WEBVTT - Do Superstar Athletes Have Superior Brains? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.600 Guess what, mango, what's that? Well, so you remember a 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.480 couple of years after we got out of school and 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.800 the book Moneyball came out, and we were both fascinated 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.280 by the premise. The basic idea was that the way 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:14.160 so called experts were thinking about evaluating player performance was 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.920 you know, seriously flawed and certainly very subjective at the least. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.880 And and I mean this wasn't just commentators and players. 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.159 I mean this was scouts, coaches, nearly everyone. And that 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.840 is until a few clubs, and especially the Oakland a 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.080 started taking a much more analytical approach to how teams 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:32.880 should be assembled, as they started looking at stats that 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.640 had really kind of been ignored before or at least 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.280 had taken a back seat, so things like on base 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.280 percentage instead of batting average. Yeah, it was super interesting. 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.000 And if I'm remembering correctly, like in those years that 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.200 the A's made it to the playoffs, they were actually 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.960 spending far less than half of what the Yankees were 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.680 spending on their entire club. It really was incredible and 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.840 just super interesting to see how quickly that much more 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:01.040 analytical approach made its way into other sports like basketball. Yeah, 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.400 it was well, now there's a new field that looks 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.480 like it could significantly change sports again, at least according 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.280 to the author of a new book called The Performance Cortex, 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.520 how neuroscience is redefining athletic genius. And today we're lucky 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:15.520 enough to be joined by the author of that book, 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.400 Zach Sewan Brunn. He'll talk to us about why brains 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.760 of certain great athletes like Steph Curry and Serena Williams 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.360 and Tom Brady are just so different. Because while they're 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.600 obviously an incredible shape and have spent countless hours working 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.280 on their craft, we know there's more to it than that. 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.240 How does a great hitter master the timing of drilling 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:38.280 a nine fastball? How did great shooters manage to make 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:40.840 half of their three pointers? And how does a great 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.880 quarterback make such split second decisions with a bunch of 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.160 guys twice their size coming in for the kill. So 0:01:47.200 --> 0:02:11.000 that's what we're talking about today. Let's dive in. Hey, 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.600 their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.959 Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good friend 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.680 Manguesh Ticketer and on the other side of the soundproof 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.320 glass holding a tennis racket in one hand as he 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.280 handles the control panel, and the other that's our friend 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:28.000 and producer Tristan McNeil. Yeah, he's been watching Serena Williams 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.679 videos all morning, just trying to match her reaction time 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.120 on service. Then he's getting pretty good. Actually, it's impressive. Yeah, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:36.080 it's time to sit down, Tristan. It's time to time 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.240 to get focused here. So all right, Mago. As we 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:40.280 mentioned at the top of the show, we're thrilled to 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.519 be joined by the author of a new book called 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:47.760 The Performance Cortex. How neuroscience is redefining athletic genius And 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:49.960 as the book says, it's not about the million dollar 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:54.080 arm anymore, It's about the million dollar brain. Zach Sean Bren, 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.600 Welcome to Part Time Genius. Thanks guys, thanks for having 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.840 me so Zach, I know you've mentioned that the inspiration 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:01.880 for this book came after your wife pointed you to 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.520 this article about two neuroscientists working in Major League Baseball. 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:07.480 Can you talk about what these guys were looking for 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:09.680 and how this all sent you down a rabbit hole 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:14.280 on this topic. Yeah, yeah, it was very serendipitous. Um, 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.160 you know, I had been loving through an alumni magazine 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.120 and and my wife had been with me, and she 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.680 noticed the small little blurb about these two Columbia University 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.240 neuroscientists that were, as you said, they were starting to 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.680 work in in with Major League Baseball kind of as 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.880 a consulting basis, and they were still finishing up their 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.480 their own neuroscience research at at Columbia. And you know, 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.240 I'm a sportswriter. I had heard a little bit about 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:43.560 brain gaming and cognitive training in sports, and obviously mindfulness 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.200 and things like sports psychologists have been around for a while, 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.040 but neuroscience seemed a little different to me, you know. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.600 And they were using uh, neuroscience imaging technique called e g. 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:59.120 Electro and cephalogram to actually figurtively peel back to the 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.560 skull and see what underneath the helmets of these hitters 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.880 and how their brains are responding two pitches. Teams were 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:11.240 really interested in this information, not just for a training 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.240 purposes in terms of maybe getting hitters to improve their 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.320 decision making at swinging at fastballs or curveballs or sliders, 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.840 but also perhaps as a scouting method figuring out, you know, okay, 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.120 what might be a baseline for what the reaction time 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.360 of a major league or needs to be. You can 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:33.320 then kind of fit other prospects or or screen for 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.640 for future players based on that kind of baseline. And 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:42.239 so it really presented this kind of new frontier in analytics, 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.360 which is obviously a big topic because this was not 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:50.080 so much a performance training device but an analysis tool 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:52.920 that was that was very unique. It was interesting hearing 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.400 you talk about, you know, the two m VP front 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.479 runners in the American League last year. You've got jose 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.200 Al Tove, who is when I think, like five ft 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.040 six and maybe a hundred and sixty five pounds, and 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.679 then you've got Aaron Judge, who's well over six ft 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.080 six six ft seven or so two eighty two pounds, 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.240 and they're both great players. But if you look at 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.640 the two of them, you know, you you wouldn't know 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.560 exactly what makes the two of them great because they 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.000 look so different and obviously there is something different happening 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.279 in their brain. And it's just interesting to me that 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.880 this hasn't really been looked at before. Well, why do 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.240 you think this isn't something that's been written about or 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.039 or researched as much previously. Well, I mean, if you 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.800 remember Moneyball, if remember the movie money Ball, and you 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.960 remember the scouts talking of even back then about scouting 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.120 players based on the good face, right and and you 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:44.760 know what the guy was cancering where the guy had 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.479 a girlfriend and uh and that was going to predict 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:49.520 and I'll predict how they would turn out to be 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.159 a major league players. And I was kind of laughed 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.120 about in the movie. And some of that has changed 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.120 with still so much of scouting and analytics. In fact, 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.040 all of scouting an analytics to this point is all 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.480 post talc narratives that are put together after the guy 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.320 swings or you know, or a dozen't swing and takes 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:11.840 a walk, and now those stats are compiled from there, 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:16.160 so you know, these guys were doing something that was 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:21.160 obviously occurring before any pitch reached home plate um. And 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.800 I think you know what has taken some time for 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.520 for teams to wrap their head around about this kind 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:32.200 of technology is there's not quite enough data yet for 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.599 them to say whether or not it's it's you know, 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:38.000 useful to them. They they care about winning games. They 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.640 don't want to put their players um through a lot 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.960 of rigor. And you know these sorts of science, this 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.480 sorts of analysis, it takes time. You know, you have 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.960 to wear any e g. Cap for forty minutes clicking 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.520 on a laptop keyboard, and you know, it's not something 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:56.599 that players obviously want to spend a lot of time doing, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.880 especially if they're not even convinced that this is going 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.279 to help them. You know, coming away from this and 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.960 spending time with with Jason and Jordan's, I have no 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.039 doubt that this type of technologies it's as it continues 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.160 to get easier and easier to use, it's going to 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.560 be more and more prevalent in in sports. Speaking of 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:14.840 a of a different Jordan, I was actually in high 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.160 school in the Birmingham area when Michael Jordan was playing 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.280 for the White Sox double A team the Birmingham Barons then, 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.360 and of course it was you know, a ton of 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.760 hype around him being there, and it was a lot 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.000 of fun to go see these games and you're talking 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:29.720 about one of the greatest athletes and one of the 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.840 greatest competitors of all time. But it never quite clicked, 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.760 you know, on the on the hitting front. And I 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.960 don't know what we all expected, but you know, it 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:40.280 was just interesting to see that it didn't quite come 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.920 together in that way. And so would you say this 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.280 probably did have something to do with you know, obviously 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.760 there had been a lack of training over so many years, 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.560 But at the same time, did he not quite have 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.800 that thing or whatever that brain factor is to to 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.960 have become the hitter he was hoping to be. Yeah, 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.360 that's that's exactly right. And I mean this story of 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.880 Michael Jordan as a baseball player has always been remembered, 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:04.800 as you kind of said, it's kind of an embarrassment 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.800 and a failure. And and I actually think that's really 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.840 not not the case, and and and probably not fair. 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.320 He certainly had the athleticism. He had he had the 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:19.160 tools physically to become a a superstar in baseball obviously. 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:20.960 I mean, he was the greatest afflete in the world. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.480 He had the quick hands, he had the coordination of 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:29.320 his legs, and that's probably what enabled him to even 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.840 that two hundred at the double A level, which you know, 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.880 again that to me is incredible. Uh. And and that 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.120 should not be perceived as a failure but really more 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.600 of a marvel. But what he didn't have was what 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.000 Jason and Jordan are studying, that he didn't have the 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.880 decision making ability in his brain, the the regions of 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.360 his brain that are necessary for hitting. Through studies, we've 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.959 sort of gotten a bit of a clue into what 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.320 regions might be necessary for hitting. Those regions had not 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.199 been exercised in that way in in a dozen years, 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.480 and in that in that short amount of time that 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.760 one summer, they weren't going to be exercised enough for 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.400 him to uh for him to make the Major League. Well, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.320 I always think the same thing, that is just stunning 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.160 that he was able to walk into a different sport 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.360 and compete even at that level. It's it's pretty incredible. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.439 But could you talk a little more specifically about what 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.559 brain regions are crucial for baseball players. Motor studies are 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.199 just inherently difficult to do if you're not taking a 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.319 hitter and putting them into a batting cage. But they 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.120 do try and simulate what it's like to be hitting 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.040 a pitch, or at least responding to a pitch via 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.440 a video game simulation. And they were able to stick 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:41.360 several Columbia University baseball hitters into an m r I 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.760 and see what was responding in their brains as these 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.120 pitches were coming. And obviously compare those anomalousies, and they 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:53.000 found two brain regions in particular that were of interest 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.680 and that we're activating or their their their neurons were 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.320 responding in a way that was different than novices. And 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:04.040 the first was the supplementary motor area. This was particularly 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.080 responsive when the hitters were deciding not the swing. And 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:11.160 this made a lot of sense because in other studies 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.840 involving the supplementary motor area, that region is particularly active 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.200 in tasks where you have to inhibit your movement, such 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.120 as when you just might be watching something but you're 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:24.920 not you're not supposed to move. And so the fact 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.320 that these hitters when they're not swinging and their supplementary 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.760 motor area is lighting up, it's it told the researchers 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:33.560 that they're kind of hitters are kind of on a 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.640 hairpin trigger. You know, they don't have much time to react. Obviously, 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:39.800 they have four milliseconds, and if you want to break 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:41.719 it down, they actually have less than that. I mean, 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.120 it's it's half an eye blink. Yeah, it's incredible. And 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.760 so they have to be ready to swing, you know, 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.360 at at any moment. And so what is it that 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.840 might separate the good hitters from the not so good hitters, 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.040 and actually might not be their ability to swing, but 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.720 it might be their ability to hold off and not swing. 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.400 And so, um that where the supplementary motor area comes 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:06.320 into fla. When the hitters were responding two pitches and 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.400 we're we're swinging. The other area that that lit up 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.280 primarily was this place called the fusiform gyrus um, which 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.480 is part of the fusiform face area. It's involved with face. 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:19.720 It's it's been shown another studies to be heavily involved 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.360 with facial recognition. So when I am scanning a crowd, 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:27.280 I can immediately notice my my mother's face in that crowd, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.240 you know, instantaneously, because I'm you know, I'm quote unquote 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.320 an expert in seeing her face right. And so it's 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.479 been shown in a lot of other studies on expertise, 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:43.320 whether it's a bird watchers or far enthusiasts or chess players, 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:47.120 that's the region that acts as the trigger to the 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.560 motor system to jump start in its emotion. Those were 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.960 primarily the two regions of interest that they found in hitters. 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.280 And I think intuitively it kind of makes some sense. Yeah, 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.240 And it sounds like you have some of those same 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.520 skills as well. I mean, if Alta can hit a 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.520 fastball and you're using that same region of the brain 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.239 to recognize your mom and a crowd, that's really impressive. 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.800 So congratulations on that. All right, well, I want to 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.400 talk about my favorite sport. But before we do that, 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:29.400 let's take a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.079 We're talking about the new book, The Performance Cortex, how 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.920 neuroscience is redefining athletic genius. So Zach, I'm actually eager 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.400 to talk a little bit about Steph Curry because we're 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:41.840 getting towards the end of the basketball season here. It's 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.320 been an exciting one to watch. Hopefully he comes back 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.240 from his injury and we'll have a really exciting playoff 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.040 season to watch. But I do want to talk about 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:51.839 him a bit because, you know, you look at two 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.080 of the greatest basketball players on the planet. You've got 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.800 Lebron James, who's at six ft eight two fifty pounds, 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.360 and not to take anything away from his skill, but 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.679 he's kind of a superhuman build. And then and then 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:05.840 you take somebody like Steph Curry, and you know, if 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:07.640 you didn't know him, and he just walked into your 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.120 local pickup game, you wouldn't necessarily know that you were 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.680 in the presence of maybe the greatest basketball player in 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.160 the world until you saw him play, of course. And 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.600 so I think he's what six ft three, not even 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.520 two hundred pounds, So I'm curious, like what is going 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:26.160 on in Curry's brain that makes him so great? Yeah, yeah, 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.720 I mean it's a great question. I wish we knew, um, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.160 because you know, obviously, you know, he he has yet 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.280 to avail himself of of of any neuroscience labs, and 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.880 I know that neuroscientists would love to get her hand 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.080 and get their hands on him, because you know, he 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.000 is a great example of this what we've been talking about, 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.600 and that is that you can't necessarily judge an athlete 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.280 purely on his on his physical attributes. You know, Steph 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.920 Curry coming out of college was considered too unathletic playing 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.360 the NBA by scouts, and he was he dropped down 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.280 and forwards because he was maybe too slow. They didn't 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.480 think he can defend and um, you know, and they 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.240 and they just were he was not big enough. He 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.559 did not look like Lebron James, who comes to mind 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.800 anytime you think about an NBA player, and yet he's 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.800 been able to rise above above the rest of the league. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:18.959 And I think, you know, if you were to take 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.840 his his measurable still today and line them up with 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.320 two other NBA guards, you wouldn't be able to pick 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.480 him out of a lineup. As a sports fan, now, 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.120 I've been focused my my whole life on oh the 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.320 you know, the the speed, the agility, the wingspan of 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.200 of of especially of NBA prospects, you know as they're 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.520 coming out to all the scouts and analysts talk about 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.400 and those are certainly characteristics and factors that can contribute 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.680 the performance. Don't get me wrong, but but Steph Curry 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.160 is a great example of this idea that it's it's 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.480 it's not everything. I remember reading this thing about Steph 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.720 carry playing horse with his brother Set then is that Dell? 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:02.920 And that the games could go on for hours because 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:09.760 they were all such good shooters. So funny, But staying 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.320 with the basketball, I'm curious, um, you know, why is 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.080 it that we never see an NBA player get anywhere 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.440 to like a percent of making their free throws. It's 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.840 called the charity stripe and and all that, like well, 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.320 what is it about the muscle movements that that that 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.040 makes this such a difficult task? Yeah, right, It always 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.400 frustrates me, right that you know, these guys practice it 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.040 so much and and uh, and yet they they're still 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.680 unable to make a hundred, not even really get close. 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.400 I think the the all time leaders is somewhere around 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.760 or something. If you want to think about our our 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:48.120 nervous system, the connections between the brain and the musky glature, 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:53.120 as like telephone wires, um, the signals that get sent 0:15:53.680 --> 0:16:00.440 throughout our body are inherently afflicted with some jittery no ways. 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.560 What it's called. It's called neuromotor noise. This is inherent 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:08.880 to our system. It's just the biological reality. Um, everybody, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.280 everybody has it. And it's just a function of our 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:16.520 systems not being perfect. You know, we're human, right. You 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.560 can't make two of the same, exact, precise movements, as 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.480 as much as you want to try, Um, you're not 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.440 gonna make two movements of the same Nikolai Burnstein called 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:33.000 this repetition. Without repetition, you can repeat movements that functionally 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.040 look the same, such as swinging an axe and chopping 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.040 a piece of wood. At all. You know, it looks 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.800 the same and you will still hit the acts and 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.160 the same mark, but the movement to actually get to 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.760 that point will change. Uh. And and that's that is 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.760 a function of the noisiness of our system. And it's 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.360 the reason we have the game of darts. Right if 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.240 if if we were if we were all moving and 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.760 we had no noise and we move perfectly, we wouldn't 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.880 have the competition our darts because every one of our 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.400 movements would just be be the same and be able 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.400 to throw the dark in the same spot. And so 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.439 you know, we can create robots that move without noise, 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:15.280 but but not ourselves. We we have this um innately 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.119 in our systems. And uh, it's a it's you know, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.680 it's it's the reason that these NBA guys, no matter 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.440 how much they practice um you know, they they will 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.320 they're going to have different movements on on different nights, 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.359 and their free throws as a results are going to change. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.159 Maybe one day, you know, it'll it'll happen because somebody 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.480 will have a less less noisy system than the rest 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.560 of us. But to this point it hasn't happened. Wow, 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.720 that's uh, that's fascinating. To think about it. I never 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:45.560 thought about it that way. I will say when shock 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.520 shot free throws, it did pretty much always look like 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.320 the same horrible line drive form. But but I guess 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.359 even with Shack and it wasn't you know, moving to 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.720 a different sport, you talk about tennis stars as being 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:04.040 math gen uses. So so why do you say that? Yeah, well, yeah, 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:08.679 it sounds a little strange. You know, tennis tennis in particular, 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.159 when you were turning a serve in times incredibly quickly, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.879 and you're not just swinging at a at a ball 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.639 that's coming in, you know, straight at you. You're also 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.040 anticipating where this ball is going to have to bounce. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.520 You're anticipating what kind of bouts you're going to receive. 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.840 And the more experience you have, and that's in that situation, 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.240 the more accurate your probability will be. So Roger FEDERI, 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.160 he's got a lot of experience and therefore he can 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.520 he's going to be more accurate in in choosing the 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:41.080 correct response for each serve. You can effectively say that 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.000 that these these tennis experts are actually using math um 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.560 to to figure out where where the ball is gonna 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.520 be come, which line, likely with my own perspective because 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.639 I was a mediocre tennis player and a mediocre math student. 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.960 So I think that that add it all, it all 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.919 makes perfect sense. Actually, there there there was one side 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.040 note to that I remember, and it makes more sense 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.199 now thinking about this article that I remember from our 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.480 Mental Flaws days, where a reader had asked the question, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.440 you know, does it actually help a player or give 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.800 them an advantage when they grunt when they hit the 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.640 tennis ball? And you know, I guess the studies were 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:20.040 showing that that grunting actually does provide a slight advantage 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:24.040 because it kind of muffles the sound of the ball 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:28.200 hitting the racket, and it gives the opposing player maybe 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.520 slightly less time or slightly less information. You know, to 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.440 your point, Zach, that they are kind of using all 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.280 of these calculations, even unconsciously, as they hear a ball 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.560 hit a racket, to then decide and that millisecond, you 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.280 know where the ball may be going or how fast 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:46.320 it may be coming to them. So you know, the 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:47.720 next time we get out there, I think I'm probably 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.400 gonna scream a lot every time I hit the ball. 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.000 It's gonna be great. Well, I mean, what it comes 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:57.120 down to is our movement system, our motor system. It's 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.760 actually costs slow, you know. And and this, this is 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.160 one of the things that surprised me most is that, 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.440 you know, I kind of assumed that nervous signals, um, 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.600 you know, occur quickly, they happen quickly, but it actually, 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.160 you know, it's actually slower than than you would think. 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.480 It takes time. And so when you're talking about responding 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.840 to you know, a hundred and fifty mile an hour 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.359 serve with all the pressure and and in front of 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.320 in front of a stadium of a full of fans, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.000 and trying to you know, obviously hit an accurate return. 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.680 You're not just trying to make contact. You have to respond, 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.800 you have to return it to the right spot. And so, 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:36.399 you know, all these things factor into the way that 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.480 our brain has to make predictions about what's about to unfold. 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.520 And this this happens all the time, and it especially 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.879 happens in athletes. And the more experience you have in 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.560 moving and responding to the tasks that you're shown, um, 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:57.000 the the stronger the link between perception and action might be. 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.679 I'll give you an example. There's an amazing study if 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:04.680 you're as ago at in Rome, involving a few professional 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:06.720 basketball players. I think they they gathered like six or 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.119 eight professional Italian basketball players and they had them watch 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:14.400 a clip of a sky shooting free throws, and they 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.399 stopped the clip just as the ball was about to 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.760 be released from the player's hands. They asked these subjects 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.760 that these professional players, they asked them whether that the 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.040 guy made the shot, and they found that the the 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:32.119 professional basketball players were far more accurate in predicting whether 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.240 the guy was going to make or miss the chop 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.640 than even coaches who were also shots clip and other experts, 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.840 you know, sportswriters and fans and so on, and so 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:46.000 what that told them is that being actively involved in 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.840 in your you know, whatever task you're trying to do, 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.560