1 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth. 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 2: We'll get to the heart of the issues that matter 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 2: to you today. 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: We're talking about oil. 5 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: Oil prices have been swinging wildly and the straight of 6 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: removes effectively closed amid the war with Iran, and the 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 2: global energy markets are on the edge as a result. 8 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: So we've got former US Energy Secretary Dan Bururette. He 9 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: worked for President Trump during his first term, and we're 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 2: going to ask him to break it all down. You 11 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: know why traders are panicking whether this twenty billion dollar 12 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: insurance backstop that President Trump is proposing will help also 13 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: Biden and drained the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, So what sort 14 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 2: of a position does that put us in? Are we 15 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: in a dangerous position? So we're going to talk about 16 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: all of that and more oil, energy, the price of energy, 17 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: and what you should know moving forward. So straight talk 18 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 2: from the man who ran the Energy Department during a 19 00:00:53,440 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: really interesting time President Trump's first term. So stay tanned. Well, 20 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 2: great some for you on the show. We've got the 21 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 2: former Energy Secretary Dan Bruett. Thank you for making the time, sir. 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Lis. Great to be with you. 23 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: There's a lot going on in the world right now 24 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: when it comes to energy and oil, we have seen 25 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 2: a lot of volatility in the market as well as 26 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: a result of what's the war and Iran? 27 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: What are traders most worried about right now? 28 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: So what's driving sort of these huge swings and oil 29 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: prices that we've seen. 30 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's trying to price risk. That's what 31 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: they're struggling struggling with right at the moment, is how 32 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: do you price this risk? And it it involves a 33 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: number of different things, obviously price, but also things like duration. 34 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: How long is this conflict? Can allows you know, when 35 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: will these shipments be able to make it through the 36 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: strad When are we going to get the oil that 37 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: we contracted for two months ago, three months ago, four 38 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: months ago. It's just pricing that type of risk. And 39 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: what happens in the marketplace is that when producers declare 40 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: things like force majure, like we saw in the l 41 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: in G space and Katar. You know what that basically 42 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: means is we understand you, we've got a contract with you, 43 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: but we're not going to provide the product. So what 44 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: happens is there's a mad scramble for whatever is available 45 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: on the marketplace, and that means barrels on other ships. 46 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: In the case of LNG, it means cargoes on other ships. 47 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: It's just this mad scramble for what is known as 48 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: this replacement barrel or the replacement cargo. And that's what 49 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: you see in the pricing today. So that's why we 50 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: went from roughly mid seventies or so to literally one 51 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty bucks in about what twenty four hours, 52 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: thirty six hours, something like that, and then all the 53 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: way back down to low eighties. But that's what that's 54 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: all about, and it's really about, you know, it's really 55 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: the psychology of the marketplace rather than the physical availability 56 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: of a oil or a production of oil. 57 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: I should say, kind of reminds me after a liberation 58 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: Day with the sort of volatility we saw, you know, 59 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,839 Speaker 2: how challenging. I mean, obviously, if you're the Trump administration, 60 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: you can't exactly map out with you one hundred percent 61 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: certainty how long this war is going to last. We've 62 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: seen Sexuary hug Seth sort of give a more undefined timeline. 63 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: We've seen President Trump recently say it could be a 64 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: month and kind of tighten the timeline. How much of 65 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: that from the President. Do you think isn't reaction to 66 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: sort of the volatility we're seeing. 67 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's a factor. I mean, I don't 68 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: think that it's completely dependent upon that. I mean, he's 69 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: looking at this as a military exercise, not an economic 70 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: exercise per se. But I do think it has an 71 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: impact on his decision, and it has to. He has 72 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: to be mindful of all of the trickle down effects, 73 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: if you will, or you know, the sort of the 74 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: after effect of whatever activity that you're undertaking with regard 75 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: to the military. So I think it's a factor, But again, 76 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: I don't think it's the primary decision I think, or 77 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: the primary factor. The President, as I understand it, is 78 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: taking a very long term view of this. You know, 79 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: the strait of horror moves. Everyone has known. If you've 80 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: been in the energy business for a while, you've known 81 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: that that's a choke point. You know that it's vulnerable 82 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: and it has the need to impact world markets. But 83 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, the President has said that he wants to 84 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: correct the situation. We've got a regime in Iran that's 85 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: owned that piece of geography for forty seven years and 86 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: they've used it as a weapon against the rest of 87 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: the world, and the President says enough enough, So he's 88 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: taken a long term view and he's going to rectify 89 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: the situation. 90 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 2: Well, we've seen ships rightfully concerned with trying to pass 91 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 2: through the straight makes a lot of sense right now. 92 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: The administration's trying to stabilize shipping with a twenty billion 93 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: dollars insurance backstop for tankers. From your experience running the 94 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: Energy Department, well, is that enough to convince companies to 95 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: send ships back into the region and to get the 96 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: job done? 97 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it is because as I understand what 98 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: they're offering, it's called reinsurance, so it's not what's called 99 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: first loss coverage. Those are companies that for instance Lloyd's 100 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: of London, you know, others who provide that first coverage 101 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: in the marketplace. What I think the President is offering 102 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: through the DFC here is backstop coverage reinsurance for those 103 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: first loss insurers. It allows them basically to spread their 104 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: risk over a bigger pool of capital. So that's not 105 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: assuming all of this loss by themselves, and is the 106 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: way the financial markets work that twenty billion dollars can 107 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: be strenched out to provide roughly one hundred billion or 108 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: two hundred billion worth of coverage in the marketplace, So 109 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: it is an ample amount of money in my view. 110 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: Now that's coming with the understanding that I'm not in 111 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: this business and I don't see what the daily risks are, 112 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: but my instinct tells me, after spending twelve years with 113 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: USAA down in San Antonio in the insurance business, that's 114 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: going to go a long way to relieving a lot 115 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: of the psychological fear, if you will, and risk of 116 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: putting your ships into that strait. 117 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 2: And then you also have the security factor to fear 118 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: of wanting to take on that job as well, given 119 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: the volatility. 120 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: And yeah, that's true, that's truly. So. I mean, you know, 121 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the conversation has been focused on the 122 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: commercial aspects of this, but look, if you're a ship captain, 123 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: are more importantly, not more importantly, but if you know importantly, 124 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: if you're a CEO of one of these companies, you 125 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: know you're thinking about your employees and you don't want 126 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: to put them in harm's way. So sometimes it doesn't 127 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: matter what the insurance coverage might be, it's just you 128 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: won't put your people in harm's way. In rightfully So 129 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: that's why I think what the President is proposing, you know, 130 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: this insurance regime or this insurance plan, combined with a 131 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: more visible residence of the US Navy in the Strait, 132 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: those two things combined, I think are going to do 133 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: go a long way to alleviating that that risk that 134 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: that people see today. 135 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: You know, we keep hearing about the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, 136 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: and you know, obviously you know, as everyone knows our 137 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: emergency oil savings account, it's around four hundred and fifteen 138 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: barrels right now. I believe, oh, uncomfortably low is that 139 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: I know, you know, Biden is to blame for draining 140 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: it pretty significantly. 141 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: What sort of position does that put us in? Not 142 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: a good one, to be blunt, not a good one. Look, 143 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: I think you know it holds roughly seven hundred, seven 144 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen million barrels. We want to keep that 145 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: as close to that number as possible because you never 146 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen and what it's there for 147 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: or actual emergencies. It's when you cannot physically get a 148 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: barrel of oil, you know, there's a complete stoppage in 149 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: the marketplace. That's what it's there for. And it takes 150 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: a lot of oil to replace that. If you ever 151 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: reached that point, and we did back in nineteen seventy three, 152 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: which is why the reserve was created in nineteen seventy four. 153 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: Those were true emergencies. We're not there yet with this, 154 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, this conflict in the Middle East. We're nowhere 155 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: near it because we're supplied with you know, with oil 156 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: today in the marketplace. I think our total production number 157 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: worldwide is somewhere around one hundred and six million barrels 158 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: per day, or demand is somewhere around one hundred and 159 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: four one hundred and five, So we clearly have enough 160 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: supply in the marketplace. What we're dealing with is a 161 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: logistics problem just getting it through the straight It's an 162 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: infrastructure problem getting the product to market. The President's dealing 163 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: with that from a you know, a military standpoint, which 164 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: is the right approach. But it doesn't mean that we 165 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: have to fleep the strategic patrol in reserve at this point. 166 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: I would suggest that we don't want to do that 167 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: given its low, relatively low status at the moment. I 168 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: think it's roughly fifty eight percent full, give or take, 169 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: based on what we know today. 170 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: You know, walk us through what you did as energy 171 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: secretary during President Trump's first term and what he's done 172 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: so far on the second term, and which is energy 173 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: independence at large and kind of how that has positioned 174 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: us to where we currently are. 175 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, happy to to you know, to shair some 176 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: of the things we did in the early part of 177 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: the first time the president when Brent Perry was the 178 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: secretary in the first half of the first term. I 179 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: was a secretary in the second half, but in the 180 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: first half, I was a deputy secretary. So I worked 181 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: closely with Rick and the team, you know, to work 182 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: on the president's agenda. He called us in very very 183 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: early and he said, look, here's the deal. We have 184 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: too much regular in this industry. People are hamstrung. They 185 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: can't produce the way they want to produce. Importantly, he said, 186 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, they can't export and they can't move the 187 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: product around as easily as they would like to. You 188 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: guys need to get busy looking at these regulations and 189 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: see who we can do. And then he reminded us, 190 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: and you may remember this, he said, if you're going 191 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: to propose new regulation and for everyone you propose, you 192 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: got to eliminate too. That was the very direct order 193 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: he gave us. So that's exactly what we did, and 194 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: we went to work working on things like liquified natural gas, 195 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: which was a growing industry here in the United States 196 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: and still is. But we did very simple things. I'll 197 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: just give you a quick example. If you wanted to 198 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: build a small LNG facility for expport, here in the US, 199 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: you first have to come to the Department of Energy 200 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: and get what's known as a public interests permit. And 201 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: what it basically said was, yeah, you know it would 202 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: be in the public interest if you, mister capitalists, put 203 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: your money at risk to build this facility, as if 204 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: the Department of Energy knows anything about investment or knows 205 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: anything about what might be in the public interest. And 206 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: then if you got that, you went over to the 207 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to get the actual permit to 208 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: build the facility. But then it was one more step. 209 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: If you wanted to export that LNG, you had to 210 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: come back to the Department of Energy and ask for 211 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: permission to export the product. So three big steps that 212 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: are enormously expensive. It is not uncommon for this to 213 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: cost tens of millions of dollars in legal fees and 214 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: everything else to get these permits. So we eliminate the 215 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: first step you just as I said. You know, Rick 216 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: and I got together and we said, wait a minute, 217 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: you know anything about you know, how do you do 218 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: this in terms of an investment. It's not our money 219 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: that we're putting at risk, it's they're putting their own 220 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: money at risk in the free market. If they lose 221 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: their money, they lose their money. Why are we just 222 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: holding them up to getting these permits? So we eliminated 223 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: those kinds of things. It's a very common sense approach 224 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: to how you approach regulation, and it really did unleash 225 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: a lot of investment. We had a number of final 226 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: investment decisions and I went forward. During our first term, 227 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: we did a number of other things, but I guess 228 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: to sum it all up, the President gave us a 229 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: very direct war, use common sense before you propose these things, 230 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: and use common sense to see what you might be 231 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: able to undo. And as a result, in twenty nineteen, 232 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: we became a net energy exporter here in the United 233 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: States for the very first time in my lifetime. So 234 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: it became energy and dependent, if you will. In twenty nineteen, 235 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: you know. 236 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 2: Which is obviously great, and you know, I would just 237 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: be doing It's wild that, you know, that wouldn't be 238 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: the goal all waste. There's talk about you look at 239 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 2: that in the developments in the United States. But you 240 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: also there's also been talk about bringing more of Venezuelan 241 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: oil back into the market to trendy easy when you 242 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: look at what President Trump's done with Maduro and now 243 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: we sort of have a more helping hand. I guess 244 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: you could say Venezuela controlling hand. I don't know, ever, 245 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: you know, and then looking ahead at what is potential 246 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: in Iran depending on how everything goes down there, what 247 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: does that mean for oil for the United States and 248 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: just for the world moving forward. If you can kind 249 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: of get Middle East under control, and then we also 250 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: have more control in Venezuela. 251 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: Well, I mean you're limiting that choke point that we 252 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: talked about earlier in the Strait of Hormuz. So I mean 253 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: Venezuela is on the water obviously, so I mean they 254 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: have an oil that they producer. It is called heavy 255 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: sour crude. And fortunately many of the refiners here in 256 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: the US Gulf Coast are set up to refine exactly 257 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: that type of oil, and they did for many, many years. 258 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: So Petavesa, which is a national oil company in Venezuela, 259 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: was actually one of the better run oil companies in 260 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: the world up until the Shobas administration took it over 261 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: and literally ran it in the ground, and then Maduro 262 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: whatever was left of it, he ran, you know, he 263 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: ran into the ground. But it was a very well 264 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: run oil company and a lot of again, a lot 265 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: of our refiners are set up for that for that 266 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: type of oil. The larger point, though, is that because 267 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: it's available, that doesn't get stuck in these choke points. 268 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: You know, it reduces the rittis around the world, not 269 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: just the United States, but around the world that that 270 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: oil can become available, and I think that's the important 271 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: work that President Trump is doing. The other point I'll 272 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: make too is that right now, Maduro and Delsea Rodriguez 273 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: to some degree, but Maduro, because he was sanctioned, because 274 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: Padavesa was sanctioned, didn't really have a market for that oil, 275 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: with the exception of China. So they had to sell 276 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: that market at a discount, a pretty steep discount, about 277 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: ten to fifteen dollars barrel, and most of it was 278 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: going to China, much the same way that much of 279 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: the Iranian oil today is going to China at a 280 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: large discount. So it'll be important to see how bringing 281 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: Venezuela back online. Perhaps once this conflict is done in 282 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: the Middle East, if Iran chooses to return to civilized 283 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: society and their oil comes back on the market, it'll 284 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: be interesting to see how stable the world markets become 285 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: as a result of that. It'll also be interesting to 286 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: see how China deal with the loss of discounted oil. 287 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: Keep in mind, they're in export country. They rely on manufacturing, 288 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: they're heavily energy independent. If their energy costs go up 289 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: because they don't have access to this discounted oil, it'll 290 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: be interesting to see what happens to their inflation numbers, 291 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: and then, by extension, what happens to their positioning in 292 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: the world economy. So there's a lot going on. It's 293 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: a very very busy time, but it's also an exciting 294 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: time if these regimes go away and this energy comes 295 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: back to the world market. Got to take a quick 296 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: commercial break. 297 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: If you like what you're hearing, please share on social 298 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: media or senate to your family and friends. 299 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: This is a bit random. 300 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: But when you look at our power grid and you 301 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: look at AI and data centers, how much pressure is 302 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: that putting on our power grid? Is that something to 303 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: be thinking about. 304 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, an enormous amount of pressure. And it's not 305 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: just data centers, it's the economic growth. It's a bit misleading. 306 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: Some of the press coverage I've seen or recently tends 307 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: to for at least that the addition of a data 308 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: center actually, you know, just linear, your progression puts that 309 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: amount of pressure on the grid. There's no question that 310 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: their energy intents. But more and more of these hyperscalers 311 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: and more and more of these data center developers are 312 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: putting generation behind the grid and they're willing to pay 313 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: for their own generation, and that's an important step forward. 314 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: But when you just look at the growth curves, they're 315 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: they're phenomenal. I mean, it's just amazing how much we're 316 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: talking about. I was just reviewing some data for some 317 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: work I'm going to do with Standford Business School this week, 318 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: and you know, we're going to move these are these 319 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: are metrics that no one really understands, but I'm going 320 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: to say them anyway. We're going to move from about 321 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: four hundred tarawahde hours worldwide to over one hundred tarratwade hours. 322 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: Just trust me, those are big numbers. But that difference 323 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: is the size of the economy of Japan. That's how 324 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: much energy they use in Japan. So the growth rate 325 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: in data centers over the course of the next six 326 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: years is the equivalent of adding the entire higher country 327 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: of Japan to the world energy market. That's how big 328 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: these things are. 329 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: That's greaty, So how are we going to sustain that? 330 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: Well? I think I think, you know, again back to 331 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: what President Trump was doing in the very first or 332 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: early parts of the term, our term. You know, he 333 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: was very interested at that time in nuclear power, and 334 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: he thought that that was an answer. And he was very, 335 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: very frustrated, candidly with our inability to build nuclear here 336 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: in the United States. And you know, as one of 337 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: the areas where he really pushed Rick and I and 338 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: he pushed the NRC. He said, you've got to figure 339 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: this out. He said, you know, it seems like France 340 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: builds one every month, and we can't build one except 341 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: for every thirty years, So what's going on here? And 342 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: he was exactly right. And you know, he also recognized 343 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: very early that we were dependent upon Russia for our 344 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: nuclear fuel cycle. We were as dependent on Russia as 345 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, as Germany was for natural guests. 346 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: You know, Germany was buying natural gas from Russia for years, 347 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: and Mike Pompeio and I spent a lot of time 348 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: over there telling him, you're too dependent on Russia. What 349 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: turns out that we were very on Russia for for 350 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: nuclear fuel. So we started a program at due to 351 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: create what's called high SA l EU each a l 352 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: EU HALU, and what that is is a fuel source 353 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: for these very advanced to very small modular reactors. And 354 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: it's an exciting time in the nuclear business because if 355 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: these things are commercialized in the next two to three 356 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 1: to four five years, we can actually meet that demand 357 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: that I just talked about with regard to data centers 358 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 1: and some of the other things that we're seeing on 359 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: our electricity grid today. 360 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: But you know, as we rely more on AI as 361 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: a society, we already know where power grid is. 362 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: Susceptible to attack. 363 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: So does that put us in a more vulnerable position? 364 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, everyone's in a vulnerable position when you 365 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: think about cybersecurity, I mean, our lives have become so 366 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: dependent upon online services of one type or another that 367 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: you're almost by definition, exposing yourself every time you get 368 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: on your telephone. So everybody's vulnerable to some degree. What 369 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: I think we've done a fairly good job with regard 370 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: to the grid is cutting off the access to more 371 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: sensitive types of information that Iran or North Korea, Russia, 372 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: whoever it might be, I would have access to. And 373 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: I think today, with the adoption of AI and with 374 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: some of the with some of the developments around things 375 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: like quantum computing, we've been able to severely reduce the 376 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: cyber risks that we faced ten years ago. Quantum computing 377 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: in particular is very, very interesting, and I won't get 378 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: into the details, but when you're dealing with cubits and entanglement, 379 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: it may at some point in the future make cybersecurity 380 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: completely irrelevant because there's just no way to break the 381 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: encrypted data that goes over a quantum computer. 382 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: I'm realizing there's a lot I still need to. 383 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: Learn from before we go. 384 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: Is there anything else you'd like to leave us with? 385 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 1: Just the simple fact that I'm excited. I mean, we 386 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: all our hearts all go out to the men and 387 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: women who serve in the military and have to defend 388 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: us each and every day, and who are fighting the 389 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: conflict that we see in the Middle East. The fact 390 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: of the matter is is that once this is over 391 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: and everybody comes home and the energy markets stabilize, we're 392 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: all going to realize that the work that we've all 393 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: done over the course of the last two decades or 394 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,959 Speaker 1: so to make America more energy dependent is really going 395 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: to pay enormous dividends over the course of the next 396 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: two decades. And that's exciting because as we think about 397 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: how our economy is going to be shaped by artificial intelligence, 398 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: all the technologies that are being developed, we hope that 399 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: they're built here because that means jobs, and it means 400 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: economic security for all Americans, and I'm excited about that. 401 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 2: I want to thank you as Secretary, but you told 402 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: me to call you Dan, so I'm going to say Dan, 403 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: very very interesting. Learned a lot from you. I still 404 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 2: have a lot to learn with some of the last 405 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: parts of the conversation with AO. I really appreciate you 406 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: making the time, sir, well. 407 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. It's been fun. 408 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 2: Those Former Energy Secretary Dan Burretts appreciate him for making 409 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 2: the time to come on the show. Appreciate you guys 410 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you 411 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 2: can listen throughout the week. I also wanted to thank John, Cassie, 412 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: and my producer for putting the show together. 413 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: Until next time.