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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerwald.

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Speaker 1: We have a new season coming up for you in April,

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Speaker 1: and in the meantime we'll be bringing you a few

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Speaker 1: bonus episodes. Today, I'm joined by our new senior Global

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Speaker 1: Climate Justice reporter, Nina Lakhani, who has special insight into

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Speaker 1: the story of Berta Cassis. This week marks the ten

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Speaker 1: year anniversary of Bertha's assassination. She was an indigenous leader

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Speaker 1: in Honduras, and it's been proven that the Damn company

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Speaker 1: building the Damn she was protesting orchestrated a hit on

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Speaker 1: her with the help of various hitman, government officials, police, etc.

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Speaker 1: It was a horrific ordeal for Bertha's family, for the

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Speaker 1: whole movement in Honduras, and it also raised the profile

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Speaker 1: of just how dangerous it was to be an environmental

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Speaker 1: activist in Honduras. Unfortunately, in those ten years since her death,

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Speaker 1: it has not gotten any better, and Nina did a

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Speaker 1: deep dive on what's been going on in those ten years,

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Speaker 1: what it looks like now, and what the lasting impact

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Speaker 1: of Bertha's work was. Nina also wrote an entire book

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Speaker 1: on Bertha's story. It's called who killed Bertha Casseres. It's

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Speaker 1: really really excellent and has all of the receipts on

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Speaker 1: this whole wild story. So Nina's going to walk us

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Speaker 1: through that story and what's been going on in the

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Speaker 1: decade since all of that happened in this episode today.

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Speaker 1: That's coming up after this quick break. So, Nia, you

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Speaker 1: read a whole book about Bertha, and I knew of

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Speaker 1: her and her work before you started working on that

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Speaker 1: book as well. What was she like as a person

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Speaker 1: and a leader and what was so charismatic about her

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Speaker 1: that she posed such a threat to these industries.

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Speaker 2: Bertha Castides was a unique leader.

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Speaker 3: She had this really incredible capacity to explain local struggles

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Speaker 3: in regional and global economic and political terms, and she

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Speaker 3: could communicate with people from all different sort of walks

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Speaker 3: of life. So she was as comfortable in a sort

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Speaker 3: of rural community as she was talking to members of

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Speaker 3: Congress in the US. She wasn't a person that had

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Speaker 3: any formal education. She had four kids very young, but

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Speaker 3: she was, you know, a sponge.

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Speaker 2: She traveled internationally.

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Speaker 3: She spent a lot of time with indigenous communities in

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Speaker 3: land and environmental struggles around the world.

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Speaker 2: And she was just really really smart.

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Speaker 3: She was a political strategist, and she had this ability

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Speaker 3: to unite communities, which is really unusual in the social

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Speaker 3: movement people sort of have their little fiefdoms. In a way,

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Speaker 3: she could bring together the Cambasinos with students, she could

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Speaker 3: bring together feminists with unionists. And I think this ability

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Speaker 3: to bring people together, as well as her really.

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Speaker 2: Sort of very charismatic communication style.

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Speaker 3: She had this ability to convince, to really explain things

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Speaker 3: to people that the elites, that political and economic elites

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Speaker 3: found really threatening. And she could do this intellectually. She

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Speaker 3: was very good with words, but she was a person

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Speaker 3: that loved action. She now loved nothing more than being

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Speaker 3: at protests organizing civil disobedience.

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Speaker 2: She was a pacifist.

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Speaker 3: Her organization was a non violent class through organization. But

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Speaker 3: I think just this ability to be comfortable and powerful

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Speaker 3: and convincing, you know, really in so many different spaces,

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Speaker 3: among so many different sort of movements, really was a

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Speaker 3: threat to the status quo in Honduras.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how did her work first come on your radar?

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Speaker 1: You were reporting in Central America when she was active.

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Speaker 1: What did you first kind of see her do?

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Speaker 3: I met her in twenty thirteen during my first trip

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Speaker 3: to Honduras, I went for what were meant to be

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Speaker 3: the first legal elections after the two thousand and nine coups,

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Speaker 3: and so I went on a reporting trip and I

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Speaker 3: met her integrity Gulpay in a capitol where she was

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Speaker 3: participating in a press conference to international observers who'd come

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Speaker 3: for the election, and she was warning them with such

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Speaker 3: clarity that these were not going to be three and

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Speaker 3: fair elections, but the social movement was being repressed that

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Speaker 3: there was literally a hitless circulating with the names of

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Speaker 3: social leaders, including her, around the country who were being targeted.

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Speaker 3: I mean, and when I got to take Usigap, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it was I was living in Mexico at the time,

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Speaker 3: and I'd been to other Central American countries, but the

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Speaker 3: level of militarization was like nothing I'd seen before. It

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Speaker 3: looked like a war zone. So I met her there

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Speaker 3: and I asked her for an interview. At that time,

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Speaker 3: she was on the LAMB. There was an arrest warrant

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Speaker 3: out for her on bogus criminal charges related to her

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Speaker 3: leadership in this opposition of this internationally funded dam called Aguazadga,

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Speaker 3: and at the time, her and two colleagues work had

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Speaker 3: arrestaurrants against them, and so she was sleeping in different

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Speaker 3: places every night. The International at that point had said

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Speaker 3: that if they were arrested, they would consider them prisoners

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Speaker 3: of conscious because it would be completely arbitrary and politically motivated.

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Speaker 3: But she in writed me to go to Laspardanza, which

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Speaker 3: is the town in western Honduras where she lived and

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Speaker 3: she died, And so I went there a couple of

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Speaker 3: days later and I did my only interview with her.

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Speaker 3: That was the only time I got to interview her,

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Speaker 3: you know, and she just laid out very very clearly.

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Speaker 3: I mean a situation was like in Honduras for her personally,

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Speaker 3: for her family, I mean the threats that they faced.

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Speaker 2: At that point, three of her children.

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Speaker 3: Were studying outside of the country because of the threats

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Speaker 3: that the whole family faced.

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Speaker 2: And she described to me, with a real sort of.

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Speaker 3: Sadness, how what it was like to not be able

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Speaker 3: to go to the river that the lenk of people

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Speaker 3: consider sacred because of their rest woman, because of the

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Speaker 3: militarization in the community. And I remember really clearly she

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Speaker 3: said to me, look, I'm taking all the measures that

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Speaker 3: I can to protect my life. But when they want

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Speaker 3: to kill me, they will kill me. And I just

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Speaker 3: remember that hour I spent with her. It was like

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Speaker 3: one of those sort of moments you have as a

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Speaker 3: journalist that are quite life changing.

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Speaker 2: She was so impressive. She had such moral and.

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Speaker 3: Political and ethical clarity, you know, and she knew she

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Speaker 3: had been told to leave the country to safeguard her

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Speaker 3: own life, but she was absolutely determined to stay and

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Speaker 3: to continue fighting for a better future for people of Honduras.

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Speaker 1: There's this line in your piece where you said that

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Speaker 1: when you heard about her assassination, you thought to yourself, Jesus,

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Speaker 1: that they can kill But like I said, as they

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Speaker 1: can kill anyone. So yeah, just kind of what was

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Speaker 1: it like hearing that news and how did you dig

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Speaker 1: into investigating what happened there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was on vacation at the time when I woke

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Speaker 3: up to various miscalls for my editor at the time

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Speaker 3: saying they've killed Bertha.

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Speaker 2: Killed Bertha.

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Speaker 3: And at the time, she was absolutely the most well

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Speaker 3: known environmental and social leader in the Americas. She'd been

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Speaker 3: awarded the prestigious Goldman Prize the year previously, she'd only

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Speaker 3: a few months earlier had an audience with.

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Speaker 2: The poet in Rome, and so she was really well known.

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Speaker 2: You know, I member the.

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Speaker 3: US Conguess had taken up sort of her case has

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Speaker 3: had all of the major sort of human rights organizations.

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Speaker 1: To give you a sense of Bertha, here's a short

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Speaker 1: clip of the speech that she gave when she accepted

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Speaker 1: the Goldman Prize in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 4: Despertemos, despertemos u manida jian wait Tempo Luis tra concience, Yes,

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Speaker 4: Louis tra conciencia, couridas porlecho, the star solocon Templando laostruccion bassale,

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Speaker 4: la de preda song capitalista rasista ipatriarcal.

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Speaker 1: She says, wake up, wake up, humanity, We're out of time.

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Speaker 1: We must shake our consciences free of the repatacious capitalism, racism,

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Speaker 1: and patriarchy that will only assure our own self destruction.

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Speaker 3: And I think it was just so clear to me

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Speaker 3: then that the sense of entitlement and impunity that those

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Speaker 3: who ordered her murder must have felt to carry out

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Speaker 3: that assassination, because there's no way that you could kill

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Speaker 3: someone who was so well known internationally without there being

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Speaker 3: at least a tacit sort of you know, agreement from

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Speaker 3: people very high up.

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Speaker 2: I arrived in Honduras.

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Speaker 3: In life Spanser, I think about a month after her assassination.

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Speaker 2: Where I met.

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Speaker 3: It was for the first time her mother, who was

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Speaker 3: such a huge inspiration to her sort of social and

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Speaker 3: political work, who's ninety three.

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Speaker 2: By the way now and still in life, Speranza.

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Speaker 3: And the first piece I wrote then was I interviewed

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Speaker 3: and spoke to many of her colleagues who were with

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Speaker 3: her in those last days and weeks.

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Speaker 2: I went to the oblanc Or where the dam.

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Speaker 3: Had been destined and sanctioned to be sort of constructed,

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Speaker 3: and what became really clear to me was.

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Speaker 2: That she knew that time was running out.

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Speaker 3: She was under surveillance, there were informants everywhere, and she

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Speaker 3: had been making She'd been making plans, you know, She'd

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Speaker 3: shared the ability to sign checks, for example, with other

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Speaker 3: people in the organization. She'd said goodbye to one of

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Speaker 3: her daughters a couple of days earlier. She was on

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Speaker 3: their way back to Argentina, and the goodbye felt like

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Speaker 3: something more than just a normal sea soon.

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Speaker 2: So I think she knew had time was running out,

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Speaker 2: and so that was.

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Speaker 3: The first piece that I wrote, and then I just

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Speaker 3: started digging, and like I was able to get hold

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Speaker 3: of documents that showed that some of the Intermediris who

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Speaker 3: had been paid by the Damn Company were former army

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Speaker 3: officials who had received training by the US at different points.

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Speaker 2: In their career.

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Speaker 3: And I saw a young soldier from one of the

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Speaker 3: Special Forces who went Able a few weeks after her

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Speaker 3: murder because because he had been in a unit that

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Speaker 3: had been passed around this hit list in which there

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Speaker 3: was a name and personal details of multiple social and

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Speaker 3: community leaders, some of them had an X through them

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Speaker 3: who had already been neutralized, and Berta's name was on

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Speaker 3: that list, And so he went Able and ended up

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Speaker 3: coming to me and talked to me about this hit list.

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Speaker 3: He at the time remembered a lot of the training,

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Speaker 3: really awful training that he had had as a young soldier,

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Speaker 3: how there'd been military trainers from Israel, from Columbia, from

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Speaker 3: other countries there, and was just really frightened he had

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Speaker 3: to leave the country.

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Speaker 2: He's never been able to go back to the country since,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: And as I wrote those pieces, I became a target myself.

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Speaker 3: The Honduran ambassador in UK wrote complaints asking for stories

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Speaker 3: to be sort of retracted. The US ambassador in at

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Speaker 3: the time launched a campaign to discredit me, giving background

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Speaker 3: chats to all sorts of people in Honduras, claiming that

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Speaker 3: I was just this woman who didn't really understand how

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Speaker 3: that armed forces worked.

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Speaker 2: They were forced to at least.

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Speaker 3: Say they were going to launch an inquiry because the

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Speaker 3: army's units that had had this hit list circulated were

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Speaker 3: US trained army units, but they carried out no investigation,

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Speaker 3: didn't speak to any of the people that were in

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Speaker 3: my piece.

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Speaker 2: But I became a target from that point.

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Speaker 3: Really, there was like these online campaigns calling me a

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Speaker 3: media terrorist. And really, since then, that's twenty sixteen, I'd

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Speaker 3: never gone into Honduras by air. I've always gone in overland,

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Speaker 3: which is very difficult, like it can take a long time.

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Speaker 3: Because I was warned, you know, that I could be

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Speaker 3: stopped coming in. And then I kept investigating the links,

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Speaker 3: and then I was the only journalist National International to

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Speaker 3: attend every day the first trial, which was for eight people,

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Speaker 3: one who had nothing to do with it, but seven

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Speaker 3: between them were the hit men, the hired assassins, and

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Speaker 3: the intermediaries. And at the start of that trial, I

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Speaker 3: had some really serious threats come my way, some press

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Speaker 3: releases from these fake groups in the Baha Guan region,

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Speaker 3: which is a really conflicted, dangerous part of Honduras, declaring

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Speaker 3: me persona non grata, linking me to Mexican drug cartels,

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Speaker 3: calling me.

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Speaker 2: A terrorist, all sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, the deeper I dug, the more threats

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Speaker 3: I got, which and it's that sort of classic case

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Speaker 3: of knowing that you're hitting the right things because you're

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Speaker 3: really upsetting people. When I was reporting of from the trial,

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Speaker 3: the threats came to me from the Aguan which is

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Speaker 3: this rural sort of region where there's been long standing

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Speaker 3: land conflicts between African palm magnets and Campasinos, which really,

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Speaker 3: on the surface have nothing to.

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Speaker 2: Do with Butter's case, But I think it really showed that.

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Speaker 3: This network of economic, political, military, religious elites, the oligarchy

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Speaker 3: that rules Honduras and many many other sort of countries

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Speaker 3: in Latin America, you know, control the media, control the

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Speaker 3: banking sector, control so much of the power in the

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Speaker 3: country are connected, you know, And so a journalist that

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Speaker 3: was sort of digging into the modus operandi and the

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Speaker 3: structures and systems behind Butta's dev posed a threat to

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Speaker 3: all of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So walk us through what we know or

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Speaker 1: what's been made public so far about exactly what happened here,

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Speaker 1: who orchestrated this, and how did the government play into it?

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Speaker 5: Too?

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Speaker 6: Well.

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Speaker 3: We know that Butt was assassinated specifically because of her

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Speaker 3: campaign thought the construction of its internationally financed dam on

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Speaker 3: this river considers sacred by the Lenca people, and that

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Speaker 3: her organizing and her leadership had stalled the project, which

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Speaker 3: was impacting the profits.

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Speaker 2: Of the Damn Company. We know now from.

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Speaker 3: Investigations that have happened and from the court cases that

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Speaker 3: have happened so far, that the Damn Company was part

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Speaker 3: of an organized criminal enterprise which included Damn executives. It

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Speaker 3: included the highest hitmen. It included military trained intermediaries, but

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Speaker 3: it also included state officials and armed forces, both by

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Speaker 3: acts and by emissions. And by that I mean you

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Speaker 3: know sort of counterinsurgency campaign to neutralize her that lasted

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Speaker 3: for many years. It included the vogu dis criminal charges,

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Speaker 3: included intimidation, It included arming community members against each other,

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Speaker 3: It included attempted bribes, all of those things that were

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Speaker 3: classic counterinsurgency manuals from the Cold War area. They tried

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Speaker 3: with bertain, and when they couldn't silence her, they killed

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Speaker 3: her right And this criminal enterprise was involved in all

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Speaker 3: of that in all sorts of ways, from the surveillance

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Speaker 3: to we know from the evidence that I've seen that

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Speaker 3: the Damn Company would learn through informants that they were

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Speaker 3: paying in the community, when, for example, protests were being planned,

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Speaker 3: or when a road clock was being planned, they would

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Speaker 3: simply have to ask the government to send troops, to

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Speaker 3: send police there to repress the community's peaceful protests. We

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Speaker 3: know that the investigation into her murder at that time,

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Speaker 3: the Damn Company was continuing to pay police, investigators, journalists

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Speaker 3: to present information that served them. They were receiving images

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Speaker 3: from the crime scene themselves right in group chats. And

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Speaker 3: we also know that there was a coordinated plan to

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Speaker 3: blame the murder on Gusabacastro, who was Butther's friend, who

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Speaker 3: happened to be there and who they thought they had killed,

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Speaker 3: but who survived by feigning death, and so he became

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Speaker 3: the only winners, to blame the murder on him, to

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Speaker 3: blame the murder on her colleagues, her organization to blame

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00:17:23,202 --> 00:17:26,282
Speaker 3: the murder on a romantic partner. All of this was

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Speaker 3: coordinated and the Damn Company could not have done that themselves.

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Speaker 2: They didn't do themselves right.

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Speaker 3: There were elected officials and safe employees at every level,

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Speaker 3: from the police to the prosecutor's office, the Attorney General's office,

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00:17:40,202 --> 00:17:44,282
Speaker 3: to the military to everywhere that were involved either by

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Speaker 3: AXE or emissions in this right. But this was an

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Speaker 3: organized criminal enterprise that orchestrated the violence against Burla. The

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Speaker 3: Lenca community then attempted to cover it up. And which

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00:17:56,682 --> 00:17:59,362
Speaker 3: is one last thing. I mean the financial institutions involved

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Speaker 3: in this. We also know now that two thirds of

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Speaker 3: the money, two thirds of the money that was purported

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Speaker 3: by two international banks to interto international development banks was

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00:18:11,841 --> 00:18:18,802
Speaker 3: diverted to pay for the surveillance, the intelligence operations, the informants,

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00:18:19,121 --> 00:18:24,681
Speaker 3: the murder itself. This armed security and the banks involved,

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00:18:24,841 --> 00:18:28,562
Speaker 3: well known international banks that an utter failure of their

302
00:18:28,601 --> 00:18:33,081
Speaker 3: own due diligence obligations right and their obligations around human rights.

303
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Speaker 3: Butter wrote to some of these banks back in twenty

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Speaker 3: thirteen pleading with them not to fund this damn because

305
00:18:42,522 --> 00:18:45,482
Speaker 3: of the repression that was already being orchestrated. People had

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Speaker 3: already been killed, the community had already been terrorized.

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Speaker 2: But they went ahead anyway.

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Speaker 3: So the financial institutions that should be held accountable for

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Speaker 3: their role in this, but it stems from the hired

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Speaker 3: hit men, who, by the way, I interviewed in jail,

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Speaker 3: and it was honestly so sad. These were kids, poor kids,

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Speaker 3: exactly the type of kids that Berter was fighting for

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Speaker 3: a better future before. You know, at least two of

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Speaker 3: them were planning to use the money they get paid

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Speaker 3: to pay a coyote to try and.

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Speaker 2: Get to the US.

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Speaker 3: Right, not justifying what they did at all, but there's

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Speaker 3: also victims of this same sort of structural violence that

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Speaker 3: exists in the country.

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Speaker 1: Right, Like, ultimately they pulled the trigger, but they're not

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Speaker 1: the ones that planned and orchestrated and all that. That's

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Speaker 1: so sad.

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Speaker 3: Just to underline, the US is sort of roleing this,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, two of the intermediates had received

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Speaker 3: US training at different points of their career. A whistleblower

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Speaker 3: I've already mentioned he was in this unitch called Sattrage,

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Speaker 3: which had terrorized the Aguan region after the coup, and

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Speaker 3: which received lots of US training, and it's worth just

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Speaker 3: naming David Castillo. David Castile was the president.

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Speaker 2: And founder of the Damn Company.

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Speaker 3: He was an informer intelligence officer trained at West Point

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Speaker 3: in New York State, and he is the only one

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00:20:12,442 --> 00:20:17,081
Speaker 3: so far to have been convicted of playing a role

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Speaker 3: in masterminding the murder. He was also one of the

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Speaker 3: people convicted of fraud regarding the license of the dam

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00:20:24,121 --> 00:20:28,922
Speaker 3: that was sanctioned in this post coup pro business sort

337
00:20:28,922 --> 00:20:33,242
Speaker 3: of environment without due process, without proper consultations, without prop

338
00:20:33,321 --> 00:20:37,121
Speaker 3: environmental assessments. But yeah, the US made him right, and

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00:20:37,282 --> 00:20:41,481
Speaker 3: he used these intelligence tactics and strategies to try to

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Speaker 3: get close to about her, to infiltrate the community. And

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Speaker 3: you know, the US has this long inglorious history of

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Speaker 3: training people who go on to commit some of the

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Speaker 3: worst sort of human rights abuses in Latin America.

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Speaker 1: Totally. You spoke with gustavol Castro recently too. For this piece.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to play a little bit of tape from

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Speaker 1: him here and then would love to hear more about

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Speaker 1: him as well.

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Speaker 5: Mondon, which is on.

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Speaker 1: And he says, on the one hand, it's just as

350
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Speaker 1: you say, she's enormously missed, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: she's present in so many ways. Even in places where

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Speaker 1: they didn't know her, they know her now and she's present.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about him and his work.

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Speaker 1: What's his story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Kristavo Castra is this really highly regarded Mexican environmentalist

356
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Speaker 3: and anti capitalists sort of thinker and organizer. He's the

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Speaker 3: founder and director of an organization called Mundos Chiapas Other Worlds,

358
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Speaker 3: and that organization which works very closely with Bertha and

359
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Speaker 3: ba organization. They organize around environmentally destructive mega projects, but

360
00:22:05,402 --> 00:22:09,121
Speaker 3: they also do a lot of work around training and

361
00:22:09,482 --> 00:22:16,802
Speaker 3: helping communities develop local energy alternatives to global capitalists projects.

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Speaker 3: And him and Bertha go back years. She had some

363
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Speaker 3: amazing anecdotes about her. They were in Quebec together in

364
00:22:22,642 --> 00:22:25,802
Speaker 3: two thousand and one for the anti globalization protests. They

365
00:22:25,841 --> 00:22:29,201
Speaker 3: did a lot of organizing against NaSTA together, and so

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00:22:29,321 --> 00:22:31,242
Speaker 3: you know, they'd really been in the trenches, and the

367
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Speaker 3: two organizations would do a little back and forth of

368
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Speaker 3: training each other and sharing experiences and knowledge.

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Speaker 2: He was in Live Speranza that night.

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Speaker 3: He'd arrived that day having not seen Bersa for quite

371
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Speaker 3: some time. I mean after the two thousand and nine coup, Bertha,

372
00:22:47,282 --> 00:22:50,161
Speaker 3: the whole social movement in Honduras was in this perpetual

373
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Speaker 3: state of crisis, constantly fighting and struggling to stop these

374
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Speaker 3: illegally sanctioned projects. Right, So they hadn't seen each other

375
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Speaker 3: for some years, but he'd gone to live Speranza, and

376
00:23:00,601 --> 00:23:02,961
Speaker 3: he was there because he was going to do several

377
00:23:03,042 --> 00:23:09,401
Speaker 3: days of workshops for Lenka community members on renewable energy projects.

378
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Speaker 3: So he'd got there, they'd stayed up late talking, you know,

379
00:23:12,321 --> 00:23:14,002
Speaker 3: he was staying with her in her house, and they'd

380
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Speaker 3: both gone to bed.

381
00:23:15,642 --> 00:23:17,922
Speaker 2: They knew he was there, but we know.

382
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Speaker 3: From the evidence from the trials and from like various

383
00:23:21,282 --> 00:23:24,922
Speaker 3: sort of phone tapping documents and so forth, that there

384
00:23:24,922 --> 00:23:27,882
Speaker 3: had been reconsistance missions. The ex military sort of officers

385
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Speaker 3: that had been paid into mediries had conducted reconnaissance missions.

386
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Speaker 2: So they knew he was there.

387
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Speaker 3: And in fact, there was four assassins, like one who

388
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Speaker 3: stayed in the car and three who went to the house.

389
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Speaker 3: One shot brother and the other shot and another shot

390
00:23:43,882 --> 00:23:47,601
Speaker 3: was over and they shot him in the face and

391
00:23:47,922 --> 00:23:50,441
Speaker 3: it hit his ear, and so he was bleeding a

392
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Speaker 3: lot because of it. Was like, and so he just stopped.

393
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Speaker 3: He just laid down and pretended to be there, and

394
00:23:55,081 --> 00:23:58,642
Speaker 3: they thought he was dead. So he survived an assassination attempt, right,

395
00:23:59,081 --> 00:24:01,762
Speaker 3: and then stayed still and quiet until he was sure

396
00:24:01,841 --> 00:24:04,441
Speaker 3: everyone had gone, and then tried to get help, and

397
00:24:04,482 --> 00:24:06,881
Speaker 3: he took him hours to raise anybody. If he finally

398
00:24:06,962 --> 00:24:09,201
Speaker 3: managed to get in touch with people in Mexico who

399
00:24:09,282 --> 00:24:11,482
Speaker 3: got in touch with people in Honduras.

400
00:24:11,321 --> 00:24:12,242
Speaker 2: Who sent help.

401
00:24:12,522 --> 00:24:15,682
Speaker 3: And it's important to think that when people called for help,

402
00:24:15,802 --> 00:24:18,882
Speaker 3: they absolutely did not call the police, right because they

403
00:24:18,922 --> 00:24:21,802
Speaker 3: knew they weren't to be trusted. And so he was

404
00:24:21,841 --> 00:24:24,882
Speaker 3: sort of whisked away by members of COPING, but then

405
00:24:25,002 --> 00:24:29,522
Speaker 3: spent this almost a month trapped in Honduras as they

406
00:24:29,601 --> 00:24:33,042
Speaker 3: tried to pin the crime on him. They took his

407
00:24:33,282 --> 00:24:37,522
Speaker 3: boots to test for evidence. I mean they did, you know.

408
00:24:37,522 --> 00:24:39,842
Speaker 3: There was just this concerted effort, and he actually ended

409
00:24:39,882 --> 00:24:42,642
Speaker 3: up having to take refuge in an embassy because they

410
00:24:42,642 --> 00:24:46,441
Speaker 3: were trying to arrest him. I remember interviewing his lawyer

411
00:24:46,442 --> 00:24:48,242
Speaker 3: at the time and doing a story and when he

412
00:24:48,282 --> 00:24:51,122
Speaker 3: was eventually allowed to leave and go back to Mexico,

413
00:24:51,601 --> 00:24:54,081
Speaker 3: him and his family ended up spending two years in

414
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Speaker 3: exile in Spain because they didn't feel safe in Mexico either.

415
00:25:00,561 --> 00:25:01,081
Speaker 2: Too close.

416
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think all of that personally has

417
00:25:03,482 --> 00:25:06,882
Speaker 3: like obviously had this huge impact on his physical well being,

418
00:25:07,442 --> 00:25:10,162
Speaker 3: on his psychological well being. When I spoke to him

419
00:25:10,242 --> 00:25:14,482
Speaker 3: just a week to ago, saying, it's only now little

420
00:25:14,522 --> 00:25:18,561
Speaker 3: by little that he's sort of reading like the court file.

421
00:25:18,762 --> 00:25:22,442
Speaker 3: She's just been too difficult, and he's just realizing how

422
00:25:22,482 --> 00:25:24,962
Speaker 3: close it was that he could have ended up in

423
00:25:25,042 --> 00:25:27,361
Speaker 3: jail for this right, Like it was so close that

424
00:25:27,402 --> 00:25:29,282
Speaker 3: he really escaped with his liberty.

425
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Speaker 2: And I think the other thing.

426
00:25:30,522 --> 00:25:33,362
Speaker 3: Of say is that for him that all of that

427
00:25:33,361 --> 00:25:35,762
Speaker 3: sort of personal trauma. But like for him and many

428
00:25:35,802 --> 00:25:38,841
Speaker 3: people in the social movement, her assassination, her loss was

429
00:25:39,682 --> 00:25:42,722
Speaker 3: a huge hit to the whole social movement. They've spent

430
00:25:42,962 --> 00:25:48,042
Speaker 3: years really focused on demanding justice for Bertha Right and

431
00:25:48,121 --> 00:25:51,962
Speaker 3: trying to recuperate and refocus, and you know, it was

432
00:25:52,002 --> 00:25:54,682
Speaker 3: a huge crisis that had a lot of the work

433
00:25:54,722 --> 00:25:58,002
Speaker 3: that him and Bertha had initiated regionally, Like they had

434
00:25:58,042 --> 00:26:01,361
Speaker 3: all of these regional sort of meetings when groups with

435
00:26:01,522 --> 00:26:04,242
Speaker 3: different organizations would come together and they would plan and

436
00:26:04,321 --> 00:26:08,282
Speaker 3: strategize across the region. They've only just restarted those a

437
00:26:08,321 --> 00:26:09,162
Speaker 3: couple of years ago.

438
00:26:09,482 --> 00:26:12,442
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought that it was interesting and important reading

439
00:26:12,482 --> 00:26:16,242
Speaker 1: your piece because sometimes I think at least Gustavo wasn't arrested,

440
00:26:16,321 --> 00:26:18,321
Speaker 1: and like, we do know that it was the Damn

441
00:26:18,321 --> 00:26:21,482
Speaker 1: Company and the government, and there's been some accountability, some

442
00:26:21,522 --> 00:26:24,042
Speaker 1: people have gone to jail. Things like that. People will

443
00:26:24,081 --> 00:26:27,282
Speaker 1: be like, oh, okay, the social movement fought back, and yes,

444
00:26:27,321 --> 00:26:30,802
Speaker 1: in some ways that's true, but it also it creates

445
00:26:30,882 --> 00:26:34,121
Speaker 1: this vacuum, not just of that leadership, but then so

446
00:26:34,282 --> 00:26:37,802
Speaker 1: much time being spent dealing with the impact of that

447
00:26:37,802 --> 00:26:40,762
Speaker 1: that takes away from all of the other work that

448
00:26:40,802 --> 00:26:44,842
Speaker 1: they were doing for so long. Okay, speaking of accountability,

449
00:26:44,882 --> 00:26:49,282
Speaker 1: you mentioned David Castillo. Who else has been tried or

450
00:26:49,922 --> 00:26:53,162
Speaker 1: imprisoned or fined or whatever for their role in this.

451
00:26:54,642 --> 00:26:58,722
Speaker 3: So far eight people have been convicted of participating in

452
00:26:58,762 --> 00:27:01,722
Speaker 3: the murder that with Castilio is the most senior of those.

453
00:27:02,121 --> 00:27:05,321
Speaker 3: The other seven are the high assassins and the intermediates.

454
00:27:05,841 --> 00:27:08,641
Speaker 3: At least two of them had direct links to the

455
00:27:08,722 --> 00:27:13,601
Speaker 3: Damn Company. Police officer was recently convicted of tampering with

456
00:27:13,682 --> 00:27:17,841
Speaker 3: the crime scene and tampering with evidence, and that for Honduras,

457
00:27:18,081 --> 00:27:21,441
Speaker 3: that's honestly nothing short of a miracle. I mean, Bertha

458
00:27:21,762 --> 00:27:24,881
Speaker 3: is among almost one hundred land and environmental defenders that

459
00:27:24,922 --> 00:27:29,361
Speaker 3: have been murdered in the last ten years, and there's

460
00:27:29,361 --> 00:27:31,321
Speaker 3: been no accountability for any of those people.

461
00:27:32,002 --> 00:27:33,722
Speaker 2: So it's small miracle in a way.

462
00:27:33,762 --> 00:27:37,802
Speaker 3: And it's really thanks to who she was, right the

463
00:27:37,841 --> 00:27:42,282
Speaker 3: fact that her murder triggered this international outrage, but really

464
00:27:42,321 --> 00:27:48,482
Speaker 3: thanks to the persistence of her four children, of her organization,

465
00:27:48,682 --> 00:27:51,202
Speaker 3: of the people who knew and who loved her, who

466
00:27:51,202 --> 00:27:54,841
Speaker 3: have never stopped demanding justice. I remember when I went

467
00:27:55,002 --> 00:27:57,681
Speaker 3: to like Sponanza a month after her murder and I

468
00:27:57,762 --> 00:28:00,242
Speaker 3: met her daughters.

469
00:27:59,482 --> 00:28:01,042
Speaker 2: And two of them said to me.

470
00:28:01,361 --> 00:28:03,121
Speaker 3: They were in their early twenties at the time, and

471
00:28:03,162 --> 00:28:07,361
Speaker 3: they said to me, we know that it's on us

472
00:28:07,482 --> 00:28:10,241
Speaker 3: to get justice for our mother, but the state is

473
00:28:10,282 --> 00:28:12,002
Speaker 3: not going to do it. That we are now going

474
00:28:12,042 --> 00:28:15,321
Speaker 3: to dedicate our lives doing that. And they have right.

475
00:28:15,522 --> 00:28:18,122
Speaker 3: And so there's been a huge amount achieved, and there's

476
00:28:18,121 --> 00:28:21,361
Speaker 3: also been like some people, three people were convicted for

477
00:28:21,442 --> 00:28:25,762
Speaker 3: the fraud around the Damn concession itself. But there is

478
00:28:26,042 --> 00:28:29,321
Speaker 3: so many people and so many institutions that have not

479
00:28:29,402 --> 00:28:30,401
Speaker 3: been investigated.

480
00:28:30,962 --> 00:28:33,242
Speaker 2: To name a couple, the Damn Company.

481
00:28:33,561 --> 00:28:37,962
Speaker 3: The financial manager was a man called Danielle Atala Millns.

482
00:28:38,802 --> 00:28:41,362
Speaker 3: He and David ran the Damn Company sort that did

483
00:28:41,362 --> 00:28:44,882
Speaker 3: all the day to day operations. There's been an arrest

484
00:28:44,882 --> 00:28:47,282
Speaker 3: warrant out for him for two and a half years

485
00:28:47,802 --> 00:28:51,562
Speaker 3: that he was involved with David in diverting the funds,

486
00:28:51,642 --> 00:28:55,441
Speaker 3: in pain, the informants in pain, the assassins, all of

487
00:28:55,482 --> 00:28:58,482
Speaker 3: those things. He has not been arrested, I mean, and

488
00:28:58,562 --> 00:29:01,122
Speaker 3: the fact it took eight years to even issue that

489
00:29:01,242 --> 00:29:04,961
Speaker 3: arrestaurant is an absolute travesty of justice. An investigation by

490
00:29:05,082 --> 00:29:08,402
Speaker 3: independent experts that were supported by the Inter American Commission

491
00:29:08,402 --> 00:29:10,682
Speaker 3: of Human Rights recently.

492
00:29:10,202 --> 00:29:12,882
Speaker 2: Published tzo hundred page report in.

493
00:29:12,842 --> 00:29:16,042
Speaker 3: Which they talk about all the different sort of levels

494
00:29:16,082 --> 00:29:20,481
Speaker 3: of accountability that remain. The shareholders of the Damn Company

495
00:29:20,562 --> 00:29:23,242
Speaker 3: who were in the group chats when the violence and

496
00:29:23,282 --> 00:29:28,161
Speaker 3: the repression and the illegal payments were being organized.

497
00:29:27,562 --> 00:29:29,842
Speaker 2: Right, who either knew or should have known.

498
00:29:30,282 --> 00:29:34,962
Speaker 3: The government officials, the institutions, the armed forces that participated

499
00:29:35,082 --> 00:29:38,762
Speaker 3: in the violence before, during, and after her murder have

500
00:29:38,922 --> 00:29:40,202
Speaker 3: never been investigated.

501
00:29:40,362 --> 00:29:40,921
Speaker 2: Right, you know.

502
00:29:40,962 --> 00:29:43,242
Speaker 3: One of the things that strikes me is most sort

503
00:29:43,242 --> 00:29:47,522
Speaker 3: of I guess emblematic of this is that the damn License,

504
00:29:48,282 --> 00:29:52,042
Speaker 3: despite there being convictions around the ford in that license,

505
00:29:52,402 --> 00:29:56,482
Speaker 3: has never been revoked. Indigenous communities across the country and

506
00:29:56,562 --> 00:30:03,242
Speaker 3: other rural communities continue to face huge obstacles in obtaining

507
00:30:03,522 --> 00:30:08,042
Speaker 3: community collective land titles, which means that they are.

508
00:30:08,042 --> 00:30:10,762
Speaker 2: Very vulnerable to the terrible.

509
00:30:10,482 --> 00:30:13,642
Speaker 3: Laws that this in Honduras, where you know, any old

510
00:30:13,642 --> 00:30:15,762
Speaker 3: person can come along and lay claim to a piece

511
00:30:15,762 --> 00:30:18,042
Speaker 3: of land in which there isn't a laned title and

512
00:30:18,122 --> 00:30:21,762
Speaker 3: so that constant threat iLINK goes over the community even

513
00:30:21,762 --> 00:30:22,402
Speaker 3: to this day.

514
00:30:23,362 --> 00:30:26,562
Speaker 1: I think it makes sense now to talk about Gadifuna

515
00:30:26,802 --> 00:30:30,362
Speaker 1: and Miriam so like that. To me, that's just such

516
00:30:30,402 --> 00:30:33,922
Speaker 1: a classic example of this that there was this twenty fifteen.

517
00:30:33,962 --> 00:30:35,442
Speaker 2: Inter American Court of Humanoides.

518
00:30:35,722 --> 00:30:40,802
Speaker 1: Yeah that like said, yes, the government illegally allowed all

519
00:30:40,802 --> 00:30:45,122
Speaker 1: of this development on these people's land. They should be

520
00:30:45,442 --> 00:30:48,122
Speaker 1: have the land to return to them or be compensated whatever,

521
00:30:48,202 --> 00:30:51,482
Speaker 1: And then you know what has happened in the meantime,

522
00:30:51,562 --> 00:30:54,442
Speaker 1: So yeah, can you talk a little bit about that?

523
00:30:54,562 --> 00:30:57,442
Speaker 1: And then I want to play some tape from Miriam

524
00:30:57,482 --> 00:30:59,762
Speaker 1: who was birth as friend and is fighting that fight.

525
00:30:59,842 --> 00:31:05,562
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, me, Me and Miranda, I mean, another extraordinary woman,

526
00:31:05,642 --> 00:31:10,562
Speaker 3: an extraordinary indigenous leader. How and Bertha were best friends,

527
00:31:10,762 --> 00:31:14,242
Speaker 3: They were comrades, They were sort of sisters in the struggle.

528
00:31:14,802 --> 00:31:19,642
Speaker 3: Both were targets of misogynists, racist smear campaigns. They were

529
00:31:19,682 --> 00:31:23,402
Speaker 3: called bad mothers, they were called antidevelopment. But they always

530
00:31:23,402 --> 00:31:26,602
Speaker 3: had each other. They were together everywhere. And I think

531
00:31:26,842 --> 00:31:30,082
Speaker 3: Balta's loss has been you know, no one in the

532
00:31:30,122 --> 00:31:33,322
Speaker 3: movement has felt it as much as Miriam has. I

533
00:31:33,362 --> 00:31:37,602
Speaker 3: think just this fear, this constant fear that she could

534
00:31:37,602 --> 00:31:39,882
Speaker 3: be next, and it's a well founded fear. She has

535
00:31:39,922 --> 00:31:42,322
Speaker 3: received so many different strates she has really sort of

536
00:31:42,362 --> 00:31:45,202
Speaker 3: caused her to retreat a lot from the public work

537
00:31:45,242 --> 00:31:47,242
Speaker 3: that she was doing, or she remained sort of an

538
00:31:47,242 --> 00:31:48,282
Speaker 3: incredible leader.

539
00:31:48,802 --> 00:31:49,921
Speaker 2: I expect to her the other.

540
00:31:49,842 --> 00:31:53,482
Speaker 3: Day, and she was very clear that two events mark

541
00:31:54,122 --> 00:31:58,562
Speaker 3: for indigenous and land struggles in Honduras in the last decade.

542
00:31:58,682 --> 00:32:01,082
Speaker 3: One is the murder of her friend, and the other

543
00:32:01,282 --> 00:32:04,482
Speaker 3: was this inter American court landmark sentence at the end

544
00:32:04,522 --> 00:32:08,762
Speaker 3: of twenty fifteen, which found that the State of Honduras

545
00:32:09,442 --> 00:32:14,122
Speaker 3: had violated the human rights and the ancestral territorial rights

546
00:32:14,122 --> 00:32:16,842
Speaker 3: of the Goris and Garth and I put people on

547
00:32:16,882 --> 00:32:19,722
Speaker 3: the north coast of Honduras in a community called in

548
00:32:19,802 --> 00:32:23,042
Speaker 3: For de la Cruz and later in Punda Gooda as well,

549
00:32:23,442 --> 00:32:26,562
Speaker 3: and that the State of Honduras was ordered to return

550
00:32:26,722 --> 00:32:30,522
Speaker 3: the land, pay whatever compensation be necessary to the people

551
00:32:30,522 --> 00:32:33,642
Speaker 3: who are going to list land, to apologize and to

552
00:32:33,762 --> 00:32:35,882
Speaker 3: make sure these things never happened again.

553
00:32:36,202 --> 00:32:41,202
Speaker 2: Right ten years on, that land has not been returned.

554
00:32:41,762 --> 00:32:45,962
Speaker 3: More land, more ancestral land has been taken, has been

555
00:32:46,042 --> 00:32:47,842
Speaker 3: sold to private investors.

556
00:32:48,282 --> 00:32:50,122
Speaker 2: Some of the people who have bought.

557
00:32:49,842 --> 00:32:54,802
Speaker 3: This land illegally include government officials from every single party

558
00:32:54,882 --> 00:32:56,162
Speaker 3: that exists in the country.

559
00:32:56,322 --> 00:32:57,122
Speaker 2: There has been.

560
00:32:57,082 --> 00:33:01,242
Speaker 3: Ongoing development and encroachment, and those Gathon are leaders who

561
00:33:01,242 --> 00:33:05,242
Speaker 3: have been trying to get the state to comply with

562
00:33:05,362 --> 00:33:09,362
Speaker 3: this sentence have been disappeared, They've been killed, they've been

563
00:33:09,402 --> 00:33:12,002
Speaker 3: forced into exile, They've been for to my great to

564
00:33:12,082 --> 00:33:15,962
Speaker 3: the US or elsewhere. And it is perpetual state of

565
00:33:16,162 --> 00:33:21,282
Speaker 3: violence and land grabs that have continued. I actually spoke

566
00:33:21,322 --> 00:33:24,482
Speaker 3: to a local leader and zoom For de la Cruz yesterday,

567
00:33:24,522 --> 00:33:28,562
Speaker 3: a woman called Francis and on the tenth anniversary of the.

568
00:33:28,642 --> 00:33:31,322
Speaker 2: Court sentence that was the end of last year.

569
00:33:31,882 --> 00:33:35,242
Speaker 3: They're so sick fed up of non compliance with the

570
00:33:35,282 --> 00:33:37,762
Speaker 3: state that they've decided to take matters into their own

571
00:33:37,762 --> 00:33:42,002
Speaker 3: hand and have started to reoccupy peacefully the land that

572
00:33:42,202 --> 00:33:45,442
Speaker 3: is theirs that the highest court in the continent has

573
00:33:45,522 --> 00:33:49,042
Speaker 3: ruled to be their ancestral land. And the result has

574
00:33:49,082 --> 00:33:51,642
Speaker 3: been that they have been criminalized. They are now facing

575
00:33:51,722 --> 00:33:54,962
Speaker 3: criminal charges that if found guilty, they could face up

576
00:33:55,002 --> 00:33:57,562
Speaker 3: to nine years in prison. Right But she said to

577
00:33:57,602 --> 00:33:59,842
Speaker 3: me that this is our land. We are not going

578
00:33:59,882 --> 00:34:01,362
Speaker 3: to give up on our land, and we're going to

579
00:34:01,442 --> 00:34:04,842
Speaker 3: keep occupying it. But this is constant state of fear

580
00:34:05,042 --> 00:34:07,282
Speaker 3: and struggle. And I think the galley for on our

581
00:34:07,322 --> 00:34:11,962
Speaker 3: community and the Lenca community because of who Miriam and

582
00:34:12,202 --> 00:34:15,642
Speaker 3: both the words ah, you know, always work so closely together,

583
00:34:15,762 --> 00:34:18,482
Speaker 3: and there's struggles. There's a lot of parallels between the two.

584
00:34:18,762 --> 00:34:22,721
Speaker 1: It was so interesting to me that you described what's

585
00:34:22,762 --> 00:34:26,082
Speaker 1: happening there and that people can because so many of

586
00:34:26,082 --> 00:34:30,442
Speaker 1: the indigenous people don't have like hard copy land titles,

587
00:34:30,802 --> 00:34:32,881
Speaker 1: that it's that these people can come in and be like, oh,

588
00:34:32,922 --> 00:34:35,841
Speaker 1: this is my land, and then if you can't prove

589
00:34:35,882 --> 00:34:38,122
Speaker 1: that you own it, with this title, then you don't

590
00:34:38,122 --> 00:34:39,642
Speaker 1: have a leg to stand on and I get to

591
00:34:39,681 --> 00:34:43,162
Speaker 1: just take this land. It's wild, absolutely wild.

592
00:34:44,282 --> 00:34:47,042
Speaker 3: The onus is on communities who have lived on the

593
00:34:47,122 --> 00:34:49,922
Speaker 3: land for decades, if not centuries.

594
00:34:50,362 --> 00:34:52,922
Speaker 2: The onus is on them then to prove that they

595
00:34:52,962 --> 00:34:54,322
Speaker 2: are not invaders.

596
00:34:54,522 --> 00:34:59,402
Speaker 3: And because of this absolutely outrageous reform to the Penal

597
00:34:59,442 --> 00:35:04,002
Speaker 3: Code in twenty twenty, which was condemned by every single

598
00:35:04,082 --> 00:35:07,762
Speaker 3: international law expert, that you can imagine a business person,

599
00:35:07,962 --> 00:35:10,761
Speaker 3: someone who wants a piece of land can register a

600
00:35:10,802 --> 00:35:12,882
Speaker 3: peace of land in their name or the name of

601
00:35:13,122 --> 00:35:16,642
Speaker 3: anyone at the land registry, take it to a court

602
00:35:17,042 --> 00:35:19,642
Speaker 3: and say, hey, this is my land and its invaders

603
00:35:19,642 --> 00:35:23,401
Speaker 3: on it, and the community there can be evicted within

604
00:35:23,482 --> 00:35:24,562
Speaker 3: forty eight hours.

605
00:35:24,721 --> 00:35:26,642
Speaker 2: They're called express evictions.

606
00:35:27,082 --> 00:35:27,241
Speaker 7: You know.

607
00:35:27,322 --> 00:35:29,922
Speaker 3: So you have communities across the country just live in

608
00:35:29,962 --> 00:35:32,922
Speaker 3: on in shacks on the side of the road because

609
00:35:32,922 --> 00:35:35,642
Speaker 3: they have been taffed off their land, where they have cops,

610
00:35:35,681 --> 00:35:39,361
Speaker 3: where they have you know, ancestral rights, and yeah, it's

611
00:35:39,402 --> 00:35:41,522
Speaker 3: a completely outrageous and illegal.

612
00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:43,482
Speaker 1: We kind of touched on this a little bit, but

613
00:35:43,642 --> 00:35:46,002
Speaker 1: you know, you had the coup and postcup, you had

614
00:35:46,002 --> 00:35:50,002
Speaker 1: this very pro business narco government, and then you had

615
00:35:50,042 --> 00:35:52,842
Speaker 1: this brief period of the Libre Party that seemed like

616
00:35:52,922 --> 00:35:56,962
Speaker 1: they were going in the right direction, but didn't make

617
00:35:57,042 --> 00:36:01,241
Speaker 1: any changes to sort of the major structural foundations of

618
00:36:01,282 --> 00:36:05,442
Speaker 1: this stuff. So they didn't enforce this ruling from the

619
00:36:05,482 --> 00:36:07,681
Speaker 1: regional core either. Right. So I want to play a

620
00:36:07,721 --> 00:36:10,402
Speaker 1: little bit of tape from this woman Karen Spring, that

621
00:36:10,442 --> 00:36:13,002
Speaker 1: you spoke with about this, because I thought she had

622
00:36:13,002 --> 00:36:15,482
Speaker 1: this great line about how it doesn't matter who's in charge.

623
00:36:15,562 --> 00:36:19,082
Speaker 1: The problem is, you know, is endemic, and it's also

624
00:36:19,161 --> 00:36:23,602
Speaker 1: connected to neoliberal capitalism globally. And then I want to

625
00:36:23,602 --> 00:36:26,082
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what the Leabti Party was

626
00:36:26,282 --> 00:36:30,842
Speaker 1: and why it didn't sort of work to change things.

627
00:36:31,642 --> 00:36:32,442
Speaker 2: It's systemic.

628
00:36:32,562 --> 00:36:36,322
Speaker 6: It doesn't matter who's in power in Honduras, or who's

629
00:36:36,362 --> 00:36:40,042
Speaker 6: in the presidential palace or the Supreme Court or the

630
00:36:40,122 --> 00:36:41,442
Speaker 6: public prosecutor's office.

631
00:36:41,482 --> 00:36:42,201
Speaker 2: It's systemic.

632
00:36:42,282 --> 00:36:47,761
Speaker 6: It's part of how the system functions, the neoliberal economics system.

633
00:36:48,082 --> 00:36:53,801
Speaker 6: It needs impunity, it needs corruption, it needs political actors

634
00:36:53,922 --> 00:36:57,282
Speaker 6: to be involved in organized crime in order to advance

635
00:36:57,402 --> 00:37:00,882
Speaker 6: in countries like Honduras and many others around the world.

636
00:37:01,322 --> 00:37:05,402
Speaker 6: This is how the system is supposed to work, and

637
00:37:05,402 --> 00:37:06,681
Speaker 6: it's very unfortunate.

638
00:37:07,482 --> 00:37:11,681
Speaker 1: Karen Spring is co coordinator of the Honduras Solidarity Project.

639
00:37:12,322 --> 00:37:16,642
Speaker 1: She mobilized help on the night of Bertha's murder. Okay, so, Nina,

640
00:37:17,042 --> 00:37:20,401
Speaker 1: what was and is the Liberal Party and what did

641
00:37:20,402 --> 00:37:21,082
Speaker 1: they try to do?

642
00:37:21,922 --> 00:37:22,122
Speaker 2: Yeah?

643
00:37:22,201 --> 00:37:25,162
Speaker 3: Until the coup Pondurus in its sort of very brief

644
00:37:25,241 --> 00:37:29,402
Speaker 3: democratic sort of period of twenty five years, it was

645
00:37:29,442 --> 00:37:31,842
Speaker 3: a two party system, right, the National Party and the

646
00:37:31,882 --> 00:37:35,201
Speaker 3: Liberal Party, which honestly resembled a lot the Democrats and

647
00:37:35,241 --> 00:37:38,241
Speaker 3: the Republicans. Right, there was very little between them in

648
00:37:38,322 --> 00:37:41,322
Speaker 3: many things. There were powerful elite to running two parties.

649
00:37:41,522 --> 00:37:45,162
Speaker 3: The Liberal Party was ostensibly better than the National Party

650
00:37:45,241 --> 00:37:48,241
Speaker 3: when it came to human rights and sort of some

651
00:37:48,282 --> 00:37:50,962
Speaker 3: social issues, but there wasn't that much between them. The

652
00:37:51,042 --> 00:37:54,482
Speaker 3: coup happened, which is orchestrated mostly by the National Party

653
00:37:54,642 --> 00:37:58,042
Speaker 3: and their economic sort of military religious allies, but with

654
00:37:58,161 --> 00:38:01,721
Speaker 3: some Liberal Party members around the fringes too, and then

655
00:38:01,842 --> 00:38:04,122
Speaker 3: you know, in the wake of that, in the coming years,

656
00:38:04,241 --> 00:38:08,082
Speaker 3: the Liberal Party is worn really out of the resistance

657
00:38:08,122 --> 00:38:12,002
Speaker 3: to the coup. Right, so it includes academic mix unionists,

658
00:38:12,042 --> 00:38:17,402
Speaker 3: social movements, all of those things, but also has veteran

659
00:38:17,522 --> 00:38:23,362
Speaker 3: politicians from the Liberal Party right, including Manuel Zelaya who

660
00:38:23,602 --> 00:38:26,721
Speaker 3: was the Liberal Party president who was deposed in the

661
00:38:26,762 --> 00:38:31,042
Speaker 3: coup right and among many others, and a lot of

662
00:38:31,042 --> 00:38:36,842
Speaker 3: these Liberal Party politicians have their own connections to land violations,

663
00:38:37,201 --> 00:38:42,241
Speaker 3: alleged connections to organized crime and other types of wrongdoing.

664
00:38:42,482 --> 00:38:44,562
Speaker 2: Right, But it does rise out of the.

665
00:38:44,522 --> 00:38:47,522
Speaker 3: Social movement, and Manil Zelaya would have liked to have

666
00:38:47,562 --> 00:38:50,082
Speaker 3: been president again, but he was a man that the

667
00:38:50,201 --> 00:38:53,161
Speaker 3: US could not do business with, right, and there was

668
00:38:53,241 --> 00:38:55,482
Speaker 3: no way they were ever going to allow him to

669
00:38:56,002 --> 00:39:00,161
Speaker 3: run for president again. So his wife, former US Lady

670
00:39:00,241 --> 00:39:04,362
Speaker 3: Zielma Castro, runs for president and wins at the end

671
00:39:04,402 --> 00:39:06,362
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one and comes into power in twenty

672
00:39:06,402 --> 00:39:14,201
Speaker 3: twenty two. It definitely hope, right, being completely cynical, I

673
00:39:14,201 --> 00:39:16,562
Speaker 3: don't know how much to day Marcostra wanted to be president,

674
00:39:16,642 --> 00:39:20,281
Speaker 3: and I think lots of evidence that I saw her

675
00:39:20,362 --> 00:39:23,442
Speaker 3: husband was running a lot of things in the background.

676
00:39:23,882 --> 00:39:25,122
Speaker 2: But it did bring hope.

677
00:39:25,122 --> 00:39:26,681
Speaker 3: And one of the things that I think people were

678
00:39:26,681 --> 00:39:29,161
Speaker 3: really sort of energized about it at the beginning was

679
00:39:29,161 --> 00:39:33,801
Speaker 3: that she announced these sort of priorities investigations, these commissions,

680
00:39:34,161 --> 00:39:39,642
Speaker 3: which included a commission into the Gaddi Funna land issues,

681
00:39:39,681 --> 00:39:43,241
Speaker 3: into the implementation of the Inter American Court the Human

682
00:39:43,362 --> 00:39:48,082
Speaker 3: Right sentence, into Aguan land conflicts, into Batera's case, for example.

683
00:39:49,201 --> 00:39:51,202
Speaker 2: We learned some really important things.

684
00:39:51,241 --> 00:39:54,042
Speaker 3: There was good steps taken, but at the end of

685
00:39:54,082 --> 00:39:57,962
Speaker 3: the day, it's about action, right, and they failed to

686
00:39:58,082 --> 00:40:03,681
Speaker 3: deliver transformative action, structural changes. The people I spoke to,

687
00:40:03,882 --> 00:40:06,721
Speaker 3: the analysts I spoke to and would say that all

688
00:40:06,762 --> 00:40:08,842
Speaker 3: of the commissions in quiries they set up have to

689
00:40:08,922 --> 00:40:11,482
Speaker 3: be thought of as failures because they did not achieve

690
00:40:11,602 --> 00:40:16,002
Speaker 3: structural changes. But interestingly, like Honduras, like Latin America in general,

691
00:40:16,201 --> 00:40:19,281
Speaker 3: social movements are very active despite the huge risks that

692
00:40:19,322 --> 00:40:22,402
Speaker 3: they face. People go out into the streets, they protest,

693
00:40:22,721 --> 00:40:26,281
Speaker 3: they demand better, and that really didn't happen.

694
00:40:26,122 --> 00:40:27,642
Speaker 2: During a liberal government, right.

695
00:40:27,721 --> 00:40:31,042
Speaker 3: And I think partly people say it's because everyone was

696
00:40:31,082 --> 00:40:35,441
Speaker 3: exhausted after thirteen years of National Party abuses. I think

697
00:40:35,482 --> 00:40:39,401
Speaker 3: people also didn't want to close the door to dialogue

698
00:40:39,402 --> 00:40:42,322
Speaker 3: with the government. I think people felt we should reassured

699
00:40:42,362 --> 00:40:45,282
Speaker 3: because so many people from their resistance ended up in government,

700
00:40:45,362 --> 00:40:47,642
Speaker 3: and so they didn't have that pressure on the streets,

701
00:40:47,681 --> 00:40:50,682
Speaker 3: which I think is really important. And so I think,

702
00:40:51,161 --> 00:40:54,721
Speaker 3: you know, there was some positive changes. There was definitely

703
00:40:55,282 --> 00:40:59,922
Speaker 3: fewer land grads. There were fewer land environmental activists murdered,

704
00:41:00,442 --> 00:41:04,682
Speaker 3: but you know, nowhere near enough, and certainly they cannot

705
00:41:04,681 --> 00:41:06,721
Speaker 3: claim that they delivered on their promises.

706
00:41:07,122 --> 00:41:09,562
Speaker 1: It's a good lesson for American politics. I feel like

707
00:41:09,562 --> 00:41:11,562
Speaker 1: this happens all the time where I mean, we saw

708
00:41:11,642 --> 00:41:14,562
Speaker 1: it in the like Trump to bide into Trump cycle

709
00:41:14,762 --> 00:41:18,442
Speaker 1: in the US too, where people really got galvanized around

710
00:41:19,322 --> 00:41:22,442
Speaker 1: just getting rid of this one administration and not the

711
00:41:22,482 --> 00:41:25,761
Speaker 1: structural things underneath that we're going to continue to be bad.

712
00:41:25,842 --> 00:41:28,321
Speaker 1: And I mean there's so much lecturing. I don't know

713
00:41:28,322 --> 00:41:30,562
Speaker 1: if this was happening in Honduras too, but in the

714
00:41:30,681 --> 00:41:34,922
Speaker 1: US there was so much like lecturing of the center

715
00:41:35,042 --> 00:41:38,241
Speaker 1: left to the left. You know, it's like, don't criticize

716
00:41:38,282 --> 00:41:41,162
Speaker 1: the IRA and don't criticize whatever. And it's like, well,

717
00:41:41,802 --> 00:41:46,761
Speaker 1: then you end up with no structural change and policies

718
00:41:46,762 --> 00:41:49,082
Speaker 1: that can easily be chucked out as soon as the

719
00:41:49,161 --> 00:41:52,922
Speaker 1: next conservative government comes in, which the Conservatives seemed to

720
00:41:53,002 --> 00:41:56,002
Speaker 1: know really well. And it sounds like the National Party

721
00:41:56,042 --> 00:41:58,082
Speaker 1: has learned that left as well.

722
00:41:58,842 --> 00:42:02,281
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we have the National Party president that

723
00:42:02,402 --> 00:42:06,162
Speaker 3: governed for two terms. Juan or Lando Hernandez was running

724
00:42:06,522 --> 00:42:10,242
Speaker 3: a criminal enterprise through the party. Him and his brother

725
00:42:10,522 --> 00:42:12,402
Speaker 3: Tony had and As, who was a member of Congress,

726
00:42:12,522 --> 00:42:14,961
Speaker 3: were both convicted in the Southern District of New York

727
00:42:15,002 --> 00:42:18,722
Speaker 3: of being major drug traffickers and arm traffickers.

728
00:42:18,482 --> 00:42:19,721
Speaker 2: To the US.

729
00:42:20,161 --> 00:42:23,721
Speaker 3: Juan Lando Hernandez was sentenced to forty five years in

730
00:42:23,802 --> 00:42:27,002
Speaker 3: jail in twenty twenty four, and at the end of

731
00:42:27,082 --> 00:42:29,362
Speaker 3: last year it pardoned by Donald Trump.

732
00:42:29,522 --> 00:42:31,002
Speaker 2: Right and now.

733
00:42:30,922 --> 00:42:36,401
Speaker 3: Trump supported National Party Canada has been re elected into

734
00:42:36,482 --> 00:42:41,761
Speaker 3: government a construction magnet, and really the brief respite that

735
00:42:41,842 --> 00:42:45,761
Speaker 3: the Liblo Party sort of provided despite not making any

736
00:42:45,842 --> 00:42:49,801
Speaker 3: real major changes is over. And I think the parallels

737
00:42:49,842 --> 00:42:52,642
Speaker 3: between what you've just described in the US and Honduras

738
00:42:52,721 --> 00:42:54,082
Speaker 3: are really important to make.

739
00:42:54,201 --> 00:42:54,321
Speaker 7: Right.

740
00:42:54,402 --> 00:42:59,321
Speaker 3: It's that actually being on the streets, the public protests.

741
00:42:59,322 --> 00:43:06,321
Speaker 2: Are essential to delivering long term transformational changes. Right. Are

742
00:43:06,322 --> 00:43:07,401
Speaker 2: they enough on their own?

743
00:43:08,042 --> 00:43:08,201
Speaker 3: No?

744
00:43:08,602 --> 00:43:10,602
Speaker 2: But without them it's not possible. Right.

745
00:43:10,802 --> 00:43:14,201
Speaker 3: So, now, I remember when Biden one, I was living

746
00:43:14,201 --> 00:43:16,761
Speaker 3: in the US then, and even in the newsroom I

747
00:43:16,842 --> 00:43:20,042
Speaker 3: was working in the relief among some people was like,

748
00:43:20,082 --> 00:43:22,042
Speaker 3: oh my god, we can just we can breathe again.

749
00:43:22,122 --> 00:43:28,161
Speaker 2: We can just you know, we can returned exactly exactly.

750
00:43:28,562 --> 00:43:31,721
Speaker 2: And you know what, rights are very hard to fight for,

751
00:43:31,962 --> 00:43:33,042
Speaker 2: but it's even.

752
00:43:32,882 --> 00:43:35,361
Speaker 3: Harder to keep them right. And I think both these

753
00:43:35,402 --> 00:43:36,482
Speaker 3: countries can show us that.

754
00:43:37,082 --> 00:43:40,402
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about one Lopez and his

755
00:43:40,442 --> 00:43:43,562
Speaker 1: assassination in twenty twenty four. That was when the Liberal

756
00:43:43,602 --> 00:43:46,281
Speaker 1: Party was still in power, right, so you know, a

757
00:43:46,482 --> 00:43:51,042
Speaker 1: very similar situation to Bertha happened under this party. Another

758
00:43:51,122 --> 00:43:54,962
Speaker 1: example of how this is happening regardless of who's in power.

759
00:43:55,042 --> 00:43:57,082
Speaker 1: But tell me a little bit about who he was

760
00:43:57,161 --> 00:43:58,681
Speaker 1: and what happened in that situation.

761
00:43:59,322 --> 00:44:04,082
Speaker 3: Juan Lopez was a community leader from the Baho Guan area.

762
00:44:04,282 --> 00:44:07,362
Speaker 3: He was an evangelical pasta. He was one of the

763
00:44:07,442 --> 00:44:12,562
Speaker 3: key people who helped organize a position to this huge

764
00:44:12,681 --> 00:44:17,681
Speaker 3: polluting iron ore mine that had been sanctioned within a

765
00:44:17,762 --> 00:44:21,522
Speaker 3: nationally protected forest area where there are sort of really

766
00:44:21,562 --> 00:44:25,122
Speaker 3: important water sources serving thousands of people in the area.

767
00:44:25,201 --> 00:44:29,161
Speaker 3: And this mine was owned by a very very powerful,

768
00:44:29,201 --> 00:44:32,922
Speaker 3: wealthy couple linked to the National Party. The community is

769
00:44:32,962 --> 00:44:35,522
Speaker 3: called Wapinol, and he was one of the key leaders

770
00:44:35,562 --> 00:44:39,681
Speaker 3: in organizing that and the repression against that community that

771
00:44:39,802 --> 00:44:43,441
Speaker 3: happened during the previous administration but also during the Liberal

772
00:44:43,482 --> 00:44:48,322
Speaker 3: administration was really just like outrageous. Seven people, I think,

773
00:44:48,362 --> 00:44:52,522
Speaker 3: not Juan, but seven other leaders were jailed for two

774
00:44:52,602 --> 00:44:57,802
Speaker 3: years without bail from bogus charges. Juan and many others

775
00:44:57,842 --> 00:45:01,161
Speaker 3: based criminal charges as well community as militarizers.

776
00:45:01,201 --> 00:45:02,642
Speaker 2: I had threats all of the time.

777
00:45:03,122 --> 00:45:06,642
Speaker 3: But the interesting thing about Juan was that at the

778
00:45:06,721 --> 00:45:10,922
Speaker 3: time of his murder, he was actually in an elected

779
00:45:11,161 --> 00:45:15,761
Speaker 3: Liberal Party official in the city of Takoa, which is

780
00:45:15,802 --> 00:45:18,562
Speaker 3: the main city in naguan So he was like a

781
00:45:18,562 --> 00:45:21,761
Speaker 3: local sort of counselor. And he had been calling out

782
00:45:22,442 --> 00:45:27,681
Speaker 3: alleged corruption between the mayor, a Liberal Party mayor, and

783
00:45:28,002 --> 00:45:30,761
Speaker 3: organized crime. And he had been calling this out, and

784
00:45:30,802 --> 00:45:34,161
Speaker 3: he had been investigating any sort of alleged links to

785
00:45:34,241 --> 00:45:39,362
Speaker 3: the mind but also linked to other sort of organized crime.

786
00:45:39,802 --> 00:45:42,522
Speaker 3: And he was shot dead coming out outside a church

787
00:45:42,602 --> 00:45:46,002
Speaker 3: in September twenty twenty four. I mean, it was really

788
00:45:46,042 --> 00:45:50,442
Speaker 3: the most impactful murder of a environmental land defender since Berther.

789
00:45:50,721 --> 00:45:56,282
Speaker 3: You know, one was much loved, incredible communicator, very well known,

790
00:45:56,362 --> 00:45:59,522
Speaker 3: and a Liberal Party elected official right he liked Berther

791
00:46:00,241 --> 00:46:03,161
Speaker 3: was meant to be the recipient of protective measures that

792
00:46:03,201 --> 00:46:05,642
Speaker 3: had been ordered by the Inter American Commission of Human

793
00:46:05,721 --> 00:46:09,082
Speaker 3: Rights because of the threats that he was facing, and

794
00:46:09,161 --> 00:46:12,681
Speaker 3: he was killed anyway, like we've but the case of

795
00:46:12,721 --> 00:46:15,241
Speaker 3: the Guapino defenders was well known by and had been

796
00:46:15,282 --> 00:46:18,602
Speaker 3: taken up by many different UN experts, who after his

797
00:46:18,721 --> 00:46:24,242
Speaker 3: death specifically called out for an independent investigation that looked

798
00:46:24,482 --> 00:46:29,402
Speaker 3: at the ties between the mining company and the local

799
00:46:29,762 --> 00:46:32,242
Speaker 3: and the mayor's office in the crime.

800
00:46:32,842 --> 00:46:35,681
Speaker 2: None of that has happened so far.

801
00:46:36,002 --> 00:46:39,882
Speaker 3: Three alleged assassins have been charged and their trial is

802
00:46:39,962 --> 00:46:43,882
Speaker 3: due to start later this year, but none of those

803
00:46:44,362 --> 00:46:50,042
Speaker 3: who conspired or ordered paid for this murder have been

804
00:46:50,082 --> 00:46:52,602
Speaker 3: There's no evidence I have even been investigated, and I've

805
00:46:52,602 --> 00:46:55,402
Speaker 3: spoken to people who have contacts in the prosecutor's office,

806
00:46:55,962 --> 00:46:59,362
Speaker 3: the investigation has not proceeded at all, and so really

807
00:46:59,482 --> 00:47:03,002
Speaker 3: to this day, if we think about since the coup,

808
00:47:04,122 --> 00:47:05,442
Speaker 3: I'd say I don't know.

809
00:47:05,842 --> 00:47:06,842
Speaker 2: At least two.

810
00:47:06,762 --> 00:47:10,281
Speaker 3: Hundred landing environmental defenders have either been killed or disappeared

811
00:47:10,322 --> 00:47:15,281
Speaker 3: in Hondura, and is by far the case where there

812
00:47:15,282 --> 00:47:22,602
Speaker 3: has been most accountability. Accountability remains almost impossible, Impunity remains

813
00:47:22,642 --> 00:47:25,201
Speaker 3: the norm. And I think with One's case, what we're

814
00:47:25,241 --> 00:47:27,122
Speaker 3: seeing is another example of that.

815
00:47:28,681 --> 00:47:31,801
Speaker 1: You just started to talk about this connection between what

816
00:47:32,002 --> 00:47:36,602
Speaker 1: happened with Ernandez and then being convicted and then pardoned

817
00:47:36,642 --> 00:47:39,762
Speaker 1: by Trump, and then I don't know, a year later

818
00:47:40,362 --> 00:47:44,681
Speaker 1: he is going after Maruro for drug trafficking charges and

819
00:47:44,802 --> 00:47:48,681
Speaker 1: using it as an excuse to take over Venezuela. So yeah,

820
00:47:48,762 --> 00:47:50,642
Speaker 1: I mean you must have been going like, oh my god,

821
00:47:50,762 --> 00:47:52,162
Speaker 1: there's so many parallels.

822
00:47:52,442 --> 00:47:58,321
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean the Venezuela piece of this goes

823
00:47:58,402 --> 00:48:02,282
Speaker 3: back to the coup actually, right, And so Manuel Selaijah,

824
00:48:02,562 --> 00:48:05,602
Speaker 3: the liberal president who was deposed in two thousand and nine.

825
00:48:06,002 --> 00:48:09,962
Speaker 3: When he came into office, he was just like another landowner, right,

826
00:48:10,042 --> 00:48:12,482
Speaker 3: he'd been involved in logging. It comes from one of

827
00:48:12,522 --> 00:48:16,681
Speaker 3: the oldest trace Spanish sort of settler families, I mean,

828
00:48:17,002 --> 00:48:21,241
Speaker 3: but slowly over his mandate as he became closer to

829
00:48:21,482 --> 00:48:25,522
Speaker 3: the social movement right, and he actually became quite close

830
00:48:25,562 --> 00:48:28,602
Speaker 3: to Chavez. He go Chaves at the time and was

831
00:48:28,762 --> 00:48:34,282
Speaker 3: buying oil from Venezuela, and the US government at the time,

832
00:48:34,522 --> 00:48:39,681
Speaker 3: specifically Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State, absolutely hated this right,

833
00:48:40,082 --> 00:48:44,721
Speaker 3: loathed loathed as a liar who decided to buy Venezuelan

834
00:48:44,842 --> 00:48:49,402
Speaker 3: oil because energy prices are so disgustingly high, like outrageously

835
00:48:49,482 --> 00:48:53,442
Speaker 3: high in Honduras because of this sort of mafia monopoly

836
00:48:53,602 --> 00:48:57,522
Speaker 3: of the energy sector. When Hilary was standing for president

837
00:48:57,642 --> 00:49:02,042
Speaker 3: against Trump, I went back and investigated her role in that,

838
00:49:02,201 --> 00:49:05,281
Speaker 3: and I didn't find any smoking gun of the US

839
00:49:05,402 --> 00:49:06,642
Speaker 3: involvement in the coup.

840
00:49:07,042 --> 00:49:08,642
Speaker 2: But I absolutely can.

841
00:49:08,482 --> 00:49:13,082
Speaker 3: Say that the US and hy Clinton inarticular allowed the

842
00:49:13,161 --> 00:49:16,721
Speaker 3: coup to proceed, and they allowed the post CU regime

843
00:49:17,362 --> 00:49:20,402
Speaker 3: to do what it wanted to do because the liar

844
00:49:20,442 --> 00:49:23,881
Speaker 3: was a persononym Gwaetaf as well as the US was concerned. Right,

845
00:49:23,922 --> 00:49:26,842
Speaker 3: So the Venezuela and goes back to then now fast

846
00:49:26,882 --> 00:49:33,962
Speaker 3: forward land Orlando Hernandez was pardoned at the end of

847
00:49:34,082 --> 00:49:39,402
Speaker 3: last year, literally as plans were already underway by the

848
00:49:39,562 --> 00:49:45,361
Speaker 3: US to illegally depose Madua. Literally at the same time,

849
00:49:45,442 --> 00:49:48,201
Speaker 3: Trump was claiming that Maduro and his wife and the

850
00:49:48,282 --> 00:49:53,762
Speaker 3: Venezuelan regime were part of cartel, which doesn't exist.

851
00:49:54,002 --> 00:49:56,241
Speaker 1: I know that one kills me because you could see it.

852
00:49:56,362 --> 00:49:58,761
Speaker 1: They're like talking about it as that exists. And then

853
00:49:58,762 --> 00:50:01,082
Speaker 1: they kind of get a couple of leaders that are

854
00:50:01,122 --> 00:50:04,841
Speaker 1: friendly to them to repeat this name, that this exists,

855
00:50:05,122 --> 00:50:07,562
Speaker 1: and then yeah.

856
00:50:06,842 --> 00:50:10,562
Speaker 3: Well they claimed they were leading the is like this

857
00:50:11,161 --> 00:50:17,882
Speaker 3: nickname that Venezuelan journalists gave two first Venezuelan military office,

858
00:50:17,922 --> 00:50:21,122
Speaker 3: but then anyone from the state who were engaged in

859
00:50:21,161 --> 00:50:22,642
Speaker 3: allegedly corrupt actions.

860
00:50:22,681 --> 00:50:24,682
Speaker 2: So it doesn't exist as a group.

861
00:50:24,802 --> 00:50:28,801
Speaker 3: It's like a loose term to describe corrupt officials. So yeah,

862
00:50:28,922 --> 00:50:33,642
Speaker 3: so I mean literally, they pardoned this major drug trafficker.

863
00:50:33,762 --> 00:50:39,122
Speaker 3: I mean, Hernandez unleashed scale of violence not before seen

864
00:50:39,282 --> 00:50:44,042
Speaker 3: in Honduras. He deployed the army and the police created

865
00:50:44,082 --> 00:50:47,321
Speaker 3: a whole new militarized police force in order to run

866
00:50:47,362 --> 00:50:52,242
Speaker 3: this criminal enterprise, which, by the way, led to huge

867
00:50:52,362 --> 00:50:57,522
Speaker 3: amounts of targeted killings of journalists, of defenders, of lawyers,

868
00:50:57,522 --> 00:51:02,522
Speaker 3: of political opponents, of children, of women, and two hundreds

869
00:51:02,522 --> 00:51:07,002
Speaker 3: of thousands of Honduans fleeing the country to immigrate to

870
00:51:07,082 --> 00:51:11,321
Speaker 3: the US. Right, the man responsible for that, I've been

871
00:51:11,362 --> 00:51:15,722
Speaker 3: transporting tons and tons and tons of cocaine to the US.

872
00:51:16,282 --> 00:51:19,522
Speaker 1: Yeah, the US described it as him making a cocaine

873
00:51:19,602 --> 00:51:22,482
Speaker 1: highway from Latin America to the US.

874
00:51:22,802 --> 00:51:27,082
Speaker 3: Yeah, Honduras before the coup was not a major player

875
00:51:27,122 --> 00:51:29,962
Speaker 3: in the cocaine trade, but a couple of years after

876
00:51:29,962 --> 00:51:33,482
Speaker 3: the coup, around eighty percent of the cocaine coming from

877
00:51:33,482 --> 00:51:38,761
Speaker 3: the South was transiting through Honduras. Eighty purl right, I mean,

878
00:51:39,362 --> 00:51:42,801
Speaker 3: the coup as well as unleashing this sort of pro

879
00:51:43,002 --> 00:51:47,482
Speaker 3: business extractive nightmare on the country, it turned Honduras into

880
00:51:47,522 --> 00:51:51,281
Speaker 3: a major player in the international drug trafficking trade. And

881
00:51:51,681 --> 00:51:56,802
Speaker 3: the person found guilty by a US jewry and sentenced

882
00:51:56,802 --> 00:52:00,482
Speaker 3: to forty five years was pardoned by Trump weeks before

883
00:52:01,082 --> 00:52:05,562
Speaker 3: Nicholas Madua and his wife were illegally producted from Venezuela

884
00:52:05,602 --> 00:52:09,042
Speaker 3: and transported to a gel. I mean, the joke here

885
00:52:09,241 --> 00:52:12,602
Speaker 3: was the bed was still and I just left. The

886
00:52:12,602 --> 00:52:15,002
Speaker 3: bed was still warm when Madua LANDI did in it.

887
00:52:15,602 --> 00:52:19,642
Speaker 1: So wow, Okay, So all of this can be very

888
00:52:19,882 --> 00:52:23,562
Speaker 1: depressing and disheartening for activists, right that It's like, man,

889
00:52:24,082 --> 00:52:27,202
Speaker 1: the more so it's it's always hard, you're never winning,

890
00:52:27,282 --> 00:52:30,002
Speaker 1: and then when you do, when you know, you up

891
00:52:30,042 --> 00:52:33,761
Speaker 1: your chances of being assassinated. Let's talk a little bit

892
00:52:33,762 --> 00:52:37,802
Speaker 1: about the lasting impact that Bertha had on the movement.

893
00:52:37,962 --> 00:52:42,282
Speaker 1: Other than I mean, there was this unintentional negative impact

894
00:52:42,402 --> 00:52:44,402
Speaker 1: of like there was all this time that was that

895
00:52:44,522 --> 00:52:46,882
Speaker 1: was spent on trying to get justice for Bertha, and

896
00:52:47,002 --> 00:52:50,082
Speaker 1: like that took away from other things. But what are

897
00:52:50,122 --> 00:52:52,281
Speaker 1: some of the things that she helped to put in

898
00:52:52,362 --> 00:52:55,482
Speaker 1: place that are still there now and maybe coming back

899
00:52:55,482 --> 00:52:56,801
Speaker 1: to life a little bit now too.

900
00:52:57,402 --> 00:53:04,201
Speaker 3: Her family and Copine always sayle but the die she multiplied,

901
00:53:04,282 --> 00:53:07,042
Speaker 3: and I think that's really true. I mean, honestly, I've

902
00:53:07,082 --> 00:53:10,361
Speaker 3: been the last decade, the amount of places that I've been,

903
00:53:10,721 --> 00:53:15,842
Speaker 3: where I've seen murals or slogans like commemorating birthday, friends

904
00:53:15,962 --> 00:53:19,922
Speaker 3: traveling in places in different continents send me photos of

905
00:53:20,161 --> 00:53:23,522
Speaker 3: of sort of these you know, yeah, these braffiti or

906
00:53:23,562 --> 00:53:24,522
Speaker 3: pictures or whatever.

907
00:53:24,802 --> 00:53:26,481
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that you.

908
00:53:26,362 --> 00:53:29,962
Speaker 3: Know her because of who she was, and because she

909
00:53:30,161 --> 00:53:34,201
Speaker 3: was so well known internationally, right in indigenous movements, in

910
00:53:34,282 --> 00:53:39,002
Speaker 3: local struggles in every continent that she she left. Anyone

911
00:53:39,042 --> 00:53:42,482
Speaker 3: who ever met her has never forgotten her. But now,

912
00:53:42,562 --> 00:53:45,681
Speaker 3: what I find really like incredible, and Gustava talked a

913
00:53:45,681 --> 00:53:48,082
Speaker 3: lot about this is that people who were too young

914
00:53:48,122 --> 00:53:50,921
Speaker 3: to remember but when she was alive, or who never

915
00:53:51,042 --> 00:53:54,922
Speaker 3: met her are inspired by her. I as just one example,

916
00:53:55,122 --> 00:53:59,161
Speaker 3: I was contacted by a young Mexican woman a couple

917
00:53:59,201 --> 00:54:03,241
Speaker 3: of months ago, who has liber She studying literature in Montreal,

918
00:54:03,882 --> 00:54:06,522
Speaker 3: and she'd come across my book which is which is

919
00:54:06,562 --> 00:54:09,882
Speaker 3: available in French, right, and she'd read it and Bertha's

920
00:54:09,882 --> 00:54:12,642
Speaker 3: story inspired her to write a short story which has

921
00:54:12,681 --> 00:54:14,562
Speaker 3: now been published in the book. So it's sort of

922
00:54:14,842 --> 00:54:20,042
Speaker 3: inspired art, it's inspired documentaries, it's inspired social movements, it's

923
00:54:20,042 --> 00:54:24,361
Speaker 3: inspired sort of grants and educational opportunities, and I think

924
00:54:24,482 --> 00:54:27,801
Speaker 3: that is Yes, her loss has been huge, and I

925
00:54:27,842 --> 00:54:30,562
Speaker 3: don't leaders like Berta do not come along very often,

926
00:54:30,602 --> 00:54:33,082
Speaker 3: and I think we really feel her absence. I mean

927
00:54:33,522 --> 00:54:36,682
Speaker 3: every time there's a scandal in Honduras, so before every election,

928
00:54:36,922 --> 00:54:39,402
Speaker 3: Like I think it's a gut puncher everyone because you

929
00:54:39,442 --> 00:54:42,721
Speaker 3: miss her voice, you miss her analysis, you miss her clarity.

930
00:54:43,241 --> 00:54:45,801
Speaker 3: But who she was and why she has missed so

931
00:54:45,922 --> 00:54:49,922
Speaker 3: much means that she continues to inspire a social movements,

932
00:54:49,962 --> 00:54:54,282
Speaker 3: activist leaders around the world, and I think that is real.

933
00:54:54,562 --> 00:54:57,401
Speaker 3: And I think over the last few years, I think

934
00:54:57,442 --> 00:55:00,082
Speaker 3: her organization copy In which is now led by her

935
00:55:00,122 --> 00:55:04,761
Speaker 3: second eldest daughter, Berthida, has has moved from being in

936
00:55:04,802 --> 00:55:10,201
Speaker 3: this potectual crisis mode to looking forward to taking actions

937
00:55:10,241 --> 00:55:15,522
Speaker 3: proactive back and organizing around community land struggles and energy again.

938
00:55:15,602 --> 00:55:18,721
Speaker 3: And I think some of these sort of regional bodies

939
00:55:18,762 --> 00:55:21,842
Speaker 3: and confidences and so forth, that people just didn't have

940
00:55:21,922 --> 00:55:25,242
Speaker 3: the time or energy your heart for a backup and running.

941
00:55:25,322 --> 00:55:27,522
Speaker 2: So I think it's been a really slow process.

942
00:55:27,562 --> 00:55:32,522
Speaker 3: I think her absence is really it still felt really

943
00:55:32,562 --> 00:55:36,002
Speaker 3: sort of starkly, but I think who she was and

944
00:55:36,082 --> 00:55:39,241
Speaker 3: her leadership and her clarity and her courage. She said

945
00:55:39,241 --> 00:55:40,921
Speaker 3: this to me when I interviewed her that one time.

946
00:55:41,002 --> 00:55:43,442
Speaker 3: She's like, please, don't think that I'm not afraid. I

947
00:55:43,482 --> 00:55:45,921
Speaker 3: am afraid, but this is what I'm meant to be doing.

948
00:55:46,042 --> 00:55:49,762
Speaker 3: And to me, courage is being afraid and keeping going anyway.

949
00:55:49,962 --> 00:55:53,161
Speaker 3: And I think her courage is inspiring and it continues

950
00:55:53,201 --> 00:55:57,922
Speaker 3: to sort of motivate people and movements around the world today.

951
00:55:58,882 --> 00:56:03,642
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, it's the kind of inspiration we all need

952
00:56:03,681 --> 00:56:06,562
Speaker 1: more of these days. I just want to play some

953
00:56:06,602 --> 00:56:10,002
Speaker 1: short clips here from the commemoration of Bertha's life that

954
00:56:10,082 --> 00:56:14,162
Speaker 1: happened this week. Asperanza Mina gathered these from various friends

955
00:56:14,201 --> 00:56:16,761
Speaker 1: that were there. First, we're going to hear from Bertha's

956
00:56:16,802 --> 00:56:20,721
Speaker 1: daughter Laura Zunjega Casseres.

957
00:56:21,161 --> 00:56:31,002
Speaker 7: Yo a viesanos the l No acceptamos lamerte comusi stemma

958
00:56:32,522 --> 00:56:41,442
Speaker 7: k domin al mundo, no acesia, no acept lagera. Keremos

959
00:56:41,522 --> 00:56:50,242
Speaker 7: construir associas the past, the terna, the revel dia, care alternativas.

960
00:56:49,522 --> 00:56:50,002
Speaker 6: The vidra.

961
00:56:51,161 --> 00:56:54,681
Speaker 1: She says, today, ten years after the assassination of my mom,

962
00:56:55,002 --> 00:56:57,241
Speaker 1: we say again that we do not accept death as

963
00:56:57,282 --> 00:57:00,282
Speaker 1: a system that dominates the world. We do not accept violence,

964
00:57:00,322 --> 00:57:03,242
Speaker 1: We do not accept war. We want to build peaceful

965
00:57:03,282 --> 00:57:09,122
Speaker 1: societies of tenderness, of rebellion that can create alternative ways

966
00:57:09,122 --> 00:57:14,922
Speaker 1: of life. Bertha's friend, LINKA leader Rosselina Domingez, also spoke

967
00:57:15,042 --> 00:57:18,202
Speaker 1: at the ceremony, telling the crowd Bertha empowered us women

968
00:57:18,722 --> 00:57:21,922
Speaker 1: to fight for our rights as indigenous people. We are

969
00:57:22,002 --> 00:57:24,962
Speaker 1: no longer afraid of the army, or police or judges.

970
00:57:25,322 --> 00:57:28,682
Speaker 1: Bertha planted this rebellion and we continue to advance in

971
00:57:28,802 --> 00:57:32,362
Speaker 1: her honor. After the ceremony, she talked about her role

972
00:57:32,602 --> 00:57:36,322
Speaker 1: as women's coordinator for Bertha's organization, Copine.

973
00:57:36,562 --> 00:57:45,202
Speaker 8: Para important moer is sorely and case well, look, you

974
00:57:45,362 --> 00:57:56,962
Speaker 8: know the hoperela demas compagners is a verbatnos.

975
00:57:57,042 --> 00:58:01,602
Speaker 1: Amir says for me, that role is very important as

976
00:58:01,642 --> 00:58:05,242
Speaker 1: a woman, following in the footsteps of our colleague Bertha Caserres,

977
00:58:05,602 --> 00:58:08,642
Speaker 1: who left us with the legacy that we can lead

978
00:58:08,722 --> 00:58:10,922
Speaker 1: our fellow women and know that we also have the

979
00:58:11,162 --> 00:58:24,322
Speaker 1: voice to defend and protect ourselves. And that's it for

980
00:58:24,562 --> 00:58:27,921
Speaker 1: this episode. Again, check out Nina's book if you want

981
00:58:28,042 --> 00:58:31,042
Speaker 1: to learn more about Berta Casertas. Also go and read

982
00:58:31,722 --> 00:58:35,682
Speaker 1: the story that she wrote for the website on Bertha

983
00:58:35,882 --> 00:58:38,802
Speaker 1: and the ten year anniversary. There's a ton more background

984
00:58:38,842 --> 00:58:43,162
Speaker 1: information and really interesting details about Bertha and her life

985
00:58:44,442 --> 00:58:47,322
Speaker 1: and all the things going on and Ondoa since her

986
00:58:47,482 --> 00:58:50,922
Speaker 1: death in that story that's at drilled dot Media. You

987
00:58:51,042 --> 00:58:55,122
Speaker 1: can also sign up for our newsletter there. You can

988
00:58:55,242 --> 00:59:00,042
Speaker 1: also donate to support our reporting there and find all

989
00:59:00,242 --> 00:59:04,722
Speaker 1: kinds of other stories and resources as well. Check it out.

990
00:59:05,362 --> 00:59:07,202
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

991
00:59:12,162 --> 00:59:12,322
Speaker 6: Po