1 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and this is United States of Kennedy, 2 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: and today we are talking about Lee Harvey Oswald. Sixty 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: years after the jfk assassination, the man arrested for killing him, 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: remains one of the most enigmatic figures of the twentieth 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: century and a lightning rod for conspiracy theorists everywhere. The 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: Warring Commission, the committee assembled to investigate the jfk assassination, 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: described Oswald as quote profoundly alienated from the world in 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: which he lived. Oswald had a tumultuous childhood. His father 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: died two months before he was born, and his mother 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: placed him in an orphanage when he was just three 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: years old. He attended twelve different schools as a child, 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: eventually joining the Marines when he was seventeen. Paradoxically, around 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: this time, he also developed an interest in communism and 16 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: the writings of Karl Marx. He eventually moved to the 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: Soviet Union, finding himself in the unusual position of being 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: an American expat living in Minsk during the height of 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: the Cold War. After moving back to the United States, 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: spending time in Dallas and the New Orleans, he became 21 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: even more isolated and his complicated and contradictory political beliefs 22 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: turned violent. At the mere age of twenty four, he 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: was arrested for killing JFK. Just two days later, as 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: he was being transferred from the city jail to the 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: county jail, a man named Jack Ruby shot him in 26 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: the stomach on live TV. Oswald died in the ambulance 27 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: on the way to Parkland Memorial Hospital, the same hospital 28 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: where JFK was pronounced dead two days earlier. Today, to 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: unpack Oswald's life and legacy, we are joined by Peter Savatnik, 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: senior editor at The Free Press and author of the 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: book The Interloper Lee Harvey Oswald Inside of the Soviet Union. Peter, 32 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. Great to be here. So 33 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: I want to get into Lee's early childhood and how 34 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: he got to be this kind of infamous figure. So 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: before we get into the specifics, tell me a little 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: bit about Lee Harvey Oswald's childhood. 37 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: It's a childhood that's characterized by constant instability movement. So 38 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: all the core constituents that go into a happy, healthy 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: childhood were mostly, if not entirely absent. A reliable mother, 40 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: reliable father, a single place where you might live, a 41 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: single school or maybe one or two or three schools 42 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: over the many years that you attend, a community friends, 43 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: all the things that make up a normal upbringing and 44 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: that provide kids with a sense of place in the world. 45 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: That's all absent in his case. And so there's this 46 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: bouncing around from Texas to Louisiana. They go up to 47 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: New York for a little while, they come back, and 48 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: there is this rhythm that emerge. Every year and a half, 49 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: there's like a major rupture, and everything's uprooted. This is 50 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: all because of his mother, I should add Marguerite, who 51 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: is not well, and it usually it's because of some 52 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: kind of romantic trouble or work trouble, and they're always 53 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: scrambling for money, and so everything is uprooted, and they 54 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: go and then they settle down, and this time he's 55 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: told everything's gonna be better, and it's gonna be calm 56 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: and good, and of course that never happens because his 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: mother is the same person always, the only person in 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: his life who provides some semblance of normal sior stability. 59 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: Is his older brother, but he's a good bit older 60 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: and he's really on his own, and so it's a lonely, sad, 61 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: parapatetic kind of lifestyle that unlikely to lead anything good 62 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: or productive. 63 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: And his father passes away a few months before he's born, right, right, 64 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: and then his mom ends up sending both his older 65 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: brothers to an orphanage and then eventually him, But he's 66 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: also in and out. I was unclear as to whether 67 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: he was living full time at the orphanage or he 68 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: was also living with his mother. 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: I think it's sort of a little bit ill defined 70 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: for a bit. You know, you have the one through 71 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 2: line in his life is people organizations kind of filling 72 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: in the gaps when his mother simply couldn't pull together. 73 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: That the orphanage plays that role. But I think it's 74 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: the same pattern always, which is the normal things that 75 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: we expect a mother or a father to do can't 76 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: be expected to be provided for. And so here is 77 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: this constant casting about, the scrambling, and this looking and 78 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: wondering about where am I, Who am I? Where do 79 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: I go next? And there's a kind of fear and 80 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: a kind of an angstiness about Oswald that you can 81 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 2: sense is developing by the time he's in his early teens. 82 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: Right, And so speaking of that, he's in his teens 83 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: in New York and he's of ostracize at school. Everyone 84 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: sees him as kind of odd. This is around when 85 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: he's starting to get interested in politics, and Marxist politics specifically. 86 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: So what is that like as a teen? How does 87 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: he get politicized? 88 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: You know, it is a little bit tricky to answer, 89 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: because Oswald attempted to impose some kind of order on 90 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: his own thinking his own evolution later when he was 91 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: in the Soviet Union and then actually. 92 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: After he left it. 93 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: So he's viewing himself through the prism of the previous 94 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: five to ten years, and he's doing so with a 95 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 2: very very limited understanding of the ideas politics, geopolitics that 96 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: he's immersed in, and with a very very limited understanding 97 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: of himself. So the way he tells it is, he 98 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: leaves high school, he joins the Marines early, and he's 99 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: initially very excited about being a part of the Marines. 100 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 2: That he's not so surprising that the father fee that 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: is the military, imposing order on his life but it 102 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: turns out that that's hard too, because there are expectations 103 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: baked into that agreement, to that obligation. You have to 104 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 2: get up at a certain time, you have to adhere 105 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 2: to a certain code of conduct, you have to respect 106 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,119 Speaker 2: your superior officers. All the things that go into making 107 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: a large organization like the Marines work with the punctilious 108 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: nature of any serious military organization. So it's very exacting, 109 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: and he just doesn't have the wherewithal, the determination, the 110 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: clarity of purpose to see it through. I think had 111 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: he been smarter, had he had somebody in his life 112 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: who had said to him, look, just get through this 113 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: chapter in your life, complete this one thing, and it 114 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: will give you an enormous sense of confidence. It will 115 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: be a boost that will set you on a different 116 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: course that might have led to a different outcome. But 117 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: there was no one like that in his life. And 118 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: so the same pattern ithres while he's in Japan, based 119 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: with the Marines overseas that he started to get into 120 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: a lot of trouble, and then inevitably he finds other outlets. 121 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: The way he describes is he comes into contact with 122 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: ideas emanating from the Soviet and communist worlds, and he's 123 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: fascinated by that, and in a way, they offer the 124 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: same thing that the Marines offered. It was this very 125 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: deadly serious mission. 126 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: It was very kind of manly. 127 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 2: It was tough, it was strong, but it was just new, 128 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: and it was something he hadn't yet messed up, and 129 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: so he could begin to fantasize about going to the 130 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: Soviet Union and recreating himself there in the way that 131 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: he had hoped to have recreated himself in the Marines. 132 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: And that's of course what he ultimately attempts to do. 133 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: One of the very obvious contradictions here with his ideology, 134 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: which I'm sure is due to the fact that he 135 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: is largely self educated and also just incredibly young. I mean, 136 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: he's seventeen when he joins the Marines, is this contradiction 137 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: between his espoused communist slash Marxist views and his desire 138 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: to be in the Marines, which you would think are 139 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: to opposite instincts, and he doesn't necessarily abandon one for 140 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: the other. In fact, when he's in the Marines, he 141 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: famously is reading Marx and talking to those around him 142 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: about Marxist philosophy and communism. So how did his superiors 143 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: even allow that to continue as long as it did, 144 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: and how does he reconcile those beliefs in his own head. 145 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: Among people in his immediate orbit, there was an awareness 146 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: that Oswald was into Communism, and they would poke fun 147 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 2: at him. There was some name calling, but he was 148 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: a grunt. Ultimately, you're free to read what you want 149 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: to read, you can say what you want to say, 150 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: as long as you play by the rules. You know, Okay, 151 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: you're entitled to believe crazy ideas. That was I think 152 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: the attitude that the Marines had. The problem is that 153 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: as he became more serious about his Marxism, and again 154 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: it's important to understand, as you know, he is self educated, 155 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: and I think that's a very generous way of putting it. 156 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: You know, he had these very kind of fragmented, distorted, 157 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: stereotypical kind of notions or cartoonish ideas about the Soviet 158 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: Union and communism. His understanding of history is very, very porous. 159 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 2: So all this winds up getting kind of retrofitted into 160 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: you know, this picture, this scenario that he's painting for himself, 161 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: and he's imagining himself in and going to and joining 162 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: and being a part of and so I think as 163 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: his gels in his head, and he becomes more serious 164 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 2: about it, and he begins to think about how this actually 165 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: might unfold concretely. Then it becomes harder and harder for 166 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: him to be a good marine, and ultimately he applies 167 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: to get discharged early, just like he left to join 168 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: the Marines early, and he's allowed to do so, not 169 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: by a lot, but it's sort of symbolic in a way. 170 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 2: He's so eager to leave, he's so eager to jumped 171 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: to his next phase, to escape to that that he 172 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: has to get out of wherever he is before he's 173 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: actually supposed to get out. 174 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, stay with us, 175 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: and we're back with United States of Kennedy. There seems 176 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: to be this pattern that he's always laser focused on 177 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: a specific goal, and that interest lasts for maybe one 178 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: to two years, and then he sort of moves on 179 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: to the next thing. And I think that can be 180 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: a political commitment, it can be an obsession with one 181 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: specific figure. It can be an obsession with one specific 182 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: location that he wants to move to because he feels 183 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: like there would be a better life there. And again 184 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: something I kept going back to as I was reading 185 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: about him, is just like the jfk assassination happened when 186 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: he was only twenty four. All of this is as 187 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: he's basically, you know, what we would think of as 188 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: college age, which is when people think of him as 189 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: this mastermind or radicalized. But you know, it's important to 190 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: keep that in mind. But he's like eighteen, nineteen, twenty 191 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: years old. So he leaves the Marines, and then, of course, 192 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: and this is what your book is about, is his 193 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: time in the Soviet Union, which happens right after he 194 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: leaves the Marine. So obviously, for an American to manage 195 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: being an expat over there at the time, in the 196 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: peak of the Cold War was an incredibly strange thing. 197 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: So what was the process like by which he went 198 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: from being an ex marine in the US to going 199 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: to Moscow? 200 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: So you're absolutely right, it was very strange. What Oswald 201 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: didn't appreciate is that the Soviets had seen this before 202 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: many times. They'd been seeing it for decades, and he 203 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: was by then a cliche that the disaffected, alienated young 204 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: American who is sort of ideologically excited, feverish and is 205 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: lost at home is a failure at home and thinks 206 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: that in the Soviet Union he will recreate himself, he 207 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 2: will become the man he's supposed to be. And so 208 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: by the time he gets there, recall that it's the 209 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: late fifties, Joseph Stalin has been dead at this point 210 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: for six years. Nikity Koushov is the leader. They're unsurprised 211 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: by Oswald. The only question that the KGB had for 212 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: him or about him was is he useful to us 213 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: at all? Does he know anything? And Oswald seems to 214 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: sense this or know this, and he makes a big 215 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 2: point when he's interviewed by the KGB that he was 216 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 2: at this base in Japan where there were the U 217 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: two spy planes. And as you may know, the U 218 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: two spy planes at the time were this top secret 219 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: program that the Eisenhower administration had been running capturing very 220 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: sensitive information in the Soviet Union. We had denied that 221 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: we were doing it, Soviets knew that we were doing it, 222 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: but publicly weed that we were doing it. The problem 223 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 2: from the Soviet vantage point was that they didn't have 224 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: any missiles that were powerful enough to reach the spy planes. 225 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: So he had all these these syplanes that were flying 226 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: in a very very high altitude of very powerful cameras, 227 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: and the Soviets couldn't take them out. And so the 228 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: question that the KGB had it was very simple, was 229 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: did Oswald know anything that would have helped them in 230 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 2: any way build a missile or take down these spy planes? 231 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: And it quickly became abundantly clear to them that he 232 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: knew nothing. They knew more about the spy planes than 233 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: he did. And so he's there for a grand total 234 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: of six days. 235 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: When they tell him you're going to have to go. 236 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: They don't want him there because he's a liability, he's unstable, 237 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: and they've seen this before. They know that he's not 238 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: going to be useful to them, and he's just going 239 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: to be a high visibility kind of problem. An American 240 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: ex marine in Moscow is a problem. And so what 241 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 2: does Otispal do? Not Surprisingly, he goes back to his hotel. 242 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: He attempts to kill himself, but he does a very 243 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: half hearted job and he sort of slits his wrists. 244 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: He winds up at his hospital. 245 00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: I've been there. 246 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 2: It's just north of the center of Moscow. He's treated 247 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: and the Russians are kind of not sure what to do, 248 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: because he's attempted to kill himself, but in an attempt 249 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 2: that hard, and so the KGB when they find him, 250 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: he's been bleeding seriously, but he's not actually on the 251 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: precipice of death. He's just he needs to be seen 252 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: by a doctor and patched up. But he's you know, 253 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: more predictable ways of killing oneself, and Oswald didn't avail 254 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 2: himself with those ways. So anyway, he's treated and then 255 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: he's told, okay, fine, you want to stay, you can stay. 256 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 2: And then they do what they've done many times before 257 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: with disaffected Westerners who have come to the Soviet Union 258 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: hoping to recreate themselves. They send them to some boring, 259 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: out of the way provincial town and they say, okay, 260 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: you want the Soviet experience, We're going to give you 261 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: the Soviet experience. And they send him to Minsk, which 262 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: is the quintessential Soviet city in the sense that had 263 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: been utterly demolished during the war. During World War Two, 264 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: it was a disaster. I think more people were murdered 265 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: in Mints between the Nazis and the Soviets than possibly 266 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: in the other city in the Soviet Union. But it 267 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: was an utterly just destroyed place. And at the time, 268 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: remember we're only fourteen years removed from the end of 269 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: the war, so it's still in the midst of rebuilding, 270 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: very much so. And they send him there and he's 271 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: put up in this actually by Soviet standards, in a 272 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 2: very nice apartment. 273 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: He has it to himself, which was very unusual. 274 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: And he's given me a job at a radio and 275 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: television factory, and he's now a member of the proletariat. 276 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: So you're saying that this is sort of a common 277 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: archetype that the KGB was used to. At the same time, 278 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: he is an oddity on the eyes of an average American. 279 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: And I know that while he was in Min's tea, 280 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: gave interviews to journalists in the States that were doing 281 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: stories about him. So just how common was it, like, 282 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: were there was there even if it was small and 283 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: expat quote unquote community there or was it literally just 284 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: one person here and there that had been placed by 285 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: the KGB as a sort of oddity. 286 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's a good question because it was very 287 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: common in the immediate wake of the revolution for the intellectuals, 288 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: the kind of celebrity thinkers and writers and artists to 289 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: go to the Soviet Union. People like Bertrand Russell would 290 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: go there and write glowingly about the new chapter in 291 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: history that was being written, the erection of Homo Sovieticus, 292 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: and all this these grand philosophizing about the great accomplishment 293 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: that was the Soviet Union, that begins to taper off 294 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: in the thirties, when the true nature of Stalinism, which 295 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: should have been readily apparent, becomes unavoidably apparent. And then 296 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: of course there's the famines in Ukraine and mass death. 297 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: There's the Great Terror in nineteen thirty seven nineteen thirty eight. 298 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: So by the time we get to the war, the 299 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: Soviet Union has lost much of its luster among left 300 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: wing intelligensia, not so much because they'd given up on 301 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: radical leftism or even Stalinism for that matter, but because 302 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: we sort of politically unfeasible. You couldn't really be viewed 303 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: as being aligned with Joseph Stalin, even if you quietly 304 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: thought that he was doing the right thing. And so 305 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 2: then there's the war, and then there's this shift away 306 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: toward looking for other causes movements to support. There's the 307 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: promise of malice China, and then of course right around 308 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: the time I should say that Oswald goes to Soviet Union, 309 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 2: there's the emergence of Castro and the promise of Cuba, 310 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: which of course Oswald, after he goes back to the 311 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 2: United States, will become involved in. But the point is 312 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: that by the time Oswald got there, not only was 313 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: he a cliche in the sense that the KGB was 314 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: familiar with this type, but he was a cliche whose 315 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: time had passed. So there's something doubly pathetic about the 316 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: whole thing. Yes, a lot of people used to do 317 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: what you were doing, and no one's doing it anymore 318 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: because they all know that this is a joke, and 319 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: even the sovietsknew that. 320 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: By the time he was there, I think there were only. 321 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: A handful of American expats were living in the Soviet Union. 322 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: I think it might have been no more. 323 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: Than ten or fifteen, I think at the most. 324 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: Scattered across the whole country. So while he was in 325 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, he in fact got married with a 326 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: woman there, Marina Persokova. They started a family together. The 327 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: relationship was, from what I understand, fraud. There was a 328 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: lot of yelling. He had anger issues. I think, you know, 329 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: he's this perpetual outsider. So I imagine there's also just 330 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: a daily frustration with not having community and not being 331 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: understood and trying to square his politics with his personal 332 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: life and whatever else. And from what I understand, his 333 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: life starts to devolve a bit in the Soviet Union, 334 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: and that coincides with him becoming disillusioned with the politics 335 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: that he thought he was moving there to embrace. 336 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. Look, there's a pattern here. 337 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 2: The Soviet Union, like the Marines, had a certain rhythm 338 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: and a set of expectations and an unspoken code of 339 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: condat to many ways, is harder than the Marines because 340 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: the rules were probably less transparent. You just had to 341 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: kind of learn them. That was the role of social 342 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: cues and just being attuned and empathetic and all that. 343 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 2: And as always, Oswald has this impossible time adapting. So 344 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: it's always that he's fascinated by the novelty of at 345 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: all and he loves that he's the new person in there, 346 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: excited about him, And in the beginning he has a 347 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: hard time in his diary containing his excitement about all 348 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: the girls want to talk to him. He had not 349 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: had much in the way of personal life ever, or 350 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: an romantic life, and so this was all just already 351 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: new and exciting to him. But then over time, as 352 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 2: with the Marines, now you're here, you have a job, 353 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: you have an apartment, you develop personal commitments and obligations, 354 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 2: and you have to do certain things and you have 355 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: to be on time and do a good job and 356 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: all those things. And he has an impossible time with that. 357 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 2: And so I think with Rina, like the really fascinating 358 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: thing is that she, and generally speaking, like the Soviet 359 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: Union offered him, much like the Marines did, a very 360 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 2: good alternative life. Had he stuck with the Marines, he 361 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: would have had a possibly very very meaningful, constructive life. 362 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: Had he stuck with the Soviet Union, had he actually 363 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: been able to carry through on his imaginings, he would 364 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: have had a very comfortable life. He would have had 365 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: this apartment, which by Soviet standards is very nice. He 366 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: would have had a pension, he would have had decent healthcare, 367 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: again by their standards, not by ours. He would have 368 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: had a datcha. Probably, he would have had a network 369 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: in friends. It would have actually been a not that 370 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: bad way to go if you're somebody who's a very 371 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: very mediocre intelligence with very few prospects back in the 372 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: United States. It's not a bad thought, like, Okay, you're 373 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: not going to do much with your life, probably in America, 374 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: so why not be a technician at this factory in 375 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: Minsk where you're going to be taken care of, and 376 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,479 Speaker 2: you'll have this community and a nice wife and he 377 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 2: ultimately has two daughters. That would have been a very 378 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: nice way for him to have gone about living. And 379 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: he probably would have made it to about the nineteen 380 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 2: nineties and that would have been it. But again, he 381 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 2: can't see things to their natural end or their fruition, 382 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 2: and so yes, at a certain point he just feels 383 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: this again, it's the same uncontainable sort of need to 384 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: get out. And as you probably know, he goes back 385 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 2: to the US embassy. He had gone there initially when 386 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 2: he came to Moscow, and he had very proudly and 387 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: defiantly thrown down his passport and said, you know, I'm 388 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: done with this, and he told the Americans and you 389 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: can throw this out, and the consular officer wisely kept 390 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 2: his passport and said to himself, what for. The KGB 391 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: also knew, which is that you're not going to make 392 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: it here as long as you think, and the kind 393 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 2: of person who is driven to come here in the 394 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: first place is the kind of person who's going to 395 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 2: have an impossible time doing what I just mapped out, 396 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 2: like actually building a life here. Eventually he sheepishly goes 397 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 2: back to the embassy in Moscow. He's able to engineer 398 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: a return home to the United States. Then he starts 399 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 2: making these kind of crazy requests that he asked the 400 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: Navy to change his honorable discharge to a just discharge. 401 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: The Navy, of course includes the Marines, so he was 402 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 2: overseen by the Navy. They had made his honorable discharge 403 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: discharge when they found out that he defected to the 404 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: Soviet Union, and now he's requesting it they change it 405 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: back to honorable discharge, which the Navy not unreasonably or 406 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: surprisingly says no to. But ultimately he's able to go 407 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 2: back to America. 408 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: It seems also to your earlier point about how he's 409 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: not ever quite fitting in, he's specifically drawn to these 410 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: collectivist communities, whether it's the Marines or the Soviet I mean, 411 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: I realized those are, you know, in many ways opposite, 412 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: but these communities where the whole you know, your self 413 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: determination depends on being part of the collective rather than 414 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: living in a sort of more individualistic environment. And so 415 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: that really clashes with his more renegade instincts because he 416 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: wants to always be breaking the rules in some way, 417 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: and specifically in environments like this, that's the one thing 418 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: you can't do. You have to buy by the rules. Okay. 419 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: So he goes back to America, and Marina, from what 420 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: I understand, really did not want to move back to America. 421 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: So finally he convinces her they moved to America. And 422 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: where do they initially land. 423 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 2: They initially go to New York, but then they find 424 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: their way to Dallas, where he's from. And it turns 425 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: out that there's actually a rather sizable Russian xpac community 426 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: in Dallas. These are not Soviet emigres. These are people 427 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: who come from the Russian emmigrat world, and so they 428 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: are for the most part, very anti Soviet, anti Marxists. 429 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 2: But he kind of insinuates himself into that community and 430 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 2: they take in both of them, especially Marina because she 431 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 2: can speak Russian, she's one of them. And he quickly 432 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: finds himself on the periphery and in a way, this 433 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 2: is the hardest chapter of his life. The advantage of 434 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 2: the previous chapters, the Marines and the Soviet Union, is 435 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: that they were very regimented and very clear, you know, 436 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: sort of expectations about what he had to do to 437 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 2: get by from one day to the next. Now he 438 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: really has to rebuild a life all by himself, and 439 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: he has to concoct out of nothing a future. And 440 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 2: as you said, he kind of took to these large 441 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: collectivists enterprises. He talked about being drawn to collectivism. I 442 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: don't actually think that was it. I think it was 443 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 2: more the maleness, the manliness of both these enterprises. It 444 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: was the thing that's missing right always in his life, 445 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: which is a man, the father figure. And it's sad, 446 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: right because he's so obviously looking for structure and that 447 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 2: kind of brick wall who's meant to hem in all 448 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: of your kind of worse impulses, all the things that 449 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 2: kind of lead young men astray. He's always looking for 450 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 2: that kind of structure and he wants it, but he 451 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: doesn't how to live in that world. So this thing 452 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: that he craves is this one thing that he can't 453 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 2: actually he doesn't how to make sense of it or 454 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 2: coexist with it. And so he comes back to the 455 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 2: United States, to Texas, and he's really lost, and that's 456 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: clear almost from the beginning, and that's how he falls 457 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 2: into Cuba activism stuff, the castro stuff, and it's what 458 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 2: leads to this very kind of frenetic bouncing around. There's 459 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 2: essentially no stability or happiness at home like that. They 460 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 2: just there's nothing about their life there that sounds all 461 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 2: that happy or meaningful. It doesn't feel very constructive, as 462 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: if there's much of a future in. 463 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: Mind, right. And this is also from what I understand. 464 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: When his introduction of political violence happens, the possibility of 465 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: violence more clearly becomes a parent. So, for those who 466 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: might not know, JFK was not the first assassination attempt 467 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: while he was in Dallas, I believe he planned to 468 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: and failed to assassinate a different American politician, which is 469 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: General Edwin Walker, who was a rising right wing figure 470 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: around that time. Can you tell us just a little 471 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: bit about him and what kind of prompted the obsession. 472 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, it's unclear exactly what prompted the 473 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 2: obsession because he doesn't talk about this much. He wrote 474 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 2: a few things here and there, but you're working with 475 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: very little, and certainly with Oswald, there's not much in 476 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: the way, there's almost zero introspection. So in all the 477 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: things he writes down, his kind of ramblings, he does 478 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: what very average people without any kind of insight into 479 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: themselves tend to do, which is he tends to abstract 480 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: and talks about these kind of grand processes and America 481 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 2: and the Soviet Union and Marxism and militarism, but without 482 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 2: really understanding at all what's driving him, why he is 483 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 2: so compelled by these various angers, these furies that shouldn't 484 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: really animate him that much, without thinking about the practical 485 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: or concrete implications of what he's thinking about or doing. 486 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: But there's a kind of impracticality and this sort of 487 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 2: hyperventilating and this proto activism that doesn't really have much 488 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: in the way of shape or definition with regard to 489 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 2: the general He tries to kill him, he fails, escapes, 490 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: They don't really come close to finding him. It's not 491 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: clear who's responsible. At least he's not implicated as far 492 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: as I know. And that comes shortly before the Kennedy assassination. 493 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: Right, and there would seem to be a contradiction there 494 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: because this General Walker was staunchly anti Kennedy and was 495 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: the sort of like right wing anti communist figure. So 496 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: if anything, it would make more sense for that to 497 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: be a huge villain for Oswald. 498 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: I was opposed like the Democrat Kennedy. 499 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, obviously it's more complicated than that. But 500 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: it seems like this guy is a more natural enemy, 501 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: I guess, is what I'm saying. 502 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: I think that's a distinction that would have been lost 503 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 2: on Oswald, right. I think he probably viewed the General 504 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: much the way he viewed the president. Look, these are 505 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: all part of the American imperial power structure. It doesn't 506 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: really matter like some party designation. 507 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't. They're all war criminals, they're all villains. 508 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: They're all you know, kind of this kind of monochromatic 509 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 2: brushstroke approach to American political life. 510 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 511 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: this break, and we're back with United States of Kennedy. 512 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: And to your point about the lack of introspection, from 513 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: what I understand his diary, which he called the Historic Diary, 514 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: is that right, there's a sense of remove he thinks 515 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: of himself as like a big thinker that is able 516 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: to think in broad strokes about large power structures without 517 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: necessarily placing himself within them. And maybe I'm wrong, but 518 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: does it come from a personal stake of I am 519 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: part of the proletariat and I am fighting against I 520 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: think that's a bit more like he's a political commentator 521 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: commenting at a remove or something. 522 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 2: It's more that there's no really kind way to put this. 523 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: It's stupid, it's ignorant. It's utterly devoid of any kind 524 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: of intellectual depth, for sure, But just as important, there's 525 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: no insight into himself. There's no awareness of you know, 526 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: why do these things make me feel the way they do? 527 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: It's a good question, right, like why do certain political 528 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: opinions or ideas, words, statements, books, whatever evokes such strong 529 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: feelings in me? And how do I respond to those feelings? 530 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: How do I act on them? What's the best way 531 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: to do that? If you like something, you might talk 532 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: about these things. You might share these ideas. If you 533 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: don't like them, conversely, you might say why you don't 534 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: like them. But of course it's meant to be civilized, 535 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: and there's meant to be a discourse and a conversation, 536 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: and he's incapable of all that. And really there is 537 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: with Oswald like a very is a very very limited 538 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: vernacular when it comes to just you know, being able 539 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: to communicate any kind of ideas or anything like that. 540 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: And so yes, there's this sort of silly abstraction that 541 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: takes place constantly with him. I think that that's like 542 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: what you're talking about, Like the Historic Diary is just 543 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: this sort of like, yes, I'm commenting on not just 544 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: the world but history with the capital H in these 545 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: grand Hegelian terms and kind of framings. And that's risable, yeah, 546 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: which is another part of the male sort of energy 547 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: of this whole thing. It's very like you know guy 548 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: in college that loves reading political biographies of great men 549 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: or something. 550 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: That's right. 551 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: It's every disaffected eighteen year old who's been exposed to 552 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,479 Speaker 2: Nietzsche for a week, he's had a lecture or two, 553 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: or read a fragment of Thus spoke Gar Sustra, and 554 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: it's decided now that he's going to emulate the Nietzschean 555 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 2: style or he's going to start writing in these kind 556 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: of big german either idealistic or philosophical terms, it's laughable. 557 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 2: These philosophers had enormous quantities of education behind them. It 558 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: might be dead wrong about all kinds of things, but 559 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 2: they didn't actually just write from a position of ignorance. 560 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: And what Oswald does, which is much like I think 561 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 2: the disaffected eighteen year old who hopefully kind of grows 562 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: out of this after his second or third week in class, 563 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 2: what he does is he just emulates. And there's lots 564 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: of sort of grandiosity and silliness that I think became 565 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 2: clear after the assassination when they reviewed all of his 566 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: writings and ramblings were not the work of a serious man. 567 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: It's also he is obviously isolated and not in a 568 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: college environment where he can bounce ideas off of people 569 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: and be in a discussion based as himinar where he's 570 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: saying something but then being questioned either by a professor 571 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: based I mean. It is a classic lone wolf type thing. 572 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: So after the botched assassination attempt, his life with Marina 573 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: is not going well. He's sort of at another low point. 574 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: They end up moving to New Orleans, and the missing 575 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: link with all his various alliances with Marxism and Communism 576 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: at the time is of course Cuba and Castro in Cuba, 577 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: and so when he goes to New Orleans, there's a 578 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: big Cuban community there. There is obviously a lot of 579 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: anger at Castro, but then there's an equal amount of 580 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: anger at JFK. This is right after Bay of Pigs. 581 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: There's a lot of political activity happening around anti Castro sentiment, 582 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: and this is, in classic Oswold fashion, an environment that 583 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: inspires him to get involved and create even more political agitation. 584 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: So what are his surroundings like and how does he 585 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: sort of fit into them? And I should say that 586 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: another reason why this is an especially interesting part of 587 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: the story is because so much of the conspiracy thinking 588 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: around the JFK sas Nation has to do with his 589 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: era living in New Orleans and with his various connections 590 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: to either, depending on who you ask, pro Castro or 591 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: anti Castro groups. I mean, we watch for this podcast, 592 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: we watch the Oliver Stone JFK film, The worst thing 593 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: ever made about this as an issue. I mean, it's 594 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: very tough because it's such a great movie just in turn, 595 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: like on a technical level, but it makes you feel 596 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: absolutely insane after you're done watching it. All of this 597 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: is to say apologist to Oliver Stone, But what actually 598 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: happened during the New Orleans years. 599 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: I think what a lot of people do, this includes 600 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: Oliver Stone, is they lose themselves in the details and 601 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: they lose sight of the bigger picture and what's actually 602 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: happening here. They remind me a great deal of the 603 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 2: conspiracy theorist they used to run into with the National 604 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: Archives when I came back from the former Story Union, 605 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 2: I should say, and mins when I was researching Oswald's story, 606 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: and I came back and I was doing a lot 607 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: of archival research in the National Archives just outside DC, 608 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: and you go there and there are always these guys 609 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: who are kind of aging, usually aging boomers, and they 610 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: cut their glasses low, and they've got these like big 611 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: reams of books, and then they have the highlighters and 612 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: they're circling it every saca's still gas and say aha, 613 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 2: as if they've just unlocked the key to the deep state. 614 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: And there are all kinds of problems with their radiocination. 615 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: You might say. 616 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 2: The number one thing is they immerse themselves in the 617 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: mutia and they think that they're proving something, that they've 618 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 2: got the goods, and in so doing they lose sight 619 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 2: of what's actually happening. So why did he go to 620 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: New Orleans? Well, he knew Louisiana, he had spent half 621 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: his childhood in Louisiana. Why did he get involved in 622 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: the castro Cuba Because he had just come back from 623 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union and it was adjacent to where he 624 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: had been. He was not recruited, he was not especially 625 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: successful in doing pro castro work in New Orleans. It 626 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 2: was just another cause to latch onto. It's something to 627 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: be a part of. He's always looking for things to 628 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: latch onto. My book is called the Interloper. He's trying 629 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: to break into spaces that he's not suited for, that 630 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 2: he doesn't know how to be a part of or 631 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: adapt to, and so this becomes his last effort. He 632 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: recognizes that, which is why he ultimately goes just shortly 633 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 2: before the assassination. Right, there's this last ditch effort. He 634 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: realizes on some level he's got to go back to 635 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union. This is a huge mistake. So what 636 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 2: does he do. He goes to Mexico with the hope 637 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: that that's going to lead him to Cuba, with the 638 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: ultimate expectation that will lead him back to Moscow or 639 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: to the Soviet Union, and of course the Cubans the 640 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 2: Soviets are saying to themselves and to him, we're done 641 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: with you. And so he winds up being forced to 642 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: go back to the United States. And now it's like 643 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 2: you've seen in Star Wars where they're in the trash 644 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: compactor and the walls are kind of, you know, closing in, 645 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 2: and he's kind of bouncing back and forth, and the 646 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 2: oxygen is disappearing, and there's a desperation and you can 647 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: feel it mounting in sort of his movements and his 648 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: ramblings and his conversations, his interactions with Marina and other 649 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 2: people in the Russian XBAC community. And so the assassination 650 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: viewed through that lens is just this kind of explosive 651 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: sort of need to extricate himself from himself. I mean, 652 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: it's suicidal on some level. I don't know that he 653 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 2: thought through things. 654 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: To that degree. 655 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 2: I don't know that he actually expected that he would 656 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: be detained and then he would be shot by Jack 657 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 2: Ruby or some other very angry Kennedy supporter, But on 658 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 2: some level he must have understood that if you kill 659 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: an American president your life as you've known it is over. 660 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 2: And this is true if you kill anyone, but especially 661 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 2: if you kill an American president. And I think that's 662 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 2: what he wanted. 663 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 3: It was an act of self destruction in some way. Absolutely, 664 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 3: And of course it has to have this homicidal rage 665 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 3: baited into it, because there is a lot of rage 666 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 3: directed at the whole world, because really, like the subject 667 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 3: of all this is why can I not fucking fit in? 668 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 3: Why is it that everywhere I go I fail? Everywhere 669 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 3: I go? I am an outsider. I'm always an introloper. 670 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 3: I'm always the guy who's breaking in. I'm never the 671 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 3: person who just joins, adapts and becomes. And the realization 672 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: I think that's percolating, that that's building up in his 673 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 3: head over these many years, is because you don't have 674 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 3: the equipment, that sort of psychic infrastructure to do this. 675 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 3: You don't know how to do this. So the assassination 676 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 3: is really this sort of homicidal, suicidal explosion that amounts 677 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 3: to a great escape from a very very unhappy life. 678 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 679 00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: this break, and we're back with United States of Kennedy. 680 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting you say that there's a lamenting 681 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: of not fitting in, because in fact his behavior is 682 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: not of someone who is trying to fit in. I mean, 683 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: just looking at his time in New Orleans, as I said, 684 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: there was a lot of anti Castro sentiment and organizing whatever, 685 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: and his response to that is going out and passing 686 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: around pro Castro flyers, one of the most fringe things 687 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: you could be doing at that time. 688 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 2: I think that by that point he was spiraling rapidly. 689 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 2: But if you go back to Osbald's time in Minsk, 690 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,479 Speaker 2: there's a for him, a rather long period in there, 691 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: about a year where he really begins to immerse himself 692 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 2: in the very best that Mince has to offer for 693 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 2: someone of his education and background. And I spent a 694 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: lot of time when I was researching book, and he 695 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,720 Speaker 2: figures in the book with his close friend Ernst the Tobitz, 696 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 2: who almost certainly was informing on him was probably, I'm 697 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 2: guessing I couldn't pinpoint this, but I'm pretty sure it 698 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 2: was a kgb asset who was, you know, strategically planted 699 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 2: to collect information. They were all collecting information on him, 700 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 2: but I think the Tobotz was one of their most 701 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: valuable assets, possibly Marina as well, but he wanted to. 702 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 2: It's clear from his interactions, from the parties he attended 703 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: and the dinners he attended, and the life he found 704 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: himself in, there's this clear desire to be a part 705 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: of this world. That's why I focus on the Soviet 706 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 2: period because I think it's where he'd really tried and 707 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 2: really came closest to transcending himself, to adapting and to 708 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: building something. But he fails, and that failure I think 709 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 2: is truly devastating to Oswald. He doesn't recognize it, he 710 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 2: doesn't have the capacity to see what that means. But 711 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 2: it's a profound failure because what it really means is 712 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: that you're always going to be an interloper, You're always 713 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 2: going to be a failure, like a deeply failed man. 714 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: And I think that's how I would view then the 715 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 2: chapter in New Orleans, which by that point just this 716 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: kind of desperate, very end of his life again, casting 717 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 2: about trying to find some l like grasping for something 718 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:16,760 Speaker 2: to escape yourself. 719 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm conscious of time, and I want to get 720 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: to the post assassination chapter of all of this, which 721 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: is what most people know about him. He assassinates JFK. 722 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: If you believe the official narrative, and if you're not, 723 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: Oliver ston't, then he is immediately killed as he's being 724 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: transferred to a different facility by Jack Ruby. I want 725 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: to at least spend a little time talking about the 726 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: various conspiracies surrounding him. To me, the two most repeated 727 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: themes are either some sort of collusion with the CIA 728 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: or some sort of collusion with organized crime. What was 729 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: the status of those two theories? I mean, what are 730 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: the big smoking guns that people saw that they became 731 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: fascinated with and led them down these rabbit holes. Well, 732 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: there are the things that people talk are a lot, 733 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: the grassy knoll and. 734 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 2: The There's been lots of discussion about the physics of 735 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 2: the bullet, especially the second bullet, and the bruit tape. 736 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,479 Speaker 2: And the thing is that there are I think I forget. 737 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 2: I think it's six or seven million documents in the 738 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 2: Kenning assassination archive. You can extract from the archive any 739 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 2: theory you want. You can piece together any caatenation of 740 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 2: data points to construct whatever evil plot, whatever story you 741 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,720 Speaker 2: want to imagine. I think that, as always, the question 742 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 2: is why do people feel compelled to do so. 743 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: Why do they feel. 744 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 2: As if they have to find the reason behind the 745 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 2: reason when it's so obvious that it is Oswald. Yes, 746 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 2: there were confusions about the shooting. There are always confusions. 747 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 2: There were sloppinesses or mistakes made by the Warren Commission. 748 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 2: There always are, and I think in the case of 749 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 2: the Warren Commission, they made some serious mistakes, but we 750 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 2: ignore Auckham's. The simplest explanation is the likeliest, and there's very, 751 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: very little reason to think that Oswald is not simply 752 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 2: the lone gunman who killed JFK. And what I find 753 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 2: more troubling is that so many Americans, and of course 754 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 2: this has become more of a problem in recent years, 755 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 2: feel compelled to believe that he could not have acted alone, 756 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 2: or that it was not him, or that this is 757 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 2: all just part of a big grouse, and that we're 758 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 2: all being duped, we're all being manipulated by secret clandestine powers. 759 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 2: These are all just unverifiable statements that no one can disprove, 760 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: but no one can prove. 761 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: So I was watching the PBS Frontline from many years 762 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: ago about Lee Harvey Oswald and one of the first 763 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: talking heads, and I wish I remembered who it was. 764 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: Describes him as that famous Churchill quote, a mystery shrouded 765 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,399 Speaker 1: and an enigma wrapped in a puzzle. And I think 766 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: your book goes a long ways into demystifying him. But 767 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, are there still mysteries or unknown elements that 768 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: to this day you're like, God, I wish I had 769 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: that piece of the puzzle. No. 770 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 2: I mean, look, it would be great if there were 771 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: any kind of record of his thoughts about American politics, 772 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 2: to say nothing of John F. Kennedy or White House policy. 773 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 2: But that's a whole level of sophistication that was completely 774 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 2: missing from his. 775 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: His So there isn't I mean, in terms of JFK. 776 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: Like just at the most basic level. He never expressed 777 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: an opinion about JFK. No. 778 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 2: In fact, the little we have according to Tetovitz, he 779 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 2: said one or two things that were praiseworthy of Kennedy. 780 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 2: I think it probably viewed Kennedy as part of this 781 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 2: American imperial blob and party affiliation policy. This is all 782 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 2: silly stuff for people who tell themselves lies about the 783 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 2: American hedgemon. There's no ability to distinguish or make thoughtful 784 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 2: distinctions between what one person says or believes in another 785 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,720 Speaker 2: and policy distinctions. It's just assumption about the inherent and obvious, 786 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 2: unmistakable evil of America. All right, Well, I really know 787 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 2: what to do with that, because you know, it's not 788 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,240 Speaker 2: as if this hatred resides atop a deep understanding of 789 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 2: American history, of America's role in the world, none of that. 790 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 2: It's so obviously personal mission is so obviously meant to 791 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,439 Speaker 2: compensate for all the many things missing in his life, 792 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 2: starting with a father and then immediately followed by a 793 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 2: reliable mother. And you know, the very sad fact of 794 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 2: the matter is nothing was ever going to make up 795 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 2: for that, nothing was going to be able to help 796 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 2: Oswald dig his way out of a whole. And so 797 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 2: I think you're left with this very sad, angry, rudderless 798 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 2: man who is consumed by these imaginings and rages and 799 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 2: furies that are profoundly ill informed or ignorant, but are 800 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 2: meant to compensate for or make up for the gargantuan 801 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 2: whole in his soul. 802 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 1: All right, So maybe maybe less Marx and more Freud 803 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: would have benefited him at Yeah, just like a few novels. Yeah, Peter, 804 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. 805 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: So that's it for this week's episode. United States of 806 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: Kennedy is hosted by me George Severes. Original music by 807 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: Joshua Topolski. Production help by Carmen lorenz Our. Executive producer 808 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,800 Speaker 1: is Jenna Cagel, Research by Dave Rus and Austin Thompson, 809 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: edited by Graham Gibson, and mixed by Doug Bain. United 810 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Subscribe 811 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: and follow United States of Kennedy for all Things Kennedy 812 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,240 Speaker 1: each week.