1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: I remember hearing the nine one call about this, and 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: I am not a crime reporter, so the thing that 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: happens sex is really really horrible. 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 3: And simple at the same time. 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 11 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 12 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 13 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 14 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Karen 18 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: kay Hoe is an award winning reporter who wrote an 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: article in twenty fifteen called Jennifer Pan's Revenge. Karen went 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: to high school with Jennifer Pan in the early two 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: thousands in a suburb of Toronto called Markham. They both 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: came from families that immigrated from East Asia, and they 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: both felt cultural pressures to succeed. But Karen and Jennifer 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: would take very different paths. And now Jennifer Pan is 25 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: in prison for murder. Karen lives in New York City, 26 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,559 Speaker 1: so you might hear some city sounds occasionally. 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: My name is Karen Hoe. My byline is Karen kay Hooe. 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: I am a business reporter by trade, and I'm currently 29 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: the senior reporter covering the business of sustainability at Business Insider. 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: It was a really large case in Canada at the time. 31 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 2: Initially I pitched it actually not as a teacher at all. 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 3: You know this from teaching journalism. 33 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: I pitched it as a one thousand word story very 34 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: specifically a moment prior to the trial, and I said, 35 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: I have this connection to this national case, and it's 36 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: really about re examining what you think know about people 37 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: from your youth, from high school, and what happens when 38 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: you find out that they are being charged with one 39 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: of the worst crimes imaginable. 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: The story is sort of about a surreal liar. 41 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: There have been examples in pop culture where people have 42 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: lied chronically, the risk of revealing the lie would be 43 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: greater than continuing it. 44 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: Tell me what is at the heart of this story? 45 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 3: Where do we start the story? 46 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 2: Really, at the heart of it is about Jennifer, this 47 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: woman I went to high school with. She was a 48 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: year older than me, and we had a lot of 49 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 2: things in common, including family backgrounds, the area in which 50 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,839 Speaker 2: we grew up. We also had a lot of overlapping 51 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: friends the high school that we went to. It encouraged 52 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: a lot of students to interact and befriend people in 53 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: other grades, and it was a lot less cliquey and stereotypical. 54 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: Pretty inclusive than it sounded like. 55 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: It advocated self directed learning, which is a lot closer 56 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: to say, a college experience where you got to choose 57 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: your classes. There was a lot of flexible ability in 58 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: how you spent your day to day time. 59 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: How do you intersect? How are your families similar? 60 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: Both of us come from families of deep immigrant experience. 61 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: Jennifer's parents are Vietnamese Chinese ethnicity, and both of my 62 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: parents are Chinese immigrants from Hong Kong. There are really 63 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: specific ideas regarding the roles of daughters in both of 64 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: these families, as well as expectations regarding academic excellence and 65 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: also family responsibility. When you immigrate and you give up everything, 66 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: including your family, sometimes your previous education, and you work 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: really really hard to establish a new life somewhere very 68 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: far away, there is an expectation that your children have 69 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: to do better to have a better life than the 70 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: life that you had, and that your struggle is worth it. 71 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: Part of the story is really about understanding that from 72 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: a personal perspective, having lived it myself. 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: And we're not saying this is all East Asian families 74 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: that come to North America. This is just yours experience 75 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: in this community. So let's talk about her family. 76 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 3: Her parents, they were Vietnamese refugees. 77 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: There is a significant diaspora within the Vietnamese community that 78 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: also speaks Cantonese. I had that in common because my 79 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 2: family also speaks Cantonese. Where they settled has a very 80 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: large Chinese population and an immigrant population that is primarily 81 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: East Asian. The high school was down the street from 82 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 2: a mall that had become known for basically providing a 83 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: lot of services for this ethnic community. So you could 84 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: go and get essentially all the items that you wanted groceries, electronics, clothing, 85 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: and so it has been incredibly successful at catering to 86 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 2: that community. But at the same time it can feel 87 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: really isolating and encouraged cultural ideas that are not necessarily positive. 88 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: So a common theme in this story will be societal 89 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: pressure and family pressure, particularly in Jennifer's case. Tell me 90 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: about Jennifer's parents and her family structure. What was it 91 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: like to be in her family? And I think that 92 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: it'd be interesting to hear the parallels to your family. 93 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: They had really you know, laborious working class jobs right 94 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: working in car parts manufacturers, doing manual labor and work 95 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: that is often not respective of the types of education 96 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 2: and prior experience they had before immigrating. They were classic 97 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: immigrants who tried to work really hard, saved bought homes, 98 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: were able to acquire nice cars, and tried to give 99 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: their children a better life through the expectation that they 100 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 2: would help pay for university, which is significantly cheaper in 101 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: Canada compared to the US, put them in a good school. 102 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: They were able to provide what they felt was a 103 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: life of stability and opportunity for their children, including things 104 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: like figure skating classes for Jennifer. 105 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: So their hope was what she was going to go 106 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: to university in Canada, and did they have an expectation 107 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: for a type of career that she might have afterward. 108 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: A lot of parents see the finish line not just 109 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: as completing high school and going to a really good 110 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 2: university like the University of Toronto in this particular case, 111 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: and a position that will be stable and well paying. 112 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: The stereotype is doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountants, or something in 113 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: the medical field, which I'm very familiar with. 114 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: They sent her to a nice high school. Did she 115 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: have siblings? 116 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: She did. She had a brother named Felix. 117 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: What do you remember about Jennifer. Did you guys interact 118 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: a lot or was it sort of fleeting and you 119 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: just sort of knew of each other. 120 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: There were definitely interactions in places like the band room. 121 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: I was much closer to our mutual friends in many cases, 122 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 2: or I had more interactions with our mutual friends than 123 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: with Jennifer herself. She never appeared to me as like 124 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: an unpopular person. 125 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: She was very social. 126 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: I have memories of where she sat in band practice, 127 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 2: and like the people she sat around, and she seemed 128 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: like a very outgoing social relatively upbeat person. I think 129 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 2: the challenge is because we all wore uniforms. It wasn't 130 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 2: like there was a particular style that I could point 131 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: to the way that she did. And she was very 132 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: tall and lift Asian teenager. I would not be surprised 133 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 2: if that was something that she learned from figure skating, 134 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: how to hold yourself. She didn't fulfill any sort of stereotype. 135 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: Just sort of your average high school student that you 136 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: went to school with. 137 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: The problem with that high school was like there wasn't 138 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,679 Speaker 2: a lot of average students. If you could play four 139 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: different instruments and you also performed at the school talent show, 140 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 2: and you happen to be taking a really intimidating series 141 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: of classes, you could still be the popular kid. There 142 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: wasn't especially what you see in pop culture regarding jocks 143 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: or the geeks or anything like that. It was in 144 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: some ways a real bubble of a place, especially when 145 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: I attended. It's changed a little bit since, but I 146 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: think it was a place in which being smart or 147 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: being creative was rewarded. 148 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: But it sounds challenging. 149 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a lot of students who did not 150 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: attend classes during the day and just goofed off, and 151 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: so they needed to attend summer school. That was a 152 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: frequent occurrence if you were bad at managing your time. 153 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: And then also there was often a big rush at 154 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: the end of the year to complete an enormous amount 155 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: of work and a relatively short amount of time. But 156 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: I think what it did teach people was plainly, what 157 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: was the reward of indulging in your own interests and 158 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: spending a lot of time in something that was really rewarding, 159 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: and then also finding other people to support you in 160 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: that endeavor. 161 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: So, if we're switching from Karen the high school student 162 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: to Karen the reporter, you have somebody that you're writing about, Jennifer, 163 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: and she's a high school student. She seems to be 164 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: doing well, relatively popular. When do things start going awry? 165 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: The pressures to succeed started in elementary school for her, 166 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: there is a valedictorian and salugatorian in eighth grade. What 167 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: people want academic excellence. And then also you know when 168 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: you're competing, right, Like she was a figure skater, and 169 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 2: so the idea of competing, performing excellence, working through injury 170 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: is something that many athletes know from a very very 171 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: young age. And also the disappointment on their parents' faces. 172 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 2: Especially if you've invested a lot of time and money 173 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: into a specific sport, then it's not just about having 174 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: fun anymore. It's about are you wasting everyone's time and money. 175 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: The expectations grow only further in high school. At the 176 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 2: high school, there were a lot of i would say, 177 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: very driven and ambitious students who would talk about taking 178 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: what we called the Big six all of the math 179 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 2: classes as well as the core science courses, which were chemistry, biology, 180 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: and physics, at a level at which that would make 181 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: them top applicants to engineering or other elite programs at universities, 182 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 2: so that they could be set up for a life 183 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 2: of success. And I remember hearing from other people what 184 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 2: that pressure was like pretty early, right, Like you had 185 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: to plan it out over the four years, and that's 186 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: a lot for like a thirteen or fourteen year old 187 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: to deal with. On top of relationships and friendships and 188 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: extracurriculars and all of that other stuff. 189 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: There was an expectation that she was going to take 190 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: a program and she didn't want to do it, or 191 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: she couldn't make the cut, and she started lying about 192 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: it is that what it sounds like yeah. 193 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: There had been also changes to her report cards and 194 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: then eventually to transcripts. 195 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 3: There was some photocopying. 196 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: This is pre photoshop. I think that's why there's photocopying 197 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: right right. 198 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: And then there is the thing that a lot of 199 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: people do when they're young and in high school and 200 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: in college, which is lying about relationships, lying about relationship 201 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 2: specifically that you think your parents will never approve of. 202 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: Now, is she in a certain type of relationships, specifically 203 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: with one person? What were the lies around relationships for her? 204 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 2: So the lies were primarily around her relationship with another 205 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: teenager and named Daniel Wong, who I knew very very well. 206 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: He was a trumpet player who is several years older 207 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: than both Jennifer and I, and he was really talented. 208 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: He was Filipino and Chinese. Jennifer and Daniel dated off 209 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: and on for several years, and that was a relationship 210 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 2: that her parents actively discouraged and did not like. 211 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: Why because he was older, or culture, or. 212 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: That Daniel had dealt marijuana, he associated himself with people 213 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: that they found unfavorable. And then also he was a 214 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: really gregarious, outgoing guy, but he didn't come across as 215 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: someone who is very focused or ambitious, like the kind 216 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 2: of person who would become a doctor or a lawyer 217 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: or an engineer. You know. He would volunteer and participate 218 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: in like marching band competitions, and he was a very 219 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 2: devoted trumpet player. But he didn't seem like someone who 220 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: was the stereotype of like the ideal future son in law. 221 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: He was like an older brother figure to me and 222 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: my younger sister. In fact, as I say in the story, 223 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 2: he came over to my house every day for a 224 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: year with two other guys and got to know my parents. 225 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: I think my mother would buy his favorite flavor of 226 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 2: Dorito's when he would go at the mercery store. 227 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: But it sounds like her parents just did not think 228 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: this was the perfect match. This is not who they 229 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: were hoping she would end up with, so they were 230 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: discouraging her. Were they forbidding it? 231 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 2: There is something that I know personally about, like a 232 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: parent doesn't have to say that they're disappointed in you 233 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: to communicate how deeply disappointed that there are in you, 234 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: or they did that they don't want you to do 235 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: something without an explicit kind of communication. And this is 236 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: something that I think is very culturally specific, there can 237 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: be emotional restriction and this like crushing feeling of disappointment 238 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 2: and shame that it weighs extra heavy when you understand 239 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: that she felt a deep loyalty and responsibility as the 240 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: older daughter. 241 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 3: There are a lot of. 242 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: Expectations, especially on Asian women, to take care of your parents, 243 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: to fulfill their expectations and make them happy. And then 244 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: on top of that, she lived with them for a 245 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: very long time. It shocks people sometimes when they find 246 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: out that it's incredibly normal for many children of East 247 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: Asian immigrants to live at home until basically they get married. 248 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: Like I moved out at twenty five, But when I 249 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 2: told my white friends, they were all like, oh, we 250 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: moved out at eighteen? 251 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 3: Or were you kicked out at eighteen? How did you 252 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 3: do that? 253 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: How did you live for so long into your adulthood 254 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 2: with your parents? 255 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: You just know what you know, right, this is just 256 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: what you've always been taught. 257 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: But with that understanding that you're going to have a 258 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: longer period of being in your literal parents' domicile for longer, 259 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 2: even into your adult life, that means it's incredibly difficult 260 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: to describe the pain of them threatening to take away 261 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: their financial and physical support as well as their emotional support. 262 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: Especially if you don't have a lot of close friends 263 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 2: that you can frash on their couch or explain the 264 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 2: situation that can become really heavy and determine a lot 265 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: of choices. You don't have an alternative or an outlet. 266 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: As a teenager, you're literally taught this horrific grind like lifestyle, 267 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 2: which is to focus entirely on academics, no fun, right like, 268 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: no alternatives. What is the metaphor it it's all stick 269 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 2: and no carrot, and so on top of that, there 270 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: was no reward at the end of the tunnel, so 271 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: I say in the story, midway through grade nine, she 272 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: was averaging seventy percent in all subjects with the exception 273 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: of music, and so she used old report cards, scissors, 274 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: glew in a photocopier to create a new forged report 275 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: card with straight a's because universities didn't consider marks from 276 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: grade nine and ten for admission. She told herself it 277 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: wasn't a big deal. So that's when the soft lying started, 278 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: then the rationale for essentially deceiving her parents, and then 279 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: throughout high school, her parents picked her up from school 280 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: at the end of every day, monitor her air extracurricular activities, 281 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: and forbade her from attending dances which her father considered unproductive. 282 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: Parties were also off. 283 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 2: Limits, and boyfriends were verboten until after university, and so 284 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: when Jennifer was permitted to attend a sleepover at a 285 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: friend's house, her parents dropped her off late at night 286 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: and picked her up. 287 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 3: Early the following morning. 288 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: So by age twenty two, she had never gone to 289 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: a club, been drunk, or visited a friend's cottage, or 290 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: gone on in vacation without her family. So I say, 291 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: you know, I related a lot to her, because my 292 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: father specifically had really high expectations for me to be 293 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: at the top of my class, especially in math. 294 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 3: And science, to be obedient, and to. 295 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: Be exemplary in a lot of different ways. And I 296 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: said very plainly that I felt like he wanted a 297 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: child who was also like a trophy, someone he could 298 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: brag about. And I suspected that the achievements of his 299 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: siblings and their children made him feel insecure, and he 300 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: wanted my accomplishments to match theirs, And so at least 301 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: throughout high school and parts of university, I felt like 302 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: a hamster on a wheel, sprinting to meet some sort 303 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: of expectation that was solely determined by him, that was 304 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: always just out of reach. But he didn't always communicate 305 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: them to me either, And in my house, hugs were 306 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: a rarity, and birthday parties and gifts from Santa ceased 307 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: around age nine. Ironically, when I was a kid, I 308 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: excelled at figure skinning and math. But yeah, my father 309 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: almost never complimented me, even when I excelled. 310 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you really did relate to Jennifer. So, 311 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: going back to her story, did she end up graduating 312 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: from high school? 313 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: Going back to what we were talking about, which is 314 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: the extent of her lying, she had continued to doctor 315 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: her report cards throughout high school, and she did receive 316 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: early acceptance to a Canadian university, but because she failed 317 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: calculus in her final year, she wasn't able to graduate 318 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: If she lied and said that she'd be starting at 319 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: Ryerson in the fall, she sent her plan to her 320 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: parents was to do two years of science and then 321 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: transfer over to the University of Toronto's pharmacology program, which 322 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: was her father's ambition and hope for her and her 323 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: father was so delighted that he bought her a laptop. 324 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: And then she collected use biology and physics textbooks and 325 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: bought school supplies and actually pretended to attend like orientation, 326 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: and she even doctored papers stating that she was receiving 327 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: alone and convinced her father that she'd won a scholarship 328 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: to help offset the cost of tuition. And then she 329 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: pantomized going to classes while still living at home in 330 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: downtown Toronto. And then she would go to public libraries 331 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: where she would research on the web what she thought 332 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: were relevant studies, fill her books with notes, and then 333 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: she would spend her free time at cafes or visiting 334 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: Daniel where he was taking classes at another Toronto area university. 335 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: And her parents never picked up on this for a while. 336 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: Right her dad would ask her about her studies, and 337 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: then her mother would tell him not to interfere. To 338 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: keep up the charade, she would start lying to her 339 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: friends too. 340 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: She lied to her friends. 341 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: She did, and she built on the lies by telling 342 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 2: one friend falsely that her dad had hired a private 343 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: investigator to follow her. But after two years of these lies, 344 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: her dad asked her if she was still planning to 345 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 2: switch to the University of Toronto, and she said yes, 346 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: that she had been accepted. Of course, this made her 347 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 2: parents super happy, and so she suggested moving in with 348 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: a friend for a couple of nights a week to 349 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 2: reduce the commute that she was taking. But instead of 350 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: staying with that friend, she was actually staying with Daniel 351 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: and his family in another suburb of Toronto. Then she 352 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: started lying to his parents as well, telling them that 353 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: her parents were okay with the arrangement, and then brushing 354 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 2: off their request to meet Jennifer's parents over a dim sum. 355 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: How can you even keep up with all of those lies? 356 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 2: Well, they did it for another two years. When she 357 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: was theoretically supposed to graduate, Jennifer and Daniel hired someone 358 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: they found online to create a fake trans full of 359 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: top grades. Wow. And then for the ceremony, Jennifer told 360 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: her parents that meant there weren't enough seats, and she 361 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: gave her ticket to a friend so that her parents 362 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: couldn't attend. 363 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 3: But the way that it all fell apart is that. 364 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: Then it entered the real world, which was she told 365 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: her parents about a place that she was volunteering, which 366 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: I knew well because my sister. 367 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 3: Had volunteered there too. 368 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: What was it? 369 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: It was this famous children's hospital in Canada called the 370 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: Hospital for Sick Children known as Sick Kids. For Jennifer 371 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 2: saying that she was volunteering at the blood testing lab 372 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: there and saying that she needs to volunteer for night 373 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: shifts on Fridays and weekends. 374 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 3: It fell apart because she. 375 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: Didn't have something that my sister had, which was like 376 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: a key card or a uniform. One time Jennifer's parents 377 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: tried to drop her off, her mom tried to follow 378 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 2: her in and see how she was going. Jennifer realized 379 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 2: that she was being followed by her mother, and so 380 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 2: she hid in the waiting area of the er until 381 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: they left. And then her parents also called the next 382 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: morning to the friend that she was supposedly staying with. 383 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: That friend told the truth, which was that Jennifer wasn't there. 384 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: When she finally got home, her father confronted her and 385 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: then that's when she confessed. 386 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: To not being a volunteer. And that's it. 387 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 3: Or to Daniel, she confessed a lot. 388 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 2: She didn't volunteer at the famous children's hospital. She had 389 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: never been in the University of Toronto's pharmacology program that 390 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: she had been staying at Daniel's, but she didn't tell 391 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: them that she had actually never graduated high school and 392 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: that she hadn't attended the other Canadian university for the 393 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: first two years. Her parents were incredibly upset, to the 394 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 2: point where her mother cried. Her father was so upset 395 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 2: that he told her to get out and never come back, 396 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: but her mother convinced him to let Jennifer stay, and 397 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 2: so they took away her cell phone and laptop and 398 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: she was only permitted to use them in their presence 399 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: and had to endure surprise checks of her messages. And 400 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 2: they also forbade her from seeing Daniel. 401 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: And how old is she when this happens, early twenties. Yeah, 402 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: so they say no to Daniel. I'm sure they're furious 403 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: because this has been going on for years. 404 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 3: Because it confirms their suspicions of him. 405 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: What is the next big thing for you? 406 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 3: I think it's how it escalates. 407 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: She felt really devoted to Daniel and their secretive romance, 408 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: so even after the exposure of a lot of her lies, 409 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: she continues to deceive her parents, even after she's lost 410 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: their trust. So she literally arranges her blankets to look 411 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 2: like she's asleep and then sneaks out to Daniel's house. 412 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: The lie is exposed because she had her mother's wallet, 413 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 2: and so in the morning, her mother goes into a 414 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: room and discovers that Jennifer was gone, and. 415 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 3: They still want her to apply to college, right. 416 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 2: They wanted her to become a pharmacy lab technician or 417 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 2: a nurse, and their only stipulation is, of course, that 418 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: she cuts off all contact with Daniel. And at this point, 419 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: like you said, she's twenty four and still sneaking around, 420 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 2: and Daniel, being slightly older than her, is tired and 421 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 2: breaks up with her, making her really heartbroken. So then 422 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 2: that I think is a really key moment in which 423 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: her desperation increases. 424 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: How does that manifest itself, this desperation that she's feeling. 425 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: What's the next for her? 426 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: Well, she finds out that Daniel is seeing a new 427 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: person named Christine, and an attempt to win back his attention, 428 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: she makes an even more bizarre story, which is that 429 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: she tells Daniel that a man had knocked on her 430 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 2: door and flash would look. 431 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: Like a police badge. 432 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: When she opened the door, a group of men rushed in, 433 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 2: overpowered her and gang raped her in the foyer of 434 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 2: her house, and then a few days later, she says 435 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 2: that she received a bullet in an envelope in her mailbox, 436 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 2: and she said that both instances were warnings from Christine 437 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: to leave Daniel alone. 438 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: So what is Daniel's reaction to this story? Did he 439 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: break up with Christine? Do you know? 440 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 3: No? Okay, he doesn't break up with Christine. 441 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 2: But real issue is that he continues to communicate with 442 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 2: Jennifer in a way that doesn't help her move on. 443 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 2: There's something very human about being pulled in to the 444 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: feeling of being important to someone else, and even when 445 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 2: that relationship isn't healthy. At this point, it gets really 446 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: bad because they were still exchanging daily text messages that 447 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: were pretty flirty, related to the point where they crafted 448 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 2: the plan that would lead to the erfict incident that 449 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 2: put her in the news in the first place. 450 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: Okay, so what was the plan? What were they discussing? 451 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: They were going to hire people to kill Jennifer's parents 452 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: to collect the estate because Jennifer's portion alone would total 453 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 2: about half a million dollars and live together freed from 454 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 2: their disdain and meddling. These Asian immigrant families are incredibly 455 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: savings minded. Often you have to help other families out 456 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: right back home cash quite frankly, for like medical services. 457 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 2: There's things like gifts for weddings, saving especially when you 458 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: come over with nothing. My mother immigrated to Canada with 459 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 2: one hundred dollars in her pocket. It is a huge 460 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: priority among immigrant families. 461 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: The plan for Daniel and for Jennifer was they were 462 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: going to hire some hitman to kill her parents, and 463 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: then she and her brother presumably who didn't know anything 464 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: about this, would end up splitting the estate. 465 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: Right And a really important thing was Daniel connected Jennifer 466 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: to the acquaintances that had a price for executing this plan. 467 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 2: Jennifer contacts Lenford Crawford and asked what the going rate was. 468 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 2: Crawford said it was twenty thousand dollars, but offers a 469 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 2: friend's discount via Daniel for ten thousand dollars. Daniel enables 470 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 2: the communication by giving Jennifer a spare iPhone and some 471 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: card so that she could isolate the primearly good conversations 472 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 2: to that phone and use her phone for everything else. 473 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: There's even a scouting mission on Halloween under the distraction 474 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: of all the kids streaming up and down the street. 475 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 2: So two days after Halloween that year, Daniel texts Jennifer 476 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: by saying that he felt as strongly about Christine as 477 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 2: she did about him. 478 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming Jennifer did not like this. 479 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: She actually tells Daniel that he should call it off. 480 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 2: He replies that I thought you wanted this for yourself. 481 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 3: She's like, I do, but I have nowhere to go. 482 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: And then the next day Daniel says, you know, I 483 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: did everything and lined it up for you, And it 484 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: basically seems like Daniel out of the arrangement. But then 485 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: later that day they literally go back to their old 486 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: ways and start texting and flirting each other. This entire 487 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 2: exchange becomes really really important later on in terms of 488 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: the level of involvement both of them have in the plan. 489 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: Over the next couple of days, there is a lot 490 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: of text messaging between Lentford, Jennifer, and Daniel regarding when 491 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 2: it will be the right time for the plan to 492 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 2: go forward. 493 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: It's really hard. 494 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: I remember hearing the nine one one call about this, 495 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: and I am not a crime reporter, so the thing 496 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 2: that happens sex is. 497 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 3: Really really horrible and simple. 498 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: At the same time, Jennifer watches Gossip Girl and John 499 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: and Kate Plas eight In her room, her dad is 500 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: watching Vietnamese news before. 501 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 3: Going to bed. 502 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: Early around a thirty, her mother is outline dancing with 503 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 2: a friend and cousin, and her younger brother is away 504 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: from home studying engineering at a prestigious university calledc Master. 505 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: Around nine thirty, her mother comes home from her line 506 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 2: dancing class, changes into pajamas, and then soaks her feet 507 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: in front of the TV on the metf very simple 508 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: domestic activities, But shortly after that, at nine thirty five, 509 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 2: a man named David Milvigannon, who is a friend of 510 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 2: Lanford Crawford's, calls Jennifer and they speak for nearly two minutes, 511 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: and then Jennifer goes downstairs to say good night to 512 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: her mother, But then she later admits that she also 513 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: unlocks the front door, and she also retracts this particular statement. 514 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: So just after ten o'clock, around ten oh two, a 515 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: light in the upstairs study is turned on, allegedly a 516 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: signal to the intruders, and a minute later it's turned off, 517 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: and at ten oh five David calls again. He and 518 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: Jennifer speak for three and a half minutes and then 519 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 2: moments later, Lanford, David, and a third man named Eric 520 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 2: Carty walk through the front door, all carrying guns. 521 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: We're talking with reporter Karen Ka Hooe, who is discussing 522 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: Jennifer Pan's plan to have her parents murdered by hitman 523 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: in twenty ten. She wants to collect her inheritance and 524 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: live with her boyfriend Daniel. Jennifer has led the killers 525 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: inside her parents' house in the middle of the night. 526 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: They carry guns as they walk through the door, searching 527 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: for Jennifer's mother and father. 528 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 2: One of them points their gun at Jennifer's mother, while 529 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: another person runs upstairs, shoved a gun in Jennifer's dad's 530 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: face and directs him out of bed, down the stairs 531 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 2: and into the living room upstairs. Eric confronts Jennifer outside 532 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: of her bedroom door. According to Jennifer, Eric ties her 533 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: arms behind her using a shoelace, directs her back inside, 534 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: where she hands over approximately twenty five hundred dollars in 535 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: Canadian cash, and then gets her to her parents' bedroom, 536 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: where he locates eleven hundred dollars in US dollars in 537 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: her mother's night stand, and then finally to the kitchen 538 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: to search for her mother's wallet, and the parents have 539 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 2: a lot of questions. Her mother asked her father how 540 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: did they enter the house, and her father's like, I 541 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 2: don't know. I was sleeping, and they ask about where 542 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: the money is in the house, and Jennifer's father is 543 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 2: actually pistol whipped on the back of his head, and 544 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 2: this causes Jennifer's mother to begin weeping, Please don't hurt 545 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: their daughter. The really hard part is Jennifer calls nine 546 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: one O one after they shoot her father twice, once 547 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: in the shoulder and then once in the face, and 548 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 2: then they shoot her mother three times in the head, 549 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: killing her instantly. This is after Eric and David and 550 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: Landford take the couple to the basement and cover their 551 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: heads with blankets and so On the tape, she says, 552 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 2: help me, please, I need help, and she says, I 553 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: don't know where my parents are. The astonishing thing about 554 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 2: the nine one one call is at the thirty four 555 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 2: second mark, you can actually hear her father moaning in 556 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: the background because he had awoken despite being shot in 557 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 2: the head and was covered in blood with his dead 558 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: wife's body next him, and he was able to somehow 559 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 2: crawl up the stairs to the main floor, and he 560 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 2: stumbled outside screaming wildly and encountered a neighbor who was 561 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: about to leave for work, and the neighbor also called 562 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: nine one one, and so the police and an ambulance 563 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 2: arrived at the scene pretty quickly, and then he was 564 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: rushed to hospital and then airlifted to a specialized medical facility. 565 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: Did he survive? 566 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: He did? 567 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 4: Wow? 568 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: And that it becomes really really important later in the case. 569 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: Does he remember yeah? Wow? So okay, police come and 570 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: they started interviewing her, and. 571 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: So she makes several statements to the police and they're 572 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: really long. The interviewer just before three am, and then 573 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 2: two days later she gives a second statement. The police 574 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: just have so many questions, like the family had luxury 575 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: vehicles like Alexis, and the keys were right near the door, 576 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: but the intruders didn't take the keys to the car. 577 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: Basically none of the telltale signs of Burglar's robbers coming 578 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: in right. 579 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 2: And also the fact that she basically escapes and harp 580 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: compared to her parents. So her father was in a 581 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: three DA induced coma, but then wakes up with pretty 582 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: serious injuries. Right, he has a broken bone near his eye, 583 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: like bullet fragments lodged in his face that the doctors 584 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: couldn't remove, and a shatter neck bone because the bullet 585 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: had grazed the artery. He remembers, including really important details 586 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: that contradict her account to the police, which is that 587 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: he recalls seeing his daughter chatting softly like a friend 588 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: with one of the intruders and her arms were not 589 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: tied behind her back while she was led around the 590 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: house boy, and so that causes the police to bring 591 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: Jennifer in for a third interview. The detective said that 592 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: he knew that she was involved in the crime, and 593 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 2: that he knew that she had lied to him, and 594 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 2: said that it was in her best interest to fess up, 595 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: and Jennifer hunched over sobbing, repeatedly asked what happens to me? 596 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: And so then over the next four hours, her explanation 597 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: is beyond bizarre, which is that the attack had been 598 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 2: an elaborate plan to commit suicide gone horribly wrong. She'd 599 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: given up on life but couldn't manage to kill herself, 600 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: so she hired Lenford, whose name she claimed that she 601 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: didn't know, and then in September, her relationship with her 602 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: father had suddenly improved and she decided to call off 603 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: the hit, but somehow Wires had gotten cross and then 604 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: ended up killing her parents instead of her. 605 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: It's a terrible lie. 606 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 3: Well, the police rest. 607 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: To her on the spot, so they didn't believe her either. 608 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: These three guys, does it take long to figure out 609 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: who they are? 610 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: Because of analysis of cell phone calls and text messages. 611 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: In the spring, you know, they charged Daniel, Eric Lenford 612 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: and David with first degree murder, attempted murder and conspiracy 613 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: to commit Wow. 614 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: So what is the conclusion of this case? Does everybody 615 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: get jail time? 616 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: I'm assuming yeah, after one of the longest trials. 617 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: The trial begins on March nineteenth and sentencing doesn't happen 618 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 2: until I think January of. 619 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 3: The next year. 620 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: What made it so long. 621 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: There's the fact that there's so many people involved. There's 622 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of evidence, the text messages, there's the 623 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: phone calls, there's the extensive relationship between Jennifer and. 624 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: Daniel, exchange of money. I'm assuming they were trying to 625 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: figure out where that ten thousand dollars came from and 626 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: tracing that right. 627 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 2: There was a lot of interest, and then there was 628 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: the fact that they wanted to make sure that there 629 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: was concern also regarding mental health. I think there was 630 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: always a concern that there could be a claim that 631 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: this was done when someone is not psychologically sound. And 632 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 2: then there's also the fact that the deception took place 633 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 2: over such a long period of time, and so gathering 634 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: those details takes a lot of work. For the charge 635 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: of first degree murder alone, Jennifer received an automic life 636 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: sentence with no chance of parole for twenty five years, 637 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 2: and then for the attempted murder of her father, she 638 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: received another sentence of life to be sarved concurrently, and 639 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 2: that was the same sentence for Daniel and two of 640 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 2: the people who carried out the hit, and the third person, 641 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: his lawyer, actually felt ill during the trial and his 642 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 2: trial was protponed to twenty sixteen. And in addition to 643 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: those sentences, there was two noncommunication orders between the five defendants, 644 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: as well as one between Jennifer and her family at 645 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 2: her father and brother's. 646 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 3: Request, has she spoken to anybody For the first two. 647 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: Years it was really difficult because there was the hope 648 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: of the appeal that they would file for an appeal, 649 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: and so there was no incentive for them to talk 650 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 2: to anyone, including people like me or other people interested 651 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: in profiling the story. There was a long term burden, 652 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: which was that Jennifer's dad is now unable to work 653 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 2: due to his injuries, suffer as anxiety attacks, insomnia, and nightmares. 654 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 2: When he sleeps, he suffers constant pain and has given 655 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 2: up working on the cars or listening to music since 656 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: none of those activities bring him any joy anymore, and 657 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: he can't bear to be in the house anymore. 658 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 3: So he lives with relatives nearby. 659 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: And the younger brother, Felix, after moving to the East 660 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: coast of Canada to find work with a private technology company, 661 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 2: suffers from depression as become closed off, and the house 662 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: essentially became really difficult to sell right because no one 663 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 2: wants to buy it. And both of these were details 664 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: in their impact statements. I think it was really heartbreaking 665 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 2: to read that when Jennifer's dad said that he lost 666 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 2: his wife, he also lost his daughter at the same time. 667 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 2: He didn't feel like he had a family anymore, and 668 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: he doesn't feel lucky to be alive at all. 669 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 3: He feels like he's dead too. There is a sort 670 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 3: of grief. 671 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: For re examining someone that you think you know really well. 672 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: With Daniel, who I originally centered my pitch on because 673 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: he tutored my sister, he spoke Cantonese to my parents, 674 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: made food at my house. 675 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: You would have never thought he was capable of this. 676 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: It makes you re examine what you think it is 677 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: to know somebody and to be really close. That is 678 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: really unmooring and speaks to how much people can change 679 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 2: in a very short amount of time or even there 680 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 2: comes a time when people go through a lot of 681 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: betrayals and you second guess how well you think you 682 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: know somebody. 683 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: Are there any lessons learned out of the story, It's complicated. 684 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: I had another journalist tell me that when he read 685 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: my story that it made him rethink the way that 686 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 2: he parented his daughter, and that has stuck with me 687 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,239 Speaker 2: for a really long time. Unfortunately, the story, people are 688 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 2: really emotional about it, and so I was really nervous 689 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 2: about doing this interview because I've been accused in the 690 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: past of exploiting it for my own professional gain, and 691 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 2: I did it basically two years on spec I don't 692 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: think I've made money after I did it like. I 693 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: turned down a book deal. There was another book written 694 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: about it. There have been a lot of documentaries or 695 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: made for TV adaptations and things like that. I wanted 696 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: to tell the version of the story that I knew 697 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: to be true, which was that it wasn't a stereotype 698 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: of someone who could commit this horrific experience. I think 699 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: when we talk about journalism, we talk about changing laws 700 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: or exposing inequities. At the heart of it was a 701 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: really horrific crime. But I wanted to explain how I 702 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,439 Speaker 2: feel a level of empathy for Jennifer and Daniel from 703 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 2: knowing them as people. They were not stereotypes. They were 704 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: not what we often think of when we think of 705 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 2: really horrific crimes. It's incredibly common, and it's not just 706 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: East Asian kids who feel the toxicity of really crushing expectations. 707 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 2: I'm reading more and more about kids of affluent parents 708 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: who have feeled difficulty with anxiety and depression or substance 709 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 2: abuse because they feel trapped in their parents' expectations for 710 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 2: excellence or success financially or academically. I'm also really curious 711 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 2: about what it says about trust and communication. I'm very 712 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 2: lucky to still be very close with my mother and 713 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 2: my sister. I communicate with a lot. I think the 714 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 2: lessons because I see discussed a lot among parents. 715 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 3: It's just how do you build. 716 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 2: A way for your kids to communicate with you so 717 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: that they trust you and feel that they can be 718 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: honest with you about their struggle so they don't feel 719 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 2: they need to lie or hide about their ambitions and 720 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 2: their dreams or what's making their life difficult. I don't 721 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 2: know if I will have kids, but it's a series 722 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: of choices that parents make. 723 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 3: It builds over time. I end the story by saying. 724 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: That I didn't feel enjoyment writing it at all. I 725 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 2: think it's really important to say that I did it 726 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 2: very specifically because I felt like I had a window 727 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 2: into an experience and a really challenging relationship between a 728 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 2: father and a daughter that I have more in common 729 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 2: with than most people would be able to understand. When 730 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: I look back, there were very small but important moments 731 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: that separated me from the choices Jennifer made. 732 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 733 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 4: A policeman, she's smoke coming out of the back of 734 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:04,919 Speaker 4: the strip mall. 735 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: It's pastoral of it. 736 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 4: And everything's closed, everything's dark, and he found out it 737 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 4: was the yogurt job. He calls the fire department and 738 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 4: one of the fireman trips over something and he nudges 739 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 4: the guy next to him and points down and says, is. 740 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: That a foot? If you love historical true crime, please 741 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 1: check out my books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. 742 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right tenfold War Media production. 743 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: Alexis and Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our 744 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: sound designer. Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis 745 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: Heath does the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and 746 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: ILSA Brink designed a website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, 747 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel follow Wicked Words on Instagram and 748 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 749 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 750 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you 751 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 752 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 753 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com, Listen, subscribe and 754 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 755 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.