WEBVTT - Summer Reading 2019 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:13.640 I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:15.800 Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.720 and I'm Joe McCormick, and we have got your summer 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.480 reading episode for this year. Except it's coming late, as 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.680 it often does, or extremely early, depending on how you 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.480 look at it. Or it may be a sort of 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.920 like climate latitude derived impression of summer. Here in Atlanta, 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.479 summer kind of goes until December or so. Yeah, and plus, well, 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.360 you know, summer is is in the mind and the heart, 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.320 you know. But we've also kind of been thinking of 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.400 it as the death of Summer episode. It's the episode 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.440 that celebrates the passing it's awake for summer. And so 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:47.920 if you're if you have if you don't know what 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.320 we're talking about here, this has been a longstanding tradition 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.199 of Stuff to Blow Your Mind is to do an 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:57.200 episode in which the hosts and sometimes guests will just 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.280 bring up a few different books that they have read 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.000 in the past year that they enjoyed, that they found insightful, 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.360 that they recommend, or just want to you know, celebrate 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.800 in some fashion. Yeah, and oh and you mentioned guests, 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.319 We've got a special treat for you today. We're bringing 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.360 back a blast from the past, a former host of 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.000 Stuff to blow your mind as a as a guest 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.119 for the end of this episode. But before we get 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.120 to that, Joe and I are just going to discuss 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.440 a few books that that we picked out, books that 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.800 we enjoyed this year. Uh. And it can be kind 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.480 of difficult at times that I think we've discussed this before, 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.200 because generally, if we read a really good book, it 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.280 is generally going to fall into one or two categories. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.720 Either it's something we're reading for work, for as part 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.160 of our podcast research, so of course we're going to 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.040 discuss it on the show. Or we end up just 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.520 talking and bending about back and forth on some episode 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:50.880 about it right, Or it's just something where we don't 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:52.680 start reading it for the show, but then there's just 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.840 something in there we learned, something that is just so 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.760 irresistible that it has to become an episode. So it 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:01.840 can be hard to come up with like fresh picks. So, 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:03.600 what's a really good book I read this year that 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.000 I didn't already talk about on one episode or another. 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.600 But but we've got a few today that's right, Robert, 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.640 did you want to go first today? Sure? Yeah, you know, 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.440 I'll just say in Passing, you know that obviously I 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.120 read a you know, a number of books that I 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.679 really love this year. But everyone I think has heard 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.640 me talk about, you know, I think I talked about 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.760 Broke's Brain, Reflections on the Romance of Science by Carl Sagan, 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.320 classic that I I read this year. Uh, And of 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.080 course we talked a lot about How to Change Your 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.520 Mind by Michael Pollen. I've discussed on the show how 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.240 much I've been enjoyed reading the writings of Terence McKenna 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.359 as well. But one book that I don't think I've 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:42.280 discussed on the show, or at least if it's come up, 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.840 it's only come up in Passing, is uh probably the 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.000 best one of the best pieces of fiction I read 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.240 this year, and it is Mongrels by Steven Graham Jones. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.720 From Stephen Graham Jones. I think we mentioned him on 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.160 last year's Summer Reading episode because we didn't go in 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.320 full detail, but when I was just talking about what 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.440 I was reading at the time, I think I mentioned 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.280 After the People Lights Have Gone Off, which is a 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:09.320 short story collection by Steven Graham Jones, which is fantastic. 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.520 I am really into this author, and I'm actually currently 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.079 in the middle of another book by him, a novel 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.040 called Demon Theory, which maybe I'll talk about in a 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.040 minute after you talk about Mongrels. Oh, absolutely so. Stephen 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.839 Graham Jones is a Blackfeet Native American author who who 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.480 writes in a number of different genres. But I read 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.560 this particular book, Mongrels, on a trip out to Arizona 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:34.480 earlier in the year. In fact, I actually picked it 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.680 up in the gift shop of the Haired Museum of 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.920 American Indian Art. Uh. They're in Arizona, which is a 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.160 wonderful museum, by the way. But the gift shop is 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.000 also great and includes a lot of First Nation authors 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.240 in various genres, including like science fiction, young adult, and 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:55.760 of course horror. Because Mongrels. Uh, it is a lot 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.400 of things. But it is also a werewolf book, and 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.800 and I'll go I'll certainly easily go as far to 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.080 say that it is the best piece of werewolf fiction 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.640 I've ever read. I can't think if I've ever read 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.000 a werewolf novel. Wait a minute, you read that like 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.920 werewolf spy book, didn't you know? I just looked at 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:15.760 it a beach house. It was like, c I a 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.240 werewolf or something. Yeah, I'm in the same boat. Like 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.520 when I try to think of like really great werewolf 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.679 fiction or even great werewolf movies, there kind of feeling 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.600 far between. Like the werewolf is a wonderful concept, but 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.080 it's not always utilized well in uh in a narrative form. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.760 But Mongrels does a fantastic job with with the werewolf 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.960 uh in in in several different ways. So just approaching 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:46.120 it from just a monster geek kind of standpoint, Jones 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.440 takes the the existing like you know, motif of the 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.520 werewolf and sort of the you know, some of the 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:56.479 existing key points of the werewolf mythos and uh and 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.160 and not only like, not only does he utilize those 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:00.920 well in the book, but he he creates a few 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.919 new wrinkles in the mythology that that manages to just 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:09.839 make everything feel more real about the werewolf, and he 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.599 brings it more life without this, you know, without totally 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.240 recreating it, without like you know, totally just you know, 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.640 creating something new that we call a can't therapy. Uh. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.239 He pairs it a lot with like themes about family, 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.000 though doesn't he yeah, because this is this is ultimately 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:29.200 a coming of age story. It is um it is 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:33.680 is about this young boy whose whose family moves around 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.839 there under like the fringes of society, and it is 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.400 um it is. It is I can't remember if it 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.120 is implied merely implied or or or or you know, 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.599 obviously stated that the family are are are our Native 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:51.800 American or Native American you know, descended, but but I 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.200 believe that is the case. So you know, you get 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.279 the you know, the sense that his family is you know, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.160 existing on on on the the edges of everything and 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.720 just barely scrape by, and they are plagued by uh lecanthropy, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.720 like where the werewolf blood runs in their family. And 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.039 the this boy at the very beginning, he's just he's 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:10.839 trying to figure it all out, like figure out the 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.039 like we all are at at a young age, trying 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.839 to figure out this wider world of adulthood and family. 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.080 And I'm trying to figure out where he fits into it. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.080 And he's told, you know, you you might not be 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:23.400 you know, I might might not have the werewolf blood 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.880 in you. Uh, you know, you might have this normal 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.159 life but you but you also very very may very 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.240 well be one of us, and so a lot of 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:35.240 the book is about him struggling with that, like what 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.000 does he want to be? And who is he? And 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.880 um and gosh. Stephen Graham Jones just does a tremendous 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.479 job in this, Like it's it's just a beautiful book 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.039 to read, the way he uses this metaphor, and at times, 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:48.880 even at times you're like, oh, man, this is a 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:50.720 great werewolf book. But other times you almost forget that 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.280 it it is a monster novel because it's it's it's 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.560 more about about this young boy and about the like 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:01.560 family identity and uh and and and and how he's 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.760 figuring out his life and then it's uh, it's written 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.760 very elegantly, laid out very elegantly because each chapter is 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.080 pretty much a short story unto itself, so that the 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.080 structure is great. Like you, it's one of these books 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.360 where you finish a chapter and if that were the 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.480 end of the novel, uh, you would you would feel 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.360 pretty satisfied. So it's it's one of the more like 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.680 just structurally complete books that I've read in a long time. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.640 Like there's no fat on it either, though it's not like, oh, well, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:29.640 the short story just feels kind of, you know, a 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.840 little extra, but this this chapter is a little extra. Uh. 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:34.880 And and you know it's just filling in the gaps. No, 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.080 it's just it's it's it's all meat, just like a 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.640 werewolf would like. Yeah, I've thought for a long time 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.760 now if Stephen Graham Jones is a horror write not 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.240 just a horror writer. He's written in I don't know, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.280 works that span different genres, but a lot of what 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.559 he seems to be known best for is his horror fiction. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.400 Um uh. He seems to me like somebody who is 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:59.400 at the same time very creative and thoughtful and willing 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.360 to get experimental, but exact at the same time refreshingly 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.280 free of writerly pretensions. Some of the comments I've heard 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.960 and read about like his writing process and work and 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.240 all that seems kind of I don't know it, just 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.000 like not precious about it. And I think somehow that 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.960 attitude comes through, and at least what I've heard what 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.640 I've read of his as a kind of freedom that 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:28.360 crackles through the prose, like in this he he's a 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.640 very thoughtful writer, but at the same time has some 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.600 kind of distance from what he's doing that just allows 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.719 him to to spin a yarn with a kind of 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.600 with degrees of freedom that I don't often feel in 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:44.000 other authors. Yeah, there's and I'm probably not describing it well, 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.680 but there's there's there's something about this book where it 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:51.280 does not feel like deliberate in a in a writer's sense, 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.120 or or at least it's so good that I don't 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.120 I don't think about like the writing process when I'm 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.080 reading it. Uh, you know, it's just I remember when 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:02.960 when I was going it was chapter to chapter, it 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.240 was it was it was one of these book where 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:08.240 you just couldn't put it down. And I also ended 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.440 up when I was thinking about it, I was thinking, 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.280 you know, just totally about the characters and and and 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.600 they're and and wondering maybe even worrying like what was 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.640 going to happen to them? And it I think it's 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:20.720 been a long time since I've really had that experience 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.000 with the books. So you know, really I really have 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:26.440 to give this one, you know, top marks for sure. Yeah. 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.000 And another thing about Stephen Graham Jones that I've noticed 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:30.760 it and it comes through if you just read one 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.320 of his collections of short stories, like After the People 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.360 lights have gone off, is that he can write it 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.079 at very different levels. Like some of the horror. It's 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.920 all horror stories pretty much in this book, or at 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.800 least kind of strange, at least weird stories. Most of 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.360 them are you would think of his horror, but some 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.840 are like thoughtful I don't know what that sounds pretentious, 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:58.880 but what people would probably call literary horror kind of reserved, prose, contemplative, uh, eerie, 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.440 rather than than splatter horror. But then some of them 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.600 are just splatter horror. Like some of it is like 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.760 low brow, almost gross out horror, and and he's great 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.959 at that too, right, Yeah, in this book, there's I 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.360 would recommend this book for people who are maybe even 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.080 not horror fans, Like I don't want anyone to be 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.400 turned off by the werewolf aspect of it, because it's 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.160 not it's not really blood and guts, you know. Uh, 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:23.840 though it does have a few there are a few 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.160 details in it that that do make your skin crawl. 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.200 In particular, he has his whole business about how like 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.040 a werewolf has to be very careful about what they wear. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.520 Um because like imagine, for instance, if you're wearing spandex 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.880 and you grow out into a werewolf, where we'll form 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.120 this large dog like body covered in hair. Like the 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.079 spandex is not going to rip away and be left 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.760 on the ground. It's going to remain. It's gonna stretch out, 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.800 and the hair of the wolf is going to poke 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.000 through it. And then what happens when that hair recedes 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.679 back into the body. Um, it's catastrophe. Uh and uh 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.680 and and he describes it in in detail in the book. 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:04.880 It's it's it's grizzly. It's the reason that I believe 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.560 they always wear like blue Jane cutoffs in the book, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.040 because it's something that will tear away and you don't 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.880 have to worry about it, like, you know, potentially killing 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.000 you later. Wow. I'm in the middle of reading another 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.600 novel by Stephen Graham Jones. Now I mentioned this other 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.040 earlier novel. I think it's from like two thousand six 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.400 or so. It's called Demon Theory, which is one of 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.040 the strangest books I've ever read. I still, you know, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.120 I'm like a hundred pages in and I'm still not 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.720 quite sure exactly what's going on. But so far it 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:37.800 seems to be a novelization of a nonexistent b horror 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:43.240 film with scholarly footnotes. But it's it's getting a little 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.600 bit weirder as it goes on, and it's it's striking 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.720 me as a very exploratory, experimental kind of novel. I'm 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:52.720 really excited to see where it goes from here. Kind 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.640 of shades of House of Leaves, yes, yes, sort of yeah, 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.920 but yeah, I would just say in general, Stephen Graham 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.080 Jones really interesting author. If you like horror at all, 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.760 or even if you don't like horror, worth given a 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.360 worth given a try, absolutely, and Mongrels is available just 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.120 all over the place. You can get an audio book 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.880 form as well. Well, well, Joe, what are what's your pick? 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.360 Then your first pick for this summer reading episode? Well, okay, 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.880 so I think you were mainly focusing on fiction this year. 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.520 I think our guest is mainly going to focus on fiction, 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.680 So I'm doing doing a few nonfiction books, so though, 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:26.839 I mean, of course, I will give a quick acknowledgment 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.560 of like I'd say, probably the best fiction book I 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:30.920 read this year was the Name of the Row is 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.920 by Umberto. Yeah, it's a classic, and it's it's a 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.040 classic for a reason. That is a fantastic novel, I 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.560 mean just so rich, so good. I read it with 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.520 a with like a companion glossary that you let me 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.560 borrow this, like this whole other book that's like a 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.960 key to all of this story. Yeah too, because like 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.520 Umberto Echo was a genuine medievalist, and so a lot 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.880 of the like the historical setting of the novel is 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.960 rich with real details from from actual history and uh, 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:02.760 and so the key to the Name of the Rose, 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.000 I would I would recommend doing it that way. If 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:06.720 you read the Name of the Rose, get that book 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.760 and have it alongside with you when you read it. 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.880 Right though at the same time, I would I don't 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.160 want to scare anyone away from the Name of the Rose, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.760 because I feel like comperto Eco does a really good 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.719 job with, you know, the contextual usage of these different references. 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.560 So they'll be they'll be passages in other languages, there'll 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.680 be references to historical figures or or you know, works 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.880 of literature, various manuscripts or what have you. And he's 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.599 pretty good about like grounding and within the context of 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.320 the stories, you don't have to necessarily know what those 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.280 things are. But on the other hand, it's that extra 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.600 level of appreciation to be able to look it up 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:43.480 in say the key to the name of the rose 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.720 and and see exactly what it was referring to. Right, 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.840 You don't have to speak Latin to recognize the Latin 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:55.200 or vulgar Italian phrase for the black magic of Jesus Christ. Okay. So, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.720 uh So I'm gonna talk about some nonfiction books this year. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.920 Uh And this year, you know what, I'm not going 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.559 to read all the junk that comes after the colon 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.200 and a nonfiction book title. I wish publishers would stop 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.320 insisting on all that stuff after the colon and just 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:12.880 let the book have a regular title, Okay, And I'm 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.480 gonna enforce that rule myself. So the first one I 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.680 want to talk about today, it was a really interesting 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.920 and important book. Uh. Is called a Cracking Creation and 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.640 came out in twenty seventeen by Jennifer DOWDNA and Samuel 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.080 Sternberg and at Base. This is a book about the 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:33.240 Crisper Cassinine gene editing technology and the current spate of 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.360 gene editing technologies. Uh. This is an unusual and really 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.120 interesting kind of book because it's a book about a 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.960 revolutionary moment in science and technology, written right in the 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.120 middle of that revolutionary moment, not really looking back, but like, 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.360 you know, what this book is about is still going 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.360 on right now, and written by one of the leading 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.440 scientists who brought about this revolution. In this case, that 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.680 would be Jennifer DOWDNA, who is one of the main 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:03.360 figures in discovering the Crisper cast nine gene editing potential. So, 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.119 Jennifer down is a biochemist at you see, Berkeley. Previously 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.840 she had worked in research on RNA and ribisims. But 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.520 over the past decade she and colleagues both in her 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:16.120 Berkeley lab and UH at a few other institutions, including 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.440 work by Emmanuel Sharpentier and other colleagues around the world, 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.560 they discovered the potential of the bacterial Crisper CASS nine 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.560 machinery to change what's possible in gene editing, to make 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:33.160 gene editing a much more plausible economical proposition in many 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:38.200 more scenarios than previous gene insertion technologies. And so in 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.320 this book there there are a few different sections Down 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.960 and Sternberg. Oh, and Sternberg is one of her colleagues 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.680 as well as I think a student who had originally 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.400 worked under her. But they write about the discovery in 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:50.760 a few different ways. So there's like a scientific background 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.880 section where they explain the genetics and the microbiology that 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.840 underlies the discovery of the Crisper cast nine system. They 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.440 explain how it works, they tell thet biographical story of 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.120 the research efforts that made the discovery. But then a 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.560 lot of the book is them talking firsthand about trying 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.320 to grapple with the real world implications of this powerful 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.480 technology and trying to get the rest of the world 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.680 to slow down and consider the ethical issues with gene 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.120 editing before they say run off and start editing human 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.080 germ lines. And of course, when you edit the human 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.640 germ line, like the embryos or like the spurm ur 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.840 egg cells, you make changes that don't just change one person, 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.240 but will make changes that can be passed on to 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.080 all future generations that come after that person. And so 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.880 they've been trying to say, hey, wait, we should think 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.920 out the ethical issues that that come along with this 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.200 level of gene editing technology before we just go hog 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.440 wild and apply it everywhere. And it's really interesting hearing 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.760 dowbt On Sternberg wrestle with the the ethical pros and 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.000 cons in real time. Like she talks about how at 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.440 first she was just like, well, you know, I think 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.840 we've got to have a moratorium right now on germline 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.120 a thing, because you know, we we we haven't thought 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.680 through all the ethical considerations yet. But then she talks 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.400 about meeting with the families of people who suffered from 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.439 you know, horrible or deadly genetic diseases that said, no, 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.240 you know, like, if we've got the power to do 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.680 something that could have that could have saved my loved one, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:23.120 or that could potentially save people like them in the future, yes, 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.680 of course you should do that now. And so there 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.080 are these powerful forces pulling in both directions. There's this 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.480 strong resistance and fear about what this this technology could 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.160 mean if it's applied to loosely or too quickly without 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.200 thinking about all of the consequences. But then there's also 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.840 this powerful interest on the part of people who are 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:44.760 like that this is life and death for me and 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:46.359 for people like me. Yeah, I mean, it's one of 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.239 those moral dilemmas where like you to say, let's just 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.520 have all of it, let's just let's just go at 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.000 it and just you know, see where the cards fall, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.560 like that's that's irresponsible. But then the other hand is 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.600 to just say we're we're not gonna we're just gonna 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.280 shut an entire line of research here. We're not going 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.399 to we're not going to investigate this technology any further 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.200 when there's so much that could be could be gained 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.720 from it. Yeah, gene editing, I think, is another example 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.440 of something perhaps like sort of like nuclear technology, sort 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.760 of like artificial intelligence. We have technological power before we 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.879 understand exactly how that technological power can be used. And 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.439 part of the problem is that with all these technologies, 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.399 actually with nuclear with artificial intelligence, with gene editing, now, 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.840 especially because of Crisper CAST nine, the the they are 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:39.000 reaching a point of um dispersal basically where you can't 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.960 just say, well, only the people in this one ivory 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:44.600 tower can make the decision about whether to use these 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.159 technologies or not. Because one of the things that the 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.920 Crisper has brought along is that, you know, now gene 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.840 editing is becoming so easy that you know, she talks 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.919 about how with the right tools and the right know, 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:00.720 how a high school student could do gene editing. I mean, 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.760 that's literally the world we are entering now. And that's 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.120 like a terrifying power because you know, she talks about 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.439 how well, okay, so it's one thing to talk about, uh, 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.600 the precise types of gene editing made possible by Crisper 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.399 cast nine to say, knockout a gene that causes a 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.760 double recessive genetic disease that is debilitating or fatal and 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.199 saving lives that way versus On the other hand, this 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.480 could be used in so many ways that people haven't 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.240 even thought of yet. There's the idea of editing genes 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:36.520 to create designer pets, like the micro pig created in China. Um, 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.600 you know, where you can just alter a gene that 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.119 controls how growth hormone is dealt within the body, and 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.480 that one alteration suddenly creates an adult pig that's like 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.840 the size of a small dog. And so okay, well 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.119 maybe that doesn't sound so bad, but you could just 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.399 keep going like that. She imagines that what's to stop 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.480 people from trying to create dragons out of living organisms 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.520 and all that? Not necessarily like, oh, we should be 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:03.960 worried about the threat posed by the dragons, but like, 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.240 is it ethical to be intentionally altering nature? This way. 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:10.359 Then again, on the other hand, you've you've got the 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.320 issue of like, well, we already do sort of alternature 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.560 but in much clumsier way. Yes, again, as we we 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.320 often point out, look to the pug. That's the example. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.400 But I guess the idea is that the pug took 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.520 considerably long or to produce, and you're talking about potentially 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.159 creating a pug um, you know, not over the course 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:32.159 of of generations and generations, but within like a single 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:37.439 generation create a dragon pug. Yeah. I mean, it's just 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.040 it's a really really thorny issue, and it's one that 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.160 we can't just stick our heads in the sand and 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:44.800