1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: BBCGDAS. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: we start. The series does contain some descriptions of violence 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: and deals with adult themes. We're live at the Harris 4 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: County Criminal Courthouse. 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: Channel twos. 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 3: Lee for Lishi is joining us live downtown with what 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 3: we're learning from the courtroom as we wait for a 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 3: verdict in this case. 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: Lee, So, the jury is expected to deliberate for only 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: a few more minutes until about five point fifteen, then 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: they'll be back at it again tomorrow morning. It's a 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: hot and humid afternoon in late August twenty seventeen, and 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: the court reporters wait en mass for the climax to 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: a story they've been following for years. 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 4: Jen, we are on verdict watch in the case against 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 4: fifty seven year old Sandra Melgar. The jury started deliberating 17 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 4: yesterday evening, continued to deliberate this morning, and in fact, 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 4: just moments ago, took a break. This is a case. 19 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: After seven and a half hours split over two days, 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: the jury reached a verdict in the State of Texas 21 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: versus Sandra Jean Melgar. As they file back into the courtroom, 22 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: Liz scrutinizes their faces looking for clues. 23 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 5: When they all were called back after they reach their verdict, 24 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 5: I already knew why because people were crying. There were 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 5: a few people who were crying. To me, I was like, 26 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 5: you're not going to cry if you're going to say 27 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 5: someone's not guilty. 28 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: Sandy's attorney, Max Seacrest, is also studying each member of 29 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: the jury. 30 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 6: Normally, if you're going to prevail, they'll look at you. 31 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 6: They may even grin. Like this jury came in, not 32 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 6: one of them looked us in the eye. 33 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: With everyone back in the courtroom, one of the jurors 34 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: hands a slip of paper to the bailiff, who passes 35 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: it to the judge. They've reached a unanimous verdict. The 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: defend Sandra Jean Melgar, is ordered to stand. She shakily 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: moves to her feet, her body supported by her thin 38 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: wooden cane. The judge clears her throat and reads from 39 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: the slip of paper. We the jury find the defendant, 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Sandra Jean Melgar, guilty of murder as charged in the indictment. 41 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: Sandy lets out a cry of disbelief and falls back 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: into her chair. For Sandy's friends and family, it feels 43 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: like the oxygen has been stripped from the room. 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 6: They were devastated, crying and it was just a horrible day. 45 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: There's Sandy's niece Marissa, who was there when she was found. 46 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 7: My heart just sunk into my stomach. I could not 47 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 7: believe this was happening to her because there was just 48 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 7: no way, no way. We knew, we knew that they 49 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 7: got it wrong. 50 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: There's Tammy Armstrong, who consoled Sandy after her police interview. 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: We're in such shock and I mean dead silence when 52 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: they read that verdict. 53 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: And there's Diana, the cousin who was more like a sister. 54 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 8: Sandy started crying immediately, Liz started crying. We all started crying. 55 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 8: Liz ran to her to give her like one last 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 8: time before they left, before they took her away, and 57 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 8: then as soon as that happened, Liz fell to the ground. 58 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: For Liz, it's all a blur, like something out of 59 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: a horrible nightmare. 60 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 5: It just felt like an out of body experience. And 61 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 5: I just remember, like my husband just like grabbed onto 62 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 5: me really tightly, and it's like holding onto me and 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 5: hugging me, and I kept telling her like it's gonna 64 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 5: be okay, like we're going to figure it out. I 65 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 5: had no idea what I was doing, or like what 66 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 5: I was even saying, or what that meant. 67 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: What do you remember how your mom took it? 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 5: I mean she was just in tears. 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: She was just. 70 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 5: I mean, it was devastating for everybody. 71 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: But it's not over yet. It's down to the jury 72 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: to decide how long Sandy will spend in prison, and 73 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: there's a chance she'll never get out. I'm Maggie Robinson 74 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: Katz And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. This is 75 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: Hands Tied, episode seven, after Shock. 76 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: I think I had heard enough, felt enough that I 77 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 2: truly believe that she did it. 78 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: You remember Aaron Day, he was on the jury. 79 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: The didn't had the ability to do it, even though 80 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: she doesn't remember doing it. I think that was a 81 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: convenient defense. Oh I forgot or I don't remember. 82 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: One of the first things they did when they entered 83 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: the jury room was take a quick count. They'd heard 84 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: the prosecution, they heard the defense. Who did they believe. 85 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: Five of the jurors thought Sandy was guilty, four innocent, 86 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: and three were undecided. 87 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: I was on the guilty side. From the moment we 88 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 2: sat down, we talked about it. We were each given 89 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: time to discuss our feelings and our position. There was 90 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 2: a lot of I don't know, I need to think through. 91 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 2: There was so much information and there were some people going, yes, 92 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: she did it. She was say no, she didn't. 93 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: And then how did you come to reach the unanimous verdict? 94 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: We looked at a lot of the evidence again, we 95 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 2: looked at a lot of the discussion, We read transcripts, 96 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: we went over testimony, how we felt about the testimony. 97 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: Together, the jurors workshopped Sandy's future. 98 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: What evidence could prove that she is innocent of the crime. 99 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 2: There was hardly nothing there. That's why we kept going 100 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: to the guilty. She was there and she had the 101 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: time and ability to do it, and the ones that 102 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 2: were unsure listened to us, they changed their mind and 103 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 2: they deemed her guilty. And so then we had to say, well, 104 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 2: we'll have to tell the world how we feel. 105 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: So what does Aaron think happened that night? 106 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 2: Witnesses painted them as a happy couple to the public, 107 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: but I don't think she was ever really happy because 108 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: all the attention that was paid to her husband. He 109 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: was an elder within the church, and being a Latin American. 110 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 2: He was very charismatic. I think the murder was an accident. 111 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: I don't think she purposely tried to murder him, but 112 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: I think that anger, after years of feeling that way 113 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 2: and not discussing it, came out in this alcohol and 114 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 2: drug filled rage, and it went too far and she 115 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: killed it. 116 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm surprised to hear Aaron say this, because when 117 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: I wrote the court documents, I'm not sure the evidence 118 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: supports that theory. Sure, Sandy did drink that night. She 119 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: said she had a pina colada with her meal and 120 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: two Vodkas in sprite in the jacuzzi, but also told 121 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: detectives that she didn't finish the second one. But drugs, 122 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: she was all like. 123 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: A myriad of like two. I think we're are two 124 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: very mental drugs for her. Lupus are very powerful drugs. 125 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: And then she had the migraine medicine, which in my 126 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: mind would be one that you don't drink alcohol with. 127 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: But that night they had been out drinking. 128 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: Did they go through the various medications that she was 129 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: on in the side effect that they could have. 130 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 8: No. 131 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: I don't think the defense or prosecution brought any of 132 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: that up. They just mentioned that she was on drugs. 133 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: But what about what was said in court? If this 134 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: is a case about stories, it seems the prosecutions made 135 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: more sense to Aarin. Sandy was unhappy, she needed to 136 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: get out of her marriage, and therefore resorted to murder, 137 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,559 Speaker 1: while the defense's argument of a home invasion gone wrong 138 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: just didn't add up. 139 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: They failed to tell me or make me believe she 140 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: didn't do it. So I'm like, oh, you're not offering 141 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: me any Oh, yeah, there was somebody that came in 142 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: the house, Well prove it. Where's your proof? Do you 143 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: have any video that shows somebody going to the house, 144 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: any footprints, any fingerprints, any evidence that somebody was there? 145 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 2: Did the body have anything on it? The prosecution and 146 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 2: the investigators found. 147 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: Nothing to Max Seacrest, Sandy's defense attorney. This is a 148 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: fundamental misunderstanding of the justice system. Innocent until proven guilty. 149 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: The burden of prooflies with the prosecution. It's for them 150 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: to prove someone is guilty, not the defense to prove 151 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: their innocence. 152 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 6: I don't want to ditch a jury. I respect their 153 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 6: verdict here, but I obviously don't agree with it. I 154 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 6: can't fathom how a group of folks conscientiously could believe 155 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 6: beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution had proved its case. 156 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 3: I mean, this is an absolute tragedy. 157 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: Alison Seacrest, Max niece and fellow attorney. 158 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: She lost the love of her life, her best friend, 159 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 3: her caretaker. I mean, Jim took care of her, He 160 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 3: drove her around. There were times where she couldn't even 161 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: drive because of her seizure disorder and the impact that 162 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 3: this had on her daughter and not being able to 163 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: see her grandchildren grow up. I mean, it's just really wrong. 164 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: What went wrong in the trial? Then? 165 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 6: You know that's Uh, that's only a question that Alison 166 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 6: and I ask ourselves every day. I rarely have a 167 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 6: day that I don't think about Sandy. Uh. And it's 168 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 6: it's hard, it's hard to answer. 169 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: Max's voice catches. He takes a moment to compose himself. 170 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: It's clear the whole trial has taken a toll on him, 171 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: and he's still trying to make sense of how it 172 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: all played out. The impact of the choices he made. 173 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: Walk me through the decision to not bring Sandy on 174 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: the stand to give evidence. 175 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 6: Well, that is an area that I really can't discuss 176 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 6: because of attorney client privilege, but I will say this, 177 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 6: it was our belief before we tried the case. It's 178 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 6: our belief now that obviously she had no burden. So 179 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 6: that was a decision made by us, by the lawyers. 180 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 5: I said, maybe you should testify, and she said, I'll 181 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 5: have a seizure on the stand. I can't because she 182 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 5: gets when she's stressed, you know, or too tired, doesn't 183 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 5: get enough sleep, you know, she will have a seizure. 184 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 5: I said, no, just have a seizure, Just let them 185 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 5: see it. Like they don't believe you, Just stop picking 186 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 5: your medicine and have a seizure. She's like, no, I 187 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 5: don't want to prolong this any longer. 188 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 2: I often wonder how I would have felt that she 189 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: did take the stand and said I didn't do it, 190 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 2: look at the jury and say I didn't do it. 191 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 2: Was that assuade me? It might have. I mean, I 192 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: can't tell because she didn't choose to tell me directly. 193 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: She did not murder her husband. 194 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: And though hindsight is always easier in the rear view mirror, 195 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: Sandy and her defense team have to look to the 196 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: future embrace for the jury sentencing. It's the day after 197 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: Sandy was found guilty. We're back in the courtroom and 198 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: it's time for sentencing. Her attorney, Maxycres, asks for leniency. 199 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: He describes Sandy as a good, caring, loving wife with 200 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: no criminal history and innocent of the crime she's been 201 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: convicted of. 202 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 9: And that's exactly why we're here today, because they drank 203 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 9: the kool aid of Sandra Melgar. 204 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: Prosecutor Colleen Barnett, her word, spoken by an actor, requests 205 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: an appropriate sentence for someone she believes as a calculating killer. 206 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 9: She's even manipulated her lawyers. She's manipulated her church group, 207 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 9: She's manipulated most of the people that she goes around 208 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 9: with who believe that she is in. 209 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: When they made us decide how many years in prison 210 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: she had to spend, there was a lot of controversy there, 211 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: being in her age and being her physical illnesses. Some 212 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: people wanted to give her the minimum time, some people 213 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: wanted to give her the maximum time. 214 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: There is a minimum of five years in prison, with 215 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: the maximum sentence being life. But Sandy is fifty seven 216 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: years old, so there's a very real chance she could 217 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: die in prison. 218 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: So we ended up somewhere in the middle. 219 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: Sandy melgar Is sentenced to twenty seven years behind bars. 220 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: How did that feel hearing the sentencing of twenty seven years? 221 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 5: They felt that twenty seven years was showing her mercy 222 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 5: because with good behavior, you can get out in half 223 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 5: the time, So that would be like thirteen and a 224 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 5: half years, and so they felt that she would be 225 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 5: like seventy something and she could still have some time 226 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 5: with her grandchildren before she died, and that that was 227 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 5: their bit of mercy for her. 228 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: To Liz, if Sandy was guilty, mercy would be the 229 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: last thing on her mind if she's guilty. 230 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 5: If she was guilty, why would I want to spend 231 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 5: time with her? Why would I want her in my house? 232 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 5: Why would I want her around me or my kids? 233 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 5: I wouldn't. There's no way in hell. 234 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: Was there any hope you had during the trial process 235 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: that she wouldn't be convicted? 236 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 8: Yeah? 237 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 5: I mean I thought it was really open and shit case. 238 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 5: I thought that they would present the evidence and they 239 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 5: would people would see what it was and they would 240 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 5: let her go. You know, we thought we were all 241 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 5: going to go home after that. 242 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: Liz leaves the courtroom without her mom while Sandy is 243 00:14:58,840 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: taken to her cell. 244 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 5: And then you know, having to go home and explain 245 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 5: to my daughter because she's like running down the stairs 246 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 5: and she's like, where's Nana. I was like, oh my god, 247 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 5: I can't. 248 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: Nearly five years after Jim's death, Sandy begins her sentence. 249 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: She's taken to the William P. Hobby Unit, a women's 250 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: prison between Houston and Dallas. 251 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 5: It was known as Hobby Hell. I've never heard her 252 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 5: more terrified. 253 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: Sandy's cousin Diana ficit's as often as she can. 254 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 8: Hobby was an extremely scary place. Sandy got threatened, she 255 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 8: got verbally abused, Like even my sister and I when 256 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 8: we would go visit. It was a scary place just 257 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 8: to go into. The guards were, I don't know, very 258 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 8: hard and cold. 259 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: She's eventually moved to a women's medical facility. 260 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 8: Carol s Young, I feel better that she's at a 261 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 8: medical unit. We there's still a lot of crazy stories 262 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 8: that Sandy tells us. You know, there's still drama happening, 263 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 8: there's still fights, but I no longer feel that her 264 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 8: life is in danger, Whereas in Hobby I thought we 265 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 8: could get a phone call eighty day say, Sandy's gone 266 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 8: because somebody got in a fight. She was in the 267 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 8: wrong place, wrong time. 268 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: Sandy may be in a better place, but prison is 269 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: still prison. 270 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 5: All I can think about is my mom laying on 271 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 5: this like hard prison bed, and she's alone and suffering 272 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 5: in prison. And I get to I get to travel, 273 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 5: and I get to be with my kids, and I 274 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 5: get to do as I please. It just seems wolly unfair. 275 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: Sandy is still at the medical facility today. I really 276 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: wanted to interview her in person or even just by phone, 277 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: but my request was denied by the authorities. So I 278 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: write to her. I introduced myself and ask her if 279 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: she'd be okay answering some questions over prison email. A 280 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: couple weeks later, I get a response. She tells me 281 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: about the weather, writing, we actually had some snow last week. 282 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: That's unheard of in Texas, especially so close to the Gulf. 283 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: We only got about eight inches, but that's a lot here. Lol. 284 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: Sandy's warm in her messages, almost light as well as 285 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: the occasional lol. There's an old school emoji, you know, 286 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: the one colon in a parenthesis making a smiley face. 287 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: In one email, I tell her I went to go 288 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: visit Liz in London, but don't hear back for a 289 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. So I send another and then another, 290 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: and then I finally hear back from her. She tells 291 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: me she's been called into the supervisor's office to discuss 292 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: our messages. She writes, they question me about the podcast. 293 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: I told them that I had already informed you that 294 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't allowed, and I told them to look at 295 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: my replies to you. They already had, but they still 296 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: wanted to question me. 297 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: Ha. 298 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: She goes on to detail her day to day life 299 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,239 Speaker 1: in prison and how difficult it is. Breakfast is at 300 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: four am, so I don't go because I can't sleep. 301 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: But three or four hours at night, it's very noisy 302 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: and things are going on at all hours. You can 303 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: hear the inmates talking or arguing in the middle of 304 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: the night, or the banging of the bathroom doors, or 305 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: the officer yelling for one of the inmates to get 306 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: up for one reason or another. I'm not in a cell. 307 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: We are in cubicles, so it's all open to noise 308 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: and nosy people looking in to see what you have 309 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: or what you are doing. Zero privacy. In another message, 310 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: she tells me about her memories of Jim, responding to 311 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: a question I had asked weeks before. I have many 312 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: great memories of Jim, from the time we first met 313 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: in high school. His sense of humor, his corny jokes, 314 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: which we call Jim jokes. He was a person always 315 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: willing to help in whatever way he could. He could 316 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: do just about anything, and if he didn't know how, 317 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: he would learn. Except for cook, he couldn't cook at all. 318 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: I miss him terribly and dream of him often. We 319 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: had been married thirty two years, and I know we 320 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: would still be together if this terrible ordeal had not happened. 321 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: It's an awful nightmare that I haven't woken up from. 322 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: All I can do is continue to pray and remain hopeful. 323 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: I reach out again. I have to ask her if 324 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: she killed Jim and what she thinks happened. I know 325 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: it's my job, but after this message, I kind of 326 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: can't help but feel like an asshole. If she didn't 327 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: do it like she claims, this is just putting salt 328 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: on the wound that she's in prison for a murder 329 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: she didn't commit, and if she did, well, I guess 330 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel bad about asking her if she did. 331 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: Sandy eventually writes back no, she writes in capitals, then 332 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: goes on to repeat some of what she already told 333 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: me that she and Jim had a great relationship, adding 334 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: that they had plans to travel, go see the Northern Lights, 335 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: visit Ireland, see Machu Picchu in Peru. In many ways, 336 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: me writing to Sandy isn't your typical interview. In fact, 337 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: it really isn't an interview at all. I have so 338 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: many questions about what happened that night in December and 339 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: how her version differs from what we heard in the trial. 340 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: But there's no real back and forth. But you know, 341 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: in the end, it actually really doesn't matter what I think. 342 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: It's up to the legal system, and right now Sandy's 343 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: defense team are refusing to give up. 344 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 6: We contended that, you know, the verdict was based on 345 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 6: conjecture and speculation, not evidence sufficient to establish her guilt 346 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 6: beyond a reasonable doubt. 347 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: After the shock of losing the trial, Sandy's attorneys Mac 348 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: and Allison ccrest regroup and decide to fight on. They're 349 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: determined to write what they see as a miscarriage of 350 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: justice and get Sandy's verdict overturned. 351 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 6: We're personally wrapped up in it, and we take it personally. 352 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 6: We know Sandy, we believe in Sandy, and we take 353 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 6: it personally because we're in the middle of it. We're 354 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 6: part of the process, and so we've never you know. 355 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: Shirked that they call for a retrial, but the request 356 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: is denied. A panel of three judges uphold Sandy's conviction, 357 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: ruling that there was enough evidence to convict her. But 358 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: Mac fights on and takes the case to the Texas 359 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: Court of Criminal Appeals. 360 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 5: Oh yay, oh yay, oh yay. 361 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 7: The Honorable Court of Criminal Appeals is now in session. 362 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 8: We're ready to hear an argument. 363 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: Almost four years after Sandy's conviction, Mac seacrest is back 364 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: in court. Well sort of. 365 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 10: Good morning to the court. I'm George McCall, say christ junior. 366 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty one. You know, you remember the pandemic 367 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: and because of it, Mac is presenting his arguments to 368 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: a panel of nine senior judges. 369 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 10: Over zoom, I don't believe the evidence that you have 370 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 10: shows that the state proved that Sandy Milgar killed her husband. 371 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 10: The state proved that she was present. 372 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: Each of the nine judges appear in their own box 373 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: on the screen, MAC in another, and then there's a 374 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: digital timer in a box all of its own. MAC 375 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: has twenty minutes for his arguments. A red light will 376 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: warn him when his time is up. 377 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 10: He was viciously assaulted, he was beaten, consistent with being 378 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 10: hit with a fist, consistent with being kicked. It's just 379 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 10: not plausible under the circumstances that she could have caused 380 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 10: that type of injury. 381 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: As the timer ticks down, he tells what's now a 382 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: familiar story. Matt goes through the prosecution's case, arguing it 383 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: was built on conjecture, not fact. 384 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 10: It doesn't even approach that which can safely say comports 385 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 10: with the rudimentary requirements a due process of law. 386 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: The timer light turns red and alarm buzzes, signifying his 387 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: time is up. 388 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 2: Thank you, counseled. The court will stand in recess until 389 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 2: ten o'clock. 390 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: He signs off zoom and waits. 391 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 6: They sat on it, and sat on it, and then 392 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 6: ultimately they dismissed the case. 393 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: That was in June twenty twenty two. So in Layman's terms, 394 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: what does that mean? 395 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 6: That means we lost on appeal and ultimately the court 396 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 6: did not reduce Sandy's case, so her conviction is affirmed. 397 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 6: What it means is as far as her quote unquote 398 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 6: direct appeal is concerned, it's exhausted. 399 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: I asked Liz how her mom felt about the judge's decision. 400 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 5: She really got her hopes up, and I kept telling her, like, 401 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 5: you know, ninety percent of the time, this is going 402 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 5: to get to and I don't want you to like 403 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 5: fall into despair if that happens. And of course that happened, 404 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 5: and she just it really hit her, you know, she 405 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 5: sent her to severe depression. 406 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: This really hits Liz too. She feels like she's lost 407 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: both of her parents, and now the legal process is 408 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: all over. She no longer has the case to distract 409 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: her from her feelings of grief. 410 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 5: Like I had basically obsessed over the case file, Like 411 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 5: when I reached the end, I would just start all 412 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 5: over and see what I'd missed, or I would blow 413 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 5: up all the photos on my computer and look inch 414 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 5: by inch, like all over to see if there were 415 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 5: any clues, missed, any evidence. I don't know if that 416 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 5: was like shock or just knowing that these things had 417 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 5: to be done and I didn't have time to break down. 418 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: Liz finds SLF at rock bottom. 419 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 5: Once everything got handed over and there was nothing left 420 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 5: to do, that's when it got difficult. And that's I 421 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 5: think when I realized I had really bad PTSD. I 422 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 5: don't even feel human anymore. I miss the person that 423 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 5: I used to be. 424 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's okay to talk about, Like, what are 425 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: some of the things, like you remember about how you 426 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: used to be contrasting with how you are now? 427 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 8: I am. I was very social. 428 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 5: I could talk my way in or out of any situation. 429 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,719 Speaker 1: I could still see that now, to be honest, Like, 430 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: I can totally see that now. 431 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 5: But like now I just hate being around big. 432 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 3: Groups of people. 433 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 5: I don't trust anyone. I just feel like I'm not 434 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 5: fun anymore. I don't know. 435 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: It's almost like I've died. Do you ever allow yourself 436 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: to feel hope? 437 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 5: No? 438 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 8: No. 439 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: The ricochet effect of any crime can create fallout, impacting 440 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: the lives of not just those who were directly involved, 441 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: but they're family and friends. It's not only Liz who 442 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: has been impacted, it's all of Sandy and Jim's friends 443 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: and relatives, including her cousin Diana. 444 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 8: Anytime I see a cop car behind me, like I 445 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 8: have a bodily reaction, like I start sweating, I start 446 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 8: I just I have that fear. And even same thing 447 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 8: with Houston, like I used to love Houston because Sandy 448 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 8: and Jim were there. I loved it, And now I 449 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 8: see the downtown skyline and it turns my stomach because 450 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 8: I have the memories of the trial. I was one 451 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 8: of those people that I would hear people say, you 452 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 8: know that people in jail claim they didn't do it right, 453 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 8: Like I'm innocent. I'm innocent, And I've always thought like, yeah, right, 454 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 8: like you're in jail for a reason. I didn't believe 455 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 8: it until this happened to Sandy. 456 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: And Melissa's cousin Marissa, who was there the day Jim 457 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: was found. To this day, Uncle Jim is still a 458 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: central part of her life. 459 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 7: I have his ashes actually on a counter in my restroom, 460 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 7: and so I whenever I need some advice, live advice, 461 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 7: because that's what my uncle was really good at, just 462 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 7: life in general. Whenever I'm feeling down, whenever anything really 463 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 7: happy news, I just go to his ashes and I 464 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 7: start talking to the box. And I know that might 465 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 7: sound weird to some people, but it just makes me 466 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 7: feel like he's with us, and he is. 467 00:28:51,760 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: I know he's with us. What's that expression? The darkest 468 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: hour is just before the dawn. Well, Max Seacrest hasn't 469 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: quite given up. He picks up the phone and makes 470 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: one last call, one last throw of the dice, one 471 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: last attempt to help Sandy. But it's a slim chance. 472 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: The man he's calling might not be able to help them. Dang, 473 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: he might not even pick up the phone. 474 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 11: I did not know him, so it was kind of 475 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 11: a cold call. 476 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: The person mac rings is Mike Ware, a criminal defense lawyer. 477 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 11: He talked about how much this case meant to him 478 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 11: and how there was no doubt in his mind that 479 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 11: Sandy was completely innocent. 480 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: Mike founded an organization in Texas which has got forty 481 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: people exonerated since two thousand and six. 482 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 11: He knew of us in our work and wanted us 483 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 11: to take on the case. 484 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: Mike Ware helps people who are all out of options, 485 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: but he only takes on a fraction of the cases 486 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: that come to him. Will he take on Sandy's. 487 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 11: We have to, through whatever means, be convinced absolutely that 488 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 11: they are in fact, absolutely innocent, And by that I 489 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 11: mean that either the crime they were convicted of occurred 490 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 11: pretty much as the police, the witnesses, the prosecution says 491 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 11: it happened. It's just they are not the ones who 492 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 11: committed it. It was someone else, or in some cases, 493 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 11: no crime at all was committed by anyone. 494 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: That's next time on hands Tide. You've been listening to 495 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: Hands Tide from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes 496 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: will be released weekly, so subscribe or follow on the 497 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts so 498 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: you don't miss out. If you like the show, please 499 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: help us by spreading the word or giving us a 500 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer 501 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: is Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell. 502 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from 503 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our 504 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,959 Speaker 1: production executive is Laura Jordan Raul. The series was developed 505 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw at iHeart. The managing 506 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: Executive producer is Christina Everett, and for BBC Studios, the 507 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: executive producer is Joe Kent. James Cook is the Creative 508 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: Director a Factual for BBC Studios Audio and the Director 509 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.