WEBVTT - Episode 7 - Aftershock 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:09.800 BBCGDAS. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.800 we start. The series does contain some descriptions of violence 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:20.640 and deals with adult themes. We're live at the Harris 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:22.160 County Criminal Courthouse. 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:22.360 Channel twos. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.080 Lee for Lishi is joining us live downtown with what 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.160 we're learning from the courtroom as we wait for a 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:28.080 verdict in this case. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.760 Lee, So, the jury is expected to deliberate for only 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.040 a few more minutes until about five point fifteen, then 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:37.800 they'll be back at it again tomorrow morning. It's a 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:42.440 hot and humid afternoon in late August twenty seventeen, and 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.320 the court reporters wait en mass for the climax to 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.600 a story they've been following for years. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.280 Jen, we are on verdict watch in the case against 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.560 fifty seven year old Sandra Melgar. The jury started deliberating 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.240 yesterday evening, continued to deliberate this morning, and in fact, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.000 just moments ago, took a break. This is a case. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.440 After seven and a half hours split over two days, 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.640 the jury reached a verdict in the State of Texas 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.520 versus Sandra Jean Melgar. As they file back into the courtroom, 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.280 Liz scrutinizes their faces looking for clues. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.360 When they all were called back after they reach their verdict, 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:24.760 I already knew why because people were crying. There were 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.800 a few people who were crying. To me, I was like, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:29.720 you're not going to cry if you're going to say 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:30.720 someone's not guilty. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:36.039 Sandy's attorney, Max Seacrest, is also studying each member of 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:37.280 the jury. 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.840 Normally, if you're going to prevail, they'll look at you. 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.440 They may even grin. Like this jury came in, not 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.080 one of them looked us in the eye. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.000 With everyone back in the courtroom, one of the jurors 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.800 hands a slip of paper to the bailiff, who passes 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:59.560 it to the judge. They've reached a unanimous verdict. The 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:05.120 defend Sandra Jean Melgar, is ordered to stand. She shakily 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.200 moves to her feet, her body supported by her thin 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.320 wooden cane. The judge clears her throat and reads from 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.600 the slip of paper. We the jury find the defendant, 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:23.360 Sandra Jean Melgar, guilty of murder as charged in the indictment. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.760 Sandy lets out a cry of disbelief and falls back 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:35.440 into her chair. For Sandy's friends and family, it feels 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.200 like the oxygen has been stripped from the room. 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:45.400 They were devastated, crying and it was just a horrible day. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.359 There's Sandy's niece Marissa, who was there when she was found. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.520 My heart just sunk into my stomach. I could not 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.560 believe this was happening to her because there was just 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.280 no way, no way. We knew, we knew that they 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:02.880 got it wrong. 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:08.359 There's Tammy Armstrong, who consoled Sandy after her police interview. 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.320 We're in such shock and I mean dead silence when 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:13.360 they read that verdict. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.520 And there's Diana, the cousin who was more like a sister. 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:23.680 Sandy started crying immediately, Liz started crying. We all started crying. 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.720 Liz ran to her to give her like one last 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:32.000 time before they left, before they took her away, and 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.640 then as soon as that happened, Liz fell to the ground. 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.200 For Liz, it's all a blur, like something out of 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:42.520 a horrible nightmare. 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.920 It just felt like an out of body experience. And 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.640 I just remember, like my husband just like grabbed onto 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:51.840 me really tightly, and it's like holding onto me and 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.640 hugging me, and I kept telling her like it's gonna 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.920 be okay, like we're going to figure it out. I 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:00.880 had no idea what I was doing, or like what 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:02.800 I was even saying, or what that meant. 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:06.600 What do you remember how your mom took it? 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.640 I mean she was just in tears. 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:11.320 She was just. 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.880 I mean, it was devastating for everybody. 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.719 But it's not over yet. It's down to the jury 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.880 to decide how long Sandy will spend in prison, and 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:32.359 there's a chance she'll never get out. I'm Maggie Robinson 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:37.159 Katz And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. This is 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:42.279 Hands Tied, episode seven, after Shock. 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.680 I think I had heard enough, felt enough that I 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.360 truly believe that she did it. 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.839 You remember Aaron Day, he was on the jury. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:03.279 The didn't had the ability to do it, even though 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.240 she doesn't remember doing it. I think that was a 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.200 convenient defense. Oh I forgot or I don't remember. 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.200 One of the first things they did when they entered 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.160 the jury room was take a quick count. They'd heard 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.799 the prosecution, they heard the defense. Who did they believe. 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.800 Five of the jurors thought Sandy was guilty, four innocent, 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:25.840 and three were undecided. 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.000 I was on the guilty side. From the moment we 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.600 sat down, we talked about it. We were each given 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:36.000 time to discuss our feelings and our position. There was 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.599 a lot of I don't know, I need to think through. 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.599 There was so much information and there were some people going, yes, 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.080 she did it. She was say no, she didn't. 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.200 And then how did you come to reach the unanimous verdict? 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:49.480 We looked at a lot of the evidence again, we 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.720 looked at a lot of the discussion, We read transcripts, 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.240 we went over testimony, how we felt about the testimony. 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.240 Together, the jurors workshopped Sandy's future. 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.760 What evidence could prove that she is innocent of the crime. 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.320 There was hardly nothing there. That's why we kept going 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.520 to the guilty. She was there and she had the 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.200 time and ability to do it, and the ones that 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:20.360 were unsure listened to us, they changed their mind and 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.320 they deemed her guilty. And so then we had to say, well, 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:25.599 we'll have to tell the world how we feel. 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.279 So what does Aaron think happened that night? 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:34.599 Witnesses painted them as a happy couple to the public, 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.120 but I don't think she was ever really happy because 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.240 all the attention that was paid to her husband. He 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.960 was an elder within the church, and being a Latin American. 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:49.720 He was very charismatic. I think the murder was an accident. 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:52.839 I don't think she purposely tried to murder him, but 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.360 I think that anger, after years of feeling that way 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.200 and not discussing it, came out in this alcohol and 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.800 drug filled rage, and it went too far and she 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:04.200 killed it. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.360 Honestly, I'm surprised to hear Aaron say this, because when 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.760 I wrote the court documents, I'm not sure the evidence 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:17.520 supports that theory. Sure, Sandy did drink that night. She 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.840 said she had a pina colada with her meal and 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.640 two Vodkas in sprite in the jacuzzi, but also told 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.440 detectives that she didn't finish the second one. But drugs, 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:28.160 she was all like. 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.080 A myriad of like two. I think we're are two 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:36.520 very mental drugs for her. Lupus are very powerful drugs. 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.320 And then she had the migraine medicine, which in my 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.200 mind would be one that you don't drink alcohol with. 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.800 But that night they had been out drinking. 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.240 Did they go through the various medications that she was 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.320 on in the side effect that they could have. 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:52.840 No. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.560 I don't think the defense or prosecution brought any of 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.640 that up. They just mentioned that she was on drugs. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.440 But what about what was said in court? If this 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.240 is a case about stories, it seems the prosecutions made 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.840 more sense to Aarin. Sandy was unhappy, she needed to 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.720 get out of her marriage, and therefore resorted to murder, 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.559 while the defense's argument of a home invasion gone wrong 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:20.760 just didn't add up. 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.480 They failed to tell me or make me believe she 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.360 didn't do it. So I'm like, oh, you're not offering 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.080 me any Oh, yeah, there was somebody that came in 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.280 the house, Well prove it. Where's your proof? Do you 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.760 have any video that shows somebody going to the house, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:40.880 any footprints, any fingerprints, any evidence that somebody was there? 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.079 Did the body have anything on it? The prosecution and 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:45.439 the investigators found. 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:50.600 Nothing to Max Seacrest, Sandy's defense attorney. This is a 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:56.280 fundamental misunderstanding of the justice system. Innocent until proven guilty. 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.280 The burden of prooflies with the prosecution. It's for them 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.840 to prove someone is guilty, not the defense to prove 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:05.719 their innocence. 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.559 I don't want to ditch a jury. I respect their 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.280 verdict here, but I obviously don't agree with it. I 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:20.640 can't fathom how a group of folks conscientiously could believe 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:26.280 beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution had proved its case. 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.160 I mean, this is an absolute tragedy. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.160 Alison Seacrest, Max niece and fellow attorney. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.520 She lost the love of her life, her best friend, 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.320 her caretaker. I mean, Jim took care of her, He 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.520 drove her around. There were times where she couldn't even 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.800 drive because of her seizure disorder and the impact that 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:55.320 this had on her daughter and not being able to 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.520 see her grandchildren grow up. I mean, it's just really wrong. 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:03.800 What went wrong in the trial? Then? 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.200 You know that's Uh, that's only a question that Alison 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:13.640 and I ask ourselves every day. I rarely have a 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:19.840 day that I don't think about Sandy. Uh. And it's 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:21.520 it's hard, it's hard to answer. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:28.440 Max's voice catches. He takes a moment to compose himself. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.400 It's clear the whole trial has taken a toll on him, 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.040 and he's still trying to make sense of how it 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.360 all played out. The impact of the choices he made. 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:46.000 Walk me through the decision to not bring Sandy on 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:47.480 the stand to give evidence. 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.800 Well, that is an area that I really can't discuss 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:56.360 because of attorney client privilege, but I will say this, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.439 it was our belief before we tried the case. It's 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.880 our belief now that obviously she had no burden. So 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.800 that was a decision made by us, by the lawyers. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.520 I said, maybe you should testify, and she said, I'll 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.200 have a seizure on the stand. I can't because she 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:18.360 gets when she's stressed, you know, or too tired, doesn't 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:20.560 get enough sleep, you know, she will have a seizure. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.280 I said, no, just have a seizure, Just let them 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.760 see it. Like they don't believe you, Just stop picking 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.280 your medicine and have a seizure. She's like, no, I 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:29.600 don't want to prolong this any longer. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.600 I often wonder how I would have felt that she 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:35.840 did take the stand and said I didn't do it, 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:37.679 look at the jury and say I didn't do it. 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.679 Was that assuade me? It might have. I mean, I 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.400 can't tell because she didn't choose to tell me directly. 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.120 She did not murder her husband. 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.280 And though hindsight is always easier in the rear view mirror, 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.280 Sandy and her defense team have to look to the 0:11:55.320 --> 0:12:09.400 future embrace for the jury sentencing. It's the day after 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:13.679 Sandy was found guilty. We're back in the courtroom and 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:20.200 it's time for sentencing. Her attorney, Maxycres, asks for leniency. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.560 He describes Sandy as a good, caring, loving wife with 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.880 no criminal history and innocent of the crime she's been 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:30.680 convicted of. 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.720 And that's exactly why we're here today, because they drank 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:37.520 the kool aid of Sandra Melgar. 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.720 Prosecutor Colleen Barnett, her word, spoken by an actor, requests 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:47.760 an appropriate sentence for someone she believes as a calculating killer. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:53.720 She's even manipulated her lawyers. She's manipulated her church group, 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.800 She's manipulated most of the people that she goes around 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.240 with who believe that she is in. 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.240 When they made us decide how many years in prison 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.400 she had to spend, there was a lot of controversy there, 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.720 being in her age and being her physical illnesses. Some 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.760 people wanted to give her the minimum time, some people 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:16.120 wanted to give her the maximum time. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.840 There is a minimum of five years in prison, with 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.000 the maximum sentence being life. But Sandy is fifty seven 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.120 years old, so there's a very real chance she could 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:28.920 die in prison. 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.360 So we ended up somewhere in the middle. 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.760 Sandy melgar Is sentenced to twenty seven years behind bars. 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.200 How did that feel hearing the sentencing of twenty seven years? 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:52.000 They felt that twenty seven years was showing her mercy 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:57.400 because with good behavior, you can get out in half 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.719 the time, So that would be like thirteen and a 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.960 half years, and so they felt that she would be 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.959 like seventy something and she could still have some time 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.600 with her grandchildren before she died, and that that was 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:11.920 their bit of mercy for her. 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.160 To Liz, if Sandy was guilty, mercy would be the 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.400 last thing on her mind if she's guilty. 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.200 If she was guilty, why would I want to spend 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.400 time with her? Why would I want her in my house? 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.280 Why would I want her around me or my kids? 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.720 I wouldn't. There's no way in hell. 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:37.080 Was there any hope you had during the trial process 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:38.640 that she wouldn't be convicted? 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:39.880 Yeah? 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.960 I mean I thought it was really open and shit case. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.880 I thought that they would present the evidence and they 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.560 would people would see what it was and they would 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:52.640 let her go. You know, we thought we were all 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:53.680 going to go home after that. 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.800 Liz leaves the courtroom without her mom while Sandy is 0:14:58.840 --> 0:14:59.960 taken to her cell. 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:05.440 And then you know, having to go home and explain 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.080 to my daughter because she's like running down the stairs 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.040 and she's like, where's Nana. I was like, oh my god, 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:17.280 I can't. 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.440 Nearly five years after Jim's death, Sandy begins her sentence. 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:29.920 She's taken to the William P. Hobby Unit, a women's 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.640 prison between Houston and Dallas. 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.440 It was known as Hobby Hell. I've never heard her 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:37.240 more terrified. 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.640 Sandy's cousin Diana ficit's as often as she can. 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:48.120 Hobby was an extremely scary place. Sandy got threatened, she 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.960 got verbally abused, Like even my sister and I when 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.480 we would go visit. It was a scary place just 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:59.320 to go into. The guards were, I don't know, very 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:01.520 hard and cold. 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.640 She's eventually moved to a women's medical facility. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.280 Carol s Young, I feel better that she's at a 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.520 medical unit. We there's still a lot of crazy stories 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.000 that Sandy tells us. You know, there's still drama happening, 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.560 there's still fights, but I no longer feel that her 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.520 life is in danger, Whereas in Hobby I thought we 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.640 could get a phone call eighty day say, Sandy's gone 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.200 because somebody got in a fight. She was in the 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:32.400 wrong place, wrong time. 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.560 Sandy may be in a better place, but prison is 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:37.480 still prison. 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.360 All I can think about is my mom laying on 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:45.760 this like hard prison bed, and she's alone and suffering 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.480 in prison. And I get to I get to travel, 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.400 and I get to be with my kids, and I 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.440 get to do as I please. It just seems wolly unfair. 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.960 Sandy is still at the medical facility today. I really 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.320 wanted to interview her in person or even just by phone, 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.520 but my request was denied by the authorities. So I 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.000 write to her. I introduced myself and ask her if 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.359 she'd be okay answering some questions over prison email. A 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.600 couple weeks later, I get a response. She tells me 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:29.439 about the weather, writing, we actually had some snow last week. 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.840 That's unheard of in Texas, especially so close to the Gulf. 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.000 We only got about eight inches, but that's a lot here. Lol. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.639 Sandy's warm in her messages, almost light as well as 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.320 the occasional lol. There's an old school emoji, you know, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.960 the one colon in a parenthesis making a smiley face. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.320 In one email, I tell her I went to go 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.080 visit Liz in London, but don't hear back for a 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.200 couple of weeks. So I send another and then another, 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.680 and then I finally hear back from her. She tells 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.680 me she's been called into the supervisor's office to discuss 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:12.480 our messages. She writes, they question me about the podcast. 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.040 I told them that I had already informed you that 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.040 it wasn't allowed, and I told them to look at 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.080 my replies to you. They already had, but they still 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:20.960 wanted to question me. 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:21.560 Ha. 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.520 She goes on to detail her day to day life 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.239 in prison and how difficult it is. Breakfast is at 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.560 four am, so I don't go because I can't sleep. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.240 But three or four hours at night, it's very noisy 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.320 and things are going on at all hours. You can 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.159 hear the inmates talking or arguing in the middle of 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.320 the night, or the banging of the bathroom doors, or 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.800 the officer yelling for one of the inmates to get 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.640 up for one reason or another. I'm not in a cell. 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.959 We are in cubicles, so it's all open to noise 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.760 and nosy people looking in to see what you have 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:05.760 or what you are doing. Zero privacy. In another message, 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.040 she tells me about her memories of Jim, responding to 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:14.000 a question I had asked weeks before. I have many 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.600 great memories of Jim, from the time we first met 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.439 in high school. His sense of humor, his corny jokes, 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:25.120 which we call Jim jokes. He was a person always 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.359 willing to help in whatever way he could. He could 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.879 do just about anything, and if he didn't know how, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:35.160 he would learn. Except for cook, he couldn't cook at all. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.879 I miss him terribly and dream of him often. We 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.119 had been married thirty two years, and I know we 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.760 would still be together if this terrible ordeal had not happened. 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.520 It's an awful nightmare that I haven't woken up from. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.760 All I can do is continue to pray and remain hopeful. 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.040 I reach out again. I have to ask her if 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:06.359 she killed Jim and what she thinks happened. I know 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.879 it's my job, but after this message, I kind of 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.159 can't help but feel like an asshole. If she didn't 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.600 do it like she claims, this is just putting salt 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:17.760 on the wound that she's in prison for a murder 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.400 she didn't commit, and if she did, well, I guess 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.960 I shouldn't feel bad about asking her if she did. 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:32.920 Sandy eventually writes back no, she writes in capitals, then 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:34.960 goes on to repeat some of what she already told 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:39.000 me that she and Jim had a great relationship, adding 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.359 that they had plans to travel, go see the Northern Lights, 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:48.639 visit Ireland, see Machu Picchu in Peru. In many ways, 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.320 me writing to Sandy isn't your typical interview. In fact, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.919 it really isn't an interview at all. I have so 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.600 many questions about what happened that night in December and 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.560 how her version differs from what we heard in the trial. 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.119 But there's no real back and forth. But you know, 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:11.720 in the end, it actually really doesn't matter what I think. 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:16.960 It's up to the legal system, and right now Sandy's 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.400 defense team are refusing to give up. 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.200 We contended that, you know, the verdict was based on 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:29.439 conjecture and speculation, not evidence sufficient to establish her guilt 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:30.560 beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.840 After the shock of losing the trial, Sandy's attorneys Mac 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:50.440 and Allison ccrest regroup and decide to fight on. They're 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.439 determined to write what they see as a miscarriage of 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.600 justice and get Sandy's verdict overturned. 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.520 We're personally wrapped up in it, and we take it personally. 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.160 We know Sandy, we believe in Sandy, and we take 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.600 it personally because we're in the middle of it. We're 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.600 part of the process, and so we've never you know. 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:17.080 Shirked that they call for a retrial, but the request 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:21.400 is denied. A panel of three judges uphold Sandy's conviction, 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:25.960 ruling that there was enough evidence to convict her. But 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.840 Mac fights on and takes the case to the Texas 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:30.879 Court of Criminal Appeals. 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:34.440 Oh yay, oh yay, oh yay. 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.679 The Honorable Court of Criminal Appeals is now in session. 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:39.439 We're ready to hear an argument. 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:44.400 Almost four years after Sandy's conviction, Mac seacrest is back 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.960 in court. Well sort of. 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.679 Good morning to the court. I'm George McCall, say christ junior. 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:55.480 It's twenty twenty one. You know, you remember the pandemic 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.919 and because of it, Mac is presenting his arguments to 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:00.800 a panel of nine senior judges. 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.159 Over zoom, I don't believe the evidence that you have 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:08.680 shows that the state proved that Sandy Milgar killed her husband. 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:11.200 The state proved that she was present. 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:14.520 Each of the nine judges appear in their own box 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:18.240 on the screen, MAC in another, and then there's a 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.480 digital timer in a box all of its own. MAC 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.880 has twenty minutes for his arguments. A red light will 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:26.480 warn him when his time is up. 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:32.119 He was viciously assaulted, he was beaten, consistent with being 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:36.199 hit with a fist, consistent with being kicked. It's just 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.280 not plausible under the circumstances that she could have caused 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:42.160 that type of injury. 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:45.719 As the timer ticks down, he tells what's now a 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:50.800 familiar story. Matt goes through the prosecution's case, arguing it 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:53.840 was built on conjecture, not fact. 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:59.679 It doesn't even approach that which can safely say comports 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:03.280 with the rudimentary requirements a due process of law. 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:08.320 The timer light turns red and alarm buzzes, signifying his 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:09.360 time is up. 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:14.160 Thank you, counseled. The court will stand in recess until 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:14.679 ten o'clock. 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:18.639 He signs off zoom and waits. 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:23.400 They sat on it, and sat on it, and then 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:25.480 ultimately they dismissed the case. 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:30.720 That was in June twenty twenty two. So in Layman's terms, 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:31.480 what does that mean? 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:35.840 That means we lost on appeal and ultimately the court 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:40.879 did not reduce Sandy's case, so her conviction is affirmed. 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:44.160 What it means is as far as her quote unquote 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:47.880 direct appeal is concerned, it's exhausted. 0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.560 I asked Liz how her mom felt about the judge's decision. 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:56.000 She really got her hopes up, and I kept telling her, like, 0:24:56.280 --> 0:24:59.600