WEBVTT - Two Ts Presents: Two Jersey Js: Mean Girls

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<v Speaker 1>Hey guys, Hi, how is everybody. It's Jackie Goldschneider and

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<v Speaker 1>we are two Jersey.

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<v Speaker 2>Jays and we just had a we I got some

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<v Speaker 2>d MS last week about our audio, so just FYI

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<v Speaker 2>it's fixed.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we have all new Mike's brands, banking new mic

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<v Speaker 1>Actually hear us.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's like.

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<v Speaker 1>The only piece of good news I've had in the

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<v Speaker 1>past few days. My son broke part of his knee

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<v Speaker 1>in a basketball game and he had surgery this week,

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<v Speaker 1>and oh my goodness, I feel like there is nothing

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<v Speaker 1>like watching your kid in pain. Oh it's the worst.

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<v Speaker 1>So he is so uncomfortable. So I am just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I am just dealing with all of that right now.

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<v Speaker 1>We just got out of the hospital. So but on

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<v Speaker 1>the road to recovery. So it's Friday.

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<v Speaker 2>Good things to come. We're going to see Michael Rappaport tonight.

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<v Speaker 1>I am not going.

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<v Speaker 2>You're not you know, We're gonna got cans.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't even sleep last night because I stayed in

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<v Speaker 1>the bed with Aiden. You did yet to help him,

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<v Speaker 1>So no, I am not going. But maybe i'll see

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<v Speaker 1>him when he comes back to Jersey, because he's coming

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<v Speaker 1>back into me.

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<v Speaker 2>He's coming. Well, that's I think that's he's going to

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<v Speaker 2>speak on Israel. This is more of his comedy show.

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<v Speaker 2>But oh okay, yeah, we're excited to go on with

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<v Speaker 2>some friends. We love us some Michael Rappaport.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah, so fun. Well, I'll live vicariously through you. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm getting a cat tomorrow. I'm so excited. So I

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<v Speaker 1>got it tonight. My my Friday night activity is going

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<v Speaker 1>to pet coat to pick up cat stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Haven't had a pet since I'm twelve years old.

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<v Speaker 2>I keep telling you can take one of these, but

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<v Speaker 2>I can't seem to like unload them on anybody. But

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<v Speaker 2>you have one cat. I have two cats, Jack, you

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<v Speaker 2>have two black cats.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought that was the same cat walking around here.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's like Halloween in here. My kids suckered me

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<v Speaker 2>at COVID. Oh they're cute, They're not cute. Moving on,

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<v Speaker 2>go ahead, we have an exciting topic.

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<v Speaker 1>We do. I love this topic by way, very strong

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<v Speaker 1>feelings about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, me too. So I have not seen Me and

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<v Speaker 2>Girls of the movie. Have you the original? Of course

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<v Speaker 2>I've seen you. Oh I haven't seen the Rien now,

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<v Speaker 2>so I haven't either. But everybody's talking about it. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>So Jackie and I thought it was a great time

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about real mean girls.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and like not only mean girls in high school,

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<v Speaker 1>middle school, middle school mean girls might be worse, by

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<v Speaker 1>the way, but not only that age group, but like

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<v Speaker 1>mean women, like women are really mean to each other something.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, And we both signed up for show where it's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of times not always but rewarded and I

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<v Speaker 2>think people like get off on it, right, and I'm not.

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<v Speaker 2>I joined that show, So this is not it's not

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<v Speaker 2>even judgment. It's really more like an observation that thinking

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<v Speaker 2>it through and thinking about especially the way that since

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<v Speaker 2>I've joined, I've taken a lot of mean social media

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<v Speaker 2>comments and I've been you know, we we've all sort

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<v Speaker 2>of taken We take digs at each other, and sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>it's fun and sometimes it's shady, and sometimes it's hurtful

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<v Speaker 2>and mean. And I don't know, like, is there a

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<v Speaker 2>line not just in reality television, but also jack and

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<v Speaker 2>I were talking about just in terms of like everyday

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<v Speaker 2>lives as women living in suburbia, and there's always sort

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<v Speaker 2>of like this. It seems like there's this pecking order

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<v Speaker 2>and the mean girls always on top.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean do you know where I see it

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<v Speaker 1>the most is on like these Facebook mom groups that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a part of. If you say something and you

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<v Speaker 1>have like there's one little iota of something wrong with

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<v Speaker 1>what you say, the other moms jump all over you. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>like they just attack you and tell you everything you're

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<v Speaker 1>doing wrong. And you know, in Suburbia, what I find

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<v Speaker 1>is not so much outright meanness.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just that that need to be snarky, wanky, one up.

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<v Speaker 1>Cooky, exclusive, that need to look right through people who

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<v Speaker 1>are not in your circle. That doesn't go away.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think, well, let's talk about housewives. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>there it because I feel like that's you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>Housewives's sort of like a microcosm of real life, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is definitely part of it, that pecking order.

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<v Speaker 2>But specifically, we have just watched and the reunion of

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<v Speaker 2>Salt Lake City, Yes, so you know, there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of talk of the Monica of it all. I actually

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<v Speaker 2>heard Tamra and Teddy talking about Monica and they sort

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<v Speaker 2>of I think they feel like she has been victimized

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit. When I watched the entirety of the season,

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<v Speaker 2>I definitely got a mean girl vibe, like to say

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<v Speaker 2>the least.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean she fought dirty, like when she would

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<v Speaker 1>say things, when she would insult people or come back

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<v Speaker 1>at people. It was very mean things about their appearance,

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<v Speaker 1>about she would call Lisa Barlowe old, she would talk

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<v Speaker 1>about her her wrinkles. I mean she was she just

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<v Speaker 1>went low.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh listen, And that's very common in housewives culture. But

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<v Speaker 2>for me, it was the idea that when she was

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<v Speaker 2>doing the Reality of Ante's, when she was in charge

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<v Speaker 2>of that page and then finding out like the ways

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<v Speaker 2>in which they attacked the other women and then they mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they went after their kids. I think Whitney

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<v Speaker 2>was saying, how and that's we all know as mothers,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the absolute worst. So I don't know she claims

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<v Speaker 2>it was all about Jen. It sounded to me like

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<v Speaker 2>she was attacking every women and doing it in a

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<v Speaker 2>way that's so upsetting, I think for us, because there's

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<v Speaker 2>so much anonymous trolling to think that you're working with

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<v Speaker 2>someone on a daily or on a daily on you

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<v Speaker 2>know whatever throughout a season that was doing that anonymous cowardly.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, where she was even invested in the show. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's one thing to get on the show and be

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<v Speaker 1>Lisa Rena okay, and I have nothing against Lisa Renna,

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<v Speaker 1>but she was a villain. Or Erica Jane. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>really know her. I mean i've met her, but she's

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<v Speaker 1>a villa in my eyes. They are just they're cold

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<v Speaker 1>and they have no problem like cutting you to the bone, right.

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<v Speaker 1>But Monica, she wasn't on the show when she was

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<v Speaker 1>actively trying to take people down and insult them. And

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<v Speaker 1>I always say, like, there are times when I dislike

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<v Speaker 1>people and I like wanted, you know, I would like

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<v Speaker 1>to see, you know, something bad happen. Let's say, right,

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<v Speaker 1>nothing too bad. But I would never consider being one

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<v Speaker 1>of these people who sits behind a computer screen and

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<v Speaker 1>goes after people online who I don't know. I have

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<v Speaker 1>never in my life. I mean I've only been on

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<v Speaker 1>the show six years and Instagram's been around a lot

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<v Speaker 1>longer than that. I never left a nasty comment on

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<v Speaker 1>somebody's page of celebrities page or anyone's page.

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<v Speaker 2>I've definitely wanted to, right, but I've never done it

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<v Speaker 2>because it's just it was just a little too mean,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if I didn't know somebody.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I've never done that, so to be that

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<v Speaker 1>type a person who could be so outrightly mean. It just.

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<v Speaker 2>It.

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<v Speaker 1>I just don't understand that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I've think on Housewives, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the women will call that confidence and call it you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's under this guise of honesty. I'm just honest. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I think there's certain well we know that

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<v Speaker 2>there's a difference, right between honesty and being mean.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but so what happens if you take a person

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<v Speaker 1>like Monica or Lisa or Erica and then you learn

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<v Speaker 1>about their past and why they might be snarky?

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<v Speaker 2>Does that mean like Monica and her mom? Right, so

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<v Speaker 2>obviously they say what hurt people? Hurt people. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>is that always an excuse. I can tell you that

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<v Speaker 2>I had, we all have had very difficult and challenging lives,

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<v Speaker 2>because that's just the nature I think of life and childhood.

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<v Speaker 2>And but at some point you become an adult and

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<v Speaker 2>you take responsibility, You take responsibility for who you are

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<v Speaker 2>and what you're saying. So it was, Yeah, it was

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<v Speaker 2>hard to watch Monica and her mom. That dynamic is

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<v Speaker 2>definitely a difficult one. Does that excuse Monica's meanness? Not really?

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<v Speaker 2>Not to me?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, of course not. No, I know many people who

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<v Speaker 1>have been through Listen. My mother came over here and impoverished.

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<v Speaker 1>Her family was Holocaust survivors, so you know her parents

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<v Speaker 1>had to like they were in a refugee camp in Siberia.

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<v Speaker 1>They've never been mean people ever, so I don't It's

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<v Speaker 1>not an excuse for me, and I actually can't really

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<v Speaker 1>relate to the people. I don't know why any house

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<v Speaker 1>so ife would want to be a villain.

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<v Speaker 2>What is that? I think it's again and no judgment

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<v Speaker 2>because we're on the show, so we don't have any

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<v Speaker 2>for judgment here, right, But I think that wanting to

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<v Speaker 2>be relevant is tired, so tired of that word and

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<v Speaker 2>that expression, but it definitely drives all of us, right

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<v Speaker 2>and how to get there. Sometimes on these shows it is,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, to be the villain. But I feel like, like,

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<v Speaker 2>for instance, I actually really love Erica Jane, but in

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<v Speaker 2>one of the latest episodes of Beverly Hills, she was

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<v Speaker 2>going at it with the new Richard's and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>blame her. Denise came in looking for blood too, I

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<v Speaker 2>guess the first scene, and then there was another scene

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<v Speaker 2>that they were in and it escalated. Erica stayed very calm,

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<v Speaker 2>but Denise was going after the way she had been

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<v Speaker 2>treated by Erica, and I think that was really what

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<v Speaker 2>she wanted to talk about and to pin her down

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<v Speaker 2>and say you are horrible to me, Say you're sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>admit it. And then it turned into uron what is

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<v Speaker 2>it called OnlyFans? And so is your daughter? So it

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<v Speaker 2>went from definitely being Denise came in and started it.

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<v Speaker 2>She definitely started arguing first, but then it dipped to

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<v Speaker 2>a different level that was just mean, and Denise said it,

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<v Speaker 2>you're a mean woman? Is Erica a mean woman? I

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<v Speaker 2>actually really like Erica. I think she can do mean

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<v Speaker 2>things like all of us can. But at that point

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<v Speaker 2>I felt like that was going, especially with Denise's daughter,

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<v Speaker 2>that was below the belt. Now we're just playing dirty

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<v Speaker 2>and mean, right. I think I.

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<v Speaker 1>Think eric is mean. I do. I think something's little

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<v Speaker 1>mean too. I think Beverly Hills, of all the shows,

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<v Speaker 1>has the most mean girls. I really do. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>not to say I don't like I mean, I've met

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<v Speaker 1>them all and they're pleasant to me, but I think

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<v Speaker 1>on the show they're cold.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, so listen, let's let's talk about this in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of us, because they have mean. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>everybody does mean things. It's capable of mean things, capable

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<v Speaker 2>of saying and thinking mean things, right, It's I think

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<v Speaker 2>there are extremes. So for myself, I think mean things.

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<v Speaker 2>When I first got when I first got on The Housewives,

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<v Speaker 2>the producer said to me, you know, your job is

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<v Speaker 2>to say what you're thinking. And that's really you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the crux of being a housewife is as opposed to

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<v Speaker 2>when you're in you know, normal life, you can think

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<v Speaker 2>nasty things and you don't say them. I think nasty things.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's why I'm never going to be a housewife,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't always say them. I think that there's

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<v Speaker 2>a difference, right I am. I can definitely have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of mean thoughts, a lot of them, and I

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<v Speaker 2>gossip like a mean girl, saying something mean and hurtful

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<v Speaker 2>to someone though I don't think I'm really as capable

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<v Speaker 2>of that as someone else. That doesn't make me better

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<v Speaker 2>or worse because I'm thinking mean shit in my head.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know there are times on the show and

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<v Speaker 1>I have said something that is uncharacteristically mean, and it

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<v Speaker 1>actually I had to like.

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<v Speaker 2>Psych myself up to get to that place.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, where I'm like, yeah, where I had the thought,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I was like, is this too mean for

0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:37.160
<v Speaker 1>me to say?

0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, the question is how does it hit you afterwards?

0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.959
<v Speaker 2>Because I know, of course I have said mean things

0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.720
<v Speaker 2>in my lifetime and it all feels really good in

0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.840
<v Speaker 2>the moment. Right You're pissed, you really don't like this person.

0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.800
<v Speaker 2>You want to somehow bring them down. It works, you

0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.280
<v Speaker 2>say the exact mean thing at the right time. The

0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.360
<v Speaker 2>problem is, I feel like it always comes back. So,

0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.920
<v Speaker 2>for instance, as soon as you see that person's vulnerability,

0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.680
<v Speaker 2>you see that you've actually really upset someone, you see

0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.559
<v Speaker 2>the hurt in their eyes, then you're like, I am

0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.680
<v Speaker 2>such an asshole. I mean, it doesn't always happen that way,

0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.480
<v Speaker 2>but for me, you know, when I've actually hurt someone,

0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.679
<v Speaker 2>no matter how good it feels in the moment, it

0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.160
<v Speaker 2>really sucks when you realize what you've done. I don't

0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:22.480
<v Speaker 2>have that.

0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.400
<v Speaker 1>Experience on the show. I feel like when people have

0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.800
<v Speaker 1>said really mean things to me, or I have said

0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.920
<v Speaker 1>something really mean to somebody else, it just turns into

0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.720
<v Speaker 1>a back and forth, really mean girl kind of fight.

0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.680
<v Speaker 1>It never and the winner is the person who the

0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.079
<v Speaker 1>audience thinks. Scott in the better barbes, you know what

0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:42.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying. So you keep going and you keep trying

0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.120
<v Speaker 1>to dig deeper. It's a really, you know, Housewives is

0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:51.439
<v Speaker 1>a really. It's it's tough like that, Like the fights

0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:53.240
<v Speaker 1>get so out of hand sometimes.

0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they do have to keep going.

0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:56.360
<v Speaker 1>Lower and lower.

0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. And as you know, listen, I've was

0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.920
<v Speaker 2>a viewer way longer than you were, and there were

0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.319
<v Speaker 2>times where I didn't like a member of the cast

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.840
<v Speaker 2>as a viewer, right, and I really enjoyed seeing whoever

0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.080
<v Speaker 2>she was get put in our place. Right. There's like

0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.600
<v Speaker 2>a mean girl thing I think inside all of us.

0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:18.079
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's also part of why the show is so popular.

0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.400
<v Speaker 2>It's also a matter of seeing women who are you know,

0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.600
<v Speaker 2>who seem to be perfect on the surface, with perfect lives,

0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.360
<v Speaker 2>and that mean girl in us wants to see them

0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.520
<v Speaker 2>taking down a notch. And it's not something that I

0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.240
<v Speaker 2>am proud to admit, but I do think it's human.

0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:39.040
<v Speaker 2>I think all of us have it the whise I

0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:40.680
<v Speaker 2>personally think, and we're going to talk to someone who's

0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 2>way in the know, but I think it comes out

0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.280
<v Speaker 2>of insecurity. I'm jealousy.

0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't know about that. I don't know about that.

0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.040
<v Speaker 1>What have you ever done anything mean?

0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Onh I'm trying to think on the show. Yeah, I

0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.920
<v Speaker 2>don't think you have. Yes, I have, I have. I

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 2>mean the Mazzarella you ate that that was not me? Yeah, right,

0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.240
<v Speaker 2>I tore it abute that must well. No, but I mean,

0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.160
<v Speaker 2>like in confessionals, I've said some snarky things mean. I mean,

0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.320
<v Speaker 2>I never I haven't yet tried to ruin anyone's life.

0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 1>No, but I have said.

0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Snarky, nasty little things. I don't know, is there a

0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:10.600
<v Speaker 2>difference between snarky and mean?

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:23.440
<v Speaker 1>It can cross the line. I think, Yeah, what about

0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 1>growing up? Like, what's your experience of meaning?

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.720
<v Speaker 2>No? Yeah, well I was not a mean girl growing up,

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:31.960
<v Speaker 2>but I will tell you that like in junior high,

0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.600
<v Speaker 2>we're saying that's sometimes that's the hardest r Yeah, Alexis

0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.600
<v Speaker 2>is in junior high. You can't do it now. Yes,

0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.400
<v Speaker 2>I was called so my main name is gutterman, and

0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.320
<v Speaker 2>I was called literally throughout all three years of junior

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 2>high or whatever, gutterface. I answered to it, and people

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.320
<v Speaker 2>used to make no and like, I just remember hating

0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.840
<v Speaker 2>it so much. It was so mean, and kids in

0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.720
<v Speaker 2>groups because I had moved to Texas from Long Island,

0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and I was just an outsider and having people laugh

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.520
<v Speaker 2>at me and having no one to sit with at

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.880
<v Speaker 2>the lunch table and that kind of mean not just

0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.520
<v Speaker 2>not just the girls, even right, the boys too. So

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I've definitely been as a young person, I've had I've

0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:18.280
<v Speaker 2>experienced that whole mean girl, you know attitude from from classmates.

0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.480
<v Speaker 2>But it's interesting because so have my kids, so have yours.

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.360
<v Speaker 2>I think so have most kids. When it happens to

0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:30.200
<v Speaker 2>your kid, it's a different thing that I want with. Like,

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.640
<v Speaker 2>I remember, my kids are now obviously they're adults now,

0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 2>but I have I hold a grudge towards kids in

0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>my neighborhood that have been mean to my kids, and

0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.680
<v Speaker 2>it will I will never let it go. Really, Oh

0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.960
<v Speaker 2>my god. I mean I try. I don't. I'm not

0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.760
<v Speaker 2>driving by their house and you know, throwing rocks, but

0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.080
<v Speaker 2>I I see those kids that were mean to my kids,

0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and my kids don't even remember, right, and I have it.

0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:58.800
<v Speaker 2>It will it will torment me. I'll wake up at

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.560
<v Speaker 2>nights and times and think about something that some kid

0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.000
<v Speaker 2>did to my son that made him cry, and I

0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.080
<v Speaker 2>just get enraged.

0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I just I can see now in

0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:14.600
<v Speaker 1>my daughter's friend groups who the mean girls are, and

0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.960
<v Speaker 1>I just wonder, I wonder if they'll stay that way.

0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 1>Like she had a fight with one member of her

0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.560
<v Speaker 1>like massive friend group and that night it so about

0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 1>two weeks ago, that friend sent to everybody a group

0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.800
<v Speaker 1>text saying Alexis is out of the group. And everything

0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.640
<v Speaker 1>ended up working out and it was fine. But what

0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.880
<v Speaker 1>is that inclination to turn everyone against the one girl

0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.680
<v Speaker 1>that you don't like? It's And I wonder if the

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.760
<v Speaker 1>mean girls then if they grow up to be mean women,

0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.760
<v Speaker 1>because I do know mean women. There are plenty, and

0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.440
<v Speaker 1>they'll look right through you. They still want to be

0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.040
<v Speaker 1>the queen bees. Like that doesn't go away when you're

0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm almost fifty, you're in your fifties.

0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it does a lot. I hope I think that.

0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:03.760
<v Speaker 1>No, I think for a lot of people, it doesn't

0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.080
<v Speaker 1>go away. You're still looking to breathe the prom queen

0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:07.320
<v Speaker 1>when you're fifty years old.

0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Listen, I know that I'm such a different thankfully, thank

0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:14.159
<v Speaker 2>you to my doctor, my psychiatrist. But I'm a different

0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.119
<v Speaker 2>woman than I was, maybe not in terms of I

0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 2>was not really a mean girl. I'm not the insecure

0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 2>person I was. That has changed. I was probably a

0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.359
<v Speaker 2>lot more jealous of people when I was younger. That

0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 2>has changed. Hopefully people can actually change, some can't. You're right.

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.800
<v Speaker 2>But it's interesting because as a mom, one of the

0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>most important things that I wanted to install in my

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:44.800
<v Speaker 2>kids was kindness. I mean, that was huge. And I

0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.359
<v Speaker 2>guess the times that I've even had an inclination that

0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.439
<v Speaker 2>one of my kids was being mean, I jumped on

0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.480
<v Speaker 2>it hard. Do all moms maybe not? Maybe? Do you?

0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't want I never wanted. Nobody wants

0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.400
<v Speaker 2>who wants mean kids? But I was always very sensitive

0:17:58.400 --> 0:17:58.719
<v Speaker 2>to it.

0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I was very sensitive to it because

0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.320
<v Speaker 1>people were very, very mean. I could handle people being

0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.600
<v Speaker 1>mean to me, I couldn't handle them being mean to

0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.639
<v Speaker 1>my brother. So I have a handlecalf brother, and he

0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.560
<v Speaker 1>was held back a year. He's only a year older

0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:13.960
<v Speaker 1>than me, but he was held back a year. So

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.320
<v Speaker 1>when we moved and we started high school, we started together,

0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.560
<v Speaker 1>so everyone thought we were twins. And people at my

0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:21.560
<v Speaker 1>new school, I mean, they were horrific to me, but

0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.240
<v Speaker 1>they were so mean to my brother. Not everybody, but

0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.200
<v Speaker 1>what they did to me I could handle. I was

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 1>basically ignored. It was like I wasn't even there and

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.760
<v Speaker 1>I could handle it. But watching them go out of

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.720
<v Speaker 1>their way to embarrassing my brother.

0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I remember that chapter in your book.

0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Was yeah, I wrote about this because it was I mean,

0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:43.840
<v Speaker 1>there was one incident and I write about this in

0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 1>my book where a bunch of kids flushed his shoes

0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:48.520
<v Speaker 1>down the toilet and I can't even talk about it

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.280
<v Speaker 1>with that crying. And I that day, like I went,

0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.560
<v Speaker 1>I watched him walk around the school with socks on,

0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.240
<v Speaker 1>and I went into the bathroom and I just I

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.200
<v Speaker 1>was so broken and I just like bent down and cried,

0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.440
<v Speaker 1>and I just wondered, how you can be that person

0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.919
<v Speaker 1>who is mean to somebody who's handicapped, is just beyond it.

0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.320
<v Speaker 1>It's one thing to be snarky, but that's another level.

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.080
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's the type of person that I'm

0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:13.040
<v Speaker 1>talking about.

0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:17.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't know. I mean, again, thankfully we

0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.360
<v Speaker 2>have someone coming on who can help us understand it.

0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.080
<v Speaker 2>But I definitely I think to my do think to

0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:31.760
<v Speaker 2>myself sometimes in terms of housewives, it's we're rewarding meanness.

0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 2>And it's also again, I loved being a viewer for

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.439
<v Speaker 2>years and years and years. I mean during COVID it

0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.359
<v Speaker 2>got me through. I was like, it was just so

0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.880
<v Speaker 2>it is so much fun to watch. Snarky and shady

0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.760
<v Speaker 2>is hilarious and fun to watch. When it crosses a line,

0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.600
<v Speaker 2>which it oftentimes does and gets really dark, then it

0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:58.560
<v Speaker 2>becomes uncomfortable. But yeah, there's something about also when you're

0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 2>funny and you're narky and shady. But you know, I

0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:08.399
<v Speaker 2>wonder once you really hurt someone right and like change

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.959
<v Speaker 2>their lives somehow, that cannot be easy to live with.

0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:14.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I guess it depends who you are. I mean,

0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:16.800
<v Speaker 1>but that's getting back to the whole Monica of it.

0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, as a viewer of Salt Lake City, I

0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:21.399
<v Speaker 1>love Salt Lake City. I forget that I'm on a

0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.399
<v Speaker 1>show when I watched Salt Lake City too, so people,

0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, I consider the question like should Monica come back? Right,

0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.240
<v Speaker 1>And obviously at this point we all know that she's

0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.680
<v Speaker 1>not coming back. But I would love to see Monica

0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.840
<v Speaker 1>back because she was so entertaining and this whole story

0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.359
<v Speaker 1>is so ridiculous and entertaining. But at the same time,

0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm on one of these shows and I have to

0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.760
<v Speaker 1>think about, Like, would I want to be around somebody

0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.200
<v Speaker 1>who would draw something page like that?

0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:53.879
<v Speaker 2>No, sneaky, so sneaky, It's not even it wasn't sneaky

0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.000
<v Speaker 2>at the time. I mean, lots of people have troll pages,

0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.160
<v Speaker 2>troll accounts, whatever it's called. I just knowing it, even

0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.000
<v Speaker 2>if she had been upfront about it, knowing that one

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.680
<v Speaker 2>of my castmates had a one time run a page

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:14.840
<v Speaker 2>that got off on tearing apart you know, housewives and

0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 2>their lives and there maybe making fun. I think of

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.359
<v Speaker 2>their kids, and you know, I get the gen Shaw

0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:23.560
<v Speaker 2>of it, and I get I don't know exactly what

0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.640
<v Speaker 2>happened between Monica and Jen, but I get that there

0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:31.119
<v Speaker 2>was a revenge factor in there, and I followed the page.

0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.679
<v Speaker 2>But from what the women said, there was trolling of

0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.680
<v Speaker 2>them as well. It wasn't just a gen Shaw thing.

0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:38.240
<v Speaker 2>That would be a hard pill for me to swallow

0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 2>to then like work with someone and trust them.

0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So, I mean as a viewer, like you were saying,

0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 1>it's fun to watch these people be like villains, right,

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.760
<v Speaker 1>it was fun to watch what Monica did, But I

0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.520
<v Speaker 1>put myself in their shoes, and like, I know the

0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 1>women on that cast, and I love them.

0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:57.080
<v Speaker 2>I would.

0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:00.359
<v Speaker 2>By the way, lots and lots of people love Monica,

0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:02.520
<v Speaker 2>lots and lots for.

0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:04.520
<v Speaker 1>That reason, because you like to watch a villain because

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.040
<v Speaker 1>there it's interesting.

0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I know, and I know that, but they iice it up.

0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.120
<v Speaker 2>They also understand her. I mean, listen, we don't all

0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.639
<v Speaker 2>have to agree. Some people, you know, think that she

0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 2>was like Delta nasty hand by having to you know,

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.920
<v Speaker 2>buy I don't know, was she fired, did you quit?

0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Whatever it was, a lot of people don't think that

0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:29.400
<v Speaker 2>that's fair. So I don't know. I have a very

0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.400
<v Speaker 2>hard time working with someone that ran a troll account.

0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:34.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I agree, I understand why they all want

0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:36.439
<v Speaker 1>her off. And that's the problem with these shows. If

0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:38.119
<v Speaker 1>you have no friends left, and you have no allies,

0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:47.639
<v Speaker 1>you can't be part of the friend group, right, yeah,

0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.120
<v Speaker 1>or so, I haven't seen the remake of Mean Girls, right,

0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:53.600
<v Speaker 1>But you think of all these movies from like the

0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.000
<v Speaker 1>nineties and or the eighties or even two thousands, and

0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.639
<v Speaker 1>like when there was a mean Girl. She isn't like

0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:05.280
<v Speaker 1>the gross chick with no friends Rachel McAdams. She was

0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:09.840
<v Speaker 1>the beautiful right she was Rachel McAdams, or she was

0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:15.720
<v Speaker 1>the prom queen, and she's all that right. She was always.

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Beautiful, everybody wanted to be friends with everyone's wanted a girl,

0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:20.879
<v Speaker 2>and yet everybody wanted to be close to her.

0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:26.360
<v Speaker 1>So does that perpetuate the idea that being mean is

0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:31.040
<v Speaker 1>an attribute, it's something that only the most beautiful and

0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:34.280
<v Speaker 1>the most self confident women girls?

0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think a lot of being girls that are

0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.760
<v Speaker 2>not mean, women that are not necessarily beautiful. They're more

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:45.199
<v Speaker 2>sort of just miserable. But yes, I mean in high school,

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:50.120
<v Speaker 2>like in terms of being in cliques and who's cool

0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.879
<v Speaker 2>and who's not. Is it cool to be mean? I

0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:55.359
<v Speaker 2>really hope so once you know, we get older, it's not.

0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.359
<v Speaker 2>But does it? Is it? Yes? I mean I've also

0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:01.800
<v Speaker 2>I live Listen, I live in the burbs and in

0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:04.120
<v Speaker 2>a suburb where all the kids go to the same

0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:06.399
<v Speaker 2>school and all the moms are at kiss and drop

0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:08.399
<v Speaker 2>and we all go to back to school night and

0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:11.439
<v Speaker 2>we all are invited to the same parties, And yeah,

0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:15.040
<v Speaker 2>it definitely exists. There's drama, like we have not all

0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:19.639
<v Speaker 2>grown out of it. There's drama, there's pettybs. There is

0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:23.480
<v Speaker 2>mean girl behavior for sure, unfortunately.

0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:24.760
<v Speaker 1>And men don't do that. To each other. I mean

0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:26.800
<v Speaker 1>I know that like if Evan gets in a fight

0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:29.080
<v Speaker 1>with someone or like an argument, or he like loses

0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:34.360
<v Speaker 1>his taste for somebody, he'll distance. But men don't gossip

0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:36.760
<v Speaker 1>about each other. I never hear him on the phone gossiping.

0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, Jeff doesn't really get on the phone in bs

0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:41.400
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of men. I mean, he has male friends,

0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:43.480
<v Speaker 2>but they're not they're not chit chatting at eight thirty

0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:44.240
<v Speaker 2>in the morning, like.

0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:46.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, right, But even with that, like he doesn't

0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:50.320
<v Speaker 1>bad mouth people the way that women do.

0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:52.440
<v Speaker 2>You know what, can I just tell this quick story? Yeah,

0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:55.520
<v Speaker 2>So Jeff and I were engaged about to be married,

0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 2>and the rabbi who married us was actually a friend

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.320
<v Speaker 2>of mine, but he was interviewing us for all intents

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:03.119
<v Speaker 2>and purposes, just getting to know us and getting to

0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:05.560
<v Speaker 2>know Jeff a little bit better. And he asked me,

0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:08.000
<v Speaker 2>it's so funny, I haven't thought about this in so long,

0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:10.800
<v Speaker 2>but he asked me something that I really loved about

0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Jeff Wessler. And I said, you know what strikes me

0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:17.880
<v Speaker 2>is like sometimes like I'll say something nasty about somebody

0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:21.840
<v Speaker 2>or not just gossipy, but just mean, and he'll go

0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 2>that's not nice. Just those three words. He'll go, that's

0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:28.920
<v Speaker 2>not nice, and I'm thinking, well, the fuck cares about nice,

0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:33.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking to you. But I remember thinking, like, for

0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:35.400
<v Speaker 2>some reason, it used to And I remember saying that

0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:39.280
<v Speaker 2>to Barry, the rabbi who married us. And it was

0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:41.520
<v Speaker 2>a weird thing to pick out of the many things

0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:45.359
<v Speaker 2>that I loved about Jeff, But I just loved that

0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.240
<v Speaker 2>that was part of his character, you know, like he

0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:51.520
<v Speaker 2>wasn't going to enjoy hearing me be a mean girl.

0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:55.280
<v Speaker 2>Now having said that, Jeff watches now he's like obsessed

0:25:55.320 --> 0:26:00.240
<v Speaker 2>with everything housewives and he also man's not perfect and

0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:03.800
<v Speaker 2>he laughs along with the rest of us. But you know,

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I was always like, what do you mean nice? What

0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:08.199
<v Speaker 2>are you talking about? Like the person's not here, Why

0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:09.680
<v Speaker 2>don't have to be nice?

0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:14.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Evan, Evan just doesn't really engage. Like if I

0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:16.600
<v Speaker 1>try to talk to him about people, he'll be like,

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:19.479
<v Speaker 1>oh really, Like he doesn't give me anything back. He

0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:23.640
<v Speaker 1>doesn't really enjoy gossiping. He doesn't. He's not mean. He's

0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:25.880
<v Speaker 1>really really nice. He makes me feel mean.

0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:27.840
<v Speaker 3>But not.

0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:30.120
<v Speaker 2>Jeff is definitely not mean. I don't think he's ever

0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:33.280
<v Speaker 2>had a real confrontation with the guy really or no,

0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:35.400
<v Speaker 2>not a man and not a woman. Not really, he's

0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:38.159
<v Speaker 2>not He's really mean when he's behind the wheel, he

0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.240
<v Speaker 2>is a what are they called? Like he has road rage?

0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, Well I have a very bad road

0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:44.800
<v Speaker 1>rage story. I don't think we have time for it today,

0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:47.119
<v Speaker 1>but on another episode I'm going to tell you it is.

0:26:47.560 --> 0:26:49.960
<v Speaker 1>It was one of the scariest things that's ever happened

0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:54.840
<v Speaker 1>to me in my whole life. I'm convinced that I

0:26:54.880 --> 0:26:55.840
<v Speaker 1>could have died that night.

0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, listen, that's like, isn't it sort of

0:26:58.119 --> 0:27:01.399
<v Speaker 2>like internet trolling? Behind a wheel? They can't hear you.

0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, But Jeff.

0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Goes nuts, Like if you cut Jeff fessel Off, you're

0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:07.199
<v Speaker 2>not going to know you did, because Jeff isn't going

0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>to drive up and try to or try to hit

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:10.760
<v Speaker 2>the back of your car, but he is going to

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:12.160
<v Speaker 2>have words for you.

0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well he should watch out because PSA, there are

0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:17.600
<v Speaker 1>crazy people on the road who will actually kill you.

0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:19.440
<v Speaker 2>And there are crazy people on reality televisions.

0:27:19.480 --> 0:27:21.240
<v Speaker 1>There are actually a lot of crazy people. I want

0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:23.760
<v Speaker 1>to talk about that. Where's Melissa? I want to talk

0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:25.959
<v Speaker 1>about all the crazy people on reality television. So who

0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 1>do you think is the meanest Jeff in history?

0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:34.760
<v Speaker 2>In history? History, who is the meanest housewife in history?

0:27:34.800 --> 0:27:36.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there've been so I.

0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Think Ramona has said the mean stuff.

0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Ramona, it could be definitely could be mean.

0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:41.160
<v Speaker 1>But yeah.

0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 2>The thing is about also about Romona is she's also endearing.

0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:46.879
<v Speaker 2>Like there's something about her that's so kooky, Like you're.

0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Like, is she yeah, No, she's definitely cooky.

0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:49.320
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:53.199
<v Speaker 1>I think that there's I'm not sure that there's a

0:27:53.200 --> 0:27:56.000
<v Speaker 1>difference between mean and cold in my eyes, you know,

0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:59.600
<v Speaker 1>like if you're really cold and you shut people out

0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:02.440
<v Speaker 1>and you act better than I consider that mean.

0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:06.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's all different ways to be mean, it's true,

0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:08.760
<v Speaker 2>but Ramona will put her mean. The thing is, I

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:11.520
<v Speaker 2>mean I remember that walk across the bridge that she

0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:14.600
<v Speaker 2>did with Bethany. Oh yeah. The thing is you were

0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:19.040
<v Speaker 2>so it was so outrageous what she was saying. I

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.080
<v Speaker 2>remember in the moment, it was like whoa, whoa, whoa,

0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:22.879
<v Speaker 2>And I think Bethany started crying at one point, and

0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:24.640
<v Speaker 2>You're like, wow, what was she saying?

0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:25.320
<v Speaker 1>You remind us?

0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:29.280
<v Speaker 2>So think about that's why you'll never get married, or

0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:34.159
<v Speaker 2>that's oh yes, And I remember just years ago watching

0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:39.400
<v Speaker 2>it and thinking, wow, that is mean. But then I know,

0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:42.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, watching Romona throughout the years, I think she's

0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:45.040
<v Speaker 2>just I want to give her that. She's so kooky,

0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:47.640
<v Speaker 2>like she does like things. I will think something like that.

0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:50.719
<v Speaker 2>I just won't say it, I know, but wife, right,

0:28:51.000 --> 0:28:53.320
<v Speaker 2>I'll think mean things like that all the time. Anyway,

0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:54.600
<v Speaker 2>I think that our guest is here.

0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:58.959
<v Speaker 1>So guys, we have Melissa right. She is known on

0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Instagram as your bitch Therapist. She's amazing, so well spoken

0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:08.920
<v Speaker 1>and knows every little thing about housewives. So she's a therapist,

0:29:08.920 --> 0:29:14.200
<v Speaker 1>a brava holic. After many years and two degrees and

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:19.959
<v Speaker 1>clinical practice, she got her license and she has just

0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:23.360
<v Speaker 1>been working in this area for so long. She's a

0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:27.240
<v Speaker 1>cancer survivor and she had she.

0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Had a varying cancer when she's very young.

0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:35.840
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think she she is managing chronic Yeah, but

0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:40.200
<v Speaker 1>she is amazing. She used a self described psychology nerd,

0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:43.000
<v Speaker 1>and she thinks that therapy is magic and so do I.

0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:47.560
<v Speaker 1>And she is just so good at analyzing the housewives.

0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:48.360
<v Speaker 2>We need your help.

0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:54.520
<v Speaker 1>Melissa. Hi, Hi, Melissa, Hi, welcome. Hi.

0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:56.760
<v Speaker 3>We're so nice to see you.

0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Bo you two, thank you so much for joining us.

0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:00.560
<v Speaker 2>We need your help.

0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:03.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there is no other therapist that that can

0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:06.720
<v Speaker 1>analyze the housewives like you can, but also like women

0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:07.360
<v Speaker 1>in general.

0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:11.640
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and ladies, I am prepared with the capital P.

0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:15.160
<v Speaker 3>So I am ready.

0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 1>All right, Jen, go for it, baby.

0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Well you know, so, Melissa, we're talking, as you know,

0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:24.920
<v Speaker 2>about the meanness that unfortunately it does not just you know,

0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.360
<v Speaker 2>perpetuate itself in the house in the housewives world, but

0:30:29.000 --> 0:30:32.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, for young kids and even now we know

0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:37.080
<v Speaker 2>mean girls, and you know, we also have mean inside

0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:40.320
<v Speaker 2>of us. I know that I do. There are different

0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:42.880
<v Speaker 2>degrees of it, but maybe give us your take on

0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:45.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, what is driving a mean girl?

0:30:45.720 --> 0:30:48.320
<v Speaker 1>Like, what's driving at what age? Are you thinking?

0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Any any let's start.

0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Let's start with the housewives. Okay, why do you think

0:30:55.160 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 1>that meanness is rewarded on the housewives? And why would

0:30:58.840 --> 0:31:00.000
<v Speaker 1>a housewife want to be a villain?

0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:08.320
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so meanness is definitely rewarded. I think we've seen that.

0:31:08.920 --> 0:31:10.680
<v Speaker 3>Excuse me, I think we've seen that time and time

0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.840
<v Speaker 3>again on housewives. And I mean, look at what just

0:31:14.960 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 3>kind of happened with Monica and Salt Lake and that

0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:24.560
<v Speaker 3>whole thing. And so I think that sometimes, and I'm

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.360
<v Speaker 3>this might surprise you to hear this, but what makes

0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:32.080
<v Speaker 3>a mean girl when we're young versus when we're older.

0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:38.000
<v Speaker 3>It really isn't different. Yeah, it's the same stuff. It's

0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:41.840
<v Speaker 3>just if you're a mean girl when you're younger and

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:46.600
<v Speaker 3>you have certain qualities and characteristics, like for example, no

0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:50.160
<v Speaker 3>matter the age, the reasons are power and control. People

0:31:50.200 --> 0:31:54.720
<v Speaker 3>want power and control over the narrative, the friendship, the

0:31:54.720 --> 0:32:01.719
<v Speaker 3>social you know, relationship. Usually mean girls that have sincerely

0:32:01.760 --> 0:32:04.800
<v Speaker 3>a lack of self esteem, right, they kind of you know,

0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:08.520
<v Speaker 3>there's a bravado that people might put forth, but in

0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:12.680
<v Speaker 3>reality there's a real lack of self esteem and self confidence.

0:32:13.360 --> 0:32:15.800
<v Speaker 3>And the one thing I was doing a little bit

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:19.040
<v Speaker 3>of research, you know, preparing for this, and there's an

0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:22.000
<v Speaker 3>expert in the field of bullying. Her name is Rosalind Wiseman,

0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 3>and she actually her book Queen Bees and Wannabes was

0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:28.720
<v Speaker 3>the templan.

0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Girl Jerkie's Night. Yeah I know that.

0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:35.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it is so I think. And if you watch

0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:38.840
<v Speaker 3>Me and Girls and have read the book, it's wild

0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:45.000
<v Speaker 3>how mean Girls is really like an educational documentary on

0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:48.520
<v Speaker 3>what it is truly. I mean, it's a wonderful movie.

0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:50.600
<v Speaker 3>It's super funny, it's just really well done.

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:53.720
<v Speaker 2>So the mean girl gets hers in the end, which

0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:54.680
<v Speaker 2>is kind of the joy of it.

0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:59.760
<v Speaker 3>Right, always, always, because the thing with this is you

0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:06.240
<v Speaker 3>can can't outrun the toxic stuff within that leads to

0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:09.440
<v Speaker 3>that behavior unless you really want to get some help

0:33:09.480 --> 0:33:13.040
<v Speaker 3>around it. Right, people can change, but only if they

0:33:13.080 --> 0:33:16.240
<v Speaker 3>want to. And so back to your question, Jackie, if

0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:21.160
<v Speaker 3>the housewives are getting rewarded for being villains, why would

0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:21.880
<v Speaker 3>they change?

0:33:22.240 --> 0:33:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, Melissa, let me ask you this, Why do we

0:33:25.720 --> 0:33:29.080
<v Speaker 2>as a society and me personally like watching it? What

0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:32.320
<v Speaker 2>is it about us that enjoys watching the villains and

0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:36.200
<v Speaker 2>and you know, the Mean Girls?

0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:39.920
<v Speaker 3>I think two answers to that. One is that it

0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:43.040
<v Speaker 3>is entertaining, because, I mean, Mean Girls was one of

0:33:43.080 --> 0:33:46.640
<v Speaker 3>the most amazing movies to ever be made. It was

0:33:46.960 --> 0:33:50.959
<v Speaker 3>so entertaining, it was so funny. And I think that,

0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:53.120
<v Speaker 3>you know, there is just a part of our human

0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:56.200
<v Speaker 3>psyche that we love drama clearly I do.

0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.440
<v Speaker 1>Is that. Okay? Is that healthy for us?

0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:04.680
<v Speaker 3>Well? Okay, yes and no. So to answer your question, Jen,

0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:08.920
<v Speaker 3>is that to me in my clinical practice, all things

0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:12.760
<v Speaker 3>exist on a spectrum. Okay, so on a spectrum over

0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:16.080
<v Speaker 3>here is just kind of the general you know, some

0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:19.840
<v Speaker 3>slight behavior, so maybe nasty comments, things like that, and

0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:23.399
<v Speaker 3>then as you progress to the other side of the spectrum,

0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:29.640
<v Speaker 3>that's when the really kind of abusive, inappropriate stuff happens.

0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:32.600
<v Speaker 3>And as a therapist, one thing I always like to

0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.960
<v Speaker 3>say is that all of us have good and bad qualities.

0:34:36.000 --> 0:34:39.840
<v Speaker 3>We all do, and I think we all have a

0:34:39.840 --> 0:34:41.560
<v Speaker 3>little bit of that mean girl in it.

0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:44.879
<v Speaker 2>Yes, my psychiatrist is that all the time. And it's

0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:47.759
<v Speaker 2>like so helpful when I feel guilty for having said

0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:52.160
<v Speaker 2>something and it, you know, badly about maybe having hurt someone. Unfortunately,

0:34:52.239 --> 0:34:54.319
<v Speaker 2>it is part of being human, you.

0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 1>Know, Melissa what it is more for me, it is less,

0:34:56.719 --> 0:34:59.840
<v Speaker 1>it's less of this need to like, you know, you

0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:02.960
<v Speaker 1>take a Ramona right where there's no filter. We were

0:35:02.960 --> 0:35:04.600
<v Speaker 1>just talking about this, and like the things that come

0:35:04.640 --> 0:35:07.960
<v Speaker 1>out of her mouth sometimes are just so mean. For me,

0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:12.840
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't say stuff like that on a regular basis.

0:35:12.920 --> 0:35:15.600
<v Speaker 1>But if I don't like somebody or someone does something

0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:19.920
<v Speaker 1>to me, I get this feeling where I want revenge

0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:22.640
<v Speaker 1>and I want to destroy them and life, I think, right,

0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:25.799
<v Speaker 1>But I have to actively shut that off and put

0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:28.680
<v Speaker 1>it out of my mind because getting revenge is all

0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:32.040
<v Speaker 1>that I'll think about, you know. And I wonder do

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:35.680
<v Speaker 1>you think, like the proliferate like Housewives is so big?

0:35:35.760 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Now do you think that watching the behavior of Housewives

0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:43.239
<v Speaker 1>on the show, does that bleed out into real life?

0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Do people start to think that it's better to behave

0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:49.000
<v Speaker 1>like that? Or Okay, what do you think?

0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:54.920
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely? Because what happens is this brings into the discussion

0:35:55.360 --> 0:36:00.879
<v Speaker 3>parasocial relationships. So parasolctural relationships are relationships that folks think

0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:03.920
<v Speaker 3>they have with a celebrity or someone they admire and

0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:06.960
<v Speaker 3>see on TV, but they don't really have a relationship.

0:36:07.480 --> 0:36:11.200
<v Speaker 3>And so sometimes fans if they feel they have a

0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:13.960
<v Speaker 3>parasocial relationship, like for example, there are people who think

0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:17.719
<v Speaker 3>they have relationships with you two, and they don't you know,

0:36:17.840 --> 0:36:19.880
<v Speaker 3>they've seen you on TV, but they don't really know you.

0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:25.200
<v Speaker 3>So if someone respects you and honors you and admires

0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:28.600
<v Speaker 3>you and they see things happening on TV, if the

0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:32.800
<v Speaker 3>watcher doesn't have that sounded like creepy like the watcher,

0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:38.279
<v Speaker 3>If the person taking in that behavior, if they don't

0:36:38.280 --> 0:36:41.240
<v Speaker 3>have enough self esteem and self worth to say, Okay,

0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:44.120
<v Speaker 3>this is entertaining, but this isn't necessarily something I'd like

0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:48.400
<v Speaker 3>to emulate. Then yes, that emulation of behavior happens. But

0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:50.919
<v Speaker 3>one important thing I did want to note is that

0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:57.000
<v Speaker 3>I believe that our society, there's a social conditioning that

0:36:57.160 --> 0:37:01.560
<v Speaker 3>happens with women where we are conditioned to be nice

0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:06.239
<v Speaker 3>and to avoid conflict at all costs. And so what

0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:09.320
<v Speaker 3>happens is back to your point, Jackie, is that.

0:37:11.160 --> 0:37:11.319
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:16.560
<v Speaker 3>But but people pleasers who have emotions like oh my gosh,

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:20.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm so angry, I'm not able to show this, so

0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:25.000
<v Speaker 3>that emotion has to go somewhere. And so that's where

0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:27.359
<v Speaker 3>some in the thoughts of revenge and things like that.

0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:30.319
<v Speaker 3>It's all normal. It's normal. I mean that happens to

0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:35.160
<v Speaker 3>me too. It's just do you have the ability, like

0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:38.399
<v Speaker 3>you said, Jackie, to stop yourself and say, okay, it's

0:37:38.400 --> 0:37:41.680
<v Speaker 3>okay to have this fantasy of revenge. It's okay to

0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:45.680
<v Speaker 3>have that, but knowing that my behavior needs to align

0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:48.719
<v Speaker 3>with my ultimate morals, values, and ethics.

0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:50.759
<v Speaker 1>I love that. Let me let me ask you a

0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:54.719
<v Speaker 1>million dollar question. I get a lot of people comments.

0:37:54.760 --> 0:38:00.479
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I read the comments sometimes and you get why

0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:03.640
<v Speaker 1>can't we just watch women being friends and having a

0:38:03.680 --> 0:38:08.239
<v Speaker 1>good time. Would anybody watch that show? Wod people watch

0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:09.799
<v Speaker 1>that show? I don't think so.

0:38:11.239 --> 0:38:15.759
<v Speaker 3>Well, Okay, here's my thought because sometimes I am one

0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:18.879
<v Speaker 3>of those people, because sometimes for me, I'm a very

0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:22.520
<v Speaker 3>sensitive soul, and when I watch like the whole stuff

0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:25.759
<v Speaker 3>that happened with Salt Lake recently, it actually just makes

0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:29.680
<v Speaker 3>me feel iggy. But I do love housewives, so I

0:38:29.800 --> 0:38:32.760
<v Speaker 3>feel that, you know, I'm going to use Real Housewives

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:36.840
<v Speaker 3>of Orange County season one. Okay, they didn't have glam.

0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:41.880
<v Speaker 3>They wore the craziest outfits. They went to tennis and

0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:46.319
<v Speaker 3>lunch and it did really well. Now, all things need

0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:51.200
<v Speaker 3>to evolve, right, I think anything, people shows, what have you,

0:38:51.360 --> 0:38:55.000
<v Speaker 3>everything has an evolution. Nothing can stay the same. But

0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:59.080
<v Speaker 3>I almost think that there's been an over correction in

0:38:59.120 --> 0:39:03.000
<v Speaker 3>some franchise, not all. There are some franchises franchises I

0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:06.080
<v Speaker 3>think that do it well and then others that you

0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:12.120
<v Speaker 3>can almost tell that people are nervous about. In my opinion, well,

0:39:12.160 --> 0:39:15.080
<v Speaker 3>if I don't bring the heat, yeah, we're gonna get canceled.

0:39:15.600 --> 0:39:17.799
<v Speaker 3>If I don't bring the heat, am I going to

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:22.040
<v Speaker 3>not be asked? Back right. Yes, So I do think

0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:27.520
<v Speaker 3>that there has become a toxic level to what we

0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:31.480
<v Speaker 3>all think we need, and some of that, I'm going

0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:35.799
<v Speaker 3>to be honest, is perpetuated by Bravo. I do believe that. Well,

0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:36.600
<v Speaker 3>I do believe that.

0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:39.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think about even the Anne Marie of

0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:44.399
<v Speaker 2>it all and first time housewife, and I totally get

0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:47.040
<v Speaker 2>that pressure she felt to go in there and you know,

0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:51.360
<v Speaker 2>have some have some conflict, but she got so slammed.

0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:54.920
<v Speaker 2>People have said a lot worse on housewives. You know,

0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I wonder is there a difference between being shady and

0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:06.560
<v Speaker 2>being mean? I mean talking about Sutton's esophagus didn't ruin

0:40:06.719 --> 0:40:11.600
<v Speaker 2>Sutton's life. It was certainly shady and she certainly paid

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:16.759
<v Speaker 2>for it. But and I would understand her, you know,

0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:19.080
<v Speaker 2>going in feeling like I have to bring some of

0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:22.160
<v Speaker 2>this to the table. But why there was such a

0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:25.440
<v Speaker 2>reaction to that? People? Do you know housewives can cut

0:40:25.560 --> 0:40:31.560
<v Speaker 2>way deeper than that, And in my mind, I like shady.

0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:36.200
<v Speaker 2>I laugh at shady, right, It's people can be very funny,

0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:39.680
<v Speaker 2>very shady, but when it gets that dark, it's hard

0:40:39.680 --> 0:40:42.319
<v Speaker 2>to watch. But why people have the reaction to her

0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:45.600
<v Speaker 2>when I just thought listen, maybe it wasn't nice, but

0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:48.319
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't so deep. I didn't think, you know, she

0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:51.319
<v Speaker 2>became a villain pretty quickly she did.

0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:53.480
<v Speaker 3>And I will I'm going to explain that because I'm

0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:56.040
<v Speaker 3>one of the people who really had a reaction.

0:40:55.760 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 2>To her, really because maybe because of my.

0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:03.920
<v Speaker 3>Right. So for me, I'll just share briefly, I'm a

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:06.400
<v Speaker 3>two time cancer survivor and I'm going through a chronic

0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:08.440
<v Speaker 3>cancer now that there's no cure, and I've been on

0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:11.520
<v Speaker 3>treatment forever and it's just exhausting, but I'm doing okay.

0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:14.200
<v Speaker 3>And so for me, and I think a lot of

0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:17.719
<v Speaker 3>other folks who have had medical issues, whether it be

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:21.719
<v Speaker 3>mental health, physical health, you know, eating disorders, what have you,

0:41:23.360 --> 0:41:28.560
<v Speaker 3>we have been exposed to folks like her that talk

0:41:28.719 --> 0:41:33.919
<v Speaker 3>to us like we're idiots or like we like I

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:38.600
<v Speaker 3>personally don't like when a medical professional tries to talk

0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:42.359
<v Speaker 3>about my body like they know it better than I. Right,

0:41:42.800 --> 0:41:45.719
<v Speaker 3>So for me, what I always say is a medical professional,

0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:51.200
<v Speaker 3>your degree is a piece of paper, but your morals, values, ethics,

0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:54.680
<v Speaker 3>and you know, true education are shown in your behavior.

0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 3>And I think for me, what bothered me about it

0:41:59.160 --> 0:42:01.200
<v Speaker 3>and many other peace people because a lot of people.

0:42:01.239 --> 0:42:02.640
<v Speaker 3>I get a lot of dms and a lot of

0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:06.440
<v Speaker 3>comments on my Instagram. They felt the same way. They

0:42:06.480 --> 0:42:11.560
<v Speaker 3>felt shamed, they felt judged. And I think she tapped

0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:15.799
<v Speaker 3>into you know a lot of people like me with

0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:18.200
<v Speaker 3>invisible illness, like I look great.

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:20.160
<v Speaker 2>I know that, Yeah you do.

0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:24.480
<v Speaker 3>And you know so sometimes when you have invisible illness,

0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.120
<v Speaker 3>you're used to people really mistreating you and judging you.

0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:29.879
<v Speaker 3>And I think she just represented that. Well.

0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even think of that angle. I get that.

0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:36.959
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that completely makes sense. I would have been different.

0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:39.120
<v Speaker 2>I would have certainly had a different reaction if I'd

0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:40.720
<v Speaker 2>been through what you've been through.

0:42:48.600 --> 0:42:51.800
<v Speaker 1>Can I jump back to your over correction comment, because

0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:55.879
<v Speaker 1>that really struck me. So the House I started out

0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.760
<v Speaker 1>as a really like a show about friends, right, maybe

0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:01.880
<v Speaker 1>with some like minor dis agreements, and it has over corrected.

0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:05.759
<v Speaker 1>You are right, And now where do we go from here?

0:43:05.880 --> 0:43:07.799
<v Speaker 1>What happens from here? Is it just going to can

0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:12.640
<v Speaker 1>continue to get meaner and snarkier or is it like,

0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:17.560
<v Speaker 1>are we just expecting more and more drama? What's going

0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:19.239
<v Speaker 1>to happen with these shows? What do you think?

0:43:20.520 --> 0:43:23.200
<v Speaker 3>That is such a good question, and I've posed that

0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:28.279
<v Speaker 3>question myself on my Instagram is that I believe Housewives

0:43:28.280 --> 0:43:33.040
<v Speaker 3>has become such a tox successful that it is becoming

0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:39.600
<v Speaker 3>it's like, how do we move ask this if this

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:44.000
<v Speaker 3>is like the level of entertainment or the level of

0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:47.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, villain era that we feel is entertainment, where

0:43:47.400 --> 0:43:50.720
<v Speaker 3>does this go? And so Jackie, it's such a good question,

0:43:51.320 --> 0:43:55.040
<v Speaker 3>and to me, my answer is that I believe it's unsustainable.

0:43:55.800 --> 0:43:58.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what's going to happen. I kind of

0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:04.799
<v Speaker 3>like my intuition it's something's common and I know, so.

0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:06.080
<v Speaker 1>What then why do we?

0:44:06.719 --> 0:44:09.840
<v Speaker 2>I still don't miss not I don't watch every franchise,

0:44:09.880 --> 0:44:13.120
<v Speaker 2>but I don't miss an episode like if it's gotten

0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:17.759
<v Speaker 2>to that place where it is so dark and I

0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:21.759
<v Speaker 2>still here, I am, you know, telling the truth. I

0:44:21.840 --> 0:44:24.400
<v Speaker 2>love it, you know, I don't always love every moment

0:44:24.440 --> 0:44:26.359
<v Speaker 2>of it. I have moments where I feel, you know,

0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:29.320
<v Speaker 2>sick for one of the women who is the brunt

0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:35.320
<v Speaker 2>of you know, the meanness. But I still am addicted.

0:44:36.040 --> 0:44:36.680
<v Speaker 2>What is that about?

0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:39.319
<v Speaker 3>J One of the things I love about you is

0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:41.920
<v Speaker 3>you're just like so honest and upfront and Jackie, you

0:44:42.000 --> 0:44:44.319
<v Speaker 3>two you're just both so honest and real and I

0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:48.239
<v Speaker 3>think what I love is just being honest about what

0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:52.080
<v Speaker 3>you're saying, because that's that's a fact. I mean, and listen,

0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:54.719
<v Speaker 3>I watch every episode too, right, I.

0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:57.239
<v Speaker 2>Mean, does that mean that we're mean girls as well

0:44:57.440 --> 0:44:59.040
<v Speaker 2>if we're enjoying mean girl behavior?

0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:03.760
<v Speaker 3>No, I think for well, for me, it's it's content

0:45:04.480 --> 0:45:10.680
<v Speaker 3>if I'm being honest, right, there's for me, the grosser

0:45:10.840 --> 0:45:15.520
<v Speaker 3>things get, the more clinical interpretation I have. So for me,

0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:18.719
<v Speaker 3>it's a gold mine. I'm going to be honest in

0:45:18.840 --> 0:45:21.800
<v Speaker 3>terms of the work that I'm doing, but in terms

0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:24.000
<v Speaker 3>of just the general public, I'm going to liken it

0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:28.719
<v Speaker 3>to almost like a soap opera, right we you know

0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:31.080
<v Speaker 3>people love soap operas, and it's kind of like a

0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:33.840
<v Speaker 3>real life soap opera. But what's great about it is

0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:37.640
<v Speaker 3>we feel, again because of these parasocial relationships, like we

0:45:37.760 --> 0:45:42.360
<v Speaker 3>know the people, so what happens is I think we watch,

0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:45.719
<v Speaker 3>but then there's that's where these teams come in, like

0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:48.680
<v Speaker 3>team so and so, Team so and so, because we

0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:52.040
<v Speaker 3>feel A we have a relationship with them, B we

0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:56.239
<v Speaker 3>feel the injustice of what's happening and then see it.

0:45:56.360 --> 0:46:02.000
<v Speaker 3>So it's like it's almost creates the faux sense of interaction.

0:46:02.960 --> 0:46:05.000
<v Speaker 3>But it isn't is it? That's that's fun.

0:46:05.280 --> 0:46:08.319
<v Speaker 2>Like Jackie was saying that when she gets hurt, her

0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.759
<v Speaker 2>instinct is, like all of us, she wants revenge. So

0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:17.359
<v Speaker 2>watching that, you know, feeling what one of the cast

0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:19.560
<v Speaker 2>members feel in terms of being hurt and wanting revenge

0:46:19.560 --> 0:46:23.200
<v Speaker 2>for that person, and then seeing that person get revenge,

0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:24.680
<v Speaker 2>I guess can be cathartic.

0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:30.759
<v Speaker 3>Sure, because let's take the scandal all situation. Right, everyone

0:46:31.000 --> 0:46:35.000
<v Speaker 3>has been an areaana everyone well most a lot of

0:46:35.040 --> 0:46:37.799
<v Speaker 3>people have been cheated on or mistreated, and so when

0:46:37.800 --> 0:46:42.319
<v Speaker 3>we see this person who was us gets such vindication,

0:46:43.040 --> 0:46:48.520
<v Speaker 3>it's like it fulfills something in us that never got that.

0:46:49.800 --> 0:46:53.520
<v Speaker 3>It can serve as validation, right, it can serve as

0:46:54.000 --> 0:46:56.319
<v Speaker 3>oh wow, I was wrong like this too, and look

0:46:56.320 --> 0:46:59.640
<v Speaker 3>at all the attentions she's getting, and so it validates.

0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:03.799
<v Speaker 3>So I think that to answer that question is that

0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:06.319
<v Speaker 3>sometimes it gives us a lot of validation. And that's

0:47:06.440 --> 0:47:11.920
<v Speaker 3>not necessarily bad human beings. We're human, we have you know,

0:47:12.080 --> 0:47:16.040
<v Speaker 3>humanity is tough, and we all have sore spots and

0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:20.359
<v Speaker 3>growing edges and trigger points. And so I think what

0:47:20.440 --> 0:47:24.920
<v Speaker 3>Housewives ultimately does is it works on hitting those buttons,

0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:28.080
<v Speaker 3>and then the viewer gets emotionally kind of sucked in,

0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:30.920
<v Speaker 3>and then it becomes something that you just don't want

0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:35.600
<v Speaker 3>to stop watching, even though it has felt so toxic, right.

0:47:35.400 --> 0:47:39.880
<v Speaker 1>But even beyond that, like you have this portion of

0:47:39.880 --> 0:47:42.680
<v Speaker 1>people saying, like, I just want to see you guys

0:47:42.719 --> 0:47:45.440
<v Speaker 1>be friends and have some fun and have like times.

0:47:45.680 --> 0:47:49.560
<v Speaker 1>But like the other day, Jen and I went to

0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:52.000
<v Speaker 1>the Madonna concert and we went with.

0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:53.640
<v Speaker 2>Which is really by the way, I don't know what

0:47:53.680 --> 0:47:57.719
<v Speaker 2>people amazing people are saying, she is right on her game.

0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Yes we went with Sisa and Jen aaden okay, And

0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:05.200
<v Speaker 1>when when there is a picture of me and Theresa

0:48:05.560 --> 0:48:12.560
<v Speaker 1>together on social media, the hateful comments are insane. I

0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:18.239
<v Speaker 1>cannot believe how invested people are in us going to

0:48:18.560 --> 0:48:22.080
<v Speaker 1>a place together. And I just wonder it's not just

0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:26.680
<v Speaker 1>the shows, it's off season. Also, it's all the time

0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:30.360
<v Speaker 1>people don't really want to see. I wonder do people

0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:33.520
<v Speaker 1>really want to see friendships? Aren't these shows about like

0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:37.160
<v Speaker 1>finding your way back to friendship after confrontation. Isn't that

0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:39.640
<v Speaker 1>what they should be? And if so, why is there

0:48:39.680 --> 0:48:41.799
<v Speaker 1>so much hate for people making up?

0:48:43.440 --> 0:48:46.600
<v Speaker 3>Okay? So I think there's two answers to that. I

0:48:46.640 --> 0:48:51.320
<v Speaker 3>think that a lot of Bravo fans are very petulant

0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:54.279
<v Speaker 3>in that they think that they want something and then

0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:57.960
<v Speaker 3>when they're given that, they're not happy. So I just

0:48:58.040 --> 0:49:01.560
<v Speaker 3>think sometimes it's human nature to say or to think

0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:04.080
<v Speaker 3>that we want something and then when we're given that,

0:49:04.160 --> 0:49:08.680
<v Speaker 3>we don't care for it. Number One, humans can be fickle,

0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:13.719
<v Speaker 3>let's be honest, and especially Bravo. And number two, I

0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:18.120
<v Speaker 3>think Jackie the situation with you and Teresa my understanding

0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:21.719
<v Speaker 3>because I've seen those hateful comments too, which are you know,

0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:24.760
<v Speaker 3>that's a whole other thing. People who just like say

0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:28.600
<v Speaker 3>these awful things on the internet. It's it's wild. It's

0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:30.759
<v Speaker 3>my least favorite part about what I'm doing because it's

0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:36.200
<v Speaker 3>just so gross. I think that people with you both

0:49:36.440 --> 0:49:38.480
<v Speaker 3>and listen, we're gonna see this, and I have no

0:49:38.560 --> 0:49:44.520
<v Speaker 3>inside information. I think people think it's inauthentic and therefore

0:49:45.080 --> 0:49:48.239
<v Speaker 3>their you know, frustrate or there are people I think

0:49:48.280 --> 0:49:51.400
<v Speaker 3>that feel that Teresa did you grave harm, you know,

0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:54.959
<v Speaker 3>by bringing up certain rumors, and so they think, well,

0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:58.120
<v Speaker 3>how can Jackie be friends with her? And so But

0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:01.760
<v Speaker 3>here's the thing about real life is in real life

0:50:02.360 --> 0:50:05.359
<v Speaker 3>we are supposed to have conflict. Conflict is a part

0:50:05.360 --> 0:50:09.040
<v Speaker 3>of relationships, and unfortunately our society and our parents, we

0:50:09.080 --> 0:50:12.120
<v Speaker 3>don't really get taught how to manage that. So it

0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:16.279
<v Speaker 3>is possible to have this really challenging relationship with someone

0:50:16.280 --> 0:50:19.560
<v Speaker 3>and then grow and move forward authentically. I think in

0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:22.319
<v Speaker 3>your case, the problem is the audience hasn't seen that

0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:27.600
<v Speaker 3>authentic base because it happened in between seasons, right, so,

0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:31.479
<v Speaker 3>and people have a lot of imagination, and everybody thinks

0:50:31.480 --> 0:50:33.880
<v Speaker 3>that they're a therapist, trust me because they try to

0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:39.360
<v Speaker 3>tell me about things. And I think people are assuming.

0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:42.719
<v Speaker 3>It's a lot of assumptions of well, this is tactical

0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.480
<v Speaker 3>or this isn't authentic, But it's because it happened in

0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:48.360
<v Speaker 3>between seasons and we didn't get to see that natural

0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:49.399
<v Speaker 3>authentic Bill.

0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Does that make sense, Melissa, Well, don't you think is?

0:50:52.480 --> 0:50:54.560
<v Speaker 2>You know? In life? And I think maybe even on

0:50:54.560 --> 0:50:59.360
<v Speaker 2>the show. But I've been accused of not being authentic

0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:05.080
<v Speaker 2>because I don't maybe engage. Well, who knows what's going

0:51:05.120 --> 0:51:07.759
<v Speaker 2>to happen this coming season. You know, you'll watch and

0:51:07.800 --> 0:51:12.040
<v Speaker 2>you'll tell me what you think. But I feel like

0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:17.239
<v Speaker 2>my in therapy I have kind of learned that even

0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:19.440
<v Speaker 2>the people that we can't stand or have so much

0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:24.880
<v Speaker 2>resentment against, there's always a humanity there. I mean, I

0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:27.520
<v Speaker 2>can't say that terrorists have humanity and I want to

0:51:27.520 --> 0:51:32.400
<v Speaker 2>go there, But like, when you see the humanity in someone,

0:51:32.920 --> 0:51:38.440
<v Speaker 2>all of that other anger and nastiness, it fades, right,

0:51:38.600 --> 0:51:43.200
<v Speaker 2>And I think that it's so interesting that, you know,

0:51:43.280 --> 0:51:46.080
<v Speaker 2>on the show, people can hate each other's guts and

0:51:46.120 --> 0:51:48.879
<v Speaker 2>then love each other. And I feel like, because once

0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:52.279
<v Speaker 2>you actually get through all of the anger and you

0:51:52.320 --> 0:51:56.759
<v Speaker 2>can see somebody's for lack of a better word, humanity,

0:51:57.400 --> 0:52:00.359
<v Speaker 2>all of that other stuff just sort of dissipates. So Jack,

0:52:00.360 --> 0:52:02.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you would have to speak to that more than.

0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would really agree with that. So if you

0:52:04.040 --> 0:52:06.760
<v Speaker 1>take the Monica of it all, right, like she clearly

0:52:06.840 --> 0:52:11.200
<v Speaker 1>you can see how horrible her life has been. I mean,

0:52:11.280 --> 0:52:13.960
<v Speaker 1>she was abandoned as a child, she has a tumultuous

0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:19.120
<v Speaker 1>relationship with her mother, she's a single mom, and it

0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:20.160
<v Speaker 1>still doesn't make me.

0:52:20.640 --> 0:52:23.359
<v Speaker 2>But that's not what I mean seeing the humanity. I mean,

0:52:23.480 --> 0:52:26.040
<v Speaker 2>like if you, let's say one of these women were

0:52:26.080 --> 0:52:28.279
<v Speaker 2>to sit down and have lunch with Monica and she

0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:31.440
<v Speaker 2>was to say this has been you know, such a

0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:34.719
<v Speaker 2>shit show, and I feel so sick, and it's so

0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:39.640
<v Speaker 2>hard to have had this reaction. And you know, let's

0:52:39.640 --> 0:52:45.040
<v Speaker 2>say she really became vulnerable. Once she was vulnerable and open,

0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:49.160
<v Speaker 2>I think that things would change in terms of how

0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:51.160
<v Speaker 2>you were to feel about her. I think that was

0:52:51.160 --> 0:52:54.960
<v Speaker 2>also a complaint at the reunion, right, she wasn't vulnerable.

0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:57.600
<v Speaker 2>But oftentimes, and I don't know what happened with you

0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:01.240
<v Speaker 2>and Teresa's between you and Teresa, but I think in general,

0:53:01.440 --> 0:53:04.680
<v Speaker 2>you can have all of this animosity towards someone and

0:53:04.719 --> 0:53:08.040
<v Speaker 2>then as soon as someone sort of shows their humanity

0:53:08.120 --> 0:53:12.360
<v Speaker 2>or their vulnerability, that can dissipate. Yeah.

0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:15.440
<v Speaker 3>Jen, that is so smart and such a stude observation

0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:19.160
<v Speaker 3>because one of the things, like I kind of wrote

0:53:20.719 --> 0:53:25.279
<v Speaker 3>it because one of you both are one of the

0:53:25.400 --> 0:53:29.560
<v Speaker 3>things in how to handle of course, that's why I

0:53:29.600 --> 0:53:33.280
<v Speaker 3>love Checkie. She's so smart. The one of the ways

0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:36.279
<v Speaker 3>to handle the mean girl, one of them is to

0:53:36.400 --> 0:53:40.600
<v Speaker 3>look at the humanity. And so, you know, JACKI you

0:53:40.600 --> 0:53:43.160
<v Speaker 3>brought up an interesting point. Sometimes we can do that

0:53:43.200 --> 0:53:46.759
<v Speaker 3>and sometimes we can't. So when we see someone that

0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:50.160
<v Speaker 3>triggers us, if they if there's something about them that

0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:53.600
<v Speaker 3>triggers something within us. We may not be able to

0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:56.480
<v Speaker 3>see that humanity, Like I have a harder time seeing

0:53:56.520 --> 0:54:00.880
<v Speaker 3>the humanity for Anna Marie, but I my whole Instagram.

0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:04.279
<v Speaker 3>I have been kind of a champion for Monica in

0:54:04.600 --> 0:54:08.640
<v Speaker 3>explaining why she is the way she is, and so

0:54:08.800 --> 0:54:13.279
<v Speaker 3>as a therapist, I can see through the humanity to

0:54:13.440 --> 0:54:19.720
<v Speaker 3>the humanity of some pretty egregious behaviors. But it's okay

0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:22.719
<v Speaker 3>if we can't always do that. But yes, that is

0:54:22.800 --> 0:54:27.760
<v Speaker 3>the answer to kind of getting to the truth of

0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:32.000
<v Speaker 3>what's happening with this person. Because people are more than

0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:36.080
<v Speaker 3>their behaviors. The behaviors come from somewhere, and if we

0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:38.080
<v Speaker 3>understand that, it helps our empathy.

0:54:38.160 --> 0:54:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's like on reunions when you see, you know,

0:54:41.000 --> 0:54:43.359
<v Speaker 2>somebody who has been so mean, but you see them

0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:45.880
<v Speaker 2>break down, You'll see another member of the cast go

0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:47.600
<v Speaker 2>over and hug them. Can I just hug you? You

0:54:47.640 --> 0:54:50.680
<v Speaker 2>see a lot of that, right, Like human instinct is

0:54:50.719 --> 0:54:54.359
<v Speaker 2>to get up and comfort a person, So you must

0:54:54.600 --> 0:54:57.280
<v Speaker 2>your career and what you do must be so interesting

0:54:57.360 --> 0:55:04.040
<v Speaker 2>to see both, right, to see the struggle between that

0:55:04.400 --> 0:55:08.160
<v Speaker 2>those mean instincts and those loving human instincts.

0:55:08.480 --> 0:55:11.480
<v Speaker 3>I've had people come to therapy who literally yelled at me,

0:55:12.160 --> 0:55:15.560
<v Speaker 3>treated me so terribly, and I ended up developing by

0:55:15.600 --> 0:55:19.600
<v Speaker 3>the end of it, a wonderful, beautiful relationship with them,

0:55:19.960 --> 0:55:23.920
<v Speaker 3>Because sometimes the behaviors come from a place of heart,

0:55:24.040 --> 0:55:27.040
<v Speaker 3>and so if you're willing to see past that and

0:55:27.480 --> 0:55:30.319
<v Speaker 3>you know, just be with someone, you know, that can

0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:30.920
<v Speaker 3>change a lot.

0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:34.799
<v Speaker 1>I was going to ask you if you think like

0:55:35.000 --> 0:55:38.480
<v Speaker 1>taking it out of Housewives and going back to movies

0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:43.760
<v Speaker 1>where always the mean girl is popular, Well, I shouldn't

0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:48.839
<v Speaker 1>say that there's always a popular, beautiful girl who's mean.

0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:52.000
<v Speaker 1>The mean girl is never going to be the one

0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:54.560
<v Speaker 1>sitting in the corner being ignored at school. She's always

0:55:54.600 --> 0:55:56.640
<v Speaker 1>going to be the queen bee. She's going to be

0:55:56.680 --> 0:55:58.960
<v Speaker 1>the prom queen, the one that everyone wants to be

0:55:59.040 --> 0:56:01.320
<v Speaker 1>friends with. And yeah, she'll get in some drama and

0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:03.960
<v Speaker 1>at the end, someone else will be more popular than her. Right,

0:56:04.000 --> 0:56:07.560
<v Speaker 1>that's the way these movies go. But does do the

0:56:07.600 --> 0:56:11.160
<v Speaker 1>way they portray mean girls as being popular and beautiful

0:56:11.239 --> 0:56:15.839
<v Speaker 1>do you think that affects people like our daughters. Like

0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:19.280
<v Speaker 1>our daughters are both in school, hers is in college,

0:56:19.280 --> 0:56:21.440
<v Speaker 1>mine's in middle school. But like the middle school crowd

0:56:21.520 --> 0:56:24.279
<v Speaker 1>is tough. Does that go out to them?

0:56:25.280 --> 0:56:26.800
<v Speaker 3>Brutal? Middle school is brutal?

0:56:26.880 --> 0:56:30.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is. Why why is it so bad? My god?

0:56:30.920 --> 0:56:31.880
<v Speaker 1>It blows me away?

0:56:32.920 --> 0:56:38.520
<v Speaker 3>Here's why? Because how do I answer this? Briefly, we

0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:43.080
<v Speaker 3>as a society, as parents, I know you two are

0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:45.520
<v Speaker 3>doing a great job of this. A lot of parents

0:56:45.640 --> 0:56:50.600
<v Speaker 3>don't teach their kids how to manage emotions number one,

0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:56.040
<v Speaker 3>how to handle conflict, and how to communicate effectively. Okay,

0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:59.960
<v Speaker 3>kids learn how to communicate from their home. They learn

0:57:00.160 --> 0:57:05.280
<v Speaker 3>it through not what they're told, they learn it through modeling. Okay,

0:57:05.719 --> 0:57:09.640
<v Speaker 3>So to me, this behavior, there's usually something going on

0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:15.719
<v Speaker 3>at home. Sometimes sometimes there is not, but there are

0:57:15.760 --> 0:57:19.280
<v Speaker 3>definitely Like there's six signs of mean girl, and one

0:57:19.320 --> 0:57:23.320
<v Speaker 3>of them is definitely appearance focused because I think again,

0:57:23.400 --> 0:57:26.840
<v Speaker 3>in our society, there is this image of you know,

0:57:27.080 --> 0:57:29.520
<v Speaker 3>to be a queen bee, you have to be the best,

0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:35.280
<v Speaker 3>the best looking, the best dressed, the most popular. You know,

0:57:35.360 --> 0:57:40.480
<v Speaker 3>there's all of these kind of difficulties. But ultimately, mean

0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:44.520
<v Speaker 3>girls have trouble with friendships because of their behavior. But

0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:48.000
<v Speaker 3>in middle school, we lack the ability to have self awareness.

0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:52.160
<v Speaker 3>Like cognitively, our brains are not fully developed until age

0:57:52.200 --> 0:57:54.720
<v Speaker 3>twenty five and the last part of the brain to

0:57:54.760 --> 0:58:00.680
<v Speaker 3>develop is the prefrontal cortexes that control impulses. So kids

0:58:00.720 --> 0:58:05.760
<v Speaker 3>aren't doing it's developmentally appropriate. What's what's happening in terms

0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:08.520
<v Speaker 3>of their hormones and their emotions in all of this,

0:58:09.720 --> 0:58:13.160
<v Speaker 3>Those types of kids don't have the folks around them

0:58:13.160 --> 0:58:16.320
<v Speaker 3>that they need to say, Hey, I noticed this behavior,

0:58:16.440 --> 0:58:20.280
<v Speaker 3>what's happening. Let's look at this together, you know. Does

0:58:20.320 --> 0:58:20.920
<v Speaker 3>that make sense?

0:58:21.000 --> 0:58:24.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Is that though an excuse in terms of when

0:58:25.120 --> 0:58:31.200
<v Speaker 2>we become women, we were never taught to control our impulses,

0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:35.880
<v Speaker 2>to curb our mean girl impulses? Is that an excuse?

0:58:36.000 --> 0:58:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Or is it time when you reach a certain age too,

0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:43.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, to stop being so damn right?

0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:45.720
<v Speaker 1>Because like if you look on like we were talking about

0:58:45.720 --> 0:58:48.880
<v Speaker 1>the Facebook groups that were like Facebook mom groups, like

0:58:49.200 --> 0:58:52.400
<v Speaker 1>they jump all over each other. They're so mean to

0:58:52.440 --> 0:58:54.440
<v Speaker 1>each other in a way that men are not.

0:58:55.640 --> 0:58:58.840
<v Speaker 3>Mm hmm. Here there's so there's two different types of

0:58:58.840 --> 0:59:01.720
<v Speaker 3>mean girls. Okay, there's the types of mean girls that

0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:05.360
<v Speaker 3>were mean girls when they were younger. They grew up,

0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:08.840
<v Speaker 3>they developed some self awareness and they said, oh boy,

0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:11.880
<v Speaker 3>this is not good. Let me change my behavior and

0:59:11.920 --> 0:59:13.920
<v Speaker 3>there definitely are a lot of people like that. You know,

0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:16.080
<v Speaker 3>you hear stories on the internet of people who go

0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:18.479
<v Speaker 3>back to their high people they bullied in high school

0:59:18.480 --> 0:59:19.840
<v Speaker 3>and they apologize.

0:59:19.240 --> 0:59:19.960
<v Speaker 2>And things like that.

0:59:21.280 --> 0:59:24.040
<v Speaker 3>And then there are those women who don't grow out

0:59:24.080 --> 0:59:28.600
<v Speaker 3>of it. They don't learn, they don't grow. And what

0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:32.000
<v Speaker 3>I like to say is as we grow we all

0:59:32.160 --> 0:59:35.520
<v Speaker 3>have issues, okay, and as we grow, if we don't

0:59:35.560 --> 0:59:38.320
<v Speaker 3>deal with them, we either get better or we get bitter.

0:59:39.200 --> 0:59:39.840
<v Speaker 1>That is it.

0:59:40.320 --> 0:59:42.560
<v Speaker 3>And so the adult mean girls, by the way, those

0:59:42.560 --> 0:59:44.240
<v Speaker 3>Facebook groups are atrocious.

0:59:44.280 --> 0:59:45.440
<v Speaker 1>They really are.

0:59:45.880 --> 0:59:52.280
<v Speaker 3>They're so awful. These are women who are fundamentally and

0:59:52.600 --> 0:59:58.520
<v Speaker 3>by the way, research shows that these women have low

0:59:58.600 --> 1:00:03.480
<v Speaker 3>levels of empathy and long term unhappiness and possibly that

1:00:03.480 --> 1:00:04.840
<v Speaker 3>could even lead to depression.

1:00:04.960 --> 1:00:07.080
<v Speaker 2>That's what I was about to ask you, Melissa. I'm

1:00:07.080 --> 1:00:09.400
<v Speaker 2>sorry to interrupt, but that's what I want to know.

1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:14.600
<v Speaker 2>Are there consequences, internal consequences to being a mean girl.

1:00:15.200 --> 1:00:18.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes, but the problem is they're all internal and we

1:00:19.040 --> 1:00:23.040
<v Speaker 3>don't often see it until something like the damn break,

1:00:23.160 --> 1:00:28.080
<v Speaker 3>so to speak, until something really egregious happens. They this

1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:32.200
<v Speaker 3>is what people have to understand. Miserable people feel miserable

1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:36.880
<v Speaker 3>like our behaviors show how we feel about ourselves, okay,

1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:39.480
<v Speaker 3>and like I've gone through a lot of stuff. I'm

1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:42.720
<v Speaker 3>the kindest person you'll ever meet. I'll never treat someone

1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:45.720
<v Speaker 3>with less than kindness. That's just my morals and values.

1:00:46.120 --> 1:00:50.240
<v Speaker 3>But so these folks, there is karma, it's internal. They're miserable,

1:00:50.280 --> 1:00:53.160
<v Speaker 3>they're unhappy, and Jackie, this might interest you is that

1:00:54.120 --> 1:00:59.960
<v Speaker 3>there are research studies that show and associate perfectionistic tendency

1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:04.000
<v Speaker 3>that often get kind of morphed into eating disorders with

1:01:04.080 --> 1:01:08.680
<v Speaker 3>these women because it's very image based and they're miserable,

1:01:08.800 --> 1:01:11.200
<v Speaker 3>non happy, and they're trying to control things, and we

1:01:11.280 --> 1:01:14.280
<v Speaker 3>all know a lot of that is what you know,

1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:18.720
<v Speaker 3>can create an eating disorder. So these women, I would

1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:22.000
<v Speaker 3>argue that a significant amount of them have, you know,

1:01:22.440 --> 1:01:26.720
<v Speaker 3>may have I have to be mindful here, some depression,

1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:31.680
<v Speaker 3>some anxiety, some you know, disordered eating behavior, low self

1:01:31.760 --> 1:01:35.680
<v Speaker 3>esteem and confidence. So when you look at some of

1:01:35.720 --> 1:01:39.080
<v Speaker 3>these things that people write and you feel icky, that's

1:01:39.160 --> 1:01:41.080
<v Speaker 3>how they feel all the time.

1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Which, by the way, clearly I have mean girl in

1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:48.440
<v Speaker 2>me because that makes me happy. Like mean girls are miserable,

1:01:48.680 --> 1:01:50.520
<v Speaker 2>not miserable, but mean girls.

1:01:50.680 --> 1:01:52.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's coming from a place of heart that

1:01:52.480 --> 1:01:53.560
<v Speaker 1>makes no man.

1:01:53.800 --> 1:01:55.600
<v Speaker 2>No, it makes me happy in a mean girl way,

1:01:55.920 --> 1:01:59.600
<v Speaker 2>like if you're mean, you're miserable. Good you should be miserable,

1:01:59.600 --> 1:01:59.920
<v Speaker 2>you're mean.

1:02:00.400 --> 1:02:02.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. Some some people I just feel like

1:02:02.920 --> 1:02:05.640
<v Speaker 1>they're just bursting with self confidence and they feel like

1:02:05.720 --> 1:02:09.320
<v Speaker 1>no matter how mean they are, they'll be loved. I

1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:09.680
<v Speaker 1>don't know.

1:02:10.120 --> 1:02:14.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, I believe that people who we feel are bursting

1:02:14.960 --> 1:02:18.160
<v Speaker 3>with self confidence. It's it actually comes from a very

1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:21.919
<v Speaker 3>insecure place. But listen, are there some people like that?

1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:24.720
<v Speaker 3>For sure? Yes, you are correct, but you know, Jen,

1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:27.240
<v Speaker 3>I don't want you to be hard on yourself because

1:02:27.600 --> 1:02:28.200
<v Speaker 3>you're human.

1:02:28.520 --> 1:02:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1:02:28.920 --> 1:02:31.680
<v Speaker 3>And so when we see someone, because I'm going to

1:02:31.760 --> 1:02:36.200
<v Speaker 3>be honest, if I see someone who's mistreating other people

1:02:36.400 --> 1:02:38.840
<v Speaker 3>and then they get theirs, there's of course a part

1:02:38.840 --> 1:02:40.280
<v Speaker 3>of me that's a little satisfied.

1:02:40.520 --> 1:02:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Welcome to housewives. I think that is one of the

1:02:42.920 --> 1:02:46.120
<v Speaker 2>biggest I can't stand someone for whatever reason, not always

1:02:46.160 --> 1:02:49.720
<v Speaker 2>because they're mean, maybe because for me they're beautiful and

1:02:49.760 --> 1:02:52.680
<v Speaker 2>they seem perfect, and they seem full of themselves or

1:02:53.080 --> 1:02:56.160
<v Speaker 2>and so I like to see them brought down a notch, right,

1:02:56.600 --> 1:03:00.480
<v Speaker 2>which is my own young girl stuff. But you like

1:03:00.520 --> 1:03:02.480
<v Speaker 2>to see the mean girl, just like in the movies,

1:03:03.200 --> 1:03:05.000
<v Speaker 2>get knocked down, and Housewise will do that to you.

1:03:05.080 --> 1:03:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. What worries me is that it just seems as

1:03:08.800 --> 1:03:13.080
<v Speaker 1>an outsider watching other shows that it it's just this,

1:03:13.080 --> 1:03:15.760
<v Speaker 1>this desire to watch people you mean to each other

1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:19.120
<v Speaker 1>just gets stronger and stronger every year, and I wonder

1:03:19.200 --> 1:03:19.920
<v Speaker 1>where it's going.

1:03:20.280 --> 1:03:21.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't really think, you know, the producers when I

1:03:22.000 --> 1:03:27.120
<v Speaker 2>joined Jersey, they told me to watch Miami because they

1:03:27.160 --> 1:03:33.240
<v Speaker 2>said Miami is shady. Right, it's not again, They're not

1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:38.880
<v Speaker 2>out to ruin each other. They are shady and it's funny,

1:03:39.200 --> 1:03:42.919
<v Speaker 2>but it's not quite so dark. And so I don't

1:03:42.960 --> 1:03:46.360
<v Speaker 2>know who knows, you know what what the executives all want.

1:03:46.440 --> 1:03:48.720
<v Speaker 2>But what I was told was that they don't want

1:03:48.720 --> 1:03:51.960
<v Speaker 2>it so dark. I think maybe we just need to

1:03:52.000 --> 1:03:55.000
<v Speaker 2>move to Miami. Maybe maybe to Miami, it'll be sunny,

1:03:55.040 --> 1:03:55.960
<v Speaker 2>it won't be just kidding.

1:03:56.000 --> 1:03:58.320
<v Speaker 1>I love Jerseys, but you know, I am curious to

1:03:58.320 --> 1:04:01.280
<v Speaker 1>see where where everything goes. It's but Melissa, you are

1:04:02.240 --> 1:04:04.960
<v Speaker 1>just the most brilliant, the most brilliant, and I'm so

1:04:05.040 --> 1:04:07.240
<v Speaker 1>grateful that you were here today to explain all of

1:04:07.240 --> 1:04:07.800
<v Speaker 1>this to us.

1:04:07.960 --> 1:04:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I know, can you come sleep over at my house?

1:04:09.840 --> 1:04:12.360
<v Speaker 2>I know, just want I want you to hold me.

1:04:12.680 --> 1:04:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I just want you like an intercom, like a buzz

1:04:16.200 --> 1:04:16.560
<v Speaker 2>thank you.

1:04:16.880 --> 1:04:17.720
<v Speaker 3>I love you both.

1:04:18.400 --> 1:04:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, I love her.

1:04:20.560 --> 1:04:24.040
<v Speaker 1>I could talk to her all day and she's She's

1:04:24.200 --> 1:04:26.840
<v Speaker 1>so in tune to like everything she says.

1:04:26.840 --> 1:04:30.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, yeah, you're right, yeah, yeah, and non judgmental.

1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:31.680
<v Speaker 1>No, right, she's great.

1:04:31.760 --> 1:04:33.640
<v Speaker 2>She's not a mean girl. She can't be a housewife.

1:04:33.920 --> 1:04:37.880
<v Speaker 1>No, she would not like this, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1:04:38.480 --> 1:04:40.240
<v Speaker 1>but no, she really is.

1:04:40.440 --> 1:04:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Really that's so insightful and like I don't know, personally

1:04:43.960 --> 1:04:49.120
<v Speaker 2>like helpful, right, And again I don't think, like she said,

1:04:49.120 --> 1:04:53.040
<v Speaker 2>there's a spectrum and I have mean girl instincts. It's

1:04:53.040 --> 1:04:56.400
<v Speaker 2>like nice to know that we all do, right, yeah,

1:04:56.520 --> 1:04:57.720
<v Speaker 2>and sort of how to take it. And it was

1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:00.720
<v Speaker 2>really helpful for me also to hear that, you know,

1:05:01.280 --> 1:05:04.520
<v Speaker 2>mean girls, they are repercussions for it, and not not

1:05:05.040 --> 1:05:06.600
<v Speaker 2>only externally but internally.

1:05:07.240 --> 1:05:10.040
<v Speaker 1>And you're right of hurt people, hurt people.

1:05:09.920 --> 1:05:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Hurt people, hurt people, right, Yeah, anyway, this is a

1:05:14.880 --> 1:05:16.200
<v Speaker 2>good one. This was good.

1:05:16.240 --> 1:05:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Gut her face, you guys, this was a fun episode.

1:05:25.200 --> 1:05:25.919
<v Speaker 1>I loved it.

1:05:26.200 --> 1:05:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I loved it too.

1:05:27.440 --> 1:05:30.680
<v Speaker 1>All right, So we are going to sign off, but

1:05:31.840 --> 1:05:35.320
<v Speaker 1>listen and review. Leave us five stars and we love

1:05:35.360 --> 1:05:35.880
<v Speaker 1>you guys.

1:05:36.080 --> 1:05:38.720
<v Speaker 2>We do in any comments the dms, they are really helpful,

1:05:38.760 --> 1:05:41.320
<v Speaker 2>you guys. Try to keep them nice. Yeah, keep it nice.

1:05:41.360 --> 1:05:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Don't be a mean girl.

1:05:42.280 --> 1:05:43.919
<v Speaker 2>Don't be a mean girl. Talk to you soon.