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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm Julie Douglas.

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Speaker 1: We are recording this episode on Halloween on the thirty

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Speaker 1: one of October, which is kind of fitting because we

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Speaker 1: are talking about witches, uh, and we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: persecution of which is and the hammer of which is

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Speaker 1: the malius mellificarum. We'll get into all that in a minute,

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Speaker 1: but really the starting point here is, of course, the

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Speaker 1: idea of the which the modern idea of the witch

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Speaker 1: that emerges from past lies, truths, atrocities, all of which

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Speaker 1: we're going to discuss in this episode. For your part, Julie,

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Speaker 1: what what do you think of when you hear the

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Speaker 1: word which, Well, I always think about the archetype, right,

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Speaker 1: I think about a witch on a broom. I think

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Speaker 1: about all the children's stories which are rife with witches,

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Speaker 1: from Snow White to the Wizard of Oz, right, which

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Speaker 1: is are so ingrained in our culture, and so on

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Speaker 1: a personal level, I think as a female, it's always

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Speaker 1: been of interest to me because I think it's some

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Speaker 1: sort of subconscious level when you are a female. You

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Speaker 1: know that this is an archetype and that you know,

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Speaker 1: society has been saying for a long time, you know,

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Speaker 1: women have the sort of evil side to them, and

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Speaker 1: that's really where the roots of this idea of which

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Speaker 1: is comes from. Which we'll discuss and will unpack this

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Speaker 1: idea a little bit more later, but backing up and

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Speaker 1: sort of looking at this topic, I think it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: in the context of the last four hundred, six hundred

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Speaker 1: years of history to try to get a bead on

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Speaker 1: psychologically where we're coming from. Um, no matter what topic

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Speaker 1: it is that we're covering, there's always going to be

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Speaker 1: a bit of flavoring from this idea, of of which

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Speaker 1: is whether or not we know it just sounds like

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Speaker 1: a ridiculous statements to say, but kind of looking you

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Speaker 1: to your own life and look at how stories or

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Speaker 1: even news stories or fiction is created, and then look

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Speaker 1: back to these tales of witches and you will see

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Speaker 1: some of some of the roots or the blueprint of

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Speaker 1: how we go about our lives. Like from a modern standpoint,

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Speaker 1: which the gender issues involved in the idea of the

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Speaker 1: witch are fascinating. Think of Hollywood, for instance, countless beautiful

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Speaker 1: younger actresses, they have all the starring female roles. Then

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Speaker 1: they get a little older, what do they inevitably play?

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Speaker 1: They end up playing witches. I mean, it's almost a

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Speaker 1: joke at this point. In fact, I've heard maybe it

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Speaker 1: was Glenn Close, I want to say, who was joking

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Speaker 1: about reaching the age where she suddenly was receiving a

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Speaker 1: lot of roles for witches. Yeah, you know which, Like,

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Speaker 1: what does that say about us? And certainly the witch

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Speaker 1: is an important character in fiction. I always think to

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Speaker 1: the witches in Macbeth is just one of the classic

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Speaker 1: examples of of eagle witchery in modern fiction and in

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Speaker 1: our modern understanding of what a witch is. That's obviously

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Speaker 1: that's a huge archetype to fall back on. But where

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Speaker 1: do these archetypes arise from? That's what we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about in this episode. And one thing we need to

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Speaker 1: get out and get clear right off the bat is

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Speaker 1: the difference between which and wiccan and uh. For me,

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Speaker 1: I mean I tend to I didn't think about this

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Speaker 1: all that much because I tend to think of them

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Speaker 1: in two distinct categories like wickens. To me, those are

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Speaker 1: people I know, I know wickens in real life I

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Speaker 1: see them, you know, these are people who have a

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Speaker 1: particular religious, um spiritual belief system and more power to them.

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Speaker 1: And then in the other category, I tend to lump

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Speaker 1: the witches from mcbethum historical witches and everything else. Well.

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Speaker 1: And it's so we have weakens in one pocket, and

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Speaker 1: we're talking more about in nature based system right um.

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Speaker 1: And then we have witchcraft, which is entirely different witchcraft

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Speaker 1: we're going to discuss um more in terms of religion

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Speaker 1: and how it was actually something that was created uh

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Speaker 1: and not something necessarily practiced by people throughout the ages.

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Speaker 1: That witchcraft is this largely um fictionalized account all boils

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Speaker 1: to the surface around fourteen hundred as well discussed now

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Speaker 1: before that. You obviously have stories of monsters, hags in

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Speaker 1: female female monsters that prey upon on children and cause mayhem.

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Speaker 1: Those are as old as his human history, and they

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Speaker 1: exist in every society on Earth. Every culture has a

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Speaker 1: sort of which and in likewise cultures around the world

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Speaker 1: have There are always there's always gonna be a history

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Speaker 1: of females who are in important roles that may or

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Speaker 1: may not have some sort of attributed uh, spiritual or

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Speaker 1: or healing powers about them. That's also as old as time.

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Speaker 1: But fourteen hundred that's when we see the emergence, the

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Speaker 1: real emergen gents of the idea of the evil witch,

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Speaker 1: the demonic witch. And out of that time bubbles all

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Speaker 1: of this horrible witchcraft persecution, right because at that point

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Speaker 1: we are people went from looking at which is as

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Speaker 1: a psychological embodiment of evil and wrongdoing and try to

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Speaker 1: then say that humans could actually physically embody this idea

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Speaker 1: of evil. Okay, so that gives license to do a

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Speaker 1: lot of horrible things. And when we talk about horrible things,

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Speaker 1: what we are talking about are people who were killed

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Speaker 1: and tortured. And from the fourteen hundreds to the seventeen

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Speaker 1: hundreds and estimated half million people were executed for witchcraft,

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Speaker 1: were accused and executed, mostly women. Them are women, some

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Speaker 1: men and then also children as youngest like seven or

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Speaker 1: eight were tried and executed on crimes as hard and

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Speaker 1: unbelievable as the sexual relations with a demon. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to go and try to do is get to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the reason why this happened. Um, try

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Speaker 1: to take this long view and look back in history

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Speaker 1: and figure out all the different elements that led up

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Speaker 1: to this. But I did want to mention that it's

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Speaker 1: not just in past history. We'll talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about that later on. Exorcism still take place around

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Speaker 1: the world, and the magical thinking involved in all of this.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna look at a lot of the different sources

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Speaker 1: of this witchcraft persecution, and so many of those sources,

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Speaker 1: be they cultural or economic, they're still around today. To

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Speaker 1: think about that as we move forward. It is absolutely

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Speaker 1: relevant to today. And I just wanted to read a

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Speaker 1: quick quote from Erica Johng in her book, which is

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Speaker 1: she says, clearly, there are pagan beliefs still present in

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Speaker 1: our modern world, and none of them inspires in us

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Speaker 1: a lust for torturing and incinerating our neighbors here in

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Speaker 1: the West. That's what she's talking about. But lest we

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Speaker 1: make the mistake of assuming that our ancestors were less

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Speaker 1: intelligent than we, a concept known as doom height or

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Speaker 1: primeval stupidity, let us think of all the things we

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Speaker 1: would kill our neighbors for. That which is not dead,

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Speaker 1: she is merely hibernating, and which hunting itself, is hardly dead.

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Speaker 1: It is merely waiting to be born again under a

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Speaker 1: different name exactly. So let's go back to fourteen hundred again.

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Speaker 1: This is a key point in history where suddenly we

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Speaker 1: see this idea of the witch rising to the surface

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Speaker 1: of thought in Western Europe. It's interesting if you look

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Speaker 1: back before Dred you had plenty of stories of individuals

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Speaker 1: seeking advice from the devil or his demons, engaging in

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Speaker 1: various magical spells and and and seeking demonic aid. But

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Speaker 1: they were called necromancers. They were They were men. They

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Speaker 1: were generally learned men, members of the clergy, or for

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Speaker 1: all intents and purposes, scientists or wizards if you will.

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Speaker 1: They were. They were the kind of people who owned

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Speaker 1: a library, had access to quote unquote secret knowledge, and

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Speaker 1: could could really dive into the sort of occultist nonsense,

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Speaker 1: hardcore and it was it was generally considered that this

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Speaker 1: was not something that women were up for. This was again,

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Speaker 1: this was something that learned, powerful men did, not some

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Speaker 1: crazy woman down the street with too many cats. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was a very sexist idea because you know,

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Speaker 1: every all things equal, why shouldn't women be able to

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Speaker 1: reach out to the devil for aid? Right prior to

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Speaker 1: fourteen hundred when it came to seeking the advice of

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Speaker 1: demons and entering packs. It was a man's world for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and necromancer would have been one of a triumvirant

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Speaker 1: of dark arts here. So you'd have white magic, dark magic,

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Speaker 1: and then you would have necromancy. Yeah. White magic would

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Speaker 1: be a stuff like you go to your local healer

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Speaker 1: and and he or she would have some sort of

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Speaker 1: shamanist expels. So it would be a mixture of things

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Speaker 1: that were you know, some of it were probably actual

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Speaker 1: folk remedies that worked, and some things that were purely

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Speaker 1: superstitious and magical thinking. Likewise, the dark magic would be

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Speaker 1: your area of putting hexes on things or curses. Um. Again,

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Speaker 1: magical thinking uh and too, maybe into a limited extent,

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Speaker 1: maybe actual folk uh, anti remedies if you will, um.

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Speaker 1: But but for the most part, magical thinking in that

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Speaker 1: department as well, aimed at harming people. And then you

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Speaker 1: had necromancy, which was reaching out into the void, trying

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Speaker 1: to contact the realms beyond death, trying to contact spirits

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Speaker 1: and demons and uh and and really it brings my

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Speaker 1: mind back to our previous episode on Luigi Boards and

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Speaker 1: Bloody Mary in these various semi occult parlor tricks that

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Speaker 1: we played at our various sweepovers when we were kids,

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Speaker 1: Like those were all things that you would do with

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Speaker 1: this kind of butterfly in your stomach nervousness, because we

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Speaker 1: were reaching out to see if there was something out there,

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Speaker 1: to see if you could touch this supernatural idea that

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Speaker 1: we create in the world. And uh and necromancy was

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Speaker 1: was basically that, and on some levels a very learned

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Speaker 1: example of that, where you would have books and books

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Speaker 1: about how to reach out and touch something that exists

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Speaker 1: only in your mind. So to your point, this was

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Speaker 1: male territory. And so you would have scholars, you would

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Speaker 1: have clergy who would look to this and say, there's

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Speaker 1: no way that a woman could be a witch as

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Speaker 1: we know, as we have come to term a witch.

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Speaker 1: There's no way that she could be or have this

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Speaker 1: sort of relationship with the devil and and um, you know,

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Speaker 1: fly on broomsticks during the night. It's impossible. So they

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Speaker 1: were actually that that was really sort of their position

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Speaker 1: on women couldn't assume this this type of power. And

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Speaker 1: in the churches, um and certainly you would have stories

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Speaker 1: of people doing magical things and because because again magical

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Speaker 1: thinking is as oldest human history. Likewise, paranormal experience is

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Speaker 1: a biological reality. As we've discussed when we've talked about

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Speaker 1: UFO abductions and whatnot in the past, those experiences, no

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Speaker 1: matter how we color them with with our cultural pigments,

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Speaker 1: um things such as sleep paralysis are real and occur,

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Speaker 1: and then our interpretation of them that may involve anything

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Speaker 1: from uh an extraterrestrial to a wood nomp. Likewise, individuals

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Speaker 1: of varying degrees of psychosis are going to have experiences

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Speaker 1: that do not match up with everyone else's real world experiences.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the list goes on and on. But if

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Speaker 1: you came to the clergy prior to fourteen hundred and

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Speaker 1: you said, hey, lady down the road, she's flying around

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Speaker 1: at night and summon in goblins, they the official church

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Speaker 1: stance was that is nonsense, that does not fly with

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Speaker 1: church doctrine. Cut that stuff out. Yeah, And actually there

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Speaker 1: were some laws that were saying, hey, there are no

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Speaker 1: witches first of all, the second of all, do not

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Speaker 1: persecute or kill witches. Okay, so this was generally the

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Speaker 1: accepted idea. Yeah, but then that begins to change and

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Speaker 1: That's what's so fascinating about this because around fourteen hundred,

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Speaker 1: not only does the idea of the witch the demon

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Speaker 1: summoning which arise in Europe, but it is pushed for,

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Speaker 1: it is campaigned for, it is the literature is published

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Speaker 1: and distributed into the world. Making the case and having

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Speaker 1: that the point is having to make the strong case

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Speaker 1: because prior to four hundred, it was not a generally

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Speaker 1: accepted idea that women could women could do this, We're

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Speaker 1: doing this. It was a reality that had to be

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Speaker 1: created by men. Well. Also, you have different religious I

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Speaker 1: guess you could say sex of um of Christianity who

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Speaker 1: are really trying to be the completely religious monopoly out there.

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Speaker 1: And so we have talked I actually talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's pretty well known that a lot

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Speaker 1: of pagan sites where their rituals occurred, you know, churches

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Speaker 1: were built there. Um, there's a lot of appropriation of Pagans.

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Speaker 1: You'll see that in saints and in Catholicism. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: see if saints, old heroes become saints, old gods are

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in demonology and become demons. Uh, the opposite

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Speaker 1: been of the various angels before four. This was for

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Speaker 1: a few hundred years as a craze of angelology and demonology,

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Speaker 1: where you were just sort of populating the ranks of

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Speaker 1: imagined havens and hells with different demons and angels. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean the problem here is that, um, not only

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Speaker 1: are you trying to have a monopoly on religion here

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Speaker 1: through Christianity, but um, you have you have this imaginary,

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Speaker 1: wicked religion that is basically created by some people in

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Speaker 1: Christianity to try to further define this this evil and

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Speaker 1: work against it, um, and and feel as though these

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Speaker 1: persecutions are justified by lines like an exodus, this is

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Speaker 1: thou shalt not permit sorceress to live. So there seems

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Speaker 1: to be these justifications coming online. And in addition to that,

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Speaker 1: if you look at previous to the fifteenth century, you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of grappling with what is Christianity. And

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Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that later about trying to define

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Speaker 1: it and order it and take all the different interpretations

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Speaker 1: and all of the different writings and come up with

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Speaker 1: some sort of cohesive like let's all fall in line

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Speaker 1: behind this idea. Yeah, and let's not add to it

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Speaker 1: too much with a bunch of angels and demons, because

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Speaker 1: that's that's an example there where the Church had to

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Speaker 1: finally say, whoa guys, let's stop making up angels and demons.

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Speaker 1: We have enough, We probably have too many. And certainly

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Speaker 1: you also see the history of heresy in the adxistence

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Speaker 1: of the Spanish Inquisition, um in in the Catholic Church

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Speaker 1: that was there too sort of edit the text to

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Speaker 1: keep people from adding too much to it, from deviating

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Speaker 1: what was perceived to be the core message of Christianity.

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Speaker 1: So so if you were off message, then you were

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Speaker 1: committing heresy right that you were ringed in For instance,

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Speaker 1: the Dalcinians, they were a heresy that believed not only

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Speaker 1: the poverty of Christ, but that everyone should be poor,

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Speaker 1: that the Church should be poor, and that the rich

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Speaker 1: should be violently opposed, sort of a much bloodier version,

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Speaker 1: say of occupy Wall Street. I guess you could say,

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Speaker 1: with a certain harsh medieval flare, but that is an

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Speaker 1: idea that sprang up and it had to be, in

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Speaker 1: the Church's eyes, squelched. But the heresies are all things

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Speaker 1: where for the most part the heresies were real. It

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Speaker 1: was somebody with an opinion or a view of Christianity

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Speaker 1: that that deviated from what was seen as the core path.

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Speaker 1: You might add some lies on top of that to

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Speaker 1: press the case to actually eliminate them, but for the

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Speaker 1: most part, they were going after actual beliefs, right, So

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Speaker 1: I mean this is I mean, if you look at

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Speaker 1: the Inquisition and different aspects of the campaign you're talking

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Speaker 1: about from eleven to sixteen hundred, and because of religious

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Speaker 1: or political beliefs, people are are being questioned and they're

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Speaker 1: off message, right, they're trying to rein them in. But

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Speaker 1: but where we really differentiate with witchcraft is again that

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Speaker 1: this is stuff that was almost entirely made up. There

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Speaker 1: were no actual witches, not like the ones that that

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Speaker 1: the charges and the trials claimed existed. Okay, So so

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Speaker 1: in order to try to get a bead on how

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Speaker 1: this sort of get this idea of which is sorted

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Speaker 1: to get into the fabric of religion and also education,

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Speaker 1: you have to understand that colleges and universities were largely

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Speaker 1: under the thumb of religion until you know fairly recently. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you are a degree candidate in theology at the

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Speaker 1: University of Paris in the fourteen hundreds, you would be

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Speaker 1: expected to demonstrate your knowledge of demonology and angelology by

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Speaker 1: commenting publicly on the Four Books of Sentences. Now, this

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Speaker 1: was a standard university textbook used throughout the Middle Ages

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Speaker 1: and into the early Modern period. So already you would

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Speaker 1: have been steeped in this mythology of demons and angels. Now,

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Speaker 1: not only that you are now training, essentially um an

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Speaker 1: army of clergyman to then go out into villages, into

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Speaker 1: society's all over Western Europe and to spread this word

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Speaker 1: about demons and angels. So you know, some people say, well,

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Speaker 1: how could you know between the years of four and

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Speaker 1: fourteen eighty there have been such a seed change in

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Speaker 1: this idea of which is and there was h there

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Speaker 1: was something that I read and I can't remember. I apologize,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember who it was who made this point.

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Speaker 1: But he said, well, if you look at the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 1: and you look at the civil rights movement, and you

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Speaker 1: look at the sea change between nineteen sixties in present day,

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Speaker 1: and you consider all the modes of communication we have

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Speaker 1: that affected this change, Um, it's it's not inconceivable to say, like,

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Speaker 1: look back at fourteen hundred and realized that this was

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Speaker 1: all bubbling up, all of this sort of doctrine about

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Speaker 1: which is and evil and demons and angels um. So

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Speaker 1: that when something like this publication of Malius Maleficarium get

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Speaker 1: arrives on the scene in fourteen eighties six, that it's

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Speaker 1: really running with the idea of demons and which is

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Speaker 1: in creating a blueprint really for um, particularly Catholicism, to

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Speaker 1: follow through on what they think is essential to man's nature,

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Speaker 1: in particular when them, Yeah, Mallius malificarum is is a

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Speaker 1: key text when you when you look at the history

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Speaker 1: of witchcraft, persecution and just the idea of the witchcraft.

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Speaker 1: This was published again the work of Heinrich Kramer, Hammer

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Speaker 1: of the Witches, and it is a guide book to

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Speaker 1: identifying which is, knowing what they're up to and then

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Speaker 1: persecuting them or well, I guess prosecuting them and executing

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Speaker 1: them if you want to use the of the book,

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Speaker 1: because the book is making the the argument that all

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Speaker 1: of this is real and pressing it really hard. Is

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Speaker 1: a book that we used in part on this episode

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Speaker 1: called Demon Lovers by Walter Stevens, and he's primarily concerned

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Speaker 1: with the accusation that existed in all of these trials

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Speaker 1: that witches were engaged in physical sexual activity with demons.

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Speaker 1: That's his his The whole book is an exploration of that.

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Speaker 1: But he also does a great job of just really

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Speaker 1: diving into two witchcraft in general. But there's a whole

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Speaker 1: section where he just takes apart Malius malificarum and and

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Speaker 1: analyzes what Heinrich Kramer is doing in each part, Like

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Speaker 1: what is he thinking is he's writing this and he's

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Speaker 1: having to make really strong cases to again press the

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Speaker 1: idea that there are female which is out there, that

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Speaker 1: there are women out there in the world that are

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Speaker 1: actively engaging not only impacts and spell work with the

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Speaker 1: devil and his demons, but in actual physical sexual contact

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Speaker 1: with demons. Right and knowing that that they can shape

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Speaker 1: shift into animals, they can ride the brooms through the air,

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Speaker 1: the broomsticks, um, they can cause um spontaneous abortions, um,

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Speaker 1: just by that the exterior touch that they affect the weather,

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Speaker 1: they can create hill storms. Yeah, I mean he's not

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Speaker 1: he's not preaching to the converted here. This is not

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Speaker 1: a book where it came out and was like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I picked up him on Hendrick's book because this is

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Speaker 1: everything I believe in already they would already have bought

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Speaker 1: into some of it, certainly, But again the demonology and

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Speaker 1: anginal angeology craze and post fourteen D the witchcraft thing

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Speaker 1: was already gaining steam. But this comes, and this just

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Speaker 1: pushes it even even further. It was the authoritative text Um.

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Speaker 1: Let me read a bit from it, Um, And of

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Speaker 1: course it came out in Latin, by the way, and

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Speaker 1: within thirty five years there were twenty different editions, so

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Speaker 1: it was a very popular book among the learned. This

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Speaker 1: is a bit from it. It says, which is offered

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Speaker 1: to devils or otherwise kill the children that they do

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Speaker 1: not otherwise devour, They cause abortion, kill infants in the

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Speaker 1: mother's womb by a mere exterior touch. Um also said

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Speaker 1: that midwives offered newborns to the devil at birth, and

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Speaker 1: that a woman knows no moderation and goodness or advice.

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Speaker 1: Devils do these things through the medium of women. So

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Speaker 1: again a lot of effort is being made by men

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Speaker 1: like Heinrich Kramer into making this argument, this very strong argument,

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Speaker 1: that women are engaging in witchcraft and engaging in physical

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Speaker 1: contact with demons. Why that's the that's the big question,

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Speaker 1: right as we look back through the ages, why does

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Speaker 1: this suddenly be I'm such a pressing issue. Why are

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Speaker 1: men wasting their lives and committing and when ultimately either

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Speaker 1: committing or inspiring a horrible atrocities in the name of

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Speaker 1: this ridiculous idea. And this is an important thing to mention. Two,

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Speaker 1: When we look back on witchcraft persecution, we have a

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Speaker 1: habit to think, oh, that was the Middle Ages. People

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Speaker 1: were stupid, people were crazy religious, and it was just

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Speaker 1: a violent or horrible time. So yeah, of course, horrible,

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Speaker 1: violent stuff like this is gonna happen. But the more

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Speaker 1: you look at when you look at what people were

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Speaker 1: writing in in these days and before and after, and

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Speaker 1: when when you start really analyzing the culture, you see

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Speaker 1: this wasn't really the case. I mean, it was a

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Speaker 1: different world, uh for sure, but it was it was

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Speaker 1: still an age in which you had reasoned men and women.

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Speaker 1: When you when you had educated men who were not

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Speaker 1: only exposed to a bunch of theological garbage about angels

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Speaker 1: and demons, they were also engaging in older philosophical text

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Speaker 1: They were familiar with the works of Aristotle. They were

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Speaker 1: in touch with individuals who were trying to understand how

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Speaker 1: the observable world works, and not only what was happening

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Speaker 1: happening in some unobservable spirit world. So bear that in

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Speaker 1: mind as we move forward. So, why was this happening?

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Speaker 1: It wasn't. It's not. So it's not just a case

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Speaker 1: of men deciding, Hey, I bet which is exists. Let's

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Speaker 1: make a case for it. What other energy is involved

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Speaker 1: in this pursuit? Well, again, I think part of it

394
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Speaker 1: is Christianity trying to assert itself in fallen line under

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Speaker 1: one doctrine. And so throughout history you had different um

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Speaker 1: takes on women and their their part in society. But

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Speaker 1: here is the dark view of women. Here's this idea

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Speaker 1: that women are weak and therefore they are subject to

399
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Speaker 1: being vessels of of demons. Um. You also have this

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Speaker 1: idea of women during this time coming into play, this

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Speaker 1: idea that women aren't necessarily companions to say, like their

402
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Speaker 1: their husbands, their counterparts. Um, there are more just you know,

403
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Speaker 1: part of what your wealth is, your accumulation of wealth.

404
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Speaker 1: And so if you if you begin to objectify this

405
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Speaker 1: person and and sort of say, okay, there's some distance

406
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Speaker 1: between me and this other person and not look at

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Speaker 1: them just as another human, then if you can see

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Speaker 1: how the Church sort of runs with this idea of well,

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Speaker 1: let's have the female as this embodiment of evil and

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Speaker 1: not just like you know this, hey, let's this is

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Speaker 1: our game plan for this century. But um, but you

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Speaker 1: know you have clergy clergyman who have been steeped again

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Speaker 1: in this sort of mythology, this mysticism, because think about

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Speaker 1: this is particularly in Catholicism. This is a religion that

415
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Speaker 1: that really relies on mysticism. Okay, this idea, um, that

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Speaker 1: there's all these unseen forces. Um. And if a woman

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Speaker 1: can embody that she can be the lightning rod, then

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Speaker 1: not only can she be sort of the scapegoat for

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Speaker 1: for everything, um, she can really play to this idea

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Speaker 1: of magical thinking which is already going on. Um if

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Speaker 1: you look at, say, for lack of a better word,

422
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Speaker 1: during this time, the lower classes merchants, peasants who are

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Speaker 1: really attached to magical thinking and panganism. So if the

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Speaker 1: Church can take this and run with it, then they

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Speaker 1: can exercise some sort of control over society. And then

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Speaker 1: there's also the idea that so the Christian world, the

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Speaker 1: medieval world, and to a lart extent, the modern world,

428
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Speaker 1: is highly matriarchal, but especially in this stage, you have

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Speaker 1: men at the top of it. You have a religion

430
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: and governments that are filled with men, and you have

431
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: a religion that has a male god. So the idea

432
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: is that if you go back far enough in history,

433
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: in fact, if you if you actually transition out of

434
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,719
Speaker 1: recorded history, you find that the old religions are not

435
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: strictly male religions. They're not completely occupied by masculine gods

436
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: that are that are occupied with with with ideas of violence. Right,

437
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: And I know I want to go deeply into this,

438
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: but when you say the old religion, there are some

439
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: accounts of actually Jesus having um. I guess you could

440
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: say very different things to say than what is documented,

441
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: and that his relationship with Mary Magdalen was very different,

442
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 1: and that there was more of a sort of equals

443
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: um in play there in terms of their their relationship.

444
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And then you also have traditions, especially in

445
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: medieval art, where you see increasingly feminine portrayals of Jesus Christ.

446
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: The idea and the idea of being there that people

447
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: were connecting more with a feminine godhead than they were

448
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: with this uh, this Old Testament bearded man who liked

449
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: to destroy cities, and that was something that again when

450
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: the Church was rooting out heresy and trying to to

451
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: edit down what they actually were, this is one of

452
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: the things that they went after and said, guys, let's

453
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: let's chill with the female Jesus Is because you're you're

454
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: bordering on heresy here. The basic idea here is that

455
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: in our past we had more of a matriarchal view

456
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: of the universe and of nature and of the gods

457
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: that ruled over nature, and then over time that is

458
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: replaced with the patriarchal Godhead, and throughout history then the

459
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: patriarchal side has to continually reinforce the wall, to reinforce

460
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: the barriers and keep the matriarchal view from from working

461
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: its way back into into our thinking. And who is

462
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: the one human in Catholicism, uh, who would be closest

463
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: to God? Well, that would be the Son of God

464
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: right well? Or living Oh, that would be the Pope

465
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: right So in four four you have a papal proclamation

466
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 1: by Pope Innocent the eight who essentially says, all right,

467
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: let's let's go after which is and then this results

468
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: in this continent wide genocide of people. Yeah, so misogyny

469
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: is a is a definite theory and and certainly there's

470
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: no denying misogyny plays a role in witchcraft persecution because

471
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: it's mostly men convicting mostly women on entirely trumped up

472
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: charges of supernatural activity. Uh and uh. And people like

473
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: Heinrich Kramer again are making a case in their books

474
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: for the inherent evil of women. So I mean, it's

475
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: it's a no brainer, and it's it's horrible, but but

476
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: it's it's undeniable that misogyny plays a huge role in

477
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: all of this. So again, that's sort of where you

478
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: see the sea change coming into play, where between fourteen

479
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: hundred and fourteen eight four six and Mallius Mala Krum

480
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: comes on the scene, you see in Earnest Christianity sort

481
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: of going after this idea of witchcraft and really developing

482
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: the idea of witchcraft and adding to the mythology of it.

483
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, learned men are developing it, they're publishing it,

484
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: books like like the Malleus mall of Acram are making

485
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: its way out there spreading the idea, and it's it's

486
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: trickling down then to the lay people. The normal people

487
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: out there in their villages and uh, and this is

488
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: important to note too, because it's not misogyny is one

489
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: of the the the powers in play here. But then

490
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: also on a local level, you're gonna have people engaging

491
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: in the same old craft that people always engage in,

492
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: petty disputes, spite, mistrust of outsiders, mistrust of the crazy

493
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 1: lady with all the cats, that kind of thing. So

494
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: when the the environment for witchcraft persecution takes hold, um,

495
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: you're gonna see some petty disputes that are going to

496
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: be taken care of on a local level via the

497
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: witchcraft trial system. You're gonna see you can see people

498
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: on the local level by into it, by into the

499
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: paranoia that the church and learned the members of society

500
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: are passing down. So it begins to distill through society.

501
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: So rather than looking at say some livestock that I

502
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: lost in you know, say four um as a product

503
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: of let's say a parasite, I might look to my

504
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: neighbor and say, ah, they put a spell on me. Yeah, accursed.

505
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: We love to blame somebody for for something that happens,

506
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: you know, be it if something bad happens to our animal,

507
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: better that we can point a finger at somebody or

508
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: something and if that somebody and something happens to be

509
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: that strange guy who lives on the edge of town

510
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: or that weird looking woman and the devil, so be

511
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: it right. And likewise, children are dying. All sorts of

512
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: horrible things are happening because there's death and childbirth. It's

513
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. Life is tough, just as life is

514
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: tough today, and people are gonna seek excuses, they're gonna

515
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: see answers, and if they can find somebody to blame

516
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: for something like this, all the better, right, Yeah, absolutely,

517
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: And so what you're starting to see is is a

518
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 1: bit of a flavor of the social contract. At that time.

519
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: We've talked about the social contract and various podcasts about

520
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: how we all have signed onto it, whether or not

521
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: we know it. So what we're seeing here is this

522
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: script really for what's happening in life, and the script

523
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: is being provided, uh, usually by the local clergy m.

524
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: So we're gonna take a quick break, but when we

525
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: get back, we're going to talk about the script and

526
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: how it is used in confessions in torture. All right,

527
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: we're back. So we've we've discussed what was happening post

528
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: fourteen hundred, Essentially this war on women begins. I mean

529
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: that term is thrown around today, and I'm not saying

530
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: it's completely pointless to throw that term around today, But

531
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: in the post four world this there's a lot of

532
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: truth to the idea. Well. And that's not to say

533
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: that this happening in the subteen hundreds doesn't somehow inform

534
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: our idea of what the war on women today is like.

535
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: It certainly does. But an important part of this, of course,

536
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: is that ultimately, if you're you can accuse people witchcraft

537
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: all day, but ultimately you're you're gonna need them to confess,

538
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: they have at least enough civility that they need them

539
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: to confess. You need And it comes down to, if

540
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna make this horrible case and you're ultimately going

541
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: to do something horrible, you need need the victim of

542
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: this to buy in, or at least seem to buy

543
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: into the idea. You need some sort of acknowledgement that

544
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: what you're doing is real. Yeah, there are no Miranda

545
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: rights here and now due process, no guilty or innocent

546
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: until proven otherwise. Um, you essentially have you know, if

547
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: you think about This is called the witch craze. And

548
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: if you have fingered someone and said that you are

549
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: a witch, then you certainly have an audience that is

550
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 1: waiting for you to prove that right. So you have

551
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: witch theorist. You have people like Heinrich Kramer who are

552
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: coming up with all of the ideas of what should

553
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: be happening and essentially what a witch a convicted which

554
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 1: should be telling her interrogator. And then you have an

555
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: interrogator whose job it is to go talk to the

556
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: witch and get this story out of her. Now, I

557
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: believe you have some of the questions to which would

558
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: be asked, and we're going to run through those, or

559
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: at least some of them real quick, just give you

560
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: a taste of what kind of charges were being leveled

561
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: and what kind of answers were being sought. And these

562
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: are eighteen questions. I'm not gonna go through all of them, obviously,

563
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: but um and I think try to take the position

564
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: of the person who is accused of being a witch

565
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: and having these questions applied to you over and over again,

566
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: and which you began to see is that you're being

567
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: told in the script right. And I remember again, there

568
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: are no witches. Nobody is doing the things that this

569
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: this question like put the fiction out of your mind,

570
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: all right, So how long have you been a witch?

571
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: Why did you become a witch? Why did you become

572
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 1: a witch? And what happened on the occasion? What demon

573
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: did you choose to be your lover? What was his name?

574
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: What was the name of your master among the evil demons?

575
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: What was the oath you were forced to render him?

576
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: How it starts to get a little bit more involved

577
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: in more more colored here, Um, how did you make

578
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: this oath? And what were its conditions? Where did you

579
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: consummate your union with your incubus? Because it goes on

580
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: and on to say, uh, what is the ointments with

581
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: which you rub your broomstick made of? How are you

582
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: able to fly through the air? That do all the questions,

583
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: but it talks about the cyber than quet every little

584
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: detail of what the church thinks is going on with

585
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: which craft because the ultimate story here is that the

586
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: woman is engaging in sexual relations with a demon. Oftentimes

587
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: this will initially start with oh, there, I saw this

588
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: handsome fella, and then we started fooling around fella. Yeah,

589
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: because that's a that's another important and then if it's

590
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: a man being accused, it's a woman. But but it's

591
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: never a male demon and a male um human engaging

592
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: in sexual activity, because the writers of this is like

593
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: the idea of of homosexual relations between even a demon

594
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: and a human was was just too much for them

595
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: at the time, And that's a whole separate issue. But

596
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: the case again would be all right, you you saw

597
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: somebody attractive, you started messing around with them, and inevitably

598
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: you end up noticing something unnatural about them. Generally they

599
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: would have like the feet of a goose. That was

600
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: actually in a number of accounts. And the argument here

601
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: is that, well, God would never completely one over allowed

602
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: the demons to pull one over you completely. You'd have

603
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: to have some sort of sign so that the faithful

604
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: could back out of it. And then only your sinful

605
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: nature would allow you to keep going with this. Right,

606
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: so you engage in sexual relations with this demon. You

607
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: eventually end up traveling via the air or some sort

608
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: of unnatural steed to go to this sabbath where all

609
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: the other witches and their demons would gather, and maybe

610
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: the Horned One himself would appear before you. But never

611
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: would you be engaging in actual relationships with the devil.

612
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: Because even though we're we're we're giving a lot of

613
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: power to women with these charges of witchcraft, you don't

614
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: want to give them too much power. Again, the misogyny

615
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 1: still has to be in play, and you don't want

616
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: to imply that, yes, this, uh, this woman on the

617
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: edge of town is important enough to actually um mess

618
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: around with the Prince of Darkness himself. So it's not

619
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: really her power. It's the Prince of darkness, right right,

620
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: It's never her power, because heaven forbid, we'd give her

621
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: too much power. Likewise, a lot of the things she's

622
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: a tribute with, for instance, making men's penises disappear, which

623
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: was a big charge along with impotence and various other

624
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: things of that nature. With the disappearance of the penis,

625
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 1: it would be a charge of illusion. They're not actually

626
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: powerful enough to manipulate physical reality in this instance, but

627
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: they can create the illusion of it happening. So you're

628
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 1: giving them tremendous attributing with them tremendous power, but it's

629
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: not their power and there are limits on it, and

630
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 1: you can't blame God too much for this happening. So okay,

631
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: you have the the script, you have the idea of

632
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: what witchcraft is. No doubt that has been bandied about

633
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: in pubs and various villages and all sorts of talks about.

634
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: Really what we're talking about here is the Boogeyman. So

635
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: now you have um, you have to have these questions answered.

636
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: We have to have these questions answered. How do you

637
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: force someone to answer these questions? Unfortunately, the reality as

638
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: you put the screws to them literally literally in most cases. Now,

639
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting you look at some of the differences between

640
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: which for secution in England and which persecution in mainland Europe.

641
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: And in mainland Europe they had full use of torture

642
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: at their disposal, you name it, they could employ it.

643
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: Now you'll look around and on the internet and you

644
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: can find any number of lists of horrendous torture devices,

645
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: and certainly they're there are a number of inventive and

646
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: then sometimes um, possibly fictitious items out there. When when

647
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: you really come down to it, though, and if you

648
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: really start looking at the history of torture, there are

649
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: a number of very basic things that people have been

650
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: doing to each other since time out of mind, they're

651
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: not that inventive they're not that creative, but they work

652
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: their ways to inflict pain and ultimately make the the

653
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: tortured individual confess to anything you tell them to. Now

654
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: you start, say, using a thumb screw on somebody, they're

655
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: gonna scream. They're going to eventually give up on their

656
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: principles unless they have some sort of as we discussed

657
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: in our Martyrs episode, some sort of extenuating circumstance going

658
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: on with their body or their mind, they're gonna they're

659
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: going to break and so they're going to confess to anything.

660
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: They'll confess to running around with the devil himself. And

661
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: that's why the script is provided, because you don't want

662
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: them to confess to things that are disagreeable with your

663
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: world view, such as the idea that they are best

664
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: buds with the demon with the head devil himself. Again,

665
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: that doesn't jive with the with the overriding misogyny of

666
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: of the claim. So you have to use these questions

667
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: to draw unbelievable, untrue things out of the torture victim.

668
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: But again coming back to the UK, they did not

669
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: have full torture available to them in the persecution of witches.

670
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: They actually weren't able to burn witches in England. Yeah,

671
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: and in the persecution they were not able to administer

672
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: all these different modes of torture. So these stories that

673
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: they were able to get out of the the women

674
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,720
Speaker 1: in England were different. They were they were more tame.

675
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: So while in mainland Europe you'll find just ridiculous accounts

676
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: of just all sorts of gory sexual details, you won't

677
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: see that as much in UK, which is you'll see

678
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: charges of well, she has a weird cat that is

679
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: a demonic familiar, and she has a strange nipple on

680
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: her body that she's probably milking it with that kind

681
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: of thing, while the mainland European which is flying off

682
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: and engaging in a demonic orgy, that kind of thing.

683
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: But again you're resulting to your physical pain to get

684
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: these confessions out of out of many of these women, right,

685
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: So you're talking about thumb tacks versus you know, something

686
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: like the rack being stretched on the rack um and

687
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: the types of confessions that that would come out of

688
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: that situation. UM. I wanted to read a quick excerpt

689
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: from a letter from accused which Johannes Genius, burgomaster at Bamberg,

690
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: who detailed his torture and his confession in a goodbye

691
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: letter to his daughter Veronica. Yeah, to set this up,

692
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: this was in the Bavaria, all right, And this was

693
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: a case where this was no weird outsider in the

694
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: edge of town. This was a successful and learned man.

695
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: His wife had been executed on on witchcraft charges previously,

696
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: and he was an outspoken critic of what was going on,

697
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: and eventually, uh surprise, surprise, the witchcraft allegations were leveled

698
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: at him as well. So if he writes many hundred

699
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: thousand good nights, dearly beloved daughter Veronica, innocent? Have I

700
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: come into prison? Innocent? Have I been tortured? Innocent? Must

701
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: I die? He goes on to talk about some of

702
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: some of the conversations he has with his um torture,

703
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: and he says, the executioner put the thumb screws on me,

704
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: both hands bound together, so that the blood ran out

705
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: at the nails and everywhere, so that for four weeks

706
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: I could not use my hands, as you can see

707
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: from the writing. Thereafter they first dripped me, bound my

708
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: hands behind me, and drew me up in this torpado.

709
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: Then I thought heaven and Earth were at an end.

710
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: Eight times did they draw me up and let me

711
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: fall again, so that I suffered terrible agony, And so

712
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: I made my confession, but it was all a lie.

713
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: Now follows, dear child, what I confessed in order to

714
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: escape the greatest anguish and bitter torture which it was

715
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: impossible for me longer to bear. And he goes on

716
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: and on to discuss it. So what we're talking about

717
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: with estrapado is essentially tying the victim's arms behind his

718
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: or her back and then hanging weights to the feet

719
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: and hoisting that person into their over and over again

720
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: until that person confessed. And obviously arms would come out

721
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: of socket. So it is very rough on on the

722
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: physical body, and um, absolutely a ton of agony would result. Yeah,

723
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: it's a it's a horrible story that of of poor Johannes.

724
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: There's another segment from his his letter where he mentions

725
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: the executioner leading him back to his prison all right

726
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: after after he suffered, and but before he's he's completely broken,

727
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: and the executioner says to him, says, sir, I beg you,

728
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: for God's sake, confess something, whether it be true or not,

729
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: invent something for you cannot endure the torture what will

730
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: be put to you, And even if you bear it all,

731
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: you will not escape, not even if you were an earl.

732
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: But one torture will follow another until you say you

733
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: were a witch. Not before that, he said, will they

734
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: let you go? As you may see by all the trials,

735
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: for one is just like another. So and and that's

736
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: that's key there too. And Walter Stevens in his book

737
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: really points out that that I did it. One trial

738
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: is just like another. This is a factory industry. Here

739
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: there is a process with a desired result, with a

740
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: desired confession that that has to be met too to

741
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: carry out this idea and to make this idea real

742
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: in everyone's minds. Well and not you don't have just

743
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: a Malle's Mouth carum as a text. You also you

744
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: have many other texts out there there are reinforcing this

745
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: idea of which is in the hammer and having to

746
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: to really use brute force. I mean, it's kind of

747
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: like when you think today about anyone who has a

748
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: fringe idea, whether it's a belief in Bigfoot or some

749
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: sort of crazy left or right wing conspiracy theory. They

750
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: have a shelf of books devoted to that. They have

751
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: website sites they can go to. Maybe they even have

752
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, a TV channel they can they can turn

753
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: into as well to have those ideas reinforced. And again

754
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: for the for the witch theorists, the worst witch persecutors,

755
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: and just the average joe. Even there, there's a lot

756
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: of material out there to back up this world view.

757
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 1: That's right. So you're exactly right. So if you think

758
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: about Bigfoot today and all the sort of sort of

759
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: information that's out there that can try to construct this

760
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: story for you, um, with absolutely very similitude, the same

761
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: thing as going on is this confirmation bias, totally completely

762
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: trying to select texts and ideas that line up with witchcraft.

763
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: And I wanted to read this this quick excerpt from

764
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: text called Strips by Jian Fresco uh Pico della Mirandola,

765
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: and he says, um, speaking of a hammer, he says,

766
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: theologians will tell you that these things can be done

767
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: by the by the devil. And you can understand many

768
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: examples from the book of Germans Friar Heinrich and Friar Jacob,

769
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: excellent theologians of the Dominican order called the hammer, and

770
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: you can have this hammer if you want to use

771
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: it against those who are hard headed and do not

772
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: want to believe the truth, So you can either bend

773
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: them to believe what they are supposed to or else

774
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: smash them into a hundred thousand pieces. Yeah, again, this

775
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: is this idea that is fueling all these atrocities. So

776
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: if you look back at this time period and it

777
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: just seems too ghastly to be true, you have to

778
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: remember again these texts are informing confirmation bias, but also

779
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance is at play. Yeah, this is really important.

780
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: You mentioned the texts that people are coming back to

781
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: because again they're they're having to work really hard, and

782
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: this was something that did not exist a four fourteen hundred.

783
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: They do bring this ridiculous idea into the world that

784
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: again would have been not just not just talking as

785
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: a modern observer, this would have been ridiculous pre fourteen hundred.

786
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: That you have to enforce this idea and make a labored,

787
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: intensive k for it being true. So they're turning to

788
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: all of the text they're finding support in the Bible,

789
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: and obviously there's some places there where you can find

790
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: some meat for the idea of female which is but

791
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: then they're turning inevitably to Aristotle. Aristotle was the most

792
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: revered of the the the old philosophers, among the learned

793
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: in medieval times, like this was this was the guy, right,

794
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: his observations about life and observable reality and speculations on

795
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: on things beyond that they ring true, and this man

796
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: was really esteemed for the way that he viewed the world. Well,

797
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: he was hybeological and very much into categorizing everything and

798
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: making sense of the world and cataloging it. Yeah, but

799
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: it's it's really difficult, if not impossible, I mean, really

800
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: it's impossible in several places to unify the works of

801
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: Aristotle with Christian theology. All right, that didn't didn't stop

802
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: people from trying. But ultimately with Aristotle you find that,

803
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: i mean, Aristotle did not believe in the immortality of

804
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: the human soul. And of course, yeah, a big part

805
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: problem because most of Christianity is about the fact that

806
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: when we die there is something else, that there's something

807
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: immortal in ourselves and in the world. So you see

808
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: a certain amount of cognitive dissonance there where someone is

809
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: is saying, hey, Aristotle is great. Christianity is the thing

810
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: that defines my life. But in between, there's this burning question,

811
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: these two things. Why don't these two things go together?

812
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: What is wrong? But we've talked about cognitive distance before.

813
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: It's the idea that you have two conflicting opinions going

814
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: at it in your mind and how do you deal

815
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: with those? And again, the Middle Ages don't think of

816
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: it as a completely unenlightened time. It was an age

817
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: in which you had clever individuals, educated individuals trying to

818
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: figure out how the world works. And while there wasn't

819
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: really a huge population of atheists in Europe at the time,

820
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: there was still a lot of doubt. There was a

821
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: lot of trouble to believe, because ultimately, you're born into

822
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: this story, this religious story of how the world works

823
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: and what it means and what your places in it,

824
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: and there's not really an outside to that. There's it's

825
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: not like today, like if if you're born into Christianity,

826
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: you grow older and you can say, well, I'm actually

827
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: maybe not Catholic anymore, maybe I'm Protestant. Alright, fine, you

828
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: can make that transition. You can say I don't really

829
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: feel Protestant anymore. I feel like I want to explore

830
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: Buddhism or Hinduism, or maybe I'm just completely agnostic. That's fine.

831
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: They're groups for all of those, and in other words,

832
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: there's like a meeting you can go to for each

833
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: of those. It is support group. But within within Catholic

834
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: Europe of the time, there was Catholicism and there was

835
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: the outside, which was damnation, so it was harder to

836
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,959
Speaker 1: wrap your head around. You couldn't just choose the path

837
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: that agreed with you the most, so a lot of

838
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: people were struggling with belief. In fact, French historian Lucien

839
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: Febre argued that the sixteenth century and the three or

840
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: four preceding centuries were quote centuries that wanted to believe

841
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: and despite what we may think, and despite what they

842
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: even wrote. There might have been a few pure blighted atheists,

843
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: but there was no shortage of apathy, agnosticism, and doubt.

844
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: So you talked about cognitive dissonance, and I'm thinking about

845
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: how you're going to react in one of two ways

846
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: if you're met with cognitive dissonance. So if you have

847
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: one idea about the world and then something comes along

848
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: and it's the opposite of that, you're either going to

849
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: have a sea change of opinion, or you're going to

850
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 1: somehow try to fit that into your worldview even though

851
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't really make sense. So I think about Thomas

852
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: Aquinas in terms of this, because he was very into Aristotle,

853
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: and the reason why it was so important to a

854
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: Klinus in the church is because Aristotle gave the kind

855
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: of order that the church needed, an order to to

856
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: really formalize what they were trying to put forth to

857
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: the public their doctrines. And so only that, but you know,

858
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: there's a bit of appropriation of the esteem of Aristotle

859
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: is Oh, so that's why you see this happenings, why

860
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: you see the convergent of these two different ideas and

861
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: the need to get some sort of order in place

862
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: so that you can formalize these ideas and make it

863
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: seem authoritative. And one of the ideas, I mean, the

864
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 1: the key idea that Walter Stevens pushes in Demon Lovers

865
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: comes down to the idea that in the midst of

866
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: this what is essentially a crisis of belief, you have

867
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: an age where people are born into a religion that

868
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: they're finding that they're doubting. That doesn't completely jive yet

869
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: with the world and it's not working the way it should.

870
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: But there's no outside, there's no legitimate way to establish

871
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: a different version of how the world works. They have

872
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 1: to make this one work. So what can you do?

873
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: What can you do to prove to yourself that there

874
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: is a supernatural that there that there are angels, and

875
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: that there is a God, and ultimately that your own

876
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: soul is immortal and not something that dies with your body.

877
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: So this version of Christianity needs witchcraft, right, and I

878
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: mean it's uh. And that that's the actual words of

879
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 1: John Wesley, founder of Methodism. In seventy eight, he argued

880
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: that quote giving up witchcraft is in effect the giving

881
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: up of the Bible. Now that's how that's after the

882
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 1: witchcraft craze finally huffs its last breath. Uh for that period.

883
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: But certainly the argument Walter Stevens makes here is that

884
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: essentially the theorist, the witchcraft theorists, the Hinrich Kramers of

885
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: the time, they were kind of like not NASA scientist,

886
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: forming these ideas of how the world beyond our planet works,

887
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: all right, And then the tortures you can think of

888
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: them as the astronauts, the individuals that are sent out

889
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: to gain that proof. And how are you going to

890
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: gain proof? How can you possibly gain proof of the supernatural,

891
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: something that is by its very nature invisible and as

892
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: an article of faith. Well, you have these witches. And

893
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: if you can somehow get a witch, especially lots and

894
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: lots of witches, to testify, to confess that they have

895
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: had physical sexual relations with a demon, with a supernatural being,

896
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: with a fall an angel, then she has an expert witness.

897
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: She's providing expert testimony to the existence of the supernatural,

898
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: to the existence of God, to the immortality of the

899
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: human soul. And so, in a in a twisted, just horrible,

900
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: just heartbreaking way, you have a half a million women

901
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: die because a bunch of broken, renegade Christians doubt their

902
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 1: own faith. Well, but also appeasing this idea of magical

903
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: thinking right sating people's thirst for this idea that right

904
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: can be wronged and that the unexplained can be explained

905
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:37,959
Speaker 1: in this very simple way. As she is a witch.

906
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: Therefore my leaf stock died. At the same time, you're

907
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: distracting from political problems, you're distracting from poverty, from a

908
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: host of issues that should be on the mind of

909
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: the average person, but instead their mind is occupied with witchcraft. Well,

910
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: and I think that what is truly evil about this

911
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: is that these people, these clergymen, were staring in the

912
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 1: faces of innocence as young as seven years old, seven

913
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: years old, as young as seven year old, convicted of

914
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: having sexual activity with the demon and then executed for it.

915
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: And so again you get this idea of cognitive dissonance.

916
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: What do you do when you are met with that

917
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: sort of innocence, You double down on your beliefs, and

918
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: particularly if you again return to the line of Exodus,

919
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: Thou shalt not permit a sorceress to live, and you

920
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: feel as though you are the representative of God on earth,

921
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: carrying out God's wishes. Yeah, we're shaking our heads. Yeah,

922
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's horrible stuff. I mean, in Walter

923
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: Stephen's book, he he makes a very thorough case for

924
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: the importance of that physical relationship between the witch and

925
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: the demon in virtually every witchcraft text that came out,

926
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: including Malie's Malificarum, where it's it's it's not only making

927
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: the argument that women are are having physical relations with demons,

928
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: but it's having to create the idea that they could,

929
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 1: because prior to four hundred it was also largely thought

930
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: that demons did not have physical bodies, so they were

931
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: purely spirit. So they had to rewrite um metaphysics to

932
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: to to have that makes sense. They had to figure

933
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: out what kind of body would a demon have? How

934
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 1: would it come to have a body? Would it be

935
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: composed of air, would it be composed of some different

936
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: form of flesh? How would this possibly happen? Because they

937
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: needed it to happen so badly well, and cast doubt

938
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: on women in every single enterprise of their life, should

939
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: including midwiffery, in which then you know, of midwife, we

940
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: become suspect because it would think you would think that

941
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: if she were delivering your baby should be offering up

942
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: to the demon. You know. So there's a lot of

943
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: different things that play um. But I think what we

944
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: find ourselves with today is this legacies of angels and

945
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: demons and this idea of women as which is um

946
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: that that continues just to flavor the fabric of our society. Yeah,

947
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: because I mean, certainly the misogyny still exists, the magical

948
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: thinking still exists of in not only much of the world,

949
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: but in everyday life. There's a certain magic of magical thinking.

950
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: I don't care how steeped in skepticism you are, you're

951
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: gonna engage in a little bit of magical thinking. At

952
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: least when you see somebody draw a smiley face on

953
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: the wall, you're gonna see a human face there. I mean,

954
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: it's just on a very basic level, we think magically.

955
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: But then, just as the post fourteen hundred world was

956
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: an age of of religious doubt and change and technological innovation,

957
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: I mean we continue to see that every every day

958
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: in our modern lives. Every age has to have to

959
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: have the same crisises that emerge of where we have

960
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 1: to doubt what we've been taught and and somehow come

961
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: to terms with with what the world is showing us.

962
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: And you see people that resisted that again double down

963
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: to that cognitive dissonance. So I mean, just think to

964
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: your own self, Think to the politics you see on

965
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: the TV every day, to what depths would would you fall?

966
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: What hellish crimes would you commit in order to cling

967
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: to a faith that deep down, or to a political

968
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: idea or what have you that you no longer really believe.

969
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: What would you become in order to maintain that barrier

970
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: between your worldview and the outside, you know, in order

971
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: to defeat the steaming of cognitive distance. Yeah, and as

972
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: Erica Jonging says that witchcraft is, it doesn't. It's not

973
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: something that just went away. It just sort of re arises, uh,

974
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: from time period of time period under a different guys. Um.

975
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: So I did want to point this out to that

976
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: if you're interested in in learning more about witchcraft, at

977
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: least in modern times, um, you can check out an

978
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: HBO documentary Saving Africa's which is. It's a two thousand

979
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: and ten documentary and and actually talked about the plight

980
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: of young Nigerians branded as which is some as young

981
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: as three months old, and some of some of these

982
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: ideas that continue to pervade different cultures. Also, be sure

983
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: to check out which is by Erica jong Um. It

984
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: has some incredible illustrations. It is a wonderful history of

985
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: which is and John also has some great poems in

986
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: there as well. Um. The illustrations are wonderful as well.

987
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: But the one in the cover, like Julie brought it

988
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: to my desk, and that covers a little hippie dippie

989
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: looking because at first glance you only see this this

990
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: very sort of flowers and goodness pagan which at the top,

991
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: but then it becomes a more of a hag at

992
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: the bottom. So when I first saw it, I'm like, oh,

993
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 1: this is some sort of this is not really necessarily

994
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: gonna be in keeping with a lot of what we're

995
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: talking about, but but it's it's really great. And then

996
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: the illustrations inside the book, Uh, trust me, there are

997
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 1: plenty of goat men and naked ladies prancing around for

998
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: for any reader to find interesting. And the content is excellent.

999
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: And again, Walter Stephen's Demon Lover is a great book

1000
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 1: if you want to a deeper dive into that whole

1001
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: discussion of the importance of physical contact between a witch

1002
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: and a demon. It's a great book, but it's also

1003
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: kind of a it's kind of a heavy read, so

1004
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: I don't recommend that to everybody. But I would like

1005
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: to close out with a quote from Walter Stevens in

1006
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: the book, where he's he's looking forward from the medieval

1007
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 1: ages and looking to our own age and again talking

1008
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: about the energy that that perpetrated and and propped up

1009
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: these atrocity and how that energy is still alive in society. Today,

1010
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,919
Speaker 1: He says, the insecurities that produced experiments with witches are

1011
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: not a thing of the past. Both witchcraft theory and

1012
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: scholastic natural philosophy resemble the creation science of late twentieth

1013
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: century Christian fundamentalist All three attempt to make knowledge of

1014
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: the physical world conform to the most literal possible interpretation

1015
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: of the Bible. This is always an exercise and damage controlled.

1016
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: How much of the Good Book can be salvaged when

1017
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: experience collides with tradition and authority. So there you have it.

1018
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: If you have anything you would like to share, if

1019
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: you have something something about which culture today, about how

1020
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: we view the idea of a witch, I'm sure we

1021
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: have some wicked listeners out there. We would love to

1022
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: hear from you. Guys and gals. Let us know what

1023
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: you think about the legacy of the witch in human society,

1024
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: and if anyone has anything I would like to share

1025
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: their thoughts on the history of which persecution and what

1026
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: it meant the various things that made these atrocities happen.

1027
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us

1028
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: on Facebook, and you can find us on tumbler or

1029
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: handle on both of those is stuff to blow your mind,

1030
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: and our Twitter name is blow the Mind and you

1031
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: can also drop us a line at blow the Mind

1032
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: at discovery dot com. For more on this and thousands

1033
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: of other topics, Is It How Stuff Works dot com