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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and we have got your summer

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Speaker 1: reading episode for this year. Except it's coming late, as

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Speaker 1: it often does, or extremely early, depending on how you

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Speaker 1: look at it. Or it may be a sort of

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Speaker 1: like climate latitude derived impression of summer. Here in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: summer kind of goes until December or so. Yeah, and plus, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, summer is is in the mind and the heart,

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Speaker 1: you know. But we've also kind of been thinking of

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Speaker 1: it as the death of Summer episode. It's the episode

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Speaker 1: that celebrates the passing it's awake for summer. And so

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Speaker 1: if you're if you have if you don't know what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about here, this has been a longstanding tradition

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Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind is to do an

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Speaker 1: episode in which the hosts and sometimes guests will just

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Speaker 1: bring up a few different books that they have read

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Speaker 1: in the past year that they enjoyed, that they found insightful,

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Speaker 1: that they recommend, or just want to you know, celebrate

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Speaker 1: in some fashion. Yeah, and oh and you mentioned guests,

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Speaker 1: We've got a special treat for you today. We're bringing

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Speaker 1: back a blast from the past, a former host of

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Speaker 1: Stuff to blow your mind as a as a guest

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Speaker 1: for the end of this episode. But before we get

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Speaker 1: to that, Joe and I are just going to discuss

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Speaker 1: a few books that that we picked out, books that

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Speaker 1: we enjoyed this year. Uh. And it can be kind

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Speaker 1: of difficult at times that I think we've discussed this before,

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Speaker 1: because generally, if we read a really good book, it

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Speaker 1: is generally going to fall into one or two categories.

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Speaker 1: Either it's something we're reading for work, for as part

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Speaker 1: of our podcast research, so of course we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss it on the show. Or we end up just

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Speaker 1: talking and bending about back and forth on some episode

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Speaker 1: about it right, Or it's just something where we don't

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Speaker 1: start reading it for the show, but then there's just

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Speaker 1: something in there we learned, something that is just so

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Speaker 1: irresistible that it has to become an episode. So it

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Speaker 1: can be hard to come up with like fresh picks. So,

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Speaker 1: what's a really good book I read this year that

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Speaker 1: I didn't already talk about on one episode or another.

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Speaker 1: But but we've got a few today that's right, Robert,

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Speaker 1: did you want to go first today? Sure? Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'll just say in Passing, you know that obviously I

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Speaker 1: read a you know, a number of books that I

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Speaker 1: really love this year. But everyone I think has heard

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Speaker 1: me talk about, you know, I think I talked about

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Speaker 1: Broke's Brain, Reflections on the Romance of Science by Carl Sagan,

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Speaker 1: classic that I I read this year. Uh, And of

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Speaker 1: course we talked a lot about How to Change Your

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Speaker 1: Mind by Michael Pollen. I've discussed on the show how

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Speaker 1: much I've been enjoyed reading the writings of Terence McKenna

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Speaker 1: as well. But one book that I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: discussed on the show, or at least if it's come up,

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Speaker 1: it's only come up in Passing, is uh probably the

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Speaker 1: best one of the best pieces of fiction I read

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Speaker 1: this year, and it is Mongrels by Steven Graham Jones.

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Speaker 1: From Stephen Graham Jones. I think we mentioned him on

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Speaker 1: last year's Summer Reading episode because we didn't go in

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Speaker 1: full detail, but when I was just talking about what

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Speaker 1: I was reading at the time, I think I mentioned

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Speaker 1: After the People Lights Have Gone Off, which is a

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Speaker 1: short story collection by Steven Graham Jones, which is fantastic.

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Speaker 1: I am really into this author, and I'm actually currently

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Speaker 1: in the middle of another book by him, a novel

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Speaker 1: called Demon Theory, which maybe I'll talk about in a

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Speaker 1: minute after you talk about Mongrels. Oh, absolutely so. Stephen

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Speaker 1: Graham Jones is a Blackfeet Native American author who who

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Speaker 1: writes in a number of different genres. But I read

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Speaker 1: this particular book, Mongrels, on a trip out to Arizona

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Speaker 1: earlier in the year. In fact, I actually picked it

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Speaker 1: up in the gift shop of the Haired Museum of

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Speaker 1: American Indian Art. Uh. They're in Arizona, which is a

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Speaker 1: wonderful museum, by the way. But the gift shop is

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Speaker 1: also great and includes a lot of First Nation authors

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Speaker 1: in various genres, including like science fiction, young adult, and

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Speaker 1: of course horror. Because Mongrels. Uh, it is a lot

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Speaker 1: of things. But it is also a werewolf book, and

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Speaker 1: and I'll go I'll certainly easily go as far to

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Speaker 1: say that it is the best piece of werewolf fiction

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Speaker 1: I've ever read. I can't think if I've ever read

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Speaker 1: a werewolf novel. Wait a minute, you read that like

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Speaker 1: werewolf spy book, didn't you know? I just looked at

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Speaker 1: it a beach house. It was like, c I a

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Speaker 1: werewolf or something. Yeah, I'm in the same boat. Like

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Speaker 1: when I try to think of like really great werewolf

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Speaker 1: fiction or even great werewolf movies, there kind of feeling

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Speaker 1: far between. Like the werewolf is a wonderful concept, but

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Speaker 1: it's not always utilized well in uh in a narrative form.

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Speaker 1: But Mongrels does a fantastic job with with the werewolf

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Speaker 1: uh in in in several different ways. So just approaching

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Speaker 1: it from just a monster geek kind of standpoint, Jones

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Speaker 1: takes the the existing like you know, motif of the

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Speaker 1: werewolf and sort of the you know, some of the

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Speaker 1: existing key points of the werewolf mythos and uh and

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Speaker 1: and not only like, not only does he utilize those

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Speaker 1: well in the book, but he he creates a few

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Speaker 1: new wrinkles in the mythology that that manages to just

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Speaker 1: make everything feel more real about the werewolf, and he

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Speaker 1: brings it more life without this, you know, without totally

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Speaker 1: recreating it, without like you know, totally just you know,

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Speaker 1: creating something new that we call a can't therapy. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He pairs it a lot with like themes about family,

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Speaker 1: though doesn't he yeah, because this is this is ultimately

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Speaker 1: a coming of age story. It is um it is

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Speaker 1: is about this young boy whose whose family moves around

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Speaker 1: there under like the fringes of society, and it is

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Speaker 1: um it is. It is I can't remember if it

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Speaker 1: is implied merely implied or or or or you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously stated that the family are are are our Native

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Speaker 1: American or Native American you know, descended, but but I

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Speaker 1: believe that is the case. So you know, you get

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Speaker 1: the you know, the sense that his family is you know,

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Speaker 1: existing on on on the the edges of everything and

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Speaker 1: just barely scrape by, and they are plagued by uh lecanthropy,

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Speaker 1: like where the werewolf blood runs in their family. And

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Speaker 1: the this boy at the very beginning, he's just he's

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Speaker 1: trying to figure it all out, like figure out the

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Speaker 1: like we all are at at a young age, trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out this wider world of adulthood and family.

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Speaker 1: And I'm trying to figure out where he fits into it.

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Speaker 1: And he's told, you know, you you might not be

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Speaker 1: you know, I might might not have the werewolf blood

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Speaker 1: in you. Uh, you know, you might have this normal

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Speaker 1: life but you but you also very very may very

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Speaker 1: well be one of us, and so a lot of

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Speaker 1: the book is about him struggling with that, like what

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Speaker 1: does he want to be? And who is he? And

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Speaker 1: um and gosh. Stephen Graham Jones just does a tremendous

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Speaker 1: job in this, Like it's it's just a beautiful book

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Speaker 1: to read, the way he uses this metaphor, and at times,

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Speaker 1: even at times you're like, oh, man, this is a

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Speaker 1: great werewolf book. But other times you almost forget that

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Speaker 1: it it is a monster novel because it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: more about about this young boy and about the like

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Speaker 1: family identity and uh and and and and how he's

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Speaker 1: figuring out his life and then it's uh, it's written

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Speaker 1: very elegantly, laid out very elegantly because each chapter is

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Speaker 1: pretty much a short story unto itself, so that the

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Speaker 1: structure is great. Like you, it's one of these books

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Speaker 1: where you finish a chapter and if that were the

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Speaker 1: end of the novel, uh, you would you would feel

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Speaker 1: pretty satisfied. So it's it's one of the more like

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Speaker 1: just structurally complete books that I've read in a long time.

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Speaker 1: Like there's no fat on it either, though it's not like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: the short story just feels kind of, you know, a

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Speaker 1: little extra, but this this chapter is a little extra. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And and you know it's just filling in the gaps. No,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's it's it's all meat, just like a

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Speaker 1: werewolf would like. Yeah, I've thought for a long time

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Speaker 1: now if Stephen Graham Jones is a horror write not

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Speaker 1: just a horror writer. He's written in I don't know,

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Speaker 1: works that span different genres, but a lot of what

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Speaker 1: he seems to be known best for is his horror fiction.

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Speaker 1: Um uh. He seems to me like somebody who is

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Speaker 1: at the same time very creative and thoughtful and willing

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Speaker 1: to get experimental, but exact at the same time refreshingly

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Speaker 1: free of writerly pretensions. Some of the comments I've heard

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Speaker 1: and read about like his writing process and work and

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Speaker 1: all that seems kind of I don't know it, just

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Speaker 1: like not precious about it. And I think somehow that

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Speaker 1: attitude comes through, and at least what I've heard what

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Speaker 1: I've read of his as a kind of freedom that

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Speaker 1: crackles through the prose, like in this he he's a

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Speaker 1: very thoughtful writer, but at the same time has some

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Speaker 1: kind of distance from what he's doing that just allows

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Speaker 1: him to to spin a yarn with a kind of

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Speaker 1: with degrees of freedom that I don't often feel in

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Speaker 1: other authors. Yeah, there's and I'm probably not describing it well,

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Speaker 1: but there's there's there's something about this book where it

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Speaker 1: does not feel like deliberate in a in a writer's sense,

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Speaker 1: or or at least it's so good that I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't think about like the writing process when I'm

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Speaker 1: reading it. Uh, you know, it's just I remember when

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Speaker 1: when I was going it was chapter to chapter, it

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Speaker 1: was it was it was one of these book where

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Speaker 1: you just couldn't put it down. And I also ended

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Speaker 1: up when I was thinking about it, I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, just totally about the characters and and and

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Speaker 1: they're and and wondering maybe even worrying like what was

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Speaker 1: going to happen to them? And it I think it's

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Speaker 1: been a long time since I've really had that experience

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Speaker 1: with the books. So you know, really I really have

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Speaker 1: to give this one, you know, top marks for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And another thing about Stephen Graham Jones that I've noticed

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Speaker 1: it and it comes through if you just read one

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Speaker 1: of his collections of short stories, like After the People

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Speaker 1: lights have gone off, is that he can write it

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Speaker 1: at very different levels. Like some of the horror. It's

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Speaker 1: all horror stories pretty much in this book, or at

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Speaker 1: least kind of strange, at least weird stories. Most of

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Speaker 1: them are you would think of his horror, but some

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Speaker 1: are like thoughtful I don't know what that sounds pretentious,

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Speaker 1: but what people would probably call literary horror kind of reserved, prose, contemplative, uh, eerie,

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Speaker 1: rather than than splatter horror. But then some of them

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Speaker 1: are just splatter horror. Like some of it is like

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Speaker 1: low brow, almost gross out horror, and and he's great

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Speaker 1: at that too, right, Yeah, in this book, there's I

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Speaker 1: would recommend this book for people who are maybe even

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Speaker 1: not horror fans, Like I don't want anyone to be

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Speaker 1: turned off by the werewolf aspect of it, because it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not really blood and guts, you know. Uh,

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Speaker 1: though it does have a few there are a few

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Speaker 1: details in it that that do make your skin crawl.

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Speaker 1: In particular, he has his whole business about how like

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Speaker 1: a werewolf has to be very careful about what they wear.

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Speaker 1: Um because like imagine, for instance, if you're wearing spandex

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Speaker 1: and you grow out into a werewolf, where we'll form

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Speaker 1: this large dog like body covered in hair. Like the

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Speaker 1: spandex is not going to rip away and be left

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Speaker 1: on the ground. It's going to remain. It's gonna stretch out,

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Speaker 1: and the hair of the wolf is going to poke

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Speaker 1: through it. And then what happens when that hair recedes

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Speaker 1: back into the body. Um, it's catastrophe. Uh and uh

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Speaker 1: and and he describes it in in detail in the book.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's grizzly. It's the reason that I believe

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Speaker 1: they always wear like blue Jane cutoffs in the book,

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Speaker 1: because it's something that will tear away and you don't

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Speaker 1: have to worry about it, like, you know, potentially killing

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Speaker 1: you later. Wow. I'm in the middle of reading another

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Speaker 1: novel by Stephen Graham Jones. Now I mentioned this other

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Speaker 1: earlier novel. I think it's from like two thousand six

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Speaker 1: or so. It's called Demon Theory, which is one of

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Speaker 1: the strangest books I've ever read. I still, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm like a hundred pages in and I'm still not

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Speaker 1: quite sure exactly what's going on. But so far it

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Speaker 1: seems to be a novelization of a nonexistent b horror

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Speaker 1: film with scholarly footnotes. But it's it's getting a little

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Speaker 1: bit weirder as it goes on, and it's it's striking

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Speaker 1: me as a very exploratory, experimental kind of novel. I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited to see where it goes from here. Kind

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Speaker 1: of shades of House of Leaves, yes, yes, sort of yeah,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I would just say in general, Stephen Graham

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Speaker 1: Jones really interesting author. If you like horror at all,

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Speaker 1: or even if you don't like horror, worth given a

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Speaker 1: worth given a try, absolutely, and Mongrels is available just

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Speaker 1: all over the place. You can get an audio book

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Speaker 1: form as well. Well, well, Joe, what are what's your pick?

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Speaker 1: Then your first pick for this summer reading episode? Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so I think you were mainly focusing on fiction this year.

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Speaker 1: I think our guest is mainly going to focus on fiction,

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Speaker 1: So I'm doing doing a few nonfiction books, so though,

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Speaker 1: I mean, of course, I will give a quick acknowledgment

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Speaker 1: of like I'd say, probably the best fiction book I

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Speaker 1: read this year was the Name of the Row is

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Speaker 1: by Umberto. Yeah, it's a classic, and it's it's a

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Speaker 1: classic for a reason. That is a fantastic novel, I

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Speaker 1: mean just so rich, so good. I read it with

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Speaker 1: a with like a companion glossary that you let me

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Speaker 1: borrow this, like this whole other book that's like a

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Speaker 1: key to all of this story. Yeah too, because like

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Speaker 1: Umberto Echo was a genuine medievalist, and so a lot

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Speaker 1: of the like the historical setting of the novel is

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Speaker 1: rich with real details from from actual history and uh,

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Speaker 1: and so the key to the Name of the Rose,

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Speaker 1: I would I would recommend doing it that way. If

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Speaker 1: you read the Name of the Rose, get that book

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Speaker 1: and have it alongside with you when you read it.

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Speaker 1: Right though at the same time, I would I don't

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Speaker 1: want to scare anyone away from the Name of the Rose,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like comperto Eco does a really good

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Speaker 1: job with, you know, the contextual usage of these different references.

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Speaker 1: So they'll be they'll be passages in other languages, there'll

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Speaker 1: be references to historical figures or or you know, works

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Speaker 1: of literature, various manuscripts or what have you. And he's

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Speaker 1: pretty good about like grounding and within the context of

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Speaker 1: the stories, you don't have to necessarily know what those

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Speaker 1: things are. But on the other hand, it's that extra

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Speaker 1: level of appreciation to be able to look it up

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Speaker 1: in say the key to the name of the rose

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Speaker 1: and and see exactly what it was referring to. Right,

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Speaker 1: You don't have to speak Latin to recognize the Latin

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Speaker 1: or vulgar Italian phrase for the black magic of Jesus Christ. Okay. So,

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Speaker 1: uh So I'm gonna talk about some nonfiction books this year.

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Speaker 1: Uh And this year, you know what, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to read all the junk that comes after the colon

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Speaker 1: and a nonfiction book title. I wish publishers would stop

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Speaker 1: insisting on all that stuff after the colon and just

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Speaker 1: let the book have a regular title, Okay, And I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna enforce that rule myself. So the first one I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about today, it was a really interesting

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Speaker 1: and important book. Uh. Is called a Cracking Creation and

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Speaker 1: came out in twenty seventeen by Jennifer DOWDNA and Samuel

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Speaker 1: Sternberg and at Base. This is a book about the

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Speaker 1: Crisper Cassinine gene editing technology and the current spate of

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Speaker 1: gene editing technologies. Uh. This is an unusual and really

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Speaker 1: interesting kind of book because it's a book about a

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Speaker 1: revolutionary moment in science and technology, written right in the

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Speaker 1: middle of that revolutionary moment, not really looking back, but like,

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Speaker 1: you know, what this book is about is still going

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Speaker 1: on right now, and written by one of the leading

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Speaker 1: scientists who brought about this revolution. In this case, that

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Speaker 1: would be Jennifer DOWDNA, who is one of the main

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Speaker 1: figures in discovering the Crisper cast nine gene editing potential. So,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer down is a biochemist at you see, Berkeley. Previously

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Speaker 1: she had worked in research on RNA and ribisims. But

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Speaker 1: over the past decade she and colleagues both in her

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Speaker 1: Berkeley lab and UH at a few other institutions, including

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Speaker 1: work by Emmanuel Sharpentier and other colleagues around the world,

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Speaker 1: they discovered the potential of the bacterial Crisper CASS nine

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Speaker 1: machinery to change what's possible in gene editing, to make

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Speaker 1: gene editing a much more plausible economical proposition in many

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Speaker 1: more scenarios than previous gene insertion technologies. And so in

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Speaker 1: this book there there are a few different sections Down

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Speaker 1: and Sternberg. Oh, and Sternberg is one of her colleagues

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Speaker 1: as well as I think a student who had originally

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Speaker 1: worked under her. But they write about the discovery in

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Speaker 1: a few different ways. So there's like a scientific background

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Speaker 1: section where they explain the genetics and the microbiology that

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Speaker 1: underlies the discovery of the Crisper cast nine system. They

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Speaker 1: explain how it works, they tell thet biographical story of

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Speaker 1: the research efforts that made the discovery. But then a

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Speaker 1: lot of the book is them talking firsthand about trying

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Speaker 1: to grapple with the real world implications of this powerful

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Speaker 1: technology and trying to get the rest of the world

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Speaker 1: to slow down and consider the ethical issues with gene

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Speaker 1: editing before they say run off and start editing human

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Speaker 1: germ lines. And of course, when you edit the human

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Speaker 1: germ line, like the embryos or like the spurm ur

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Speaker 1: egg cells, you make changes that don't just change one person,

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Speaker 1: but will make changes that can be passed on to

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Speaker 1: all future generations that come after that person. And so

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Speaker 1: they've been trying to say, hey, wait, we should think

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Speaker 1: out the ethical issues that that come along with this

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Speaker 1: level of gene editing technology before we just go hog

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Speaker 1: wild and apply it everywhere. And it's really interesting hearing

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Speaker 1: dowbt On Sternberg wrestle with the the ethical pros and

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Speaker 1: cons in real time. Like she talks about how at

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Speaker 1: first she was just like, well, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: we've got to have a moratorium right now on germline

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Speaker 1: a thing, because you know, we we we haven't thought

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Speaker 1: through all the ethical considerations yet. But then she talks

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Speaker 1: about meeting with the families of people who suffered from

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Speaker 1: you know, horrible or deadly genetic diseases that said, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, if we've got the power to do

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Speaker 1: something that could have that could have saved my loved one,

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Speaker 1: or that could potentially save people like them in the future, yes,

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Speaker 1: of course you should do that now. And so there

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Speaker 1: are these powerful forces pulling in both directions. There's this

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Speaker 1: strong resistance and fear about what this this technology could

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Speaker 1: mean if it's applied to loosely or too quickly without

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Speaker 1: thinking about all of the consequences. But then there's also

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Speaker 1: this powerful interest on the part of people who are

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Speaker 1: like that this is life and death for me and

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Speaker 1: for people like me. Yeah, I mean, it's one of

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Speaker 1: those moral dilemmas where like you to say, let's just

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Speaker 1: have all of it, let's just let's just go at

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Speaker 1: it and just you know, see where the cards fall,

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Speaker 1: like that's that's irresponsible. But then the other hand is

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Speaker 1: to just say we're we're not gonna we're just gonna

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Speaker 1: shut an entire line of research here. We're not going

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Speaker 1: to we're not going to investigate this technology any further

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Speaker 1: when there's so much that could be could be gained

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Speaker 1: from it. Yeah, gene editing, I think, is another example

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Speaker 1: of something perhaps like sort of like nuclear technology, sort

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Speaker 1: of like artificial intelligence. We have technological power before we

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Speaker 1: understand exactly how that technological power can be used. And

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Speaker 1: part of the problem is that with all these technologies,

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Speaker 1: actually with nuclear with artificial intelligence, with gene editing, now,

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Speaker 1: especially because of Crisper CAST nine, the the they are

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Speaker 1: reaching a point of um dispersal basically where you can't

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Speaker 1: just say, well, only the people in this one ivory

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Speaker 1: tower can make the decision about whether to use these

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Speaker 1: technologies or not. Because one of the things that the

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Speaker 1: Crisper has brought along is that, you know, now gene

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Speaker 1: editing is becoming so easy that you know, she talks

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Speaker 1: about how with the right tools and the right know,

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Speaker 1: how a high school student could do gene editing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's literally the world we are entering now. And that's

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Speaker 1: like a terrifying power because you know, she talks about

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Speaker 1: how well, okay, so it's one thing to talk about, uh,

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Speaker 1: the precise types of gene editing made possible by Crisper

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Speaker 1: cast nine to say, knockout a gene that causes a

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Speaker 1: double recessive genetic disease that is debilitating or fatal and

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Speaker 1: saving lives that way versus On the other hand, this

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Speaker 1: could be used in so many ways that people haven't

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Speaker 1: even thought of yet. There's the idea of editing genes

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Speaker 1: to create designer pets, like the micro pig created in China. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, where you can just alter a gene that

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Speaker 1: controls how growth hormone is dealt within the body, and

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Speaker 1: that one alteration suddenly creates an adult pig that's like

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Speaker 1: the size of a small dog. And so okay, well

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Speaker 1: maybe that doesn't sound so bad, but you could just

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Speaker 1: keep going like that. She imagines that what's to stop

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Speaker 1: people from trying to create dragons out of living organisms

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Speaker 1: and all that? Not necessarily like, oh, we should be

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Speaker 1: worried about the threat posed by the dragons, but like,

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Speaker 1: is it ethical to be intentionally altering nature? This way.

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Speaker 1: Then again, on the other hand, you've you've got the

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Speaker 1: issue of like, well, we already do sort of alternature

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Speaker 1: but in much clumsier way. Yes, again, as we we

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Speaker 1: often point out, look to the pug. That's the example.

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Speaker 1: But I guess the idea is that the pug took

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Speaker 1: considerably long or to produce, and you're talking about potentially

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Speaker 1: creating a pug um, you know, not over the course

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Speaker 1: of of generations and generations, but within like a single

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Speaker 1: generation create a dragon pug. Yeah. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's a really really thorny issue, and it's one that

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Speaker 1: we can't just stick our heads in the sand and

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Speaker 1: like pretend like, Okay, that sounds scary. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to think about because the future is coming. We have

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Speaker 1: to figure out how we're going to encounter it, how

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Speaker 1: we're going to deal with it morally, to how we're

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Speaker 1: going to uh, you know, arrange our laws to deal

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Speaker 1: with it. Yes, you can't escape this issue by not

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, because other people, whether they're things king

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Speaker 1: about it or not, are doing it. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: capability is there now, um, and so there's no putting

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Speaker 1: the genie back in the bottle. So I'm sorry I

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Speaker 1: used a cliche like that. Uh, there's no putting all

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Speaker 1: the what would be not a cliche, there's no stuffing

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Speaker 1: all of the listeria containing salad back in the bag.

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Speaker 1: We are we are in the gene editing era. Now

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Speaker 1: we're in the earliest days of it. But are we're

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Speaker 1: going to become more and more powerful and our abilities

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Speaker 1: at gene editing, we're going to become more and more

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Speaker 1: uh dispersed to more people, so you know, people can

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Speaker 1: just make decisions on their own about what to do.

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Speaker 1: And we should start to come up with a coherent

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Speaker 1: ethical framework for what we think about what is right

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Speaker 1: and what is not right to do in gene editing.

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Speaker 1: And I think we have not solved these problems yet.

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Speaker 1: We don't know what the right thing is yet. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I I attended a panel at the World Science Festival

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Speaker 1: a few years back where some of the leading UH

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Speaker 1: experts in this in this field, we're talking about kind

428
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 1: of kind of basically the same issue, like what like,

429
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: how are we gonna going to to handle this, How

430
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: are we going to uh you know properly, how are

431
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: we going to try to you know, keep our wisdom

432
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 1: at a level to where we're not completely outpaced by

433
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: our power. And I guess in you know, in some

434
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,479
Speaker 1: ways it's it's like other things like one can certainly

435
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: look to pharmaceuticals and drugs and in various other technologies

436
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: that are you know that either have been have you

437
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: been highly legislated from the beginning, or or you know,

438
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 1: laws come in place and uh and bodies are established

439
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: to deal with them early on. But but in in

440
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: other ways it does seem unlike anything that we've really

441
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: had to deal with before, Like it's far more specific

442
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: in um in changing who we are potentially yeah, and

443
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: changing other organisms sometimes without realizing like what the full

444
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: ramifications are that of that are because we mentioned the

445
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: pug earlier and the fact that the course humans have

446
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 1: have always been changing their environment. But like that his

447
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,959
Speaker 1: sure you can look to the many catastrophic things we

448
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: have done in interacting with our environment. I mean, another

449
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: great example would be I think we've talked about this

450
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 1: on at some point in the show before, but Crisper

451
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: enabled gene drive technologies where you can drive certain genes

452
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: into wild populations of organisms. One of the most common

453
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: examples that has been floated here would be driving genes

454
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: into mosquitoes to either like white mosquitoes out by making

455
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: them sterile or creating like an all female population or

456
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: all male I don't remember which one, but so you

457
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: could do that, or trying to drive a gene into

458
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: mosquitoes that makes them resistant to the malaria parasite, which okay,

459
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: So on one hand it sounds like, yeah, malaria, you know,

460
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: mosquito boarn illnesses kill millions of people every year. You

461
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 1: of course you've got like an ethical responsibility to do that.

462
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: But have we fully thought about all the consequences. I mean,

463
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: there are a lot. There might be consequences that we

464
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: have not envisioned yet, and then there might be ways

465
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: that we're not properly appreciating the ethics of the consequences

466
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 1: that we do know how to predict. Right, and then

467
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: whereas you know, if such a decision, say with mosquito,

468
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: just to simplify things, like if the decision we're coming

469
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: from just a purely from from you know, a public

470
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: health standpoint, like the mosquito is one thing, but coming

471
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: from a conservation standpoint, the mosquito is potentially another, Like

472
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, fact factoring in that a mosquito is also

473
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: food for for various species. It is a pollinator. Uh,

474
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 1: you know, it has a definite, widespread role in the environment,

475
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: and one has to be careful not to jeopardize that

476
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 1: because if it changes, if it moves, everything moves. But

477
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: it's also not hard to imagine, just based on what

478
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: we've already talked about, like about the idea of deploying

479
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: certain types of tailored gene drives as weapons of mass

480
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: environmental destruction, like if you were a terrorist and you

481
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: just want, you know, something like that, or back in

482
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: the in the more human in health domain, there are

483
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: serious questions about like, Okay, so it's less controversial when

484
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: you just want to talk about single point gene mutations

485
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: to cure a genetic disease or something. But what if

486
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: people more generally start thinking, there are a few ways

487
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: I would like to improve my genome, you know, or

488
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 1: maybe you can't improve your genome as an adult, but

489
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 1: to improve the genome of my child and improve in

490
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: quotation marks, you know, right, yeah, I mean, because we

491
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: get down to the like the basic imperfection of of

492
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: the species, you know, like we are we are not

493
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: perfect beings that you know, we're drawn out of Holy

494
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: butter or something, you know. I mean, we're uh, you know,

495
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: we're we're a creature that evolved into this state and

496
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: they're there are various design issues with say, the way

497
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,239
Speaker 1: we walk and you know, among other things. So like

498
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: if you start, if you start trying to fix everything

499
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 1: that is wrong, like where where do you what do

500
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: you stop? Yes? And what counts is wrong? I mean,

501
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: it would just be a It would come down to

502
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: individual preferences and what medical science allows us to do.

503
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: And it's going to be more and more all the time.

504
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: So this is I think an incredibly important, incredibly thorny

505
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: issue that I think we're not ready for, and we

506
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: need to be doing more to try to get ready

507
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: to deal with this anyway. But but this is a

508
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: great place to start with that. And the book again

509
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: is called A Krack in Creation by Jennifer DOWDNU and

510
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: Samuel Sternberg. Excellent. Alright, we're gonna take a quick break,

511
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: I think, and when we come back, we're going to

512
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: roll through some additional bits of summer reading recommendation. Thank you,

513
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: all right, we're back, all right, Robert, So I think

514
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: you had a recommendation coming up next, right, Yeah, So

515
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 1: every year, at least recently, I've been trying to include

516
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: some sort of children's book because since I have now

517
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: a seven year old, a lot of the reading that

518
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: I do, uh is bedtime stories, you know, and you know,

519
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: we've we've probably celebrate reading in our household. But a

520
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: lot of the books that are you know, some of

521
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: the books that I read or you know, maybe not

522
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: that great or they're forgettable, or they're fine for a

523
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: seven year old, but they don't have much of an

524
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: impact on an adult reader. But I have a particular

525
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 1: book here that I picked up. I don't even know

526
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: how it came into our house, possibly via a lending

527
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: library and then possibly like I may have purchased it

528
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: or you know, obtained it from a library because it's

529
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: a former library copy. I one of these where like

530
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: the you know, the scanning bar has been sharpied out

531
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: and so forth. But it is a book titled First

532
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: Painter by Katherine Laski with paintings by Rocko Babiera, and

533
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: it's from two thousand and it is a book, a

534
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: children's book, beautifully illustrated children's book about Neolithic people and

535
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: Neolithic art um and it's UH for stars, I just

536
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: want to read just a section of it, to give

537
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 1: you just a glimpse, just a taste of of of

538
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: its uh, of its of its poetry. Quote the moon

539
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: of the Singing Grass has come and gone three times,

540
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: and still there is no rain. Babies have been born

541
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: and grown into little walkers and never seen rain. My

542
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: name is miss Who. I have lived for ten moons

543
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: of the Singing Grass, and now I am beginning to

544
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: forget the rain. It's sound, it's shape, and how the

545
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: water clouds gather like herds of Willie Mammoth's in the east.

546
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: My people are hungry, they are starving. First the grass died,

547
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: then the animals. Now us. So that that's the just

548
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: the first page from the book, and it is the

549
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: story of Mischu, of this Uh, this young girl in

550
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: this neolithic dribe, whose whose people are are plagued by famine,

551
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: and she is she realizes that she has to do

552
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: what what women in her family have done for generations

553
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: before her. She has to set out to a sacred

554
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: cave and she has to, through the creation of art,

555
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: call back the reins and bring rain and food back

556
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: to her people. And it's uh, it's it's beautifully written,

557
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: beautifully illustrated and written. It really gets into this uh.

558
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: You know, it gets to some of the questions indeed,

559
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: you know, larger questions I guess, like what is art

560
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: and you know, what what role does it play and

561
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: in the human experience, but also just like the mystery

562
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: of neolithic painting and uh and some of the theories

563
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: regarding it. Like it's one of these books that at

564
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: the end of the author, you know, has a bibliography

565
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: where she cites, uh, you know, about a dozen different

566
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: sources where you know she really researched, you know, the

567
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: the Shamans of prehistory for example, or you know, archaeology

568
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: of early Man, and there there's an insightful afterward about

569
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: her process here. So it's it's one of these books

570
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: that I highly recommend for anybody who has a you know,

571
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: a young reader in their household, or even if you don't,

572
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: if you just if you're just excited by a topic

573
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: like this, it's worth picking up. Katherine Lasky also, by

574
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: the way, you're not familiar with her, she's she's a

575
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: very well known children's author. She wrote The Guardians of

576
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: the hul book series. She also wrote The Night Journey,

577
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: which is about a Jewish family's escape from Russian pogroms

578
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: of the early twentieth century. And she also wrote True

579
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 1: North about the underground railroad. She's extremely prolific, uh and uh.

580
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: And so this book is it's still out there. You

581
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: should be able to pick up a copy or at

582
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: least pick up a used copy of it somewhere. Check

583
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: it out of your library. But I highly recommend it

584
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: touches on some of the topics we've discussed on the

585
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: show before as well. Yeah, I was just flipping through

586
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: it earlier before we started, and some of the illustrations

587
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: are very beautiful. There's like there's one where somebody's looking

588
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: up through a crack in a cave at somebody standing

589
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: above looking in. Yeah, that the sort of the the

590
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: whole plot line where she's she has to descend into

591
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: the cave and it's this you know, dangerous dark place

592
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: and has to find this this place where people in

593
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: her tribe have gone to create the art that you

594
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: know that has this this magical power. So that's the

595
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: children's selection of fourth for today's episode. Oh what have

596
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,239
Speaker 1: you got for us? Next? Joe? Al right, next is

597
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: back to another nonfiction book. This one is a book

598
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: by the British science writer Philip Ball published in ten

599
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: called Beyond Weird Again. I'm not going to read what

600
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: comes after the colon. The title is Beyond Weird. Now.

601
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: We've talked about some of Philip Ball's work on the

602
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: show before. He's written a lot about physics and chemistry. Robert.

603
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: I think we read a good article by him published

604
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: in Chemistry World about the supposed chemistry of the tomb

605
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: of Chin Chi Huong, the first Chinese import. But this book,

606
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: Beyond Weird is a book about quantum mechanics. And you

607
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: may think you know, I've read about quantum mechanics before.

608
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: It was very surprising at first, but I know all

609
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: this stuff now. If you're feeling like that, I think

610
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: you should reconsider and give this book a shot. I'm

611
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: pretty sure this is the best book on quantum physics

612
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: that I've read. A lot of writings on quantum physics

613
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: sort of acknowledge the apparent weirdness in the disconnect between

614
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: the uncertain, probabilistic world of quantum mechanics and the solid,

615
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: factual world that we seem to observe at our macroscopic scale,

616
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: and then they just sort of wave the hand and

617
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: move on right, Like it's very weird. Isn't that very

618
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: weird and interesting? Now let's get on with other stuff.

619
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: But beyond weird. Instead, basically it just gazes straight into

620
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: this apparent weirdness. It looks into the core of the

621
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: black hole. Uh not literally, it's not about black holes.

622
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: But I mean, I mean, you know, it's just like

623
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: it's like staring into the sun. It's kind of unbearable,

624
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: but it's fascinating for that reason. Tries to grapple with

625
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: the supposed weirdness directly. It of course deals with a

626
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: lot of common misconceptions about quantum mechanics that there's a

627
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: whole section of like it's not exactly right to say

628
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: that X is why about quantum mechanics And I'm like, oh,

629
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: you have said that um and but but the the

630
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: way he explains, uh, why these mis misconceptions are perpetuated

631
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: is very interesting. It also deals with the war between

632
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: the rival interpretations of of the theory of quantum mechanics,

633
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: which could mostly be thought of as ways of attempting

634
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: to resolve the apparent weirdness of quantum reality um. But

635
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: he looks at it with a kind of clarity and

636
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: focus that makes the book in my in my view,

637
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: totally unique and worthwhile I haven't read anything like this before.

638
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: It's really challenging, really truly mind bending, and I already

639
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: want to read it again. What do you feel how

640
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: would you recommend this to the just sort of the

641
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: average reader. Do you feel like someone needs to already

642
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: be somewhat versed in quantum mechanics, Did they have read

643
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: like should they be like a regular reader of quantum

644
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: mechanics related topics in science journalism? No, And I'd say

645
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: it's at the intermediate level. You know, it's not it's

646
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: not a book that's going to be super approachable to

647
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: like kids or people who don't know anything about physics.

648
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: And but at the same time, it's not you know,

649
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't require you to be a scientist obviously. It's

650
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: written for a popular audience, you know, So it's one

651
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: of those middle world books. It doesn't assume you have

652
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: any kind of specialized knowledge. It explains everything to you,

653
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: but it also is dealing with, you know, the most

654
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: complex subject matter in the world, probably literally so, so

655
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: it's not as approachable as some other books, but it

656
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: is a really, really Uh. I mean, it's a book

657
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: that captures the attention because it drives home the fact

658
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: like if you have read books about quantum physics before,

659
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: you felt the weirdness back then, and then you're like

660
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: you got used to it, and you're like, Okay, you know,

661
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: I know all this stuff now. I don't know which

662
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: interpretation is correct, but you know, I'm basically familiar with

663
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: the weirdness. It doesn't bother me anymore. This will make

664
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: it bother you again. That's a great thing. Like it

665
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: really really gazes directly into the source of of how

666
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 1: strange this feels to us, and it uh, it forces

667
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: you to deal with it, and you know, it points

668
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: out the fact that like this is what reality is.

669
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: I mean, quantum physics is one of the best theories

670
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: in all of science. It's totally predictive. We use it

671
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: for all kinds of stuff. It's not like you can

672
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: just pretend it doesn't exist and move on. I mean,

673
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: is telling something about telling us something fundamental about reality.

674
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: But what it's telling us, of course, is still up

675
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: for debate or how we should interpret what it's telling us.

676
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: And you've got to grapple with it if you want

677
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: to understand what you think reality is, just as a

678
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: kind of teaser. A lot of the definitions that the

679
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: ball ends up dealing with then and maybe seeming to

680
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: favor somewhat in the book are definitions of reality where

681
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: that that say, the most fundamental aspects of reality or

682
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 1: maybe not are maybe not facts and things, but probability

683
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: and information. Interesting. So do you foresee any future episodes

684
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: of stuff about your mind related to this content? Oh? Possibly? Yeah?

685
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: I mean um quantum physics is funny because I was

686
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: trying to think about how to put this. It's like

687
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: it's something that it's hard to do episodes about without

688
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: a visual aid, because you really need a visual aid

689
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 1: in order to correctly conjure the inappropriate misleading metaph wars

690
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: that you will ultimately use to try to explain the concept.

691
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like explanations of quantum mechanics often

692
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: fail at multiple levels at the same time, and some

693
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: of those failures you just sort of must be resigned

694
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: to them. Is it kind of you have to Is

695
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: it kind of like you have to have like an

696
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: incorrect version of what it is before you can like

697
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: refine that version. Like it's sort of I mean, yeah,

698
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: part of the problem is that, like quantum, quantum reality

699
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: is dealing with phenomenon that we have no analogies for whatsoever.

700
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: And so when you try to create an analogy to

701
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: illustrate it, you inherently bring along a lot of baggage

702
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: that is misleading. So you've got a few choices, like

703
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: you can try to picture it, which might give you

704
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: a sense of security because you're like, Okay, now I'm

705
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: trying to picture it, but now you've introduced a lot

706
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: of stuff that's sort of leading you off in the

707
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: wrong direction and causing you to partially misunderstand it. So

708
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: you can just back off and say, well, let's just

709
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: not even try to picture it. Let's just look at

710
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: them path and say, literally, what does it say? But

711
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,959
Speaker 1: then it doesn't feel like it's real. It doesn't feel

712
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: like it makes sense in the It's not gonna work

713
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: that way for everybody. Like certain mathematical minds are going

714
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: to maybe you know, take that approach a lot more

715
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: easier than the rest of us. Uh, And it just

716
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: hammers home the fact that, like the quantum world is real,

717
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: it's maybe more real than the macroscopic world that we're

718
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: used to. Uh. Maybe A good way to think about

719
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: it is our ability to picture things in the macroscopic

720
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: world is the illusion. It's an illusion that is our

721
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: best way of dealing with quantum reality as it presents

722
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: at the scale of our bodies. But it doesn't really

723
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: tell us what reality is. It's just sort of our

724
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: best approximation. Well, speaking of approximations of reality, um m my,

725
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: my next pick is another work of fiction, but it

726
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 1: is a short work of fiction. Uh So, if anyone

727
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: out there is like, I don't have time to read

728
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: an entire novel or you know, a lengthy book, well,

729
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: the good news is that this is a short story.

730
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: It is by Peter Watts, who we've mentioned on the

731
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: show before, and the short story is titled A Word

732
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: for Heathens and it's collected in the short story collection

733
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: from Watt's titled Beyond the Rift, which which is itself

734
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: a very cool little collection of tales, including it includes

735
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: his version of John Carpenter's The Thing retold from the

736
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: point of view of the thing which, in and of itself,

737
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: yes things to us, Yeah, And then that in and

738
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: in and of itself is a is a wonderful bit

739
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: of like biologically contemplative science fiction that I think it's

740
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: is certainly must read for anyone who is, you know,

741
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: a fan of of the thing h and also you know,

742
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: is inquisitive about you know, the nature of like an

743
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: alien consciousness, like what would that be? What would the

744
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: mind of the thing be? Like? Um, But this particular

745
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: story from that election A word for Heathens is about

746
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: an electro magnetism obsessed the ocracy that invokes the spiritual

747
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: experience of God via like god helmets and other technology.

748
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: But they also use electromagnetic technology for like trains and stuff,

749
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: and I consider like the holy power of their empire. Yeah,

750
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: so it's like it's Persinger's God helmet, but a crusade

751
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: for that religion, right, and then the Heathen religion that

752
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: they are so opposed to and or like fighting tooth

753
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: and Nail is is a society that uses psychedelic mushrooms

754
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: to invoke a spiritual sensation of of God or the divine.

755
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: But I think you could just look at that as

756
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 1: any like a version of natural religion. It's like the

757
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: technological religion has a crusade against the natural religion because

758
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: the natural religion is outside the true church, which is

759
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: a technological uh infrastructure. Yeah, so it's um, yeah, it's

760
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful set up. And then it's just such

761
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: a stunning and complete short story. Like it's one of

762
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: these these these rare short stories where I read it

763
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: and it leaves me wanting more, but knowing I probably

764
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: shouldn't have more. Like it's like the perfect dessert, you know,

765
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: where you're just like, I'm completely satisfied. Uh, you know,

766
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: part of me would would would want the part of

767
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: and part of me does want like the expanded novelization

768
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: of this this world from Watts. But on the other hand,

769
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: like the short story accomplishes everything, and I don't want

770
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: to give away the there's some twists and turns in

771
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: there because you basically, you know, fall into the perspective

772
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: of one of the crusaders and then you know, some

773
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: things happen, uh that that causes his his perception of

774
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: things to to to to switch around. But it's it's

775
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful, wonderful little short story. It would make

776
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: for an amazing episode of say Black Mirror, if they

777
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: ever wanted to do something that was a little more like, uh,

778
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: broader and more fantastic. I think it could it could

779
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: we could certainly fit into that world. Just a fair

780
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 1: warning on that. Like much of Peter watts work, I uh,

781
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: I do recall it being fairly disturbing. So yeah, it's

782
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,919
Speaker 1: it's it's disturbing. It's for adults, So it's for adults. Yeah,

783
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not as disturbing as some other things

784
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: he's written. But but but it's but yeah, but I

785
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: do want to say it's it's extremely good. If you're

786
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: looking for a really thought provoking short story, this one

787
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: is worth checking out. Absolutely agree. Yeah, alright, and Joe,

788
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: I believe you have one more selection before we uh

789
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: summon our guests. Well, I just want because I think

790
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: last year we sort of started a tradition of also

791
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 1: just talking about what we're reading now. So I already

792
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: mentioned the Stephen Graham Jones novel that I'm reading, which

793
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: is very weird and engrossing in its own right. But

794
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: I'm also reading another nonfiction book right now, which was

795
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: I think I think I started reading this because of

796
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: a recommendation from a listener a while back, but it's

797
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: been a while so I'm not positive about that. But

798
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: this one is called The Poison Squad by Deborah Blum,

799
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: published in two thousand eighteen. Um not quite finished with it,

800
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: but I thought I should mention it because it is

801
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: absolutely disgusting in a profound way. So it's a historical

802
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: account of the campaign for the earliest comprehensive food and

803
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 1: drug purity laws in the United States, and it centered

804
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: around a major figure in this process, which was the

805
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: American chemist Harvey Washington Wiley, who was one of the

806
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: most important researchers and crusaders from the late eighteen hundreds

807
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: through the early nineteen hundreds in this world of food

808
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: purity and food additives, and in this period in the

809
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: United States. According to Blum, you know, there was a

810
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: very little reason to believe that if you bought a

811
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: packaged food product or drug product, that it would actually

812
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: consist entirely or even mostly, or even at all of

813
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: the food or drug that was identified on the label.

814
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: Like whatever it did contain might have undergone maybe no,

815
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: maybe very little testing for safety. According to Bloom, there's

816
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: this whole thing about milk. She talks so like, if

817
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: you bought milk in the late eighteen hundreds, you might

818
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: be very likely to get bacterially contaminated milk. Thinned out

819
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: with unclean water colored like so the thinning it out

820
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: to stretch the milk further would give it a gross color,

821
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: might look gray. So then it would get colored with

822
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: chalk or something else to get rid of the weird color. Uh.

823
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: And then to simulate cream floating on top, which happens

824
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: with natural milk, you might get pure a calf brains

825
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: in there. And then because there's no refrigeration to keep

826
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: the milk fresh, it might have preservatives like formaldehyde or

827
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: borax um and so. And also at the time there

828
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 1: were just these problems with like candies and other color

829
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: enhanced foods containing dies a lot of diyes at the time,

830
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: or cold tar dies. But then also there would be

831
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: candy diyes made of arsenic or lead compounds that would

832
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: just sometimes kill children. Um. The parts about spices in

833
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: this book are hilarious, as like pepper might have a

834
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: significant or even majority constituency of floor sweepings and ground

835
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: up bits of charred rope. Coffee to coffee might be

836
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 1: what was it? I think maybe it's like charred sawdust

837
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: with all these additives. I mean, people were selling things

838
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: as food that was not food and was in many

839
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: cases not safe, and in a lot of cases there

840
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 1: just weren't comprehensive regulations that would prevent UH sellers from

841
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: doing that. And so so far in this book, one

842
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: thing I would say is that, uh, one thing that

843
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: I kind of wish is different is I wish it

844
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: dealt more with like modern scientific evaluations of additives of

845
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: the period. So we get like a lot of fascinating

846
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: stories about like crazy, crazy sounding preservatives and things like

847
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: formaldehyde and milk which people called himbalmed milk. Um, but

848
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: so far not a lot of sense of exactly like

849
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: how dangerous exactly these types of additives would have been

850
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: at the concentrations they were used by like modern food

851
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: safety experts, and not done yet. Maybe something like that

852
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: is coming up later on. But um. But even without

853
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: the context of like modern scientific analysis, it is a

854
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 1: fascinating and disgusting historical tale. And it's interesting reading about

855
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: the parallels to modern times because it's it's very familiar

856
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 1: the way that the food and drug manufacturers back then

857
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: fought against regulation, you know, saying that these attempts to

858
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: regulate their products were unconscionable, unacceptable attacks on liberty in

859
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: the free market. You know, this has given me a

860
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,479
Speaker 1: wonderful idea. So in the past, on Thanksgiving, we've tried

861
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: to do American Thanksgiving, we do a dangerous Foods episode,

862
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: and we've kind of in the I think all the

863
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: episodes in the past, we've mainly focused on like naturally

864
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: occurring food stuffs, be it like a fish or you know,

865
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: or some sort of you know, fun our floor, you

866
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: know that that we consume and the dangers of consuming

867
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: those things or that may have incorrectly been perceived to

868
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: be dangerous. Yes, so but maybe we should this this

869
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: is where we get another dangerous foods episode, or at

870
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: least one more where we talk about we we focus

871
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: on industrial food products of the past. So maybe maybe

872
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: look for that this Thanksgiving from stuff to blow your mind.

873
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: All right, Well, on that note, we're gonna take a

874
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: quick break and when we come back, we're gonna introduce

875
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: our guest. Thank thank Okay, we're back. It's time to

876
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: jump in with our interview with our guests, which we

877
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: actually recorded before the episode. So if anything sounds out

878
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: of order like we've gone through a time warp, we

879
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: we did. Yes, but this is going to be Christian Sayer,

880
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 1: former co host Stuff to Blow your Mind, current host

881
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: of the super Context podcast. We called him up, we said, hey,

882
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: we'd love to have you back on the show, uh,

883
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: to discuss summer reading, just like the old days. And

884
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: he said yes, and so we're gonna summon him onto

885
00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: the show right now. What's going on, Christian? Hi, I

886
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: am talking to you all the way from Portland, Oregon,

887
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: and you are currently in Atlanta, Georgia. Technology is cool. Huh. Yeah.

888
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 1: So before we got on Mike here, Christian was telling

889
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: us about how he's recording from a murder basement. Yeah. Yeah,

890
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: I moved into a house in northeast Portland and the

891
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: basement is a lot like Buffalo Bill's house in Silence

892
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: of the Lambs. You just go downstairs and then there's

893
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: just endless hallways and eventually instead of coming to a

894
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: pit in the floor, uh, there's my podcast studio. Well

895
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: it looks like a pretty cozy pit to me. Yeah,

896
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it's wonderful down here. I'm making it work.

897
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 1: I found a hobo spider down here the other day.

898
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: That's my only concern. Oh, were those the ones with

899
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: the huge legs? Yeah, they're really big. Uh. And it

900
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 1: seems debatable whether they're poisonous or not. I don't think

901
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: they wouldn't kill you or anything. It's not like a

902
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: brown rec loose, but I don't want to get bitten

903
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: by one. Fair enough, alright, So it seems like you

904
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: are going to share some book recommendations for Death of

905
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: the Summer along alongside ours today. Yeah, this is the

906
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: late summer reading. It happens every year we say we're

907
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: going to do summer reading and then pushing it later

908
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: and later Death of Summer, yea, the death Rattle of Summer.

909
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: There here are some books, okay, Yeah, I mean I'm

910
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: always reading, as you dudes know, and I had to

911
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: whittle it down to three things. I used to do

912
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: this when I was on the show with you guys.

913
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: I used to try to make it be one nonfiction book,

914
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: one fiction book, and then I would always throw a

915
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: graphic novel in there for good Matcher. Well, that's a

916
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: fair shake. I don't think we're going to do it

917
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: exactly that way today, but but yeah, that that that

918
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: helps us cover the range, especially since I don't think

919
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 1: either you or I are doing graphic novels this year.

920
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: I know I read like one one good graphic novel.

921
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: But you've sent it to me. Yeah, that's right, and

922
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: when I was done, I sent it to you. So yeah,

923
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: it's this graphic novel called Dull Margaret and it is

924
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: written by the actor Jim Broadbent. Oh, the art is

925
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: by an artist named Dix d i X and it's

926
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: published by Fantagraphics. I believe um, But yeah, I'm fascinated

927
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: by just the idea of a Jim Broadbent written graphic novel.

928
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 1: One of my favorite Jim Broadbent bits is in a

929
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: Hot Fuzz when he's running away and he makes the

930
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: lion roar. Jim Broadbent is so good. I think you

931
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: were actually telling me about this. Robert she said, I

932
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: had no idea he'd make a great actor, but uh,

933
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: of course he makes a great actor, would make a

934
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 1: great writer of graphic novels as well. But he he's

935
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: one of my favorite actors because he's like a human

936
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: version of the Chamberlin's skex Is from the Dark Crystal.

937
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: You know, his his entire face is that sound. But

938
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: he probably shouldn't diverge too much. But are you guys

939
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 1: watching the Netflix prequel? I haven't started yet. We're gonna

940
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: family um, oh, Simon Pegg, Yeah, I heard he's sort

941
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: of a standout. He's he's the Chamberlain new Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

942
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: I believe that the previous actor died many years ago.

943
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 1: But does he do the the the high pitched oh yeah,

944
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: oh yeah, definitely. It's it's a highly prominent Um. Yeah,

945
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: I recommend it. It's good so far. I'm only a

946
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: couple of episodes into it. But we're not here to

947
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: talk about television, guys. We're here to talk about books.

948
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: So I'll tell you about the graphic novel that I

949
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: selected that I've been reading this summer. It's called Schangra

950
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: Law and it is a science fiction graphic novel uh

951
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: from Europe. It is published by Ankara Editions, and it's written,

952
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: drawn and colored by Matteo Bablei or maybe it's mattau

953
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: Bable I can't really pronounce. Great. Yeah, I believe it's

954
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: like the French version of that um and it came

955
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: out in s And this is the most stuff to

956
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: blow your mind book I've read this summer, so I

957
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: definitely wanted to share it with you guys. Um, First

958
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: of all, the art, this guy's art is insane, like

959
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: he is this meticulous Draftsman, if you look up images

960
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: from it, you'll see that he does these impeccable backgrounds

961
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: that are all in really well detailed perspective because the

962
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: whole thing takes place on a space station that's orbiting

963
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: Earth and its way in the future, and uh so

964
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: you just get these wonderful long shots of people walking

965
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: down these like endless corridors on this massive space station.

966
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm looking up some art from it right now. So

967
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: is the space station Does it kind of have some

968
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: traditional architecture style, Like it doesn't look like a space

969
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: ship but more like, I don't know, old buildings in

970
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: the sky. Yeah. Inside, it's designed to be like an

971
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: ecosystem for the human race. So the plot of the book,

972
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: while the premise of the book is that there is

973
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: no longer inhabitable space on the planet Earth. People can't

974
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: live up there anymore, so they've all moved to this

975
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: space station and yeah, everything it's it's very kind of

976
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: like Blade Runner inside, like the architecture and what they

977
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 1: have for technology. But it is a pretty heavy criticism

978
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: of our current modern technology in that the culture on

979
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: the space station is all run by this big corporation

980
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: that owns the space station, and they are also the

981
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: corporation that makes like all the phones and gadgets and

982
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: stuff that the people have to distract themselves with on

983
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: board the ship. Uh. In the main plot is about

984
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: this I guess astronaut is the best term for him.

985
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: He's a scientist who the corporation basically hires to try

986
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to create a a like

987
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: alter alternate human race that is better than human and

988
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: is capable of functioning near the sun, living near the sun,

989
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: and uh, he finds out that he's kind of a

990
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: pawn in this whole game. And the other thing that's

991
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: really interesting about this world is that there are no

992
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 1: animals on board the ship because all the animals died

993
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: in whatever happened on Earth, so it's assumed to be

994
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: like climate change disaster and uh, but there are these

995
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: things called animoids that are human like, they're humanoids, but

996
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: they have the features of old animals. So there's like

997
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: dog animoids, cat animoids, I think there's like a fox

998
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: one um. And they are treated like the lower class

999
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: on this space station. So the humans are all kind

1000
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: of placated with their cell phones and then basically they

1001
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: take out all their aggression on these animoids and long

1002
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: story short, like the main character Scott finds out that

1003
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: things aren't the way that he thought they were. Uh,

1004
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: it's just it is in an amazing piece of work.

1005
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: It's just this big, massive story. The artwork is just

1006
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine how many hours went into

1007
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,399
Speaker 1: drawing this thing. It's gorgeous. I can't recommend it enough.

1008
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: And it's it's the perfect kind of science fiction in

1009
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: that it's really about today's problems with society told through

1010
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: the lens of this like you know, far reaching sci

1011
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: fi future. And is this a self contained, like single

1012
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: graphic novel? Is this a series? My understanding is itself contained?

1013
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: I have not seen anything about there being more stories

1014
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: in this. Uh. Sort of what you were talking about

1015
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: reminds me of the satirical role in the the implicit

1016
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: criticism of like capitalism that's in like Total Recall, where

1017
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: you know, Cohagen controls the entire environment on Mars, where

1018
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: you know, like it's a business, but it's through this

1019
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 1: business is the only way that you can get air

1020
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: that you breathe, and that that's always been an interesting

1021
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: potential I think of science fiction that you and like

1022
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: by removing people from Earth, you create these scenarios where

1023
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: whatever power, whatever the power structure is, this government or

1024
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: this business or whatever, controls the entire environment in which

1025
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 1: you can survive, whether that's a colony on another planet

1026
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 1: that's otherwise uninhabitable or a space station like in this

1027
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: graphic novel um And I feel like it kind of

1028
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: highlights the ways that we sort of have this illusion

1029
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 1: that like, you know, well, we're we're sort of free

1030
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 1: on Earth because like if we don't want to depend

1031
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: on governments and corporations, we could retreat to nature and

1032
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: survive and you know, we could just breathe the air

1033
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: and live off the land. I mean, whether that's actually

1034
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: feasible for a modern person is I guess more debatable,

1035
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: or you know, whether it's feasible like to actually that

1036
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: you could actually escape a society and you know, like

1037
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: in the developed world. But yeah, but what's a pure

1038
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: form of or more of an impure form of disruption

1039
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: than destroying the environment or taking humanity and moving into

1040
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: a place where there is no sustainable environment for our speech.

1041
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: And we've already partially done that, I mean in multiple ways,

1042
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 1: we've like sort of destroyed our ability to just like

1043
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: retreat to nature and say no, I opt out. But

1044
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: like this is taking that to the ultimate extreme. If

1045
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: you're on a space station or if you're on a

1046
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: colony on an uninhabitable planet, you literally can't opt out.

1047
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: It's just your survival is totally dependent on whoever owns

1048
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: whatever this environment is. Yeah, you guys are heading on

1049
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: exactly the heaviest theme in this story. Uh slight spoilers.

1050
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,439
Speaker 1: This isn't going to like ruin anything for anybody. But

1051
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,959
Speaker 1: the pivot point in the story is when the protagonist

1052
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: finds out that the corporation has been lying to them

1053
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: for at least a century now and that Earth is inhabitable.

1054
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 1: This is they've been keeping them on the space station

1055
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: so they can keep order and control. This is the

1056
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: same twist. I don't mean to diminish it because this

1057
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: does look great, but it's a solid twist. It's the

1058
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: exact same twist as Highlander to the Quickening. I mean,

1059
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: of course, it's it's well worth copying in a graphic

1060
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: novel from France. Of course Highland or two would be

1061
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 1: the inspiration for for the levels of the shield are normal. Yeah,

1062
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: but Basically they find out like, oh, we could have

1063
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: been living on Earth the whole time, and they that

1064
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: makes them even more conscious of how they've been controlled

1065
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: and placated and uh and uh basically, you know, society

1066
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: starts to unravel from there. Well, that sounds really interesting.

1067
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: I kind of want to check that out. What have

1068
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: you gotten next, Christian? Let's see, I'm going to save

1069
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: the best for last. I my fiction pick for this

1070
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: summer is something that I think some people think of

1071
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: as a classic, but I had never read it before.

1072
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: So I took the time to sit down and read

1073
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: Shirley Jackson's We Have Always Lived in the Castle nineteen

1074
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: sixty two mystery novel by her. Uh yeah, just last year,

1075
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: one of the books I recommended. Also, I guess I

1076
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: was hesitant about it be is it's a classic, I

1077
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: assume a lot of people have already read it. But

1078
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: the Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson. I read

1079
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: that for the first time last year's phenomenal, phenomenal ghost story. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So. Um,

1080
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: I read Haunting of Hill House and the Lottery like

1081
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: a lot of people in uh, you know, English classes

1082
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: in high school, and then I think I read a

1083
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: Hunting of Hill House in college, but I never got

1084
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: around to this one, and everybody said to me, oh,

1085
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: that's the best book by her. It's you know, it's

1086
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: heralded as being this real exemplar version of weird fiction.

1087
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 1: And so I wanted to figure out, you know what,

1088
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: what it was all about. Why why did everyone celebrate it?

1089
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: And so I finally sat down and read it. And

1090
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 1: it is a weird little story. It's not what I expected,

1091
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: especially based on reading her other stuff, but it's it's Um,

1092
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: I definitely recommend it. Um. The do you want me

1093
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: to tell you, guys the plot of this book? I

1094
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: haven't read this one. I'n't ready. Okay, I'll try not

1095
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: to go all the way through. I'll just give you

1096
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: the introductory plot. Um. So, there are these two sisters,

1097
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: Marrakat and Constance, and I believe they live in Vermont,

1098
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: in a small town in Vermont. It's based on the

1099
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: same town that Shirley Jackson was living in at the

1100
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: time that she wrote this. And the backstory is that

1101
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 1: their entire family was poisoned to death a few years

1102
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: previous to this, uh, and they were the only survivors

1103
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,959
Speaker 1: as well. As their uncle Julian, and Julian was poisoned

1104
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: but not enough to kill him, so now he's like

1105
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: he's bound to a wheelchair, and he also has some

1106
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: like pretty significant memory problems. But the girls and Julian

1107
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: basically stay in this house all the time, and it's

1108
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: ultimately this exploration of a gore phobia. I think Shirley

1109
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: Jackson was struggling with that at the time, and she

1110
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: felt like an outsider in this small town in Vermont,

1111
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: and so she was trying to process those feelings through

1112
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 1: this book. So Constance is a total of groa fo

1113
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: never leaves the house. Julian can't leave the house because

1114
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: he's bound by a wheelchair. So Marrakat, who's the youngest,

1115
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: she's like seventeen years old, she's the only one who

1116
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: ever leaves the grounds of the house. She usually just

1117
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: goes to town and like picks up their groceries and

1118
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: brings them back. And everybody in the town hates the people,

1119
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 1: the main characters of the book. They hate them because

1120
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: they're wealthy and because they live in like a big,

1121
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: nice house, but they also hate them because they've never

1122
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 1: solved the mystery as to who killed the rest of

1123
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: their family with the poison Christian. Have you played the

1124
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: the card game Gloom, because because this this sounds like

1125
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: you could have easily along with the Adams family and

1126
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: other you know, obvious references, could have been the inspiration

1127
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: for this. Oh no, I haven't played that. I just

1128
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: got a board game called gloom Haven. But I don't

1129
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 1: know if they're connected or not. I don't. This one

1130
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: has more of aston Edward Gory kind of style to it.

1131
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: But the whole premises that you you build. It's like

1132
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: a kind of a it's not quite a deck building game,

1133
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: I guess, but it's a your building. You're putting this

1134
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: family on the table there, and you just want horrible

1135
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: things to happen to them, and whoever whoever manages to

1136
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 1: like kill off their family first wins. But there are

1137
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: all these little details in the cards about all the

1138
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: horrible things that have happened, like the tragic nature of

1139
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: the family and the gothic nature of the family. But

1140
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 1: but it reminds me a lot of what you're describing here,

1141
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: Like this family could very well be played on the

1142
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: table and in a game of Gloom. Yeah. Absolutely, it

1143
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: sounds like if it wasn't influenced by by this, then

1144
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: maybe it was influenced by something that Shirley Jackson had

1145
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: influenced because she's so she's such a like strong presence

1146
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: and horror and mystery fiction, I think as a as

1147
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: an influence. Um, and it's yeah, it's it's like the

1148
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: Haunting of Hill House, Joe, and that it's very internal

1149
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: and it's a lot about the thoughts going through the

1150
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: main characters heads, uh and things. Basically, you know, the

1151
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 1: conflict point that caused things to change is that a

1152
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 1: cousin of theirs appears out of nowhere and moves in

1153
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: with them and wants to change things, wants to take

1154
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 1: advantage of the family fortune, and uh, you can see

1155
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,919
Speaker 1: a running theme here. Then things fall apart. So oh man,

1156
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: that the Haunting of Hill House also has a great

1157
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: like freeloader guy kind of character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Um.

1158
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: Haunting of Hillhouse is fascinating. Have you looked into those

1159
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: adaptations of it? No, I've actually been meaning to do

1160
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: a double feature one night to watch the nineteen sixty

1161
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: three film and then watch the nineteen or whenever it

1162
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: was the one with Katherine Zada Jones and Liam Neeson.

1163
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: I think that's the only one I've seen it had

1164
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: Owen Wilson, Yeah, Owen Wilson, Yeah, I've heard it's bad,

1165
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: but I kind of want to see it anyway because

1166
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: I love that like late nineties c g I horror phase.

1167
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: It's so it just does not hold up at all all,

1168
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: Like it's it's not as good as Thirteen Ghosts. That's

1169
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: how bad it is. Well, that's a good point. I

1170
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: actually like Thirteen Ghosts. Um. But I would point out

1171
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: that the trajectory of the adaptations of Haunting of Hillhouse

1172
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: have like sort of weaved into what's great about Shirley

1173
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: Jackson and then weaved out of it. Um. The early

1174
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 1: one is great because you never see anything. Oh, it's

1175
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 1: all done through what's behind the door. The door bulges,

1176
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: you hear scary noises on the other side of the door,

1177
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,919
Speaker 1: but everything's left to your imagination and then you're right Joe.

1178
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: In the nineties version, they just pulled out all the

1179
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: stops with c g I and there's like shape shifting

1180
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: statues and monsters and stuff in this Haunted house. It's ridiculous,

1181
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: but it's like the Mortal Kombat movie level of c

1182
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: g I. Yeah, yeah, exactly, UM, not for lack of trying,

1183
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: though the performances in it are great. What's her name,

1184
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: Lily Taylor plays the protagonist. Um. And then there's that

1185
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: most recent season of the TV show Haunt, The Haunting

1186
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: of Hill House on Netflix. Oh yeah, I haven't watched this,

1187
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: but I've heard it was only loosely based on the novel. Yeah,

1188
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 1: that's exactly right, So it's not connected to the novel.

1189
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: It has similar themes to the novel, but it's not

1190
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 1: the same plot at all. But I think you can

1191
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 1: see in that an attempt to merge the two things together,

1192
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: the like dreadful terror of the first one. And then

1193
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 1: there is a little bit of c G I like

1194
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: boo jump scare type stuff in the UM TV series

1195
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: as well. In the version of The Haunting of Hill House,

1196
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: I read there was actually an introduction or a preface

1197
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 1: or something that's some kind of piece of writing beforehand

1198
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: by Germo del Toro where he talked about his appreciation

1199
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: for the novel. And I remember it's been a little

1200
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: while now, but I vaguely recalled that he talked about, UM,

1201
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: the way that the house itself is written of like

1202
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: a predator in the natural world, the way that it functions,

1203
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: like a lion on the savannah or something that it

1204
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: tries to isolate and pick off weak members of the group. Yeah, yeah,

1205
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: I remember all that. That's great. Yeah, that's a really

1206
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: smart observation on his part. Um there is there are

1207
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: adaptations of We Have Always Lived in the Castle. In fact,

1208
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: just last year, I think a film version of it

1209
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: came out and it stars Sebastian stand Tisa Farmisia, Alexandra

1210
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: di Dario, and Crispin Gover Glover plays. Okay, yeah, I

1211
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: have not seen it. I'm hoping that they didn't inject

1212
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:40,439
Speaker 1: it with as much c g I as went into

1213
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 1: the nineties hunting Ville House. But yeah, it looks from

1214
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 1: watching the trailer, it looks very faithful to the book.

1215
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: Well I gotta read that one too, now, all right,

1216
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 1: so you have one more pick to share with us.

1217
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:53,919
Speaker 1: What what do you have and what is the classification

1218
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: on this one? All right? I saved the best for

1219
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: last because I know that this is something that you

1220
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: guys are going to be excited about. Because maybe the

1221
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: listeners aren't aware, but the three of us gentlemen used

1222
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 1: to sit together in a studio. I think it might

1223
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 1: be the same studio you're sitting in now and talk

1224
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 1: to the audience of stuff to blow your mind over

1225
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: Facebook every Friday. Yes, and this was a couple of

1226
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: years ago. We would uh, we would frame it around

1227
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 1: trailers for horror movies that we're connected to, the topics

1228
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: that we had, you know, been covering on the show

1229
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: that week, and one that always came up. We all

1230
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 1: agree that we love this movie. Is They Live, John Carpenters.

1231
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 1: They Live. So I got this book called They Live.

1232
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 1: A Visual and Cultural Awakening and it is. It's this

1233
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 1: amazing collection put together by Rough Trade Publications, And you

1234
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: can order the book through Mondo, although I think it

1235
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: might be sold out now. They like, I got like

1236
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: a second printing of it. They like every year release

1237
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 1: a couple of copies of it. Um and it is.

1238
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 1: It looks like a magazine like it looks like a big,

1239
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 1: thick like variety magazine type thing, because it's designed to

1240
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 1: look like the magazines on newsstand in They Live. So

1241
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: the front of it just says obey and big letters

1242
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 1: on it um. But inside it is it's a it's

1243
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 1: a proper book with just a bunch of content in

1244
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: it that's all related to the movie and trying to

1245
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: dissect the movie and better understand it. So Uh. It

1246
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: includes the original short story that the movie is based on,

1247
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: as well as the comic book adaptation that they also

1248
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 1: based it on, both of which were written by a

1249
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 1: guy named Rain Nelson. And then there are articles examining

1250
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: how things work in the movie, like um, gender roles

1251
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: or portrayals of capitalism, and they're written by people like

1252
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: John Grant, Slaboy, Jack Shepherd, Fairy, Roger Luckhurst, and someone

1253
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: named brandalism Um. Some of those may be familiar to Shepherd, Fairies,

1254
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: the guy who made the obey stickers. Uh. Does anybody

1255
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: explain the wrestling match in the middle of the movie.

1256
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: I want to scholarly dissertation on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1257
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 1: There is quite a bit of conversation I believe in

1258
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: uh John Grant's piece. I'm not sure which piece it was,

1259
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: but they do talk about that that epic wrestling match. Well, now,

1260
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: to be clear, it is a It is a It

1261
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: is a standard fisticuffs fight that has some wrestling moves

1262
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: incorporated into it. No, I think it is notable for

1263
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 1: how long it goes on like notable for its length,

1264
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: but but it's it's more like they're just a few

1265
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 1: spots that are incorporated into the action, you know, clearly

1266
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 1: because Roddy Roddy Piper is the star exactly. Y yeah,

1267
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: I mean just like every time you think the fight's over,

1268
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: it starts up again. And that's the quality it has.

1269
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 1: That's like a wrestling match. And the I think one

1270
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: of the things that stands out about it is that

1271
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: this is the This is an example of a fight

1272
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: in a Western motion pick sure, in which the fight

1273
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 1: actually tells a story. And you you see much more

1274
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 1: of that in um in like Hong Kong cinema, it's

1275
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: in Japanese cinema, etcetera. But in Western cinema, especially in

1276
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,799
Speaker 1: recent decades, it's it's all about just you know, slash

1277
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: cuts and a kind of a feeling of a fight

1278
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: happening without like the story of the fight. Yes, I agree,

1279
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 1: I hate most action movies because most action movies are

1280
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 1: boring because most fighting in movies is photographed in a

1281
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: way that is dramatically totally static, like there there's nothing

1282
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:37,720
Speaker 1: really at stake other than like, I guess somebody's gonna wine,

1283
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:42,600
Speaker 1: so in in in to whatever degree the fight and

1284
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 1: They Live resembles a wrestling match, I think it's I mean,

1285
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:47,839
Speaker 1: obviously it's part of it is because there are wrestling

1286
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 1: moves roddy roddy pipers there, but professional wrestling is a

1287
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 1: a fictional uh fight, like a physical performance that that

1288
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: should tell a story. So yeah, yeah, except it's it's

1289
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: a fight. Uh So I'm curious that you have what

1290
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 1: do wee they go into into this, like who who

1291
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: is responsible for that that battle appearing like it does

1292
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 1: in the film. So one of the essays in here,

1293
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,679
Speaker 1: I think it might be Craig Oldham's essay, Um, not sure,

1294
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: but one of the essays talks about that fight scene

1295
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 1: as being this great example of how difficult it is

1296
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 1: to pull yourself away from ideology and that um, if

1297
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 1: they Live is showing you what ideology is when you

1298
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,639
Speaker 1: put on the sunglasses. Then when rowdy roddy Piper goes

1299
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,520
Speaker 1: to Keith David and he says, hey, put on these glasses,

1300
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 1: and Keith David, no matter what, doesn't want to put

1301
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 1: those sunglasses on, to the point that he fist fights

1302
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 1: his friend for ten minutes in an alleyway uh. That

1303
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:53,879
Speaker 1: Their Their argument is is like, look, this is proof

1304
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 1: that it's extremely difficult to pull yourself out of, you know,

1305
01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 1: the culture that you live within and see it for

1306
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: something else. Um. And and that the fight is an

1307
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 1: example of that that, like the whole thing is Keith

1308
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 1: David is is fighting against kind of his instinct to

1309
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 1: he knows there's something else on the other side of

1310
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 1: the world, but he doesn't want to see what it is.

1311
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 1: It's interesting the way it portrays it almost like is

1312
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 1: an issue of like ego or dignity. It's like he

1313
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 1: you know, he won't stoop to putting the glasses on. Yeah,

1314
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 1: I mean when we we see that every day. I

1315
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 1: mean I think to a certain extent we see that

1316
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:30,759
Speaker 1: in ourselves too, you know. I mean with this, yeah,

1317
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 1: this this battle against the you know, the truth. I

1318
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 1: highly recommend this book because you know, I've I've loved

1319
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:40,639
Speaker 1: that movie since I was a kid, but this book

1320
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 1: points out things about it that I never realized even

1321
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 1: as an adult, you know. Um. Craig Oldham has this

1322
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: piece in there that is about how poverty in Los

1323
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 1: Angeles is portrayed in the film and apparently, like the

1324
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: camp that rowdy Roddy Piper lives in was a real

1325
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 1: homeless camp that was in l A at the time,

1326
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: and they used the actual, um, you know, people who

1327
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:11,880
Speaker 1: lived there as background actors and they live and apparently

1328
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: shortly after they shot this film, the city of Los

1329
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: Angeles tore it down. Well, isn't that what happens in

1330
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:21,080
Speaker 1: the movie that like that basically the people in the

1331
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 1: homeless camp are just being assaulted by the police and

1332
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 1: the developers that come through with big machinery and everything

1333
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 1: to just drive them out. Yeah, exactly. So they point

1334
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,879
Speaker 1: out that what you see in the movie eventually happens

1335
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:37,040
Speaker 1: in real life to camp. Um. I mean, you know,

1336
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 1: you can argue about the politics behind it or not,

1337
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 1: but the fact is is that, yeah, they were removed

1338
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:46,240
Speaker 1: from the city. Um. Yeah, I'm only about halfway through

1339
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 1: it and I'm just finding like every single piece in

1340
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: here is fascinating. Um. I never realized that it was

1341
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 1: based on a comic and so like a lot of

1342
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 1: the classic scenes that I remember from the movie are

1343
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 1: in this comic book that came out, you know, well

1344
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 1: before the movie was ever made. Um. But Carpenter apparently

1345
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: optioned it, you know, he saw it somewhere and he

1346
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I want to make something about that.

1347
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I think like the the overall argument

1348
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 1: of this big book is like, there's so much going

1349
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: on in John Carpenter movies that is under the surface

1350
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 1: and isn't over you know, commentary on society, and obviously

1351
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:26,360
Speaker 1: they live as one of the real big ones. There's

1352
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 1: all kinds of archived imagery in here, um from things

1353
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,679
Speaker 1: like the w w E. So you get some perspective

1354
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,639
Speaker 1: on rowdy Roddy Piper in it um, the relationship of

1355
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 1: uh this film to our current era and talking about

1356
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and like I don't know if you've seen

1357
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: the imagery that shows Trump, but he's got like the

1358
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 1: they live alien face stuff like that. Yeah, it's it's

1359
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 1: a it's a really interesting book. I mean, I would say, like,

1360
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 1: even if even if you weren't into the movie, which

1361
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 1: I can and imagine why you wouldn't be, Uh, there's

1362
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 1: a lot to learn here. Well. I do feel like

1363
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: it's one of those movies that that some people may

1364
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: have seen when they were younger and they may have

1365
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 1: been been like, Okay, that bubble gum line is really cool,

1366
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe they pick up on some of

1367
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 1: the you know, the thematic power of it. But it's

1368
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: also I think easy to dismiss it if you if

1369
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 1: you haven't, you know, given it a more thoughtful viewing. Well, yeah,

1370
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 1: it's one of those that you go three levels all

1371
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:29,599
Speaker 1: the way around on right, Like at first you're like, whoa,

1372
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 1: that movie blew my mind? And then the more sophisticated

1373
01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:36,600
Speaker 1: person says, actually, that's a very simplistic critique of society

1374
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 1: and the movies. You know, it's kind of it's full

1375
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 1: of cliches. You know, wake up sheeple. I mean, uh,

1376
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 1: but then if you get to the third level, you

1377
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 1: you you kind of come back all the way around

1378
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:49,400
Speaker 1: and say there is something kind of insightful and subtle

1379
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:52,559
Speaker 1: about it. Of course, the counter argument that might be

1380
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 1: that I feel like I go through all those three

1381
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 1: levels on terrible films. Oh yeah, films where they're probably

1382
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 1: there isn't really a third level there. But if I

1383
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:03,840
Speaker 1: if I think about it, and if I created I

1384
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,160
Speaker 1: think to some degree all three of us have that disease.

1385
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, certainly, I mean I do a whole show

1386
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 1: about that disease. But there is Yeah, I mean, what

1387
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:15,919
Speaker 1: were we talking about before we came on air Guardians

1388
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 1: of Gohole three phases with that film yet Robert Um, Well,

1389
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: like I said, I've I've only seen I've only seen

1390
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 1: it once. Uh, but but now I'm kind of interested

1391
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:28,800
Speaker 1: to check out the books, especially now that my my

1392
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 1: son's at the point where he could conceivably read him.

1393
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 1: I mean, he's reading all the Harry Potters so and

1394
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 1: he loves the animals. Who you know, thirty years from now,

1395
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 1: it might turn out that Guardians of Gohole was a

1396
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 1: commentary on capitalist ideology. Wait no, why did we talk

1397
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 1: about that? Is because somebody who the person who wrote

1398
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 1: it wrote something else. Oh yes, so the the So

1399
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 1: just to clarify for anyone listening, we're recording this interview

1400
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: before we recorded the part that you just previously heard.

1401
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:00,799
Speaker 1: So Christian wasn't wasn't here? And actually, yeah, I'm referring

1402
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:03,720
Speaker 1: to a conversation that Joe and I will have in

1403
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:07,639
Speaker 1: the future, but we have already had on this show.

1404
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, referring to stuff to blow your mind without

1405
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 1: me messing up time wise, not your fault, man, have. Yeah,

1406
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 1: the book in question here is the First Painter by

1407
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:22,639
Speaker 1: Katherine Lasky all right, well, Christian, before we send you

1408
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,639
Speaker 1: on your way, I thought we should take a moment

1409
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:29,599
Speaker 1: to talk about super context. Okay, yeah, sure. I do

1410
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: a podcast on my own now with my co host

1411
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 1: Charlie Bennett, who's also based in Atlanta near you guys,

1412
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 1: and it is we call it a podcast autopsy of media.

1413
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:43,240
Speaker 1: Every week we take a look at entertainment kind of

1414
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: like how we are just talking about they live, uh,

1415
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,879
Speaker 1: and we we do a deep dive into the research

1416
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:49,839
Speaker 1: on it and try to figure out how it informs

1417
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 1: everyday culture. So we look at things like film, television, prose, music,

1418
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: and comics. Um. Basically, we're trying to apply like a

1419
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 1: critical thinking lens to the entertainment world. What are some

1420
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 1: favorite episodes of yours from the past few months that

1421
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 1: people should check out? You know, you guys just caught

1422
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 1: us at the tail end of what we were calling

1423
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 1: Lovecraft Month. For a long time, we've said we'll never

1424
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,240
Speaker 1: do an episode on HP Lovecraft because Charlie and I

1425
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: both have strong feelings about his uh racism, and so

1426
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 1: what we decided to do instead to try to understand

1427
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:26,840
Speaker 1: his influence on pop culture was we did five episodes

1428
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: on things that are all tangentially related to to Lovecraft,

1429
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:33,640
Speaker 1: whether their adaptations or not. We did an episode that

1430
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:36,040
Speaker 1: just came out last week on the podcast Welcome to

1431
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 1: Night Veil, which was really really insightful. I learned a

1432
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: lot about the podcast industry from reading about those guys. Um.

1433
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 1: We did one on the video game call of cthulu

1434
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:47,680
Speaker 1: Dark Corners of the Earth. I don't know if you

1435
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: guys ever played that, Uh that there is a newer one.

1436
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,439
Speaker 1: This one came out in like two thousand five or six.

1437
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 1: The new Call of Cthula did just come out this year.

1438
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:01,560
Speaker 1: I think. We did one on the graphic novel Providence

1439
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 1: by Alan Moore and Jason Burrows, which is a real

1440
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:09,120
Speaker 1: deep dive into trying to unpack Lovecraft in his influence

1441
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:15,240
Speaker 1: on literature. He was from Providence, Rhode Island, right, yes, exactly. Um.

1442
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:17,680
Speaker 1: And then we did From Beyond, which you guys are

1443
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 1: well familiar with the Stewart Gordon film. And then the

1444
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 1: first one we did was about this novel that came

1445
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago and is about to

1446
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,440
Speaker 1: be made into an HBO TV series called Lovecraft Country,

1447
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:32,719
Speaker 1: and it's by Matt Ruff. Awesome Jordan Peel is producing

1448
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 1: the HBO series. The premise of Lovecraft Country is that

1449
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 1: an African American family in the nineteen fifties comes into

1450
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 1: contact with love crafty and stuff, but because they're so

1451
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:49,400
Speaker 1: accustomed to prejudice in everyday life already, the dreadful nature

1452
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 1: of all of Lovecraft's monsters aren't as effective. Interesting. Yeah,

1453
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:58,760
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting book. I I was hoping for

1454
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:02,719
Speaker 1: more from it, I'll be honest, but apparently the TV

1455
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 1: show all word about the TV shows sounds like they're

1456
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:08,719
Speaker 1: going to expand things so that it's a lot more interesting.

1457
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 1: And uh, anything coming up that you're particularly excited about,

1458
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 1: you can share any hints. We are about to publish

1459
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:17,680
Speaker 1: an episode probably by the time this comes out, Our

1460
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 1: episode on John Gardner's On Moral Fiction will be out.

1461
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:24,680
Speaker 1: Are you guys familiar with John Gardener? John Gardner, the

1462
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:28,000
Speaker 1: author of Grendel. Yes, that's exactly who it is. Yeah,

1463
01:19:28,040 --> 01:19:30,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I love Grendel, but I've I've never read

1464
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:33,560
Speaker 1: any of his other works. So in nineteen seventy nine

1465
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:36,800
Speaker 1: he published a nonfiction book called On Moral Fiction, and

1466
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:40,280
Speaker 1: it was this long. Some people call it a rant,

1467
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:43,920
Speaker 1: some people call it a treatise arguing that modern day

1468
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 1: fiction is immoral and that all art and fiction has

1469
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 1: the responsibility to be moral, and including the people who

1470
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 1: criticize art and fiction. And Gardner took a lot of

1471
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:01,479
Speaker 1: big name authors to task in that book, uh, and

1472
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:05,680
Speaker 1: really just ripped into them about why he thought that

1473
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: their work was bad and why it was bad for

1474
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:11,920
Speaker 1: modern culture and why it was, you know, slowing down

1475
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 1: the efforts of fiction in terms of like the human project. Uh.

1476
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 1: And so we sat down and just analyzed all the

1477
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,760
Speaker 1: arguments around it. We talked about it's publishing, We talked

1478
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 1: about how he wrote it, when we talked about how

1479
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:27,840
Speaker 1: all of these authors responded to it. So people like

1480
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:31,920
Speaker 1: Norman Mailer and Saul Bellow and Kurt Vonnegut, like all

1481
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 1: of them he attacked in this book, and essentially it

1482
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:39,639
Speaker 1: ruined his career. Uh. Within Like he couldn't get good

1483
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:42,200
Speaker 1: reviews for any of his books after this thing came out.

1484
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 1: And then he died in like this tragic motorcycle accident

1485
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,680
Speaker 1: and a couple of years later, I remember reading I've

1486
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:50,640
Speaker 1: read I've read about his death before. A lot of

1487
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:52,600
Speaker 1: the a lot of the articles point out since you

1488
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 1: mentioned Grendel. They point out that they see a lot

1489
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:58,200
Speaker 1: of parallels between his life and the way he depicts

1490
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 1: Grendel in that book. So I found it all really interesting.

1491
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 1: And I've never read Gardner before. Have you read Grendel?

1492
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 1: I have not. You should definitely read. I really recommend

1493
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: Grendel to to everyone. It's really just pick it up

1494
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 1: in your hands, and you will find yourself reading it,

1495
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:15,639
Speaker 1: and then you'll have you will have you find yourself

1496
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: having read it. It's uh, it's just one of those

1497
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:20,680
Speaker 1: books that just sucks you in. It's just so so

1498
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:22,680
Speaker 1: well written. You do you don't even have anyone out

1499
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:24,400
Speaker 1: there that you might you might be saying, well, I've

1500
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 1: never read Beyowolf from a familiar you don't. You don't

1501
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 1: need an Obayo wolf. If you if you know, be

1502
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 1: a wolf. Uh, you know you maybe you have a

1503
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 1: you know, a slide advantage. But h it's it's a

1504
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:36,880
Speaker 1: book that it just stands on its own. But is

1505
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: that it's it's Bayowolf from the perspective of the monster Grundle. Yeah,

1506
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:42,760
Speaker 1: and uh, and so it's this monster that lives on

1507
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 1: the you know, the yeah, the earth rim Romer, the

1508
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 1: very boundaries of the world. Uh, you know, commenting on

1509
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:55,120
Speaker 1: the nature of humanity and and and it really builds

1510
01:21:55,160 --> 01:21:57,800
Speaker 1: up Beaowolf. Is this you know, ultimately this just in

1511
01:21:57,920 --> 01:22:01,480
Speaker 1: human kind of monster like Baowolf is the monster of

1512
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:05,439
Speaker 1: the Grindel. Yeah, well that sounds very John Gardner, I'm

1513
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:08,559
Speaker 1: sure it's good. But it's also that's kind of how

1514
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:10,960
Speaker 1: he saw himself in a relationship to the rest of

1515
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 1: the world. It's a cautionary tale for sure. All right, well,

1516
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:16,840
Speaker 1: well let everybody know once more where they can find

1517
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:21,640
Speaker 1: super Context super context is. Our home base is Patreon,

1518
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:24,640
Speaker 1: dot com, slash super Context. We have a community of

1519
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:28,599
Speaker 1: listeners that participate there and that helps fund the show

1520
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:31,960
Speaker 1: as well. And you can download it wherever you get podcasts.

1521
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: Were on Apple, Google Play, Spotify. What are the other ones? Guys?

1522
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 1: Are you still doing those ad reads? But we've we've

1523
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 1: kept we can't even keep that. It's like it's like

1524
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:45,880
Speaker 1: naming all of the demons in a in any given

1525
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 1: a more. You know, you just you just have to

1526
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:52,400
Speaker 1: conjure them with a symbol and then bind them with candles.

1527
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 1: Just infernal legion, that's all. You just cover them all general,

1528
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:00,679
Speaker 1: we're on all of the Infernal Legion find us all

1529
01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 1: of the nine Kings of Hell. Well, thanks so much

1530
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,080
Speaker 1: for joining us today, Christian, it's been really fun. Thanks

1531
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 1: for having me. Guys, it was good to talk to you.

1532
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 1: I hope you're all doing well. And say hello to

1533
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 1: everybody else at the office. We'll do and and please

1534
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 1: enjoy the rest of your summer. I think there's what

1535
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:19,840
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks left, maybe a week left, a

1536
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,000
Speaker 1: couple of hours left. Yeah, I don't know when it

1537
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 1: officially ends, but here in Portland at September three, so

1538
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what day it is in Atlanta. You

1539
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 1: guys traveling backwards in time, Well, this episode is definitely

1540
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,680
Speaker 1: coming out after September three, so uh. At any rate,

1541
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 1: I think we were perhaps recorded it just in time

1542
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:40,640
Speaker 1: before the summer ended. Yeah, it's perfect. Everybody subscribe to

1543
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 1: super Context. Come on, all right, So there you have it,

1544
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:49,559
Speaker 1: another episode of of summer reading. Uh is in the books. Uh,

1545
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 1: just in time or maybe a little late, depending on

1546
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 1: on on on how you view summer. But at any rate,

1547
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 1: we did it, uh, and we'll try to do it

1548
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:00,920
Speaker 1: again next year, maybe a little earlier, so maybe in

1549
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:04,639
Speaker 1: less than a year you'll see another Summer Summer Reading

1550
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 1: episode about eight months in the meantime, if you would

1551
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:12,599
Speaker 1: like to check out past Summer Reading episodes, just past

1552
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:14,920
Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind in general, you

1553
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:16,639
Speaker 1: can find us at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1554
01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 1: You can also find the podcast uh anywhere you find

1555
01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:23,599
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Just shout out to the Infernal Legions and

1556
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 1: they will serve it to you. Um and uh yeah,

1557
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:29,040
Speaker 1: beyond that, I don't know. If you want to use

1558
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:32,600
Speaker 1: social media, you can, Um, you know the perils of

1559
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 1: doing that. Uh you've listened to the show, but um,

1560
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:38,640
Speaker 1: you know that's that's your choice. That's not that's not

1561
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:42,040
Speaker 1: ours to make for you. Don't passive aggressively shame them, Robert, No,

1562
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:44,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm I also shaming myself. This is

1563
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:47,719
Speaker 1: our this is our shame as a as a people.

1564
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:51,920
Speaker 1: Uh so we all share in it. But anyway, yes,

1565
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 1: they're there social media accounts for Stuff to Plow your Mind.

1566
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:57,599
Speaker 1: To do with them what you will. Um, let's see

1567
01:24:57,640 --> 01:24:59,800
Speaker 1: what else. Uh yeah, But the main thing is if

1568
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:01,559
Speaker 1: you to support the show, the best thing you can

1569
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 1: do is, yeah, I don't can mess with social media.

1570
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:06,000
Speaker 1: Just rate and review the show. Wherever you get it

1571
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:09,360
Speaker 1: huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producers, Maya

1572
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:12,240
Speaker 1: Cole and Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to

1573
01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:14,639
Speaker 1: give us a feedback on this episode or any other,

1574
01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, for just to

1575
01:25:16,960 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

1576
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:31,599
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your

1577
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 1: Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works.

1578
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart

1579
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:38,840
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1580
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 1: favorite shows.