Speaker 1: BBCGDAS. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before
Speaker 1: we start. The series does contain some descriptions of violence
Speaker 1: and deals with adult themes. We're live at the Harris
Speaker 1: County Criminal Courthouse.
Speaker 2: Channel twos.
Speaker 3: Lee for Lishi is joining us live downtown with what
Speaker 3: we're learning from the courtroom as we wait for a
Speaker 3: verdict in this case.
Speaker 1: Lee, So, the jury is expected to deliberate for only
Speaker 1: a few more minutes until about five point fifteen, then
Speaker 1: they'll be back at it again tomorrow morning. It's a
Speaker 1: hot and humid afternoon in late August twenty seventeen, and
Speaker 1: the court reporters wait en mass for the climax to
Speaker 1: a story they've been following for years.
Speaker 4: Jen, we are on verdict watch in the case against
Speaker 4: fifty seven year old Sandra Melgar. The jury started deliberating
Speaker 4: yesterday evening, continued to deliberate this morning, and in fact,
Speaker 4: just moments ago, took a break. This is a case.
Speaker 1: After seven and a half hours split over two days,
Speaker 1: the jury reached a verdict in the State of Texas
Speaker 1: versus Sandra Jean Melgar. As they file back into the courtroom,
Speaker 1: Liz scrutinizes their faces looking for clues.
Speaker 5: When they all were called back after they reach their verdict,
Speaker 5: I already knew why because people were crying. There were
Speaker 5: a few people who were crying. To me, I was like,
Speaker 5: you're not going to cry if you're going to say
Speaker 5: someone's not guilty.
Speaker 1: Sandy's attorney, Max Seacrest, is also studying each member of
Speaker 1: the jury.
Speaker 6: Normally, if you're going to prevail, they'll look at you.
Speaker 6: They may even grin. Like this jury came in, not
Speaker 6: one of them looked us in the eye.
Speaker 1: With everyone back in the courtroom, one of the jurors
Speaker 1: hands a slip of paper to the bailiff, who passes
Speaker 1: it to the judge. They've reached a unanimous verdict. The
Speaker 1: defend Sandra Jean Melgar, is ordered to stand. She shakily
Speaker 1: moves to her feet, her body supported by her thin
Speaker 1: wooden cane. The judge clears her throat and reads from
Speaker 1: the slip of paper. We the jury find the defendant,
Speaker 1: Sandra Jean Melgar, guilty of murder as charged in the indictment.
Speaker 1: Sandy lets out a cry of disbelief and falls back
Speaker 1: into her chair. For Sandy's friends and family, it feels
Speaker 1: like the oxygen has been stripped from the room.
Speaker 6: They were devastated, crying and it was just a horrible day.
Speaker 1: There's Sandy's niece Marissa, who was there when she was found.
Speaker 7: My heart just sunk into my stomach. I could not
Speaker 7: believe this was happening to her because there was just
Speaker 7: no way, no way. We knew, we knew that they
Speaker 7: got it wrong.
Speaker 1: There's Tammy Armstrong, who consoled Sandy after her police interview.
Speaker 2: We're in such shock and I mean dead silence when
Speaker 2: they read that verdict.
Speaker 1: And there's Diana, the cousin who was more like a sister.
Speaker 8: Sandy started crying immediately, Liz started crying. We all started crying.
Speaker 8: Liz ran to her to give her like one last
Speaker 8: time before they left, before they took her away, and
Speaker 8: then as soon as that happened, Liz fell to the ground.
Speaker 1: For Liz, it's all a blur, like something out of
Speaker 1: a horrible nightmare.
Speaker 5: It just felt like an out of body experience. And
Speaker 5: I just remember, like my husband just like grabbed onto
Speaker 5: me really tightly, and it's like holding onto me and
Speaker 5: hugging me, and I kept telling her like it's gonna
Speaker 5: be okay, like we're going to figure it out. I
Speaker 5: had no idea what I was doing, or like what
Speaker 5: I was even saying, or what that meant.
Speaker 1: What do you remember how your mom took it?
Speaker 5: I mean she was just in tears.
Speaker 2: She was just.
Speaker 5: I mean, it was devastating for everybody.
Speaker 1: But it's not over yet. It's down to the jury
Speaker 1: to decide how long Sandy will spend in prison, and
Speaker 1: there's a chance she'll never get out. I'm Maggie Robinson
Speaker 1: Katz And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. This is
Speaker 1: Hands Tied, episode seven, after Shock.
Speaker 2: I think I had heard enough, felt enough that I
Speaker 2: truly believe that she did it.
Speaker 1: You remember Aaron Day, he was on the jury.
Speaker 2: The didn't had the ability to do it, even though
Speaker 2: she doesn't remember doing it. I think that was a
Speaker 2: convenient defense. Oh I forgot or I don't remember.
Speaker 1: One of the first things they did when they entered
Speaker 1: the jury room was take a quick count. They'd heard
Speaker 1: the prosecution, they heard the defense. Who did they believe.
Speaker 1: Five of the jurors thought Sandy was guilty, four innocent,
Speaker 1: and three were undecided.
Speaker 2: I was on the guilty side. From the moment we
Speaker 2: sat down, we talked about it. We were each given
Speaker 2: time to discuss our feelings and our position. There was
Speaker 2: a lot of I don't know, I need to think through.
Speaker 2: There was so much information and there were some people going, yes,
Speaker 2: she did it. She was say no, she didn't.
Speaker 1: And then how did you come to reach the unanimous verdict?
Speaker 2: We looked at a lot of the evidence again, we
Speaker 2: looked at a lot of the discussion, We read transcripts,
Speaker 2: we went over testimony, how we felt about the testimony.
Speaker 1: Together, the jurors workshopped Sandy's future.
Speaker 2: What evidence could prove that she is innocent of the crime.
Speaker 2: There was hardly nothing there. That's why we kept going
Speaker 2: to the guilty. She was there and she had the
Speaker 2: time and ability to do it, and the ones that
Speaker 2: were unsure listened to us, they changed their mind and
Speaker 2: they deemed her guilty. And so then we had to say, well,
Speaker 2: we'll have to tell the world how we feel.
Speaker 1: So what does Aaron think happened that night?
Speaker 2: Witnesses painted them as a happy couple to the public,
Speaker 2: but I don't think she was ever really happy because
Speaker 2: all the attention that was paid to her husband. He
Speaker 2: was an elder within the church, and being a Latin American.
Speaker 2: He was very charismatic. I think the murder was an accident.
Speaker 2: I don't think she purposely tried to murder him, but
Speaker 2: I think that anger, after years of feeling that way
Speaker 2: and not discussing it, came out in this alcohol and
Speaker 2: drug filled rage, and it went too far and she
Speaker 2: killed it.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm surprised to hear Aaron say this, because when
Speaker 1: I wrote the court documents, I'm not sure the evidence
Speaker 1: supports that theory. Sure, Sandy did drink that night. She
Speaker 1: said she had a pina colada with her meal and
Speaker 1: two Vodkas in sprite in the jacuzzi, but also told
Speaker 1: detectives that she didn't finish the second one. But drugs,
Speaker 1: she was all like.
Speaker 2: A myriad of like two. I think we're are two
Speaker 2: very mental drugs for her. Lupus are very powerful drugs.
Speaker 2: And then she had the migraine medicine, which in my
Speaker 2: mind would be one that you don't drink alcohol with.
Speaker 2: But that night they had been out drinking.
Speaker 1: Did they go through the various medications that she was
Speaker 1: on in the side effect that they could have.
Speaker 8: No.
Speaker 2: I don't think the defense or prosecution brought any of
Speaker 2: that up. They just mentioned that she was on drugs.
Speaker 1: But what about what was said in court? If this
Speaker 1: is a case about stories, it seems the prosecutions made
Speaker 1: more sense to Aarin. Sandy was unhappy, she needed to
Speaker 1: get out of her marriage, and therefore resorted to murder,
Speaker 1: while the defense's argument of a home invasion gone wrong
Speaker 1: just didn't add up.
Speaker 2: They failed to tell me or make me believe she
Speaker 2: didn't do it. So I'm like, oh, you're not offering
Speaker 2: me any Oh, yeah, there was somebody that came in
Speaker 2: the house, Well prove it. Where's your proof? Do you
Speaker 2: have any video that shows somebody going to the house,
Speaker 2: any footprints, any fingerprints, any evidence that somebody was there?
Speaker 2: Did the body have anything on it? The prosecution and
Speaker 2: the investigators found.
Speaker 1: Nothing to Max Seacrest, Sandy's defense attorney. This is a
Speaker 1: fundamental misunderstanding of the justice system. Innocent until proven guilty.
Speaker 1: The burden of prooflies with the prosecution. It's for them
Speaker 1: to prove someone is guilty, not the defense to prove
Speaker 1: their innocence.
Speaker 6: I don't want to ditch a jury. I respect their
Speaker 6: verdict here, but I obviously don't agree with it. I
Speaker 6: can't fathom how a group of folks conscientiously could believe
Speaker 6: beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution had proved its case.
Speaker 3: I mean, this is an absolute tragedy.
Speaker 1: Alison Seacrest, Max niece and fellow attorney.
Speaker 3: She lost the love of her life, her best friend,
Speaker 3: her caretaker. I mean, Jim took care of her, He
Speaker 3: drove her around. There were times where she couldn't even
Speaker 3: drive because of her seizure disorder and the impact that
Speaker 3: this had on her daughter and not being able to
Speaker 3: see her grandchildren grow up. I mean, it's just really wrong.
Speaker 1: What went wrong in the trial? Then?
Speaker 6: You know that's Uh, that's only a question that Alison
Speaker 6: and I ask ourselves every day. I rarely have a
Speaker 6: day that I don't think about Sandy. Uh. And it's
Speaker 6: it's hard, it's hard to answer.
Speaker 1: Max's voice catches. He takes a moment to compose himself.
Speaker 1: It's clear the whole trial has taken a toll on him,
Speaker 1: and he's still trying to make sense of how it
Speaker 1: all played out. The impact of the choices he made.
Speaker 1: Walk me through the decision to not bring Sandy on
Speaker 1: the stand to give evidence.
Speaker 6: Well, that is an area that I really can't discuss
Speaker 6: because of attorney client privilege, but I will say this,
Speaker 6: it was our belief before we tried the case. It's
Speaker 6: our belief now that obviously she had no burden. So
Speaker 6: that was a decision made by us, by the lawyers.
Speaker 5: I said, maybe you should testify, and she said, I'll
Speaker 5: have a seizure on the stand. I can't because she
Speaker 5: gets when she's stressed, you know, or too tired, doesn't
Speaker 5: get enough sleep, you know, she will have a seizure.
Speaker 5: I said, no, just have a seizure, Just let them
Speaker 5: see it. Like they don't believe you, Just stop picking
Speaker 5: your medicine and have a seizure. She's like, no, I
Speaker 5: don't want to prolong this any longer.
Speaker 2: I often wonder how I would have felt that she
Speaker 2: did take the stand and said I didn't do it,
Speaker 2: look at the jury and say I didn't do it.
Speaker 2: Was that assuade me? It might have. I mean, I
Speaker 2: can't tell because she didn't choose to tell me directly.
Speaker 2: She did not murder her husband.
Speaker 1: And though hindsight is always easier in the rear view mirror,
Speaker 1: Sandy and her defense team have to look to the
Speaker 1: future embrace for the jury sentencing. It's the day after
Speaker 1: Sandy was found guilty. We're back in the courtroom and
Speaker 1: it's time for sentencing. Her attorney, Maxycres, asks for leniency.
Speaker 1: He describes Sandy as a good, caring, loving wife with
Speaker 1: no criminal history and innocent of the crime she's been
Speaker 1: convicted of.
Speaker 9: And that's exactly why we're here today, because they drank
Speaker 9: the kool aid of Sandra Melgar.
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Colleen Barnett, her word, spoken by an actor, requests
Speaker 1: an appropriate sentence for someone she believes as a calculating killer.
Speaker 9: She's even manipulated her lawyers. She's manipulated her church group,
Speaker 9: She's manipulated most of the people that she goes around
Speaker 9: with who believe that she is in.
Speaker 2: When they made us decide how many years in prison
Speaker 2: she had to spend, there was a lot of controversy there,
Speaker 2: being in her age and being her physical illnesses. Some
Speaker 2: people wanted to give her the minimum time, some people
Speaker 2: wanted to give her the maximum time.
Speaker 1: There is a minimum of five years in prison, with
Speaker 1: the maximum sentence being life. But Sandy is fifty seven
Speaker 1: years old, so there's a very real chance she could
Speaker 1: die in prison.
Speaker 2: So we ended up somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 1: Sandy melgar Is sentenced to twenty seven years behind bars.
Speaker 1: How did that feel hearing the sentencing of twenty seven years?
Speaker 5: They felt that twenty seven years was showing her mercy
Speaker 5: because with good behavior, you can get out in half
Speaker 5: the time, So that would be like thirteen and a
Speaker 5: half years, and so they felt that she would be
Speaker 5: like seventy something and she could still have some time
Speaker 5: with her grandchildren before she died, and that that was
Speaker 5: their bit of mercy for her.
Speaker 1: To Liz, if Sandy was guilty, mercy would be the
Speaker 1: last thing on her mind if she's guilty.
Speaker 5: If she was guilty, why would I want to spend
Speaker 5: time with her? Why would I want her in my house?
Speaker 5: Why would I want her around me or my kids?
Speaker 5: I wouldn't. There's no way in hell.
Speaker 1: Was there any hope you had during the trial process
Speaker 1: that she wouldn't be convicted?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I mean I thought it was really open and shit case.
Speaker 5: I thought that they would present the evidence and they
Speaker 5: would people would see what it was and they would
Speaker 5: let her go. You know, we thought we were all
Speaker 5: going to go home after that.
Speaker 1: Liz leaves the courtroom without her mom while Sandy is
Speaker 1: taken to her cell.
Speaker 5: And then you know, having to go home and explain
Speaker 5: to my daughter because she's like running down the stairs
Speaker 5: and she's like, where's Nana. I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 5: I can't.
Speaker 1: Nearly five years after Jim's death, Sandy begins her sentence.
Speaker 1: She's taken to the William P. Hobby Unit, a women's
Speaker 1: prison between Houston and Dallas.
Speaker 5: It was known as Hobby Hell. I've never heard her
Speaker 5: more terrified.
Speaker 1: Sandy's cousin Diana ficit's as often as she can.
Speaker 8: Hobby was an extremely scary place. Sandy got threatened, she
Speaker 8: got verbally abused, Like even my sister and I when
Speaker 8: we would go visit. It was a scary place just
Speaker 8: to go into. The guards were, I don't know, very
Speaker 8: hard and cold.
Speaker 1: She's eventually moved to a women's medical facility.
Speaker 8: Carol s Young, I feel better that she's at a
Speaker 8: medical unit. We there's still a lot of crazy stories
Speaker 8: that Sandy tells us. You know, there's still drama happening,
Speaker 8: there's still fights, but I no longer feel that her
Speaker 8: life is in danger, Whereas in Hobby I thought we
Speaker 8: could get a phone call eighty day say, Sandy's gone
Speaker 8: because somebody got in a fight. She was in the
Speaker 8: wrong place, wrong time.
Speaker 1: Sandy may be in a better place, but prison is
Speaker 1: still prison.
Speaker 5: All I can think about is my mom laying on
Speaker 5: this like hard prison bed, and she's alone and suffering
Speaker 5: in prison. And I get to I get to travel,
Speaker 5: and I get to be with my kids, and I
Speaker 5: get to do as I please. It just seems wolly unfair.
Speaker 1: Sandy is still at the medical facility today. I really
Speaker 1: wanted to interview her in person or even just by phone,
Speaker 1: but my request was denied by the authorities. So I
Speaker 1: write to her. I introduced myself and ask her if
Speaker 1: she'd be okay answering some questions over prison email. A
Speaker 1: couple weeks later, I get a response. She tells me
Speaker 1: about the weather, writing, we actually had some snow last week.
Speaker 1: That's unheard of in Texas, especially so close to the Gulf.
Speaker 1: We only got about eight inches, but that's a lot here. Lol.
Speaker 1: Sandy's warm in her messages, almost light as well as
Speaker 1: the occasional lol. There's an old school emoji, you know,
Speaker 1: the one colon in a parenthesis making a smiley face.
Speaker 1: In one email, I tell her I went to go
Speaker 1: visit Liz in London, but don't hear back for a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. So I send another and then another,
Speaker 1: and then I finally hear back from her. She tells
Speaker 1: me she's been called into the supervisor's office to discuss
Speaker 1: our messages. She writes, they question me about the podcast.
Speaker 1: I told them that I had already informed you that
Speaker 1: it wasn't allowed, and I told them to look at
Speaker 1: my replies to you. They already had, but they still
Speaker 1: wanted to question me.
Speaker 2: Ha.
Speaker 1: She goes on to detail her day to day life
Speaker 1: in prison and how difficult it is. Breakfast is at
Speaker 1: four am, so I don't go because I can't sleep.
Speaker 1: But three or four hours at night, it's very noisy
Speaker 1: and things are going on at all hours. You can
Speaker 1: hear the inmates talking or arguing in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night, or the banging of the bathroom doors, or
Speaker 1: the officer yelling for one of the inmates to get
Speaker 1: up for one reason or another. I'm not in a cell.
Speaker 1: We are in cubicles, so it's all open to noise
Speaker 1: and nosy people looking in to see what you have
Speaker 1: or what you are doing. Zero privacy. In another message,
Speaker 1: she tells me about her memories of Jim, responding to
Speaker 1: a question I had asked weeks before. I have many
Speaker 1: great memories of Jim, from the time we first met
Speaker 1: in high school. His sense of humor, his corny jokes,
Speaker 1: which we call Jim jokes. He was a person always
Speaker 1: willing to help in whatever way he could. He could
Speaker 1: do just about anything, and if he didn't know how,
Speaker 1: he would learn. Except for cook, he couldn't cook at all.
Speaker 1: I miss him terribly and dream of him often. We
Speaker 1: had been married thirty two years, and I know we
Speaker 1: would still be together if this terrible ordeal had not happened.
Speaker 1: It's an awful nightmare that I haven't woken up from.
Speaker 1: All I can do is continue to pray and remain hopeful.
Speaker 1: I reach out again. I have to ask her if
Speaker 1: she killed Jim and what she thinks happened. I know
Speaker 1: it's my job, but after this message, I kind of
Speaker 1: can't help but feel like an asshole. If she didn't
Speaker 1: do it like she claims, this is just putting salt
Speaker 1: on the wound that she's in prison for a murder
Speaker 1: she didn't commit, and if she did, well, I guess
Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel bad about asking her if she did.
Speaker 1: Sandy eventually writes back no, she writes in capitals, then
Speaker 1: goes on to repeat some of what she already told
Speaker 1: me that she and Jim had a great relationship, adding
Speaker 1: that they had plans to travel, go see the Northern Lights,
Speaker 1: visit Ireland, see Machu Picchu in Peru. In many ways,
Speaker 1: me writing to Sandy isn't your typical interview. In fact,
Speaker 1: it really isn't an interview at all. I have so
Speaker 1: many questions about what happened that night in December and
Speaker 1: how her version differs from what we heard in the trial.
Speaker 1: But there's no real back and forth. But you know,
Speaker 1: in the end, it actually really doesn't matter what I think.
Speaker 1: It's up to the legal system, and right now Sandy's
Speaker 1: defense team are refusing to give up.
Speaker 6: We contended that, you know, the verdict was based on
Speaker 6: conjecture and speculation, not evidence sufficient to establish her guilt
Speaker 6: beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 1: After the shock of losing the trial, Sandy's attorneys Mac
Speaker 1: and Allison ccrest regroup and decide to fight on. They're
Speaker 1: determined to write what they see as a miscarriage of
Speaker 1: justice and get Sandy's verdict overturned.
Speaker 6: We're personally wrapped up in it, and we take it personally.
Speaker 6: We know Sandy, we believe in Sandy, and we take
Speaker 6: it personally because we're in the middle of it. We're
Speaker 6: part of the process, and so we've never you know.
Speaker 1: Shirked that they call for a retrial, but the request
Speaker 1: is denied. A panel of three judges uphold Sandy's conviction,
Speaker 1: ruling that there was enough evidence to convict her. But
Speaker 1: Mac fights on and takes the case to the Texas
Speaker 1: Court of Criminal Appeals.
Speaker 5: Oh yay, oh yay, oh yay.
Speaker 7: The Honorable Court of Criminal Appeals is now in session.
Speaker 8: We're ready to hear an argument.
Speaker 1: Almost four years after Sandy's conviction, Mac seacrest is back
Speaker 1: in court. Well sort of.
Speaker 10: Good morning to the court. I'm George McCall, say christ junior.
Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty one. You know, you remember the pandemic
Speaker 1: and because of it, Mac is presenting his arguments to
Speaker 1: a panel of nine senior judges.
Speaker 10: Over zoom, I don't believe the evidence that you have
Speaker 10: shows that the state proved that Sandy Milgar killed her husband.
Speaker 10: The state proved that she was present.
Speaker 1: Each of the nine judges appear in their own box
Speaker 1: on the screen, MAC in another, and then there's a
Speaker 1: digital timer in a box all of its own. MAC
Speaker 1: has twenty minutes for his arguments. A red light will
Speaker 1: warn him when his time is up.
Speaker 10: He was viciously assaulted, he was beaten, consistent with being
Speaker 10: hit with a fist, consistent with being kicked. It's just
Speaker 10: not plausible under the circumstances that she could have caused
Speaker 10: that type of injury.
Speaker 1: As the timer ticks down, he tells what's now a
Speaker 1: familiar story. Matt goes through the prosecution's case, arguing it
Speaker 1: was built on conjecture, not fact.
Speaker 10: It doesn't even approach that which can safely say comports
Speaker 10: with the rudimentary requirements a due process of law.
Speaker 1: The timer light turns red and alarm buzzes, signifying his
Speaker 1: time is up.
Speaker 2: Thank you, counseled. The court will stand in recess until
Speaker 2: ten o'clock.
Speaker 1: He signs off zoom and waits.
Speaker 6: They sat on it, and sat on it, and then
Speaker 6: ultimately they dismissed the case.
Speaker 1: That was in June twenty twenty two. So in Layman's terms,
Speaker 1: what does that mean?
Speaker 6: That means we lost on appeal and ultimately the court
Speaker 6: did not reduce Sandy's case, so her conviction is affirmed.
Speaker 6: What it means is as far as her quote unquote
Speaker 6: direct appeal is concerned, it's exhausted.
Speaker 1: I asked Liz how her mom felt about the judge's decision.
Speaker 5: She really got her hopes up, and I kept telling her, like,
Speaker 5: you know, ninety percent of the time, this is going
Speaker 5: to get to and I don't want you to like
Speaker 5: fall into despair if that happens. And of course that happened,
Speaker 5: and she just it really hit her, you know, she
Speaker 5: sent her to severe depression.
Speaker 1: This really hits Liz too. She feels like she's lost
Speaker 1: both of her parents, and now the legal process is
Speaker 1: all over. She no longer has the case to distract
Speaker 1: her from her feelings of grief.
Speaker 5: Like I had basically obsessed over the case file, Like
Speaker 5: when I reached the end, I would just start all
Speaker 5: over and see what I'd missed, or I would blow
Speaker 5: up all the photos on my computer and look inch
Speaker 5: by inch, like all over to see if there were
Speaker 5: any clues, missed, any evidence. I don't know if that
Speaker 5: was like shock or just knowing that these things had
Speaker 5: to be done and I didn't have time to break down.
Speaker 1: Liz finds SLF at rock bottom.
Speaker 5: Once everything got handed over and there was nothing left
Speaker 5: to do, that's when it got difficult. And that's I
Speaker 5: think when I realized I had really bad PTSD. I
Speaker 5: don't even feel human anymore. I miss the person that
Speaker 5: I used to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's okay to talk about, Like, what are
Speaker 1: some of the things, like you remember about how you
Speaker 1: used to be contrasting with how you are now?
Speaker 8: I am. I was very social.
Speaker 5: I could talk my way in or out of any situation.
Speaker 1: I could still see that now, to be honest, Like,
Speaker 1: I can totally see that now.
Speaker 5: But like now I just hate being around big.
Speaker 3: Groups of people.
Speaker 5: I don't trust anyone. I just feel like I'm not
Speaker 5: fun anymore. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's almost like I've died. Do you ever allow yourself
Speaker 1: to feel hope?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 8: No.
Speaker 1: The ricochet effect of any crime can create fallout, impacting
Speaker 1: the lives of not just those who were directly involved,
Speaker 1: but they're family and friends. It's not only Liz who
Speaker 1: has been impacted, it's all of Sandy and Jim's friends
Speaker 1: and relatives, including her cousin Diana.
Speaker 8: Anytime I see a cop car behind me, like I
Speaker 8: have a bodily reaction, like I start sweating, I start
Speaker 8: I just I have that fear. And even same thing
Speaker 8: with Houston, like I used to love Houston because Sandy
Speaker 8: and Jim were there. I loved it, And now I
Speaker 8: see the downtown skyline and it turns my stomach because
Speaker 8: I have the memories of the trial. I was one
Speaker 8: of those people that I would hear people say, you
Speaker 8: know that people in jail claim they didn't do it right,
Speaker 8: Like I'm innocent. I'm innocent, And I've always thought like, yeah, right,
Speaker 8: like you're in jail for a reason. I didn't believe
Speaker 8: it until this happened to Sandy.
Speaker 1: And Melissa's cousin Marissa, who was there the day Jim
Speaker 1: was found. To this day, Uncle Jim is still a
Speaker 1: central part of her life.
Speaker 7: I have his ashes actually on a counter in my restroom,
Speaker 7: and so I whenever I need some advice, live advice,
Speaker 7: because that's what my uncle was really good at, just
Speaker 7: life in general. Whenever I'm feeling down, whenever anything really
Speaker 7: happy news, I just go to his ashes and I
Speaker 7: start talking to the box. And I know that might
Speaker 7: sound weird to some people, but it just makes me
Speaker 7: feel like he's with us, and he is.
Speaker 1: I know he's with us. What's that expression? The darkest
Speaker 1: hour is just before the dawn. Well, Max Seacrest hasn't
Speaker 1: quite given up. He picks up the phone and makes
Speaker 1: one last call, one last throw of the dice, one
Speaker 1: last attempt to help Sandy. But it's a slim chance.
Speaker 1: The man he's calling might not be able to help them. Dang,
Speaker 1: he might not even pick up the phone.
Speaker 11: I did not know him, so it was kind of
Speaker 11: a cold call.
Speaker 1: The person mac rings is Mike Ware, a criminal defense lawyer.
Speaker 11: He talked about how much this case meant to him
Speaker 11: and how there was no doubt in his mind that
Speaker 11: Sandy was completely innocent.
Speaker 1: Mike founded an organization in Texas which has got forty
Speaker 1: people exonerated since two thousand and six.
Speaker 11: He knew of us in our work and wanted us
Speaker 11: to take on the case.
Speaker 1: Mike Ware helps people who are all out of options,
Speaker 1: but he only takes on a fraction of the cases
Speaker 1: that come to him. Will he take on Sandy's.
Speaker 11: We have to, through whatever means, be convinced absolutely that
Speaker 11: they are in fact, absolutely innocent, And by that I
Speaker 11: mean that either the crime they were convicted of occurred
Speaker 11: pretty much as the police, the witnesses, the prosecution says
Speaker 11: it happened. It's just they are not the ones who
Speaker 11: committed it. It was someone else, or in some cases,
Speaker 11: no crime at all was committed by anyone.
Speaker 1: That's next time on hands Tide. You've been listening to
Speaker 1: Hands Tide from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes
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Speaker 1: help us by spreading the word or giving us a
Speaker 1: five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer
Speaker 1: is Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell.
Speaker 1: Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from
Speaker 1: Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our
Speaker 1: production executive is Laura Jordan Raul. The series was developed
Speaker 1: by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw at iHeart. The managing
Speaker 1: Executive producer is Christina Everett, and for BBC Studios, the
Speaker 1: executive producer is Joe Kent. James Cook is the Creative
Speaker 1: Director a Factual for BBC Studios Audio and the Director
Speaker 1: of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.