WEBVTT - Hammer of the Witches 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:13.600 Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:16.400 your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm Julie Douglas. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.200 We are recording this episode on Halloween on the thirty 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.040 one of October, which is kind of fitting because we 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.680 are talking about witches, uh, and we're talking about the 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.040 persecution of which is and the hammer of which is 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.280 the malius mellificarum. We'll get into all that in a minute, 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:36.839 but really the starting point here is, of course, the 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.280 idea of the which the modern idea of the witch 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:46.519 that emerges from past lies, truths, atrocities, all of which 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.160 we're going to discuss in this episode. For your part, Julie, 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.199 what what do you think of when you hear the 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.880 word which, Well, I always think about the archetype, right, 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:56.600 I think about a witch on a broom. I think 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.680 about all the children's stories which are rife with witches, 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.560 from Snow White to the Wizard of Oz, right, which 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:08.080 is are so ingrained in our culture, and so on 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.640 a personal level, I think as a female, it's always 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.200 been of interest to me because I think it's some 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.840 sort of subconscious level when you are a female. You 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.039 know that this is an archetype and that you know, 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:24.399 society has been saying for a long time, you know, 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.360 women have the sort of evil side to them, and 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.160 that's really where the roots of this idea of which 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.040 is comes from. Which we'll discuss and will unpack this 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.240 idea a little bit more later, but backing up and 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.800 sort of looking at this topic, I think it's fascinating 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:44.440 in the context of the last four hundred, six hundred 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:46.840 years of history to try to get a bead on 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.720 psychologically where we're coming from. Um, no matter what topic 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.000 it is that we're covering, there's always going to be 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.559 a bit of flavoring from this idea, of of which 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:59.840 is whether or not we know it just sounds like 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:02.840 a ridiculous statements to say, but kind of looking you 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:07.720 to your own life and look at how stories or 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:13.119 even news stories or fiction is created, and then look 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.320 back to these tales of witches and you will see 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.040 some of some of the roots or the blueprint of 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.680 how we go about our lives. Like from a modern standpoint, 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.040 which the gender issues involved in the idea of the 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:30.040 witch are fascinating. Think of Hollywood, for instance, countless beautiful 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.840 younger actresses, they have all the starring female roles. Then 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.359 they get a little older, what do they inevitably play? 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:38.079 They end up playing witches. I mean, it's almost a 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.000 joke at this point. In fact, I've heard maybe it 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:42.960 was Glenn Close, I want to say, who was joking 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.880 about reaching the age where she suddenly was receiving a 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.840 lot of roles for witches. Yeah, you know which, Like, 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.840 what does that say about us? And certainly the witch 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.679 is an important character in fiction. I always think to 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.079 the witches in Macbeth is just one of the classic 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.880 examples of of eagle witchery in modern fiction and in 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:05.840 our modern understanding of what a witch is. That's obviously 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.080 that's a huge archetype to fall back on. But where 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.960 do these archetypes arise from? That's what we're gonna talk 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:13.959 about in this episode. And one thing we need to 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.080 get out and get clear right off the bat is 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.720 the difference between which and wiccan and uh. For me, 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.079 I mean I tend to I didn't think about this 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:24.720 all that much because I tend to think of them 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.359 in two distinct categories like wickens. To me, those are 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.480 people I know, I know wickens in real life I 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.560 see them, you know, these are people who have a 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:39.360 particular religious, um spiritual belief system and more power to them. 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.840 And then in the other category, I tend to lump 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:47.520 the witches from mcbethum historical witches and everything else. Well. 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.080 And it's so we have weakens in one pocket, and 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.440 we're talking more about in nature based system right um. 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.080 And then we have witchcraft, which is entirely different witchcraft 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.840 we're going to discuss um more in terms of religion 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:05.440 and how it was actually something that was created uh 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:10.200 and not something necessarily practiced by people throughout the ages. 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:17.159 That witchcraft is this largely um fictionalized account all boils 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.720 to the surface around fourteen hundred as well discussed now 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:24.479 before that. You obviously have stories of monsters, hags in 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.960 female female monsters that prey upon on children and cause mayhem. 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.000 Those are as old as his human history, and they 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.640 exist in every society on Earth. Every culture has a 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.120 sort of which and in likewise cultures around the world 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.400 have There are always there's always gonna be a history 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.000 of females who are in important roles that may or 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:51.240 may not have some sort of attributed uh, spiritual or 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.560 or healing powers about them. That's also as old as time. 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.359 But fourteen hundred that's when we see the emergence, the 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.880 real emergen gents of the idea of the evil witch, 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:07.400 the demonic witch. And out of that time bubbles all 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.880 of this horrible witchcraft persecution, right because at that point 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.680 we are people went from looking at which is as 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:20.800 a psychological embodiment of evil and wrongdoing and try to 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:25.480 then say that humans could actually physically embody this idea 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.880 of evil. Okay, so that gives license to do a 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.640 lot of horrible things. And when we talk about horrible things, 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.159 what we are talking about are people who were killed 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.680 and tortured. And from the fourteen hundreds to the seventeen 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:43.200 hundreds and estimated half million people were executed for witchcraft, 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:47.760 were accused and executed, mostly women. Them are women, some 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.760 men and then also children as youngest like seven or 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.480 eight were tried and executed on crimes as hard and 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.440 unbelievable as the sexual relations with a demon. So we're 0:05:58.440 --> 0:05:59.880 going to go and try to do is get to 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:04.400 the bottom of the reason why this happened. Um, try 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.599 to take this long view and look back in history 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.520 and figure out all the different elements that led up 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.640 to this. But I did want to mention that it's 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:13.680 not just in past history. We'll talk a little bit 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.800 more about that later on. Exorcism still take place around 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.520 the world, and the magical thinking involved in all of this. 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.719 We're gonna look at a lot of the different sources 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.640 of this witchcraft persecution, and so many of those sources, 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.560 be they cultural or economic, they're still around today. To 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:32.560 think about that as we move forward. It is absolutely 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.320 relevant to today. And I just wanted to read a 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.320 quick quote from Erica Johng in her book, which is 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.400 she says, clearly, there are pagan beliefs still present in 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.880 our modern world, and none of them inspires in us 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.040 a lust for torturing and incinerating our neighbors here in 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.200 the West. That's what she's talking about. But lest we 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.800 make the mistake of assuming that our ancestors were less 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.880 intelligent than we, a concept known as doom height or 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.919 primeval stupidity, let us think of all the things we 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.440 would kill our neighbors for. That which is not dead, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.720 she is merely hibernating, and which hunting itself, is hardly dead. 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.560 It is merely waiting to be born again under a 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.640 different name exactly. So let's go back to fourteen hundred again. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.560 This is a key point in history where suddenly we 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.840 see this idea of the witch rising to the surface 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.120 of thought in Western Europe. It's interesting if you look 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.640 back before Dred you had plenty of stories of individuals 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:30.200 seeking advice from the devil or his demons, engaging in 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:35.320 various magical spells and and and seeking demonic aid. But 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.600 they were called necromancers. They were They were men. They 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.280 were generally learned men, members of the clergy, or for 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.080 all intents and purposes, scientists or wizards if you will. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.760 They were. They were the kind of people who owned 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:52.240 a library, had access to quote unquote secret knowledge, and 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:57.240 could could really dive into the sort of occultist nonsense, 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:01.080 hardcore and it was it was generally considered that this 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.840 was not something that women were up for. This was again, 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.640 this was something that learned, powerful men did, not some 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.600 crazy woman down the street with too many cats. Okay, 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.680 it was. It was a very sexist idea because you know, 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.120 every all things equal, why shouldn't women be able to 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.480 reach out to the devil for aid? Right prior to 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.760 fourteen hundred when it came to seeking the advice of 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.600 demons and entering packs. It was a man's world for sure. Yeah. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.400 And and necromancer would have been one of a triumvirant 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.000 of dark arts here. So you'd have white magic, dark magic, 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.120 and then you would have necromancy. Yeah. White magic would 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.080 be a stuff like you go to your local healer 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.040 and and he or she would have some sort of 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.840 shamanist expels. So it would be a mixture of things 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.680 that were you know, some of it were probably actual 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.120 folk remedies that worked, and some things that were purely 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:55.000 superstitious and magical thinking. Likewise, the dark magic would be 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.920 your area of putting hexes on things or curses. Um. Again, 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.440 magical thinking uh and too, maybe into a limited extent, 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:07.120 maybe actual folk uh, anti remedies if you will, um. 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.320 But but for the most part, magical thinking in that 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.400 department as well, aimed at harming people. And then you 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.840 had necromancy, which was reaching out into the void, trying 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:21.040 to contact the realms beyond death, trying to contact spirits 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.000 and demons and uh and and really it brings my 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.040 mind back to our previous episode on Luigi Boards and 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:32.280 Bloody Mary in these various semi occult parlor tricks that 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.120 we played at our various sweepovers when we were kids, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.560 Like those were all things that you would do with 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.800 this kind of butterfly in your stomach nervousness, because we 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.600 were reaching out to see if there was something out there, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.679 to see if you could touch this supernatural idea that 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.400 we create in the world. And uh and necromancy was 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.040 was basically that, and on some levels a very learned 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.240 example of that, where you would have books and books 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.120 about how to reach out and touch something that exists 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.480 only in your mind. So to your point, this was 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.840 male territory. And so you would have scholars, you would 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.200 have clergy who would look to this and say, there's 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.319 no way that a woman could be a witch as 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.040 we know, as we have come to term a witch. 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.920 There's no way that she could be or have this 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.040 sort of relationship with the devil and and um, you know, 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.199 fly on broomsticks during the night. It's impossible. So they 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.120 were actually that that was really sort of their position 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.480 on women couldn't assume this this type of power. And 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.760 in the churches, um and certainly you would have stories 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.640 of people doing magical things and because because again magical 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:40.480 thinking is as oldest human history. Likewise, paranormal experience is 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.400 a biological reality. As we've discussed when we've talked about 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.640 UFO abductions and whatnot in the past, those experiences, no 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.840 matter how we color them with with our cultural pigments, 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.200 um things such as sleep paralysis are real and occur, 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.200 and then our interpretation of them that may involve anything 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:02.800 from uh an extraterrestrial to a wood nomp. Likewise, individuals 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.440 of varying degrees of psychosis are going to have experiences 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.240 that do not match up with everyone else's real world experiences. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.880 I mean, the list goes on and on. But if 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.320 you came to the clergy prior to fourteen hundred and 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.920 you said, hey, lady down the road, she's flying around 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.920 at night and summon in goblins, they the official church 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.560 stance was that is nonsense, that does not fly with 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.920 church doctrine. Cut that stuff out. Yeah, And actually there 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.560 were some laws that were saying, hey, there are no 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.000 witches first of all, the second of all, do not 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.840 persecute or kill witches. Okay, so this was generally the 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.079 accepted idea. Yeah, but then that begins to change and 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.640 That's what's so fascinating about this because around fourteen hundred, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.840 not only does the idea of the witch the demon 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:49.120 summoning which arise in Europe, but it is pushed for, 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.520 it is campaigned for, it is the literature is published 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.360 and distributed into the world. Making the case and having 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:58.400 that the point is having to make the strong case 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.360 because prior to four hundred, it was not a generally 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.920 accepted idea that women could women could do this, We're 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.800 doing this. It was a reality that had to be 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:12.880 created by men. Well. Also, you have different religious I 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:17.200 guess you could say sex of um of Christianity who 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:22.160 are really trying to be the completely religious monopoly out there. 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.360 And so we have talked I actually talked about this before, 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.440 but I think it's pretty well known that a lot 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:32.280 of pagan sites where their rituals occurred, you know, churches 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:37.160 were built there. Um, there's a lot of appropriation of Pagans. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.760 You'll see that in saints and in Catholicism. Yeah, you 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:45.120 see if saints, old heroes become saints, old gods are 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.000 wrapped up in demonology and become demons. Uh, the opposite 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.920 been of the various angels before four. This was for 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.280 a few hundred years as a craze of angelology and demonology, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.720 where you were just sort of populating the ranks of 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.400 imagined havens and hells with different demons and angels. So, 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.360 I mean the problem here is that, um, not only 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.240 are you trying to have a monopoly on religion here 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:15.200 through Christianity, but um, you have you have this imaginary, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.040 wicked religion that is basically created by some people in 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:23.599 Christianity to try to further define this this evil and 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.320 work against it, um, and and feel as though these 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.040 persecutions are justified by lines like an exodus, this is 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:37.679 thou shalt not permit sorceress to live. So there seems 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.880 to be these justifications coming online. And in addition to that, 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.960 if you look at previous to the fifteenth century, you 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.320 have a lot of grappling with what is Christianity. And 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.920 we'll talk more about that later about trying to define 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.599 it and order it and take all the different interpretations 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.320 and all of the different writings and come up with 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.280 some sort of cohesive like let's all fall in line 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.800 behind this idea. Yeah, and let's not add to it 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:04.800 too much with a bunch of angels and demons, because 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:06.920 that's that's an example there where the Church had to 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.440 finally say, whoa guys, let's stop making up angels and demons. 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.600 We have enough, We probably have too many. And certainly 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.360 you also see the history of heresy in the adxistence 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.720 of the Spanish Inquisition, um in in the Catholic Church 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.360 that was there too sort of edit the text to 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.200 keep people from adding too much to it, from deviating 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.000 what was perceived to be the core message of Christianity. 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:33.880 So so if you were off message, then you were 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.720 committing heresy right that you were ringed in For instance, 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:41.040 the Dalcinians, they were a heresy that believed not only 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.960 the poverty of Christ, but that everyone should be poor, 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.920 that the Church should be poor, and that the rich 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.720 should be violently opposed, sort of a much bloodier version, 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.800 say of occupy Wall Street. I guess you could say, 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.680 with a certain harsh medieval flare, but that is an 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.000 idea that sprang up and it had to be, in 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.560 the Church's eyes, squelched. But the heresies are all things 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.040 where for the most part the heresies were real. It 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.280 was somebody with an opinion or a view of Christianity 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.160 that that deviated from what was seen as the core path. 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:13.800 You might add some lies on top of that to 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.960 press the case to actually eliminate them, but for the 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.640 most part, they were going after actual beliefs, right, So 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:21.840 I mean this is I mean, if you look at 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.080 the Inquisition and different aspects of the campaign you're talking 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.400 about from eleven to sixteen hundred, and because of religious 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:34.120 or political beliefs, people are are being questioned and they're 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.280 off message, right, they're trying to rein them in. But 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.840 but where we really differentiate with witchcraft is again that 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.080 this is stuff that was almost entirely made up. There 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.800 were no actual witches, not like the ones that that 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.480 the charges and the trials claimed existed. Okay, So so 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.720 in order to try to get a bead on how 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.120 this sort of get this idea of which is sorted 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.280 to get into the fabric of religion and also education, 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.600 you have to understand that colleges and universities were largely 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.720 under the thumb of religion until you know fairly recently. Um, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.720 if you are a degree candidate in theology at the 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.760 University of Paris in the fourteen hundreds, you would be 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:16.120 expected to demonstrate your knowledge of demonology and angelology by 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.800 commenting publicly on the Four Books of Sentences. Now, this 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.360 was a standard university textbook used throughout the Middle Ages 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.720 and into the early Modern period. So already you would 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:32.560 have been steeped in this mythology of demons and angels. Now, 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.240 not only that you are now training, essentially um an 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.800 army of clergyman to then go out into villages, into 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.880 society's all over Western Europe and to spread this word 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:49.000 about demons and angels. So you know, some people say, well, 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.960 how could you know between the years of four and 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.640 fourteen eighty there have been such a seed change in 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.520 this idea of which is and there was h there 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.240 was something that I read and I can't remember. I apologize, 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.120 I can't remember who it was who made this point. 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.879 But he said, well, if you look at the nineteen sixties, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.720 and you look at the civil rights movement, and you 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.480 look at the sea change between nineteen sixties in present day, 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.880 and you consider all the modes of communication we have 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:21.360 that affected this change, Um, it's it's not inconceivable to say, like, 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.119 look back at fourteen hundred and realized that this was 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.919 all bubbling up, all of this sort of doctrine about 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.800 which is and evil and demons and angels um. So 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:39.359 that when something like this publication of Malius Maleficarium get 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.080 arrives on the scene in fourteen eighties six, that it's 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.399 really running with the idea of demons and which is 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:53.679 in creating a blueprint really for um, particularly Catholicism, to 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:58.840 follow through on what they think is essential to man's nature, 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.760 in particular when them, Yeah, Mallius malificarum is is a 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.480 key text when you when you look at the history 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.919 of witchcraft, persecution and just the idea of the witchcraft. 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:12.159 This was published again the work of Heinrich Kramer, Hammer 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.520 of the Witches, and it is a guide book to 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.680 identifying which is, knowing what they're up to and then 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:24.200 persecuting them or well, I guess prosecuting them and executing 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.040 them if you want to use the of the book, 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.199 because the book is making the the argument that all 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.879 of this is real and pressing it really hard. Is 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.080 a book that we used in part on this episode 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.920 called Demon Lovers by Walter Stevens, and he's primarily concerned 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.879 with the accusation that existed in all of these trials 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:45.360 that witches were engaged in physical sexual activity with demons. 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.520 That's his his The whole book is an exploration of that. 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:50.480 But he also does a great job of just really 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.440 diving into two witchcraft in general. But there's a whole 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.639 section where he just takes apart Malius malificarum and and 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.080 analyzes what Heinrich Kramer is doing in each part, Like 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.680 what is he thinking is he's writing this and he's 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.479 having to make really strong cases to again press the 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.639 idea that there are female which is out there, that 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:11.960 there are women out there in the world that are 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:17.720 actively engaging not only impacts and spell work with the 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:23.080 devil and his demons, but in actual physical sexual contact 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:27.600 with demons. Right and knowing that that they can shape 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.679 shift into animals, they can ride the brooms through the air, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:37.560 the broomsticks, um, they can cause um spontaneous abortions, um, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.440 just by that the exterior touch that they affect the weather, 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.240 they can create hill storms. Yeah, I mean he's not 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:46.520 he's not preaching to the converted here. This is not 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.200 a book where it came out and was like, oh yeah, 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.200 I picked up him on Hendrick's book because this is 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.160 everything I believe in already they would already have bought 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:55.840 into some of it, certainly, But again the demonology and 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.840 anginal angeology craze and post fourteen D the witchcraft thing 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:03.119 was already gaining steam. But this comes, and this just 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:08.239 pushes it even even further. It was the authoritative text Um. 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:10.239 Let me read a bit from it, Um, And of 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.200 course it came out in Latin, by the way, and 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.360 within thirty five years there were twenty different editions, so 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.280 it was a very popular book among the learned. This 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.439 is a bit from it. It says, which is offered 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.119 to devils or otherwise kill the children that they do 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.439 not otherwise devour, They cause abortion, kill infants in the 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.160 mother's womb by a mere exterior touch. Um also said 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:35.240 that midwives offered newborns to the devil at birth, and 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.320 that a woman knows no moderation and goodness or advice. 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.959 Devils do these things through the medium of women. So 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.840 again a lot of effort is being made by men 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:49.840 like Heinrich Kramer into making this argument, this very strong argument, 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.600 that women are engaging in witchcraft and engaging in physical 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.959 contact with demons. Why that's the that's the big question, 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.320 right as we look back through the ages, why does 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:01.520 this suddenly be I'm such a pressing issue. Why are 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:05.560 men wasting their lives and committing and when ultimately either 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:10.080 committing or inspiring a horrible atrocities in the name of 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.920 this ridiculous idea. And this is an important thing to mention. Two, 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.000 When we look back on witchcraft persecution, we have a 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.680 habit to think, oh, that was the Middle Ages. People 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.199 were stupid, people were crazy religious, and it was just 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.520 a violent or horrible time. So yeah, of course, horrible, 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.920 violent stuff like this is gonna happen. But the more 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:30.359 you look at when you look at what people were 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.000 writing in in these days and before and after, and 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.200 when when you start really analyzing the culture, you see 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.199 this wasn't really the case. I mean, it was a 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:42.760 different world, uh for sure, but it was it was 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.960 still an age in which you had reasoned men and women. 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.359 When you when you had educated men who were not 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.440 only exposed to a bunch of theological garbage about angels 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:58.120 and demons, they were also engaging in older philosophical text 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:00.679 They were familiar with the works of Aristotle. They were 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.480 in touch with individuals who were trying to understand how 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.160 the observable world works, and not only what was happening 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:13.240 happening in some unobservable spirit world. So bear that in 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.159 mind as we move forward. So, why was this happening? 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:17.840 It wasn't. It's not. So it's not just a case 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.120 of men deciding, Hey, I bet which is exists. Let's 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:23.120 make a case for it. What other energy is involved 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:26.680 in this pursuit? Well, again, I think part of it 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.320 is Christianity trying to assert itself in fallen line under 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:35.359 one doctrine. And so throughout history you had different um 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:39.960 takes on women and their their part in society. But 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.399 here is the dark view of women. Here's this idea 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.280 that women are weak and therefore they are subject to 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.359 being vessels of of demons. Um. You also have this 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:53.280 idea of women during this time coming into play, this 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:57.680 idea that women aren't necessarily companions to say, like their 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:02.399 their husbands, their counterparts. Um, there are more just you know, 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.359 part of what your wealth is, your accumulation of wealth. 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.199 And so if you if you begin to objectify this 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.880 person and and sort of say, okay, there's some distance 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.239 between me and this other person and not look at 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.320 them just as another human, then if you can see 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.840 how the Church sort of runs with this idea of well, 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:23.399 let's have the female as this embodiment of evil and 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:26.480 not just like you know this, hey, let's this is 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.960 our game plan for this century. But um, but you 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.720 know you have clergy clergyman who have been steeped again 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:36.520 in this sort of mythology, this mysticism, because think about 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:39.399 this is particularly in Catholicism. This is a religion that 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:44.000 that really relies on mysticism. Okay, this idea, um, that 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:47.800 there's all these unseen forces. Um. And if a woman 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:51.560 can embody that she can be the lightning rod, then 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.679 not only can she be sort of the scapegoat for 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:59.199 for everything, um, she can really play to this idea 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:03.880 of magical thinking which is already going on. Um if 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.400 you look at, say, for lack of a better word, 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:11.280 during this time, the lower classes merchants, peasants who are 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:14.200 really attached to magical thinking and panganism. So if the 0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:16.920 Church can take this and run with it, then they 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:19.719 can exercise some sort of control over society. And then 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:23.080 there's also the idea that so the Christian world, the 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:25.320 medieval world, and to a lart extent, the modern world, 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:28.919 is highly matriarchal, but especially in this stage, you have 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.840 men at the top of it. You have a religion 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:34.119 and governments that are filled with men, and you have 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:39.119 a religion that has a male god. So the idea 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:41.119 is that if you go back far enough in history, 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:44.280 in fact, if you if you actually transition out of 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.719 recorded history, you find that the old religions are not 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:54.240 strictly male religions. They're not completely occupied by masculine gods 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:58.960 that are that are occupied with with with ideas of violence. Right, 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:01.119 And I know I want to go deeply into this, 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:03.560 but when you say the old religion, there are some 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:08.960 accounts of actually Jesus having um. I guess you could 0:25:09.000 --> 0:25:11.800 say very different things to say than what is documented, 0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:14.720 and that his relationship with Mary Magdalen was very different, 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:17.400 and that there was more of a sort of equals 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:22.560 um in play there in terms of their their relationship. 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:25.600 Oh yeah. And then you also have traditions, especially in 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:30.320 medieval art, where you see increasingly feminine portrayals of Jesus Christ. 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:32.800 The idea and the idea of being there that people 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:36.760 were connecting more with a feminine godhead than they were 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:40.520 with this uh, this Old Testament bearded man who liked 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:44.000 to destroy cities, and that was something that again when 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:46.560 the Church was rooting out heresy and trying to to 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:49.199 edit down what they actually were, this is one of 0:25:49.200 --> 0:25:52.800 the things that they went after and said, guys, let's 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.440 let's chill with the female Jesus Is because you're you're 0:25:56.760 --> 0:25:59.840 bordering on heresy here. The basic idea here is that 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:03.720 in our past we had more of a matriarchal view 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:08.119 of the universe and of nature and of the gods 0:26:08.160 --> 0:26:10.600 that ruled over nature, and then over time that is 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:16.320 replaced with the patriarchal Godhead, and throughout history then the 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:22.440 patriarchal side has to continually reinforce the wall, to reinforce 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:26.080 the barriers and keep the matriarchal view from from working 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:30.560 its way back into into our thinking. And who is 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:35.160 the one human in Catholicism, uh, who would be closest 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:37.400 to God? Well, that would be the Son of God 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:41.720 right well? Or living Oh, that would be the Pope 0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:45.440 right So in four four you have a papal proclamation 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:49.479 by Pope Innocent the eight who essentially says, all right, 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:52.240 let's let's go after which is and then this results 0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:58.040 in this continent wide genocide of people. Yeah, so misogyny 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:02.400 is a is a definite theory and and certainly there's 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:05.960 no denying misogyny plays a role in witchcraft persecution because 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:11.320 it's mostly men convicting mostly women on entirely trumped up 0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:15.240 charges of supernatural activity. Uh and uh. And people like 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:18.359 Heinrich Kramer again are making a case in their books 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:21.720 for the inherent evil of women. So I mean, it's 0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:25.679 it's a no brainer, and it's it's horrible, but but 0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:28.240 it's it's undeniable that misogyny plays a huge role in 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:30.119 all of this. So again, that's sort of where you 0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:33.200 see the sea change coming into play, where between fourteen 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:36.800 hundred and fourteen eight four six and Mallius Mala Krum 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:40.560 comes on the scene, you see in Earnest Christianity sort 0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:43.280 of going after this idea of witchcraft and really developing 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:46.640 the idea of witchcraft and adding to the mythology of it. 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:49.520 So yeah, learned men are developing it, they're publishing it, 0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:53.080 books like like the Malleus mall of Acram are making 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:55.680 its way out there spreading the idea, and it's it's 0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:59.080 trickling down then to the lay people. The normal people 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:02.440 out there in their villages and uh, and this is 0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:04.639 important to note too, because it's not misogyny is one 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:08.600 of the the the powers in play here. But then 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:11.480 also on a local level, you're gonna have people engaging 0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:13.960 in the same old craft that people always engage in, 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:18.800 petty disputes, spite, mistrust of outsiders, mistrust of the crazy 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:21.239 lady with all the cats, that kind of thing. So 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:27.440 when the the environment for witchcraft persecution takes hold, um, 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:30.440 you're gonna see some petty disputes that are going to 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:32.480 be taken care of on a local level via the 0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:36.240 witchcraft trial system. You're gonna see you can see people 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:38.480 on the local level by into it, by into the 0:28:38.480 --> 0:28:41.720 paranoia that the church and learned the members of society 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:45.640 are passing down. So it begins to distill through society. 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:48.840 So rather than looking at say some livestock that I 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:53.960 lost in you know, say four um as a product 0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:56.040 of let's say a parasite, I might look to my 0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:59.040 neighbor and say, ah, they put a spell on me. Yeah, accursed. 0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:03.560 We love to blame somebody for for something that happens, 0:29:03.600 --> 0:29:05.640 you know, be it if something bad happens to our animal, 0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:07.600 better that we can point a finger at somebody or 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:10.000 something and if that somebody and something happens to be 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:12.840 that strange guy who lives on the edge of town 0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:16.320 or that weird looking woman and the devil, so be 0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:20.400 it right. And likewise, children are dying. All sorts of 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:25.360 horrible things are happening because there's death and childbirth. It's 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:28.200 the Middle Ages. Life is tough, just as life is 0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:31.520 tough today, and people are gonna seek excuses, they're gonna 0:29:31.520 --> 0:29:33.480 see answers, and if they can find somebody to blame 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:36.520 for something like this, all the better, right, Yeah, absolutely, 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.440 And so what you're starting to see is is a 0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:41.479 bit of a flavor of the social contract. At that time. 0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:45.360 We've talked about the social contract and various podcasts about 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.440 how we all have signed onto it, whether or not 0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:50.520 we know it. So what we're seeing here is this 0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:54.600 script really for what's happening in life, and the script 0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:59.360 is being provided, uh, usually by the local clergy m. 0:29:59.640 --> 0:30:01.520 So we're gonna take a quick break, but when we 0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:04.280 get back, we're going to talk about the script and 0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:12.680 how it is used in confessions in torture. All right, 0:30:12.720 --> 0:30:16.600 we're back. So we've we've discussed what was happening post 0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:20.000 fourteen hundred, Essentially this war on women begins. I mean 0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:22.560 that term is thrown around today, and I'm not saying 0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:25.440 it's completely pointless to throw that term around today, But 0:30:25.640 --> 0:30:29.680 in the post four world this there's a lot of 0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:32.080 truth to the idea. Well. And that's not to say 0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:36.160 that this happening in the subteen hundreds doesn't somehow inform 0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:39.160 our idea of what the war on women today is like. 0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:42.080 It certainly does. But an important part of this, of course, 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:45.000 is that ultimately, if you're you can accuse people witchcraft 0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:49.880 all day, but ultimately you're you're gonna need them to confess, 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:52.440 they have at least enough civility that they need them 0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:55.400 to confess. You need And it comes down to, if 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:58.080 you're gonna make this horrible case and you're ultimately going 0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:01.400 to do something horrible, you need need the victim of 0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:06.000 this to buy in, or at least seem to buy 0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:09.240 into the idea. You need some sort of acknowledgement that 0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:11.880 what you're doing is real. Yeah, there are no Miranda 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:15.280 rights here and now due process, no guilty or innocent 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:19.600 until proven otherwise. Um, you essentially have you know, if 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:22.760 you think about This is called the witch craze. And 0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:25.200 if you have fingered someone and said that you are 0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:27.280 a witch, then you certainly have an audience that is 0:31:27.320 --> 0:31:29.719 waiting for you to prove that right. So you have 0:31:30.160 --> 0:31:33.160 witch theorist. You have people like Heinrich Kramer who are 0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:35.000 coming up with all of the ideas of what should 0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:38.320 be happening and essentially what a witch a convicted which 0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:40.959 should be telling her interrogator. And then you have an 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.360 interrogator whose job it is to go talk to the 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:47.200 witch and get this story out of her. Now, I 0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:49.440 believe you have some of the questions to which would 0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:52.160 be asked, and we're going to run through those, or 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:53.800 at least some of them real quick, just give you 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:57.560 a taste of what kind of charges were being leveled 0:31:57.760 --> 0:32:00.600 and what kind of answers were being sought. And these 0:32:00.600 --> 0:32:03.120 are eighteen questions. I'm not gonna go through all of them, obviously, 0:32:03.160 --> 0:32:06.000 but um and I think try to take the position 0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:08.120 of the person who is accused of being a witch 0:32:08.640 --> 0:32:11.840 and having these questions applied to you over and over again, 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:13.880 and which you began to see is that you're being 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:16.240 told in the script right. And I remember again, there 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:19.600 are no witches. Nobody is doing the things that this 0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:22.000 this question like put the fiction out of your mind, 0:32:22.000 --> 0:32:23.560 all right, So how long have you been a witch? 0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:26.320 Why did you become a witch? Why did you become 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:28.959 a witch? And what happened on the occasion? What demon 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:31.960 did you choose to be your lover? What was his name? 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:35.000 What was the name of your master among the evil demons? 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:38.360 What was the oath you were forced to render him? 0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:41.280 How it starts to get a little bit more involved 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:44.360 in more more colored here, Um, how did you make 0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:48.120 this oath? And what were its conditions? Where did you 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:51.440 consummate your union with your incubus? Because it goes on 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:54.479 and on to say, uh, what is the ointments with 0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:57.400 which you rub your broomstick made of? How are you 0:32:57.440 --> 0:33:00.800 able to fly through the air? That do all the questions, 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:03.880 but it talks about the cyber than quet every little 0:33:03.920 --> 0:33:08.320 detail of what the church thinks is going on with 0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:10.920 which craft because the ultimate story here is that the 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:14.760 woman is engaging in sexual relations with a demon. Oftentimes 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:18.160 this will initially start with oh, there, I saw this 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:22.080 handsome fella, and then we started fooling around fella. Yeah, 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:24.080 because that's a that's another important and then if it's 0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:26.520 a man being accused, it's a woman. But but it's 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:31.240 never a male demon and a male um human engaging 0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:33.360 in sexual activity, because the writers of this is like 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:37.320 the idea of of homosexual relations between even a demon 0:33:37.360 --> 0:33:39.920 and a human was was just too much for them 0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:42.760 at the time, And that's a whole separate issue. But 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:44.960 the case again would be all right, you you saw 0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:49.160 somebody attractive, you started messing around with them, and inevitably 0:33:49.280 --> 0:33:52.520 you end up noticing something unnatural about them. Generally they 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:54.640 would have like the feet of a goose. That was 0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:57.560 actually in a number of accounts. And the argument here 0:33:57.600 --> 0:34:01.040 is that, well, God would never completely one over allowed 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:02.960 the demons to pull one over you completely. You'd have 0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:05.520 to have some sort of sign so that the faithful 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.520 could back out of it. And then only your sinful 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:11.200 nature would allow you to keep going with this. Right, 0:34:11.360 --> 0:34:14.440 so you engage in sexual relations with this demon. You 0:34:14.480 --> 0:34:18.279 eventually end up traveling via the air or some sort 0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:21.759 of unnatural steed to go to this sabbath where all 0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:24.080 the other witches and their demons would gather, and maybe 0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:27.839 the Horned One himself would appear before you. But never 0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:30.880 would you be engaging in actual relationships with the devil. 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:34.319 Because even though we're we're we're giving a lot of 0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:37.759 power to women with these charges of witchcraft, you don't 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:40.080 want to give them too much power. Again, the misogyny 0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:41.879 still has to be in play, and you don't want 0:34:41.880 --> 0:34:44.200 to imply that, yes, this, uh, this woman on the 0:34:44.280 --> 0:34:48.200 edge of town is important enough to actually um mess 0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:51.680 around with the Prince of Darkness himself. So it's not 0:34:51.719 --> 0:34:54.080 really her power. It's the Prince of darkness, right right, 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:57.359 It's never her power, because heaven forbid, we'd give her 0:34:57.360 --> 0:34:59.600 too much power. Likewise, a lot of the things she's 0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:03.239 a tribute with, for instance, making men's penises disappear, which 0:35:03.239 --> 0:35:06.359 was a big charge along with impotence and various other 0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:09.000 things of that nature. With the disappearance of the penis, 0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:11.720 it would be a charge of illusion. They're not actually 0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:15.920 powerful enough to manipulate physical reality in this instance, but 0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:18.560 they can create the illusion of it happening. So you're 0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:22.879 giving them tremendous attributing with them tremendous power, but it's 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:25.680 not their power and there are limits on it, and 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:29.760 you can't blame God too much for this happening. So okay, 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:33.480 you have the the script, you have the idea of 0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:36.480 what witchcraft is. No doubt that has been bandied about 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:39.839 in pubs and various villages and all sorts of talks about. 0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:42.439 Really what we're talking about here is the Boogeyman. So 0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:46.080 now you have um, you have to have these questions answered. 0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:48.080 We have to have these questions answered. How do you 0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:52.319 force someone to answer these questions? Unfortunately, the reality as 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:56.560 you put the screws to them literally literally in most cases. Now, 0:35:56.560 --> 0:35:59.520 it's interesting you look at some of the differences between 0:35:59.560 --> 0:36:02.680 which for secution in England and which persecution in mainland Europe. 0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:06.480 And in mainland Europe they had full use of torture 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:09.640 at their disposal, you name it, they could employ it. 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:13.319 Now you'll look around and on the internet and you 0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:16.560 can find any number of lists of horrendous torture devices, 0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:20.080 and certainly they're there are a number of inventive and 0:36:20.080 --> 0:36:25.040 then sometimes um, possibly fictitious items out there. When when 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:27.320 you really come down to it, though, and if you 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:29.600 really start looking at the history of torture, there are 0:36:29.600 --> 0:36:33.960 a number of very basic things that people have been 0:36:33.960 --> 0:36:36.560 doing to each other since time out of mind, they're 0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:39.120 not that inventive they're not that creative, but they work 0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:43.120 their ways to inflict pain and ultimately make the the 0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:47.680 tortured individual confess to anything you tell them to. Now 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:51.160 you start, say, using a thumb screw on somebody, they're 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:53.880 gonna scream. They're going to eventually give up on their 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:56.560 principles unless they have some sort of as we discussed 0:36:56.560 --> 0:37:00.000 in our Martyrs episode, some sort of extenuating circumstance going 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:02.560 on with their body or their mind, they're gonna they're 0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:05.120 going to break and so they're going to confess to anything. 0:37:05.160 --> 0:37:08.279 They'll confess to running around with the devil himself. And 0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:10.879 that's why the script is provided, because you don't want 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:14.040 them to confess to things that are disagreeable with your 0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:16.800 world view, such as the idea that they are best 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:20.000 buds with the demon with the head devil himself. Again, 0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.360 that doesn't jive with the with the overriding misogyny of 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:26.880 of the claim. So you have to use these questions 0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:30.560 to draw unbelievable, untrue things out of the torture victim. 0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:33.400 But again coming back to the UK, they did not 0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:37.680 have full torture available to them in the persecution of witches. 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:41.759 They actually weren't able to burn witches in England. Yeah, 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:44.600 and in the persecution they were not able to administer 0:37:44.680 --> 0:37:47.080 all these different modes of torture. So these stories that 0:37:47.160 --> 0:37:49.400 they were able to get out of the the women 0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:52.720 in England were different. They were they were more tame. 0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:56.440 So while in mainland Europe you'll find just ridiculous accounts 0:37:56.840 --> 0:38:00.680 of just all sorts of gory sexual details, you won't 0:38:00.680 --> 0:38:03.000 see that as much in UK, which is you'll see 0:38:03.080 --> 0:38:06.480 charges of well, she has a weird cat that is 0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:09.440 a demonic familiar, and she has a strange nipple on 0:38:09.480 --> 0:38:12.120 her body that she's probably milking it with that kind 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:16.000 of thing, while the mainland European which is flying off 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:18.200 and engaging in a demonic orgy, that kind of thing. 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:22.680 But again you're resulting to your physical pain to get 0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:25.400 these confessions out of out of many of these women, right, 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:28.040 So you're talking about thumb tacks versus you know, something 0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:30.480 like the rack being stretched on the rack um and 0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:33.000 the types of confessions that that would come out of 0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:37.080 that situation. UM. I wanted to read a quick excerpt 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:42.360 from a letter from accused which Johannes Genius, burgomaster at Bamberg, 0:38:42.880 --> 0:38:47.160 who detailed his torture and his confession in a goodbye 0:38:47.280 --> 0:38:50.080 letter to his daughter Veronica. Yeah, to set this up, 0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:53.000 this was in the Bavaria, all right, And this was 0:38:53.040 --> 0:38:56.000 a case where this was no weird outsider in the 0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:59.200 edge of town. This was a successful and learned man. 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:04.960 His wife had been executed on on witchcraft charges previously, 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:08.279 and he was an outspoken critic of what was going on, 0:39:08.400 --> 0:39:12.960 and eventually, uh surprise, surprise, the witchcraft allegations were leveled 0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:16.600 at him as well. So if he writes many hundred 0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:20.319 thousand good nights, dearly beloved daughter Veronica, innocent? Have I 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:23.160 come into prison? Innocent? Have I been tortured? Innocent? Must 0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:26.640 I die? He goes on to talk about some of 0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:30.800 some of the conversations he has with his um torture, 0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:35.520 and he says, the executioner put the thumb screws on me, 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:38.279 both hands bound together, so that the blood ran out 0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:40.920 at the nails and everywhere, so that for four weeks 0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:43.440 I could not use my hands, as you can see 0:39:43.440 --> 0:39:46.960 from the writing. Thereafter they first dripped me, bound my 0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:49.719 hands behind me, and drew me up in this torpado. 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:52.879 Then I thought heaven and Earth were at an end. 0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:55.840 Eight times did they draw me up and let me 0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:58.920 fall again, so that I suffered terrible agony, And so 0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:01.360 I made my confession, but it was all a lie. 0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:04.800 Now follows, dear child, what I confessed in order to 0:40:04.920 --> 0:40:07.800 escape the greatest anguish and bitter torture which it was 0:40:07.840 --> 0:40:11.080 impossible for me longer to bear. And he goes on 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:13.480 and on to discuss it. So what we're talking about 0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:18.000 with estrapado is essentially tying the victim's arms behind his 0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:20.560 or her back and then hanging weights to the feet 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:24.120 and hoisting that person into their over and over again 0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:28.160 until that person confessed. And obviously arms would come out 0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:30.200 of socket. So it is very rough on on the 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:36.400 physical body, and um, absolutely a ton of agony would result. Yeah, 0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:40.520 it's a it's a horrible story that of of poor Johannes. 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:43.800 There's another segment from his his letter where he mentions 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:46.560 the executioner leading him back to his prison all right 0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:50.680 after after he suffered, and but before he's he's completely broken, 0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:53.520 and the executioner says to him, says, sir, I beg you, 0:40:53.600 --> 0:40:56.360 for God's sake, confess something, whether it be true or not, 0:40:56.480 --> 0:40:59.120 invent something for you cannot endure the torture what will 0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:01.480 be put to you, And even if you bear it all, 0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:04.520 you will not escape, not even if you were an earl. 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.440 But one torture will follow another until you say you 0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:10.359 were a witch. Not before that, he said, will they 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:13.360 let you go? As you may see by all the trials, 0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:17.040 for one is just like another. So and and that's 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:19.319 that's key there too. And Walter Stevens in his book 0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:21.160 really points out that that I did it. One trial 0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:24.560 is just like another. This is a factory industry. Here 0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:28.000 there is a process with a desired result, with a 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:31.719 desired confession that that has to be met too to 0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:35.520 carry out this idea and to make this idea real 0:41:35.640 --> 0:41:39.080 in everyone's minds. Well and not you don't have just 0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:42.440 a Malle's Mouth carum as a text. You also you 0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:44.759 have many other texts out there there are reinforcing this 0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:48.680 idea of which is in the hammer and having to 0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:51.840 to really use brute force. I mean, it's kind of 0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:53.880 like when you think today about anyone who has a 0:41:54.440 --> 0:41:58.880 fringe idea, whether it's a belief in Bigfoot or some 0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:02.640 sort of crazy left or right wing conspiracy theory. They 0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:05.680 have a shelf of books devoted to that. They have 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:08.279 website sites they can go to. Maybe they even have 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:10.200 you know, a TV channel they can they can turn 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:12.800 into as well to have those ideas reinforced. And again 0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:15.839 for the for the witch theorists, the worst witch persecutors, 0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:18.440 and just the average joe. Even there, there's a lot 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:20.560 of material out there to back up this world view. 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:23.879 That's right. So you're exactly right. So if you think 0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:26.279 about Bigfoot today and all the sort of sort of 0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:28.799 information that's out there that can try to construct this 0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:33.600 story for you, um, with absolutely very similitude, the same 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:37.520 thing as going on is this confirmation bias, totally completely 0:42:37.560 --> 0:42:42.200 trying to select texts and ideas that line up with witchcraft. 0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:45.520 And I wanted to read this this quick excerpt from 0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:50.440 text called Strips by Jian Fresco uh Pico della Mirandola, 0:42:50.880 --> 0:42:54.160 and he says, um, speaking of a hammer, he says, 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:56.799 theologians will tell you that these things can be done 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:59.279 by the by the devil. And you can understand many 0:42:59.280 --> 0:43:03.680 examples from the book of Germans Friar Heinrich and Friar Jacob, 0:43:03.760 --> 0:43:06.840 excellent theologians of the Dominican order called the hammer, and 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:09.160 you can have this hammer if you want to use 0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:11.480 it against those who are hard headed and do not 0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:14.240 want to believe the truth, So you can either bend 0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:16.640 them to believe what they are supposed to or else 0:43:16.760 --> 0:43:20.839 smash them into a hundred thousand pieces. Yeah, again, this 0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:25.680 is this idea that is fueling all these atrocities. So 0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:27.960 if you look back at this time period and it 0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:31.319 just seems too ghastly to be true, you have to 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:35.880 remember again these texts are informing confirmation bias, but also 0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:39.600 cognitive dissonance is at play. Yeah, this is really important. 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:41.600 You mentioned the texts that people are coming back to 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.279 because again they're they're having to work really hard, and 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:46.480 this was something that did not exist a four fourteen hundred. 0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:49.440 They do bring this ridiculous idea into the world that 0:43:49.520 --> 0:43:52.160 again would have been not just not just talking as 0:43:52.160 --> 0:43:55.720 a modern observer, this would have been ridiculous pre fourteen hundred. 0:43:56.440 --> 0:43:59.200 That you have to enforce this idea and make a labored, 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:03.200 intensive k for it being true. So they're turning to 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:05.640 all of the text they're finding support in the Bible, 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:08.400 and obviously there's some places there where you can find 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.520 some meat for the idea of female which is but 0:44:11.560 --> 0:44:15.560 then they're turning inevitably to Aristotle. Aristotle was the most 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:19.440 revered of the the the old philosophers, among the learned 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:22.040 in medieval times, like this was this was the guy, right, 0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:27.279 his observations about life and observable reality and speculations on 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:30.960 on things beyond that they ring true, and this man 0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:33.600 was really esteemed for the way that he viewed the world. Well, 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:38.640 he was hybeological and very much into categorizing everything and 0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:42.879 making sense of the world and cataloging it. Yeah, but 0:44:43.320 --> 0:44:46.319 it's it's really difficult, if not impossible, I mean, really 0:44:46.320 --> 0:44:49.560 it's impossible in several places to unify the works of 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:53.120 Aristotle with Christian theology. All right, that didn't didn't stop 0:44:53.160 --> 0:44:57.000 people from trying. But ultimately with Aristotle you find that, 0:44:57.080 --> 0:45:00.359 i mean, Aristotle did not believe in the immortality of 0:45:00.400 --> 0:45:03.120 the human soul. And of course, yeah, a big part 0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:06.200 problem because most of Christianity is about the fact that 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:08.719 when we die there is something else, that there's something 0:45:08.800 --> 0:45:13.640 immortal in ourselves and in the world. So you see 0:45:13.640 --> 0:45:16.120 a certain amount of cognitive dissonance there where someone is 0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:19.319 is saying, hey, Aristotle is great. Christianity is the thing 0:45:19.320 --> 0:45:23.280 that defines my life. But in between, there's this burning question, 0:45:23.320 --> 0:45:25.640 these two things. Why don't these two things go together? 0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:28.360 What is wrong? But we've talked about cognitive distance before. 0:45:28.719 --> 0:45:32.239 It's the idea that you have two conflicting opinions going 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:33.879 at it in your mind and how do you deal 0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:36.719 with those? And again, the Middle Ages don't think of 0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:39.239 it as a completely unenlightened time. It was an age 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:44.840 in which you had clever individuals, educated individuals trying to 0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:48.160 figure out how the world works. And while there wasn't 0:45:48.280 --> 0:45:51.120 really a huge population of atheists in Europe at the time, 0:45:51.719 --> 0:45:53.239 there was still a lot of doubt. There was a 0:45:53.239 --> 0:45:56.120 lot of trouble to believe, because ultimately, you're born into 0:45:56.120 --> 0:45:59.360 this story, this religious story of how the world works 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:01.440 and what it means and what your places in it, 0:46:01.760 --> 0:46:04.440 and there's not really an outside to that. There's it's 0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:07.520 not like today, like if if you're born into Christianity, 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:11.040 you grow older and you can say, well, I'm actually 0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:14.320 maybe not Catholic anymore, maybe I'm Protestant. Alright, fine, you 0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:16.480 can make that transition. You can say I don't really 0:46:16.480 --> 0:46:19.400 feel Protestant anymore. I feel like I want to explore 0:46:19.440 --> 0:46:24.160 Buddhism or Hinduism, or maybe I'm just completely agnostic. That's fine. 0:46:24.160 --> 0:46:27.359 They're groups for all of those, and in other words, 0:46:27.400 --> 0:46:29.040 there's like a meeting you can go to for each 0:46:29.080 --> 0:46:34.160 of those. It is support group. But within within Catholic 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:38.520 Europe of the time, there was Catholicism and there was 0:46:38.920 --> 0:46:42.719 the outside, which was damnation, so it was harder to 0:46:42.760 --> 0:46:45.959 wrap your head around. You couldn't just choose the path 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:48.080 that agreed with you the most, so a lot of 0:46:48.080 --> 0:46:52.200 people were struggling with belief. In fact, French historian Lucien 0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:55.680 Febre argued that the sixteenth century and the three or 0:46:55.719 --> 0:46:59.440 four preceding centuries were quote centuries that wanted to believe 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:02.319 and despite what we may think, and despite what they 0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:05.560 even wrote. There might have been a few pure blighted atheists, 0:47:05.600 --> 0:47:08.680 but there was no shortage of apathy, agnosticism, and doubt. 0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:12.720 So you talked about cognitive dissonance, and I'm thinking about 0:47:12.800 --> 0:47:15.400 how you're going to react in one of two ways 0:47:15.480 --> 0:47:17.680 if you're met with cognitive dissonance. So if you have 0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:19.960 one idea about the world and then something comes along 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:22.680 and it's the opposite of that, you're either going to 0:47:22.719 --> 0:47:25.680 have a sea change of opinion, or you're going to 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.879 somehow try to fit that into your worldview even though 0:47:29.920 --> 0:47:32.400 it doesn't really make sense. So I think about Thomas 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:37.040 Aquinas in terms of this, because he was very into Aristotle, 0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:39.880 and the reason why it was so important to a 0:47:40.040 --> 0:47:44.480 Klinus in the church is because Aristotle gave the kind 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:47.440 of order that the church needed, an order to to 0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:51.600 really formalize what they were trying to put forth to 0:47:51.640 --> 0:47:56.319 the public their doctrines. And so only that, but you know, 0:47:56.360 --> 0:47:59.680 there's a bit of appropriation of the esteem of Aristotle 0:47:59.800 --> 0:48:03.239 is Oh, so that's why you see this happenings, why 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:07.200 you see the convergent of these two different ideas and 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:10.600 the need to get some sort of order in place 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:13.920 so that you can formalize these ideas and make it 0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:17.759 seem authoritative. And one of the ideas, I mean, the 0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:22.800 the key idea that Walter Stevens pushes in Demon Lovers 0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:25.040 comes down to the idea that in the midst of 0:48:25.080 --> 0:48:28.040 this what is essentially a crisis of belief, you have 0:48:28.080 --> 0:48:29.799 an age where people are born into a religion that 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:32.960 they're finding that they're doubting. That doesn't completely jive yet 0:48:33.040 --> 0:48:35.560 with the world and it's not working the way it should. 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:39.200 But there's no outside, there's no legitimate way to establish 0:48:39.200 --> 0:48:40.880 a different version of how the world works. They have 0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:43.879 to make this one work. So what can you do? 0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:46.120 What can you do to prove to yourself that there 0:48:46.600 --> 0:48:49.680 is a supernatural that there that there are angels, and 0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:52.200 that there is a God, and ultimately that your own 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:56.200 soul is immortal and not something that dies with your body. 0:48:56.239 --> 0:48:59.640 So this version of Christianity needs witchcraft, right, and I 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:02.480 mean it's uh. And that that's the actual words of 0:49:02.560 --> 0:49:06.240 John Wesley, founder of Methodism. In seventy eight, he argued 0:49:06.280 --> 0:49:09.520 that quote giving up witchcraft is in effect the giving 0:49:09.560 --> 0:49:12.000 up of the Bible. Now that's how that's after the 0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:16.720 witchcraft craze finally huffs its last breath. Uh for that period. 0:49:16.960 --> 0:49:19.400 But certainly the argument Walter Stevens makes here is that 0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:23.560 essentially the theorist, the witchcraft theorists, the Hinrich Kramers of 0:49:23.560 --> 0:49:26.279 the time, they were kind of like not NASA scientist, 0:49:27.000 --> 0:49:31.280 forming these ideas of how the world beyond our planet works, 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:33.560 all right, And then the tortures you can think of 0:49:33.600 --> 0:49:35.719 them as the astronauts, the individuals that are sent out 0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:38.000 to gain that proof. And how are you going to 0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:40.719 gain proof? How can you possibly gain proof of the supernatural, 0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:43.920 something that is by its very nature invisible and as 0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:47.120 an article of faith. Well, you have these witches. And 0:49:47.160 --> 0:49:50.440 if you can somehow get a witch, especially lots and 0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:53.560 lots of witches, to testify, to confess that they have 0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:59.359 had physical sexual relations with a demon, with a supernatural being, 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:02.400 with a fall an angel, then she has an expert witness. 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:06.480 She's providing expert testimony to the existence of the supernatural, 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:08.560 to the existence of God, to the immortality of the 0:50:08.640 --> 0:50:12.920 human soul. And so, in a in a twisted, just horrible, 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:16.200 just heartbreaking way, you have a half a million women 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:22.160 die because a bunch of broken, renegade Christians doubt their 0:50:22.200 --> 0:50:26.800 own faith. Well, but also appeasing this idea of magical 0:50:26.880 --> 0:50:32.000 thinking right sating people's thirst for this idea that right 0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:35.880 can be wronged and that the unexplained can be explained 0:50:35.880 --> 0:50:37.959 in this very simple way. As she is a witch. 0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:41.120 Therefore my leaf stock died. At the same time, you're 0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:44.799 distracting from political problems, you're distracting from poverty, from a 0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:46.759 host of issues that should be on the mind of 0:50:46.800 --> 0:50:50.600 the average person, but instead their mind is occupied with witchcraft. Well, 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:53.279 and I think that what is truly evil about this 0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:55.880 is that these people, these clergymen, were staring in the 0:50:55.920 --> 0:51:00.400 faces of innocence as young as seven years old, seven 0:51:00.440 --> 0:51:03.120 years old, as young as seven year old, convicted of 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:07.239 having sexual activity with the demon and then executed for it. 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:10.400 And so again you get this idea of cognitive dissonance. 0:51:10.480 --> 0:51:12.080 What do you do when you are met with that 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:16.120 sort of innocence, You double down on your beliefs, and 0:51:16.840 --> 0:51:20.839 particularly if you again return to the line of Exodus, 0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:23.759 Thou shalt not permit a sorceress to live, and you 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:28.120 feel as though you are the representative of God on earth, 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:31.560 carrying out God's wishes. Yeah, we're shaking our heads. Yeah, 0:51:31.600 --> 0:51:34.040 I mean, it's it's horrible stuff. I mean, in Walter 0:51:34.080 --> 0:51:37.759 Stephen's book, he he makes a very thorough case for 0:51:37.880 --> 0:51:40.840 the importance of that physical relationship between the witch and 0:51:40.880 --> 0:51:44.879 the demon in virtually every witchcraft text that came out, 0:51:45.120 --> 0:51:49.439 including Malie's Malificarum, where it's it's it's not only making 0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:53.120 the argument that women are are having physical relations with demons, 0:51:53.160 --> 0:51:55.600 but it's having to create the idea that they could, 0:51:56.000 --> 0:51:58.879 because prior to four hundred it was also largely thought 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:01.279 that demons did not have physical bodies, so they were 0:52:01.280 --> 0:52:06.480 purely spirit. So they had to rewrite um metaphysics to 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:08.600 to to have that makes sense. They had to figure 0:52:08.600 --> 0:52:10.840 out what kind of body would a demon have? How 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:12.839 would it come to have a body? Would it be 0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:16.200 composed of air, would it be composed of some different 0:52:16.440 --> 0:52:19.719 form of flesh? How would this possibly happen? Because they 0:52:19.800 --> 0:52:22.640 needed it to happen so badly well, and cast doubt 0:52:22.680 --> 0:52:26.120 on women in every single enterprise of their life, should 0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:29.960 including midwiffery, in which then you know, of midwife, we 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:32.880 become suspect because it would think you would think that 0:52:32.920 --> 0:52:35.279 if she were delivering your baby should be offering up 0:52:35.280 --> 0:52:37.839 to the demon. You know. So there's a lot of 0:52:37.960 --> 0:52:41.000 different things that play um. But I think what we 0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:44.600 find ourselves with today is this legacies of angels and 0:52:44.719 --> 0:52:49.440 demons and this idea of women as which is um 0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:54.000 that that continues just to flavor the fabric of our society. Yeah, 0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:57.440 because I mean, certainly the misogyny still exists, the magical 0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:00.600 thinking still exists of in not only much of the world, 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:02.960 but in everyday life. There's a certain magic of magical thinking. 0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:06.880 I don't care how steeped in skepticism you are, you're 0:53:06.920 --> 0:53:08.640 gonna engage in a little bit of magical thinking. At 0:53:08.680 --> 0:53:11.080 least when you see somebody draw a smiley face on 0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:13.440 the wall, you're gonna see a human face there. I mean, 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:15.920 it's just on a very basic level, we think magically. 0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:18.880 But then, just as the post fourteen hundred world was 0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:23.239 an age of of religious doubt and change and technological innovation, 0:53:23.719 --> 0:53:26.200 I mean we continue to see that every every day 0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:28.120 in our modern lives. Every age has to have to 0:53:28.120 --> 0:53:31.480 have the same crisises that emerge of where we have 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:34.920 to doubt what we've been taught and and somehow come 0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:37.000 to terms with with what the world is showing us. 0:53:37.440 --> 0:53:40.120 And you see people that resisted that again double down 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:43.080 to that cognitive dissonance. So I mean, just think to 0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:45.279 your own self, Think to the politics you see on 0:53:45.280 --> 0:53:48.160 the TV every day, to what depths would would you fall? 0:53:48.520 --> 0:53:51.120 What hellish crimes would you commit in order to cling 0:53:51.360 --> 0:53:54.200 to a faith that deep down, or to a political 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:56.920 idea or what have you that you no longer really believe. 0:53:57.280 --> 0:54:00.920 What would you become in order to maintain that barrier 0:54:01.040 --> 0:54:04.719 between your worldview and the outside, you know, in order 0:54:04.760 --> 0:54:07.680 to defeat the steaming of cognitive distance. Yeah, and as 0:54:07.800 --> 0:54:11.480 Erica Jonging says that witchcraft is, it doesn't. It's not 0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:16.880 something that just went away. It just sort of re arises, uh, 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:20.040 from time period of time period under a different guys. Um. 0:54:20.440 --> 0:54:22.560 So I did want to point this out to that 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:26.160 if you're interested in in learning more about witchcraft, at 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:30.040 least in modern times, um, you can check out an 0:54:30.120 --> 0:54:33.960 HBO documentary Saving Africa's which is. It's a two thousand 0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:36.759 and ten documentary and and actually talked about the plight 0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:39.160 of young Nigerians branded as which is some as young 0:54:39.200 --> 0:54:41.560 as three months old, and some of some of these 0:54:41.600 --> 0:54:45.759 ideas that continue to pervade different cultures. Also, be sure 0:54:45.760 --> 0:54:48.200 to check out which is by Erica jong Um. It 0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:52.040 has some incredible illustrations. It is a wonderful history of 0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:55.600 which is and John also has some great poems in 0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:58.279 there as well. Um. The illustrations are wonderful as well. 0:54:58.320 --> 0:55:00.279 But the one in the cover, like Julie brought it 0:55:00.320 --> 0:55:03.000 to my desk, and that covers a little hippie dippie 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:06.040 looking because at first glance you only see this this 0:55:06.280 --> 0:55:09.600 very sort of flowers and goodness pagan which at the top, 0:55:09.640 --> 0:55:11.640 but then it becomes a more of a hag at 0:55:11.640 --> 0:55:13.640 the bottom. So when I first saw it, I'm like, oh, 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:17.320 this is some sort of this is not really necessarily 0:55:17.320 --> 0:55:18.600 gonna be in keeping with a lot of what we're 0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:20.600 talking about, but but it's it's really great. And then 0:55:20.760 --> 0:55:23.640 the illustrations inside the book, Uh, trust me, there are 0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:26.720 plenty of goat men and naked ladies prancing around for 0:55:26.719 --> 0:55:29.920 for any reader to find interesting. And the content is excellent. 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:32.839 And again, Walter Stephen's Demon Lover is a great book 0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:35.840 if you want to a deeper dive into that whole 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:40.320 discussion of the importance of physical contact between a witch 0:55:40.320 --> 0:55:42.680 and a demon. It's a great book, but it's also 0:55:42.760 --> 0:55:44.160 kind of a it's kind of a heavy read, so 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:47.120 I don't recommend that to everybody. But I would like 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:50.040 to close out with a quote from Walter Stevens in 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:52.880 the book, where he's he's looking forward from the medieval 0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:55.240 ages and looking to our own age and again talking 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:59.040 about the energy that that perpetrated and and propped up 0:55:59.360 --> 0:56:02.759 these atrocity and how that energy is still alive in society. Today, 0:56:02.840 --> 0:56:06.919 He says, the insecurities that produced experiments with witches are 0:56:06.960 --> 0:56:09.560 not a thing of the past. Both witchcraft theory and 0:56:09.560 --> 0:56:13.880 scholastic natural philosophy resemble the creation science of late twentieth 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:17.680 century Christian fundamentalist All three attempt to make knowledge of 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:21.680 the physical world conform to the most literal possible interpretation 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:24.960 of the Bible. This is always an exercise and damage controlled. 0:56:25.280 --> 0:56:27.680 How much of the Good Book can be salvaged when 0:56:27.719 --> 0:56:31.480 experience collides with tradition and authority. So there you have it. 0:56:31.600 --> 0:56:34.000 If you have anything you would like to share, if 0:56:34.040 --> 0:56:37.520 you have something something about which culture today, about how 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:40.080 we view the idea of a witch, I'm sure we 0:56:40.120 --> 0:56:42.719 have some wicked listeners out there. We would love to 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:44.920 hear from you. Guys and gals. Let us know what 0:56:45.080 --> 0:56:48.440 you think about the legacy of the witch in human society, 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:50.120 and if anyone has anything I would like to share 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:53.640 their thoughts on the history of which persecution and what 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:57.799 it meant the various things that made these atrocities happen. 0:56:57.880 --> 0:56:59.880 We'd love to hear from you. You can find us 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:02.200 on Facebook, and you can find us on tumbler or 0:57:02.239 --> 0:57:04.680 handle on both of those is stuff to blow your mind, 0:57:05.080 --> 0:57:07.920 and our Twitter name is blow the Mind and you 0:57:07.960 --> 0:57:10.160 can also drop us a line at blow the Mind 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:19.320 at discovery dot com. For more on this and thousands 0:57:19.320 --> 0:57:26.280 of other topics, Is It How Stuff Works dot com