1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: Family Secrets as a production of I Heart Radio. In 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: between visits, I saw my father all around New York. 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: I saw him sitting in a movie theater, the exact 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: curve of his neck to jaw to cheekbone. I saw 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: him as I ran along the Hudson River in winter, 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: sitting on a bench looking at the dock boats, and 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: on my subway, revived the work, walking away on the 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: platform through the crowd, thin men, olive skinned, fine fingered, 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: slim wristed, double bearded, who at certain angles looked just 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: like him. Each time I had to get closer to 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: check my heart in my throat, even though I knew 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: it could not possibly be him, because he was sick 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: in bed in California. Before this, during years in which 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: we hardly spoke, I had seen his picture everywhere. Seeing 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: the pictures gave me a strange thing. The feeling was 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: familiar to catching a glimpse of myself in a mirror 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: across the room and thinking it was someone else, and 18 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: then realizing it was my own faith Darry was peering 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: up for magazines and newspapers and screens in whatever city 20 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: I was in. That is my father, and no one 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: knows it, but it's true. That's Lisa Brennan Jobs, reading 22 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: from her first memoir, Small Fry. Lisa's story is both 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: about having a secret and being a secret. What's your 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: life like when your father, the father who initially did 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: not believe you were his, The father who only reluctantly 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: claimed you after he was forced to take a fraternity test, 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: The father who kept you at arm's length all your life, 28 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: is one of the most famous, powerful, and wealthiest men 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: in the world. Here's just a bit more from Lisa 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: before we dive into our conversation. I have a secret, 31 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: I said to my new friends at school. I whispered 32 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: it so they would see I was reluctant to mention it. 33 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: The key I felt was to underplay. My father is 34 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs. Who is that? One asked, He's famous? I said, 35 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: he invented the personal computer. He lives in a mansion 36 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: and drives a Porsche convertible. He buys a new one 37 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: every time I gets a scratch. The story had a 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: film of unreality to it, as I said it, even 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: to my own ears. I hadn't hung out with him 40 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: that much, only a few skates and visits. I didn't 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: have the clothes or the bike. Someone with a father 42 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: like this would have. My last name was different from his. 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: He even named a computer after me. I said to them, 44 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: what computer. A girl named Elizabeth asked the Lisa. I said, 45 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: a computer called the Lisa. She said, I never heard 46 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 1: of it. It was ahead of its time. I used 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: my mother's phrase, although I wasn't sure why it was ahead. 48 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: He visited the personal computer later. But you can't tell 49 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: anyone because if someone finds out, I could get kidnapped. 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: I brought it up when I felt I needed to, 51 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: waiting as long as I could, and then letting it 52 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: burst forth. I don't remember feeling at a disadvantage with 53 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: my friends who had others, only that there was at 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: my fingertips another magical identity, an extra thing that started 55 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: to itch and tangle when I felt small, and it 56 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: was like a pressure building inside me. And then I 57 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: had to find a way to say it. She had 58 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: to find a way to say it. Isn't that what 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: this show is all about? So many of us are 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: trying to find a way to say it. Whatever it is, 61 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: this thing that wasn't allowed to be spoken. I'm Danny Shapiro, 62 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 1: and this is family secrets. The secrets that are kept 63 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 64 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. So I missed it a lot. Actually, 65 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: the air in California and northern California knows of disks. 66 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: They're towering and there's silvery, and they have these size 67 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: in half moon knees that dangle down and shiver in 68 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: the wind. And they have these beautiful kind of button 69 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: shaped seeds that plunk on those ceilings and fall on 70 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: the roads, and they are kind of silvery too, and perfumed. 71 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: My mother was saying that they're not native to the 72 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: area and that their roots systems are really shallow, so 73 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: they can fall over. She said this when I was younger, 74 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: and I I held onto this idea, and I remember 75 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: when we would drive to the beach, which was up 76 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: this curvy road all the way over the hills and 77 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: then down to the Pacific Ocean. There was a line 78 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: of eucalyptus trees, and every time we would have to 79 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: go through that long tree lined road, I would hold 80 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: my breath with terror that these trees would fall down 81 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: on us. And then many years later said, oh, no, sweetheart, 82 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: no trees falling very slowly, but anyway, the air smelled 83 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: the people lift and danger. The earliest home I think 84 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: I remember was this place as the sort of the 85 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: batch house of the house in Memmo Park and no 86 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: are remember being in a shower with my mother and 87 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: she was the hot water and the cold water were 88 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: coming on. We were alternating them for some reason, and 89 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: she was yelling like closed poors, open pours, and I 90 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: was yelling it with her, and I think there was 91 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: a curtain, and then we would go outside. At that 92 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: house there was theater. The house was small that there 93 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: was quite the garden because the main house was surrounded 94 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: by land. This house is a kind of house on 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: spilt on a hill that was really falling apart a 96 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: little bit, the one with the trellis roses, and there 97 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: was ivy on one side where I would go and 98 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: play beside the big oak tree on my own. Or 99 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: was the boy who lived there with his mother also 100 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: we were renting a room. And now that house has 101 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: been all fixed up. It looks really nice because that 102 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: doesn't look anymore like it's going to fall down the 103 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: hill or like the wood is old. It looks like 104 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: a shiny, polished version of its old self when we 105 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,239 Speaker 1: lived in a bunch of houses. I think I've removed 106 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: searching times before I was seven, but by the time 107 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: I was seven. What was it like to move thirteen 108 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: times in the first seven years of your life? I 109 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: mean both what was it like then? And like, how 110 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: do you think about that now? It's hard to know 111 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: what it was like then. I remember my mother being 112 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: very sad. I think maybe she was probably depressed and 113 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: probably just completely overwhelmed with our money less circumstances, and 114 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: how she would kind of sit in one of these 115 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: rooms in the dark, and I would feel embarrassed because 116 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: in this one's house that we're moving into, it was 117 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: our own house. We were the ones who had our 118 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: name on the lease, and I remember the des fiction, 119 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: oh my god, we're moving into a place that's just ours. 120 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: And I also remember noticing that we really didn't have 121 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: any furniture. So I had these moments of feeling a 122 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: distance from my own circumstances and of irthing them, maybe 123 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: because I've been to other people's houses. We lived at 124 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: one place over the summer that was full of furniture. 125 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: We stub led it from somewhere too was away, and 126 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: they had a television, and I remember watching Jethany Street 127 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: and they had so much furniture that right now, the 128 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: way I imagine it was the kind of a hoarder's paradise, 129 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: but in fact it might have just been a very well, 130 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: normally furnished house. You know. It wasn't necessarily something I 131 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: was looking at anthropologically, because it was my life and 132 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: I was so young I didn't really know any different. 133 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: And yet there were ploys when I remember thinking, oh, 134 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: that's different than what might be normal. And I think 135 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: that children will take these moments that are mysterious and 136 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: sort of box them up for later. And I think 137 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: that because I think during the process of writing a 138 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: memoir it was it was an unboxing. In other words, 139 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: the stories that I would remember, we're the ones that 140 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: where things happened that does not make sense to me 141 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: at the time, and that is why I had wrapped 142 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: them up and saved them for all that time. One 143 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: of these boxed up moments happens in a car after 144 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: Lisa and her mom have taken a road trip to 145 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: Harbor Hot Springs and everything that can possibly go wrong does. 146 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: Her mother gets lost, the car breaks down. They're hungry, tired, 147 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: and completely without resources, and her mother just loses it, 148 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: completely loses it, and essentially has a nervous collapse right 149 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: there in the car in front of her four year 150 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: old daughter, in what must have been a frightening combination 151 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: of terror and rage. There's this moment where you write, 152 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: at the height of her hopelessness and noise, that felt 153 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: a calm presence near us, even though I knew we 154 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: were alone in the water. We held the car jerking, 155 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: some benevolent presence that cared for us but could not interfere. 156 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: Maybe sitting in the back seat, can you say more 157 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: about that benevolent presence and whether that's something that kind 158 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: of accompanied you at other times. You were very young 159 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: when you had that thought, right, I think it was 160 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: for And I talked to my mother about that later 161 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: after I had written it. I was mentioning this moment 162 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: you talked about in the car driving back from this 163 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: little sort of break we took, driving back to our home. 164 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you know, we don't have money, we 165 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: don't have to support There's a sense of shame in 166 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: society for her role, and she feels as very acute way. 167 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: She is a married woman with an illegitimate child, and 168 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: she's thought that she would ever have thought of me 169 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: in that way. But Reagan is talking about, well, her 170 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: mother is and single mothers, and my father is saying 171 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: that she essentially slept with lots of people, and she 172 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: she hadn't and then it wasn't his kid, and you know, 173 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: it's just shame upon Shane. And she had had her 174 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: own test things in her childhood. And so she she's 175 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: screaming kind of at the universe, but I'm there. And 176 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: she said later when I asked her about it, that 177 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: she she's had other moments like that before that on, 178 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: but that at that moment she realized, oh, and he's 179 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: just going to remember this later. You know, there was 180 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: I was past the veil where memories disappear, and oh god, 181 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: I remember being terrified, and I remember if I didn't 182 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: keep a hold of myself, I might not realize how 183 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: weird certain things were. And I wanted certain things to 184 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: be weird because I didn't want them to be my life. 185 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: And that's another kind of disassociatures other presence in the car, 186 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: I guess the psychological model has named this phenomenon, which 187 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: is in a moment of extreme stress, the t sect 188 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: and becomes too our calmness finds another ground or something 189 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: like that is dissociation as defense. Right. I felt when 190 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: I was writing the book, like, oh my god, that's 191 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: the purpose of this book. In a certain way. I 192 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: get to go back and keep myself company. I get 193 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: to go back as a steady hand as someone is 194 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: to some degree made it out fine to all the 195 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: difficult times of my childhood when I didn't know if 196 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: we would make it out fine. And I can't influence anything, 197 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: but I get it's gonna sit in the backseat and 198 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: be this presence. Describe your mother to me. My mother 199 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: is humanist. I think if she's not creative, if she's 200 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: not expressing herself artistically, even in one day, she feels 201 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: disconnected from herself and becomes depressed. She decided when I 202 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,599 Speaker 1: was born that she was going to become she was 203 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: going to be a mother and an artist, that she 204 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: was going to do them both, and she's pursued that 205 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: fairly intensely. She is very beautiful. I think she's really blunt. 206 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: She's really honest. She will tell the truth without thinking 207 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: of the consequences, because the truth is the only important 208 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: thing to her. Was that also true for you, you 209 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: were a child. There was a kind of like she 210 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: wasn't going to soften it so much for a child. 211 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 1: She was gonna And I don't mean it's in a 212 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,599 Speaker 1: kind of crying in the car way, like that was 213 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: an art extraordinary circumstance. But I mean she would get 214 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: mary mad at me. For example, if I talked about 215 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: good guys and bad guys, which I see now children 216 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: doing all the time. It must have always been interposed childhood. 217 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: But if I would talk about good guys, she'd get furious. 218 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: This was useful to Lisa later, this talk of good 219 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: guys and bad guys. Her mom also talked about not 220 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: looking at things in black and white, but there were 221 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: many shades, many colors, also useful later. She was young. 222 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 1: She was so young. She was younger than everyone else's mother. 223 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: She was more beautiful, she was more fun, I think 224 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: in certain ways. But we would go and get coffee, 225 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: we would take walks and would go to hike. And 226 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: how old was she when she had you? She was 227 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: twenty three. She has a quality where she will sometimes 228 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: bite the hand that sees her. This feels like part 229 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: of this honesty, but I'm not sure if it always is, 230 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: and that quality was frustrating to me when I was 231 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: a kid. I would have rather lied to make things 232 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: comfortable for us, and that was not the way she operated. 233 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: Tell me your first memory of hearing about your father. 234 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: So at some point, I guess we came back from 235 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: Tahoe when I was four, and apparently he picked us 236 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: up in this porsche. I sat on my mother's lap, 237 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,599 Speaker 1: those were the days, right in the frost seats, and 238 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: we drove to his He just bought this mansion and 239 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: wood side, and he bought it for the land and 240 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 1: had these big, old, beautiful, huge oak trees, and he 241 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: said the house was shipped and they had an elevator, 242 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: and I discovered it, or I felt I discovered it 243 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: and had an organ room start of going up and 244 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: down the elevator and I'm playing the organ. I mean, 245 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: organs is a church organ, so there's like rooms full 246 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: of pipes. At some point you gave me an apricot 247 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: from the orchard, and it was just like the best 248 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: thing I've ever had. And then I think we didn't 249 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: really start to get to know each other again. When 250 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: I was seven or eight, and I remember going back 251 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: to that mansion with him alone where I knew there 252 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: was an elevator and there was a church organ and 253 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: I knew that he didn't love that. I was fascinated 254 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: bordering on a set with those things. There was a 255 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: lot of silence. I think in retrospect he was very awkward, 256 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: and I think extraordinary and sort of groups and then 257 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: sometimes maybe much quieter one on one. Also, he was 258 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: getting to know his daughter for the first time, which 259 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: I can only imagine for somebody who maybe he wasn't 260 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: even particularly good with kids, who maybe felt ashamed he 261 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: hadn't been there earlier. And also we don't realize that 262 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: kids that kids can be a little scary when you're 263 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: an adult, when you don't know how to talk with 264 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: them and they don't respond the way adults do to reything. 265 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: Someone told me that the charms that worked on everyone 266 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: else didn't necessarily worked on me. And so then what 267 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: did he have. I've never seen someone dressed so well. 268 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: I remember that, and I wouldn't have been able to 269 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: put it in those words as a kid. And it 270 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: wasn't like he wore anything particularly fancy, but at that 271 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: point he was, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, 272 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: so his sweaters. They weren't particularly fancy or anything, but 273 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: they were like a league different than anything I'd seen. 274 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: Is like he'd be wearing ripped up jeans. But then 275 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: there'd be something about his shoes. You know, with our clothes, 276 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: we wear them a bunch, washed a bunch, and they'd 277 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: get worn, the colors would fade, and maybe they'd be 278 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: a little tattered, and they they'd be a little wrinkly 279 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: from folding. And I think probably with his they were 280 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: in the drawer and maybe worn only a few times, 281 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: and they were crisp. But I remember that some puzzlement 282 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: about the way that he looked in the smells, the 283 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: smells of new clothes, and then finding it comforting because 284 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: it was almost like he was an emissary from another world, 285 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: a world that smells different. Maybe that smells European, right, 286 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: These clothes were probably perfumed, the package spent over. He 287 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: drove fast, not particularly well. The fat his car was rumbly. 288 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: All of the machines around him Nate noises that I 289 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: that were new to me. Again, they were probably your apacist. 290 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: There was a feeling of of magic when he was 291 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: around who they was special. He would come by oh, 292 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: your guy's coming by, you know, um, maybe we would 293 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: go for a skate. And he sort of walked in 294 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: this way where he seemed to fall forward and then 295 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: bounce up and fall forward. And I remember that, and 296 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: his hair was so dark, and even now just describing it, 297 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: just this feeling of love welling up at me right now, 298 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: even just like, oh, this one, this is the one 299 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: that I got, and how wonderful he is because he 300 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: was had a certain sweetness to him, and I I 301 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: want to say charmed, but I don't think that doesn't 302 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: justice because it went all the way to the core. 303 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 304 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: Lisa inhabits a world of contrasts that she feels into 305 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: its rather than comprehends. This is the way it is 306 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: in childhood, even in our teenage years. We don't yet 307 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: have the tools will develop later to be able to 308 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: think through, analyze, understand, so we're left with what we 309 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: sense and feel in our bodies. And what Lisa felt 310 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: was the difference between the way her mother and her 311 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: father moved through the world. Her mother's life was pinched 312 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: and closed, anxious, pressed, defined by limitation, and her father, 313 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: though He didn't live or act like a typical rich person. 314 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: He wore jeans and T shirts, lived in a crumbling mansion. 315 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: He moved through the world with a sense of possibility 316 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: and openness. How old were you when he suggested that 317 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: you come live with him? My moment, I was having 318 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: horrible fights. I think that she kind of had a crisis. 319 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: I mean understandably, I think in the sense that she 320 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: had been raising me alone with for a large part, 321 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: very very limited support, and then I started kind of 322 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: taking off in a certain way. I was in a 323 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: great school, I was doing really well. All I wanted 324 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: to do was study, and she was kind of the 325 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: the support staff she was made and this probably cast 326 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: her back to having always been the maid. And her 327 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: life was spluttering. She was breaking up with her boyfriend 328 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: of many years, and I think just everything was really 329 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: hard for her at that moment, and so we were 330 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: getting into horrible fights. And also I was like a 331 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, a little bit shitty in the 332 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: sense that I didn't want to do the dishes. I 333 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: wanted to do my homework and I have, of course, 334 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: it's fair to help your parents with the dishes. I 335 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: think it was also like she would kind of naked, 336 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: as miserable as it could be, because she was in rage. 337 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: And that's why I didn't want to do the dishes 338 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: with her, like I didn't want to participate in this, 339 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: in this anymore. And she was getting worse, and I 340 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: felt I was getting better. And then also to my father, 341 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: who had turned his back on me when I was 342 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: little and then had increasingly become a part of my life, 343 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: I was now someone he could be proud of. Right, 344 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: I was doing really well in school, I was. I 345 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: know that soundsinical. I think in some ways it was 346 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: like I've gotten all shined up to the point where 347 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: he'd own me. I don't know that's terrible, but he 348 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: probably didn't necessarily want to take me any Just about 349 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: to have a baby, he has a new, very new wife. 350 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: Um he says he's moved to Palaso a few blocks away. 351 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: Later I asked him why, and he said, to be 352 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: close to me. He offered to have me move with him. 353 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: But it wasn't an offer that was necessarily full of joy. 354 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: It was almost a full of necessity. Was it? His 355 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: rules though, that that you not see your mother for 356 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: six months if you moved in with him, or where 357 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: did that come from. Was it protective of you because 358 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: things were so rough with your mother, or was it 359 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: controlling or or something else. He's just someone who doesn't 360 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: know what he's necessarily doing in the emotional sphere. Is 361 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: trying to help me in some ways to try and 362 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: stay from what has become a terrible environment with my mother, 363 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: and doesn't know how to love very easily when he 364 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: doesn't have any control. And I think, if I move 365 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: over to his house two blocks away from my mother, 366 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: and then I'm just still going over to my mother's 367 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: house all this time, and perhaps she's yelling at me, 368 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: who knows what he's thinking. I mean, if I put 369 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: it terribly towards him, if I'm seeing my mother all 370 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: the time, he has no way of making sure I'm okay. 371 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: And so that's that's what he invented, and then the 372 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: rules around that. I think we're six months. I remember 373 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: that kind of vaguely. It was a horrible crime, as 374 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: you could imagine. I remember a certain relief, like a 375 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: few I get to not see my mother, but I'm 376 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: not at fault for it, you know, So, so in 377 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: the beginning it was just relief, like I get to 378 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: move away, and it's my father's fault that I don't 379 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: have to see my mother, you know, because I'm so 380 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: angry with her, I'm so tired and spice and so 381 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: I'm this sort of moratorium on contact is a relief 382 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: for me. I mean, there would have been a million 383 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: ways to do it better, like we we all probably 384 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: should have gone to see a therapist. But I don't 385 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: think my father really believed in seeing a therapist, because 386 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 1: you know, obviously people who don't believe in therapists usually 387 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: there's something lurking under their right. But yeah, that was 388 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: a real thoughts job. I think telling me that they 389 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: can't see their mother for takes months. We needed some 390 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 1: real help, not some superficial kind of band aid regulated 391 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: controlling help. We needed real help. And I think he 392 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: was part of the problem of why we had ended 393 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: up there, why my mother was in such trouble, and 394 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: he took on some of solving that problem. He was 395 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: paying for my school, he was paying for my therapist, 396 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: going to a great school. I had a great therapist, 397 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: But he didn't really take it off and I both 398 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: understand it and I was sad about it. Yeah, yeah, 399 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. There's a part of 400 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: what you write about once you're there, you know, once 401 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: you're living in that home with he and his new wife, 402 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: and then your baby brother is born, and you describe 403 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: really powerfully sort of the anxiety that sets in. And 404 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: one of those ways is your hands, and that you 405 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: keep on like breaking glasses like you literally can't get 406 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: a grip. I think it's like some mix of adolescence 407 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: and destabilization. I just couldn't. I seem to want to 408 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: be pleasing. I was. I was such a sleezer and 409 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: will just leaser. Wanted to sit in and wanted to 410 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: be loved, wanted to be necessary, needed, enjoyed. And yet 411 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: I keep on breaking glasses all over the kitchen floor, 412 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: like every day, every day at dinner, and I sit 413 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: down at dinner, can get pay LESA not a glasses. 414 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: I'm not a glasses. Time don't And I'm so careful 415 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: and I'm so careful and I make it through me 416 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: and I almost said through the meal and then booth 417 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: something my elbows chest out when I'm reaching for my 418 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: last bite, whoever it is, and they're another book and 419 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: glass shutters on the floor, Oh Lasa, and I must 420 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: have felt it was such a difficulty, such a trial 421 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: and an annoyance to have this needy teenager in their 422 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: midst who's constantly breaking glasses on the on the floor 423 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: where their child is stepping. It's like every night just 424 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: promising myself I wasn't going to do the worst thing, 425 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: and then just despite all of my efforts, And this 426 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: is after I had been so beloved in my schools, 427 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: and and I've just switched WOLS and I don't know anybody, 428 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: but I so beloved in my school that I've always 429 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: had friends, and suddenly I can't make friends, and I 430 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: can't I can't seem to be beloved and needed, and 431 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: I keep on pushing myself away from the very thing 432 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: I think I want, which is somehow to just be included, 433 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: to be necessary, to be family. So it isn't a 434 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: particularly good time in the Job's family. There's a new baby, 435 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: an unhappy, awkward, accident prone teenager, the marriage is new 436 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: and tense, and Lisa's father's new company isn't going well. 437 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: Lisa's new stepmother is constitutionally not a warm person, even 438 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: under the best of circumstances, which these are not. Lisa's 439 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: feeling the tension in the home and absorbing it in 440 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: a way, becoming the physical embodiment of it. She's sort 441 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: of the black sheep the lightning rod. There's something going 442 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: on with everybody, but it keeps getting expressed through her. 443 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: So they go see a therapist, Lisa, her stepmother and 444 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: her father, and in response to Lisa's loneliness and pain, 445 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: her stepmother says, we're just cold people with honest like girlfriends. 446 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: You're barking up the wrong tree. We cannot give you 447 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: this thing you watched. He was gonna have to find 448 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: it other ways. Not that she said it that way. 449 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: Even maybe that's okay. We are all not omni capacity people, 450 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: and maybe the worst thing in life is to lie 451 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: about it. Maybe we have to be straightforward about our limitations. 452 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: So at the same time as I find it a 453 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: shocking admission and a shocking sense to say to someone 454 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: in high school or something, I also find it refreshing 455 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: and interesting and honest. And my father, actually, even or 456 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: wasn't a cold person, kind of added up to that 457 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: in a certain way because you couldn't depend on the warmth. 458 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: It was so intermittent and unpredictable. He was passionate, even warm, 459 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: and he was cold when he was enraged, you know, 460 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: the kind of cold rage like like he when he 461 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: was more really enraged in her. He'd completely ignored me, 462 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: but he wasn't cold. Something I found interesting and heartbreaking 463 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: in Lisa's story, and so illuminating of her internal condition, 464 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: is that she pilfered things, small, inconsequential things from her 465 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: father's home years later, when he was dying and she'd 466 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: come to visit. She'd take tiny things of no material value, 467 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: as if these things were going to bring her father 468 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: close and complete her life. She'd take them on the 469 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: plane home, a chipped bowl, an old pillow case, a 470 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: tube of lip gloss, as if these things would fill 471 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: up all the holes and cracks of whatever was missing. 472 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: She had done a version of this while in high 473 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: school as well. This time, after she discovers an envelope 474 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: full of hundred dollar bills, she peels one off, then 475 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: later another and another. She buys her sat the coat, 476 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: she buys gifts for her family. It isn't about the money, 477 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: It's about the feelings she can't touch or express. The 478 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: hubbit all are bills. I think that was a way 479 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: to access my own remorse somehow because that was the 480 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: result of it. Is I walked around feeling it was 481 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: almost like after I broke a glass. It was I 482 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: walked around feeling ashamed and full of remorse. And I 483 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: wonder if I hadn't felt somehow stolen from or ripped 484 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: off by my father in some deep way and twisted 485 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: it against myself, and if I wasn't trying to access 486 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: those feelings of being so bad that I was worth leaving, 487 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: of being so such a awful human being that I 488 00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: would have merited being abandoned. Because my feeling, I mean, 489 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's like this is a person who's been 490 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: into its therapy, but I'm just thinking, what is the 491 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: results of stealing those hundreds? The result was I walked 492 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 1: around always feeling every time I thought it would at 493 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: least I would think, he's got the it's over. I'm 494 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: gonna be out, he's gonna be He's going to know 495 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: how bad I am. I'm going to be left. And 496 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: so I wonder if in a certain way it found 497 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: me to him, it bound me to our story, which 498 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: did not yet feel resolved that he had left me. 499 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: And why I had no answer was it because I 500 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: was an ugly baby? Was it because I wasn't lovable? 501 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: Was it because there was something horribly wrong with my mother? 502 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: Who I am related to? All of these reasons I 503 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: could come up with because I didn't know the reason 504 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: and it hadn't been resolved, and I'm living with him, 505 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: but it's still not resolved, So I think that's what 506 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: it was about. But I think it was about keeping 507 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: myself feeling bad me because I still at my core, 508 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: had not reached any resolution about our history together through 509 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: these years. Lisa excels academically. This a great college is 510 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: going to be her ticket out and maybe also the shiny, 511 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: sparkling achievement that will solve all these unsolvable problems. She 512 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: has a dream of going to Harvard, a school which 513 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: is not out of reach for her, no matter who 514 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: her father is, And during her interview there some survival 515 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: instinct kicks in and she lets the interviewer know that 516 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: her father is the head of a little company called Apple. 517 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: The tenor of the interview changes. The interviewer excuses herself 518 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: for a moment, probably to go down the hall to 519 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: the development office, and when she returns, the level of 520 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: interest has risen just a bit. I really thought I 521 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: was going to go to my grave with that story, 522 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: because if you read that, you'll know I'm probably not 523 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'm not smart enough. I I you'll 524 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: know how much I was willing to kind of elbow 525 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: my way into something to get something. You know, you'll know, 526 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: opportunistic and selfish and sniveling whatever, you'll know all that 527 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: to me, and I got like, oh god, I don't 528 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: want people to read that. So it's funny, right I 529 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: wrote it, and you know, it wasn't so bad. People said, oh, 530 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: good scene, and I thought, oh, when I got the 531 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: stories in there that needed to be in there, somehow 532 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: the shame floated off of the stories for me so 533 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: that I didn't really worry about how I looked anymore 534 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: because I felt so much better. I love that. Thank 535 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: you for that, because that I, I mean, that's sort 536 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: of something that I talked about all the time and 537 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: think about it on the podcast, is the way that 538 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: actually voicing shame, whether you're writing a memoir about it 539 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: or speaking about it, it actually has this extraordinary effect 540 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: of ultimately having that shame float away. Right. It wasn't 541 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: until I started to open up the shameful thing that 542 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: I appeared. I became his body, So Shane was what 543 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: his body? So let me ask you one last question. 544 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: When your father is dying, he says to you again 545 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: and again and again, he says to you, I owe 546 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: you one, I owe you one. I'm just wondering what 547 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: you think he meant by that, and how you sort 548 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: of took that with you, that sense that he was 549 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: in some way at the end of all this he 550 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: was apologizing to you. It was like what I had 551 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: wanted the whole time. I think it meant like, at 552 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: least the way that I interpreted that was like you 553 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: and I see the same truth. What is missing for you? 554 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: I see, I know I did it. It is not nothing. 555 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: I had felt this feeling of being kind of ripped off, 556 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: meaning I didn't get to know my father when I 557 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: was younger, and he wasn't there for me. He wasn't 558 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: protecting me as well as he it. So I think 559 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: it was an acknowledgement of a common truth which was 560 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: been part of the problem. Gosh, it's amazing how powerful 561 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: it is to just say that your perspective of something 562 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: is similar to another person. I didn't need him to 563 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: make up for it. I didn't need him to apologize forever, 564 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: but just the idea of like I owe you and 565 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: I know it was so wonderful. It was such a bomb. 566 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: It felt like a bomb on a burn, like, oh, 567 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: if we see things the same way, then I'm not 568 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: crazy for all of my feelings. And I have felt 569 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: like some part of him would have been very proud 570 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: of me, but some part of him would have been 571 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: very pissed in me writing this book, and and somehow 572 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: took me some part of the narrative for me. I 573 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: wrote the book about myself, but he is pulled up 574 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: in that net. And so I have told myself, you 575 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: owe me one. This is the one can owe me things. 576 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: I get to write a book about myself and you 577 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: can consider some are all of your debt as alta. 578 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: I want to thank my guest Lisa Brennan Jobs for 579 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: sharing her story on our show. For more on Lisa's 580 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: memoir Small Fry, visit Lisa Brennan Jobs dot net. Family 581 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: Secrets is an I Heeart media production. Dylan Fagan is 582 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: the supervising producer. Julie Douglas and beth Ann Macaluso are 583 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: the executive producers. If you have a family secret you'd 584 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: like to share, get in touch with us at listener 585 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com. You can also 586 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at Danny Ryder, Facebook at Family 587 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: Secrets Pod, and Twitter at Family Secrets Pod. For more 588 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: about my book Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot com. For 589 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: more podcasts. For my heart Radio, visit the I Heart 590 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 591 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: favorite shows.