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Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, not too too long ago or I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's twenty eighteen, so lo these many years ago?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 1: Noel, You and I asked our pal Katie Golden to

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Speaker 1: tell us about something called the Dark Tetrad in the

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Speaker 1: animal world. Do you remember this one?

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Speaker 3: I do?

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Speaker 2: And if I'm not mistaken, this is an episode of

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Speaker 2: that podcast where we were a guest that we also

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Speaker 2: posted in our feed. So something a little different for

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Speaker 2: you today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we asked our We asked our good friend Katie,

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Speaker 1: who's the most prolific serial meowderer Max. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you want to put a rim shot on that one,

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Speaker 1: but I thought it was good.

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Speaker 2: Ma'am was jump right in.

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to a

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians.

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Speaker 2: See what you did? Yeah, this is what they call

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Speaker 2: the old Ridiculous History bait and switch.

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Speaker 1: It's true, yes, and your no always man. We've got

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Speaker 1: our super producer, Casey Pegro, and we want to introduce

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Speaker 1: you to a show that we did that we had

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Speaker 1: so much fun doing.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: It's also not our show.

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Speaker 2: It's not our show, but here's the thing, folks. It's

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Speaker 2: a little thing called the holiday season, and we really

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Speaker 2: needed a little something to pat out our feed to

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Speaker 2: give you guys something juicy to listen to over the holidays.

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Speaker 2: But make it we didn't have to actually record a

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Speaker 2: whole episode of our show, Ridiculous History. So we were

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Speaker 2: asked to be guests on an episode of a wonderful

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Speaker 2: show called Creature Feature, which is hosted by the wonderfully

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Speaker 2: smart and funny Katie Golden.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and we had such a great time on this show.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to spoil too much of it for you,

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Speaker 1: but we had such a great I'm on this show

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Speaker 1: that at the end of it, we harascible scoundrels that

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Speaker 1: we are, said, hey, Katie is equal if we publish

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Speaker 1: this episode on our feed as well, so that more

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Speaker 1: of our listeners can find out about Creature Feature and

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Speaker 1: all the neat, strange stuff you dive into. So what

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Speaker 1: is Creature Feature? Well, it's this. It's this brand new

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Speaker 1: podcast from How Stuff Works that takes a quote critters

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Speaker 1: I view to explore how animal behavior parallels human behavior.

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Speaker 1: And we entered into a dark, yet paradoxically illuminating exploration

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Speaker 1: of something called the Dark tetrad.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Ben, which includes psychopathy, narcissistic personality, macha.

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Speaker 1: That's the original dark triad, but there's a fourth that

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Speaker 1: is added occasionally, which is good old everyday sadism.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And that was actually my favorite entry in

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Speaker 2: the episode where we talk about a particularly nasty pair

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Speaker 2: of cidic wasp that does horrible, horrible things to tarantulus.

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Speaker 1: So check out our appearance on Creature Feature. Thanks again,

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Speaker 1: Katie if you're hearing this for having us over on

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Speaker 1: your show, and if you enjoy this exploration of human behavior,

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Speaker 1: please check out the rest of the fine episodes of

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Speaker 1: Creature Feature that are available today wherever you find your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows.

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Speaker 2: Listen up for a guest spot from Katie herself on

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Speaker 2: this show.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's true.

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Speaker 2: Can we roll the tape without further ado?

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Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, welcome to Creature Feature, the show where we

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Speaker 3: explore the brains of animals and people. I I got

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Speaker 3: brains on my shirt. Today we'll be talking about evil killers, kidnappers, murderers,

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Speaker 3: and hidden lurkers walking or crawling amongst us. Then we'll

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Speaker 3: answer the age old question, who's the most prolific serial meter,

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Speaker 3: does evil exist? There's not really an entry for evil

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Speaker 3: in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual used by psychologists.

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Speaker 3: General attempts to categorize evil has resulted in the creation

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Speaker 3: of the dark tetrad, a term used for four personality

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Speaker 3: traits associated with bad behavior. Narcissism, sadism, psychopathy, and machiavelianism.

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Speaker 4: These are traits that.

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Speaker 3: Are often attributes of people with maladaptive, dangerous personalities. So

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Speaker 3: what does it mean to be in the dark tetrad?

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Speaker 3: We all know generally the concept of narcissism, sadism, psychopathy,

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Speaker 3: and machiavilianism, but what does that actually look like in

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Speaker 3: humans and even animals. Let's take a look at narcissism.

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Speaker 3: For example, the DSM's definition for clinical levels of narcissism

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Speaker 3: is someone who has quote a grandiose sense of self

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Speaker 3: importance and shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you've almost certainly encountered at least a subclinical narcissist, and

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Speaker 3: no doubt you could name a few celebrities and politicians

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Speaker 3: who fit the bill. But could you find narcissism and animals?

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Speaker 3: Many animals seem like narcissists. But even if you point

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Speaker 3: the finger at a totally self obsessed animal, say a housecat,

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Speaker 3: you could also argue they lack the sense of self

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Speaker 3: to be narcissists. Certainly, all Mittens seems to care about

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Speaker 3: is herself, but she may not fully comprehend that she

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Speaker 3: is a herself, So can she really be a narcissist?

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Speaker 3: This is the problem with trying to assign human traits

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Speaker 3: to animals. We can't get inside the animal's head and

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Speaker 3: know what it's thinking. An act that seems sadistic or

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Speaker 3: manipulative may be simply an instinct that allows the animal

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Speaker 3: to pass on its genes. It's impossible to know what

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Speaker 3: they're really feeling. But hey, this podcast is all about

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Speaker 3: the impossible. So we're gonna look at the animals that

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Speaker 3: best symbolize each of the remaining.

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Speaker 4: Characteristics of the Dark tetras.

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Speaker 3: Sadism, psychopathy, and machiavellianism. We'll compare these masters of evil

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Speaker 3: with their human counterparts, exploring what it means to be

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Speaker 3: a member of the Dark tetrad and whether we can

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Speaker 3: use modern scientific imaging to actually quantify.

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Speaker 4: What it means to be a psychopath.

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Speaker 3: Joining me today on our journey into the Dark is

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Speaker 3: Ben Bollen and Noel Brown, hosts of the podcast Ridiculous History.

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Speaker 4: Welcome you guys.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having us. Katie, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much. I'm already kind of terrified, but I'm excited.

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Speaker 1: It's a weird feeling. I, for one, am and thrilled,

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Speaker 1: darkly thrilled.

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Speaker 3: One of you. You were mentioning you have a cat.

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Speaker 3: Would you describe your cat as a narcissist?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, I mean he I don't know, it's weird.

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Speaker 2: He sort of like flits between narcissism and outright psychopathy.

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Speaker 2: Like I was saying, he kind of leaves me little

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Speaker 2: treats on the front porch where it'll be like almost

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Speaker 2: like splayed out like some kind of satanic rich what

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Speaker 2: it'll be like the head of a squirrel and the

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Speaker 2: body of a rat, and then you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: surrounded by like viscera and like the shape of pentagram.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's really pretty scary. But then he snuggles up,

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Speaker 2: you know, like a good little guy. So I don't

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Speaker 2: know what to make of him. I do not know

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Speaker 2: what to make of him. I'm hoping I can learn

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Speaker 2: from this podcast today and kind of get inside his

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Speaker 2: head a little bit more and understand what makes him tick.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean even dogs, to me are pretty

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Speaker 3: narcissistic because they, like my own dog, you associate them

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Speaker 3: with being selfless and loving towards humans. But she's a

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Speaker 3: black hole of neediness and desiring affection. So no matter

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Speaker 3: how much I pet her, like I feel like if

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Speaker 3: I was dying on the floor, her number one priority

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Speaker 3: would be to get another belly rub before I pass out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then, as we all know too, if we

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Speaker 2: died alone in our apartments with just our cats or

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Speaker 2: our dogs, they would probably instantly start eating us.

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Speaker 1: But that's any animal would eventually begin eating you if

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Speaker 1: it were I know.

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Speaker 2: So is the love real, Ben, that's my question of

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Speaker 2: love is real?

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Speaker 1: But now we're talking about the nature of the body

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Speaker 1: versus the mind or the soul, which I don't think

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Speaker 1: is quite where we're going with.

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Speaker 2: Today's Well you did say what is evil? Is evil real?

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Speaker 2: So I'm intrigued. Please, let's let's dive right in.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of curiosity around whether animals can be sadistic.

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Speaker 3: A catter or a dolphin who plays with their half

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Speaker 3: dead praise seems sadistic, but there's actually practicality behind their cruelty.

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Speaker 3: So take this example, Dolphins beat up octopi before eating them,

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Speaker 3: even after they're dead. This may seem overkill, as if

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Speaker 3: the dolphins simply can't stop their murderous frenzy because they're

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Speaker 3: having too much fun, but there's actually a really good

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Speaker 3: reason to.

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Speaker 4: Play rugby with a dead octopus.

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Speaker 3: Octopi don't have centralized nervous systems, so after they're dead,

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Speaker 3: their tentacles can still move around. If an overeager dolphin

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Speaker 3: gobbles up an octopus who's dead but still wriggling, those

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Speaker 3: tentacles can crawl up its esophagus and choke the dolphin.

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Speaker 4: Today.

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Speaker 3: Yes, this is something that's actually been documented before. So

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Speaker 3: the dolphins beat the octopi to a pult before chowing down,

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Speaker 3: preventing the octopi from getting its surfinge from beyond its

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Speaker 3: watery grave. So asking whether animals are sadistic is a

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Speaker 3: tricky question. I'd wager I guess that yes, more intelligent

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Speaker 3: animals like dolphins or primates may have fun wreaking doom

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Speaker 3: and destruction, even if there's a good evolutionary reason for it,

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Speaker 3: but instead I want to look at how evolution itself

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Speaker 3: can create a sadistic monster, void of any emotion at all.

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Speaker 4: To do that, we'll have to take a look.

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Speaker 3: At tarantulas, And in this case, the tarantulas are the

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Speaker 3: innocent victims of a much more terrifying creature. So you, guys,

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Speaker 3: imagine being captured by a criminal sadist, being paralyzed by him,

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Speaker 3: stuck inside like a kill shed, totally at his mercy,

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Speaker 3: completely paralyzed.

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Speaker 1: Katie, I think about that all the time.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you know those bad dreams where you're like

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Speaker 3: trying to run away from a bad guy and you

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Speaker 3: can't move your stupid body.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: It's like this really common recurring dream for me. I'm

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Speaker 3: like trying to run but it just feels like you're

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Speaker 3: stuck in mud, and then you can't move at all

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Speaker 3: and you try to scream but you can't scream.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's like that part of Nightmare on Elm Street

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Speaker 2: where the where she's running up the stairs and she

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Speaker 2: starts sinking the stairs, turning into marshmallows and she just

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Speaker 2: like sinks into.

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Speaker 3: The Oh I hate that, or like or like the

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Speaker 3: bed sinks under you.

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Speaker 1: The fear of moving slowly in dreams, of trying to

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Speaker 1: run but being unable to is I think slightly more

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Speaker 1: common than the other spooky one, which is the fear

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Speaker 1: of your teeth falling out in your dreams.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, that's a common one to the

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Speaker 3: body horror, either teeth, skin, or hair just falling out.

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Speaker 3: I get those ones too. I hate it, like big

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Speaker 3: chunks of skin falling off. It's the worst.

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Speaker 1: I have one question when we talk about this, this

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Speaker 1: attack of paralysis, right, do the animal victims of this

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Speaker 1: sort of attack do they experience fear as we would

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Speaker 1: understand it?

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm not sure. I mean, so we're talking

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Speaker 3: about tarantula's being the victims. So they're terrorized by this

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Speaker 3: thing called tarantula hawk. It's a sort of wasp, and

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Speaker 3: I imagine if the tarantula is capable of feeling anything

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Speaker 3: at all, this is going to be the scariest thing

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Speaker 3: that ever happens to it. I feel like tarantulas are

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Speaker 3: probably just a little more advanced than like a rumba

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Speaker 3: in terms of their ability to like sense things. But

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Speaker 3: I feel like there's got to be some kind of

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Speaker 3: very primitive wiring that is able to at least, you know,

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Speaker 3: gets like some dim awareness of being afraid of something

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Speaker 3: so that they can survive. Probably no other real cognition

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Speaker 3: beyond that, but other than like uh oh uh oh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, probably just like an impending death kind of moment,

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Speaker 2: you know, where it's like ah, fuck, it's over.

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Speaker 4: Like oh oh no oh no.

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Speaker 1: But the tarantula hawk is it Is it actually a hawk?

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Speaker 3: No, no, it's a it's a type of wasp. And

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Speaker 3: if you look into evolutionary biology, you'll find that ninety

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Speaker 3: nine percent of asshole behavior is by wasps. Uh. So,

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Speaker 3: what these tarantula hawks do is they wait outside of

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Speaker 3: tarantula's burrow and they pluck at the tarantula's webbing to

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Speaker 3: lure the spider out, because the transulas create this this

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Speaker 3: little sort of dormat of webbing so that when an

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Speaker 3: insect crawls across it, they know to pop out and

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Speaker 3: capture the prey. But instead of a juicy little worm,

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Speaker 3: it's the transola hawk waiting for them, and it stings

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Speaker 3: the tarantula with a paralyzing venom, and so the transula

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Speaker 3: is frozen but still completely alive, and the wasp drags

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Speaker 3: the transula back to its burrow, where it places the

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Speaker 3: transola snugly inside and then lays a single egg on

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Speaker 3: top of it. And I feel like, if you're the tarantula,

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Speaker 3: with whatever tarantula consciousness that you have, if you can't

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Speaker 3: move and you see someone lay an egg on top

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Speaker 3: of you, this is the point where you're going like, well,

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Speaker 3: this is not.

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Speaker 4: Going to be cool.

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Speaker 3: Wow, indeed, it's not cool for the transula. So the

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Speaker 3: hawk the wasp buries the transula alive and tamps down

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Speaker 3: the earth. So it's stuck in there, still alive, buried alive,

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Speaker 3: with this little baby hatching on top of it. So

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Speaker 3: the wasp larva will feed on the live flesh of

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Speaker 3: the tarantula for up to a month.

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Speaker 2: That's like the buffalo bill of the animal kingdom right there.

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Speaker 2: And this is this is terrifying. Why is it? Why

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Speaker 2: is this so adapted to do this bizarre thing like that?

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Speaker 2: It seems like such a stretch, Like I mean, how

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Speaker 2: did this creature come up with this idea? I mean

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Speaker 2: that's a silly way of asking it.

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Speaker 3: Well, think about it this way, like when you you

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Speaker 3: know animals, especially like wasps, they don't have refrigerators, so

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Speaker 3: they can't keep food fresh for their young as it

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Speaker 3: hatches and develops. So by burying their larva, they're keeping

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Speaker 3: it safe from predators. But you know, if you bury

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Speaker 3: it with some dead prey, it can feed off of

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Speaker 3: it for a while, but eventually that's gonna go bad

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Speaker 3: and it can't eat it anymore. But by feeding on

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Speaker 3: something that's alive, it will stay fresh. So actually, some

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Speaker 3: species of the tarantula hawks will feed on non vital

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Speaker 3: organs first, so that the transula remains alive longer and

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Speaker 3: that gives it more opportunities to feed.

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Speaker 1: Makes sense, makes it? I have a quick question here, Katie.

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Speaker 1: So you know how serial killers are often known for

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Speaker 1: their specific mo o, either in the way that they

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Speaker 1: commit murder or in the types of victims they choose.

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Speaker 1: Are different species of tarantula hawk do they operate in

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Speaker 1: a similar way? Do they only prey on specific types

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Speaker 1: of tarantulas or is it any hairy or achnet out

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Speaker 1: there as fair game?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? No, they are often very specific in terms of

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Speaker 3: the way that they kill and which species of tarantula

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Speaker 3: that they go after, because it's such a specified strategy.

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Speaker 3: Because you need a tarantula that is a burrowing type

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Speaker 3: of tarantula, and so that's not going to be every spider.

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Speaker 3: It's there very specific strategy isn't going to work. So

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Speaker 3: it's picked these cute little I mean to me, they're cute,

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Speaker 3: the translas that like hide in their little holes and

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Speaker 3: then as soon as a little prey comes by, they're like, ooh, gotcha.

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Speaker 3: But this time they're the ones who are got so. Also,

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Speaker 3: it actually gets more specific because female tarantulas are the

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Speaker 3: ones that are the killers. Males just hang around flowers

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Speaker 3: and try to get laid. So the mother actually will

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Speaker 3: select the gender of the larva based on how big

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Speaker 3: their victim is. If they have a big tarantula that

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Speaker 3: they've buried alive, then the mother will fertilize the egg,

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Speaker 3: which creates a female, because the females are the big,

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Speaker 3: tough serial killers and the males are these little, smaller

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Speaker 3: flower drinking dudes. And so if the transula is small,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's like the male doesn't require as much

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Speaker 3: nutrition to develop, so the wasp believe the a unfertilized

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Speaker 3: and then that creates a male baby. And adults are

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Speaker 3: actually non carnivorous, so it's just the babies that eat

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Speaker 3: the meat. The adults just like to drink flower.

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Speaker 1: Nectar and then abduct and murdered tarantulism.

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Speaker 4: Well yeah, that too.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of like have you guys seen Oh, what

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Speaker 3: is it?

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Speaker 4: What's that movie? It's not called is it Split? The

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Speaker 4: one with James McAvoy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he has multiple personalities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and the one like he has like the

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Speaker 3: mother personality where he's like, I've made you a sandwich

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Speaker 3: and like he's stroking her hair and stuff. It makes

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Speaker 3: me think of that, these like wasp that like, oh

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Speaker 3: I like to drink flower nectar anyways, enjoy being paralyzed

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Speaker 3: while my baby eats you.

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Speaker 2: Yikes? So how long does it take to kill the tarantula?

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Speaker 2: Like how long does this this horrible torture porn go on?

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Speaker 3: It can be up to a month, which is crazy

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Speaker 3: to me because like that's such a long time to

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Speaker 3: be slowly eaten. It's like being in a sarlac pit.

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Speaker 2: It's just do they even do them the kindness of

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Speaker 2: reinjecting them with the paralyzing venom or does that eventually

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Speaker 2: just wear off once they're buried and they don't even

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Speaker 2: care anymore we're dismembered.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it'll eventually wear off, but I think

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Speaker 3: they'll most likely die before it does. And also the

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Speaker 3: they're packed in so tight inside the dirt they can't

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Speaker 3: move anyways. It's every nightmare combined into one, like being paralyzed,

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Speaker 3: being eaten alive, being buried alive.

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Speaker 2: And having a baby eating you. Yeah, maybe part is

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Speaker 2: extra creepy. That's to me, that's the kicker. I don't

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Speaker 2: know why. Something about the baby eating you from the

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Speaker 2: top down is just really really awful.

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Speaker 1: Because even human murderers don't do that. That's one of

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Speaker 1: the big difference.

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Speaker 2: That's a very special kind of evil who.

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Speaker 3: There aren't typically baby murderers, although there are children who

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Speaker 3: can be murderers, but I don't think infants have yet

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Speaker 3: done a murder.

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Speaker 1: It's a different show.

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Speaker 3: So good news you guys. Tarantula hawks are found all

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Speaker 3: over the world, including Australia, which duh, because Australia is

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Speaker 3: just home to every monster. They're also in Africa, Southeast Asia, India,

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Speaker 3: and also America. They're even in San Diego, California, which

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Speaker 3: is my hometown.

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Speaker 1: So yay, that's astonishing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, will you be able to find any video of

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Speaker 2: this process going down. I would love slash.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I could totally send you guys something like that.

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Speaker 3: It's I have seen it. It's pretty gnarmally because you

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Speaker 3: see this wasp attach itself to the tarantula and then

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Speaker 3: there's a scuffle and then the transla slowly starts to

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Speaker 3: go very still, and that's when the dread sets in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was as you were walking us

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Speaker 1: through this process. I was watching a video of a

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Speaker 1: child who is one watching this intense deathmatch and kidnapping, abduction,

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Speaker 1: burial of a tarantula, and even the kid seems to

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Speaker 1: think this is this is a little brutal. You can

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Speaker 1: see the tarantula attempt to escape as the paralytic agent

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Speaker 1: is kicking in. But I was surprised by the size

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Speaker 1: because at least in what we're seeing here, the tarantula

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Speaker 1: hawk looks significantly smaller than the creature it's attacking.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why it's having the ability to paralyze

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Speaker 3: the tarantula is so important because it's using its smarts.

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Speaker 3: Not really because wasps are done, but in evolutionary terms,

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Speaker 3: like this intelligent strategy over the brawn of the tarantula.

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Speaker 3: That sting is extremely powerful. So there's this entomologist, doctor

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Speaker 3: Justin Schmidt from the Southwestern Biological Institute, and he created

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Speaker 3: a sting pain index and uh. He says, the Transla

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Speaker 3: hawk sting is quote unsurpassed and intensity by any other

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Speaker 3: stinging insect and that a sting feels like a lightning

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Speaker 3: bolt struck the spot. The pain is beyond imagination. And

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Speaker 3: you want to know why he knows this.

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Speaker 1: Did he sting himself?

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Speaker 3: Yep?

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Speaker 5: Oh wow, this crazy bastard like just created this sting

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Speaker 5: pain index by finding a bunch of insects that sting

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Speaker 5: and then having them sting himself and then rating it like,

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Speaker 5: oh yeah, that's yep, that's a ten.

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Speaker 1: How is that guy? Is he still alive? I don't

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Speaker 1: want to I don't want to sound insensitive.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I don't think he's killed himself with insects stings,

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Speaker 3: just subjected himself to quote unimaginable pain.

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Speaker 1: Now from if if A, what I remember is correct,

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Speaker 1: a wasp or notorious for you're just attacking human beings

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Speaker 1: who happen to be around their general vicinity. Are tarantula

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Speaker 1: hawks that way too? Or do they have to be

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Speaker 1: you know, provoked or prodded.

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Speaker 3: They have to be provoked. So the silver lining is

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Speaker 3: they're actually pretty non aggressive towards anything except for obviously

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Speaker 3: tarantula's But I mean, if you get one caught like

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Speaker 3: in your sweater, it'll probably sting you out of a

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Speaker 3: fear response. But yeah, they don't go around trying to

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Speaker 3: attack people, which think christ because.

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Speaker 4: That would be terrible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you're a tarantula, you know, not such

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Speaker 3: good luck.

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Speaker 1: Wow, And they're so widespread. Yeah, so I guess then

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Speaker 1: one of the big questions I keep going back to

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Speaker 1: is is this evil because it sounds like this is

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Speaker 1: while it's horrific for the tarantula, the victim, the incubator,

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Speaker 1: it seems like it's the only way for these these

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Speaker 1: creatures to reproduce. Is that correct?

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Speaker 3: Like there's no alternative, right, and so this is like

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Speaker 3: this is the key question is now, I don't think

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Speaker 3: a wasp is capable of being evil in the sense

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Speaker 3: that we kind of define it because they're so simple.

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Speaker 3: They're basically like robots. So it's like you wouldn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: describe a virus as being evil because it's so simple

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Speaker 3: and even though wasps are a great deal more complex

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Speaker 3: than a virus. I don't think they can have like

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Speaker 3: the intent or the awareness to be evil. But when

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Speaker 3: you look at it, like you kind of take a

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Speaker 3: step back and look at it from like an evolutionary perspective,

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Speaker 3: where it's sort of more of this emergent intelligence from

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Speaker 3: millions of years of evolution, I mean, maybe you can

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Speaker 3: define that as evil. You know, I'm not talking about

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Speaker 3: like intelligent design or like some god control evolutions, talking

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Speaker 3: about like, you know, you have this sort of like

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Speaker 3: guiding force of evolution that is its own sort of

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Speaker 3: like I mean, it is. It is a form of

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Speaker 3: intelligence where it's like you have to really zoom out

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Speaker 3: to see it, where it's just millions and millions of

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Speaker 3: years of these small changes resulting in something that's so

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Speaker 3: so messed up. And maybe that's like a natural form

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Speaker 3: of evil.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I guess that's a very philosophical question.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it is. But it's also interesting because

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Speaker 2: so much of psychopathy is almost like reptilian type behavior,

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Speaker 2: or like non feeling, non empathetic type behavior, which is

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Speaker 2: the kind of things that an insect like this would do, right,

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Speaker 2: like there's no feeling about it. It's just, you know,

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Speaker 2: I must feed, I must feed my baby, and this

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Speaker 2: is how I'm going to go about doing it. It's

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Speaker 2: very callous, for lack of a better term, you know,

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Speaker 2: but you're right, there's no cognition involved. It's just the

433
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: thing that makes sense and that it's adapted perfectly to do.

434
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: But I think we ascribe those kind of things to

435
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: psychopaths as well.

436
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 3: Right, because I think with a human, we're like, you

437
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: should be capable of empathy. But then it's a really

438
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: uncomfortable question because it's a little more clear when you're

439
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 3: looking at a wasp that okay, of course it doesn't

440
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 3: understand what it's doing. But you could also make that

441
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 3: argument for humans who can't feel empathy, like they may

442
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 3: truly not understand the gravity of what they're doing. And

443
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 3: then is that sort of like the wasp where you

444
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 3: can't really blame them, or is there something else going

445
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 3: on with people where it's like, well, you should be

446
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: smart enough to figure out, like does there even need

447
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,239
Speaker 3: to be like an intentionality behind evil, because like if

448
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,959
Speaker 3: it's defined as something where it's like you're incapable of

449
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 3: feeling mercy or empathy. Then maybe just like evil doesn't

450
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 3: need to be like intentionally evil, it's just a force

451
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 3: that doesn't have empathy and then causes harm.

452
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: So then we would be defining evil as not the

453
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: addition of something nefarious or insidious, but the absence of

454
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: an alternative, long term evolutionary strategy, because that's what empathy

455
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: ultimately functions as, right.

456
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah, that's really interesting. It's like we have

457
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 3: because there are some animals who have evolved a survival

458
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 3: strategy that could be seen as like good. So like

459
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: bees are so social and help each other, so you

460
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 3: know a lot of these use social animals. So like

461
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: bees and ants and even naked molerets, they all seem

462
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 3: to team up and pitch in and help each other

463
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: and care about each other as much as like a

464
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: bee can. But it does seem like a kinder sort

465
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 3: of animal in general than a wasp, even though if

466
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: you take a bee and a wasp individually, they don't

467
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: really I don't think they can feel kindness. But you

468
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,719
Speaker 3: look at the whole the group of them, like a

469
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: b colony, does seem to have empathy, for it's like

470
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 3: each other in a weird way.

471
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: So what would a tarantula hawk be in terms of

472
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,239
Speaker 1: the Dark Triad or Dark tetrad, would they would they

473
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: qualify as a sadist.

474
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, Like these very sadistic because

475
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 3: like to keep something alive for up to a month

476
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: and then slowly feed on it.

477
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 4: It's just so.

478
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 3: It seems so unnecessarily cruel, even though as we've talked

479
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 3: about it, there is a reason for it.

480
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that checks out.

481
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: As we've just discussed in the Animal Kingdom. Some of

482
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: the most terrifying examples of sadism are due to reproductive

483
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 3: needs in humans. Some of the most dangerous people are

484
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: those who somehow link sexuality to sadism.

485
00:27:58,720 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 4: This is called a pair off.

486
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 3: It's a form of sexuality that is atypical or pathological.

487
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: Now a huge disclaimer here, I'm not talking about the

488
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: BDSM community. People who engage in BDSM are very different

489
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: from those with sexual sadism disorder. The key thing being

490
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 3: consent in healthy communication. For BDSM practitioners, consent is extremely important.

491
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 3: They may find sadistic acts or masochistic acts to be

492
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: sexually arousing, but not unless their partner is equally interested.

493
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: That's why safe words setting clear boundaries and a lot

494
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: of discussion is often present in these communities, and it's

495
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: also why psychologists don't consider BDSM to be a disorder.

496
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 3: They aren't causing harm to themselves or others while I

497
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: mean psychologically speaking, but sexual sadism disorder is different. People

498
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 3: with this disorder are aroused by the suffering of others,

499
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: and the disorder is either harmful to the individual who

500
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: might find it disturbing or upsetting, or to others in

501
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: the case of sex offenders who seek out non consent

502
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: and victims. What I find interesting is the difference between

503
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: people with sexual sadom disorder who choose not to act

504
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 3: on it and those who do, meaning that there are

505
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: some who either have empathy or at least a fear

506
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: of consequences while still feeling.

507
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 4: These sadistic urges.

508
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 3: I had a clinical psychology professor who put it this way.

509
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: The explosive combination is having both a sadistic paraphilia and

510
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 3: a clinical lack of empathy. Those are the ingredients to

511
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 3: make most types of serial killers. So after a quick break,

512
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: that will bring us to our next member of the dark.

513
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: Tetrad this psychopath.

514
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: So how do you spot a psychopath by the cold

515
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 3: look of cruel indifference in their glassy eyes, the pile

516
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: of bodies in their basements. Well, what about with technology?

517
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: Psychologists have attempted to quantify psychopathy using brain imaging, which

518
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: leads us to one of the most interesting stories in

519
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: brain research. James Fallon is a neuroscientist who was interested

520
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: in looking at the anatomical characteristics found in the brains

521
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: of serial killers. He found a pattern of abnormalities in

522
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 3: the pet scans of these killers, showing structural aberrations in

523
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: the orbital cortex, the prefrontal cortex, the ventral anterior cingulate,

524
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: and the amygdala. As he was shuffling through piles of

525
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 3: brain scans on his desk, he was looking through a

526
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 3: file on his family's brain scans taken for another study

527
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 3: on Alzheimer's. One of the scans had the clear structural

528
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: abnormalities consistent with psychopathy. Curious as to who and his

529
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 3: family was the psychopath, he looked up the name and

530
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: was surprised to find it was his own brain scan. Obviously,

531
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 3: he wasn't a violent killer, so first he wondered if

532
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: all his recent search about the psychopathic brain was just wrong,

533
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: But When he took genetic tests, he found that he

534
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: also had alleles associated with people high at risk for

535
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: exhibiting violent behavior. He did some introspection and decided, instead

536
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: of it being a fluke, he may very well have

537
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: a psychopathic brain. But due to his loving upbringing with

538
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: parents and siblings who were devoted to him, he suspects

539
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: he was able to avoid the more frightening violent traits

540
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: of the psychopath.

541
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 4: But when nature is left to.

542
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: Her own devices, what kinds of deadly killers does she concoct?

543
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: The deadliest serial killers are often harmless looking. They blend

544
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: right in, allowing them to continue their killing while raising

545
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 3: no alarms. As we'll find out, this is true both

546
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: in human society.

547
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 4: And the animal kingdom.

548
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: So speaking of psychopaths, let's talk about cats. So, guys,

549
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 3: which wild cat would you guess is the most prolific

550
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 3: serial killers of them all?

551
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: Wildcat specifically, Let's see, it's probably smaller than one would imagine,

552
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: because naturally people would think something large, like a tiger

553
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: or maybe a lion. But I'm gonna go with something smaller,

554
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: maybe a bobcat or a wild cat.

555
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: That's a really intelligent guess. Yeah, because like you have

556
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: these huge predator cats, so like lions seem really formidable.

557
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: I mean, they have a thousand psi of force for

558
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: their jaw strength, so just for comparison, we only have

559
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: about two hundred psi, so they're so powerful. And you know,

560
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: there's also like the more sleek ones like cheetahs who

561
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: can run up to seventy five miles an hour and

562
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: jaguars who are super like buff and can carry cadavers

563
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: up a tree. But you're right that even those guys

564
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 3: are really terrifying. They're not the most prolific serial killers,

565
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: and we do have to get smaller. In fact, our

566
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 3: most prolific serial killer kitty is one of the smallest

567
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: species of cats in the world, and that includes domestic cats,

568
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: so they're smaller than your household kitty. It's this really

569
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 3: adorable cat. It's called the blackfooted cat. They're about three

570
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 3: times smaller than your pet house cat, and they weigh

571
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 3: in about two to four pounds, so females are around

572
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: two pounds, males can get up to around four pounds,

573
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: and they have a sixty percent kill success rate, which

574
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: if you've ever seen a nature documentary and you see

575
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: how many times a lion us will have a goof

576
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: up and not be able to catch its prey. Sixty

577
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 3: percent is incredible. So they actually look a lot like

578
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: a house cat, but just like kind of shrunken down.

579
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 3: They have big eyes, and they're tan with dark brown

580
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: spots and striations. And they're called black black footed because

581
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 3: their little feets are black. And they're also called ant

582
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: hill tigers because when they're cornered, they'll like, they'll mess

583
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 3: you up, they'll cut you.

584
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 4: They're very aggressive.

585
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at I'm looking at a picture

586
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: of one right now, and I gotta say these cats

587
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: are adorable. They look even better than my two cats.

588
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: My two cats are just you know, cat models. Basically,

589
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: they have that.

590
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 3: Like baby schema because they have the big eyes and

591
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 3: the big four heads and they're they're really tiny and

592
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 3: just super super cute. You would not think these are

593
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: a big threat.

594
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: So what kind of stuff do they hunt?

595
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 3: Well, their prey can be pretty small, so rodents, birds,

596
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 3: pretty much anything that moves, and they can fit in

597
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 3: their mouths though, so they'll do insects, lizards, birds, and

598
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: small rodents are their favorite. They're mostly nocturnal. They'll walk twenty.

599
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 4: Miles a night.

600
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 3: So that's the furthest that any small wild cat will walk.

601
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 3: And I did a little math and if you scale

602
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: that up to human size, that's like walking one thousand

603
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 3: miles a night, which wow, you know, it's like it's

604
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 3: like the Proclaimer's song, like I will walk five hundred months.

605
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: So does that mean these little sweet babies hunt for

606
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: sport just like for kicks? Like why why such a

607
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: high kill rate versus lions who to me seem like

608
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: they hunt more practically and functionally to you know feed.

609
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 3: No, they I mean they just have a rapid metabolism

610
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: and they for the food that they can't eat on

611
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: the spot, they storm their burrows. So it's not for fun,

612
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 3: it's definitely for nutrition. And these smaller animals will actually

613
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 3: have a pretty large nutritional demand because they can't bulk

614
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 3: up a lot of calories and then just like sleep

615
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 3: it off. They have to be constantly eating.

616
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: And to be clear, we're talking about the most prolific

617
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: successful serial killers, not just the most attempts. Is that correct?

618
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 3: I mean they actually rack up a pretty high kill count,

619
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 3: So I would say they are of the big cats

620
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 3: they kill the most per day, so they can take

621
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 3: down around fifteen prey items a night, which is a lot,

622
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 3: and that includes like birds. So if there's a really

623
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 3: cool video I can show you guys, and I'll put

624
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 3: that up on our Twitter where it just like jumps

625
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 3: up and catches a bird midair and it's got it

626
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 3: like jammed in its mouth and it looks very pleased

627
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 3: with itself. But yeah, that's like about a kill an hour.

628
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 3: So that's I mean, these are small prey items, but

629
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 3: you know you scale that down to the size of

630
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: the cow, which is like two pounds of like pure

631
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 3: murderous rage, and that's like, you know, it's like taking

632
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 3: if a lion could take down a small gazelle like

633
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:05,959
Speaker 3: every hour. So they also do it's so cute. They

634
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: do the little butt wiggle, you know that thing like

635
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 3: when your cat is getting ready to pounce and it

636
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 3: like there's a little swigty swootye with its butt.

637
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like Simba and the Lion King.

638
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, they do that.

639
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: They do the little little butt wiggle, and so that's

640
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 3: actually not just to look cute. It helps align their

641
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: feet under them so they can pounce with maximum precision

642
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: and power like a spring and sometimes they do take

643
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 3: down bigger prey though, so they rarely but sometimes kill

644
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 3: cape hairs, which way more than them. They're these relatively

645
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: larger rabbits, So it's just kind of funny because they're

646
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: just like so amped up on being murderous they don't

647
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 3: even think that, oh, maybe this rabbit I can't even

648
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 3: carry it because it weighs like twice of me.

649
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: So is this where the is this where the psychopathy

650
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 2: aspect comes in?

651
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's like I feel like their desire to

652
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: kill these bigger prey items is it's like, clearly, you're

653
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 3: not going to eat that, it's too big. I mean

654
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 3: maybe you know, they do save it for later, but

655
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 3: it's just kind of funny. I don't even know if

656
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 3: they could fit a cape hair in their din. So

657
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 3: it's just killing stuff because they are driven to kill.

658
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, we've all been there.

659
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 2: But that's what my house cat does. That is what

660
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: my indoor outdoor sweet snugly house cat does. Yea, Betty,

661
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: he's not hungry.

662
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 4: Betty doesn't have it.

663
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: Well, Betty doesn't have a sixty percent kill rate.

664
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 2: Though, No, absolutely not. But it's like he is clearly

665
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: toying with these creatures and you know, just like leaving

666
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: them in the most twisted arrays I've ever seen in

667
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: my life. Like it's it's like the well, it haunts

668
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: my dreams. It's it's bizarre that I guess why I

669
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: was asking earlier, like does this creature hunt kind of

670
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: for sport? So I guess some of that does enter

671
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 2: into it. If it's not, it's not even thinking about

672
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: the fact that it can't actually carry it, you know,

673
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 2: the kill away. It just needs to feed the urge, right.

674
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 3: Right, And well, I mean it's really interesting because with

675
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: house cats, obviously they don't need to kill anything at

676
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 3: all because they're getting fed their little kibbles and bits.

677
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 3: But I think they have a desire to hunt. So

678
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 3: they're driven to hunt by this, and it is a

679
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: survival instinct to hunt, because you can imagine if a

680
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 3: cat didn't have that and just waited around for kibble,

681
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 3: if it lived in the wild, it would be done

682
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: an evolutionary dead end. But yeah, I mean, it's we

683
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 3: can't talk to a cat and say like, hey, do

684
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 3: you really enjoy doing this? But my guess would be

685
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: that they do get satisfaction from it, and even though

686
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: it is an evolutionary strategy, and even playing with their

687
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 3: prey has practical reasons like making sure it's dead and

688
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 3: also honing their skills. I mean, they seem to love

689
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 3: doing it, and that is kind of psychopathic, isn't it.

690
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, especially when we consider not

691
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: just cats, but a lot of similar mammals. Their juvenile

692
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: phase is spent playing, and playing is really just a

693
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: less fatal version of the hunting that they will instinctively

694
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: practice later in life. And I can absolutely see from

695
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: a neurological perspective, I can absolutely see an animal as

696
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: evolved as a cat or my cat's enjoying that kind

697
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: of thing. It's scratching an itch. Your body and your

698
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: brain will tell you it's a pleasurable and correct thing to.

699
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 3: Do, right right. I mean, like we do have video

700
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,959
Speaker 3: games where we like to kill stuff. So it makes

701
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: me wonder if we might have something like that deep

702
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: inside us, where we kind of, you know, maybe have

703
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 3: that killing instinct that's just been over many, many hundreds

704
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 3: of thousands of the years of cultural and societal evolution,

705
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: has been sort of put inside a little box and

706
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: locked away, except in the cases of.

707
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: Serial killers, right, Well, in the defense of my cats,

708
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 1: Doctor Vankman and mister Jackpott have to shout him out here. Yeah,

709
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: and that's the real names. In defense of my cats.

710
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: They have at the very least never paralyzed. Someone buried

711
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: them alive and put a kitten inside of their bodies

712
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: to a month.

713
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: But would cute, Like would a kitten bursting out of

714
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 3: a tarantula be cute or horrible?

715
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 4: I can't know.

716
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm on the fence. I'm honestly on the fence.

717
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 3: Because if that was if that was backwards, like a

718
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 3: transla bursting out of a kitten, that would obviously be horrible.

719
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: But when you do it in verse, it's kind of cute.

720
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I still feel bad for the tarantula, but

721
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: you know, hey, it's.

722
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: A kid for sure, so it's pretty crazy. You mentioned

723
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: Fallon the neuroscientist. Yeah, he's actually in this show that

724
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: I'm working on called Happy Face. It's like a true

725
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 2: crime show about the Happy Face killer, and it's about

726
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: this guy's daughter. And in the show, she goes and

727
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: gets analyzed by this guy to try to figure out

728
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: whether she herself has inherited her father's psychopathic tendencies and

729
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because it's like there's a lot of

730
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 2: discussion around it, whether it's like is it all nature,

731
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 2: is it all nurture? Is it a combination of the two.

732
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: Can you really figure out just from someone's brain skin

733
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: whether or not this is true. It seems like a

734
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: very kind of like surfacey way of figuring that stuff

735
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 2: out because it's a combination of a lot of factors.

736
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: But he actually talks a lot about psychopathy in the

737
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: animal kingdom too, and how it's actually can be a

738
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: positive trait. Yeah, Like you know animals that our psychopaths

739
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: will kind of they'll go places that other animals won't,

740
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: and they will actually breed more successfully and things like that.

741
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: It's I'm not explaining it super well, but it's.

742
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 3: No that makes sense, Yeah, because like psychopaths, one of

743
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 3: their characteristics is risk taking and not having a fear

744
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 3: of the consequences. So in some cases that could obviously

745
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 3: be very bad, but for some animals that will bring

746
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 3: you a reward if you are bolder and take a

747
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 3: risk and try something novel, that lack of fear will

748
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 3: actually give you a leg up over your competition.

749
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: That is exactly what he was talking about. You know that.

750
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so long as they survive to reproduce. Yes, right,

751
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: So that's that's that's the Vegas Odds part.

752
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's really interesting. I've actually listened to some

753
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 3: of that podcast. It's so I think that is it's

754
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 3: such a personal perspective on the nature versus nurture because

755
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: she's I mean, from my perspective, she's obviously a very

756
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 3: empathetic person to be so worried about that part of

757
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: her nature, but I can totally imagine how that would

758
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 3: be that you're wondering, like, well, any behavior you feel

759
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 3: where it's like maybe you know you have sean Freud

760
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: of sometime, or you feel angry, you wonder like, well,

761
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: is that me? Or is that like these genes inside

762
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 3: me puppeting me.

763
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you might not have made it far enough

764
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: in the series. I don't want to spoil anything, but

765
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,479
Speaker 2: it does come into play, like the way she's dealt

766
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: with relationships and kind of her emotional kind of closed offness,

767
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 2: and that's a big part of it, and wondering if

768
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 2: she can actually feel things the way quote unquote normal

769
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: people can. So it's something that really like haunts her

770
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 2: and bothers her, and at the end of the series

771
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: she kind of figures out, you know, at least as

772
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: far as this guy's concerned, what she is.

773
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, the story.

774
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 4: Of the most prolific serial killer.

775
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: In human history is one that's more true tragic than gruesome.

776
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 3: Harold Friedrich Shipman was a bespectacled, bearded man, very ordinary

777
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 3: and meek looking. He was a doctor, married and had

778
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 3: four children. Not someone whom you would peg as a

779
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 3: cold blooded killer, but he killed two hundred and eighteen people,

780
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 3: committing crimes undetected.

781
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 4: For twenty three years.

782
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 3: Shipman was a GP who had his own practice near Manchester, England.

783
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 3: He targeted the most vulnerable people as his victims, his

784
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: own geriatric patients. Most of his victims were the elderly

785
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: women in his care to whom he gave lethal doses

786
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 3: of morphine.

787
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 4: He had a typical pattern.

788
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: He would give his victims a lethal dose of diamorphine,

789
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 3: signed their death certificates, and then alter their medical records

790
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 3: to falsely indicate that their health had been in decline.

791
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 3: Shipman was an outlier even among serial killers, as there

792
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: was no clear motive for the crime, except in one

793
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 3: case he altered his victim's will to make himself the

794
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 3: benefit of three hundred and eighty six thousand pounds, something

795
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: the victim's daughter found to be awfully suspicious. So why

796
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: did he kill It's hard to know for certain. As

797
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 3: a teenager, he witnessed his mother received morphine for terminal

798
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 3: cancer until she died of the disease. Some of the

799
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: psychiatrists who've looked at his case speculate that he had

800
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 3: a deep seated need to control other people, something influenced

801
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 3: but certainly not caused in total by his mother's death.

802
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: Another possibility psychiatrists have proposed is that he felt a

803
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 3: sense of relief from stress or pressure by killing his patients,

804
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 3: as he considered them a nuisance. This is the heart

805
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 3: of what a psychopath is. Coldly, flippantly cruel. We need

806
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 3: a minute to clean our brains with images of cute cats.

807
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 3: Wait is that a blackfooted cat? And is that a

808
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 3: baby bird in its mouth?

809
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 4: Oh no, We'll be right back.

810
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: Machiavelianism through the scope of psychology is defined as a

811
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,959
Speaker 3: duplicitous manipulation with a disregard for morality, putting personal gain

812
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 3: before any feelings of empathy. Think Little Finger from Game

813
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: of Thrones, someone behind the scenes manipulating and pulling strings,

814
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 3: causing destruction for others for their own game. But fortunately,

815
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: Machiavelians can only manipulate, not mind.

816
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 4: Control their victims.

817
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 3: However, the natural world is not so merciful. We're going

818
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 3: to discuss a Machiavilian animal that is literally pulling the

819
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 3: strings using real life mind control. So mind control and

820
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 3: hypnosis is often explored in popular culture. From the Manchurian

821
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 3: Candidate to Jessica Jones were fascinated by the idea of

822
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 3: thought control. So, you know the Purple Man and Jessica Jones,

823
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: it's such a creepy villain.

824
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yep, yep, Doctor Who, David Tennant, Yeah, he's.

825
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 3: So lovable in Doctor Who. But then his man he's.

826
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: Just I think, so he's got he's got a good range.

827
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 2: I trust him. You don't trust him as Doctor Who?

828
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 2: Was it after watching Jessica Jones that you stop trusting.

829
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: Him Doctor Who? No, No, I just don't. I don't

830
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:15,959
Speaker 1: trust his mouth.

831
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: Is it because he has a bunch of hearts? He's

832
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 2: got like ten hearts or something.

833
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: That's just shallow?

834
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: That's fair.

835
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, the Purple man for background for Jessica Jones

836
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: emidst pheromones that force people to obey his suggestions, right right, Yeah.

837
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 3: It's like he issues at command and then the person

838
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 3: has to do it because of some kind of metichlorians

839
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 3: or whatever. I haven't watched the whole show, so I'm

840
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 3: not sure, but yeah, that's it's so creepy to me

841
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 3: because like like one of the worst possible sci fi

842
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 3: horror scenarios where serial killer mind controls you into digging

843
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 3: your own grave or just following him into his like

844
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 3: kill basement. But I have bad news for spiders again.

845
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 3: This is a very spider unfriendly podcast. Orb Weaver spiders

846
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 3: are spin these really neat, precise webs. They're actually very

847
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 3: beautiful the webs the spiders are. I mean, I think

848
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 3: they're cool, but people have hang ups about spiders for

849
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 3: some reason. So now wasps again come into the picture

850
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 3: and just are so mean and are such assholes. So

851
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 3: female parasitic wasps lay an egg onto the orb weaver's abdomen,

852
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 3: and if you've been listening, you know, and once a

853
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 3: wasp lays an egg on you, you're in for a

854
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 3: bad time. So the orb weaver is still alive, and

855
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 3: the spider becomes mind controlled by the wasp larva, and

856
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 3: instead of spinning its beautiful lace like web, it dismantles

857
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 3: its web and creates a cocoon for the parasitic larva

858
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 3: to live in. And then, because wasps, again, there are

859
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 3: such huge assholes, the larva will suck on the spider's

860
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: juices until the spider dies, and then the larva just

861
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 3: checks its carcass away like a soda can, and it

862
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 3: makes itself nice and cozy in the cocoon that the

863
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 3: spider had woven for it, against its will. It's so

864
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 3: crazy to me that you can have such a precise

865
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 3: method of mind control that the larva not only gets

866
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 3: to eat its victim but makes it spen a little

867
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 3: cradle for it as it develops and so it can

868
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 3: stay safe.

869
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 4: It's just so creepy.

870
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: So it's slave labor at that point, too.

871
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 4: Right, a slave that you eat later.

872
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 3: Yeah?

873
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. So are these wasps as common as the tarantula hawk.

874
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 3: They aren't as widely distributed, So the ones that we're

875
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 3: going to be talking about are found in Japan. So

876
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 3: researchers in Japan wanted to look into this behavior. Because

877
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 3: it's so crazy how precise that mind control is. And

878
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 3: they found that the cocoon that the zombie spider weaves

879
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 3: for its parasite is very similar to the molting stage

880
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 3: web that the spider, a healthy spider, will weave for itself.

881
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 3: It's a protective cocoon designed to keep the spider safe

882
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 3: while it molts its exoskeleton, and it's actually made out

883
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 3: of this special ultraviolet spider silk so that birds and

884
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 3: flying insects will avoid crashing into it. So like normally

885
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 3: when a spider builds its web, it wants insects to

886
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 3: run into it so that you can eat them. But

887
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 3: if you're all naked and exposed and don't want something

888
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 3: to kill you, you wrap yourself up in like this

889
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 3: neon light of like warning naked spider in here. So

890
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: researchers found that there was higher levels of this substance

891
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: that's called twenty oh ectisone, and it's the same hormone

892
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 3: that controls molting. So in these zombified spiders, they are

893
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 3: being mind controlled into thinking that they're going through their

894
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 3: molting stage. It's unknown how the wasp is actually manipulating

895
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: this hormone, but it's not just mind controlling it into

896
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 3: thinking it's molting. It's actually a step above that because

897
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,720
Speaker 3: it's somehow commanding it to go into this like super

898
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 3: molting mode where it's building an extra strong cocoon, more

899
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 3: reinforced with greater tensile strength than the spider's normal molting cocoons.

900
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: So it's like it's beyond just like thinking it's molting.

901
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 3: It's creating a mega safety bunker for the parasite that's

902
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 3: planning on murdering it.

903
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 1: So wait, wait, So the downside is that you are

904
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: being a mind controlled and then you're going to die.

905
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: But the upside is that you get super strength or

906
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: I guess the equivalent of spider superpowers.

907
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 3: Well, your your webbing does. So you're creating spider silk

908
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: that has is extra reinforced because the molting spider silk,

909
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 3: like in a healthy orb weaver, that's creating a cocoon

910
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 3: for itself to molt inside that that webbing will be

911
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 3: reinforced and stronger.

912
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 4: To protect it.

913
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 3: But for the parasite, it's like it's bringing out the

914
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 3: good stuff. It's bringing out the big guns, the big

915
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 3: webbing guns, and creating really really strong webbing to protect

916
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 3: the parasite. So, I mean, I would think it's not

917
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 3: necessarily clear in the research yet, but I would think

918
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 3: that somehow it's just being flooded with these hormones and

919
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 3: make like this extra strong signal for it to produce

920
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 3: the molting webbing in a way that's like it's over

921
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 3: signaling so that the parasite benefits from the super strong cocoon.

922
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 3: So this is what's called an ectoparasitoid. It's a parasite

923
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 3: who will live externally on its host and eventually kill it.

924
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 3: But some parasitic wasps will lay their eggs directly inside

925
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 3: the spider, and then the larvae eat their way out

926
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 3: of the spider like an alien chest burster.

927
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 4: It's really disgusting.

928
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: And just for a safety check here, there are no

929
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: wasp that do this to people, right, no use, there

930
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: none big enough to do it yet.

931
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 3: Okay, not yet, not that we know can help.

932
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: But think of whatever. Whenever I think about this paras

933
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: parasitic stuff doing things to animals to make them act

934
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 2: against their own self interest, I always think of that

935
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:17,959
Speaker 2: parasitic fungus like erupts out of ants heads. Yeah before right, yeah,

936
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 2: before it does that, doesn't it also do some kind

937
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 2: of crazy mind control that makes them do something that

938
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: like benefits the fungus itself.

939
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, crawls up a stock like

940
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 3: a plant stock, and then it's final. The ant's final

941
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 3: act is to cling onto the stock with its mandibles,

942
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 3: so it its brain is being so manipulated by the

943
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 3: fungus that it's like clinging onto the stock with its mandibles.

944
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 3: And then that's really good for the fungus as it

945
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 3: grows out of its head and then produces spores because

946
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 3: it's got a solid anchor down onto the onto the

947
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 3: plant or the branch.

948
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 5: You know.

949
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 1: One that while we're speaking of parasites, one that worries

950
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: me as a cat owner is Toxoplasma gandhi.

951
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we all probably have that, Like that's why

952
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 2: we're nice to cats.

953
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, so, yeah, you probably if you clean

954
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: up the cats litter box and you don't obsessively wash

955
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 3: your hands every single time, you might have it. And

956
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 3: I mean there's actually a pretty good chance, like if

957
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 3: you've owned cats over a long period of time. It's

958
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 3: generally not a problem for humans unless you're pregnant, in

959
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 3: which it can cause birth defects or miscarriage. And the

960
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 3: other thing it's been linked to is potentially triggering schizophrenia.

961
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 4: That's a very very.

962
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 3: Rare almost just like it's not going to happen to you,

963
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 3: but it it is a documented effect, So they can

964
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 3: a cat can literally cause schizophrenia in a person via

965
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:59,399
Speaker 3: the tea GANDHII. So I think we need to talk

966
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 3: more about how spiders are terribly mistreated in nature. So

967
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 3: there's another mind controlling machiavellian manipulator called the spiderfly, and

968
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 3: it's a fly that injects itself into the spider's abdomen,

969
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 3: lodging itself near the lung. And here's the crazy thing.

970
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 4: It can remain there for.

971
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 3: Years while it completes its development. So once it's finally

972
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: ready to molt and emerge from the spider, it controls

973
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 3: the spider into spinning a protective cocoon, just like we were.

974
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 4: Talking about with the orb weavers.

975
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 3: Then it eats the spider from the inside out, which

976
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 3: is just the worst, but at least these ones are

977
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,919
Speaker 3: kind of cute and fuzzy, so unlike the wasps, the

978
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 3: spiderfly they're sort of like these little bumbling cuties entomologists

979
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 3: fr describes them as having a floating sort of flight,

980
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 3: rather undulating and uncertain. It has the habit of buzzing

981
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 3: around and circles when it falls over on its back

982
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 3: on a smooth surface, often doing this for some time

983
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 3: before it can regain its feet. Most of the time

984
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 3: it is making a high, thin humming sound. So it's

985
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:25,439
Speaker 3: just like it's this dopey, kind of like dorky little fly.

986
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 3: But then it's really horrifying and living inside a spider

987
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 3: for years before killing it.

988
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: And this isn't like a marsupial situation, you know how

989
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: like a Joey can enter and exit the pouch of

990
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: the parent.

991
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:40,919
Speaker 2: It's more like a chest burster.

992
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I can't fly back in and out.

993
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 3: It's a chest burster situation, but with like a cute

994
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 3: little like Elmo esque muppet character, Like if an alien's

995
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 3: just like the chest burster birthstud, it's like it's it's

996
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 3: he low.

997
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm kind of sold.

998
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 2: It reminds me of this terrifying toy my girlfriend got

999
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 2: my daughter for a birthday other day. It's like a

1000
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 2: tiny puppy that lives inside a croissant and you turn

1001
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: the croissant inside out and then the tiny puppy emerges.

1002
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 2: But it's really unclear, like the scale of it, Like

1003
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 2: is it meant to be a tiny puppy or a

1004
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 2: giant croissant? They really don't make that clear. But yeah,

1005
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 2: that's not very sciency at all. But that's what I'm

1006
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 2: picturing this whole time. I'm sorry. I don't know why.

1007
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 4: Toys have gotten weird.

1008
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 2: They really have, they really have.

1009
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,439
Speaker 3: You might be comforting yourself with the knowledge that you're

1010
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 3: not a spider and you're in no danger of a

1011
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 3: fly hiding out in your lungs, But I want to

1012
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 3: tell you the story of the human version of a spiderfly,

1013
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 3: a secret hideaway killer that will have you checking your

1014
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 3: cross spaces tonight. The Dinver spider Man doesn't really deserve

1015
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 3: his name. His real name was Theodore Edward Coney's. He

1016
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 3: was a drifter who in nineteen forty one decided he'd

1017
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,959
Speaker 3: settled down, but there was a little problem. The home

1018
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 3: he chose was already occupied. Coney's found a trap door

1019
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 3: in a closet that led to a tiny attic cubbyhole.

1020
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 3: He went undiscovered for five weeks, leaving his Heidi hold

1021
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 3: to occasionally steal food out of the fridge. One day,

1022
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 3: the homeowner, seventy three year old Philip Peters, discovered Coney's

1023
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 3: as he was foraging for food. Philip whacked Coney's with

1024
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 3: his cane, and Coney's responded by brutally murdering Philip, bludgeoning

1025
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 3: him to death with an iron stove stoker. Police investigated

1026
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 3: the murder, but they found no signs of a break in,

1027
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 3: and though they found the door to the attic, they

1028
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 3: didn't explore it they thought it was too small for

1029
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 3: any human person to fit through. After the murder, the

1030
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 3: victim's wife and the housekeeper reported hearing strange noises in

1031
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 3: the night, and they believed the house was haunted, so

1032
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 3: they moved out and Coney's presence remained unknown. He stayed

1033
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 3: in the vacant house until nineteen forty two, when police

1034
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 3: came to make a routine check and they heard noises

1035
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 3: coming from the second floor. They followed the noise and

1036
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 3: saw a pair of legs vanishing into the trapdoor. They

1037
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 3: grabbed them before he could disappear. He was tried and

1038
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 3: convicted for Phillip's murder and spent his life in imprisonment,

1039
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 3: although really was that a punishment? His sell probably felt

1040
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 3: like a sprawling estate compared to the tiny nook he

1041
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 3: hit away in. So do you have any crawl spaces

1042
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 3: in your home? No reason, just curious, all right, So

1043
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 3: thank you guys for coming on. This is really fun.

1044
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 3: Do you guys have anything to plug?

1045
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for having no skatie yet.

1046
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: You can catch Snola and myself on our show Ridiculous

1047
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: History and come out twice a week. You can find

1048
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: us on Instagram, Facebook.

1049
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 2: All the podcast places, mainly, Yeah, what's the show? We

1050
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 2: kind of just go into some of the weirder, little

1051
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: off the beaten path kind of history nuggets. It's a

1052
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 2: very kind of snackable show. Episodes are like thirty to

1053
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 2: forty minutes, very bingeable. It's a lot of fun to do.

1054
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: And we also do other show called stuff they Don't

1055
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 2: Want you to Know, where we take an open minded

1056
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 2: approach to conspiracy theories.

1057
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 1: I would say we take a critical thinking approach to.

1058
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 2: Conspiracy is much better and more accurate.

1059
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: So you can find us on those shows. You can

1060
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 1: find us all over the regular internet places and wherever

1061
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: you find your favorite shows. You can also when you

1062
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: find us on the social media stuff, just hit us

1063
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 1: up directly. We're pretty approachable, unlike some of the animals

1064
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: that we met in today's episode.

1065
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: We don't bite you guys, aren't or yeah, or inject

1066
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 2: you with paralyzing venom.

1067
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 4: Well that's polite of you, guys.

1068
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: You know, we try to be affable. It's sort of

1069
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 2: like our that's our adaptation is like the super affability.

1070
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is always like been stop injecting people with

1071
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: paralytic agents.

1072
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 2: That was before my time.

1073
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 3: So you can find me at Katie Golden or at

1074
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 3: pro Bird Rights where it's revealed I'm actually a bird.

1075
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 3: And you can check out the podcast every Wednesday on

1076
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 3: iTunes or the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts,

1077
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 3: and just hit us up on Facebook, Twitter, and our

1078
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Speaker 3: website is Creature featurepod dot com. And thanks to the

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Speaker 3: space Cosax for letting us use their wonderful song Exolumina.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.