Speaker 1: From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and
Speaker 1: succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full
Speaker 1: potential of your people so you can take your business
Speaker 1: where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn
Speaker 1: Ferry dot com slash up here. A couple of obvious
Speaker 1: facts about losing your job. It cuts you off from
Speaker 1: a source of income, It interrupts your work history, It
Speaker 1: makes it harder for you to find a new job.
Speaker 1: These are devastating effects. We're not going to talk about
Speaker 1: them today. We're going to talk about the emotional side
Speaker 1: of getting laid off. You're listening to game Plan. I'm
Speaker 1: Sam Grobart. I am a writer at Bloomberg business Week magazine,
Speaker 1: and I'm Rebecca Greenfield. I'm a reporter a Bloomberg where
Speaker 1: I cover workplace culture and I want to start off
Speaker 1: with a little bit of history and talk about the
Speaker 1: word layoff. I looked it up and the online Etymology
Speaker 1: Dictionary says that vas seasonal labor with periodic inactivity. The
Speaker 1: word layoff came to have a sense of temporary release
Speaker 1: from employment, but by the sixties was being used somewhat
Speaker 1: euphemistically for permanent releases. Of masses of workers. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: seems to be this distinction nowadays between getting laid off
Speaker 1: and getting fired. Right, fired sounds like four cause, whereas
Speaker 1: getting laid off is more of a cost cutting move.
Speaker 1: But they both result in the same thing. You don't
Speaker 1: have a job anymore. Yeah, It's like getting laid off
Speaker 1: is supposed to sound like this nice thing where you're
Speaker 1: supposed to feel better because you didn't do anything wrong, right,
Speaker 1: and yet you were picked as opposed to other people
Speaker 1: who may still be there. Right. And companies have even
Speaker 1: moved away from the word laoff to use even more
Speaker 1: euphemistic terms to make people feel better about their plate.
Speaker 1: Like I saw the other day to tweet saying that
Speaker 1: Bridgewater isn't laying off employees, it's quote renovated in the company. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're going to have this great new caesar Stone countertop
Speaker 1: in their kitchen after they renovate. Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean they're they're renovating the company in a way that
Speaker 1: will be no room for you. Right, they're redoing the
Speaker 1: kitchen and getting rid of your bedroom. Basically we're selling
Speaker 1: your bedroom, honey. I remember in the nineties companies would
Speaker 1: talk about not so much downsizing, but right sizing, See
Speaker 1: it's all going to be okay. Is that supposed to
Speaker 1: make you feel better? I think it just makes you
Speaker 1: feel worse. And I think companies know that, and that's
Speaker 1: you know, euphemism exist for a reason. They are there
Speaker 1: to cover up something, and what they're covering up is
Speaker 1: something very harsh and very dramatic. And we're actually going
Speaker 1: to talk to someone who has recently gone through that.
Speaker 1: Brittany Ashley used to work at BuzzFeed. She doesn't anymore,
Speaker 1: and she has very courageously agreed to sit with us
Speaker 1: today and talk about the experience of getting booted. Hello,
Speaker 1: brittanys in good are you? I'm well, thank you? Why
Speaker 1: don't if you don't mind, um, can you kind of
Speaker 1: walk us through what happened? So? I worked at a
Speaker 1: company that I wrote a lot of videos for and
Speaker 1: acted in videos and whatnot. When I started with it,
Speaker 1: it was a newer company. They were still figuring out,
Speaker 1: you know, rules, regulations, what they allow employees to do.
Speaker 1: And so I acted in something that I suppose I
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to that it was on the weekend, and
Speaker 1: it's very unclear whether or not that was against the rules.
Speaker 1: Because other people did that and whatnot. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: got brought up to me right after a trailer for
Speaker 1: that series came out. I got brought up to me
Speaker 1: by a manager and they asked me questions about it,
Speaker 1: and I kind of thought I was in the clear,
Speaker 1: Like I talked to some of my co workers and
Speaker 1: they're like, you're fine, Like they're not going to fire you.
Speaker 1: That would be insane, and then zoom passed to Three
Speaker 1: weeks later, I get called and to a meeting at
Speaker 1: five thirty pm on a Thursday, and I get canned.
Speaker 1: So it was kind of it was definitely shocking and
Speaker 1: I and that's the only job I've ever been fired from,
Speaker 1: and to be fired from a creative job that you've
Speaker 1: been working out for so long was kind of like
Speaker 1: a wet just like tears come out and you're like,
Speaker 1: what do I have to do? And then you like
Speaker 1: feel weird and pathetic and sad. If you can remember,
Speaker 1: what was the first thing you did after you were fired?
Speaker 1: I mean, you are in that meeting room, yes, and
Speaker 1: you walk out? So what happens? So they fired me
Speaker 1: and one other person at the exact same time for
Speaker 1: the exact same reason because we're both in it, and
Speaker 1: so a lot of it was like trying to take
Speaker 1: care of this person who was breaking down next to me,
Speaker 1: and I was kind of the more stoic one, which
Speaker 1: was a really interesting experience. We fired at the same
Speaker 1: time as someone else, Um, so you both were in
Speaker 1: the room together. Yeah, it was it was the HR woman,
Speaker 1: It was yeah, Yeah, it was an HR woman who
Speaker 1: I had never met until that day. And then it
Speaker 1: was someone kind of higher up who I've maybe had
Speaker 1: like one or two conversations with. And then yeah, and
Speaker 1: then me and my coworker who were both fired at
Speaker 1: the same time. So my instant thing was just to
Speaker 1: take care of this other person because she was like
Speaker 1: just breaking down, like balling, crying because that job was
Speaker 1: like her dream job and it wasn't my dream job.
Speaker 1: It just like it was really brutal to get fired
Speaker 1: and to put your time into something that you know
Speaker 1: gets taken away so quickly. But the interesting thing is
Speaker 1: that they held us in that room. So after we
Speaker 1: were told that we were getting fired, the HR woman
Speaker 1: was like, actually give me like five minutes, I'll be
Speaker 1: right back, and they left the room and it was
Speaker 1: just me and that other coworker sounds like a psychology experiment. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I like I was looking around for like cameras. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh god, what are they doing. You have
Speaker 1: passed the exactly Honestly that was going through my mind
Speaker 1: of like I didn't want to like trash talk the
Speaker 1: company or be like yeah, whatever, fuck them. I like
Speaker 1: didn't say anything because I was like, is this some
Speaker 1: weird like manipulation scheme. I just assumed that they were
Speaker 1: like going through my desk and like taking you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, like taking all my ship or like
Speaker 1: packing it up, or like wiping my computer. I just
Speaker 1: assumed the worst. But yeah, So they held us in
Speaker 1: there for like twenty minutes, and my coworker had a
Speaker 1: phone on her, but I didn't bring anything with me.
Speaker 1: I didn't think I was getting fired. I thought I
Speaker 1: was going to be told to not do it again. Um.
Speaker 1: And so she had her phone on her and she
Speaker 1: was like texting a bunch of people that we worked
Speaker 1: with saying what happened. And I was just like phoneless
Speaker 1: and I had nothing, and um, as soon as she
Speaker 1: came back and she was like, oh, yeah, by the way,
Speaker 1: you guys are still fired, Like I think it was
Speaker 1: like some weird It was some weird thing where like
Speaker 1: she wanted us to feel like she was going to
Speaker 1: change her mind at some point. But then I found
Speaker 1: out later that she went upstairs to tell there was
Speaker 1: like a whole manager meeting where she told everyone that
Speaker 1: we got fired, and it was like this big deal.
Speaker 1: It was really weird. And then she came back down
Speaker 1: and was like, yeah, unfortunately you're still terminated it and
Speaker 1: I was like okay, and then yeah, then I walked
Speaker 1: to my desk and started to clean out my desk
Speaker 1: and was crying. And the girl that I was casually
Speaker 1: seeing at the time was there. And that's also a
Speaker 1: really weird thing to happen when you're like casually dating
Speaker 1: someone that you work with then you get fired. Uh,
Speaker 1: there was a whole another level that we did not consider. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and um, my writing partner was right across from me,
Speaker 1: and I told him that I got fired, and it
Speaker 1: was so weird, Like the floor was just silent, and um,
Speaker 1: I was crying and other people were crying because it
Speaker 1: was not necessarily like, oh my god, we lost Brittany,
Speaker 1: like she's dying, but it was more like, oh, this
Speaker 1: could happen to us at literally any moment, because we
Speaker 1: thought that you were safe, because you were someone that
Speaker 1: has paved the way for a lot of people that
Speaker 1: have worked at this company, because you were kind of
Speaker 1: one of the original creators here, Brittany, like you, I
Speaker 1: I too have been fired. Oh yeah, yeah, I felt
Speaker 1: like and in the years since that, I have a
Speaker 1: different kind of under standing of the relationship between an
Speaker 1: employee and an employer. And that's not to say I
Speaker 1: have worked at some really great places since then, and
Speaker 1: I you know, I genuinely really like working here now.
Speaker 1: But no matter how much I like my job or
Speaker 1: feel that the company I work for, you know, is
Speaker 1: a good place to be, I still now have this
Speaker 1: little piece of black coal in my brain that it's like,
Speaker 1: you can never ever really trust them, right, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not because it's not a human being. It's a corporation
Speaker 1: and ultimately they're kind of out for what's the best
Speaker 1: for their business. Yeah. It's crazy to hear you tell
Speaker 1: the story of the day you got fired and how
Speaker 1: quickly the relationship to the company changed, like oh god, yeah,
Speaker 1: and how it felt really weird to you, And I
Speaker 1: imagine it feels really weird it's really weird, and it
Speaker 1: continues to be very weird because is a lot of
Speaker 1: people that I'm friends with still work there. Obviously, it's
Speaker 1: one of those companies that's like any time you go
Speaker 1: into any social media, it's just like all over the place.
Speaker 1: And then to like go through your clothes and you
Speaker 1: have so many clothes with that label on it, and
Speaker 1: you're just like, I feel like I can't wear these anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, you know, like except yeah, your your girlfriend
Speaker 1: is a large corporate entity that yeah. Yeah. Another thing
Speaker 1: that struck me about your story was even though you
Speaker 1: you knew you did something wrong a little bit and
Speaker 1: you just even said that wasn't your dream job, just
Speaker 1: the act of getting fired seems really painful, no matter
Speaker 1: what the situation is. Like you said you were just crying.
Speaker 1: I imagine I would just immediately burst into yours in
Speaker 1: this particular situation too. Obviously it was kind of public,
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm a writer, so I take things personally,
Speaker 1: and to be fired from a creative job that you
Speaker 1: gave so much of your writing to and you wrote
Speaker 1: about so many personal topics, it feels like it makes
Speaker 1: you feel kind of dispensable as a person and as
Speaker 1: a writer, like creatively, it really messed me up for
Speaker 1: for I mean, it's still kind of messing me up,
Speaker 1: to be honest, but and it's given me quite a
Speaker 1: bit of writer's block because it's like, welly am I
Speaker 1: writing this anyways, like if it's just gonna if someone's
Speaker 1: just gonna fire me, and it's a weird It definitely
Speaker 1: does feel like a breakup in a way where it's
Speaker 1: like you've been cheated on before, been broken up with
Speaker 1: before something, and then you just take it out on
Speaker 1: everyone else for the next like two years. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was going to ask how you're feeling about working now
Speaker 1: besides the writer's like forming another relationship with a company
Speaker 1: or yeah, I mean, I it's definitely given me more
Speaker 1: of a perspective as an independent creator that that now
Speaker 1: it might be my chance to become a little more
Speaker 1: independent in the way that I'll write something that I
Speaker 1: really care about and then I'll pitch it to places.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of on my terms, and I can
Speaker 1: pick and choose if I want to work with a company,
Speaker 1: but I'll work with them as if we're client. It's
Speaker 1: not that they're my boss. I think that's kind of
Speaker 1: the relationship I'm trying to have right now, in the
Speaker 1: relationship I think you can have as a creator that
Speaker 1: you're not, you know, under a contract with them as
Speaker 1: an employee full time. I think that's what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to do right now, because yeah, I don't think I
Speaker 1: could go and be someone's nine to five employee right now,
Speaker 1: especially if they owned intellectual property of what I was doing.
Speaker 1: It would be the exact same situation, and I feel
Speaker 1: like I would I would be more afraid to do that.
Speaker 1: So I think now it's given me the approach that
Speaker 1: I want to be more independent in the way that
Speaker 1: I can kind of choose which relationships I have, and
Speaker 1: that feel like I'm under the reign of just one,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. I was wondering. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know it's still what's been like three months now, June, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like three three and a half months, so it's still
Speaker 1: fairly recent, and I'm sure it's still really stings, um,
Speaker 1: but I would pose it that barring it causing real
Speaker 1: personal calamit, everyone should get fired once. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's a kind of a necessary experience. This
Speaker 1: sounds so weird and like jaded and angsty, but I
Speaker 1: think you need to have the experience of needing to
Speaker 1: distance yourself a little bit from um a corporation, or
Speaker 1: from a company, or from a job even and realize
Speaker 1: that you know, it's not a forever thing, and that
Speaker 1: at any given moment, you or the company can choose
Speaker 1: to depart from one another, and that I think you
Speaker 1: kind of have to look at jobs as temporary and
Speaker 1: you know, do the best you can while you're there,
Speaker 1: but realize that it could end. I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: a relationship in those ways, but I think it is necessary.
Speaker 1: Though it definitely stings, but it gives you a perspective
Speaker 1: that I think is necessary. Great. Well, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming and talking to us about this painball topic.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that it's not fun to rehash those emotions,
Speaker 1: but I think I think it's interesting for everyone to
Speaker 1: hear every working person totally. I think so as well.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being so candid. Yeah, you got it up.
Speaker 1: Happens when the power and potential of every employee and
Speaker 1: leader in your workforce is released, and corn Fairy can
Speaker 1: get you there by aligning your people to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging,
Speaker 1: and rewarding them to reach new heights. With corn Ferry,
Speaker 1: you get a partner who truly understands people, leadership, and
Speaker 1: the new landscape of work, a partner who knows how
Speaker 1: to take your business up. Learn more at corn Ferry
Speaker 1: dot com slash up. So Brittany is obviously still dealing
Speaker 1: with the emotional sting of being fired. I mean, it
Speaker 1: just happened a few months ago, but I also wonder
Speaker 1: if that sticks with you for the rest of your career.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I have to wonder very much
Speaker 1: because Sam, I am fired, That's right. Uh, not from here, um,
Speaker 1: But I'm I am happy to tell you that fifteen
Speaker 1: years after getting laid off, it still is with me.
Speaker 1: It is perhaps one of the most oddly defining moments
Speaker 1: of my entire career for me, and it was horrible
Speaker 1: when it happened, and I'm very, very fortunate that I've
Speaker 1: been able to kind of bounce back from it, but
Speaker 1: it's still kind of haunts me, and it's changed my
Speaker 1: entire feeling about my relationship with my employer. And I
Speaker 1: definitely went through a period where I switched jobs a lot,
Speaker 1: I think, And yeah, let's talk about how it changes
Speaker 1: the way you view your employer, because that was something
Speaker 1: that stuck with me from Brittany's discussion, where you know,
Speaker 1: you think of this place that's kind of like your
Speaker 1: family or your friends, and then that they turn around
Speaker 1: and are so harsh to you so quickly can be
Speaker 1: really jarring. Absolutely. I was fired when I was twenty
Speaker 1: seven years old, and I had only worked at two
Speaker 1: other places at that point in my life, and prior
Speaker 1: to that, I had been in college. And college is
Speaker 1: a great community and you kind of carry that with
Speaker 1: you even after you've graduated and you start to probably
Speaker 1: apply it to the places you work. And then I
Speaker 1: was cast out of that community. I was told leave,
Speaker 1: we don't want you here. And yet I had established
Speaker 1: close friendships with people there, and I continued having those
Speaker 1: close friendships afterward. But it was very hard for me
Speaker 1: because it was like they were still it was like
Speaker 1: I broke up with somebody, but all my friends were
Speaker 1: still dating her, and I was hearing about things there,
Speaker 1: and I had to kind of be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's great. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad they're happy,
Speaker 1: and that sounds really cool. Um, Yeah, especially now we're
Speaker 1: expected to have so much of a social life at work,
Speaker 1: especially at a place like BuzzFeed, I imagine, and the
Speaker 1: places that we've worked, you know, you're supposed to really
Speaker 1: dive in and throw your whole self into your job.
Speaker 1: That to me is is something that has happened a
Speaker 1: lot in the last say twenty years, where companies take
Speaker 1: on all the trappings of a place that is safe,
Speaker 1: in a place to enjoy yourself and hey, look we've
Speaker 1: got all these perks and everything is much more casual
Speaker 1: than it used to be. Until a company, if it
Speaker 1: decides that it's not in its interest to have you
Speaker 1: work there anymore, will act decisively and to some degree mercilessly.
Speaker 1: And that has not changed. It just becomes a little
Speaker 1: bit more complicated when all this time they've been sort
Speaker 1: of putting their arm around your shoulder and saying we're
Speaker 1: on the same team, right. Yeah, that stresses me out.
Speaker 1: I have not been fired yet, given that I've managed
Speaker 1: to continue working and move on to other jobs and
Speaker 1: other things, I now look back on it as sort
Speaker 1: of a character building event. But I suppose that's what
Speaker 1: anybody who got fired would say. Anybody who now is
Speaker 1: in your position and is like doing okay. Right, If
Speaker 1: you're doing okay now, you're like, well, then I guess
Speaker 1: that was part of the journey or what have you.
Speaker 1: But I definitely feel I know that I feel more
Speaker 1: cynical about a company that I work for now than
Speaker 1: I did before. And and maybe that would have happened
Speaker 1: over time anyway, just a general cynicism that comes with age.
Speaker 1: But it was a very sudden education and and I
Speaker 1: really thought, like, this company loves me and I love it,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna be together forever. And all of a
Speaker 1: sudden no. And it wasn't hey, we're going to give
Speaker 1: you the heads up and in two weeks you kind
Speaker 1: of gotta get on out of here. It was you're
Speaker 1: laid off, pack up your things, get out. Yes, I
Speaker 1: mean it sounds like, yeah, you've built up kind of
Speaker 1: a shell. And maybe that's that's the best that we
Speaker 1: can all do, is Yes, I just think it could
Speaker 1: be realistic. Yes, be realistic. Recognize that these are businesses.
Speaker 1: They have bottom lines, they have investors, they have stockholders,
Speaker 1: they have whatever it is. And unless you have a
Speaker 1: contract or you're in a union perhaps where there are
Speaker 1: certain agreements about that. If you are in the kind
Speaker 1: of work that we do where it's at will, then
Speaker 1: you are effectively alone, and that becomes starkly real to
Speaker 1: you when you're told that you are no longer working.
Speaker 1: There Another thing you can do, which I learned from
Speaker 1: Sally Cratcheck, who we had on an earlier episode to
Speaker 1: talk about money, was that you're supposed to have what's
Speaker 1: called an F you fund? What does f you stand for?
Speaker 1: A bad word which is just like a StAst of
Speaker 1: cash to use when you need to like say f
Speaker 1: you to a boss or your partner or you know,
Speaker 1: it's just money, so you have and in the context
Speaker 1: of what we're discussing today, it might also be useful
Speaker 1: when a company basically says f you to you exactly,
Speaker 1: but I want, since we're talking about the emotional side
Speaker 1: of things, what is the like emotional version of the
Speaker 1: FU fund? You need to have an emotional nest egg.
Speaker 1: You need to have some sense of yourself outside of
Speaker 1: your job. It's so easy to identify yourself by the
Speaker 1: work you do. And I didn't realize that until my
Speaker 1: job was taken away from me, because it's suddenly just
Speaker 1: kind of shattered me, like I was, like, who am
Speaker 1: I what's my purpose, what's what's the whole point? And
Speaker 1: nowadays I feel like I can identify myself and feel
Speaker 1: good about myself in lots of other ways, my job
Speaker 1: being one of them, but not the only one. And
Speaker 1: so if you can figure that out without getting fired,
Speaker 1: well then you know you're in the high country. I
Speaker 1: feel like our show is often like Becca, like, once
Speaker 1: you're like a little bit more mature, like feel like
Speaker 1: when you're older, like you'll feel better. And now we're
Speaker 1: going to move on to half baked takes. Half baked
Speaker 1: takes this is the part of the show where Becca
Speaker 1: and I share some not fully formed opinions, observations, and
Speaker 1: analysis about the workplace, or for that matter, anything that
Speaker 1: we are really thinking about this week, Becca, why don't
Speaker 1: you lead us off? So my half baked take is
Speaker 1: almost a fully baked take. People should not complement other
Speaker 1: people on their physical appearance in the office. This is
Speaker 1: a controversial opinion. I've talked about it with a lot
Speaker 1: of people who give me like, but what about this scenario?
Speaker 1: And I just think that best practice. Don't do it.
Speaker 1: I've been made uncomfortable multiple times. Physical parents includes clothing.
Speaker 1: Just to clarify I really like your dress, right, great haircut,
Speaker 1: cool glasses, none of it, none of it. I don't
Speaker 1: want that at work. I think you're probably right. I
Speaker 1: think that I have said complimentary things to coworkers, but usually,
Speaker 1: or in fact always, they are people with whom I
Speaker 1: feel like I have a pretty real friendship with. You know,
Speaker 1: we've been working together for years, and like we've hung
Speaker 1: out its case by case for sure, and I've I've
Speaker 1: also done it, like I found myself complimenting of female
Speaker 1: coworkers cool pants, and then I'm like, oh, I'm such
Speaker 1: a hypocrite, So I don't check myself anyway. That's my
Speaker 1: my three quarter baked take no compliments. Well, mine is
Speaker 1: actually also apparel related and gender related. In fact, as
Speaker 1: we come to the close of summer, men, fellas, if
Speaker 1: you work in an office, here's a little thing. I
Speaker 1: don't ever want to see your knees. Okay, shorts have
Speaker 1: no business in business save him for the weekend. Okay.
Speaker 1: I know that this is a popular opinion. I've seen it.
Speaker 1: I do think the exception is if it's really really
Speaker 1: hot out, so what because it's over air conditioned, because
Speaker 1: you're all wearing pants and stuff you know what, I
Speaker 1: on the hottest day of the year, I will wear
Speaker 1: pants and it will not necessarily affect me so terribly.
Speaker 1: What's wrong with news? What you got against him? I
Speaker 1: just think that I don't know. I can't give you
Speaker 1: a rational response. I can just say that I don't
Speaker 1: want to see them. If there's also this holds true
Speaker 1: by the way, for like, if there's an office party,
Speaker 1: like you know we're all going like the boss's house
Speaker 1: to the pool. No, a lot of people wear shorts
Speaker 1: to our company picnic. Yeah, see, I wouldn't. I just
Speaker 1: don't ever think you should. I'll make it. I'll make
Speaker 1: it about me, very conservative, and you will never see
Speaker 1: my NaNs period. I think that's also three quarterbacked. We
Speaker 1: have a we have a take and a half man.
Speaker 1: We can just do one next week. Yeah, okay, great,
Speaker 1: And this has been half big takes, half baked takes.
Speaker 1: You have been listening to game Plan. I am Sam Grobart.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Sam Grobart. Our
Speaker 1: guest Brittany Ashley is also on Twitter at britt to
Speaker 1: seven and I'm at rs Greenfield. We'll see you next week.
Speaker 1: Take it easy, get the most from your people and
Speaker 1: send your business soaring with corn Ferry. From executive search
Speaker 1: to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and succession planning. Corn
Speaker 1: Ferry knows Up is more than a direction, it's your future.
Speaker 1: Learn more at corn ferry dot com. Slash up did
Speaker 1: it all for the Knookie. The Knookie, I've just been
Speaker 1: listening to early B fifty twos this morning, so I'm
Speaker 1: a little bit