like owe a bunch of fans something because they

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Speaker 3: think that my body is their property because they like

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Speaker 3: read a book I wrote. You know, I kind of

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Speaker 3: was able to learn from that. So I think my generation,

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Speaker 3: you know, we weren't as willing to write for digital

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Speaker 3: blogs like Exo Jane and Jezebel just to kind of

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Speaker 3: have that moment. So when we see such naked kind

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Speaker 3: of sharing, like we are saying in adult Braces, it

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Speaker 3: does feel like a throwback to that.

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Speaker 2: I think people are kind of shocked.

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Speaker 3: She is so just raw with a lot in it,

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Speaker 3: like she is talking about the negative. Ah, I'm cheating

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Speaker 3: not just on her but on their other partner. In

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Speaker 3: the middle of the books, she reveals that actually he

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Speaker 3: was seeing two other women, not just one.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And you know, so it is written in a way

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Speaker 3: where we're not just supposed to be like, oh, this

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Speaker 3: is great. She was unquestioning and supportive the whole time.

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Speaker 3: We are going on a very dark journey with Lindy.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's kind of, you know, making people go, WHOA,

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Speaker 3: this writer is being so real. But also this means

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Speaker 3: that feminism of the twenty tens was a lie, and

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Speaker 3: it's just like, Okay, it doesn't have to mean all

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Speaker 3: of that.

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Speaker 2: Let's all just take a breath.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm really glad that you mentioned the sort

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Speaker 1: of age that you came of age, and I very

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Speaker 1: much came of age in the Lindy West streets.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I think I kind of came of age as a

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Speaker 1: feminist in that very particular moment in the twenty tens,

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Speaker 1: and I subsequently I do have a deep reverence for

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Speaker 1: Lindy West's writing because fact that that did have cultural

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Speaker 1: cachet and cultural capital and political capital. I remember the

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Speaker 1: era of XO Jane. They used to call it the

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Speaker 1: personal essay industrial compast. I remember a very specific personal

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Speaker 1: essay that somebody wrote about a hairball that got stuck

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Speaker 1: in their vagina, being the being the specific essay where

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Speaker 1: folks were like, we've hit peak personal essay.

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Speaker 3: A personal essay, there's nothing else we can do.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 1: I was writing on the internet in that in those days,

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Speaker 1: and you're so right that the expectation was you would

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Speaker 1: write something. And I was never as successful as Sunday

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Speaker 1: West obviously, but like the expectation was that you wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a feminist voice online, you would write something

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Speaker 1: incredibly personal about your body, your sex, life, your upbringing,

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Speaker 1: these personal parts of yourself. You would put it on

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Speaker 1: a blog like exo Jane. You would maybe you would

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Speaker 1: get fifty dollars for writing that, Like the compensation was

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Speaker 1: very low, but there was this feeling that maybe that

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Speaker 1: could turn into a book deal or a show make

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Speaker 1: you can build up your cultural cachet. And I just

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Speaker 1: gotta wonder if the moment, if that moment has come

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Speaker 1: and passed.

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Speaker 2: I think absolutely we're.

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Speaker 1: More critical, we're more skeptical. I think that we're I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say over sharing, but I think that

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Speaker 1: level of like let like like opening up like that

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Speaker 1: on the page. I think folks are a lot less forgiving,

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Speaker 1: and I think that that we equate that a lot

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Speaker 1: less with honest writing. Back in the twenty tens, we

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Speaker 1: just didn't have a lot of women who were writing

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Speaker 1: that way. So if you wrote openly and honestly about

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Speaker 1: your body, your sex life, all of this. It automatically

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Speaker 1: David a kind of gravy toss that I think we're

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Speaker 1: I think it's like the culture has moved a little

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Speaker 1: bit past that, Tia.

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Speaker 3: Do you think we're now absolutely where Now It's like,

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Speaker 3: it isn't shocking or surprising to hear women talk about

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Speaker 3: farting and poop. It's like, yeah, okay, it's yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: not that up to date. And that is a kind

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Speaker 3: of the issue with adult braces is that it does

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Speaker 3: still feel like it's stuck in that twenty tens era,

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Speaker 3: you know. I would say the biggest side, and we've

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Speaker 3: all moved on, is if the cut were to ask

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Speaker 3: me to write a personal essay today, I would go,

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Speaker 3: why do you want to destroy my life? I would

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Speaker 3: be like what I'd be like, No, No, this is

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Speaker 3: a trap. Like it's so clear now that that is

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Speaker 3: done to feed the attention economy. And I think younger

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Speaker 3: people who have grown up in that economy, who see

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Speaker 3: every part of their lives, you know, recorded put online

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Speaker 3: where they're just afraid to even go out because if

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Speaker 3: they do something and someone else notices it, they could

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Speaker 3: end up as a theme in a Twitter thread or

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Speaker 3: something and they don't even know that, like they're a

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Speaker 3: character of the day online. And I think because of that,

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Speaker 3: people are so much more careful with their privacy, And

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Speaker 3: so I think this book does feel like it's still

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Speaker 3: stuck in that twenty tens era where it wants to

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Speaker 3: be like, you know, it wants to present itself as

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Speaker 3: very raw, open, honest, but really we all feel it

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Speaker 3: in that way where it's presenting a narrative right where

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Speaker 3: it's like, this isn't raw, op and honest. This isn't

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Speaker 3: something where like a wife is on TikTok telling the

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Speaker 3: story tale of like how her marriage broke down. This

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Speaker 3: is a narrative that you've crafted of how you're viewing

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Speaker 3: this because you want to sell that to your fans.

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Speaker 3: You want to sell and I told you so to

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Speaker 3: your trolls, and you wanna again, like Shrill's present a story.

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Speaker 3: You know, this could turn into a book, or this

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Speaker 3: could turn into a movie, This could turn into a

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Speaker 3: TV show where already, like, what's the next book going

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Speaker 3: to be?

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Speaker 2: Is it going to be her divorce?

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Speaker 3: And in an interview with Slaate, she says you know,

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Speaker 3: I need this book to like float us for a while.

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Speaker 3: So I think now the nakedness of that being for

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Speaker 3: you know, like you said, the just sort of cultural

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Speaker 3: attention to get your name out there.

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Speaker 2: I think now that is so.

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Speaker 3: Like just so clear that people can't relate to it

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Speaker 3: in a way where it's like, oh, this is raw honesty,

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Speaker 3: Like oh, you know, I am learning something about her.

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Speaker 2: It just feels.

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Speaker 3: Just kind of like a gimmick of it, you know,

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Speaker 3: even with a polyamory, even again with her talking about

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Speaker 3: sort of body issues in the book, it all just

254
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Speaker 3: kind of feels a bit gimmicky because it is so

255
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Speaker 3: wrapped up in her husband, and it's like, why is

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Speaker 3: this person who was sort of upheld as a feminist

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Speaker 3: writer the twenty tens telling us that, you know, actually

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Speaker 3: she was able to fix her body issues by starting

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Speaker 3: a subdom relationship with her husband.

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Speaker 2: That is a whole other story. You know.

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Speaker 3: I think people are also getting lost in the polyamory

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Speaker 3: of it all. There's so much more that, you know,

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Speaker 3: just feels very out of touch with sort of where

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Speaker 3: I think younger feminists are today, where a lot of

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Speaker 3: those narratives that Lindy hears in her head, don't really

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Speaker 3: resonate for them.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 1: At our back. If you have not read the book

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Speaker 1: or read anything about it from listening to us talk,

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Speaker 1: you might think that the entirety of the book is

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Speaker 1: about her marriage and like her journey to embracing polyamory

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Speaker 1: and all of that.

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Speaker 2: But her book, there's so much more.

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Speaker 1: In the book, right. It's about her relationship to her body.

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Speaker 1: It's also very much a travelogue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and very much about her parents. You know, I'll

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Speaker 3: give a quick little summary. But the book starts in

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Speaker 3: the aftermath of where Shrill left us. Basically, Shrill tells

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Speaker 3: us she has this big, happy, beautiful, fat wedding.

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Speaker 2: Everyone is happy.

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Speaker 3: The saddest thing is, you know, her dad has just died,

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Speaker 3: but it this is her new life now. And then

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Speaker 3: adult Bracest starts with so, actually that was all a facade.

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Speaker 2: After my father passed, that.

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Speaker 3: Was why Aham came back to my life, because you know,

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Speaker 3: he saw that I was so depressed and decided we

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Speaker 3: could be back together, but only if we can have

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Speaker 3: an open relationship and open marriage. And it is basically

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Speaker 3: an ultimatum that that Aham presents. It is basically, if

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Speaker 3: you want me back and you want to get married,

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Speaker 3: it has to be an open marriage. His explanation is

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Speaker 3: that monogamy not marriage, because they do get married.

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Speaker 2: Monogamy is akin to slavery.

294
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Speaker 3: And ownership, and that is why he cannot be monogamous

295
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Speaker 3: because it is basically her white ownership of his body.

296
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Speaker 3: Marriage is fine as long as the on paper, I

297
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Speaker 3: can like claim you on my taxes or something, but

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Speaker 3: actual monogamy within that marriage is slavery. And Lindy basically goes,

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Speaker 3: I'm white and I'm codependent.

300
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Speaker 2: So I just don't get it.

301
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 3: But he's so smart and right, and it's just you know,

302
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 3: from there they decide to do it. But her stance

303
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 3: is don't ask, don't tell, like I don't want to

304
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Speaker 3: know anything.

305
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Speaker 2: But she does lay out rules.

306
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Speaker 3: She's like, don't sleep with anyone we know, don't sleep

307
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 3: with anyone in our community, don't see anyone multiple times

308
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Speaker 3: you know, basically, don't have a girlfriend. If it's just

309
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Speaker 3: like when I stands whatever, I don't care and I

310
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Speaker 3: don't want to hear about it. And then one day

311
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 3: she gets a text from a fan that's like, hey,

312
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Speaker 3: I saw your husband making out with someone at a bar,

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Speaker 3: and that's when she realizes, like, oh, my husband has

314
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Speaker 3: an entire girlfriend in Portland, and that becomes a whole

315
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Speaker 3: thing where he's like, I don't care if you're unhappy

316
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Speaker 3: with it, I'm gonna go to Portland once a month

317
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Speaker 3: and be with this person. In the process of that,

318
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Speaker 3: Lendy also finds out that he's been seeing a girl

319
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Speaker 3: in their neighborhood who they all know, which totally breaks

320
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Speaker 3: the rule she's younger, just every rule, And at this

321
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 3: point Lindy's like, you've broken every rule. I have every

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Speaker 3: right to leave you. And she decides to go on

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Speaker 3: a road trip. And this is really the travelogue part

324
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Speaker 3: of the book, and which I think is the strongest

325
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Speaker 3: part of the book. I really wish, yeah, I really

326
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 3: wish so much more of it was just like the

327
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 3: insights into her travels. I love even just the part

328
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Speaker 3: when she transcribes like her thoughts as she's just like

329
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 3: driving and talking into a microphone. And she rents a van,

330
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 3: does like the whole van life thing, and she decides

331
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Speaker 3: to drive from Seattle to Cocomo, Florida, and this is

332
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 3: sort of the spark of the whole journey and travel

333
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,959
Speaker 3: and road trip, but also I think is the perfect

334
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,400
Speaker 3: sort of metaphor for the entire books issue. So at

335
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,320
Speaker 3: the start, she goes, I was always obsessed with the

336
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 3: you know the.

337
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,680
Speaker 2: Beach Boys song, love it.

338
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 3: And that's when I decided I need to have my

339
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 3: own Cokema moment. I need to escape and get away,

340
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 3: you know, find myself. I'm gonna go to Cocomo. And

341
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,960
Speaker 3: she gets a you know, map out and gets online

342
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,720
Speaker 3: and is like driving to Cocamo, Florida, And what does

343
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:14,919
Speaker 3: she discover? It's not real Cocomo shoot, which I like,

344
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 3: I knew that. I feel like any like most people

345
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,880
Speaker 3: know that. But in the book it's like she has

346
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,199
Speaker 3: no She's like, oh my gosh, another let down in

347
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,399
Speaker 3: my life. But she goes, you know what, forget it.

348
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,160
Speaker 3: I'll just drive to the Keys. I'm just gonna drive

349
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,120
Speaker 3: you know, the floor keys. It will still be beautiful.

350
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Speaker 3: And that's what she ends up doing.

351
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Speaker 5: Uh.

352
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,080
Speaker 3: But then on the drive back, she goes, on my

353
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Speaker 3: way back to Seattle, I'm gonna go visit my friends

354
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,959
Speaker 3: in Michigan. Uh, Samantha Irby and and her wife who

355
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 3: also an amazing writer.

356
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Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yes, Oh I would say.

357
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 3: Actually, as everyone is kind of reliving the Cindy or

358
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,199
Speaker 3: the Lindy Best stuff, I'm like, actually, I came up

359
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 3: on Samantha Irby at that time.

360
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Like I.

361
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 1: Feel like Samantha Irby Sanmantha in the book. I feel

362
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 1: like is like the person that I identify with the math.

363
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 2: The most I was.

364
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 3: I was like, Samantha Ruby is the hero of the book,

365
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,479
Speaker 3: and actually we all have a friend like that, Like

366
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 3: you learn the most about Lindy through Sam, which well,

367
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 3: but she decides I'm gonna go to Michigan and see Sam.

368
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 3: And on the way, she misses an exit and gets

369
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 3: turned around in Indianapolis and suddenly she sees a sign

370
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 3: for Cocomo Indiana and she says, I swear on Mike

371
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,440
Speaker 3: Davis's life, the guy from Beach Boys, I swear to God,

372
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,880
Speaker 3: I had no idea Cocomo Indiana was a thing. This

373
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 3: was just kismet. This was magic. Like wow, here in

374
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 3: the most unexpected place, I find what I was really

375
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Speaker 3: looking for.

376
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Speaker 4: WHOA.

377
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 3: But then she's always like I found out the town

378
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 3: like has a racist history, so like things still are

379
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 3: races and the thing is though, like you just told it,

380
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 3: you did research and found out Cocomo wasn't real, and

381
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,400
Speaker 3: in any research that's talking about they all mentioned Cocomo Indiana.

382
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 3: Like on the Wikipedia page for the song, it's like

383
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 3: the only coco it's Cocomoon Indiana. Like there's no way

384
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 3: you didn't know Cocomo Indiana wasn't real. But it's a

385
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 3: pretty story, right to be like I was on this

386
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 3: road trip and I just stumbled across it. It's beautiful narrative.

387
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 3: It's like when you're writing the TV show, you're like, oh, yeah,

388
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 3: that makes sense because just saying yeah, I saw there

389
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 3: was a Cocomo Indiana and I went, that's kind of funny.

390
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 2: I'll stop by.

391
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 3: It's on the way to go see my friend isn't interesting, right,

392
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 3: It's just kind of like, yeah, you knew it was there,

393
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 3: so you went that way, because there's no reason to

394
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,919
Speaker 3: go through Michigan. If you're going to Seattle from you know,

395
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 3: just say you've wanted to go see Cocoma. It's fine.

396
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 3: But instead it has to be dressed up in this

397
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 3: really beautiful, like fairy tale moment. And that is really

398
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 3: the issue with the book is that she's still dressing

399
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 3: up everything and her life into this beautiful narrative, and

400
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 3: it feels like it's not so much even for her

401
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 3: own sake, because out the book she questions herself, right, Like,

402
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 3: there's parts where she's like, am I just forcing myself

403
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 3: into this throuple because I feel like I'm losing my

404
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 3: husband and this is the only way to keep him?

405
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 3: And then she'll just kind of be like, but anyway,

406
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 3: I saw a stand to buy some honey. Honey, isn't

407
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: that crazy? And she doesn't keep asking the question, she

408
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 3: lets it go. So I see a lot of people

409
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 3: pushing back and saying, you know, they're criticizing her because

410
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 3: people don't want to believe a woman could make this choice,

411
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 3: or you know, they don't want to believe a woman

412
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 3: could actually be into polyamory. But people are just asking

413
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 3: the questions that Lindy's asking in the book. You know,

414
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 3: they're having the same doubt.

415
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 2: She has in the book.

416
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 3: And it's just that the book doesn't give a satisfying answer.

417
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 3: It just sort of, in its last few pages, goes

418
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 3: and it just so happens. I also love my husband's girlfriend,

419
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 3: and he has great taste in women, and she's really

420
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,159
Speaker 3: hot and thin, and she likes me, so that's.

421
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 2: Great, and now we're all happy because she.

422
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 3: Helps me manage our calendar and pay our bills, and

423
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,959
Speaker 3: he cooks sometimes and gets wood and so, you know,

424
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 3: to people who've read her writing, it doesn't sound so

425
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 3: much like a happy ending for people who are not monogamous.

426
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 3: It's a little problematic and gets into issues of unicorns

427
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 3: and women who use polyamory basically to set up like

428
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: a liberal polygamous institution where it's a bunch of women

429
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 3: working together to handle a man's needs, but they're doing

430
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 3: it in a liberal way. Which is another big part

431
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 3: of the book that some people have issued with is that.

432
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: For her, it is embracing roy.

433
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 3: In this thrupple is her saying, I am a more

434
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 3: liberal person. I am able to understand that monogamy is racist.

435
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: And if the rest of the world could understand and

436
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 3: open up their minds to things like this, like falling

437
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 3: in love with their husband's girlfriend, maybe we wouldn't have

438
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 3: so much hate, Maybe we wouldn't have conservatives. She drives

439
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: through a lot of conservative places where she's like, really

440
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 3: just assuming everyone is racist. It's a little od like

441
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 3: she you know, meets people and She's like, oh, maybe

442
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 3: if they could understand nominogamy, they wouldn't be so close minded.

443
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 3: But it's like, girl, there's those conservatives are probably swingers

444
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 3: who are having more threesomes than you. Like you're in

445
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 3: Florida talking about these conservatives, and it's like those people

446
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 3: are probably like leaving the Trump rally to have sex,

447
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 3: Like it doesn't matter being ethically. No, monogamous does not

448
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 3: make you liberal, like the Tiger King was polyamorous.

449
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: But the book doesn't want to get into that.

450
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 3: The book really wants you to believe, like what we've

451
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 3: created here is a liberal, leftist ideal relationship. Other people

452
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 3: should consider this kind of lifestyle because it makes you

453
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 3: more socially morally correct. That is the threat of the

454
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 3: book is you know, if the world were to embrace

455
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 3: what I'm doing here, everyone would be happy. And yeah,

456
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 3: it just feels very out of touch because it's like, no,

457
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 3: the people do that, it doesn't matter. And another example

458
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 3: in the book, and I wrote a piece for Harper's

459
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 3: about this and mentioned this part. But she is in

460
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 3: Idaho or Montana, I believe, and she stops to buy

461
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: honey from a guy who is named Fat Daddy he

462
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: makes his own honey, sells it by the side of

463
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 3: the road. He's with his friend and she buys some

464
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 3: and then she notices they have Second Amendment hats on

465
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 3: and she's like, oh no, like I've just supported conservative.

466
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 2: Honey, Like they have Second Amendment hats on.

467
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 3: I bet that they're like pro life and they're gonna

468
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 3: use my money to go make signs for the pro

469
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 3: life Clinic. And if only fat Daddy could focus on

470
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 3: his honey and be a nice honey man, he wouldn't

471
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 3: need to be a conservative who loves Trump. And if

472
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 3: he could just you know, why can't people do that?

473
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 3: Why can't they just focus on their hobbies instead of

474
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 3: being haters. And it's like, well, girl, that man is

475
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 3: focused on his honey. You just bought his honey. You

476
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 3: have the honey. How much more focus do you want

477
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 3: him to be on his honey? He makes it, he

478
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 3: sells it, he puts a label on the honey, he's

479
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 3: selling his honey. He is a nice honeyman, Like you're saying,

480
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 3: it just isn't working out the way you want it,

481
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 3: because it doesn't actually work that way. You know, he

482
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: can be a nice be man and be a conservative

483
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 3: and for all you know, fat Daddy is a gay,

484
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 3: polyamorous libertarian, like that's how the world is now.

485
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: But Lindy sees.

486
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 3: It in a very black and white way in adult braces,

487
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 3: where it's like, no, you either have to be conservative

488
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 3: monogama as Christian or radical liberal who is seeking progressive

489
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 3: approval by being in a threat bole. And you know,

490
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 3: I think that at the heart of his is another

491
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 3: issue people sort of take with the book.

492
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: You wrote a phenomenal piece in Harper's that will put

493
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: in the show Nots called Lindy West and the Trap

494
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: of Perfect Polyamory. And you are a polyamorous person yourself.

495
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: I would say I've been an open thing, but I

496
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: have dabble than polyamory myself. And one of the points

497
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: that you make that you've just sort of summarized is

498
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: that I think I don't think the book is trying

499
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: to be like a how to guide of how one

500
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: should do polyamory, and everybody's relationships are always messy and like,

501
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: you know, whatever kind of structure you're trying to do.

502
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: But I do think there is the thread that you

503
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: called out of practicing polyamory being inherently more progressive than

504
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: other kinds of relationships. And I have come along many

505
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: an ethical, ethically non monogamous person who I would not

506
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: describe as altruistic or moral or progressive. I just watched

507
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: the Mano Sphere documentary or all of the different men

508
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: in that documentary talk about how they're like, oh, our

509
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: relationship is one side of Polly where my.

510
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 3: Can so many people and the girl can. And there

511
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 3: are so many even liberals who would look at that

512
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 3: doc and say I hate that documentary, who go, well, yeah,

513
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 3: I am in a dynamic where like I date my

514
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: husband's girlfriend and we date each other, and I date

515
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: my husband, and yes, my husband dates both of us,

516
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 3: and he can go date other women, but we're only

517
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 3: allowed to date women. And they can justify it somehow,

518
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 3: but they separate themselves from those Manusphere guys, and to me,

519
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 3: it's like, look, I'm polyamorous.

520
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: Okay, it sucks, it sucks.

521
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 3: It sucks that I have something in common with those guys,

522
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: but I do. It sucks that I have something a

523
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 3: common with the Tiger King, but I do. Okay, for

524
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 3: some reason, we chose a similar relationship style.

525
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: And if you're gonna be polyamorous. I think you have

526
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: to start there.

527
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: You can't start from a place of I'm choosing this

528
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: because I want to be more moral or I am

529
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: solving racism in my relationship if I open it up.

530
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: If you do that, you're really more of a polygamous.

531
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 3: You're basically kind of in line with Mormons, or not Mormons,

532
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: but fundamentalists, you know, who say we have to have

533
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 3: a plural marriage because it makes us more religious, it

534
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 3: makes us closer to God.

535
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: And to me, that's when the line starts blurring.

536
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: You know, you just have to look at polyamory as

537
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: a different relationship style than monogamy. That has to be it.

538
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 3: And if from there you go, oh, okay, I still

539
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: want to do it. Great good place to start. But

540
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 3: reading Adult Braces, it doesn't feel like that's where Lindy is.

541
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: It feels like she wants to do it because her

542
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 3: husband's telling her, if you don't want to be racist,

543
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 3: you got to let me have an open relationship. And

544
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 3: she's like, it does seem like if I want to

545
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: be accepted in progressive circles, that's what I have to

546
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 3: agree to.

547
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: And so okay, and.

548
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's take a quick break at our back.

549
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: Ashley and I are both black women who have both

550
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: been in polyamorous relationships, and there's just something about the

551
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: racial and power dynamics at play when someone says that

552
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: being polyamorous is less aligned with white supremacy than other

553
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: relationship structures that just makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm honestly

554
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: not even sure what exactly it is. I want to

555
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: double tap on that a little bit. Lindy's husband is

556
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: a person of color, Lindy is white. I really deeply

557
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: bristled at the bit where Aham tells her that because

558
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: she's white, she or he guess he doesn't tell her that.

559
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: She believes that because she is white, she might not

560
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: be as attuned as he is to this dynamic where

561
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: she might want to be owning a person of color.

562
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: It may be grounded in white supremacy in ways that

563
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: she's not really able to see. Ergo, she should, you know,

564
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: get on board with this way of thinking.

565
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: I can't even articulate why, but I.

566
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: Found that deeply like I hate Why do I hate

567
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: that so much?

568
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 4: What?

569
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: You should hate that so much?

570
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: Because it's just you should hate It's textbook manipulation that

571
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 3: makes no sense there's so many things that play in

572
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: that dynamic that Lindy sort of addresses in being like

573
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 3: I can't fully understand because he's a person of color,

574
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: Like if you look sort of into his storytelling. He

575
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: also this is another thing we will talk about. He

576
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 3: is a very, very successful man. He wants you to

577
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 3: know that he has. He's his own performer and comedian.

578
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 3: He is very successful, and in a lot of his

579
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: work he talks about how the separation from his Nigerian

580
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: father has given him identity issues. He doesn't, you know,

581
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 3: he grew up with his white mother. He struggles with

582
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: his race. So having this wife who is like reinstilling

583
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 3: him as a black man, you can tell, benefits both

584
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: of them. So they're both playing into this dynamic where

585
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 3: he's like, oh, yes, I understand blackness. You make me

586
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: feel that way. And so when I say monogamy is

587
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: basically slavery, you want to agree with me because you

588
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: have to believe that. You know, our relationship is this

589
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: positive dynamic of like politics and whatever, and really, you know,

590
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 3: your relationship should be about your own personal needs and desires,

591
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 3: Like you, your personal into relationship cannot fix racism, So

592
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: don't date for that reason.

593
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: That's how you'll end up with a.

594
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 3: Guy who's like, oh, sorry, you wanted to only sleep

595
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: with me and our marriage?

596
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: Are you a slave? Moner?

597
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: Ashley, if I had a nickel for every CIS head

598
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: man who told me every white SIS headman who told

599
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: me that we should get together because it would be

600
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: a good a good thing for society, if we had

601
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: said or may a mixed race baby, I would only

602
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: have like three Nichols.

603
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: But that's nice, that's Nichols. It's you know.

604
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: And obviously there are normal interracial couples and relationships. I

605
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 3: have dated interracially. Obviously there's people who are normal about it.

606
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: But there are people.

607
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,959
Speaker 3: Who do it because they see it as this like

608
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: political status that says, look at me, I'm so progressive,

609
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: and using your relationship that way is dangerous, and I

610
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 3: think at its core, Adult Braces is the story of that.

611
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 3: It's the danger of using your relationship as part of

612
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: your identity politics and the failure of identity politics when

613
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: you're also trying to sell your identity to fans because

614
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 3: it makes you money. And so it is this weird

615
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: circle of you know, Lindy and her partner saying stop

616
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: talking about us.

617
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: Stop talking about us, but please talk about us. Please

618
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: talk about us.

619
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 3: Read the book, but only in the way that we

620
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 3: want you to talk about us, and it just locks

621
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: kind of feeds into itself.

622
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: So you mentioned what I feel like is a little

623
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: bit of the elephant in the room, which.

624
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 4: Is what what?

625
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: What kind of pushed this from just something I was

626
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: thinking about just to bug in my brain too. I

627
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: need to talk to someone about this immediately or I

628
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: will pop the email. The email you mentioned, AHM, Lindy's partner.

629
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: So one of the earliest profiles of this book was

630
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: by this phenomenal Slate writer Sachikole Memoirs to Herself, wrote

631
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: a book about her marriage and that and in her

632
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: book that her marriage ends in divorce. I thought the

633
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: piece was a very fair looks.

634
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 3: The book all of that, and just also we'll say

635
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: so she's also a documentarian, So she made a documentary

636
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 3: about Girls Gone Wild for Peacock. I that is based

637
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: on her recording. Yeah, it's based on her reporting that

638
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: she did for I want to say that was BuzzFeed,

639
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: but the piece she did on that guy was the

640
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 3: basis for that. But I just say that to say

641
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 3: she's very good at presenting an even picture right like

642
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 3: she isn't She didn't come there to destroy them, And

643
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: I thought it was actually very polite. Like I was like, dang, somebody,

644
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,959
Speaker 3: maybe Polyamorus would have gone a bit harder and asked

645
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 3: some harder questions.

646
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 2: But I was like, it's not about that. It really

647
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: is about Lindy.

648
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 3: Where Lindy's at right now in her life and what

649
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 3: this book tour means to her, in this book means,

650
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: And I thought it was a great piece. It isn't

651
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: really about the throuple. It's not really about Roy and

652
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 3: aham It briefly mentions them. It says that the weekends

653
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 3: she goes to do the interview royan Ahammer and Boston

654
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 3: working on a joint project.

655
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: That's about all it says about them.

656
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 3: It quotes them on the relationship where they are, you know,

657
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: basically like we love Lindy, we support her so much,

658
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: and that's all it says. Nothing really negative. I'd say

659
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: maybe the most negative thing in the piece is when

660
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: she quotes Lindy saying, I need this book to float

661
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 3: us for a while. You know, things are getting scary

662
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: and I have to take care of my family. And

663
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 3: that's really the only kind of like, oh, you know,

664
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: but nothing negative. But you know, the profile comes out,

665
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: the book comes out, it becomes a bit of a

666
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 3: thing people are talking about, and honestly, I feel like,

667
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: had this email not happen, we wouldn't still be talking

668
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: about it. But then Sachi does an interview on In

669
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 3: Case You Missed It, Slate's podcast and reveals that after

670
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 3: the profile came out, Aham, Roya, and Lindy all emailed

671
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,439
Speaker 3: her very very angry about this.

672
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: Again, polite, nice profile.

673
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: You have got to hear the email that a Ham

674
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: sent the Slate writer who profiled Lindy.

675
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: So here it is.

676
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: This was such a shitty thing to do, Sachi. You

677
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: intentionally skewed this story to fit your own bitter narrative.

678
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: You wasted my time and all of our time to

679
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: write an article that was going to be the same

680
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: no matter what we said. You absolutely dehumanized me, intentionally

681
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: diminished my personhood and career. Roya and I were on

682
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: a shared project in Boston.

683
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: However you ordered it.

684
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: I was performing four shows at the Paramount and Roya

685
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 1: is my producer. I am a person with a life

686
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: and a great career and a complicated life, and you

687
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: boiled me down to a cheater who was on a

688
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: school project making a diorama or some shit. Because you

689
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: are mad about your life. You barely wrote about the book.

690
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: You just wrote rage bait articles specifically designed to direct

691
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: hate toward me. You are a shitty fucking person. You're

692
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: a bitter, untalented, mean girl, and you should absolutely be

693
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 1: ashamed of yourself.

694
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: You fucking suck.

695
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: When Slate reached out for comment, Aham said, yes, the

696
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: email had been a typo, and what he had meant

697
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 1: to say was free Palestine.

698
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 2: She reads Aham's email out loud. The whole thing.

699
00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 3: It is the stereotype of a narcissistic, egotistical man who

700
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 3: is angry that his wife is getting more attention than him,

701
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: and a profile about her. It calls Sachi bitter basically

702
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 3: like because she's divorced and jealous. Basically everything that men

703
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 3: said to Lindy when she was coming up.

704
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: That would make lindigo.

705
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: That's misogyny, he says to this woman, and then c

706
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 3: sees Lindy, Roya and Loya, his girlfriend's on this email.

707
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 2: Roya sends an email to Sachi.

708
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 3: She sees her part you know the partners and hers

709
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 3: is I guess the longest one, but Sachi doesn't read it.

710
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: But girl put that out there, put all the published,

711
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: publish those emails that we want the emails. But she

712
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: does tell us that Roya basically accuses her of being racist,

713
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: saying that Saschi needs therapy, that nobody reads Slate anyway.

714
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 3: And it's you know, a little bitter and angry and

715
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: at times kind of fair and polite. And then Lindy

716
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 3: also sends an email that is polite, but it's basically like,

717
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: you know, you didn't really make Aham look great, like

718
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 3: you should have made him look better. And there's one

719
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 3: quote in the in the article where Saji goes, or

720
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 3: where Lindy goes, I am not trying to do pr

721
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 3: for Aham. Well, I'm always trying to do pr for Aham.

722
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: And it's like that's the issue, is like, yeah, the

723
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 3: book feels like PR for him. You don't even fully

724
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 3: get into the details the conversations that make you decide

725
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 3: to stay with him.

726
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: That's the issue.

727
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: And now that we see, even from a polite piece

728
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: like this, how much it hurt his ego And you're

729
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 3: telling us he helped you edit every line of this

730
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: book he had.

731
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 2: To say in the edit.

732
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 3: It makes me wonder, like how much did he make

733
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: you take out because he wanted to look that he

734
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 3: wanted to look professional.

735
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: You know.

736
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: His biggest complaint to Sagy is I wasn't just working

737
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 3: on a joint project with Roya. I was in Boston

738
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 3: performing a show that I wrote, and Roya is my producer.

739
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 3: And it's like, you're mad that she wasn't specific about

740
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: the show, like it wasn't a profile on you, but

741
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: it just shows you like maybe this is a dynamic

742
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 3: where two women are managing a man's ego, and that

743
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 3: that's the part. It just all kind of feels gross

744
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 3: now when you see that email and you're like, how

745
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 3: can someone be with someone who would be okay with this,

746
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 3: who would not just immediately offer like an apology and

747
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 3: like and I'm so sorry, but it actually would send

748
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 3: another email basically supporting that. It's unthinkaful to me. So

749
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: now it's become this thing of like beyond just a

750
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 3: book about Holly Amory or the failures of like twenty

751
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 3: ten's writing and stuff. It's like, wait a second, Like

752
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: what does this say about like this mean girl identity

753
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 3: politics era that like Lindy did push at the time

754
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 3: where yes, people were kind of like mean to her,

755
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: but like as her response was like yeah, this is

756
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: a witch.

757
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 2: I'm a witch and I'm hunting you. And now she's.

758
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: Still doing that, like she still has that energy with

759
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 3: it where her and her partner like they're responding to

760
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 3: trolls and they're just kind of like, well, you guys

761
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 3: are racist, and it's like, no, we're not racist for

762
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: asking the same questions you are. Or after he sends

763
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 3: this email, they ask for a reply and his response

764
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 3: is just, oh, you know what, my email was a typo.

765
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: I meant to say free Palestine. And it's like you

766
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 3: like maybe in like in twenty twelve that would have

767
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 3: been like sassy, but now it's like how do you

768
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 3: can't send someone a hate email? And then when they

769
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: reply to be like what you can't be like yeah, what, well,

770
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 3: how about Palestine? There's bigger issues?

771
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: No, you email me you had the problem.

772
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 3: How are you gonna be like maybe you should focus

773
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: something that matter when it's like you you.

774
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 2: Were all this up.

775
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 3: But that's what they try to do, Like, you know,

776
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: people pointed out that throughout the book, Roya, the girl girlfriend,

777
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: mostly feels like an empty figure, like she feels like

778
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 3: an extension of Royan Lindy's ego.

779
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: You know, Lindy only lets us.

780
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 3: Know Roya, and as much as roy is attracted to her,

781
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 3: that's all we know about her. We know that she

782
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: helps to manage a Ham's calendar, that's you know, and

783
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 3: that she's skinny and goth and hot. That's what really

784
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 3: matters is she's skinny. She's skinny, She's skinny.

785
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 2: And god and hot.

786
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 3: And people pointed that out, and Lindy's response was, how

787
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: dare you?

788
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: Roya is Persian?

789
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: And with the war happening in Iran, it is racist

790
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: that you bring this up now, And it's like, no,

791
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: you can no. That's the type of like identity polic stuff.

792
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: That's sure.

793
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: Maybe in twenty fourteen people would have been like, oh, yeah, okay,

794
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 3: I assured, well, I won't say anything. But it doesn't

795
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: work anymore. And that's what feels just very out of

796
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 3: touch with the whole thing. And I think that's why

797
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: it's causing so much friction for conservatives liber just across

798
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 3: the board. Everyone is is just upset with something with

799
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: this book.

800
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

801
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: Something that I've seen a little bit of online and

802
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: you kind of hit on it a moment ago is

803
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: that we're weirdos for even talking about this marriage, and

804
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: that I really pushed back on because I do. Just

805
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: like when I was publishing those essays about my personal

806
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: life for fifty bucks a pop, I couldn't then say,

807
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: nobody gets to I want the money that comes with

808
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: talking about my personal life, but nobody better talk about it.

809
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 1: I don't want to see any chatter about what I've

810
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: just told you. It doesn't work that way going.

811
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 3: No criticism, no pushback. Unless it's glowing and positive, then okay,

812
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 3: then you can talk about it, but only if.

813
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: It's the way I like.

814
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 3: And it's like, did she write the book for us

815
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 3: to read it and talk about it or not? Are

816
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 3: we supposed to read it and discuss it and think

817
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 3: about it, or am I just supposed to read it,

818
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: take her word for it and let it go. Because

819
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: I think one of those things is way more interesting.

820
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: The host of the podcast The Stacks, which is all

821
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: about books and reading, had this really great thread that

822
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: was like people might not like it, but actually publicly

823
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: hating on books is good for the book industry because

824
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: people want to be involved in medium that has a

825
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: cultural conversation involved with it. If the whole thing is

826
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: you read this book and it's it's problematic to put

827
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: any kind of opinion about it, good, bad, or the

828
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: other end of the world that you can't do that,

829
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: then books as a medium are going to die out

830
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: because what is the.

831
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: Point of reading a book.

832
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: It can't be part of a conversation on So like, yes,

833
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: I listen. I would absolutely hate it if I wrote

834
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: a book about my marriage and that was really like

835
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: raw and honest and all those things that she's going for,

836
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: and people chimed in with what they really thought. But

837
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: that's why I don't write books like that.

838
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: Because I don't want to hear people.

839
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: I would crumble and like knock out of bed. But yeah,

840
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: I just a book like that under the world. It's

841
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: ultimately good with the medium to have a discussion around.

842
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 3: And it's also not like Lindy doesn't know that we

843
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 3: know she knows this. It's not her first rodeo, this

844
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 3: isn't her first memoir where she's talked about her relationship,

845
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 3: so she had to know they were going to get

846
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 3: this kind of pushback. They had to know there was

847
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 3: going to be backlash, and that's why there was another

848
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 3: substack piece that came out that basically points out, you know,

849
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: she knows this is good for books, it's good for

850
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: book sales. She needs this book to float them. And

851
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 3: it feels a bit manufactured. It feels a bit like

852
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: like did you did you send an email let ah

853
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 3: because you knew that would push this like discourse into

854
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 3: another week, Like because there's no way you thought that's

855
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: going to make me look good or make him look good.

856
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 3: So it's starting to feel a bit like, Okay, yeah,

857
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 3: we are. This is very much a push to sell

858
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: a book, and it is working. Congratulations to her. She

859
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 3: put out a piece that was like in defense of it,

860
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 3: like I'm allowed to be polyamorous. Where their line is,

861
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 3: people aren't fantalizing me. I think that I'm brainwashed and

862
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 3: being used and it's just because no one trusts that

863
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 3: I have my own agency, and that's kind that's.

864
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: How they're pushing back at it.

865
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 3: And I think they know that is also going to

866
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 3: make people angry, because that's not what people have an

867
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 3: issue with so it's just again them wanting to flame

868
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 3: the fan, them wanting to fan the flames because yeah,

869
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: it sells books, that's what they want. But I do

870
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 3: think it's interesting that she's still on the book tour

871
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: and a few people have been talking about the experience

872
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 3: now because it started with Q and as, so she'd

873
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 3: read from the book a Q and A people could

874
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 3: ask whatever, and then people who bought tickets got a

875
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 3: notification that now Q and A questions had to be

876
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 3: sent in beforehand.

877
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: And this was after Slate was.

878
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 3: Published, after the book came out, and there was that

879
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 3: initial pushback, so then it was your questions have to

880
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 3: be pre approved, which other people were like, they didn't

881
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 3: do that at the beginning.

882
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: And then so the Chicago win.

883
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: Was the first date where preapproved questions people went, and

884
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 3: they didn't do a Q and A at all, and

885
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 3: they removed the Q and A from the rest of

886
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 3: the book tour. So I'm so curious what questions people

887
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 3: sent in because I don't think those went her way either.

888
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 3: And apparently she's even stopped reading from the book on

889
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 3: the book tour. At the Chicago date, it was her

890
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 3: and Samantha Irby and they just kind of told stories.

891
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: People said it.

892
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 3: Was more like a stand up show. So it's interesting

893
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 3: that she does seem to sort of be like, well,

894
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 3: I'm just not going to talk about the book then,

895
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 3: like it's upsetting people, I'm not going to talk about

896
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 3: Like then let's just ignore the book. Don't ask me

897
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 3: any questions about the book, like, don't bring up the book.

898
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 3: And it's just like, then, why did you do you

899
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 3: want us to read it or not? Do you want

900
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 3: us to talk about it or not? Like again, it's

901
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 3: this like, you know, kind of a weird dance of

902
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 3: like oh no, no, no, look at me, but look at me,

903
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 3: don't look at me, but look at me, And it's

904
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 3: it's just confusing. It's like, girl, do the book tour,

905
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 3: ask the hard questions, go for that viral moment, like

906
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 3: that's what you want to do. Just embrace it and

907
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 3: do it.

908
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 5: I could bit by bit, page by pay book club

909
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 5: style go through this book and have a million things

910
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 5: to say, just you know, I does I do think

911
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 5: that it does a.

912
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: Great job of showing the.

913
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 3: Don't I don't want to say failures, but just the

914
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 3: pressures of being a feminist or an icon or just

915
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 3: a person of attention really at the time when Lindy

916
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 3: West was. And you know, I also think Samantha Herbie's

917
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 3: involvement in the book presents two really interesting pictures, right because,

918
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 3: like you said, Samantha, we came up kind of reading.

919
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 3: She also very much putting her life on the page.

920
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 3: You know, in Chicago she had a whole live show

921
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 3: where she would tell like embarrassing sex stories and stuff.

922
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 3: But now I would say, lead's a pretty private life.

923
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 3: You know, still writes about herself but has gone into

924
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 3: TV private life. But I don't think she ever felt

925
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 3: this burden of like I need to be everything for everyone,

926
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 3: maybe because as a black woman, she understood you can't

927
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 3: do that at all, whereas Lindy felt like I have

928
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 3: to be everything for fat women, I have to be

929
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 3: everything for the body positivity movement. And she talks about

930
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 3: that pressure and it has led her to making personal

931
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 3: relationship everything decisions based on that pressure and that vision

932
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 3: of herself.

933
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: So I think reading it from that view and not.

934
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 3: So much as like the messy polyamory book is a

935
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 3: lot more interesting.

936
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: Definitely, it reminds me of I read Isa Ray's first book,

937
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: Misadventures of an Awkward Black Girl, which is very much

938
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: like personal stories. I love the book, but then and

939
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: this was the book came out right when her success

940
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: was like starting to sort of like like take like

941
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: I watched her website, so I had always known who

942
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: she was, but like right when it was starting going

943
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: to get like big. And then like years later, after

944
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: she was already like a certified A List star, I

945
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: saw her to a talk where she was like, looking back,

946
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: I wish I had bet a little bit more judicious

947
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: about how I gave pieces of myself to the public.

948
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: I wish I had I wish I had.

949
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: Bet a little bit more thoughtful about how I doled

950
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: out these incredibly private pieces of myself, because once they're

951
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: out there, you can't get them back.

952
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: And I think that always.

953
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 1: Stuck with me. And I wonder if it's part of

954
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: what you're saying is that you know, we're not in

955
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: the era of the twenty tens where that where that

956
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: trade off is necessarily going to be worth it or

957
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: come with longevity. And I wonder if we're sort of

958
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 1: seeing the effects of sort of just the different kind

959
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: of digital media climate that were actually in today in

960
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six.

961
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and now I think it's the other side of it,

962
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 3: where people are too thoughtful about what they want to

963
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 3: put it out. They know that at this point they

964
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 3: can use it to control the narrative, and that is

965
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 3: what Linda says in the slate but an interview where

966
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 3: she says, I wanted to correct the narrative. I wanted

967
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 3: to put out the definitive version of my story. And

968
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 3: so it becomes this thing where that she overthinks so

969
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 3: that it can be presented in a feminist way of

970
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 3: how she came to this choice, where other people don't

971
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 3: get to say she was coerced into this.

972
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 2: He lied it wasn't ethical because.

973
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 3: She can say, no, I have put out the you know,

974
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 3: this is the story, this is how it went. And

975
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 3: it ends up being a little more overthought and fake

976
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 3: than authentic and real like it was in those old

977
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 3: days when it was like, oh, girl, you did not

978
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 3: need to tell the world this, you know. It doesn't

979
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 3: have that authenticity to it. It just feels like, oh,

980
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,240
Speaker 3: this is what you wanted to tell the world. Okay,

981
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 3: is this what you're trying to tell yourself too? But

982
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 3: if you ask that question.

983
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 2: Then it's don't don't stops?

984
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: How dare you have an allo dated about this book

985
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 1: that you paid to read?

986
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: You paid to read? How dare you how?

987
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 3: Oh, just because I ask in the book in my relationship,

988
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 3: isn't you know?

989
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 2: Stable? And if this is just me trying to distract myself,

990
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 2: you think you can ask that question. It's like girl,

991
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: and you know, I think it's interred.

992
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: The book ends with a fart joke, and that's basically

993
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 3: its conclusion is, Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing,

994
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 3: but I enjoy this right now.

995
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 2: Will it work? I don't know.

996
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 3: And that is kind of her answer to the question

997
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 3: she asked herself. So it doesn't feel like it has

998
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 3: a satisfying ending. It doesn't feel like you know this

999
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 3: woman who finds this beautiful enlightenment. It feels like a

1000
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 3: book setting you up for a breakup memoir.

1001
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: And hey, I'm all for that. I will be right

1002
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: there reading it.

1003
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 3: And then she knows that, so hey, again, kudos to

1004
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 3: her on the book rollout and the sales like it,

1005
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 3: all of it to me for the people who are

1006
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 3: kind of saying like she's out of touch, I again

1007
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 3: for you know, the ways I've said in the book,

1008
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 3: I do think she is. I think a lot of

1009
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 3: the language in the book is also very twenty tens.

1010
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 3: There's like a lot of like Jay's Squeeze moire and

1011
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: like awkward turtle and all of that. I think maybe

1012
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,240
Speaker 3: shows like a datedness. But if it comes to getting

1013
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 3: media attention and knowing how to publicize a book in

1014
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 3: the year twenty twenty six, Lyndy West knows what she's doing.

1015
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 3: I think she knows exactly what she's doing. I think

1016
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 3: Aham knows exactly what he's doing. When he sends a

1017
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 3: very famous Slate writer an angry email, they had to

1018
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 3: know that wasn't going to stay private. And if they

1019
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,439
Speaker 3: did think it was gonna stay private, then I think

1020
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 3: that speaks to a whole other disconnect.

1021
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: So what do you say.

1022
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: To somebody who was listening to you, to you your

1023
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: thoughts on this book, who was thinking, actually is the

1024
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: hater of the year? How critical? What do you say

1025
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: to someone who's listening. I know someone listening is thinking

1026
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: that absolutely probably. I mean I feel like I've said

1027
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: very fair.

1028
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 4: You know.

1029
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: I think my issue mainly and this is in my

1030
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 3: piece for Harper's isn't you know, feeling disappointed in Lindy

1031
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 3: or like she let me down, like I said she.

1032
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 3: I've never felt like Lindy west owes me anything. I

1033
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 3: think the most beautiful thing she can do and be

1034
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 3: is to live her own life for her own choices.

1035
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 3: And those, to me my favorite moments in the book

1036
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 3: when she is on the road trip by herself and

1037
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: pushing herself to do something that is new to her,

1038
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 3: that isn't sleeping with her husband's girlfriend. You know, I'm

1039
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 3: glad she tried that too. Sure, I've slept with husband's

1040
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 3: boy girlfriends. Yes, Lindy do it. But I was more

1041
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 3: interested when it was her pushing herself to like go

1042
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 3: on a hike, or to do something difficult, or to

1043
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 3: revisit a challenge that she felt she previously failed in

1044
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 3: this time accomplishing.

1045
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 2: And so I have positive things to say.

1046
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 3: I just think we see a more interesting Lindy in

1047
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 3: those moments when she can admit her failures, when she

1048
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 3: isn't concerned with appearing perfect for her fans or you know,

1049
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 3: trying to be perfect so she can own the trolls,

1050
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: when she is just honest in the book about her

1051
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 3: mistakes her failures, the depression. That's when I think the

1052
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 3: book is at its best. Also, when she's with her friends,

1053
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 3: that's when the book is at its best. And it's

1054
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 3: so frustrating that she doesn't seem to see that. You know,

1055
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 3: she talks about like she's away from Ahm and she's

1056
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 3: with Sam, and when she gets to Michigan, she gets

1057
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 3: to her hotel and Sam and her wife have left

1058
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 3: Lindy all of these treats that are her favorites. And

1059
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 3: it is the moment we learn the most about Lindy

1060
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 3: Kata in the whole book. And it's because Sam is

1061
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 3: like your favorite granola bars, because you like this, your

1062
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 3: favorite this, because you like this. And it's like, Carl,

1063
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 3: do you not see you have these friends who love

1064
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,399
Speaker 3: and know you more than this man who has been

1065
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 3: giving you like stress highs, And you know you want

1066
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 3: to see her in those moments. You want to be like,

1067
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 3: what does Sam have to say about what Ahum did? Like,

1068
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 3: let's get into that, and instead she circles back around

1069
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: to but my whole world is Aham. He's my home.

1070
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 3: That's what matters the most. And that to me is

1071
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 3: like where the disappointing parts are that. It comes back

1072
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 3: to that and then tries to present that as a

1073
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 3: perfect picture, and the polyamory is a perfect picture. And

1074
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 3: it's like Lindy, it doesn't have to be perfect. You

1075
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 3: don't owe us perfection. Polyamory does not owe anyone perfection.

1076
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 3: I think she also feels this burden, you know, because

1077
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 3: now she isn't just someone who has to represent all

1078
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 3: fat people. She's also someone who's going to have to

1079
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 3: represent all ethical nomenogamous couples. And if their relationship fails,

1080
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 3: it's a failure for all ethical nomenogamy. And I understand

1081
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 3: the pressures of that being a public poly person, but

1082
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 3: you have to let that go. You know, Monogamous people

1083
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 3: have bad relationships. Polyamorous peopil and polygamists have bad relationships

1084
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 3: and go on to have other relationships that are good

1085
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 3: that are bad.

1086
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 2: It's part of it, you know.

1087
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 3: Polyamory doesn't make your relationship inherently good. It doesn't make

1088
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 3: you a perfect partner who's great with honesty and jealousy automatically.

1089
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 3: It doesn't fix things. So when she sells us this

1090
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 3: story of and everything's fixed and everything's perfect, and we

1091
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 3: figured out our sleep schedules, and I actually love sleeping alone.

1092
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 3: It turns out I never wanted to sleep with my husband,

1093
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 3: even though I used to love sleeping with my husband.

1094
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 2: It turns out I did it.

1095
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 3: And it's kind of like you guys don't even fight about,

1096
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 3: like who takes too much time in the shower. You've

1097
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 3: never argued over, like I want a piece of for dinner,

1098
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 3: but oh I want Chinese food, Like it's just presented

1099
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 3: as we have amazing threesomes and everything is great, So

1100
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 3: suck it, haters, And that doesn't work anymore. That's not

1101
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone's buying that story anymore.

1102
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: Ashley, thank you so much for being here. I know

1103
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: you've got exciting projects cooking. Where can folks keep up

1104
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: with you?

1105
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 3: I yeah, you can follow me at the Ashley Ray Everywhere.

1106
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 3: Subscribe to my substack Deep Trouble, which well has to

1107
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 3: have some exciting announcements coming up. If you're in LA,

1108
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 3: look around for some live shows I have coming up.

1109
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, beautiful, Thanks thanks so much for being here.

1110
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:02,919
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me again. I can talk about

1111
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 3: this book for four more hours. I could randomly open

1112
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 3: a page, read a segment and be like we didn't

1113
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 3: even get into the subdom relationship.

1114
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, keep an eye out for Ashley Ray's Adult

1115
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: Brace's book Club.

1116
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 2: Come big tip. We just read it all racist.

1117
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1118
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can read us at

1119
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: Hello at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

1120
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

1121
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,439
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

1122
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative Jonathan Stricklett

1123
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and

1124
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1125
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1126
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1127
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1128
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.

1129
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 4: It was

1130
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 5: H lhas