1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: It took more than two decades for this police officer 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: who committed a cold blooded off duity murder crime of 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: passion to be arrested, and even after the arrest was made, 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: the family sought answers about why it took so long 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: and made accusations of a cover up, and those questions 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,639 Speaker 2: were covered up by the police department. 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,639 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories. We want to 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: tell you those stories with details that have never been published. 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices 18 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: that writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive 19 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: into the stories behind the stories. Journalist Matthew McGoff has 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: worked for years on his true crime book The Lazarus Files. 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: It's a very twisty case about an LAPD police officer 22 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: who got away with murder for more than twenty years. 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: It turns out that McGoff had actually interviewed Detective Stephanie 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: Lazarus for a story about art theft. And then something 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: odd happened at mcgoff's other job as a writer for 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,279 Speaker 1: the TV show Law and Order. 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 2: I went into work at Law and Order and people 28 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: were throwing around ideas for the new season of episodes, 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: and someone mentioned that coming into work that morning, they'd 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: heard on the radio that LAPD officer had been arrested 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: for a call case murder. And my boss kind of 32 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: dismissed the ideas, you know, we've done that on the 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: show before. And then he said, but it was a 34 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: female police officer, and again it was like, yeah, we 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: did that in season thirteen or fourteen or whatever. And 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: then he said she worked in art theft. And that's 37 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: when I kind of almost fell off my chair. And 38 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: I was trying to place the name of this woman 39 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: that I had sat down with here earlier, because I 40 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: remembered she had a very distinctive name. And then it 41 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: came to me and I said, was it Stephanie Lazarus? 42 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: And my colleague who'd heard the report on public radio, 43 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, that's her name. And then they were like, 44 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: your friend got arrested for murder. And I was like, no, no, 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: she's not my friend. She's a police detective. And I 46 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: interviewed her a year ago. I really wanted to know 47 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: what the true story was, starting with did this police officer, 48 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: who was very cordial, actually commit this murder that she 49 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: was accused of. It was a brutal crime of passion, 50 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: cold blooded killing, not on duty kind of thing. 51 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: Let's start from the beginning. So this is nineteen eighty six, 52 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: southern California, right, and let's start from the beginning of 53 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: who the victim is. 54 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: Sherry Rasmussen. Who's the victim in this case? Very extraordinary 55 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: young woman. She was in her twenties. I think she 56 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: may have been twenty nine when she was murdered. She 57 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:25,399 Speaker 2: was a hospital nurse, but really precocious and incredibly successful 58 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: for her age. She was the director of critical care 59 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 2: nursing at Glendell Adventist Hospital here in Los Angeles, and 60 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: the position and responsibility she had would have typically been 61 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: handled by someone who was many, many years older than her, 62 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: and it was sort of a trend throughout Cherry's life. 63 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: She skipped two grades in school. She began college when 64 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: she was sixteen years old. She had her master's degree 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: in nursing from UCLA when she was just barely in 66 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: her twenties. She was very vivacious, attractive woman, sort of 67 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: had it all in terms of professionally, just kind of 68 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: tall and lanky, kind of like a Princess Diana type look, 69 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: but very very high achieving, very selfless, very dedicated to 70 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: her career and transforming nursing. She lectured internationally at various conferences. Really, 71 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 2: one of the tragedies of what happened is we'll never 72 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 2: know how much more she may have accomplished over the 73 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: course of the rest of her life. But even in 74 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: her twenty nine years, she made a tremendous impact. And 75 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: the biggest thing that had happened in her life prior 76 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: to her murder was that she had just gotten married 77 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: three months before she was killed. She married a guy 78 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: named John Rudden, and they had just embarked on their 79 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: life together. 80 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: Tell me about that day. February twenty fourth, nineteen eighty. 81 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: Six, February twenty four, nineteen eighty six, was the date 82 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: that Sherry was killed, and it was a weekday. She 83 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 2: was supposed to work, but decided not to go into 84 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 2: work that morning, called and sick, so she wasn't really 85 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: expecting to be at home that day. She should have 86 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: been in the office and just made a decision when 87 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: she woke up that she wasn't going to go into work, 88 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: so her husband John left her in bed when he 89 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: went to work shortly after seven am that morning, and 90 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: when John returned home at six pm, the first thing 91 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 2: he noticed was that the garage door to their condo 92 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 2: was open and Sherry's car was missing. And their condo 93 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: was part of a complex in Van nuys All. The 94 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: condos had the same architectural layout. It was like a 95 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: split level where the garage was on the ground level 96 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: and then above that is the living room, and then 97 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: above that is a level that has the dining room 98 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: in the kitchen, and then the bedrooms are on the top. 99 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: It's sort of a vertically oriented townhouse style. So when 100 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: he pulled into the garage, it was open, and he 101 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 2: noticed that there was broken glass that was on the 102 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: pavement in front of the garage, and he wasn't sure 103 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: what was wrong. When he went up the stairs from 104 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: the garage into the living room, he saw that the 105 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 2: door between the living room and the garage was open, 106 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 2: and when he went inside, he discovered Sherry's body on 107 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: the floor of the living room. There had been a 108 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: very significant struggle. 109 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 3: She had a lot of. 110 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: Injuries, bruises, and she had also been shot three times 111 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: in the chest. 112 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: So beaten to death and shot both. 113 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, the crime scene and the evidence extended from the 114 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: second floor of the condo, so the kitchen area down 115 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: into the first floor, and there was quite a bit 116 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: of blood evidence that was around, and Sherry was lying 117 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: on her back in the living. 118 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: Room aside from the car. Is there anything else that's missing? 119 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 2: Eventually it's determined that their marriage. 120 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 3: License was missing. 121 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: Wow, okay, but not very much else. There was a purse. 122 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: Sherry's purse was taken, but it was recovered later that day. 123 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: And there was some stereo equipment that had been removed 124 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: from an entertainment center nineteen eighty six. So it's kind 125 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: of like big bulky flat screen TVs and things like 126 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 2: that big piece of furniture that holds TV and a 127 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: video disc player and a cassette recorder or whatever high 128 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: fi audio would have been in nineteen eighty six, some 129 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: of those items had been yanked out of the entertainment 130 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: center and stacked by the front door of the condo, 131 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: left there. I think John was devastated to find his 132 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: wife and managed to call nine to one one and 133 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: the police showed up, and they were the ones who 134 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: initiated the investigation, And it does seem that beginning that night, 135 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: their first impression of what happened was that it was 136 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: a botched robbery, and the police theory from the very 137 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: beginning that they queued to for the next twenty some 138 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: years was that Sherry had interrupted a burglary. Again, this 139 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: happened during the day, on a weekday when most people 140 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: would be expected to be at work, so the police 141 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: theory of the crime was that a burglar or more 142 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: than one burglar, had entered the condo believing no one 143 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: was spare. Cherry had surprised them or confronted them, and 144 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 2: there was an altercation and it escalated and ultimately she 145 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: was killed. At first glance, it looked like a bosch robbery, 146 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: but nothing of value really except for the car was 147 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: taken from the condo, So that doesn't really mesh with 148 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: a burglary or robbery motive because there was jewelry and 149 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: other items that were left undisturbed that had value. Also, 150 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: most burglars, if confronted, would want to get away, like 151 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: their first impulse would be to flee. 152 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: Right, not to fight, not a confrontation, or. 153 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 3: To commit a murder. 154 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: And also the severity of the injury she suffered, the 155 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: intensity of the hand to hand, She was really fighting 156 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: for her life for a long time, like thirty minutes 157 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: or more, based on how much ground would thin the 158 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: condo was covered, and the blood that was in different 159 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: places around the condo, And so the intensity of the 160 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: fight suggests pretty strongly a personal motive as opposed to 161 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: a stranger a burglar. They're looking for low hanging fruit 162 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 2: in terms of what place is going to be easy 163 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: to burgarize. Take some property, fence the property, move on 164 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: to the next place. 165 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: So let me ask you a series of questions that 166 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: can result in short answers from you. What kind of gun? 167 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: Okay? 168 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: So let's talk about the gun. So Sherry was shot 169 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 2: three times. There were a couple of slugs that were 170 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: recovered from the crime scene and from those bullets and 171 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 2: ballistic testing, they were able to determine that Cherry was 172 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: shot with a thirty eight caliber gun. This was a 173 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: two inch thirty eight caliber revolver, which was a very 174 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 2: very common backup weapon that LAPD officers we'd use. We 175 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: know that there were shots that were fired both upstairs 176 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: in the second floor of the condo because the glass 177 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: that I mentioned that was on the ground when John 178 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 2: Rudden came home, that was actually glass from a balcony door. 179 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 2: There was a little overhang, a small, little balcony big 180 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 2: enough for a barbecue grill, okay, that was off the 181 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: kitchen directly over the garage door, and that's where the 182 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: confrontation began. And at least one shot was fired and 183 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: it went through the glass window and shattered glass fell 184 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: down on the pavement in front of the garage door. 185 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: All right, So let's get some background real quick, because 186 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: we've talked about Sherry and John and they got married. 187 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: What is John's overall demeanor and situation in life before 188 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: all of this happens. 189 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: John's a handsome, tall guy, but did not have a 190 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 2: ton of girlfriends. He grew up in San Diego, and 191 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: he attended UCLA. And while he was attending UCLA, he 192 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: became friends more than friends with a woman named Stephanie 193 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: Lazarus who was a year behind him at UCLA, and 194 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: they sort of had an ambiguous relationship, and among their 195 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 2: friends at UCLA, it was sort of widely known that 196 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:19,359 Speaker 2: Stephanie pined for John, really really wanted to be his girlfriend, 197 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 2: and John did not. They were friends, close friends, met 198 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: each other's families, spent a lot a lot of time together, 199 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: but he did not want to be Stephanie's boyfriend, although 200 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: they did hook up. 201 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: And have sex and mixed signals. 202 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, their relationship was very ambiguous and kind of unequal 203 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: in terms of ardor Stephanie really wanted to be with 204 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: John and felt like he was the one she was 205 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: not dating anyone else or apparently interested in anyone else. 206 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: And they would be together and then they would take 207 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: time off, but they would always sort of drift back 208 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 2: together again. That was the pattern of John and Stephanie's 209 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: relationship from college and in the years after college. 210 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: How many years are we talking about between when they 211 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: met at UCLA and the time when he is married. 212 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: Let's start there. 213 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, several years and I think the dynamic was such 214 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 2: that they would drift back together, and then I think 215 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: John would maybe feel some remorse or it would be 216 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: too intense, and then they would have some time apart. 217 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 2: But they were friends also, and so again they would 218 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 2: sort of drift back together. And I think John maybe 219 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: dated a couple of other women in those other periods, 220 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: but there's no indication that Stephanie did. She was very 221 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: much set on John as being the one who she 222 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 2: wanted to be with, and she would confide to some 223 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: friends about difficulties in the relationship with John that he 224 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: didn't feel as strongly for her as she did for him. 225 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: And then he meets Sherry. 226 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: He falls head over heels in love with Sherry, and. 227 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: This happens quickly, right, doesn't this happen pretty swiftly? 228 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think from the time that John met Sherry 229 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: until the time that they're engaged is maybe about one year, Okay, 230 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: But yeah, John's feelings for Sherry are sort of what 231 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 2: Stephanie had wanted for herself. He's just head over heels 232 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: in love with her. They met sometime in I think 233 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, and they're immediately a couple. 234 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: So in this time period this one year from meeting 235 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: until proposal and marriage and all of that. Is he 236 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: in contact with Stephanie as anything more than just friends 237 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: at this point. 238 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, this information is a bit fragmentary because it 239 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: comes from a couple of different sources. One it's John. 240 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 2: The story that he tells in all of these interviews 241 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: is not consistent. It evolves over time. In his earliest interviews, 242 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: there's no relationship with Stephanie. Twenty some years later, he 243 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: admits having sex with Stephanie during his engagement with Sherry, 244 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 2: and even after Sherry's murder he had. 245 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 3: Sex with Stephanie. 246 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: So it's hard to pin down exactly during the time 247 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: that John and Cherry were falling in love and becoming 248 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: a couple. We know that Stephanie learned of John's engagement 249 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: to Sherry and called him very upset and asked to 250 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: see him, and John did go to see Stephanie and 251 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: they ended up having sex that night. And then we 252 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: also know that subsequent to that, Stephanie went to Sherry's workplace, 253 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: the hospital where she worked, and told her that she 254 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: had had sex with John recently and said that something 255 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: along the lines of when this marriage ends I'm going 256 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: to be there to pick up the pieces. 257 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: Did she tell people? Did she tell her parents or 258 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: her friends about this encounter? 259 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: Sherry was very private, and part of what was so 260 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 2: difficult for her that she loved John and she wanted 261 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 2: her relationship with John to endure, and she was in 262 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: a marriage, and she wanted to be married to John, 263 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: and so even as these things are happening, there's a 264 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: degree to which she's protecting her husband. So she told 265 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: her parents, and she told friends that Stephanie came to 266 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: the hospital and threatened her, but she stopped short of 267 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: telling them that her fiancee, who she intended to marry, 268 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: had cheated on her during the engagement. She did not 269 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: divulge that to her parents, which is understandable to a degree, 270 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: because it wasn't like she called the marriage off. John 271 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: never told Sherry that he had had sex with Stephanie. 272 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: Stephanie went to the hospital and told Sherry that, and 273 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: then she came home that night very upset and said, John, 274 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: is this true? And he said, yes, it is true, 275 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: and I'm so sorry, and please don't call this off. 276 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: And I in over my head and I didn't know 277 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: what else to do, and it was the last time, 278 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: and I won't have contact with her anymore, and Sherry 279 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 2: forgave him, so from that perspective, she was ready to 280 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: move on. But she was confiding in her parents and 281 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: several friends more than one, that there was this woman 282 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: who was a LAPD officer. There were times that Sherry 283 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: felt like she was being followed, so clearly it's stalking behavior, 284 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: but there wasn't really a name for it. So there 285 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: were a lot of incidents in the month leading up 286 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: to the murder that were very concerning to Sherry, and 287 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: throughout that time, John was giving Sherry reassurance it's over, 288 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: I'm not going to talk to her anymore. It seemed 289 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: like Sherry wanted John to be more definitive in terms 290 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: of telling Stephanie, you're not welcome at our house, don't 291 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: come to our house anymore. I'm not going to be 292 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: with you. I've moved, don't bother my wife, don't go 293 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 2: to my wife's workplace. Like there's various ways to put 294 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 2: your foot down and just say, hey, it's. 295 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 3: Over between us, back off. 296 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, let me live my life and you live your 297 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: life and stop doing what you're doing. John, for whatever 298 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: reasons within himself and his personality. Again, Sherry's father didn't 299 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: love John, didn't respect him so much. He felt like 300 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 2: John sort of had a weak personality. Yeah, not standing 301 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: up for himself or not definitive wishy washy or narcissistic. 302 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: I mean this is very narcissistic behavior. You can take 303 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: it that way too. He wants the attention, he's got 304 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: this beautiful woman. He's got a beautiful wife and a 305 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: beautiful woman planning for him. 306 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 2: Again, I think what Sherry was wanted and was asking 307 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: for from him was a definitive, clear break, and John's 308 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: attitude was I'm not going to contact her. It would 309 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 2: only make things worse for me to confront her. So 310 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: that never happened. And then again things continued. So John 311 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: knew a lot about this history, and Sherry's family and 312 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: friends knew a lot about this history. And then the 313 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: murder happens three months after they're married. 314 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: So we're back at February twenty fourth, nineteen eighty six, 315 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: in the house, and it looks on the surface to 316 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: be a botch robbery. But anybody who's really going to 317 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: take a closer look and start talking to people in 318 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: her family and in her immediate circle is going to 319 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: find out that she's being stalked and that her husband 320 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: has had an onagonof again relationship with a woman who 321 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: seems really unstable because she has been confronting her former 322 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: lover's wife. So at this point, enter the detective who 323 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: I think is at the center of your story. Tell 324 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: me a little bit about this man who walks in 325 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: and surveys the scene and comes up with a botch 326 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: robbery and essentially shuts down all other motives or other suspects. 327 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: So Cherry was killed in the Van Ny Sectional, Los Angeles, 328 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: which is in the San Fernando Valley, so it's within 329 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: the jurisdiction of the LAPD and more specifically the Van 330 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: Nu's Division of the LAPD, so there's a small homicide unit. 331 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: It's not a particularly high crime area of LA compared 332 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 2: to many other areas of. 333 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 3: The city in the eighties. 334 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: And the case is assigned to a detective whose name 335 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: is Lyle Mayer, who's a veteran detective, had been an 336 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,959 Speaker 2: LAPD officer since going back to the mid to late 337 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties and had had many years of experience working homicide. 338 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: And he shows up at the crime scene and walks 339 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: the crime scene and then interviews John, the victim's husband, 340 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 2: And that interview was tape recorded, and I obtained a 341 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: copy of the tape recording, so I know what was 342 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 2: said that night. And at the end of the interview, 343 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: Mayor asked John point blank, was there an ex girlfriend, 344 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: ex boyfriend, anything like that? And John says no. He 345 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: answers no that night. So subsequent to asking questions just 346 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: basic background about what was your job, what was her job, 347 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: how long were you married, he basically tells John, here's 348 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: what I think happened. Basically gives a voice to this 349 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: burglary theory. So that's also how we know that it 350 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 2: was that quick that night that they settled on this theory. 351 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: Do you think that if John had said, yes, I've 352 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: been having on again off against sex with a woman. 353 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: She's an LAPD detective, that this would have changed Detective 354 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: Mayor's mind about the botched robbery at all. 355 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: Well, to answer that question, we have to talk about 356 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 2: what happens the next day. 357 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: Okay, So botch robbery is what he says. 358 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 2: Again, there's a lot of blame to go around for 359 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: how this went the way that it did, and some 360 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: of it lies at John Rudden's feet, no doubt, because 361 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 2: he had an opportunity. He knew a lot more than 362 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: what he divulged to the cops. And he was asked 363 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: point blank the night of the murder, is there an 364 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 2: next girlfriend? Is there an ex boyfriend? 365 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 3: And he said no. 366 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: And also part of what's going on in this story 367 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: is there's like an estrangement between John's family and Sherry's family. 368 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: So it's not totally uncommon in marriages, but the two 369 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 2: dads did not see eye to eye politically, and so 370 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 2: there was some tension through the engagement and stuff like that. 371 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: The dads would argue and talk politics, and Nell's Rasmussen, 372 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: Sherry's father, didn't fully respect John, thought he was sort 373 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 2: of wishy washy. And on the night of the murder, 374 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 2: John came home and found Sherry, and he called nine 375 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: to one one and then he called his own parents, 376 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: his mom and dad, and told them what had happened, 377 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: and they got in their car and drove up from 378 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: San Diego. John did not call Sherry's parents. 379 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: Oh no, did he let the police call them. 380 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: Zh One called them until almost midnight, So about five 381 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: to six hours after John discovered Cherry's body. The Rasmussen's 382 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 2: get a call at their home and it's John's father 383 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: who breaks the news to the Rasmissens that Sherry has 384 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: been murdered and Nell's Sherry's father asks to speak to John. 385 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 2: He says to John's dad, put John on the phone, 386 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 2: and John won't come to the phone. And because of 387 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 2: that delay, it was too late in the evening for 388 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 2: the Rasmussens to get a flight to Los Angeles. If 389 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: they had been told at six pm or something, they 390 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: probably could have gotten on a plane, but with that delay, 391 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: they had to wait until the following morning to take 392 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: the first available flight to LA. So what I described 393 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: in terms of John's first interview with the police, the 394 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: initial police walked through of the condo, and even a 395 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: second walk through of the condo Saturday morning, all of 396 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 2: that happens before Sherry's parents are on the ground in 397 00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: LA And so it's during that second day morning walked through. 398 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 2: It's John and his mother and Detective Mayor and a 399 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 2: second younger detective who was sort of assisting Mayor. They're 400 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: walking through the condo and the body has been removed 401 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: by the coroner the night before. But again there's a 402 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: lot of blood that's still in the carpet, and it's 403 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: undoubtedly very disturbing for John to walk through what had 404 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 2: been his home. He never spent another night there in 405 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: the condo. But the detectives mentioned to him that Sherry 406 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 2: was bidden on the arm, which was because her other 407 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: injuries were so severe. John had not even noticed that 408 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: the night before, and the second detective, his name is 409 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 2: Steve Hooks, who was assisting Mayor, said women bite, something 410 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 2: along the lines of men don't bite. Women bite, and 411 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: John at that point says, there's this woman, this friend 412 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 2: of mine, Stephanie Lazarus, and she's an LAPD officer, and 413 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: you guys should talk to her. So John, it's belated, 414 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 2: but the day after the murder, he does provide the 415 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: detectives with the full name and that she's an LAPED officer, 416 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 2: and he does that in front of his mom and 417 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: the other detective. And there's no record of that, but 418 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 2: John testified to that under oath, and Lyle Mayer, when 419 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: I interviewed him, conceded that John did mention that the 420 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:26,959 Speaker 2: day after the murder. 421 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: So John finally says, you should talk to Stephanie Lazarus. 422 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: She's a police officer does mayor talk to. 423 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 3: Her open question. 424 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: There's no record that he ever spoke to her. 425 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: I'm surprised that he doesn't focus it on John. A 426 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: little bit more too me is the husband. He really 427 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: is honed in on the botched robbery. What do you 428 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: think it was that flipped a switch for him that 429 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: made him ignore everything else, even the husband, even ignoring John. 430 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 2: This is part of what was so so disturbing about 431 00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: how the LAPD handled things after Stephanie was arrested and evencted. 432 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: It's pretty important to figure out what exactly went wrong. 433 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: But the LAPD essentially did the exact same thing that 434 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 2: they did in nineteen eighty six, which was like fingers 435 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 2: and ears and basically saying we're not going to go there, 436 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: we're not going to look at that, which to me, 437 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: the futility of that is it just extends the story. 438 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: And if there's nothing to hide, then there should be 439 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 2: nothing to fear from an investigation, and you do a 440 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: thorough investigation and you put it to bed. Again, it's 441 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: not Lyle Mayer's fault that Stephanie Lazarus committed a murder. 442 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: People of all walks of life commit crimes. It doesn't 443 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 2: matter what your profession, or your social class or your 444 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: upbringing is. 445 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 3: Things happen. 446 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 2: So if Lyle Mayer wanted to protect his reputation, or 447 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: if the LAPD wanted to protect their reputation, the best 448 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 2: thing that they could have done and should have done, 449 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: is just investigate it. Just look at her if you 450 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 2: don't think that she did it. Dozens of times the 451 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 2: Rasmussens contacted the police, They wrote to America's Most Wanted 452 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 2: and a Current Affair and tried. They did everything in 453 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: their power to get the police to look at this 454 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 2: female police officer. So again, at some point it's like, 455 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: is this an oversight or is this a police culture 456 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: thing where it's power and control. Yeah, and it's we're 457 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 2: not going in that direction, no matter what you say. 458 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 2: And I don't think it's motivated by any personal fondness 459 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 2: for Stephanie or anything. I think it's just police culture 460 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: closing ranks, closing ranks, circling the wagons. We're not going there. 461 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's leave nineteen eighty six, and we've left it 462 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: with Detective Mayor saying, bosh robbery and of course we've 463 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: not found the robbers. But we'll be on the lookout. 464 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: We've got Stephanie who eventually gets promoted from being a 465 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: police officer to being a detective. 466 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, she became a detective and she worked in internal 467 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: affairs and then she worked is the detective at Van 468 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: NY's where this murder occurred and was an open case 469 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: at that time, And there's documentation from the case file 470 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 2: that's missing. We don't know how it went missing when 471 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: it went missing, but we do know that Stephanie worked 472 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: in Van Nuys for several years during the nineteen nineties 473 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: and had unfettered access to the murder book. So she 474 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: logged a lot of years as a detective. But there's 475 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 2: no commendations in her record at all for running into 476 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: gunfire solving a murder case. 477 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: Okay, so John moves on. Is I assume he's going 478 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: to get married and maybe have kids at. 479 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 3: Some point John moves on. 480 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 2: At some point in the early nineties, he reconnects with 481 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: Stephanie and they have sex once or twice he said 482 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 2: on the witness end, and then shortly after that he 483 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: meets a woman who he marries and has kiss with, 484 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: and Stephanie teaching a dare class actually in Oregon, meets 485 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 2: a young Oregon police officer who she ends up moving 486 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: down to LA and they marry and end up adopting 487 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 2: a daughter several years after they get married. 488 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: So how do we get then from nineteen eighty six 489 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: to twenty twelve? And I will give people a hint 490 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: that has something to do with that infamous bitemark that 491 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: police found on Sherry's body. 492 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty six. 493 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: When this murder happened, there was no such thing as 494 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 2: DNA analysis. First ever forensic use of DNA to solve 495 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 2: a murder case was not until the following year, nineteen 496 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: eighty seven, and then it was a couple of years 497 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: after that that it came to the United States, and 498 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: then OJ Simpson obviously made DNA a household word, And 499 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 2: in the early two thousands, the LAPD established a cold 500 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 2: case homicide unit that was intended to go back and 501 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 2: look at unsolved cases and leverage some of these forensic 502 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: advances like DNA analysis, fingerprint computers, ballistics databases, things like 503 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 2: that that did not exist previously and try to solve 504 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: these old cases. So the night of the murder, at 505 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: the crime scene, there was a conscientious criminalist, someone who 506 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: worked for the coroner's office, who took a bitemark swab 507 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: of the wound that was on Sherry's arm. It was 508 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: a deep, pretty severe bite mark. Teeth marks were visible, 509 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,959 Speaker 2: and that bitemark swab was stored at the coroner's office 510 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: sat in a freezer for the next twenty some years undisturbed. 511 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 2: When DNA evidence was first becoming better known, like pre 512 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: OJ the years before OJ, Nells requested a meeting with 513 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: the lapd Lyle Mayer. The original detective had retired, but 514 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 2: the case had been handed off to another detective, and 515 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: they offered to pay for DNA evidence. 516 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: The restis instead on the saliva that was found on 517 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: her arm in the bite mark. 518 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I read an article about this new thing called DNA, 519 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: and have you guys considered doing DNA? And the detective 520 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: told them first, well, it's very expensive and I don't 521 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: know that we have it in the budget to do that. 522 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: And nell said, I'll pay for it. Whatever it costs, 523 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: I'll pay for it. And then the detective responded, well, 524 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 2: you have to have someone to compare it to, and 525 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: we don't have a suspect in this case. We haven't 526 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: found a burglar who committed it. And nels was well, 527 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: actually there is a suspect, this female police officer who 528 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: I've mentioned dozens of times, and terribly shortly after that conversation, 529 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: when the ras Missens offered to pay for DNA evidence, 530 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: a Van Nuys homicide detective went to the coroner's office 531 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: and checked out all of the evidence that had been 532 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: collected at the crime scene on the night of the murder, 533 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: and all of that evidence went missing, with the exception 534 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: of one piece of evidence, the bititemark swab, which because 535 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: it was biological evidence, it was stored separately. Bite mark 536 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: swabs were stored in a freezer, whereas the other evidence 537 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: that was collected that night, which would have been things 538 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 2: like fibers and hares that were collected off of Sherry's 539 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: body that very well may have incriminated Stephanie, went missing 540 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety three, checked out by a Van Nuy's 541 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: homicide detective. He signed out for it. He later, after 542 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,239 Speaker 2: Stephanie was arrested, he was confronted and he conceded that 543 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,719 Speaker 2: it was his signature, but said that he had no 544 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: recollection of checking it out, that he never worked the case. 545 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 2: And again that's sort of the limit of the information 546 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: it's available, Like, how do I drill down further beyond that? 547 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: Everybody's unreliable. John's unreliable, right. 548 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: And you're talking about a bureaucracy. A bureaucracy is all 549 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: about passing the buck and no one being ultimately responsible. 550 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 2: So you asked about the bitemark swab. Miraculously, it was 551 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: the one thing that did not disappear. Amazing was evidence 552 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: that the coroner had collected. And in two thousand and 553 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 2: one the LAPD founded a cold case unit and they 554 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: started combing through I think it was nine thousand unsolved 555 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: murders that had been committed in LA between nineteen sixty 556 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: something and the late nineties. And what those detectives when 557 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: they were screening those cases were looking for was basically 558 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 2: low hanging fruit cases that have some sort of biological 559 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: evidence something that's suitable for DNA testing. 560 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 3: So a drive by. 561 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: Shooting it's not a good candidate for DNA analysis. However, 562 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: a burglary murder in an indoor crime scene with evidence 563 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: that's been collected and a bitemark swab and a lot 564 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: of blood evidence at the crime scene, samples of which 565 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 2: were taken, is a very promising candidate for reinvestigation. So 566 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: Sherry's case was flagged in two thousand and three and 567 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 2: a request was made for DNA analysis to. 568 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 3: Be done on evidence in that case. 569 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: They run the DNA and it's one of the heroes 570 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 2: in the story is a criminalist at the LAPD crime Lab. 571 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 2: Now we're in the two thousands. Her name is Jennifer Francis. Ironically, 572 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: this is the first case she ever did DNA testing for. 573 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: She had just been certified as a DNA analyst, and 574 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: she tracked down the bitemark swab which was in the 575 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: coroner's basement freezer for twenty some years, and she tested 576 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: it and she determined that it was a mix of 577 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: two women's DNA. You can tell from DNA analysis whether 578 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: it's X chromosome, Y chromosome, whether it's a male or 579 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: a female donor. And she expected to find female DNA 580 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 2: because Sherry was a woman and some of her skin 581 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 2: cells and the skin was broken, there would be blood 582 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: in her DNA. But she was shocked to find a 583 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: second DNA profile and that it was another woman. And 584 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 2: again it shouts out that this is something with a 585 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 2: personal motive, not a burglary. How many female arm burglars 586 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: are they're running around Van Nuys in nineteen eighty six, 587 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: not very many. And the detective in the cold case 588 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: unit who was assigned the case was a guy named 589 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: Cliff Shepherd. Kind of an old time veteran detective. I think, 590 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: a similar personality type to Lyle Mayer in terms of 591 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 2: not very collaborative with other detectives, old school attitude, liked 592 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 2: to do things his way, would get angry when challenged. 593 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 2: And Jennifer had access to some of the documentation from 594 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 2: the case file, so she saw this is two women. 595 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 3: This is Sherry and another woman. 596 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 2: And from the case file she read that Sherry had 597 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 2: disciplined another nurse at the hospital where she worked before 598 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 2: the murder, and that this woman had made obscene phone 599 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: calls to Sherry that was documented in the records. So 600 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 2: Jennifer reading, she's not a detective, she works on the 601 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: crime lab, she's a civilian, she working her first ever 602 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: comicide case, is like, oh my god, I just solved 603 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: this murder. The nurse did it. There's a woman who 604 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 2: had a beef with the victim, made obscene phone calls 605 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 2: to her, and there's a bite mark and it's a 606 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 2: woman who bit her. So she types up her analysis report, 607 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: which is just the science, not her theory that the 608 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: nurse did it, just the bare bones. This is a 609 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: female DNA profile with these characteristics, and a second DNA profile, 610 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 2: also female, with these characteristics, and she sent it off 611 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 2: to Shepherd, expecting the case is going to get solved 612 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 2: in no time. 613 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: Nothing happens. 614 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: Eventually, Jennifer follows up and calls Shepherd and says, what's 615 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 2: going on with Rasmussen and Shepherd tells her that he's 616 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: looking at male female burglary teams from the nineteen eighties 617 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 2: who may have been active in the valley, and Jennifer, 618 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 2: thinking of the nurse, says to Shepherd, what about the 619 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 2: other woman the nurse is who she's thinking king of? 620 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 2: Shepherd replies to her, you mean the police officer ex girlfriend. 621 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 2: She had nothing to do with this. Interesting, Jennifer says, 622 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: what police officer ex girlfriend? Because there's nothing in the 623 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,439 Speaker 2: murder book about that, So Jennifer didn't see that. How 624 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 2: does Shepherd even know about that when there's nothing documented 625 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: about a police officer ex girlfriend. And at that point 626 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: things sort of go negative for Jennifer. She ends up 627 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 2: being retaliated against and could be a story for another interview, 628 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 2: but I'll just say that for me what I learned. 629 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 2: Jennifer's one of the primary reasons that this injustice was 630 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: turned around and one of the major heroes in the story. 631 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 2: And she has that conversation with Shepherd in two thousand 632 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 2: and five, and the case gets transferred out of the 633 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 2: cold case unit back to Van Eys, which is the 634 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 2: same unit that the case started with, obviously different detectives. 635 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,720 Speaker 2: We're now in two thousand and nine, not nineteen eighty six, 636 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: and there's a detective named James Nuttall who comes in 637 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 2: one morning and opens up the case, opens the murder book, 638 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 2: he reads through it and burglary, so on and so forth, 639 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: and then he sees Jennifer's four year old DNA report 640 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: that says a female suspect and his immediate thought is 641 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 2: this isn't a burglary, And within a matter of days 642 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: he calls Sherry's parents and asks them, Hey, I'm just 643 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 2: going over this case and it came back to me 644 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 2: and we're just doing our due diligence, and let me 645 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: ask you, you know, were there any women who may 646 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: have had a motive to harm Sherry? And mom and 647 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: Dad say yes, yes, and here's her phone number. Well, 648 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 2: the one piece that they didn't have that John had 649 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 2: was her name. Oh, Cherry never told her parents Stephanie 650 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 2: Lazarus's name, So that was the one piece that they 651 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: were never able to provide themselves. But we know that 652 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: John provided it to the police. 653 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: And it's so interesting because of course there's no cell 654 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: phones in eighty six, so there's no way for them 655 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: to really be able to track phone calls and reference back. 656 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 2: No, and John really went into a shell after the murder. 657 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: And so again there's a world in which if John 658 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 2: and the rass missions had shared information and had teamed 659 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 2: up and put pressure on the LAPD together, maybe things 660 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 2: would have gone a different way. But the way that 661 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,720 Speaker 2: they did go was John wanted to believe the police 662 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: were telling him this was a burglary. And again it 663 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 2: just goes to the psychological dimensions of It's the same 664 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 2: thing with Lyle Mayer and Cliff Shepherd in two thousand 665 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 2: and five. No one wants to believe that this is true. 666 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 2: No one wants to believe that a police officer would 667 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 2: be capable of committing a murder like this and going 668 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 2: into work the next day. 669 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: A female police I think is that that's the key 670 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: is female police officer part of this. 671 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 2: As an investigator, you have to check it out either way, 672 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 2: that's the thing. 673 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 3: All you have to do is check it out. 674 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 2: If you don't check it out, that's the problem. 675 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: So they find her, they get her DNA sample, they 676 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: compare it. 677 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 3: And it's a match. 678 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's steps along the way where again they 679 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 2: don't want to believe it. What those detectives when they 680 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 2: reopen to what they're trying to do is eliminate her 681 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 2: as a suspect. 682 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 3: That's what they're trying to do. 683 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 2: They're trying to say, yeah, there's just no way, there's 684 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 2: just no way that this woman. They looked her up 685 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 2: in group mail or whatever, they can see she's still here. 686 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 2: Her husband was assigned to the Van Nu's division. These 687 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: guys are investigating this, and they also had to make 688 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 2: a decision because the LAPD and a lot of police departments, 689 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 2: the policy is, if you become aware of misconduct or 690 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,439 Speaker 2: potential misconduct, you have to report it up the chain 691 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 2: of command, so either to your boss or to ins 692 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 2: her own affairs. If you become aware of any misconduct, 693 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 2: you have to report it. That's what the policy is. Okay, 694 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 2: So finding out a police officer may have committed a 695 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: murder twenty some years ago, I'm pretty sure that's a misconduct. 696 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 2: But these guys knew that she was still an active 697 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 2: police officer, and they didn't know who she was friends 698 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 2: with and how it might get back to her that 699 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 2: they were reinvestigating this case and looking at her. So 700 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 2: they had to make a decision. You know what, We're 701 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 2: not going to put it up the chain of command 702 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 2: just yet. We're going to investigate this thing in secret, 703 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 2: just the four of us. We're going to swear each 704 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 2: other to secrecy. We're not going to tell our spouses. 705 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 2: We're not going to tell anyone what we're up to 706 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 2: until we either eliminate her as a suspect or god 707 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: forbid incriminator. And the problem that they ran into is 708 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: they just were not able to eliminate her every time 709 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 2: they dug deeper. So they found out, oh, she reported 710 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 2: her gun stolen three three weeks after the murder. 711 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not looking good. 712 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 2: So it led up to them. Eventually they told their lieutenant, 713 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 2: who told the chief of police, and a surveillance team 714 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 2: was put on Stephanie, and they collected her DNA sample 715 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 2: and it was compared to the bite mark and it 716 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 2: was a match. 717 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: Okay, and she goes on trial and is convicted. 718 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 2: I'm assuming three years after she was arrested. Yeah, she 719 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 2: went on trial and was convicted of first degree murder 720 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,919 Speaker 2: and sentenced to I think twenty five or twenty seven 721 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 2: to life. 722 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: Does she confess ever or does she say anything? No, No, 723 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:34,879 Speaker 1: she denies it. 724 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 2: She never took the witness stand. I wrote to her 725 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 2: several times requesting an interview. I had interviewed her, remember 726 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 2: how this all started, Like, I interviewed her before she 727 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,839 Speaker 2: was arrested. She's never responded. She did not testify at 728 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 2: the trial. She did not make a statement before her sentencing. 729 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 2: She's never expressed remorse. She's never confessed the last time 730 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 2: that she spoke publicly or not even publicly. You know, 731 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: she was interviewed right before she was arrested. They confronted 732 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: her with the DNA results. 733 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: Does John Sherry's husband ever show any kind of regret 734 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: or remorse? 735 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,280 Speaker 2: He does, And I want to be fair to John. 736 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 2: He did make a statement where he took responsibility to 737 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 2: a degree for what had happened, and he did express 738 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 2: something along the lines of the fact that if Sherry 739 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 2: had not met him, that she would still be alive today. 740 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 2: But to me, what's troubling about John is how he 741 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 2: hurt his own credibility by letting the truth out so 742 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 2: incrementally over time and not understanding that if you just 743 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 2: put it all out there on the table to begin with, 744 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 2: it protects you. It just looks terrible when you're telling 745 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 2: different versions of the story and with each subsequent version 746 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 2: you're admitting to more. 747 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 3: Contact with Stephanie. 748 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: And I can understand to a degree why you would 749 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 2: not want to come out with that your wife is murdered, 750 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 2: you were unfaithful to her, When or exactly are you 751 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 2: gonna put that out before the funeral, But at the 752 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 2: same time you have to, Yeah, it doesn't help to 753 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 2: bottle it up and let it out in pieces later. 754 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: So he valued himself more than he valued his wife 755 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: is really what it comes down to to me. 756 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 2: Well, he's talked in his interviews about nothing's going to 757 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 2: bring Sherry back, that it's just moving on and just 758 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 2: trying to move on, and that nothing that he can 759 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 2: do is going to undo what happened. Before, and so 760 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 2: I do think there's like a certain circling of the 761 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 2: wagons that happens within his family and protecting John, and 762 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,720 Speaker 2: he does project a feeling he's very wounded. He wears 763 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,479 Speaker 2: it on his sleeve, and it's like a protective thing 764 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 2: because if someone is so bereft, are you going to 765 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 2: press that person? Are you gonna worse in their emotional 766 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 2: discomfort by accusing them of lying or something like? 767 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 4: No? 768 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 2: Like, but he uses that as sort of a shield 769 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 2: against scrutiny or further questions, like he knew Stephanie's name. 770 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 2: The Rasmussens did not. They asked him, what is the 771 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 2: name of your ex girlfriend? John would not tell them. 772 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 2: And then when they would go to his parents or 773 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 2: someone else and say we need John to cooperate, their 774 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 2: response was can't you see John as devastated? Yeah, why 775 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 2: are you beating up on John? Can't you see that 776 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,800 Speaker 2: he is a victim here as well? 777 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? I have zero sympathy for that guy, like zero, 778 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: lesson zero disgusting. What is the takeaway that you have 779 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: from this story that. 780 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 2: The police have a long way to go to changing 781 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 2: their culture. This is a murder committed by a police officer, 782 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 2: and very credible accusations of a long running cover up 783 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 2: of a murder committed by a police officer, with multiple 784 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 2: police officers for many years looking the other way. That 785 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 2: is something that warrants an investigation. The LAPED did not 786 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 2: do an investigation. I'm going to the people who are 787 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 2: as high as you can go within the hierarchy, and 788 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 2: what are they doing. They're doing exactly what Lyle Meyer 789 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 2: did in nineteen eighty six and exactly what Cliff Shepherd 790 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 2: did in two thousand and five. Its fingers in the 791 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 2: ears and hoping that this is going to go away 792 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 2: or not my problem, or someone else will deal with it, 793 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 2: or whatever the excuse or the rationalization is. But it's unacceptable. 794 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 2: It's galling. 795 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Deborah Blum on 796 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,800 Speaker 1: the efficiency of poisons as murder weapons. 797 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 4: To be a poisoner, you have to plan ahead. 798 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 2: You can't be an impulse. 799 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: Poisoner can say I'm super. 800 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 4: Mad at you, or I really want your fortune, and 801 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 4: so I'm just going to rush over and research the 802 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 4: best possible poison and get back to you later. You 803 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 4: can lose your temper with a gun. You can be 804 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,479 Speaker 4: fearful with the breck right, but you have to think 805 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,760 Speaker 4: ahead and plan if you're going to be a poison. 806 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for 807 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,720 Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked 808 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold War Wicked. 809 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of Killer 810 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,919 Speaker 1: Edward Rulof's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 811 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 812 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: right tenfold War media production. The producer is Alexis Imirosi. 813 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,800 Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. 814 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 1: Curtis heath is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork. 815 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: Ilsa Brink designed the website. The execute producers are Georgia Hartstark, 816 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram 817 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at 818 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: tenfold More and if you know of a historical crime 819 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in 820 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: your family, email us at info at tenfoldmore Wicked dot com. 821 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 822 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 1: Wicked Words