1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Before we get started, folks, it's important to know that 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: this episode contained some strong and explicit language that may 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: not be suitable for all the listeners. So if you've 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: got your kiddos in the crowd, this might not be 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: the episode for them. We thought about censoring it, but 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: we decided we couldn't, not in good faith because this 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: episode is fundamentally about free speech and language. We hope 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: you enjoy. Yeah, welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. 9 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in. If you check the headlines 10 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: or the title of your podcast before you listen to them, 11 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: you will know that this episode two of a two 12 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: part series. If you have not heard episode one, please 13 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: don't delay, click pause, go listen to episode one. You'll 14 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: want to catch up. Hi, I'm Ben. Hey, it's me 15 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: No and all my microphonic glory. You sound wonderful. Its 16 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 1: tones dulcet tones. Yeah, so we had, as we said, 17 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: a little bit of a technical difficulty in the first episode. Yeah, 18 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: hopefully you can hear me bleeding into another mic, but 19 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: it's just not as high fidelity as this is. Listen 20 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: to me leaning into the mic. Well. So we are, 21 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: of course always accompanied by a super producer to help 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: us save the show today. That is our guest super producer, 23 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: Paul Decant. However, we still hold a very special place 24 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: in our hearts for our super producer Casey Peck and 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: a glint in our eye and uh swinging our steps. 26 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: And we are also joined today by our incredible guest 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: Wayne Fetterman, who had some incredible things to say about 28 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: the history of stand up the storied careers of Lenny 29 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: Bruce and today specifically George Carlin. And without further ado, 30 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: let's get the show on the road. This is this 31 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: is incredible. I am still like, it's amazing. This all 32 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: happened when I was a kid, so it's just it 33 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: was just great. George Carlin again, who was you know, 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: a beneficiary of Lenny Bruce's expanding expansion of language, and 35 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: there was a number of comedians like it allowed Red 36 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: Fox and Richard Pryor to speak in their street vernacular 37 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: without getting arrested. You know. It was just like, I 38 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: don't know, this is the way I talked on the 39 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: corner when I'm making people laugh. I think I can 40 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: bring this on stage. But Carlin was like, I don't 41 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: know what indecent or uh means exactly. So I'm going 42 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: to come up with a list of words you can 43 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: never say on television, and those words I'm going the 44 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: same right now. Please, this is in order. It's ship, piss, fuck, hunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, 45 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: and tits. So that is that was the original bit 46 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: of his. And he later was like, it's weird that 47 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: I put motherfucker in there because I already said funk earlier, 48 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: which is a version of it. But he just liked 49 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: the rhythm of it. And I just need to say 50 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: this because it's very important to the whole story. George 51 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: Carlin didn't want to be a comedian. George Carlin wanted 52 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: to be a famous actor, movie star, and his idol 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: was a guy named Danny Kay and Danny Kay was 54 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: known for these very twisty songs and speeches where he 55 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: would have high level of verbal acuity. Yeah, yeah, just 56 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: inject real quick. I'm so glad you mentioned Danny Kay, Wayne, 57 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: because he's he is one of the actors I loved 58 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: growing up, especially in the original version of Walter Middie. 59 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: So it's totally familiar with that turn in Freeze. So 60 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: that that was Carl's sort of north star for a while. 61 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: It was his north star until he realized that he 62 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: hated acting for kind of the reasons that we spoke 63 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: about earlier. That he was just he didn't like authority, 64 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: you know, so like, if there's a director on the 65 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: SAT tell him to stand here and say this, he's 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: not gonna like that. He didn't realize it at the time. 67 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: He was like, Oh, I'd rather just write and say 68 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: my own stuff, you know, and be completely free of 69 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: Even when he hosted Saturday Night Live, he said to 70 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: Laura Michaels, I don't want to be in these sketches. 71 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to rehearse these things. Can I just 72 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: do my comedy and you know, and bring my brain 73 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: and my mouth and that'll be good. That'll be good. 74 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: And he's the first host of the first Saturday Night 75 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: Live in you know what I believe. So anyway, so 76 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: that's that ended his Danny cadream. But this bit, the 77 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: ship piss fuckunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits has a certain 78 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: Gilbert and Sullivan rhythm to it that he loved, and 79 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: that was part of the bit. That's what made that 80 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: as well as these words. So anyway, he did this 81 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: bit on an album called Class Clown, came out in 82 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. The next year he does another album 83 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: called Occupation Fool, and he expands on it and he 84 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: calls it the Filthy Words. This is what happens. There's 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: a public radio station or excuse me, not public radio 86 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: at PACIFICA and what is that? How would you describe 87 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: Pacific that network? College? Yeah, yeah, they're certainly not like 88 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: a top forty, right, They're kind of alternative for their day, 89 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, right, progre I would say, progressive radio station 90 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: in New York. Again in New York, you know, the 91 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: vanguard of progressive ism w b AI. And they're doing 92 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: a whole thing about just language and the hypocrisy of 93 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: language and where is this thing? And so they play 94 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: Filthy Words, which is kind of an expanse. He talks 95 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: about ship a lot, ship face, the thing, what is 96 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: a you know, shit kicker and all of that. Some 97 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: guy named I John Douglas. I just I don't remember that, 98 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: but I wrote it down. He hears it in his 99 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: car with his fifteen year old son. Again, we're gonna 100 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: go back to youth, remember that statute youth and others, 101 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: And he calls the fc This is in the middle 102 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: of day afternoon. They play it and w b A 103 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: I says, look, this might be offensive, but I just 104 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: he's just talking about words. He's just using words to 105 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: talk about words and our language. So he caused the 106 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: f c C lodges a complaint. The f c C says, 107 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna get a mark on your record. I think 108 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: some people said it was a hundred dollar fine. Other 109 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: people said no, I'm not sure. And basically w b 110 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: AI Pacific A Radio says I'm gonna sue the f 111 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: c C and and say this is unconstitutional because of 112 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: the First Amendment. Before playing this, George Carlin bit on 113 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: the air at two o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon in 114 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: nineteen any questions, I think we're with you so far, 115 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: but this sounds like sounds like it's about to get 116 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: quickly out of control. Right. Guess what the US Court 117 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: of Appeals in Washington, d C. You may be familiar 118 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: with that court. Brett Kavanaugh was just on that court. 119 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: Marrick Garland is on that court. That's considered that the 120 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: highest up to the right below the Supreme Court, the 121 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: penultimate court. Right. They agree with Pacifica They were like, Yeah, 122 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: this is this is too broader definition of what's in 123 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: indecent or obscene, and we're going to strike down this 124 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: fine or this mark on your record. So guess what. 125 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: They bring it to the Supreme Court, And in the 126 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: five to four decision, this is George Carlin, a ninth 127 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: grade dropout, having his words read in the Supreme Court 128 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: about whether they think these words are indecent or obscene 129 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: or what the difference between indecent or obscene is. And uh, 130 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: guess what. The Court, in a very narrow fighter four decisions, 131 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: says that during the daytime hours, the fcc US have 132 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: the right to say you can't play anything that would 133 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: be considered obscene or indecent, but after ten o'clock you can't. Yeah. 134 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: I think that the term is a safe harbor. I 135 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: believe is the term they that is right. I love 136 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: the research you guys are doing, So that's kind of 137 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: what happened. I just Carlin to the day he died. 138 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: He said he always had a perverse pride in the 139 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: fact that somewhere in Supreme Court like case law as 140 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: a precedent that his stupid routine he did on an 141 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: album called you Know class. Excuse me, occupation full is 142 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: uh is part of the history, the legal history of 143 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: the United States. Well, let's hear a quick moment of 144 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: Carlin himself talking about how he feels about words and 145 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: some of this love it. There is absolutely nothing wrong 146 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: with any of those words in and of themselves. They're 147 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: only words. It's the context, ac counts, It's the user. 148 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: It's the intention behind the words that makes them good 149 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: are bad. The words are completely neutral, The words are innocent. 150 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: I get tired of people talking about bad words and 151 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: bad language. Bullshit. It's the context that makes them going 152 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: our bad, the context that nice them good to bad. 153 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: We do also want to mention we would be remiss 154 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: if we skipped this part. Not only not only is 155 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Carlin's are excerpts of Carlin's performance and his writing part 156 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: of Supreme Court case law. But he was quoted alongside 157 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: Shakespeare and passages from the Bible. They think of the 158 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: Bible and the Bible they mentioned the line. They were like, oh, 159 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: is is this uh motherfucker stuff so bad? Because the 160 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: Bible says he who pisteth against the wall, So where's 161 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: the line? And then they also mentioned Shakespeare saying pissing conduits. 162 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: So this became an argument, um, and started as this 163 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: again sort of hypocritical argument about decency and the hearts 164 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: and mind minds of the innocent and unspoiled, but it 165 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: quickly became a much more I think, a much more 166 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: intelligent argument about the role of language and literature. And 167 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: you know what, good on Carlin. Yeah, he earned it, 168 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: no doubt. And I'm still deciding whether or not we 169 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: can even release this episode fully uncensored. There is a 170 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: family show technically way just f y I but I 171 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: think this is valuable to the point of, like, you 172 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: can't censor it, uh, and it it almost does. It 173 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: would be hypocritical of us. It would be hilariously hypocritical. Um, 174 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: this is like we're caught in a loop here. We 175 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: are get a lot of talk about these words. Now 176 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna be censored. Um. No, it's true because Carlin 177 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: couldn't say these words when he did The Tonight Shoe 178 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: or talk about it that way. But when he did 179 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: Chris Rocks hbo Joe, he was able to say the words. 180 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: So it is interesting. I mean, it's still you wouldn't 181 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: want to say these words in front of a kid. 182 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: I guess right. It depends on the kid. Yeah, some 183 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: kids have really tough, tough constitutions. My nine year old, 184 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: who's actually here right now, has been like giving us 185 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: the devil horns this whole time. Dan. Yeah, yeah, but man, 186 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: I don't even know where do we go from here? 187 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, what's next? Well, the Supreme Court case was 188 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight, but really what happened in nineteen 189 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: seventy five changed everything, And that's when HBO started doing 190 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: these our specials. They were called eventually called on location 191 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: and the first one was done by Robert Klein at 192 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: a school in the Northeast, and he's a very clean comedian, 193 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: but even in that specially goes, all right, I have 194 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: total freedom to say anything. Uh shit, you know, he 195 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: just said, just to say the words and uh. But 196 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: then the next in nineteen seventy seven, Carlin does and 197 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: if you can find this this would be amazing, his 198 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: first of fourteen HBO specials. And before the special begins, 199 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: they have a newscaster talking about that this there's gonna 200 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: be some language on here that you're not used to 201 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: hearing on television. And then this it gets even crazier. 202 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: In the middle of an HBO special, they stopped the 203 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: special and run a disclaimer over the screen saying, the 204 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: next portion of this comedy act will contain language that 205 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: might be unsuitable for children, please, and then cuts back 206 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: to Carlin at usc just to bring it all full 207 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: circle at Bovard Auditorium and uh and then talks about 208 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, these this language and these words, and he 209 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: sort of became famous for this in a way where 210 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: the language and the the arrest of Lenny Bruce sort 211 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: of destroyed Lenny Bruce. In a way, it did make 212 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: him famous, but he became so consumed with it, and 213 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: if you really listen to his act at the end, 214 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times he would just read court transcripts. 215 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: Was his act. He was obsessed. Huh, yes, yes, very 216 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: much so. And you know, I don't know how much 217 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: of the drugs will make a paranoid or whatever, but 218 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: it's like, it's very it's it's really sad to listen 219 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: to him just go on and on about it. And 220 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: in a way it elevated Carlin's career. So in a 221 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: short period of time from let's say sixty five till 222 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: I guess seventy five, like in those ten years have 223 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: started to change. And then once we got those HBO specials, 224 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: suddenly there's Red Fox to win an HBO special where 225 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: you know, he's like, I don't want to repeat the language, 226 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: but it's you know, it is graphic adult entertainment. So 227 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: and that continues to this day. Although I will say this, 228 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: I do feel like there's a different kind of censorship 229 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: going on now in in comedy a little bit, and 230 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: Carlin talked about it at the end that he wouldn't 231 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: play colleges, and I know Seinfeld won't, and I know 232 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: Chris Rock because people are so sensitive about hearing something 233 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: that might be offensive, like offensive is the new anddecent 234 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: in our society. Again, no one's gonna get arrested, which 235 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: you might get shamed or lose a job because of it. 236 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: So what would be an example of that? What do 237 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: you mean like like like like or like somebody being 238 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I can think of one off 239 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: the top, And this is a really extreme example. That 240 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: guy Milo Unapolis, who is a alt right kind of 241 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: looting tune. Like you can you can disagree with what 242 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: he has to say, but technically, you know, you would 243 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: like to have him have the right to say it. 244 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: But he's also not doing comedy. No, he's not doing comedy, 245 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: but he's comedy. But he was he was banned from 246 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: all these college campuses. And this is not me saying 247 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: good on Milo. I'm just saying we're talking about the 248 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: First Amendment, and there are lines between like, you know, 249 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: being indecent and and uh, you know, being a supporter 250 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: of violence. So the whole deal with like indecency is 251 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: like or freedom of speeches, like you can say what 252 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: you want as long as you're not actively hurting something. 253 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: Freedom of speech is also not freedom from consequences. That's 254 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: also true. But I'm just wondering, like this whole PC 255 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: police thing. I think that's why I brought up this 256 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: extreme example, because he is an extreme example of not 257 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: being PC. And I don't think this exclusively a discussion 258 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: about comedy. This is about speech, so yes it is, 259 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: and I look, I agree. Look, I'm listening very carefully 260 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: to what you're saying, and I agree with you, and 261 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not that from me with my low 262 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: stuff other than being in his fan club, but I 263 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: know I'll no I but I I do think it's 264 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: interesting that Carlin and Seinfeld and Chris Rock won't play 265 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: colleges because of how offensive much some people might find 266 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: what they're saying, which is strange. It's not strange because 267 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: you can really get I don't want to use the 268 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: word bullied, but you can really get publicly shamed online 269 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: in a big way if you know, if people think 270 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: what you're saying is offensive. And again, I'm you know, 271 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: this doesn't affect me personally, but as a hiss somebody 272 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: who's like interested in the history of comedy, I feel 273 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: like the walls are narrowing, as opposed to for so 274 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: long in my life they just kept broadening. And it 275 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: used to be like if you made fund of Catholics 276 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: or something like that and they get upset, you're like, well, 277 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: f of them if they can't take a joke. But 278 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't exist anymore for sudden people who feel like 279 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: you can't make kind of a marginalized community. That's a euphemism. 280 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. So it's 281 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: like any any of that. So it's I know, this 282 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: is off the track a little bit. I don't even 283 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: know if you want to not at all, not at all, 284 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: but I do think it's it is interesting that we've 285 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: become we've sort of shrunk back to a much more 286 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: like be careful, walking on eggshells comedy around certain subjects 287 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: that didn't exist when I was a kid. And I 288 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: know Carlin said something phenomenal about it. He said that 289 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: political correctness is and I'm paraphrasing here, insipid because it 290 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: comes under the guys of tolerance. It's like, that's you're 291 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: under the guys of hey, we're just trying to make 292 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: it all better for everyone. But basically what you're doing, 293 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: you're saying. You can't say that. He hated that. It's 294 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: the opposite of comedy, right, it's the opposite of what 295 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: stand up comedy, the opposite of free speech. Yeah, more importantly, Yeah, 296 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: but but he knew. You know, it was interesting that 297 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: he had that that side. He saw it coming and 298 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 1: he really railed against it in a big way. Do 299 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: you see this trend? You know, we've we've walked through 300 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: some of the history, so let's let's walk towards the future. 301 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: Do you see this trend escalating or do you think 302 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: it's just another cyclical thing that will fall away. I 303 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: guess what I'm asking is, do we have some more 304 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: Supreme Court cases in the future. If we had to 305 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: guess that would I don't think so, because I don't 306 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: think it's about the guy. I don't think any government 307 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: is is going in And I don't to tell you 308 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: the truth, I don't know. It all depends on hate speech, 309 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: is basically. What it comes down to is whether you 310 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: think hate speech is something that should exist or that 311 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: it's completely protected by the First Amendment. So and you know, 312 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: I know you're not allowed to incite somebody. These words 313 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: are so you know, a morphous I know you're not 314 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: allowed to do that. So so I don't think this 315 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: is This is more about you know, vigilante vigilanteism in 316 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: speech control, you know, in the same way Catholics used 317 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: to do it in the you know, in the forties. 318 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: It's such a slippery slope too, because what about like 319 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: things like dog whistle politics, where you have these uh, 320 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: potentially racist speakers that aren't outright saying kill kill this 321 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: group of people or hurt this group of people, but 322 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: they're using these kind of coded words that speak to 323 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: their base or what have you, and then that's interpreted. 324 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: But you know, from a legal standpoint, you can't say, oh, 325 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: he said to do this because it's all in the subtexteah, 326 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: and it's it's you know, it's that's the whole thought 327 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: police thing where it's like, once you start banning words 328 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: like Carlin's words, you potentially could ban any words. So 329 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: it's a dangerous territory. But it's also like where does 330 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: that leave us? I strongly feel like we should not 331 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: bleep this episode. Yeah, we just gonna have to put 332 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: a really strongly worded sorry. I didn't know why did 333 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: you make me say those? Because we thought it'd be 334 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: funny if you bleep them, and then in staid like 335 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: do your homework. But now we were pretty much from 336 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: the start not gonna And also, you nailed the cadence, 337 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: so you gotta have the cadence. You can't just read 338 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: the seven words in some sort of like you have 339 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: to Danny kay it up a little bit. That's true. Well, 340 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: this this has been illuminating, and I like that we're 341 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: ending on a question where And the thing about this 342 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: story is that it's not over now. This conversation, this conflict, 343 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: this controversy continues of far past the fifties and the 344 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: late forties into the future into the new millennium. But 345 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I was saying at the top 346 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: of the show, where it's like, you know, comedy and 347 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: and this kind of thing that you that you know 348 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: has this the guys of like, oh, this is entertained, man, 349 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: this is light. Stuff is just to kind of pass 350 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: the time. Yet we're talking about it in terms of 351 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: like race riots and the use of language to like 352 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: physically hurt people and incite, you know, these kind of 353 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: crazy events that can happen and that we're seeing happen 354 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: in the news. And we're talking about the freedom of 355 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: thought in a very real way. And the interesting thing 356 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: is this is the first Amendment to the Constitution, like 357 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: thinking they would have no idea back then, But how 358 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: powerful an idea that the government shall make no laws 359 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: infringing on freedom of speech? Like that is insane that 360 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: that's still I just I love those guys, crazy white 361 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: slave owners. Okay, can I do a little button for 362 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: the whole episode please? You might find interesting or it's not, 363 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: who knows. But when I was on Curb Your Enthusiasm, 364 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: I played a character named Dean Weinstock, and the name 365 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: Weinstock was named after a comedian name Lotus Winstock who 366 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: has since passed away. But Lotus wine Stock, and you 367 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: can look her up, was Lenny Bruce's last girlfriend. Full 368 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: Circle fal Sir, I knew Lotus too, I knew her, 369 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: I knew I did chose with her. Holy smokes, I know, 370 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: I know, you know what this is a This is 371 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: a rare moment, I think for my co host and 372 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: I because we stopped for a second and just stared 373 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: at each other. Because that that is a perfect ending. 374 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: We've got to say that, I think ridiculous historians listening now, 375 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: if you enjoyed this episode a fraction as much as 376 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: we enjoyed this interview, then by god, we've we've done 377 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: something right. Yeah, seriously, I think if you want more 378 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: of this, you should check out Wayne's new podcast, which 379 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: goes even deeper into the history of stand up. It's 380 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: really really good and it's out there. Now. What are 381 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: you guys about two episodes deep? It's it's it's like 382 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: a mini series, right, it's six episodes and we're five 383 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: in so we're just about done just about the first season, 384 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: and then we might do deep dives in the second season. 385 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: But you know, we'll see that's awesome. We'd love to hear. 386 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: I'm also envious of a show that has a clock 387 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: on it. We just have to do this show forever 388 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: until we die. It's sort of a sisyphia and endeavor. 389 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: But thank you, by the way, this is gonna be 390 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: a two parter because this has been so much fun 391 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: and we already had like a nice even divide down 392 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: the middle between Lenny and UH and George UM, and 393 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: this has just been a delight. Man. Thank you so 394 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: much for coming on, and we really appreciate you diving 395 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: deep with us, Noel and Ben. I gotta say it 396 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: was a delight on this on this end as well. 397 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: And I'm just glad that the Danny Kay that we 398 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: gave Danny Kay is due. It's quite quite a comedian 399 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: and a big, big influence on George Garland. And maybe, 400 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we can just throw a Danny Kay 401 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: clip somewhere in this episode so you can get the 402 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: word I mean, he's loaded, loaded with patter songs in there, 403 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, yeah, everything you take taboo, take taboo, 404 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 1: take taboo, breathing his ticket typoo once up should meet me, David, 405 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: you did could be snaket tippoo snaket tippoo snaket tippoo. 406 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: With the sky so blinketty blue, it causes one to 407 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 1: say bless mankind, including my attackers. I'm incline. The feeling 408 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: is as a jolly wello. It's absolutely so. There you 409 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: have it, folks. Thank you so much for tuning in. 410 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: Thanks to our super producer Paul, Thanks for our super 411 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: producer Casey, and thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme. 412 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: Thanks to our research folk who we love dearly Eve's 413 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: Jeff Cote and Christopher Hasiotis, and most importantly, thank you 414 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: Ben and thank you Wayne. It has been the best. 415 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: Thank you Noel, and thank you very much. Wayne. We 416 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,719 Speaker 1: are not blowing smoke about the history of stand up 417 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: Go check out the show. I mean you will look 418 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: I I think I said it earlier. I'm officially going 419 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: to be insufferable at house parties are already pretty insufferable 420 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: at house party has been. That's what you know. That's 421 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: why only party in the yard you can say you 422 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: the next level. I'm gonna go inside. We'll see you 423 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: next time, folks. Chow