1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: Radio this weekend. On the podcast, I have an extra 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: special guest. And for those of you who have enjoyed 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: our prior conversations with UM the behavioral psychologists like Bob 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: Schiller and Richard Taylor and Danny Kahneman and Meyer Stateman 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: and any of the other folks who work in that space, 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: I think you're gonna find this conversation to be absolutely delightful. 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: Robert Schildini is a professor at Arizona. He is also 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: the author of what everybody I know who works in 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: any form of marketing or sales calls their Bible. UH. 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: He wrote the book Influenced the Psychology of Persuasion, and 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: he tells some just absurdly delightful stories of spending time 13 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: working under cover at used car sales places and UM 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: infomercial sorts of shops and UH fundraisers. UH. He also 15 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: explains how Charlie Munger of Berkshire Hathaway was so taken 16 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: by the book UH that thirty years ago he sent 17 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: Bob a single share of Berkshire Hathaway stock UH and, 18 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, turned out pretty well when everything 19 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: is said and done. I found the conversation absolutely delightful, 20 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you will also. With no further ado 21 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: my conversation with Bob Cheldoni. My extra special guest is 22 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Dr Robert Schildini. He received his PhD from the University 23 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: of North Carolina and did some post stock work at 24 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: Columbia uh. He is currently the region's Professor Emeritus of 25 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: Psychology and Marketing at Arizona State University. He is perhaps 26 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: best known as the author of the book Influence, The 27 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: Psychology of Persuasion. That book has sold three million copies 28 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: in over thirty languages. He is also a co author 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: of fifty scientifically proven Ways to be Persuasive. His latest 30 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: book is Persuasion, A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade. 31 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: Robert Sheldini. Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you, Barry. I'm very 32 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: glad to be with you and your listeners. Same here. 33 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk to you because everybody I know 34 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: who works in the field of sales and marketing. When 35 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: I just casually mentioned, oh, by the way, my guest 36 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: this week is going to be uh Dr Sheldini, Professor Sheldini, 37 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: they were like, what from Influence. So they were very 38 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: excited to uh to hear we were having this conversation. 39 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: And I have to begin with the story of the 40 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: original research you did for the book Influence. It almost 41 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: sounds like an urban legend. You spent three years undercover 42 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: working as a used car salesman, a telemarketer, UM, a fundraiser. 43 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: What what was that period like and how instructive was it? 44 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: It was the most instructive and most entertaining research enterprise 45 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: I've ever engaged in, because not only was it fun 46 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: uh to mix up the idea mix up with the 47 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: ideas of people who were actually practitioners who were in 48 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: the business of getting us to say yes, not just 49 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: the study of it, uh, but also I learned so 50 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: much as a consequence of how they employed psychology, which 51 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: is my field, uh, to move others in their direction. 52 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: Did you go into that research expecting I'll get a 53 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: book out of it or was it really let me 54 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: get some practical grounding in the field before I become 55 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: a pure academic. No, that's really a good question. I 56 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: went in to it to get some ideas for doing 57 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: research in my laboratories, UM, where I would say something 58 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: this way versus that way and see how many people 59 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: agreed with it. It was the same thing, I would 60 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: just say it in different ways. But I realized that 61 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: by staying located in a laboratory with college students as 62 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: my subjects, I was missing the power of these techniques 63 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: to really make a difference outside of the laboratory. In 64 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: the real world. Well, there were professions dedicated to getting 65 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: others to say yes to them, and it seemed to 66 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: me there was a lot to learn if I infiltrated 67 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: their training programs and learned what they were teaching their 68 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: perspective professionals. When when did you decide, Hey, you know, 69 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: there could be a book in this. You know. That's 70 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: exactly what happened to me about three months in, because 71 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: what I was learning was telling me there are universal 72 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: principles of persuasion in a limited number, not just hundreds 73 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: or thousands of tactics. They could be They could be 74 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: categorized under six basic categories tendency, human tendencies that inclined 75 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: people towards yes, And so I thought I could put 76 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: each one as a chapter in a book and tell 77 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: the story of what are the fundamental reasons that people 78 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: say yes to requests? As as I was rereading influence 79 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: and reading persuasion, I couldn't help notice the parallels to 80 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: behavioral finance. So you were doing your work in the 81 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: early eighties around the same time as some of the 82 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: early work in behavioral finance. When you're doing your research 83 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: or the academic side of it, did did you ever 84 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: come across the works of comments Aversky, fail or Schiller, 85 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: all the behavioral scientists of that era were these two 86 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: completely different paths. They were parallel paths that converged about 87 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: five or ten years later when I realized, oh wait 88 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: a minute, the work that was coming out of the 89 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: practitioners who were in the streets was comparable to the 90 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: work that was coming out of the scholars who were 91 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: in the avenues. What I did was to move from 92 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: the from my university position the avenues into the streets. 93 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: That was the smartest thing I ever did. So there 94 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: are some examples that are just simply amazing, and I 95 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: want to give a few examples. Can we increase voter 96 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: turnout simply by surveying people and asking them not who 97 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: they're going to vote, but asking them to make a 98 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: prediction whether or not they're going to vote. What what's 99 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: the impact of that. In fact, there is research to 100 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: show that that's the case because people then set a 101 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: path in their mind and a time in their mind, 102 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: and they then use those features as cues that spur 103 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: them into action. Or if it's just left ambiguous, there 104 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: are really no cues in their mind that send them 105 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: and into a behavior change. So simply asking people and 106 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: when you ask people, hey, do you think you're going 107 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: to vote this year? Most people are gonna say, yeah, 108 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: I expect to vote. That simple act then gets them 109 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: committed to actually vote in And if you say where 110 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: and when will you vote? Doubles it doubles it. So 111 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: my local polling places, the library or the school around 112 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: the corner, and just really and it's November six, hypothetically 113 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: this year. That has an impact that does that. That's 114 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: that's quite astonishing. So when you were writing the book, 115 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: after your three year experience um in the trenches, did 116 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: you have any idea how successful this was going to 117 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: be as a book? Did you have any idea that 118 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: sort of reaction this was gonna in gender? I could 119 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: not have sensibly known Verry because there were no books 120 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: like this, And did you have an So sometimes I'll wrap. 121 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll write a column and I'll say, oh, this 122 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: is the greatest thing ever, and it just lands and 123 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: nobody cares. And every now and then I'll put something 124 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: out and I'm like, oh, that's not bad, and it 125 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: just goes. I'm curious if at a book length you 126 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: have SIMI looks, do you have a sense at the 127 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: very least this is very different than than the academic 128 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: literature that's out that right, But I didn't know that 129 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: it was going to be adopted um outside of the 130 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: academic community, which it has. I was in Poland recently 131 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: and I have a colleague from Poland, professor Vilamina Voisinska. 132 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: She said to me, you know, Bob, your book Influence 133 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: is so famous in Poland. My students think you're dead. 134 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. You wrote the book in the early eighties. 135 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: How has the state of the art on psychology and 136 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: persuasion changed since then? The tendencies that people employed to 137 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: decide whether to say yes have not changed. Those were 138 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: evolved over eons. They're still in US hardwired. What's changed 139 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:35,359 Speaker 1: is the channels available for using or tapping those tendencies. 140 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: And the biggest change is the Internet We now have 141 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: available to us information about what other people like us 142 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: have done, are choosing to do, have opinions about from 143 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: around the world, chat rooms, interest groups, various kinds of 144 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: review sites, and so on. We know what thousands of 145 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: people who have similar interests as us are thinking and 146 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: doing and reacting. And if we follow that lead, which 147 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: is what I call the principle of social proof, we 148 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: are much more likely to be successful because we've essentially 149 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: beta tested with all these people the proper response. So 150 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go on a limb here and say, of 151 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: all people, you're probably not very surprised about the role 152 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: of Facebook and fake news possibly having an influence in 153 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: in the last election. I am not surprised because of 154 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: that principle of social proof. We look around us, what 155 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: are the people around us doing? And then there's a second, 156 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: uh dimension, whether the people around us like us doing well? 157 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: That's Facebook. So you talk about social proof. There's an 158 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: example in several of your books that I'm just tickled by. 159 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: Somebody was selling something on an infomercial and they changed 160 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: three little words on the tagline, uh what what you 161 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: normally here operators are standing by please call now. It's 162 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: almost a throw a line. They changed it to if 163 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: operators are busy, please call again, and that simple change 164 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: broke all sorts of sales records going back twenty five years. 165 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: Is that simply a case of social proof that, oh, 166 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: the lines are going to be busy, lots of people 167 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: are buying it, therefore I should buy it. Is it? 168 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: Are we that easily manipulated? It can't be anything else, 169 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: very because think about it. To say, if a lot 170 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: of people to say you might be inconvenienced if you 171 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: try to call us is like death in almost any 172 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: other sense. Right, don't don't try to access our product 173 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: because you might not be able to get access to 174 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: This is saying if a lot of people, if if 175 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: if the lines are busy, call again, that means a 176 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: lot of people just like me are doing this. I 177 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: better get on this train. Do you think they had 178 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: any idea in advance how successful that simple little change 179 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: was gonna be. It just they just got lucky. This 180 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: is what they do with with with what. They try 181 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: out a lot of different things, and then when they 182 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: hit on one, they realize, oh, this works, but they 183 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: don't realize why it works. It's not their job to 184 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: know why it works. That's my job, that's what I 185 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: do for a living. So so let me bring up 186 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: one of my favorite stories from influence that just cracks 187 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: me up. There are these two old tailors, Sid and 188 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: Harry drew Back, one of whom is hard of hearing, 189 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: and uh. The first one he's has a customer trying 190 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: on a suit, and he asked the other one, who's 191 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: across the room stitching something up, how much is this 192 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: is this suit? And the answer comes back, forty that's 193 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: a very fine will suit. It's forty two dollars. This 194 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: is during the depressure right way back when, and the 195 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: heart of hearing. One turns to the customer and says, 196 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: he said it's twenty two dollars, and the customer thinks 197 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: he's getting a deal immediately buys it again. Is it 198 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: that easy to fool our wet wear that just oh, 199 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: it's a forty two dollars suit, I'm getting it twenty 200 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: dollars off. Let me get it before anybody realizes it 201 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: is that easy? Because we are so hardwired for these principles, 202 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: they just cause us to leap into a choice when 203 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: one or another of them is present. Let me give 204 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: you a quote from the book, which I find fascinating. 205 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: We all fool ourselves from time to time in order 206 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: to keep our thoughts and beliefs consistent with what we 207 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: have already done. Why is the desire for consistency such 208 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: a motivator of behavior? Two reasons. One is, we prefer 209 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: to have our for reasons of self concept, to be 210 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: consistent within ourselves, right. We want to see ourselves as 211 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: reasonable as logical and rational individuals. Who would be who 212 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: would say one thing that would fit with the next 213 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: thing we say. The other is the people around us 214 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: want us to be consistent too, And so for both 215 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: of those reasons internal UH status and external status, we 216 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: want to be consistent and appear to be consistent in 217 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: our environments. So so let's talk about the status of 218 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: social primates in a group. Why is reciprocity such a 219 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: strong influencer. Is this just the result of our evolutionary 220 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: biology uh becoming the dominant species as part of a 221 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: social group of primates that lived and worked in in 222 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: teams or what? How do you explain that? Yeah, I 223 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: think I think it's both hardwired in us over a 224 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: long period of time. If we back to those who 225 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: give to us first. That's the rule of reciprocity, and 226 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: we have to do that. Uh. Then people will want 227 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: to be with us, will want to work with us, 228 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: will want to exchange with us. If we don't do that, 229 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: we have very nasty names for people who take without 230 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: giving in return. We call them moochers or takers or 231 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: teenagers actually, and nobody wants to be labeled like that. 232 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: So we will go to great lengths to give back 233 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: after we have received. I just saw a study, uh, 234 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: in a candy shop. If a if a manager greets 235 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: um people who come into the store warmly and then 236 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: invite invites them to the counter, that's the control group. 237 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: If instead he and gree greets them warmly and gives 238 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: them a piece of chocolate, they buy forty more candy. Really, 239 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: that's amazing that they're giving back. The other reference you 240 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: make is um in one of the books, and they're 241 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: all kind of a blur in my head. But if 242 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: when you hand the check to somebody at a restaurant, 243 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: when the waiter brings the check, if you include a 244 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: mint or a chocolate with the check, what does that 245 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: end up doing versus having a mint at the desk 246 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: on the way out. It means the server has given 247 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: you something personally, and the server's tip goes up three 248 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: point three percent if there's a mint on the tray. 249 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: Now here's the interesting thing. If there are two mints 250 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: on the tray, his tip goes up fourteen points. Really, 251 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: that's amazing. Um, let's do another social proof, which is 252 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with what's a simple way to avoid hung juries? Ah, 253 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: don't let people vote preliminarily by raising their hands. Can't 254 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: be in public in other ways, you need a secret. 255 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: You write the vote down, you take a test straw poll. 256 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: But no, once you raise your hand in public, you're 257 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: now you're You're committed for for now. Is that social 258 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: proof or is that consist It's consistency. You will now 259 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: resist changing your mind, even in the face of evidence, 260 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: because you've made a public commitment to that choice. Quite 261 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: quite fascinating. The example of the smoker who hand wrote 262 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of notes I promise you I will never 263 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: smoke another cigarette, and gave them out to co workers 264 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: and friends and a now former boyfriend, but at the 265 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: time a serious boyfriend that that smoker said the only 266 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: thing that prevented her from ever smoking again where those 267 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: notes is that commitment and consistency or social approval and 268 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: social proof its commitment and consistency because of social approval, 269 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: Violating your promise in the face of the people you 270 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: care about means you lose their approval. And so that's 271 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: the thing that people don't want to do. So if 272 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: they make a public commitment to people they really care about, 273 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: that will hold them steady to their choice more than 274 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: making that a private commitment to themselves. So I thought 275 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: about doing when I read that in the book, I 276 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: thought about doing that exact thing, And I have to 277 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: tell you, honestly, it really scared me because once you 278 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: write it down and commit to five or ten people, 279 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: that's a powerful, powerful thing hanging over your head. You 280 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: have to decide do I really want to fill in 281 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: the blank, go to the gym, lose weight, whatever. Once 282 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: you once you make that commitment, that is just really strong, 283 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: and it's remarkable how small the commitment can be. There's 284 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: a study done in Chicago. Buy our restaurant owner he 285 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: had his receptionists changed two words and what she said 286 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: when she took an order a reservation excuse me from 287 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: please call if you have to change or cancel your 288 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: reservation too. Will you please call if you have to change, 289 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: And then she waited for people to say yes, I 290 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: will it reduced no shows by Wow, that's amazing. I 291 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: have to ask you about the way you use the 292 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: term um compliance officials and compliance agents. It really is 293 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: a question of getting people to comply with your goals, desires, 294 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: or requests. And it's different from persuasion. I don't have 295 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: to persuade somebody that we should see this movie that 296 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: I prefer if I just say, you know, you chose 297 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: the movie last time. So I've I've changed them, I 298 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: influenced them, I've gotten them to comply with my request 299 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: without changing their opinion about the movie at all. Very interesting. 300 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: So there was a thirty year period between Influence and 301 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: then Persuasion, which is almost like a prequel to that book. 302 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: I know you've done other writings in between, but really 303 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: focusing on a big, bold idea and expanding it to 304 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: a full book. Why why did you take three decades 305 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: and what motivated this book? I think the the key 306 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: is that these are my only two solely authored books. 307 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: First Influence thirty years later pre Suasion, And the reason 308 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: I waited is that I. I didn't want to just 309 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: plant a series of bushes around the tree that influence 310 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: had become. I wanted to wait till I had the 311 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: seed for another tree, and that didn't come along till 312 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: the idea for pre suasion and and influence is a 313 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: giant redwood. We were discussing earlier. This is a tremendously 314 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: influential book amongst marketing and sales professionals. Who do you 315 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: think the audience for pre Suasion is going to be 316 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: similar or different? Possibly differently? It will also be influence professionals, 317 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: but I hope it will also be UH citizens who 318 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: want to know that UM, they can resist certain kinds 319 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: of influence that they never recognized before. It's the influence 320 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: that comes before they receive a persuasive appeal. And you 321 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: give a number of examples of that, including UM. Some 322 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: of my favorites were a little bit infuriating. The minor 323 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: commitment for something small and then later they asked for 324 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: something big, or the underpricing of something. You get somebody 325 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: to agree to buy something for much less money than 326 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: it perhaps should have been, or a couple of hundred 327 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: bucks off a car or something, and then by the 328 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: shockingly when oh, somebody caught it, my manager, the bank, 329 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: somebody caught the mistake. Hey, this car is in twenty 330 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: four thousand, it's twenty five thousand. They still seem to 331 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: go along with the purchase. I can't imagine tolerating that. 332 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: Do most people put up with that? Or it's I 333 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: would lose my mind. In a car dealership, it's so 334 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: common it's called the lowball to technique. It actually has 335 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: a label in car sales. This is not an accident. 336 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: This is done on purpose. This is done on purpose. 337 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,719 Speaker 1: They do it, and very often it's done where they 338 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: will give you a price on your trade in that 339 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: that's way too high, and then the used car manager 340 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: comes in with the blue book and says, I'm sorry, 341 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: our salesperson made a mistake. It's really doesn't He shows 342 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: you the real price and you say, okay, caught me. 343 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: You never realize that they caught you. What what other 344 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: things can we do to to shield ourselves from these 345 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: sorts of techniques other than read the book. If you 346 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: read the book, and by the way, if that ever 347 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: happens to you, use the term lowball, call it a lowball. 348 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: That's against the law. In most yes, I mean, it's 349 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: against ray regulations. State in state state rules, they will 350 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: start backpedaling like a cornerback fly route. Really, that's interesting. 351 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: So you also mentioned um, the scannily clad, lovely woman 352 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: who came to your house trying to sell you the 353 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: book of entertainment stuff, and you said, if only I 354 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: had revealed that I understood the technique and called her 355 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: out on it, she would have been out of their 356 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: fastest as can be. Is it Are these techniques that 357 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: effective that as soon as people know you're using these 358 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: techniques they back away from them. Well, that's a crucial question, 359 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: because if they're being used dishonestly, yes, then when we 360 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: call them on them, we've caught them in the lie, 361 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: and then they back away. But if they're being used honestly, if, 362 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: for example, the last time I brought a television set, 363 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: I was in a play in store I was really 364 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: looking for when the salesman came up to me, So, 365 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: I see you're interested in this set over here that 366 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: I was looking at, But it's our last one, really, 367 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: And I just got a call from a woman who 368 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: said she might come by this afternoon to buy it, 369 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: right Barry. Twenty minutes later, I'm wheeling out of the 370 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: store with that television said in my cart. And I'm 371 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be the doctor of influence. If you get 372 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: suckered by these things, what helped you the rest of us? Well, 373 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: here's the key. Was I a sucker? I went back 374 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: the next day to see if that if there was 375 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: an empty spot on the shelf, and there was, And 376 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: so I went back to my office and I wrote 377 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: a glowing review of that store and that salesperson. But 378 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: if there had been another one, I would written a 379 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: very negative review. That's how we have to defend ourselves. 380 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: Not just look at reviews from others who have experienced 381 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: this store or that salesperson. We have to contribute to 382 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: that so that they don't get away with it in 383 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: the future. I have to ask you about a Benjamin 384 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: Franklin quote that you reference that I'm also tickled by quote. 385 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: He that has once done you a kindness will be 386 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: more ready to do you another than he who whom 387 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: you yourself as obliged. Tell the story if you would, 388 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: about the person Franklin was having a hard time UH 389 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: with who had a fairly substantial library. What what happened? Now, 390 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: So this was a guy that Franklin was in conflict 391 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: with regularly on a lot of political issues. They didn't 392 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: like each other, and so Franklin asked this guy to 393 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: lend him a book. The guy did. Now, the guy 394 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: had a fairly substantial library of ram manuscripts, and of 395 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: course was deeply proud of of that library. Correct, And 396 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: he gave Franklin the book. And Franklin said in commentary, 397 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: now he has to think of me differently. He has 398 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: to think of me as someone who's worthy of receiving 399 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: one of his prize books. I've changed his conception of 400 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: me now. And he sends the book back with a note, 401 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: I'm deeply obliged, and if you ever need a favorite, 402 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: please never hesitate to ask. The dynamic completely flips, completely 403 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: fix even though he's the one who's obligated, the person 404 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: who was so difficult to him suddenly become as much 405 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: more flexible, malleable, pleasant. He did a friendly thing, and 406 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: he becomes a friend as a consequence. Is act the consistency? 407 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: What is the consistency principle? Because you wouldn't have lent 408 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: that book to him, right, But it was the ego 409 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: and the pride in the library that's sort of you know, 410 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: there's a way to compliment people that fits with this 411 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: compliment people, to give them reputations to live up to 412 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: give them a compliment. So, for example, I've I've got 413 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,239 Speaker 1: a guy who who delivers my newspaper every morning, and 414 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: I want him to put it in the center of 415 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: my driveway so it doesn't get wet when the sprinklers 416 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: sprinkler systems. So I wrote him a little note, thank you, 417 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: Carlos for putting my my paper in the center of 418 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: the driveway, which he would do of the time. Thank 419 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: you for that. That's very conscientious of you. Since then one, 420 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: so you must be a dangerous person to be a 421 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: neighbor with people who don't even realize what they're what 422 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: what they're dealing with. Let's let me give you another 423 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: quote of the from the book that I really like. Quote. 424 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,239 Speaker 1: People seem to be more motivated by the thought of 425 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: losing something than by the thought of gaining something of 426 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: equal value. That's kind of intriguing. Why Why is that? 427 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: Is that simply the endowment effect? We put more value 428 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: on that which we already have. Why is the prospect 429 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: of a gain of equal value versus a loss it 430 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: sounds a lot like risk aversion. But why is that? Well, 431 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: you use the right term prospect, because prospect theory, developed 432 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: by Daniel Konneman won him the Nobel Prize in Economics 433 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: a few years ago for the idea that the prospects 434 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: of losing something are psychologically much more potent than the 435 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: prospects of gaining that very same thing. He demonstrated it 436 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. And the reason I think 437 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: is evolutionary. If we gain some unit of value, let's 438 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: say we're on we're you know here we are, we're 439 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: doing okay, alright, we gained something, now we're doing better. 440 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: If we lose something, we might be gone. It's an 441 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: existential threat as opposed to a temporary increase in we 442 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: might be below the subsistence level. We might lose the 443 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: ability to carry on. So we're much more interested in 444 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: being sure we don't lose. And you're right about loss 445 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: of version as the proper label for this. So let's 446 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: talk about authority a little bit. There are some interesting 447 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: things happening in in that space. Where does authority come from? 448 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: And why is it so influential over us? It normally 449 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: makes sense. Now I'm thinking of authority as being an 450 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: authority rather than being in authority. Right, somebody who's an expert, 451 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: somebody who's knowledgeable, somebody who's an authoritariative voice on a 452 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: particular topic. It makes great sense to follow the lead 453 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: of the people who know the most about that topic. 454 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: It reduces our uncertainty as to what we should do, 455 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: and it allows us to get off the fence, stop 456 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: dealing and and dithering, and move forward to something valuable 457 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: because it is associated with the views of the true 458 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: experts on the topic. So here is another quote. Nothing 459 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: in life is as important as you think it is 460 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: while you were thinking about it. Uh, And that comes 461 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: from pre suasion. Why why is that the case? This 462 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: is actually a quote from Daniel Kaneman, And it has 463 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that when we focus our 464 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: attention on something, we typically assign it more value as 465 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: a result of that focus. And here's why. If if 466 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: you go into a new situation, you know what you're 467 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: going to do. You're going to size up that situation 468 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: and look to the feature in it that is most 469 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: important to you. All Right, So if a community, but 470 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: there's a loophole in this system, if a communicator can 471 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: get you to focus on some element in that situation. 472 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: You presume that because you are focusing on it, it's 473 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: more important to you. So, in other words, by redirecting 474 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: people's attention, you automatically get them to raise the priority 475 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: level of what you're what you're looking at or focus. Yes, 476 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: because you've hijacked a normal, a typical system that that 477 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: works most of the time. You focus on the most 478 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: important things. So if I can get you to focus 479 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: on something, I will have caused you to miss judge 480 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: its importance upward, What is it about writing something down 481 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: that has a similar effect, Even if it's a minor thing. 482 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: Once you put pen to paper, suddenly it becomes a 483 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: bigger priority. Is that again, back to just consistency, It 484 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: is it is consistency. But also when you write things down, 485 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: they typically become public. They're available for other people to see. 486 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: So you want to be consistent in yourself, but you 487 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: also want to be consistent in the eyes of the 488 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: people whose regard you care about. You tell the story 489 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: and in influence about the Chinese um interrogators in the 490 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: North Korean Conflict of American servicemen, and they weren't brutal. 491 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: They weren't torturing people. They were doing these very very 492 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: subtle psychological um nudges for lack of better word, How 493 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: does a small little thing writing down something like America 494 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: isn't perfect become something as significant as it looks like 495 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: you're uh spouting communist propaganda? How how do you go 496 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: from that little thing to something as giantist? So let 497 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: me say what they did in in Korea in the 498 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: prison camps. So this, So they would say, so you 499 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: would agree that America isn't perfect, right, it's nothing. Yeah, 500 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: I'll agree Americans. And then they'd say that's the stepping stone. 501 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: And then they'd say how is it? How is it imperfect? 502 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: Can you tell us some of the ways? And then well, 503 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, we've got some economic ups and downs, we 504 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: don't do the greatest thing with all of the members 505 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: of our community and so on. And then they say, well, 506 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: this is your idea. Could you write it down now 507 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: for us? And then after you've ridded it down, they say, 508 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: now would you be willing to speak to this this 509 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: thing that you wrote on the camp Um broadcasting system 510 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: and now you are giving aid and comfort to the 511 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: enemy in public. It's that it's that subtle, it's that nuanced, 512 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, just by admitting the 513 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: country is imperfect, suddenly you go down a slippery slope 514 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: to where your borderline violating used to be. Name ranking, 515 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: serial number. Yeah, that's right, used to be that's all 516 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: you could give. But sure, I mean everybody, no, no, 517 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: society is perfect. If you agree to that, that's the 518 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: first step down that slippery slope. So let me ask 519 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: something a little more pleasant. Um, The number one rule 520 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: for salespeople is to show customers they genuinely like them. 521 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: Why is this so much more important than the product 522 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: they're actually trying to sell? Well, if you see I 523 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: know for myself, if I see that a salesman likes me, 524 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: I exhale a breath. Oh good, this person is going 525 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: to take care of my interests. My flanks are protected. 526 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: It's somebody who likes me. It used to be that 527 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: they said the number one rule of sales was to 528 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: get your customer to like you. I've revised that to no. No, 529 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: come to like your customer so that when they see 530 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: that you like them, they will feel comfortable, and they 531 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: will be right to feel comfortable if you have really 532 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 1: come to like them, you will take care of their interests. 533 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: So my last question, how can we work to protect 534 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: ourselves from unscrupulous users of these various techniques. You use 535 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 1: the right term unscrupulous, right. We don't want people not 536 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: to tell us when there's true scarcity, when there's true 537 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: social proof, when there's true, true authority to move in 538 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: a particular direction. Those things have become hardwired because they 539 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: actually serve a purpose. That's a great insight. That's why 540 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: they're hardwired. They typically lead us in positive directions. But 541 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: if somebody counterfeits them, those are the unscrupulous operators. Those 542 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: of the people we have to watch out for. And 543 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: we can do it uh sometimes by looking at the 544 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 1: u the message that they present. If they're fast talking, 545 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: for example, that's good. But I like the idea of 546 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: looking at reviews and contributing to reviews for any organization, 547 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: any individual that is trying to move us in a 548 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: particular direction, we have to provide evidence of whether they 549 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: were honest and genuine or whether they were duplicitous. Quite fascinating. 550 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: Can you stick around a little bit. I have a 551 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: ton more questions for you. I can We have been 552 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: speaking with Professor Robert Chaldini of Arizona State University. If 553 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: you enjoy this conversation, be sure and come back for 554 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: the podcast extras, where you can hear where we keep 555 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: the tape rolling and continue discussing all things persuasion and compliance. 556 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: You can find that wherever your final podcasts are sold. 557 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us 558 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. You can 559 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: check out my daily column at Bloomberg dot com slash Opinion. 560 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter at Riholts. I'm Barry Riholts. You're 561 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to 562 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: the podcast, Bob. It seems so funny, Colin Bob. Thank 563 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: you so much for doing this. I have been looking 564 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,479 Speaker 1: forward to this for a while. I didn't really mention yes, 565 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: fifty scientifically proven ways to be persuasive. But this is 566 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: one of those books that you could just randomly pick up, 567 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: open it to any page and there's a two or 568 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: three page vignette that is so informative, and and oh 569 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: it just crystallizes something. So I have to go I 570 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: I just find it fascinating. I have to go back 571 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: to the early days when you were undercover. So, so 572 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: you worked at at fundraising organizations and infomercials and use 573 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: card dealers. Who do you think was the best at 574 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: applying the techniques of persuasion? And who do you think 575 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: you learned the most from watching of those professionals, both 576 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: those professions and individual you referenced Jim Uh, the guy 577 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: was selling them the alarm fire alarm systems, who had 578 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: a wonderful little technique, Oh, I left something in the 579 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 1: car or whatever, would it be okay if I leave 580 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: and let myself back in? And just that subtle little 581 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: thing of you're now imbuing him with trust to come 582 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: back into the house. He said to me, Bob, who 583 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 1: do you allow back into your house with your key? 584 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: Who do you give your own key to get back 585 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: into your house? It's somebody you trust, right man? And 586 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: he said, I want those couples trusting me before I 587 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: ever begin my sales pitch. That's so. So that was 588 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: the alarm business. Uh, the used car or new car 589 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: business is one of the most frustrating shopping experiences of everything. 590 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: What is that about? And and what did you learn 591 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: from that group? You know, what I learned is that 592 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: they recognize over many, many years. They found out what works, right, 593 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: but they really don't understand why it works. Conceptually, what 594 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: or psychologically? What are the factors that make this thing work. 595 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: When I would ask them about it, they would just 596 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: give me a circular answer, Uh, you know, it works 597 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: because they like it, or they you know, they've come 598 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: to like because I've made them like it. It doesn't 599 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: they don't know what they did in some kind of 600 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: psychological sense. That was the most fun for me was 601 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: to take something that really worked and unpacked it. Unpack 602 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: it in terms of the drivers of it, not just 603 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: the procedures that produced it, but the psychological tendencies that 604 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: accounted for it. And what about some of the infomercials. 605 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: The examples you've given the book are just it's a 606 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: The takeaway I constantly come back to is are we 607 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 1: really that easy to manipulate? And I keep coming back 608 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: to the answer, Yeah, I guess we are. We are 609 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: because these things are hardwired in us, and we get 610 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: we get cues that trigger those responses that are essentially unthinking. 611 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: Because most of the time, if one or another of 612 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: these principles is really their authority social proof, they do 613 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: steer us correctly. So these people are essentially hijacking are 614 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 1: our natural tendencies by by counterfeiting the cues for when 615 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: we should undertake action that's consistent with those tendencies. You 616 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: use the example of the female predator firefly using a 617 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: certain set of illuminations and dances that to a slightly 618 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: different male firefly species appears to be a mating dance, 619 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: and instead they come to them, at which case they're devoured. 620 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 1: Um So if that was too successful, they'd eliminate their 621 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: food supply and p and the other fireflies would eventually 622 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: learn not to respond to that. Apparently this can work 623 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,879 Speaker 1: just when it's on the margins. You can't overreach as 624 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: a species or as a salesperson precisely, right, Huh, that's 625 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: quite interesting. Um. The other thing that really stood out 626 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: in the book, and I mentioned this during the broadcast portion, 627 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: it is the overlap in the parallels to some of 628 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: the behavioral finance things we've seen. What do you find 629 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: in that space to be interesting and do you ever 630 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: go there thinking, Hey, that's something I should research or 631 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: this is an area I might want to experiment with, 632 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: Because there's a lot of interesting academic work done on 633 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: that side of the There is, and of course people 634 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: like Daniel Kneman First Key and Richard Taylor are um 635 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: are superstars in that area, and I certainly want to 636 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: pay attention to what they've done. UM. But there's another 637 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: couple of guys who are not in that space, not 638 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:01,760 Speaker 1: academics Buffet and Monger, who have taught me. Because about 639 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five years ago, I went to my mailbox 640 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 1: and opened an envelope. It was a share of Berkshire 641 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:18,280 Speaker 1: Hathaway stock, right, which, by the way, this is another 642 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,240 Speaker 1: urban legend which it turns out to be true about 643 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: you and Charlie Manga tell us. It was sent to 644 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: me by Charlie. He said, I read that book that 645 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: you wrote, and it's been so gainful for us here 646 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: that by the rule of reciprocation, you're entitled to a 647 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: share of stock. It was about seventy five thou dollars 648 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: then back then then, and that that what year was 649 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: at It was years ago, so years ago seventy is 650 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: real money. Well, it's three hundred and twenty dollars, not 651 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: to chavvy. But the thing is, because I had that 652 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: share of stock, I was able to get the Berkshire 653 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: Hathaway shareholders letter and it is brilliant psychology. It is brilliant. 654 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: And so that's where I've been exposed to some of 655 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:18,320 Speaker 1: the connection between this stuff and finance by reading that 656 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: letter and seeing how Buffett, who's not just um a 657 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: brilliant investor, he's a brilliant communicator about being a brilliant investor. 658 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: So I have to ask the a little bit about 659 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 1: the Monger story. Your your home and a letter comes. 660 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: What's going through your mind when you open up this 661 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: package with a stock certificate? And I assumed there was 662 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,919 Speaker 1: a cover letter from what was that moment? Like? It 663 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: was disbelief. It was because as you say, years ago, 664 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,959 Speaker 1: that's it. That was a lot to me. Uh and uh, 665 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: and I think this is this is a joke. One 666 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: of my friends has done this because they know how 667 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: much of a fan I am of Berkshire Hathaway. I 668 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: never could afford it at that point to buy. But 669 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 1: it turns out I checked it out and it wasn't 670 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: And then there was a phone number there come on, 671 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, and Charlie said, could you give me a 672 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,320 Speaker 1: call because we I'd like to And then he asked 673 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: me to do some things for him and with him 674 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: and now, um, we're friends. That's a that's an amazing story. 675 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of their work they're writing. And 676 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,919 Speaker 1: I always use Monger's admonition to invert. Anytime you're looking 677 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: at something and it's a little perplexed, ask yourself, well, 678 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: what would happen if the counter facts? What would happen 679 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: if the opposite were drew? What does that mean? And 680 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,880 Speaker 1: very often it's pretty clear that, oh, I'm looking at 681 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: this from the wrong angle. Once I flip it, it 682 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: becomes very very easy to uh to do and perhaps 683 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: the greatest a little bit of social proof. Right in 684 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: the middle of the financial crisis, and oh, eight oh nine, 685 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: Buffett pens a op ed and I don't remember it 686 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: was the New York Times of the Wall Street Journal, 687 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 1: but it was one of the bigger mainstream papers saying, um, 688 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 1: by America, I know I am and said, hey, I'm 689 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: a long term investor even at eighty four whatever he 690 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: was back then, late late seventies. Uh, and I'm buying 691 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: stock here and you should also. That's potentially enormously influential. 692 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: Another example of social proof, Yes, coupled with authority, huge authority. 693 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: Perhaps the most successful investor of all time. He's got 694 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: an advance. Him and Charlbabe have an advantage that good 695 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: genetics and longevity allow compounding. And the last couple of 696 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,839 Speaker 1: decades certainly hasn't hasn't hurt their uh their reputations. What 697 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,359 Speaker 1: what else have you done with Monger and of it? 698 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: It seems like that's an interesting crew to hang with. Well, 699 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: you know they Charlie has a dinner every um every 700 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: weekend before the Berkshire Hathaway annual event. And uh this 701 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: z an omaha. My wife and I are invited along 702 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 1: with other people. Um, and what we get to hear 703 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: his latest piece of wisdom, you know. And he said 704 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: something a couple of years ago. I really like it, 705 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: he said. The way I help myself avoid mistakes is 706 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,560 Speaker 1: I keep a list of inanities, the things not that 707 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,719 Speaker 1: I have done wrong, because I will protect myself from 708 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 1: believing they were mistakes, you know, just human psychologist. Sure, 709 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,359 Speaker 1: but I keep a list of the inanities of the 710 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: people around me who have made terrible mistakes. And before 711 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: I make any choice, I consult that list and make 712 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: sure I'm not falling into the same mistake territory that 713 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: they They strode through in making that mistake. That's hilarious. 714 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 1: Figure out what somebody you don't respect would do and 715 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 1: then just do the opposite that that that's fascinating, That 716 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 1: their body of work and there philosophy is going to 717 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 1: live on for for a long long time. Before I 718 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: get to my favorite questions, I just wanted to go through, 719 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: um the other questions to see what I might have missed. 720 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,799 Speaker 1: There were two in particular, UM I wanted to ask 721 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,319 Speaker 1: you about, and then we'll jump to our favorites. So 722 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:44,320 Speaker 1: you have consulted on several political campaigns as a behavioral 723 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 1: scientist over the past a couple of decades. I have 724 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: a couple of questions on this. The first is have 725 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:58,800 Speaker 1: the modern techniques of of political campaigning? How much better 726 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: have we has this group gotten at figuring out what 727 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: voters really want, what motivates them, and how to reach them? 728 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,719 Speaker 1: Is that now dark art? Or is it becoming a 729 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,919 Speaker 1: science or somewhere it's it's a science. It's it's it's 730 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 1: big data and big data churning and crunching and and 731 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 1: extracting that kind of information. But what we've learned I 732 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,719 Speaker 1: think the biggest difference in modern life is that here 733 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: in the United States we've become partisan. We we we 734 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:37,520 Speaker 1: are not really susceptible to persuasion attempts anymore to change 735 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 1: our opinions or our beliefs or or attitudes towards various candidates. 736 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: What they have focused on is getting out the vote 737 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,760 Speaker 1: from your base. If you do that, you win. Whoever 738 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,920 Speaker 1: gets more of their base out right is the victor. Now. 739 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 1: I remember reading a Wired magazine article about the former 740 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,799 Speaker 1: Google employees who had joined the Obama campaign, and apparently 741 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: the iteration and the big data analysis that you're referring to, 742 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 1: they became tremendously successful at knowing how to word the 743 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: request for donations. Where to put it is at the top, left, 744 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: is at the bottom right, the even the font and 745 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,879 Speaker 1: the color and the size. They just test. They had 746 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: so many paige us. They would just test in A B, 747 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: A B, A B, test over and over again. Eventually 748 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 1: they just kept tacking towards what worked. That's that's the 749 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: big data. So that that's right. So now you're not 750 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,280 Speaker 1: really talking about persuasion. You're talking about influence, getting people 751 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,000 Speaker 1: to donate, getting people to register, getting people to vote. 752 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: To the choir that you're preaching to as opposed to converting. 753 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,480 Speaker 1: That's right, you're not converged. And but they've figured out 754 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,719 Speaker 1: ways to make that more successful. So, for example, during 755 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,319 Speaker 1: a campaign, there will be a lot of volunteers who 756 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,879 Speaker 1: are hand fassers they call it, try to get people 757 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,960 Speaker 1: to donate or or or or register. What they have 758 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:13,440 Speaker 1: found is if that person can say to the uh, 759 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: to the recipient of the message, I'm your neighbor or 760 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: I live here in town two. So it's not like 761 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,400 Speaker 1: bringing people in from out of state isn't as successful 762 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 1: as saying, hey, I live in the same town as you. 763 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 1: And here's why this is important. That's what they've learned. 764 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 1: You bring in these people from someplace else because you 765 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,960 Speaker 1: need to staff a particular office, and you're not nearly 766 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 1: as effective. It's the connection that allows you to say, oh, 767 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,800 Speaker 1: this person is like me. I can move in this direction. 768 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:51,960 Speaker 1: So so let me um reference the current White House 769 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,400 Speaker 1: occupant and you said something now that puts Donald Trump 770 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,400 Speaker 1: into a little more better context. I always thought that 771 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: he was a very un persuasive sort of politician, because 772 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 1: we know he has a tendency to not tell, be 773 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,799 Speaker 1: a straight shoot, to not tell the truth. He kind 774 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,560 Speaker 1: of makes stuff up on the fly. But what I'm 775 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 1: hearing from you is he's not trying to persuade me 776 00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,359 Speaker 1: to switch a vote, or to come to go from 777 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,360 Speaker 1: a center left progressive New York or to let me 778 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,279 Speaker 1: support someone who's very right of center. What you're suggesting 779 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,640 Speaker 1: is he wants to motivate his base. He wants to 780 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 1: take the people who um believe as he does and 781 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,759 Speaker 1: get them out to vote. While we're having this conversation, uh, 782 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,120 Speaker 1: there's the caravan from Guatemala he's talking about. He's talking 783 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,600 Speaker 1: about tax cuts, he's talking about our friends, the Saudis, 784 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,120 Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff that I would imagine the opposing 785 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: party and even people in the middle would disagree with. 786 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,480 Speaker 1: But his base just eats up. He does a couple 787 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: of things very well. Is to speak with confidence and certainty, 788 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,440 Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not it's deserved or not. And 789 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:10,320 Speaker 1: that does move people into saying, oh, well, here's an authority. 790 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,239 Speaker 1: This person must know what he's talking about. Look at 791 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,279 Speaker 1: the confidence the certainty with which he speaks. All right, 792 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,800 Speaker 1: that's one thing. The other thing is he uses social 793 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:25,800 Speaker 1: proof brilliantly in his um. Everybody knows his people, that everybody, 794 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,480 Speaker 1: everybody I talked to, he says. But then in his 795 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 1: campaign rallies he has he he has the cameras, he 796 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,680 Speaker 1: says to the camera, Turn the cameras around. Take a 797 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: look at this big room filled with people. Social proof. 798 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,160 Speaker 1: If all these people think I'm legitimate, of all these 799 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,880 Speaker 1: people think I'm right, I must be right. I have 800 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,319 Speaker 1: had the debate with friends who think he's dumb, and 801 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,760 Speaker 1: I argue with them. You have to acknowledge his street smarts. 802 00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 1: You have to acknowledge, all right, he's not read, and 803 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,839 Speaker 1: we can't call him a great communicator, but he's an 804 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,240 Speaker 1: incredibly effective communicator to that group of people, the people 805 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,440 Speaker 1: he wants to motivate to get out and voted. It's 806 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,239 Speaker 1: I'm always I'm an independent. I'm always astonished how the 807 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,759 Speaker 1: partisanship on the left, how the Democrats, I don't I 808 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:24,000 Speaker 1: don't really mean partisanship. How the faith in your own 809 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:31,000 Speaker 1: political beliefs can obscure some truths out there that would 810 00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:36,759 Speaker 1: make you a more effective party candidate, ideology, whatever. But 811 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: people have a hard time seeing pest the end of 812 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:44,840 Speaker 1: their nose. Yeah, once, once you've got a hard position. 813 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 1: It's really difficult to move away from it, especially if 814 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,759 Speaker 1: you've made it in an active public way. If if 815 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: you're going to give advice to either political party about 816 00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,400 Speaker 1: either getting their base out to vote or persuading the 817 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 1: independence in the middle. A lot of states are purple 818 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,320 Speaker 1: um and if we hold a side the Gerryman's their districts, 819 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,399 Speaker 1: what advice would you provide to try and UM win 820 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: that great purple middle. It's something that for some reason, 821 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,320 Speaker 1: the two major parties have not employed systematically. It's something 822 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 1: called the convert communicator, which is what somebody who used 823 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:32,479 Speaker 1: to believe the other side and now testifies, Oh no, 824 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: and then I realized or I saw something, or this 825 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,680 Speaker 1: happened to me. It could be, for example, in a 826 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,759 Speaker 1: healthcare issue. You know, I was an opponent of this, 827 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,160 Speaker 1: and then I got sick or my son got sick, 828 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 1: and then they say, I used to be in your shoes. 829 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:54,440 Speaker 1: You can't reject somebody who was like you, right, And 830 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 1: then they say, but I flipped, and you you're willing 831 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:05,400 Speaker 1: to be open to this guy even though this person 832 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,800 Speaker 1: is saying something that is not what you currently believe 833 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: because he or she used to believe. That's quite fascinating. 834 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,759 Speaker 1: It's too late, but hopefully people will pay attention to that, 835 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,560 Speaker 1: so I know I only have you for a finite 836 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 1: amount of time. Let me get to my favorite questions 837 00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,880 Speaker 1: that I ask all my guests. Um. These are always 838 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,240 Speaker 1: interesting because I end up finding out a lot about 839 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,480 Speaker 1: people that that I wouldn't have found out otherwise. And 840 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,839 Speaker 1: let me start with what's the most important thing that 841 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 1: people don't know about your background? I had a chance 842 00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,960 Speaker 1: to play minor league baseball instead of go to school. 843 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: Really it was a center fielder, and I wanted to 844 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: be Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle. Uh. And the scout 845 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,000 Speaker 1: who was going to sign me said to me, tell me, 846 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,399 Speaker 1: are you could. Are you any at school? I said yes? 847 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,279 Speaker 1: He said good. You go to college? Yes? Could you 848 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: finish college? Yes? Go to school kid, really, go to 849 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: school kid. He recognized something that I couldn't hit a slider. 850 00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,520 Speaker 1: Truth is, I couldn't hit a slider. And he knew 851 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna go up very high in the mind. 852 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 1: All right, um, And he said go to your strength. Essentially, 853 00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,720 Speaker 1: he didn't say it in those words. Go to your strength. 854 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,320 Speaker 1: If you're if you're really good at school, go to 855 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:34,520 Speaker 1: your strength. Kid and Barry. If I hadn't taken that advice, 856 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:36,480 Speaker 1: I don't know where i'd be right now, but I 857 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't be in this room with you. It would you 858 00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,360 Speaker 1: would have taken a very different path on your career. 859 00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,920 Speaker 1: I had tremendous accuracy as a pitcher in high school, 860 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,760 Speaker 1: and I could throw a wicked fastball, no breaking ball 861 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:54,479 Speaker 1: that you can't throw a curve. You're done so similarly. Um, 862 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,840 Speaker 1: but that's interesting. I know, I what were you a 863 00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,640 Speaker 1: decent hitter? I was a good hitter and I could 864 00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,840 Speaker 1: get a jump on the ball, and but I, you know, 865 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: couldn't hit a slider. So tell us about some of 866 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:11,520 Speaker 1: your early mentors who influenced you, either academically or professionally. Yeah, 867 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, once again, I've got academic mentors. But I'm 868 00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:18,240 Speaker 1: going to go again to Buffet and Monker, who has 869 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:24,200 Speaker 1: just just been um, breathtaking lee good at showing me 870 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:33,560 Speaker 1: how uh success can be maintained and and augmented. Huh, 871 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:39,880 Speaker 1: that's that's fantastic. Um. What about psychologists? What psychologists influenced 872 00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:47,960 Speaker 1: your approach to thinking about academics, behavioral psychology, sociology. I'm 873 00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:52,240 Speaker 1: going to say condomen divers Key and Taylor. Could you 874 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,640 Speaker 1: could do worse? Um, I've had condiment in here. He's 875 00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:59,520 Speaker 1: delightful and nobody is more amusing than Dick Taylor. He's 876 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:04,400 Speaker 1: just resolutely charming. UM. Also a previous guest, we'll get 877 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,560 Speaker 1: a little social proof going. UM, tell us about books. 878 00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 1: What are some of your favorite books, be they fiction 879 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,680 Speaker 1: non fiction. I'm going to stay in the category of 880 00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:19,640 Speaker 1: of of of persuasion, social influence, compliance. Um. I would 881 00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:26,800 Speaker 1: start with Aristotle's rhetoric. First, anybody took a systematic look. Now, 882 00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 1: he was talking about orators. How do you make your 883 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,960 Speaker 1: case convincingly as an orator? That's all they had? Then 884 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,840 Speaker 1: you know? Uh? And then do you remember a book 885 00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 1: in the fifties by a guy named Vance Packard, Hidden Persuaders. 886 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,919 Speaker 1: I don't remember that book, but I'm familiar with the title. Yeah, 887 00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:49,840 Speaker 1: I don't remember me it was I was a kid 888 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,560 Speaker 1: at the time, but I remember reading it in college 889 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,560 Speaker 1: and thinking, this is the first time this guy really 890 00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:05,480 Speaker 1: looks at the advertising industry and why makes these commercial successful? Psychologically? 891 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:11,280 Speaker 1: What is it about the psychological buttons that are being pushed? 892 01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:15,080 Speaker 1: I remember something from that book, choosing mothers, Choose Jeff, 893 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:20,840 Speaker 1: that was one of the examples, and I have to imagine, um, 894 01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,080 Speaker 1: there are tons of other examples. Nobody systematically had looked 895 01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:28,240 Speaker 1: at the psychology behind that within the industry, not within no, 896 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,800 Speaker 1: not within the advertising against the wall. They were doing 897 01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,560 Speaker 1: the version of the A B tests without really controlling them, 898 01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,600 Speaker 1: but just trying things out to see what worked. And 899 01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:44,680 Speaker 1: any other books, well, you know, I like Dan Arielli's 900 01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:51,040 Speaker 1: Predictably Irrational, you know, terrific insight that even though we 901 01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: seem to be irrational, it's in a predictable way because 902 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:59,560 Speaker 1: these irrationalities are built into the way we function in 903 01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:03,320 Speaker 1: modern life. You keep naming, um, some of my white 904 01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 1: whales who I would love to get on. And then 905 01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:13,480 Speaker 1: there's Nudge. I love he Uh, that's a that's another 906 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:19,200 Speaker 1: interesting book. Nudge, speaking of influence apparently, has become very 907 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,520 Speaker 1: influential around the world. A lot of governments have adopted 908 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,320 Speaker 1: the precepts for that. Not only that, but so has 909 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:35,040 Speaker 1: so has corporate America recently, fundraisers, NGOs, even ordinary citizens 910 01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: because we've developed, um, this this new category called popular 911 01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:48,600 Speaker 1: behavioral science. So we're speaking to the people who's whose 912 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,760 Speaker 1: tax money has paid for the research they're entitled to 913 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,360 Speaker 1: know what we found out about them with their money, right. 914 01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,480 Speaker 1: So the one of the interesting things that we use 915 01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,200 Speaker 1: from NUDGE. Anytime there's a four oh one K account 916 01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:07,320 Speaker 1: that's opens, anytime a new hire happens, they automatically get 917 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,440 Speaker 1: a four oh one K and the choices for what 918 01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,360 Speaker 1: they're invested has already set to a default. So the 919 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,240 Speaker 1: money comes out of the paycheck automatically, it's invested automatically. 920 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,280 Speaker 1: If they want to change it, they have to actively 921 01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:22,200 Speaker 1: go out and change it. Because what we used, what 922 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,680 Speaker 1: Corporate America used to do is, yeah, you're eligible for 923 01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,800 Speaker 1: a four one K, fill out this paperwork. Once you 924 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:32,080 Speaker 1: do that, go pick some funds and some ungodly and 925 01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,360 Speaker 1: there's a match. It's free money. Here's six percent or 926 01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:38,080 Speaker 1: four and half the I think it's fifty something percent 927 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,640 Speaker 1: of the employees wouldn't do the paperwork. Who turns down 928 01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,200 Speaker 1: free money? It's it's shocking. Any other books before I 929 01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,920 Speaker 1: move on to my new That's a that's a nice collection, 930 01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:51,040 Speaker 1: to say the least. Um, what has changed in psychology 931 01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,440 Speaker 1: since you started the profession? What do you think is 932 01:02:53,480 --> 01:03:00,440 Speaker 1: the most significant um breakthroughs that have taken place? I'm 933 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,919 Speaker 1: going to go back to my previous answer and say 934 01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:08,640 Speaker 1: that behavioral science now, behavioral scientists and psychologists are now 935 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:13,080 Speaker 1: speaking to the public about their findings, the things that 936 01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:18,880 Speaker 1: actually could influence the outcomes of the everyday person, as 937 01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:23,920 Speaker 1: well as the corporate bottom line, the government's likelihood of 938 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:30,640 Speaker 1: getting a good a good policies, and fundraisers getting more donations. 939 01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:36,120 Speaker 1: So so you can so we're speaking with books, blogs, 940 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:41,680 Speaker 1: um uh, YouTube channels were now speaking to the people 941 01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,920 Speaker 1: who paid the bills for this research in the first 942 01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,320 Speaker 1: place and are entitled to know how this can benefit them. 943 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,040 Speaker 1: Tell us what you're really excited about right now. I 944 01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:58,280 Speaker 1: just UH with some colleagues, um answered a question that 945 01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,160 Speaker 1: I've always had about so shill proof. You know, this 946 01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,440 Speaker 1: is the idea that if the majority of people are 947 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,920 Speaker 1: doing something that this is the largest selling uh product, 948 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,280 Speaker 1: it causes people to want to say yes uh to 949 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:15,360 Speaker 1: the opportunity. There was this study in in in China. 950 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,880 Speaker 1: If you put an asterisk next to the items on 951 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,320 Speaker 1: a Chinese menu right that says this is one of 952 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:29,160 Speaker 1: our most popular items. Each one immediately becomes more popular, 953 01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,680 Speaker 1: whether or not it was beforehand or not. Right, you 954 01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,840 Speaker 1: just tell people, it becomes more popular. Now, what if 955 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,120 Speaker 1: you're not the most popular. What if you're a startup, 956 01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,960 Speaker 1: What if you don't have market share yet? But you've 957 01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,680 Speaker 1: got a great idea, right that UH is getting some traction, 958 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:55,240 Speaker 1: but it's far away from being social proof like UH idea. 959 01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,800 Speaker 1: Here's what we found. If you describe a trade end 960 01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:07,560 Speaker 1: in it, even though it's in the minority, if only 961 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,560 Speaker 1: thirty percent of people are choosing this right, and you 962 01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:16,320 Speaker 1: tell people that are doing this, we find you actually 963 01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:20,480 Speaker 1: get them less likely to choose it because they can 964 01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,080 Speaker 1: do the math. That means seventy percent are not. But 965 01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:30,120 Speaker 1: if you say trending now, twelve months ago were six 966 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:37,480 Speaker 1: months ago this month now, they jump on the bandwagon 967 01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:42,560 Speaker 1: because they see the trend is continuing. So that's how 968 01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:47,680 Speaker 1: we defeat the problem of low social proof by giving 969 01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:53,520 Speaker 1: them evidence of future social proof. That that is quite fascinating. UM, 970 01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,000 Speaker 1: tell us about a time you failed and what you 971 01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 1: learned from the experience. When I was first learning UH 972 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:04,760 Speaker 1: the strategies of influence professions and I was taking training, 973 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,320 Speaker 1: at the end of the training, I would say, look, 974 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:15,960 Speaker 1: I am not actually applying for a job at your place. UM, 975 01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm writing a book, and I would like for you 976 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,680 Speaker 1: to allow me to use the data that I uh 977 01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,080 Speaker 1: that I acquired in your training programs. They kicked me 978 01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:32,720 Speaker 1: out the door. I'm not surprised. This is proprietary information, 979 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,920 Speaker 1: and they thought I was an investigative reporter was going 980 01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:43,320 Speaker 1: to reveal all right. So after that I decided to 981 01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:47,400 Speaker 1: use my principles in making that request. I said, I'm 982 01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:53,840 Speaker 1: not um actually a prospective employee of your company. I'm 983 01:06:53,880 --> 01:07:00,240 Speaker 1: writing a book, and I promise you that I will 984 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:05,680 Speaker 1: send you an early copy of the book. I will 985 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,520 Speaker 1: pay you in the coin you are paying me. That 986 01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:13,000 Speaker 1: is information, so you know not only what works in 987 01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,160 Speaker 1: your industry, you'll know what works at all kinds of 988 01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:20,840 Speaker 1: industry before any of your rivals will. Right, That's one thing. 989 01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 1: The other thing I said was and I'm not just 990 01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:29,840 Speaker 1: writing a book. I'm a university professor and I'm learning 991 01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,640 Speaker 1: from you. And they would look at me and say, 992 01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:39,800 Speaker 1: you're a professor and your our student. You mean we're 993 01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,560 Speaker 1: teaching you And they would puff up their chests and say, 994 01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,440 Speaker 1: of course you get so. The quid pro quo and 995 01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,240 Speaker 1: the appeal to ego and appeal to what is it 996 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,880 Speaker 1: if you're the teacher. Teachers don't have proprietary information. What 997 01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:58,760 Speaker 1: the role of teacher is is to dispense information, and 998 01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:02,320 Speaker 1: so they did. That's fascinating. What do you do, uh 999 01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: for fun out of the office? What do you do 1000 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:08,040 Speaker 1: to relax or for enjoyment? I have three grandchildren who 1001 01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,200 Speaker 1: are the light of my life, and I spend time 1002 01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:14,680 Speaker 1: with one. One is a dancer, one's a soccer player, 1003 01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:18,479 Speaker 1: and one's loves horses, and so I go with them 1004 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:22,479 Speaker 1: to all of their activities, and I couldn't be happier. 1005 01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:25,840 Speaker 1: What sort of advice would you give to a millennial 1006 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:29,360 Speaker 1: or someone just beginning their career in psychology and a 1007 01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:35,280 Speaker 1: recent college graduate? What what would you suggest to them? Anyone? 1008 01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:41,680 Speaker 1: Here's what I would say, Going to every new situation 1009 01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:47,160 Speaker 1: where you don't know people and expect the best from them. 1010 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,680 Speaker 1: What that will allow you to do is to be generous. 1011 01:08:52,280 --> 01:09:01,400 Speaker 1: And there are two enormously consequential downstream effects of being generous. 1012 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:07,040 Speaker 1: One is people are generous back to you, right. The 1013 01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:11,960 Speaker 1: other is they like you and they want to do 1014 01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:16,240 Speaker 1: business with the people they like. Hmm. Interesting. And our 1015 01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:20,200 Speaker 1: final question, what do you know today about psychology that 1016 01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:23,040 Speaker 1: you wish you knew thirty years ago before you were 1017 01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,280 Speaker 1: had written Influence. You know, I'm gonna answer that by 1018 01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:28,840 Speaker 1: telling you a story of a friend of mine who 1019 01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:32,120 Speaker 1: had the question that I didn't know thirty years ago. 1020 01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,840 Speaker 1: He decided to study it as a marketing professor, and 1021 01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,400 Speaker 1: he said he wanted to find the single most effective 1022 01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:45,720 Speaker 1: influence approach, the one that would he should use in 1023 01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:48,680 Speaker 1: the situations that faced him, because that was the one 1024 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:53,200 Speaker 1: that was most powerful. And he went on two year 1025 01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,200 Speaker 1: search for this, and I saw him at a conference. 1026 01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,280 Speaker 1: He caught me by the elder. He said, Bob, I 1027 01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:04,240 Speaker 1: found it. I found owned the single most effective influence approach. 1028 01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:08,920 Speaker 1: It is not to have a single influence approach. That's 1029 01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:12,519 Speaker 1: a fools game to think that the same approach is 1030 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:17,200 Speaker 1: gonna work for all audiences and all circumstances at all times. No, 1031 01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,920 Speaker 1: you have to you have to size up that situation, 1032 01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:27,040 Speaker 1: those conditions, and then you move with the appeal that 1033 01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:31,439 Speaker 1: best fits the circumstances. Quite quite fascinating. Thank you, Bob 1034 01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,280 Speaker 1: for being so generous with your time. This was really, 1035 01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:39,600 Speaker 1: um quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Professor Bob Chaldini, 1036 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:45,360 Speaker 1: author of Influence and Persuasion persuasion and Yes, and numerous 1037 01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:51,040 Speaker 1: other papers about the fields of psychology, influence, and compliance. 1038 01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,639 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation and I have to think 1039 01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:56,840 Speaker 1: you did, be sure and look up an inch or 1040 01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:00,400 Speaker 1: down an inch on Apple iTunes overcast that you're Boomberg 1041 01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:03,280 Speaker 1: dot com wherever final podcasts are sold, and you could 1042 01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:06,240 Speaker 1: see our other I'm Gonna Bowlpark at A two D 1043 01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:10,280 Speaker 1: and fifty or so previous conversations. We love your comments, 1044 01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:14,360 Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast 1045 01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:17,600 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss if I 1046 01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,120 Speaker 1: did not thank the crack team that helps put together 1047 01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:25,920 Speaker 1: these weekly conversations. Attica val Brunn is our project manager, 1048 01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:30,719 Speaker 1: Medina Parwanna is our producer, Taylor Riggs is our booker. 1049 01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,800 Speaker 1: Michael Batnick is our head of research. I'm Barry Ridholts. 1050 01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,160 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.