1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Warning. 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: This episode contains discussions of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: If you are a loved one is struggling with suicidal thoughts, 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: please call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at three and 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: four and huddled in the backseat of the VWS square back. 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: My fingers are dusty from the dirt of the community garden. 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: The patched knees of my jeans are caked and brown. 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: The community garden is a city of square plots with 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: this figot in the middle. It's a sea of green 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: beans and lettuce. There's no room to grow at home. 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: It's communism and free choice in the land of the people. 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: It's ideals. I don't understand. Home is a left out 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: of the parking lot, and we always turn left out 14 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: of the parking lot and go home after. But today 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: Dad turns right, and I can hear my heart and 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: my ears when I reached my thumb into my mouth. 17 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: I have never turned right out of the parking lot. 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: And what is up this hill? What is beyond these gardens? 19 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: How far does this road go? And where will it 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: lead us? We are lost, Dad says, And it's laughter 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: in his voice and cunning. Let's get lost, he shouts, 22 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: And am I alone in the car? And how far 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: do we drive? Lost? The word throbs through my head 24 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: like lightning, and I can't see out the window, but 25 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: I strained to see something I recognize, and my thumb 26 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: is in my mouth. And then I close my eyes, 27 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: but I still see him wild at the wheel. He 28 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: drives a cartoon car with television abandoned. We are lost. 29 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: That's Julia Mackenzie Muonemo, reading from her new memoir The Bookkeeper. 30 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: Julia grew up beneath the shadow cast by her father's 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: mental illness and suicide. You might think that this would 32 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: be her family secret, But the secrets surrounding Julia's father 33 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: involve dusty paperbacks written under a variety of pen names, 34 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: hidden in a box that Julia couldn't bring herself to 35 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: open or face for the longest time. I'm Danny Shapiro, 36 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: and this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept 37 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 38 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. Tell me about the landscape 39 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: of your childhood, you know, I would say the landscape 40 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: of my childhood was sort of like indoors and somewhat anxious. 41 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: I came home from school and I found my mom 42 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: in the TV room. Most of the time, she worked 43 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 1: from home, and her office was just outside the TV room, 44 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: and we would sort of gather there and watch soap 45 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: operas all afternoon. She periodically had to dash off to 46 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: answer her business phone, but that was really our time together. 47 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: And you know, I vaguely knew that I had friends 48 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: who did sports or other things after school. Even my 49 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: siblings did sports and other things after school, but I 50 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: wasn't interested in that. For most of my childhood. I 51 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: really needed to be near my mom, and that's where 52 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: she was. What soap operas did you watch? What was her? Um? 53 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,119 Speaker 1: The Guiding Light was the big one, that's what That's 54 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: what came on right at three o'clock, was around the 55 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: time I got home. Um, but on like half days 56 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: or vacation that you know, they're whatever the ones were 57 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: on Channel three. But that was what it was in Northampton. 58 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: So we were the Guiding Light side of things, not 59 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: the general hospital side of things. It was kind of 60 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: a war, yeah, I was. I was more of a 61 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: general hospital kid myself, so almost everybody was Yeah, So 62 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: the other place I spent a lot of time as 63 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: a child was at um My mother was a nikedo 64 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: instructor and she ran a dojo a couple of miles 65 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: away from home, and so I spent a lot of 66 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: time there with her on weeknights and Saturday mornings, and 67 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, sort of watching her throw people around. And 68 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: it was not anything that was interesting to me. I 69 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: wasn't interested in niketo. I wasn't there to study. I 70 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: was there just to make sure that she was safe. 71 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: I think I spent a lot of my childhood kind 72 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: of paying attention to my mom and making sure that 73 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: she was alive. There was this big absence, which was 74 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: my father, who was always missing, and you know, sort 75 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: of the absence also of talking about the fact that 76 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: he was missing. We didn't really, I didn't really do that. 77 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: We didn't talk about him or mourning him or missing him. 78 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: We just sort of plotted along with soap operas and 79 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: aikido and things like that. Describe your mother a little 80 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: bit for me. My mother, I think before my father's death, 81 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: and I think certainly before we were born, I think 82 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: she was a very vibrant, socially active woman. You know, 83 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 1: they hosted dinner parties all the time they traveled the world. 84 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: They had lots of friends. After his death, a lot 85 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: of with friends I think sort of faded away, you know, 86 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: some remained, but a lot of them didn't, And so, 87 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of a lonely time. And I 88 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: think my mother sort of wore the suit of that 89 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: almost as an armor. You know. She would never have 90 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: said that she was lonely, and she wouldn't call herself lonely. 91 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: Now she you know, lives alone and says she's happy 92 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: to do that. But I see her as lonely, and 93 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: I think I saw her as lonely as a child too. 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: She's incredibly intelligent. She's one of the smartest people I know. 95 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: We had a joke when we were little that she 96 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: didn't know the answer to something, she would just make 97 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: it up, and often the made up answer was better 98 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: than the real answer, so we liked it better. I 99 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: always trusted her implicitly to sort of see us through 100 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: whatever needed seeing through. You know, she was a fierce 101 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: advocate for us when she felt that people had wronged us. 102 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: So there was a time when I was placed in 103 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: an English class that she thought was below me. In 104 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: high school, and I just remember her kind of charging 105 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: in and talking to the guidance counselor and taking over, 106 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: and you know, my whole curriculum shifting as a result, 107 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: much for the better, obviously, but that was work. I 108 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: don't know that I would have ever done right. I 109 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: didn't see it really as a lack and so that 110 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: my mom kind of came to my defense. She advocates 111 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: for us when she needs to. Yeah, you know, she's 112 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: fears she's a niketoist, right. She was one of the 113 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: highest ranking female aketoists in the country who was in Japanese. 114 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: How did your mother and father meet? They met at 115 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: a bar in New York City, um called the Riviera. 116 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: So when they met, they were both married to other 117 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: people and were introduced by a mutual friend. And my 118 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: understanding is that it was just kind of immediate that 119 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: spark was was quite alive right away. And my mother's 120 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: marriage first marriage was very young, and she very quickly 121 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: discovered that he was an alcoholic and there were all 122 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: sorts of lives that he had told her, and she 123 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: was able to get that marriage annulled. So I grew 124 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: up with the sense of, like my mother was sort 125 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: of married before, but there's this word that means she 126 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: really wasn't ever married before, and it's annulment, so she 127 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: had her marriage annulled. My father was married to a 128 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: Dutch woman who I always understood to have been around 129 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: for not a very long time, much like my mom husband. 130 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: Doing research for my book, I learned that she had 131 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: been around for actually quite a long time. They were 132 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: married for a while, but he left her, and he 133 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: and my mom got on a freight ship and sailed 134 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: across the Atlantic to write books under contract for various 135 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: sort of what they called factories of paperback originals, these 136 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: publishing houses that just kind of put out what my 137 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: mother would describe as trashy novels, And so they had 138 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: contracts to write those, and I have pictures of them 139 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: on that ship, sitting in there underpants, you know. Add 140 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: two typewriters romantic huh, a couple newly in love sailing 141 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: across the ocean on a freighter, pecking away at their 142 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: twin typewriters turning out trashy, pulpy novels, sort of like f. 143 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald, the non literary version. These are 144 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: the kinds of books that might display a man and 145 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: a woman wrapped in all manner of torrid embraces on 146 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: our paperback covers. It's so interesting that very often in 147 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: that generation, if there were early marriages and there were 148 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: no kids, especially if they were brief marriages or even 149 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: more especially annulled, the kids would never have known. Parents 150 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't have told. So that wasn't a secret. No, we knew. 151 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: There were things that a lot of people would have 152 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: kept from us that my mother just insisted on being 153 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: truthful about. And so the whole sort of definition of 154 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: secret in our family is feels a little different. Julia's 155 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: mom and dad were from very different backgrounds. Her father 156 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: was Jewish, raised in Brooklyn by Holocaust survivor parents who 157 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: were Orthodox. Her mother was raised in Albany in a 158 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 1: waspy family who were members of the local country club. 159 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: Her dad's mother is very unhappy that he's marrying a 160 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: non Jewish girl, super unhappy, and that doesn't change as 161 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: they start to have kids. The story is that she 162 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: said to my mom while she was laboring with my sister, 163 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: who's the oldest. You know you're not religious anyway, Susie, 164 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: So why don't you just convert, and my mom was like, 165 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: it's because I'm not religious that I can't convert. Right, 166 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: I have a sort of moral compass about this. So 167 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: you know whether or not that conversation happened actually during 168 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: her labor, I cannot confirm, but that's sort of the 169 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: legend way to choose a moment. Tell me about what 170 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: you remember of your father. Yeah, my memories are spare um, 171 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: although I started to develop more as I was writing. 172 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: I remember this sort of you know, this larger than 173 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: life figure. I just he was physically enormous, you know, 174 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: very tall, strong and muscular, and you know, sort of 175 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: dark hair, mustache, glasses, this kind of not really Clark Kent, 176 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: but he felt like a superhero to me. Right. I 177 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: definitely stories from friends of his about the way he 178 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: yelled my name when I came into a room, or 179 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: um sort of the way he held us and how 180 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: much he loved us. So there was the sense of 181 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: this warm kind of they're like figure, And I don't 182 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: mean teddy bear, I really mean like sort of animal 183 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: kind of again. Vibrant also, you know the word I 184 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: used to describe my mother too. I think that there 185 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: was a vibrancy to him, and my brother certainly talks 186 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: about the sort of before and after. The dad he 187 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: knew before his illness set in was just you know, 188 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: he was Daddy. He was this loving, larger than life figure. 189 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: You're the youngest of three, I'm the youngest of three. 190 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: And what's the age difference between you and your older siblings. 191 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: So my brother is three years older and my sister 192 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: is five years older, so enough of an age difference 193 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: that they would really have had much more concrete memories. Yeah, 194 00:11:53,120 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: they definitely knew him better than I did. Will be 195 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: back in a moment with more family secrets. Julia's father 196 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: is frequently absent. He's looking for nothing less than the 197 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: meaning of life. It starts with the practice of Aikido, 198 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: which both of her parents become deeply involved in, but 199 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: then he branches out into other philosophies and spiritual seeking. 200 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: I don't know that he always knew what he was seeking, 201 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: but I think a sense of sort of answers he 202 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: had a he had a kind of quest to understand 203 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: cosmos in a way, I think he wanted there to 204 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: be something better than, something bigger, and he wanted to 205 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: be a part of it. He went on sort of 206 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: any excursion that would take him into the path of 207 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: someone he thought was sort of enlightened, right, So he 208 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: went to see the Dalai Lama speak he would go 209 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: on a retreat, eat and meditate for days on end. 210 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: So when I was I think two and a half, 211 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: he left for one such retreat, and it was at 212 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: ten days, and it was the kind of retreat where 213 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: I believe that it was meditation primarily, and there's a 214 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: teacher who you follow, and he was very eager to 215 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: impress the teacher, and he was very eager to return enlightened. 216 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,119 Speaker 1: He felt that he was sort of ready to receive enlightenment, 217 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 1: whatever that might mean. And so his plan, which I 218 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: believe he executed, was to go there and in addition 219 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: to meditating all the time, also not sleep and I 220 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: believe eat as little as possible. So he was really 221 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: sort of taking this ten day retreat to an extreme, 222 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: and it didn't go well. So he had an altercation 223 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: with the teacher, who pointed out to him that the 224 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: quest for enlightenment was not one you could speed up 225 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: or compete to win. It was really a journey, and 226 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: he didn't like that at all. Julia's father sort of 227 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: falls apart. On this retreat, he steals a sacred bowl, 228 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: and then he escapes and drives back home. While he 229 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: was driving home, my mother got a phone call that 230 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: that it hadn't gone well and that he didn't look 231 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: right when he left. And this is actually, this is 232 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: a memory that I have, is um the moment that 233 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: he came home, which you know, the memory is very vague. 234 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: I was very young, but just this image of him 235 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: walking in the door pretty obviously transformed physically, not the 236 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: dad who had left. And in the image that I have, 237 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: he's just sort of standing in the entranceway of the house, 238 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: looking pretty rattled and confused, and he turns and looks 239 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: at me and starts coming towards me, and I don't 240 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: I don't think anything horrible happen next. But that's where 241 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: my memory sort of shut out. And so that was 242 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: his what his family says is his first breakdown. Are 243 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: sort of the family lore that that was his first breakdown, 244 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: and he didn't really ever come back from that one. 245 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: So he spent a lot of you know, the next 246 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: two years two and a half years in and out 247 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: of psychiatric institutions and in and out of therapy. There 248 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: weren't the same kind of treatment then, so um, he 249 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: didn't like the treatments that there were that he didn't 250 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: like the way they made him feel. Um. And he 251 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: was really, really smart, and you know, one of the 252 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: things that he could do quite well was sort of 253 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: trick a therapist into into thinking that he was better, 254 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: better enough to sort of lower their guard. And so 255 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: then in probably November of the year that I was five, 256 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: he agreed to go to a psychiatric institution in western 257 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: Massachusetts called Austin Rigs, which I don't think anyone knew 258 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: very much about at the time, but it was a 259 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: place that he was willing to go because, like James 260 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: Taylor had gone there to kick a habit or something, 261 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: it felt like a place that he could respect. There 262 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: were people he respected who had gone there, and he 263 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: went and it turned out not to be the kind 264 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: of facility that was prepared to deal with his level 265 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: of illness. And he was there for a month. He 266 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: came home briefly at Christmas to see us, and went 267 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: back to the hospital, and on January five, he hanged 268 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: himself in his hospital room. Did you know right away 269 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: as a five year old what suicide talked about Yes, 270 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: I did as a five year old to know that 271 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: his parents wanted us to be told that he had 272 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: had a heart attack, and my mother was unwilling to 273 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: lie to us, and we also knew that we also 274 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: knew that his parents wanted us to know that he 275 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: had an heart attack, so we knew from the beginning 276 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: that it was a suicide. I didn't know the method 277 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: of that suicide. My sister and brother both did, at 278 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: least earlier than I did. My mother was certain the 279 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: line to us was not the solution that we needed 280 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: to know that it was suicide. We had known he 281 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: was mentally ill. I think we didn't use words like 282 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: schizophrenic or bipolar at that time, but we knew that 283 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: he was mentally ill, and the suicide was not kept 284 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: a secret. But it wasn't for several years until she 285 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: told me that that he had hanged himself. And that 286 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: just that piece took up a lot of space in 287 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: my imagination as a very young child, not knowing how 288 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: he had committed suicide, I spent a lot of time like, oh, well, 289 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: did he shoot himself? No, where would he have gotten 290 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: a gun. He was in a psychiatric institution. Did he 291 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: slid his wrists, Like again, where would he have gotten 292 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: the razor blade? I was sort of plagued by this question. 293 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: And when I did finally find out that we know, 294 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: when my mother told me that he hanged himself, I 295 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: still had the questions because I didn't know with what 296 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: I was so sort of fixated on these details as 297 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: a kid. Just think of the imagination of a very 298 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: young child, a precocious, creative child, thinking about how her 299 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: father took his own life. Julia doesn't ask her mother, 300 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: it's just too hard. It was years before she learned 301 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: that he had hanged himself with his belt. Julia survives 302 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: the tragic loss of her father, grows up, excels intellectually 303 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: and academically, and heads off to bar to college. At 304 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: what point do you meet the man who will become 305 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: your husband? M hmm, Very early in my last semester 306 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: of college. So I'm going it comes from Zimbabwe and 307 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: I was a student at Barred and they had an 308 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: exchange program with schools in South Africa and Zimbabwe as 309 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: part of a program in international education. And he arrived 310 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: at Bard in you know, early February, in the middle 311 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: of a snowstorm in clothes you might expect someone to 312 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: arrive from Africa in, right, like light pants that didn't 313 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: go all the way down to his ankles, and you know, 314 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: a sweater that he had probably bought at the airport. 315 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: He looked so out of place and so handsome. And 316 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: I've noticed in the minute he stepped into the cafeteria. 317 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: I'll never forget that moment. Yeah, what had been your 318 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: in a sort of dating life before that? I had 319 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: had a relatively serious boyfriend earlier in college who I 320 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: had felt great seriousness for. Right, I think that I was, 321 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: from a pretty young age, kind of seeking a partner 322 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: and like a family. I wanted that sense of security 323 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: and that sense of sort of constancy that I didn't 324 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: have as a child. And so I had sort of 325 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: attached myself to this white Jewish man in college and 326 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: that didn't last terribly long or end with any grace. 327 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: My best friend in college said to me at one 328 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 1: point when I was trying to figure out how I 329 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: was going to go forward and date someone, she said, 330 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: you know what, it was so great. You're not the 331 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: kind of girl but a man wants to date. You're 332 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: the kind of girl that a man wants to marry 333 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 1: and like college boys don't want to get married. And 334 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: what do you think she meant by that was it 335 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: is kind of a seriousness about the way that you 336 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: were taking your life that you know, a lot of 337 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: college students aren't kind of there yet. Yes, I had 338 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: taken time off between high school and college before it 339 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: was called a gap year and a cool thing to do. Um, 340 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: I had taken time off because I wasn't ready, so 341 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: I was a little bit older than the other people. 342 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: But yes, I was serious. I was interested in kind 343 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: of figuring out the great mysteries of my family, of 344 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: my dad, of what that meant, what his history meant 345 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: about who I was. I had this real, deep sense 346 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: that I needed to connect myself to someone so that 347 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: I would never be alone again. Right, of course, I'm 348 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: now much older and understand that that's impossible, but at 349 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: the time I just thought, well, isn't that what you 350 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: do right? You find love and you get committed and 351 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: and that person is your rock. And I think I 352 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: was really looking for a rock and lo and behold 353 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: in locked and Gone from Zimbabwe. And he too was 354 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: very serious and was very interested in these larger questions. 355 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: He too came from a family with lots of complexity 356 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: and also with mental illness, and we just had a 357 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: lot of questions and common and we were both willing 358 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: to sort of be that rock for each other from 359 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: very early on. I love that phrase, questions in common. 360 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: What a great way to go through life with a 361 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: partner with shared questions. And this is just what happens. 362 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: Julia and Goni become bonded and serious from the start. 363 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: They're together for two semesters and then Goni returns to Zimbabwe. 364 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: This is by now, and Zimbabwe is beginning to fall 365 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: apart politically. The university where he hopes to do his 366 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: graduate work to eventually become a professor is shut down. 367 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: Julia fears Forni's physical safety, but there is a way 368 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: he can come back on a fiance visa. As Julia 369 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: and Goni plan their wedding, there's one person she fears 370 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: isn't going to be happy about it. Remember her father's mother, 371 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: the Holocaust survivor who hadn't approved of Julia's parents marriage. 372 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,479 Speaker 1: Julia's grandmother had met and Gooni once and had been 373 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: rude to him. Tell me a bit about that encounter 374 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: with your grandmother when you went to see her and 375 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: tell her my grandmother was a you know, she obviously 376 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: had had more heartbreak in her life then really and 377 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: anyone should have had to survive. But as a result, 378 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: she was pretty broken. By this time. We had relatively 379 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: regular contact up to the time that I started dating Goni, 380 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: but she really did not approve and so communication had 381 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: already been tense for some time. But I think she 382 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: felt that she had sort of dodged a bullet when 383 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: he moved back to Zimbabwe. So when I came to 384 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: her to tell her that we were getting married, she 385 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: I don't think was ready for that news. She had 386 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: this very physical you know, she'd move her body, but 387 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: her face just I had never seen someone's face just 388 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: go white, and it was clear to me immediately that 389 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: this was it. This was the sort of breaking point 390 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: for us. And at first she cried. There were a 391 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: lot of tears. She then sort of exploded in anger. 392 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: And at this point where so we're at her condo 393 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: in a development for older people in Connecticut, and we're 394 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: moving between her living room and her kitchen, and she's 395 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: sort of having this breakdown. I think, you know something. 396 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: She stands at her counter in her kitchen and she 397 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: sort of punches her fists onto the counter and she 398 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: just says, to me, where will the children be? And 399 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: that's when I realized that it wasn't really about me 400 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: being white and going to being black. Her anxiety was 401 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: about what would come of the children of such a union. 402 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: And at the time it was so naive. But at 403 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: the time I was like, I have the answer to this. 404 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: This is so easy, right, because she also thought that 405 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: my mother and father were such a union that would 406 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: create children who didn't have a place. And so I said, oh, 407 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: but Grandma, look at me. I'm fine. No one wonders 408 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: what I am. I'm half Jewish, I'm half Christian. It's 409 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: not an issue. By the time our children are born, 410 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: it won't be an issue. Like I was. It was 411 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: just so naive, and you know, in love and wanted 412 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: love to answer all problems. But you know, she knew 413 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: much more than I did about racism and hatred and 414 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: what hatred could do to a people. Right, she had 415 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: lost a lot of people in the Holocaust, and you 416 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: know it had of course soured her. What I grapple 417 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: with is this question of why it soured her in 418 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: this particular way why she became what I see is 419 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: as really racist. So she asked me that question, where 420 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: will the childre and be? Ferociously I answered it. She 421 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: wasn't satisfied with my answer, and then she sort of 422 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: turned around and picked up this thing that I had 423 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: never You know, I'd spent some time in this condo 424 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: of hers. I had never seen it before, this strange 425 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: glass basket like thing. Was her grandmother genuinely concerned about 426 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: the future of Julia and Boni's children or was she 427 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: just using them as a cover for her own bigotry. Regardless, 428 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: it seemed impossible that she could get out of her 429 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: own way and realized that she was perpetrating the very 430 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: thing that had been done to her. In fact, she 431 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: was willing to lose her granddaughter over it. After we 432 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: had the rest of our conversation, which did not go well, um, 433 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: she told me, you know, if I was going to 434 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: marry and Gony, I could never come back to her. 435 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: I was heart of standing in the doorway with the 436 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: door open, ready to leave, and I turned around to 437 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: sort of say, are you sure do you really want 438 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: me to leave this way? Because I'm choosing and GONI 439 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: right if there's a choice, it's obvious to me. And 440 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: she thrust this glass basket thing into my hands and 441 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: close the door. And it was such a strange moment 442 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: for me. It was really surreal, you know. I sort 443 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 1: of walked back to my beat up Toyota Corolla and 444 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: put this basket on the seat next to me and 445 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: drove away. It was not the last time I saw her, 446 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: but it was last time I saw her for a 447 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: very long time. Do you think it was a wedding present? God, 448 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: I'm asking him, because you know the way you're describing it, 449 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: it's like wedding presents are often these strange glass things, right, 450 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: Like just it's like something maybe just happened in her 451 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: psyche that was like, I'm not going to see you again, 452 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: but you're getting married, and here's my gift. That's so funny. 453 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: I have never thought of that. Maybe, yeah, maybe it 454 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: felt like this heavy sort of talisman of her hatred. Right, 455 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: it was not. It's not something I held on too. 456 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: We'll be right back and Gooni and Julia Mary and 457 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: have two sons. They moved to Williamstown, Massachusetts, Whereon is 458 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: a professor at Williams College. It's a lovely town. They're 459 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: a lovely family living a lovely life. But there's a 460 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: secret lurking beneath the surface, because that's what secrets do. 461 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: They lurk. You knew that your father had written these 462 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: kind of pulpy novels, that this was what your parents 463 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: did when they traveled across the Atlantic, and this is 464 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: how he made his living, and he had all these 465 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: different pen names. You didn't know what the contents of 466 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: some of those novels were and what they would reveal 467 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: to you about his preoccupations and his psyche and this 468 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: whole kind of history. So can you maybe start from 469 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: your discovery about that. So when my first son was 470 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: born and was a toddler, and my cousin came to 471 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: visit us and sort of dropped this box of books 472 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: on my dining room table. And this is my cousin 473 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: on my mother's side, and so it was a surprise 474 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: to me that what they were were books my dad 475 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: had written. And they each had these very racially charged, 476 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: selecious covers on them. They were clearly pornography, and you know, 477 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: each one had a muscular black man in some form 478 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: of undressed with his wrists and chains and a sort 479 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: of stereotypically Southern bell type white woman. On the cover, 480 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: Julia's father wrote slave porn, or what was sometimes known 481 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: as plantation porn. This was a thing, a dreadful subgenre 482 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: of the trashy novel. There was an appetite for this 483 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: kind of racist kinkiness, enough so that Julia's father turned 484 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: out a whole bunch of them, along with the other 485 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: less offensive pulp. When my cousin plopped those books on 486 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: the counter, I was shocked. I was horrified. I was 487 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: certain I had never seen them. I couldn't believe that 488 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: anyone would want to bring them into a house with 489 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: this two year old child in it and let him 490 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: see them. I was just the whole thing. I was 491 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: filled with shame, and I didn't believe that my father 492 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: had written them. And she said to me, no jewels, 493 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: look in the back, right, and her mom had written 494 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: written by George Wolk on the back so that everyone 495 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: would remember, right, sort of posterity. I hid them away 496 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: when my cousin brought them to me, and continued to 497 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: hide them. You know, we moved a couple of times. 498 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: By the time we landed in Williamstown, I thought I 499 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: might be ready to face those books. We've moved around, 500 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: We've lived in Zimbabwe and Batswana and Virginia, and so 501 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: our stuff has been in storage for a long time. 502 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: And we're finally settling down and I think, oh, but 503 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna alphabetize all the books and I'm 504 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: just gonna put all of Dad's books out. I'm just 505 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: gonna see how that feels. And it immediately felt so 506 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: horrible that I packed them right back up and put 507 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: them in the back of the closet. How many of 508 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: them were there, But at this point I still just 509 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: had those four that my cousin had brought me um, 510 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: and I had no real sense of how many more 511 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: I might find. I didn't even have a sense of 512 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: wanting to find more. I just knew I didn't want 513 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: those books out in the world. He had written four 514 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: books under his own name that I did have on, 515 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: you know, alphabetized on my bookcase, but which I had 516 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: never read. And you know, people would ask me over 517 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 1: the years why I had never read them, and I 518 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: was like, well, yeah, I just I just don't think 519 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: he was probably a very good writer, and I don't 520 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: want to know about that. I want him to still 521 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: be some kind of a great person in my memory. Um, 522 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to be disappointed. And that was sort 523 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: of the story I told myself, and so then passed 524 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: forward more years. The kids are probably nine and twelve. Yeah, 525 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: they were nine and twelve. It was when Tamir Rice 526 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: was killed, you know, twelve year old African American boy 527 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: killed by a police officer. He had a toy gun 528 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: in his hand. And when that happened, Julius was also 529 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: turning twelve very soon, and I just was sort of 530 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: shattered awake. It was way too long in coming. I 531 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: had these boys who were nine and twelve, who are 532 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: growing up as black children in the United States. I 533 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: should have woken up much earlier than I did. But 534 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: when Tamir Rice was killed, I just I couldn't see 535 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: a future in which I didn't figure out who I was, 536 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: what my race meant in my household, what my legacy meant. 537 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: You know. I knew that I had been hiding these 538 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: books in my closet for ten years. So by this 539 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: point I know what I'm hiding, right, and I just 540 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: couldn't keep that up. I knew that it was time 541 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: for me to to face that history and to face 542 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: my whiteness. So at that point I sort of crept 543 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: to the closet and picked up one of these books, 544 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: and it was hard. It took months to read just 545 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: the first one. When your cousin first brought those books. 546 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: What was the quality of your response in that moment 547 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: at your kitchen table. Were you shocked or stunned or 548 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: was there more of a sense of Oh, I kind 549 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: of somewhere somewhere within me, I knew this. And this 550 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: This is where I have loved listening to your podcast 551 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: so much, because you talk about the unthought known? Is 552 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: that what it's called? Yes, ah, the unthought known? When 553 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: it comes to family secrets, this psychoanalytic phrase comes up 554 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: again and again what we know deep down absolutely no, 555 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: but cannot allow ourselves to think because it's just too dangerous. 556 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: Julia is certain that she's never seen these books before, 557 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: But when she mentions them finally to Goni and shows 558 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: him a particularly disturbing cover, he's strangely nonchalant, and he said, oh, yeah, 559 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: that one, And I was like, what do you mean 560 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: that one? And I was completely confused. When would he 561 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: have seen this? Did my mother show these to him? 562 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: And I just don't know. And I this time did 563 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: ask this question, and he said, you showed these to 564 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: me when we were dating. They were in the bottom 565 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,760 Speaker 1: shelf of a glass fronted bookcase in your mom's bedroom, 566 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: and you showed them to me. And I believe him entirely. 567 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: I mean, in part because he remembers it. He wouldn't 568 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: have made that up. But also I have no memory 569 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: of that. I can't even like construct the memory of that, 570 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: now that he's told me all the details. You know, 571 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: at what point did my shame kind of wash over 572 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: me and shut that down? You know? Was it that 573 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: I showed him one and saw the look on his 574 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: face and was so ashamed that I just pretended it 575 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: never happened. Maybe I think that's possible. Or was it later? 576 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: Was it after the kids were born? I was just 577 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: couldn't imagine that my father had made his living doing 578 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: this thing, but felt like it went so against who 579 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: my family was. I don't know, I don't know, but 580 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: in that moment at my kitchen counter, I was shocked 581 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: and believed I had never seen those books before. Um, 582 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: but that isn't true. It's so extraordinary the way we 583 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 1: can know and yet not be able to bear the thought, 584 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: and so the thought can really just vanish. And so 585 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 1: then when you do come back around and you are 586 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: actually interrogating these books for the first time, and you know, 587 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: as you said, it was very difficult to took a 588 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: long time to read. What was that feeling? Like, what 589 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: was the If you can bring back the feeling of 590 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: beginning to read this material, that's so horrifying. Yeah, So 591 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 1: at this time in my life, I was back in school, 592 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: I was getting an m f A. And I was 593 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: working with a writer who was so supportive of this 594 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: journey and really encouraging me to do it. And I said, 595 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: I can't, you know, I can't read these books. I 596 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: took a picture of it to show him, like some 597 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: of the covers, and I was like, how could you 598 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: expect me? You know, because it was a little residency 599 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: m f A, so we were we were very rarely 600 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: in person. I took a picture and I sent it 601 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: to him. I said, you can't expect me to read 602 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: these books. You know, this isn't even what I'm working 603 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: on right now, this isn't even my project. And he said, 604 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: I want you to read one book, and I want 605 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: you to trace physical description. Just write a write a 606 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 1: paper about how your father described black people and how 607 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: we described white people. I was like, okay, that's dumb, right, 608 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: Like I was at so dismissive of this idea. In 609 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: giving me an assignment, it gave me a path in 610 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: and now I felt like, well, I have to do this, right. 611 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: My professor told me that I have to do this, 612 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: and so I will. So I read the first one 613 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: over the course of I don't know, a month probably 614 00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 1: You know, these are not long books. They don't take 615 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: to read um, but I had to read them in 616 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: very small doses because they were really upsetting, right. I mean, 617 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: you know some people have when they hear the beginning 618 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: part of the story, Oh, my father wrote pornography that 619 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: you know. I've had friends before they know the whole story, 620 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: laugh and say, well, what's it like to read something 621 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: that your dad wrote? Have it turned you on? And 622 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: I was like, no, no, wait, no, that's not that's 623 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: not the problem. The problem, of course, was encountering her 624 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: father's racism right there in start well, black and White, 625 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: what has it been like for you to trace and 626 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: discover things, very uncomfortable things about your father's psychology By 627 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: becoming in a way, sort of a literary salue, and 628 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, trying to piece him together, this man that 629 00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: you know that you lost when you were five, and 630 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: that you make this really difficult discovery about. I went 631 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: into reading his books believing that they would hold the 632 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: key to his racism. That I once I could finally 633 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: read them and had sort of gotten over the hump 634 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: of that first one, which took me so long, I 635 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: was like, well, this is the key. This is the 636 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: place where I'm going to understand what made my dad 637 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: a racist and why he could make his living on stereotypes, 638 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: and what that reveals about the beliefs that he held, 639 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: even if they went against his kind of liberal politics. 640 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: So I went in with this very clear aim, and 641 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 1: I was frustrated, as makes sense, right, how does any 642 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: one of us trace our racism to its route? Right? 643 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: But that was sort of what I hoped I would 644 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,720 Speaker 1: be able to do with his books. What I didn't 645 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: expect was to trace his mental illness through his writing, 646 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: and certainly not through his writing under pseudonym I somehow 647 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: believed that I would learn some being about his mental illness. 648 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: It would be under his books that he wrote under 649 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 1: his own name, which it's foolish, right. No matter how 650 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: many different names he used, they were all him. And 651 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: so it was jarring to sort of enter this project 652 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: expecting to go on a journey about race and my 653 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: race and my husband's race, and the race of the 654 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: characters in my father's books, and end uh also taking 655 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: this sort of parallel journey into his mental illness. And 656 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,439 Speaker 1: so what I discovered was that in every single one 657 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: of his books, there was a hanging, There were multiple suicides. 658 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: There were many times his protagonist was black and was 659 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: someone who had either been stolen and was on the 660 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: slave ship or who was living as a slave. And 661 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: these men are often in his novels grappling with their sanity, 662 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: trying to do anything to stay sane. Julia's deep reading 663 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: into her father's books and her delving into his history 664 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: leads her into a greater awareness not only of his racism, 665 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 1: but also drives home the legacy of his mental illness. 666 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: Gooni too as a mentally ill father. What will this 667 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: mean for her two boys? One thing is certain, the 668 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: legacy of family secrets is one that is not being 669 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: passed down. Julia and Gooni's sons know about her father's 670 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 1: racist move They also are aware of the rocky shoals 671 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: of mental illness that exists in their genetic history. Because 672 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: this tough inheritance has not been covered up, it will 673 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: not fester. There's no cause for secrets because the shame 674 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: is not theirs to carry. You know, there are unanswerable 675 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: questions about the genetics of mental illness, and I mean, 676 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: one never wants to believe that this is the kind 677 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: of thing that could pass on to your children right 678 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: through your genes. And here are my children who have 679 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: two grandfathers who neither of whom they ever knew, both 680 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: of whom were mentally ill. It was a difficult journey 681 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: to take. It was uncomfortable most of the time. How 682 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: has it settled within you? You know, probably as much 683 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: as you can, as much as it's possible to know. 684 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: And now there are no more secrets. I guess I 685 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: would say I feel very lucky to have two sons 686 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: who are there now fourteen and seventeen, and they are 687 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: open to the world, right they're open to me. They're 688 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: very clear about who they are. They're they're very different 689 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: from each other, but there's very little about their sort 690 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: of inner psyche that feels like a mystery to me. Obviously, 691 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: the older one is beginning to do things that I 692 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: don't know the details of, and that's fine, but I 693 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: feel like I know who he is and how he is, 694 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: and that's also true for my fourteen year old. I'm 695 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: also married to a man who is so aware that 696 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: the world can kind of shift at any moment, which 697 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: is very handy at times like this. It's good to 698 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: sort of be grounded by someone who's like, yeah, well, 699 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: anything can happen. There can be a pandemic. What we 700 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: have control over is what's happening in our house. And 701 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: so he's also quite clear that we need to continue 702 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: that sort of vigil that I started as a teenager 703 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: and that I imagine he did too, to make sure 704 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: that our kids have what they need, but that we 705 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: don't have much control over over any of this, and 706 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: so really the best we can do is stay tuned 707 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: into them. What has become clear is how much it 708 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: matters to my kids that they know this history and 709 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: that not a secret. And if we had kept from 710 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: them my father's illness or my husband's father's illness, it 711 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,839 Speaker 1: would feel dangerous and it would feel probably like something 712 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: that couldn't talk to us about, and so it's so 713 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: important for them not to feel those those pressures that 714 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: secrets can bring. Family Secrets is an iHeart Media production. 715 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer and Bethan Mcaluso is 716 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: the executive producer. We'd also like to give a special 717 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: thanks to Tyler Klang and Tristan McNeil. If you have 718 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: a family secret you'd like to share, leave us a 719 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. 720 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,919 Speaker 1: Our number is one eight eight eight secret zero. That's 721 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: secret and then the number zero. You can also find 722 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Danny Ryder and Facebook at facebook 723 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,359 Speaker 1: dot com slash Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at fami 724 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 1: Secrets pot. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit 725 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 726 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.