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Speaker 1: Also media, Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to ikodefen here a podcast being recorded something like

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Speaker 2: nineteen hours into bargaining with managements, thus at the peak

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Speaker 2: of maximal derangements, and also about an hour after former

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Speaker 2: President Donald John Trump was convicted of thirty four felony

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Speaker 2: accounts of falsifying business records for his election time payoff

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Speaker 2: of Stormy Daniels. We can only hope that this will

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Speaker 2: bring voting race to a long suffering felons of Florida.

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Speaker 2: And realizing that kind of sounds like a joke, it's

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Speaker 2: actually not. It is in fact, really messed up that

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Speaker 2: you can just disenfranchise an entire class of people and

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Speaker 2: maybe the law hurting someone famous will do something good. Now,

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Speaker 2: that's all the time we have to talk about Trump

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Speaker 2: right now. You know, if you want, if you want

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Speaker 2: to hear more about that, you can go to literally

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Speaker 2: everyone who's ever done any media related thing. Ever, however,

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Speaker 2: we now have to talk about the other candidate in

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four election, Joe Biden, which means this

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Speaker 2: is all the fun you're getting for this episode. It

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Speaker 2: is now time for you to suffer and with me

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Speaker 2: to talk about suffering, and specifically the suffering of my Well,

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say my people like like one of

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Speaker 2: my people's question work, I don't know, identities complicated. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: you're more than one thing at a time. Is Karin Green,

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Speaker 2: who's part of a Southern transfem collective launching a very

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Speaker 2: long list of projects that you will be hearing you

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Speaker 2: out very shortly. She also used to be a work

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Speaker 2: on policy for the Equality Federation and for the Transientered

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Speaker 2: Law Center. Yeah, Karin, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, happy to be here, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm excited to get the opportunity to kind of talk

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Speaker 3: about maybe what is behind some of the press releases

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Speaker 3: and the HRC list of accomplishments that gets when I

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Speaker 3: complain about lack of action on transpolicy.

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Speaker 2: You know, I really should have looked this up the forehead.

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Speaker 2: But I once one of my friends dragged me in

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Speaker 2: college to a queer movie screening that I went to

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Speaker 2: because I hadn't eaten all day and they had food.

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Speaker 2: It ended up being this this really great little kind

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Speaker 2: of I think it's like an indie movie thing that's

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Speaker 2: about this group of queers robbing stealing a blood diamond

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Speaker 2: from the from the HRC. Great movie, ten out of ten.

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Speaker 2: I wish I remember what it was called.

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Speaker 3: In the movement at the time, we all joked that

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Speaker 3: HRC stood for peculiar Ron and Glinton rather than campaign

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Speaker 3: because of how in the tank they were.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, So, as as the listener may may have guests,

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Speaker 2: we need to talk about Joe Biden's quite frankly, really

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Speaker 2: terrible record on trans writes.

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Speaker 4: And to do that, we.

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Speaker 2: Need to talk a little bit about where the power

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Speaker 2: of the president comes from, because, you know, the sort

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Speaker 2: of traditional liberal wonk theories of the president tend to

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Speaker 2: either focus on like the discursive effects of what the

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Speaker 2: president says, or like the president's ability to like negotiate

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Speaker 2: with Congress to get bills passed. But this largely is

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Speaker 2: not where the president's power comes from. The president's power

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Speaker 2: comes from. I guess three things, two of which are

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Speaker 2: very similar. One is, you know, I mean just literally

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Speaker 2: the command of the military. Right the president, since since

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Speaker 2: Barack Obama, although Bush was doing similar things, has claimed

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Speaker 2: the legal authority to kill any man, woman, or child

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Speaker 2: the moment they leave us or regardless of her citizenship status.

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Speaker 2: This is this is the legal foundation of the drone

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Speaker 2: program and it is still in place to this day.

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Speaker 2: You know, the second one, I'm talking a lot about

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Speaker 2: Obama here because Obama weirdly established a lot of these

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Speaker 2: kind of legal frameworks. But you know, the second one

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Speaker 2: has to do with their ability to control the nation's

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Speaker 2: intelligence services. You know, I mean one of the things

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Speaker 2: that Obama did was personally coordinate the mess like multi

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Speaker 2: agency crackdown on occupy. And then the third thing, and

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Speaker 2: this is where really most of the power is is

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Speaker 2: through the unbelievably massive federal bureaucracy. So like I do

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Speaker 2: kind of get an assessed of this, and anytime you

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Speaker 2: hear the words the Department of that is the thing

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Speaker 2: the president has the ability to do shit with that.

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Speaker 2: That that is that is a very simplified version of it.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, when when when you're dealing with

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Speaker 2: an office's power is largely bureaucratic, it means that if

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Speaker 2: you want to figure out what they're actually doing, you

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Speaker 2: have to dig really deep into the depths of the

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Speaker 2: American bureaucracy. So okay, let's let's let's do that. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: first I want I want to ask you about p

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Speaker 2: p a c A one five five seven, which is

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Speaker 2: a part of the the Affordable Care Act. Otherwise, is

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Speaker 2: it still better known as Obamacare? Do the kids Obamacare?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they reclaimed it. I think the lips took it back.

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Speaker 4: I had.

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Speaker 2: I've been having this realization that people don't remember Obama

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Speaker 2: era stuff. Is why I'm saying. Oh, like I said,

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Speaker 2: I started saying Ferguson to people and they had no

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Speaker 2: idea what I was talking about. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, we ventured the k we ventured the disaster era.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, you can you talk about what that is

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Speaker 2: and what what it sort of says about what the

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Speaker 2: Biden administration isn't isn't doing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So, as you mentioned, it's part of the

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Speaker 3: Affordable Care Act, and so section fifteen fifty seven is

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Speaker 3: the regulatory implementation of the non discrimination.

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Speaker 5: Parts of the Affordable Care Act.

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Speaker 3: Back in the day when we were fighting to prevent

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Speaker 3: Trump from rolling back some fifteen fifty seven protections, we

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Speaker 3: actually are comf people came up with a much sexier

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Speaker 3: name than section fifteen fifty seven, but it never took

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Speaker 3: off with any of the policy people, and so I

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Speaker 3: don't even remember what I'm supposed to be calling it.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I never hear people say section fifteen fifty seven.

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Speaker 3: What they're referencing is the basically the non discrimination part

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Speaker 3: of the Affordable Care Act. And so the Affordable Care Act,

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Speaker 3: as people have probably noticed by now, touches practically all

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Speaker 3: of the US healthcare system and has extended, especially through

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Speaker 3: Medicaid expansion, federal dollars into healthcare even more than they

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Speaker 3: had been previously with the supplants for insurance through Medicaid

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Speaker 3: expansion and those kinds of things, And so there's actually

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Speaker 3: a lot of control that the Department of Health or

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Speaker 3: Health and Human Services and associated other parts of bureaucracy

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Speaker 3: like Center for Medicaid, Medicare Services, those kinds of things

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Speaker 3: have over implementation. And so one of the ways that

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Speaker 3: this works. Is when legislators write a law, they don't

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Speaker 3: go into all the details. They just pass a law.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: And so most times, especially at the federal level, after

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Speaker 3: a law has passed, the relevant agencies that are going

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Speaker 3: to be dealing with that part of the law work

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Speaker 3: on and issue rules or regulations. You might hear them

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Speaker 3: called either thing, but they mean the same thing, right.

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Speaker 3: So it's basically the additional agency policies and procedures that

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Speaker 3: they issue through the formal process governed by the Adminied

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Speaker 3: Rate Procedures Act. Very exciting, I know this is going

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Speaker 3: to be like just bombshell episode.

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Speaker 4: Terrible stuff is coming. Don't worry. Hold, oh you got

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Speaker 4: a hold on. It's going to get really bad.

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Speaker 3: I'm giving you the foundation to make sure you can

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Speaker 3: get maximally angry along with me. And so they create

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Speaker 3: the rest of the implementation of the laws at that

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Speaker 3: Congress passes, right. And so in this particular case, for

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Speaker 3: section fifteen fifty seven, it deals specifically with non discrimination,

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Speaker 3: So it deals with race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, any

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Speaker 3: any equality you can you can you typically find in

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Speaker 3: federal non discrimination laws actually in the fifteen fifty seven

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Speaker 3: and so it's obviously been kind of going back and

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Speaker 3: forth as a political football between the Obama administration and

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Speaker 3: then the Trump administration, and then I don't even know

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Speaker 3: if I'm going to give Biden credit for treating it

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Speaker 3: as a football. And so there's this regulatory process that

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Speaker 3: has been going forward and been rolled back and going

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Speaker 3: forward and been rolled back, and then simultaneousley there are

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Speaker 3: several I don't know the current number, but several court

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Speaker 3: cases over fifteen to fifty seven from various eras, like

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Speaker 3: I think there's still at least one case ongoing from

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Speaker 3: the Obama era fifteen fifty seven, there's some ongoing from

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Speaker 3: the Trump rag and then obviously folks might have seen

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Speaker 3: in the news that states like mine louisianatt that have

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Speaker 3: a governor and attorney general super focused on raising their

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Speaker 3: own profile have already filed suit against the recently issued

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Speaker 3: Biden era Section fifteen fifty seven regulation. And so there

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Speaker 3: is a lot of fighting around trans people specifically. Go figure.

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Speaker 3: It has been We've been hot right now for the

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Speaker 3: last four years or so. It's not been a super

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Speaker 3: exciting time, and it is actually impacted if you know

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Speaker 3: how to read the policy TA leaves. It has actually

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Speaker 3: impacted what we have gotten out of the Biden administration

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Speaker 3: in terms of actual trans policy. And I've been doing

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Speaker 3: transpolicy for a very long time, start at the state

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Speaker 3: level in Louisiana. You can't get paid to do a

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Speaker 3: queer policy in Louisiana. So I moved out to Oakland

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Speaker 3: to work for Transit Or Law Center for a while,

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Speaker 3: and that was actually where I created the joint Protect

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Speaker 3: trans Health campaign. It was actually the first ever coordinated

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Speaker 3: collaboration between the National Center for Changuer Quality and Transgeneral

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Speaker 3: Law Center. They had never formerly worked together on something before,

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Speaker 3: but for trans policy folks, Section fifty and most of

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Speaker 3: the country. Frankly, obviously, healthcare is like the thing right.

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Speaker 3: It's always been really terrible in this country, no matter what,

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Speaker 3: and so taking care of people's which should be a

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Speaker 3: right to access healthcare, has been really really important. I

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Speaker 3: kind of considered it since twenty seventeen the most important

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Speaker 3: trans policy issue to work on. And so this is

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Speaker 3: definitely kind of to the sense that you are a

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Speaker 3: nerd like me, and you have, you know, headline regulatory

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Speaker 3: actions that you're looking out for and hoping to influence

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Speaker 3: and doing things around this is kind of the premiere

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Speaker 3: regulatory action. In my opinion, in the trans polacy space,

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to what it should ideally do is safeguard

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Speaker 3: and guarantee trans people's access to healthcare, including gender affirming care.

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Speaker 3: It does not if you actually read the five hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty eight page final rule, But if you just

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Speaker 3: read like the press releases and the quotes that the

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Speaker 3: head of Human Rights Campaign give, you might have a

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Speaker 3: different understanding currently, And that's what I'm hoping we can

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Speaker 3: kind of get into today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and unfortunately before we get into that, we have

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Speaker 2: to do one of the other things that is required

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Speaker 2: of trans people, which is promoting capitalism if you want

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Speaker 2: to have a job.

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Speaker 4: So here are some ads.

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Speaker 2: God, we're going to end up with like some kept

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Speaker 2: paid ad from Aluisi at our rep or something.

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Speaker 3: Oh, they don't even need they have a superjority that

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Speaker 3: they've been flexing muscle on.

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Speaker 4: They don't need to.

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Speaker 6: They're fine, and we are back with some chili.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, let's talk about what has.

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Speaker 2: Been happening and what was actually in the rules that

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Speaker 2: no one who's not a bureaucrat or a policy activist

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Speaker 2: has actually read.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think a little more backgrounds will will

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Speaker 3: help you get just as angry as I need you

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Speaker 3: to be, which is you know, So the administration is large.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of people that work in the

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Speaker 3: executive branch, and a lot of them have, especially with

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Speaker 3: this administration, where a lot of folks actually did come

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Speaker 3: kind of directly from the Obama administration. They have relationships

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Speaker 3: with issue advocacy organizations. So most of the nationals, the

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Speaker 3: queer national organizations, avaccine nonprofits have relationships with executive branch folks.

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Speaker 3: And so when an executive branch agency like HHS is

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Speaker 3: working on a regulation that involves queer trans people, the

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Speaker 3: way it worked in the Obama administration, there was actually

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Speaker 3: very close collaboration between for example, the National Center for

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Speaker 3: Changing or Quality and the administration in the writing and

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Speaker 3: issuance of the first Obama era fifteen to fifty seven

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Speaker 3: productive regulation. And so before the election and then during transition,

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Speaker 3: the bid administration was obviously in contact back and forth

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Speaker 3: with all kinds of issue of secreups, not just the

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Speaker 3: queer movement but everybody, and they made commitments to the

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Speaker 3: queer movement that you know, it would be a fairly

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Speaker 3: smooth transition to working with them like we had worked

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Speaker 3: with the Obama administration. If you think back a little while,

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Speaker 3: that was before the kind of current fascist humanization campaign

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Speaker 3: had really kicked off, and so these commitments were made

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Speaker 3: kind of in the overturn window from before the last

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Speaker 3: four years of hell or three years of how however

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Speaker 3: you want a time it when they decided to come

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Speaker 3: after trans people so hard.

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Speaker 2: This was back in the kind of housey in days.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know if people remember this right now,

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Speaker 2: but like it used to be a thing where democratic

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Speaker 2: like presidential candidates would attack each other for not being

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Speaker 2: radical enough on trans healthcare. That was the thing that

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Speaker 2: happened on the debate stage in like twenty nineteen. It

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Speaker 2: feels like seven lifetimes ago now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And keep in mind that Biden. You know, every

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Speaker 3: six months he tweets that he has our back or whatever,

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Speaker 3: and then he's also called us the civil rights issue

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Speaker 3: of our time. So you know, there there are some

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Speaker 3: opportunities to question that and see if he stacks up.

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Speaker 3: And my personal and professional opinion, this is what I do,

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Speaker 3: is that he absolutely doesn't right. And so one of

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Speaker 3: the things that you would really really want out of

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Speaker 3: a section fifteen to fifty seven regulation in a context

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Speaker 3: where states have been passing trans healthcare bands, is that

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Speaker 3: you would want a section fifteen fifty seve regulation that

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Speaker 3: deals with preventing transcrimination and healthcare. You would want that

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Speaker 3: to strongly and efficiently preempt state bans against trans care

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Speaker 3: as violating a federal rule against non discrimination. And because

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Speaker 3: these things are you have to follow the Administrative Procedures

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Speaker 3: Act when you're issuing regulations as a federal agency, and

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Speaker 3: most states actually are the same a similar kind of process,

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Speaker 3: and so you kind of have to The agencies have

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Speaker 3: to show how they got to the final rule. So

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Speaker 3: they issue a draft rule, invite comment. There's a comment

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Speaker 3: period that you might have seen organizations asking you to

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Speaker 3: submit comments for before, and then they're actually required to

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Speaker 3: read and respond to all those comments. And so if

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Speaker 3: you actually pull up the fifteen fifty seven final rule,

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Speaker 3: it's actually one of it sounds like even wonkier than

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Speaker 3: for example, looking at a bill, But because of the

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Speaker 3: Administrative Procedures Act and the way they have to respond

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Speaker 3: to comments, there's actually a lot more kind of conversational

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Speaker 3: prose or not conversational, but you know, regular ask pros

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Speaker 3: and not terrifying legal language in this stuff. That is

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Speaker 3: them directly addressing comments people organizations have made and explaining

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Speaker 3: their reason. And so one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: think is most kind of emblematic of how we've been

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Speaker 3: failed and thrown under the bus is because of this

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Speaker 3: process where they have to kind of show you how

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Speaker 3: the sausage is made. You can look up in this

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Speaker 3: regulation and see that for some initial contacts, we were

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Speaker 3: promised this would come out year one, and then we

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Speaker 3: were promised it would come out year two, and then

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Speaker 3: year three, and then I have actually heard that they

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Speaker 3: were trying to push it, asked the election, and we

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Speaker 3: kind of forced their hand on it. So you can

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Speaker 3: tell that they initially wrote the first draft in this

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Speaker 3: regulation to kill healthcare bans, to federally preempt healthcare bands.

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Speaker 3: There's actually I did a Twitter thread on this about

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Speaker 3: how one sentence that existed in the draft version of

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Speaker 3: the fifteen to fifty seven role that one sentence alone

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Speaker 3: could take down. I think the one I used for

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Speaker 3: an example was Arkansas's trans healthcare ban or Missouri's actually

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Speaker 3: potentially because that what that sentence did is it laid

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Speaker 3: out very very clearly that a determination that trans healthcare

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Speaker 3: is never helpful or useful and can never be provided

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Speaker 3: does not meet the bar for considered medical reasoning, right,

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Speaker 3: and so states just can't do it. And that's fantastic,

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Speaker 3: because that is only what these healthcare bands do, right.

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Speaker 3: And many of them, I think the one I used

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Speaker 3: as an example even actually have include in the non

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Speaker 3: effective text kind of the whereas preamble section of their bands.

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Speaker 3: They can't help themselves. They go into all this flowery

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Speaker 3: language about how trans care is never good and it's

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Speaker 3: always harmful, in all this stuff right in garbage. And

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Speaker 3: this sentence spoke directly to those trans healthcare bands, and

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Speaker 3: it made a firm commitment to address them as a

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Speaker 3: whole as they were happening right at the federal government

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Speaker 3: to state level. And if you read the final rule,

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Speaker 3: you will get to see them strike that sentence out

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Speaker 3: and read their reasoning for striking that out. And so

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Speaker 3: you actually had this language that was very clear and

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Speaker 3: very strong, written very relatively early on in his term,

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Speaker 3: when at the time there were only a handful of

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Speaker 3: trans healthcare bands that had passed, right, And so it

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Speaker 3: didn't And so now I'm just offering conjectures and form conjecture,

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Speaker 3: conjecture informed by reading.

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Speaker 1: Policy tea leaves.

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Speaker 3: But it is my suspicion that at that time, because

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Speaker 3: there weren't that many trans healthcare bands to preempt, they

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Speaker 3: were more than willing to maintain, you know, to fulfill

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Speaker 3: their commitment to us and to issue the kind of

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Speaker 3: regulation that we had talked about. But as time went

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Speaker 3: on and the fascist humanization campaign started and ramped up,

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Speaker 3: and healthcare bands rapidly spread throughout the country. I've been

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Speaker 3: doing this for a decade and I've never seen anything

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Speaker 3: like this in any area of policy before. All of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, if you're holding a card that nuke's health

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Speaker 3: state healthcare bands, when you wrote it, that card was

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Speaker 3: only going to nuke a few two or three trans

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Speaker 3: healthcare bands, right, And if you're the federal government, you

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Speaker 3: know you can expect to steam rolls and just a

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Speaker 3: handful of states like that. But then later on, at

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Speaker 3: this point I forget the exact number, but it's something

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Speaker 3: like twenty twenty to twenty three states have healthcare bands implemented.

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Speaker 3: And now if you're holding a card that nuke's healthcare bands,

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Speaker 3: you don't really get to pick and choose which healthcare

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Speaker 3: bands you're going to. Now you're going to you have

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Speaker 3: to commit to new call of them if you play

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Speaker 3: that card, and that just was not something that they

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Speaker 3: seemed willing to do when it was going to make

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Speaker 3: the waves that it would make with you know, twenty

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Speaker 3: to twenty three or whatever, states being prete empted and

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Speaker 3: required to make sure that trans people have healthcare access.

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Speaker 3: And keep in mind that during this period, not just

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Speaker 3: did more states past these healthcare bands, but the kind

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Speaker 3: of national discussion and focus on trends people deteriorated horrifically, right,

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Speaker 3: And so not only were the stakes higher in terms

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Speaker 3: of the kind of policy confidence in projecting your politics,

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Speaker 3: but also there was just I assume those lanyards run

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Speaker 3: horrible polls all the time, right, and saw that we

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Speaker 3: were losing points in terms of how the public views

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Speaker 3: transpeople because there's a lot of money being poured into this,

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Speaker 3: and just made the horrible unethical and moral calculations that

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Speaker 3: democrats make decided that trans people weren't worth it. And

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Speaker 3: so you can see them across that strike that part

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Speaker 3: out of the final fifteen to fifty seven room, and

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Speaker 3: it no longer contains any language even approaching that that

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Speaker 3: is written to address states as a whole, and it

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Speaker 3: is mostly what is in there at this point is

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Speaker 3: the same thing that they've been telling us to do

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Speaker 3: for the last over a decade, which is, individual trans

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Speaker 3: people who just happened to encounter discrimination and health care,

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Speaker 3: you just submit an OCR complaint, an HHSOCR complaint. OCR

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Speaker 3: I stands for Office Civil Rights. So you would think

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Speaker 3: an Office of Civil Rights maybe be proactive and notice

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Speaker 3: that a state that has banned trans healthcare and some

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Speaker 3: places even criminalized it might be ready for some enforcement,

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Speaker 3: some broad enforcement. And yet they have they have maintained

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Speaker 3: in this final rule that they expect individual trans people

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Speaker 3: to file individual OCR complaints every time and that they

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Speaker 3: will address each one on a case by case basis.

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Speaker 3: They reiterate this at least a dozen times. It is

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Speaker 3: one of the most offensive parts of all this, right

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Speaker 3: because that's the only thing that AJS has ever told

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Speaker 3: us about this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is just nuts, Like that's not an actual

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Speaker 2: systemic way of addressing Can you imagine if they had

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Speaker 2: done this with like literally any other kind of civil

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Speaker 2: rights issue, Like you know, okay, we get we get,

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Speaker 2: we get a state banned on gay marriage, and the

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Speaker 2: Department is like, yeah, you have to submit a complaint

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Speaker 2: to us individually, Like that's absolutely nuts.

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Speaker 3: Or are oriented like states were band insulin or something,

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Speaker 3: you know, right, like any other any other facet of healthcare.

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Speaker 3: Just nobody would take that. Yeah, everyone to expect, Yes,

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Speaker 3: the federal government will come in to make sure that

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Speaker 3: people in Louisiana can still access insulin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And instead you have this just you know, I

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Speaker 2: mean a complete abrogation of any like, not just any responsibility,

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Speaker 2: but I mean any attempt to actually, like not even

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Speaker 2: like any attempt to do anything to stop any of

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Speaker 2: these bands that are you going to kill a like

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Speaker 2: not in significant number of people like me?

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things I'd like to win is

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Speaker 3: one of the benefits of of you know, the photogram

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Speaker 3: having to follow the Administrative Procedures Act is they have

404
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Speaker 3: to talk about the previous rules in this space, and

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Speaker 3: so you also get really, I was gonna say funny,

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Speaker 3: but they're not funny. They're they're deeply depressing paragraphs about

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Speaker 3: how their final rule is worse than Obama's final rule. Right,

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Speaker 3: they have and they have to explain it and open

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I'll reference here is that

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Speaker 3: Obama's final rule I believe, involved directing the Office of

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Speaker 3: Al Rights to conduct a disparate impact analysis on you know,

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Speaker 3: marginalized populations to determine if there were discriminatory outcomes in

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Speaker 3: healthcare access, kind of even as a closed system, so

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Speaker 3: they can look in from the outside and be like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 3: all the transmuble in the state can't access.

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Speaker 7: X, Y and z.

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Speaker 3: So whether that whether there is a discriminatory you know

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Speaker 3: law or not, there is a disparate impact on this population,

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Speaker 3: and that means we need to take enforcement action. And

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Speaker 3: you get to read the Biden HHS right about how

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Speaker 3: they're not going to do that.

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Speaker 2: Actually, no, no, don't, please, please do please do not

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Speaker 2: do any analysis to see your trans people are being oppressed.

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Speaker 2: This would look really bad for us. Yeah, speaking speaking

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Speaker 2: of looking bad for us, you know, you know what

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Speaker 2: won't look bad. It's if you buy these products and

427
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Speaker 2: services from this ad that hopefully isn't I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I feel I feel like we're kind of running We've

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Speaker 2: run through the cycle of the terrible ads, so I

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Speaker 2: feel like we're about we're on the precipice of there

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Speaker 2: being another bunch of ads they put on the show

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Speaker 2: without telling.

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Speaker 4: Us that we can complain about. But for now these

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Speaker 4: ones and we are back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think this is something that I don't know.

436
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Speaker 2: I think most people do not know this. I don't

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Speaker 2: I think most people do not understand that not only

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Speaker 2: is the Biden administration not being proactive, it's like they're

439
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 2: actively rolling back protections, and they're actively rolling back things

440
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 2: that the agency used to do under Obama, which was

441
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 2: you know, in most other respects.

442
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 4: I don't know.

443
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 6: Again, I don't.

444
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: Really like, can I expect the people who listened to

445
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: the show to remember the Obama administration?

446
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 8: Now?

447
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: I don't know.

448
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I was one of the people who came

449
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 3: of aged off my parents' healthcare plan kind of exactly

450
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 3: right before kind of primary PPACA productions kicked in, right

451
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 3: and so I had a several month period where they

452
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 3: could still deny you health insurance using or being trands

453
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: as a pre existing condition, as they don't god and

454
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: so that that that actually did happen to me. I

455
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: applied for health insurance and they sent me a letter

456
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: that said, you have your trends. That's a pre existing condition.

457
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 3: We're not going to sell your health and so I

458
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 3: so I actually did several months later, you know, those

459
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 3: protections kicked in, and the Obama administration actually did do

460
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 3: some kind of proactive work to make sure that those

461
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: were spread around the country. Like it's not nowhere never

462
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 3: has been as guys, good and throw.

463
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 4: As it should be.

464
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 3: But it worked for me here because then when I

465
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 3: implied again, I was not denied for being trance.

466
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I think that's the kind of

467
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: general thing I want to say about that too, is like,

468
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 2: you know, there were things where, like on these kind

469
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: of issues where the obomaministration was a lot better broadly

470
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: if you look at the rest of their policy, it

471
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 2: was like significantly further right in the Biden administration.

472
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 4: Like Obama.

473
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 2: Obama tried to tried to like put up grand bargain

474
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: together to destroy Medicaid, Medicare, social Security, Like he tried

475
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: to do that and he was stopped by the Republicans. Right,

476
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: it was like, I need to give people a sense

477
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: of like how far right Obama was even compared to Biden,

478
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 2: and yet the REGs are getting worse.

479
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 3: Which is on our issues. He was fairly fairly good, right, Yeah,

480
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: and one thing that I think contributes to people not

481
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 3: you know, I can't blame folks for not understanding this

482
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: is happening because the queer advocacy orgs are not talking

483
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: about things this way, right, and I think possibly one

484
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: of them. The most illustrative things I can point out

485
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 3: is when the first title nine n pr M drops.

486
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: So NPRM stands for Notice of prop was rulemaking. So

487
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: if I drop that again, it's a screw up on

488
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 3: my part. I don't mean to use the dragon, but

489
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 3: so that when they issue their first draft of a

490
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 3: regulation and invite comment in a comment period follows.

491
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 9: Right.

492
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 3: So the title nine inn PRM that they release around

493
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 3: trans students' access to sports programs and education. If you

494
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: read it the language of the actual draft policy, not

495
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 3: the press releases people put out about it, it is

496
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 3: functionally States rights for athlete bands.

497
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 10: Right.

498
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: It gives the States rights to come up with a

499
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 3: justification that involves fairness and safety, and then they will

500
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: have deference to pursue or whatever, which is not just

501
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: some of the ways they've done fifty fifty seven as well.

502
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and like to make it explicitly clear. What

503
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: they're saying is that if you, as a stake can

504
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 2: come up with a good enough reason, you were allowed

505
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: to discriminate against trans people and prevent them. Yeah, exactly

506
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 2: doing sports, which she's like, again, it is a vert

507
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: discrimination based on gender, which you should not be able

508
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: to do legally. However, come the absolute cowardly shits at

509
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: the Biden administration. We're like, no, you could actually do this,

510
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: go ahead to have fun.

511
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: Fascist humanization marks. And so, if you remember back to

512
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 3: that time, all of the national queer organizations put out

513
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 3: these glowing press release. So I'm on the policy side, right,

514
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: I'm not on the comp side. I reanalyzed the policy,

515
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 3: I tell them what it means, and then it's unfortunately

516
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: out of my hands at that point, right, and the

517
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 3: national queer organizations have been messaging basically all of these

518
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 3: things as great wins moving things forward. Biden truly the

519
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 3: first trans president. We love them, stuff like that, right,

520
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: And so they did not for that title nine in BRM.

521
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:59,479
Speaker 3: And then several days later, the Representative Zoe Zephyr, a

522
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: Translin represent state representative from Montana, organized the out trans state,

523
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: trans and non binary state legislators from around the country

524
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: to release an open letter which you know, condemned the

525
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 3: title nine NPRM for.

526
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 4: Being dog shit. Yeah, and so that's that's.

527
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 3: I think maybe the one and only kind of a

528
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: crack in the in the facade that has gotten through

529
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: over the past couple of years is when you know,

530
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: this thing came out after the police people said this

531
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 3: is how did this happen?

532
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: What the hell?

533
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: And then the comms came out and they were great,

534
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: glowing you know, he love trans people. And then you know,

535
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 3: the state trans elected is actually said no, this this

536
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: fucking socks actually right, But that has not really happened

537
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 3: for anything else because they're you know, most of the

538
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 3: people who do what I do, they're you know, specialized

539
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: in each and there are many jobs for it, and

540
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: you could could I could speak at length about how

541
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 3: you don't get to speak your mind if you want

542
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: to continue to stay with kind of movement employment in

543
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: this sector. And so in terms of publicly being able

544
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 3: to speak about how we're being thrown under the bus currently,

545
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: there are not many folks with the expertise who are

546
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: free to do that.

547
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I remember, like I'm not a policy person, right,

548
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 2: Like I have I have, you know, part I mean

549
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: parts of this is an analytical thing, right, Like I

550
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: bailed out of going to law school because I had

551
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: to read that, I had to read the Clean Air Act,

552
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: and I was like, I will literally die if I

553
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: have to do this for a living. But you know,

554
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: I remember when when the sort of Title nine stuff

555
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: came out and when and I remember trying to talk

556
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: about it. I remember like the pushback that I got

557
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: for being like, wait, this sucks. It was enormous. It

558
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: was this like incredible sort of broad front pr campaign

559
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: from just so many different and not even just you know,

560
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: it had filtered down to the point where like it

561
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: wasn't just like these origs. It was like just like

562
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: like the random people on Twitter who's supposed to follow

563
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: policy stuff were only in line. Like everyone was coming

564
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: in and it was just like absolutely terrifying, Like kind

565
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: of those people.

566
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: Don't actually read policy. That's the thing that policy reporters don't, right.

567
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so many such cases, and.

568
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: So most people who report on policy or or kind

569
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 3: of are follow policy do tend to kind of stick

570
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 3: in the realm of those press releases and initial initial

571
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: articles based on press releases and so if there is

572
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 3: not kind of sincerity and truthfulness on the part of

573
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: the orgs that are the trusted, you know, speakers in

574
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: this space, then this stuff gets successfully laundered. And I

575
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 3: think it's intentional. I think that it, on one hand,

576
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 3: is an intentional move to prevent and stemy actual grassroots

577
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: organizing around sincere and real and pressing trans needs. Because

578
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 3: if you're trying to get a lot of people fired

579
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: up about trans healthcare is like on fire, and half

580
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: the like half the trans kids in the country don't

581
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: have we have to like this is act up shit time. Right,

582
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 3: But if everybody that you know is on your email list,

583
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: if most of them have seen HRC and NCT and

584
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: all these places put out these blowing press releases, people

585
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: are like, you're crazy. If things are fine, Jo's moving

586
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: things for We're good. And then also I think they

587
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: have kind of backed themselves into a corner in terms

588
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 3: of how a lot of Libs have have backed themselves

589
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 3: into a corner at this point. Right, they know that

590
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: Trump is worse on policy, even if Biden has done

591
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,239
Speaker 3: barely anything, Trump is obviously worse for trans people, and

592
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 3: so they're they're allowing electoral weirdness to control actual kind

593
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 3: of policy coms in a way that I find really

594
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: really frustrating. And then I think is not doing trans people,

595
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: especially in the South. It's not treating them with the

596
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: respect that they deserve from their the organizations that claim

597
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: to represent them.

598
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a thing that Okay, this is

599
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: this is going to sound like a weird sidebar, but

600
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: I promise if you follow this train of logical do worthy.

601
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: This is something you actually this is a debate You

602
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 2: get a lot more clearly in Latin American social movements,

603
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: where because because their social movements are significantly stronger from

604
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: the social movements in the US, right, they are their

605
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: own sort of coherent like political basis.

606
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 4: You get this like a labor movement.

607
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, like you know that this

608
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: is the thing about the labor movement. Like you know,

609
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: if if you look at for example, Bolivia, which has

610
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 2: very very strong social movements or like has traditionally had

611
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: very strong labor movements in a lot social movements in

612
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: the last twenty thirty years, right, I mean, like their

613
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: labor movement throws dynamite at bosses, right, Like you know,

614
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: so like they have they have a very strong movement.

615
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: And but one of the questions of these movements, and

616
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: this is something that has just torn apart the m

617
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: as they're there's sort of like supposedly movement political party,

618
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: is this question of to what extent should you integrate

619
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: your social movement with the state. And you know, and

620
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 2: this is a long this is a long running debate

621
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 2: in Budge social movements. Various movements have picked different directions.

622
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: Some of them have become very unfolded in the states,

623
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 2: some of them have resisted it. And there are you know,

624
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: there are benefits and problems with both. But one of

625
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: the big issues with trying to sort of incorporate yourself

626
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 2: into the state is that the state isn't just a

627
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: kind of neutral body. It will, you know, it's it's

628
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: not just that you're working with the state. The state

629
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: is also working with you, and it will attempt to

630
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: and in its political parties will attempt to seize control

631
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 2: of your organization and turn your organization into just a

632
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: sort of into you know, into basically a pr outlet

633
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: for whatever thing it's doing. And this becomes a real

634
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: problem when you're you know, your your party is trying

635
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: to screw you.

636
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 9: Yeah.

637
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: I mean this came to ahead in twenty twelve where

638
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: there was a huge fight in Bolivia over a plan

639
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: by the MS to build a highway through a bunch

640
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 2: of indigenous land. And this this basically split the base

641
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: of the party, right because the MAS had been sort

642
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: of an indigenous socialist movement, and it got split between

643
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: the people who supported building this growth of the people who didn't.

644
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: And so like even Moreles has riot police stormed the

645
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 2: offices of one of the of one of the indigenous

646
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: federations and like replaces them, like replaces their leadership with

647
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: guys who are loyal to him, who will push this

648
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: thing through, right. And you know, I mean the reason

649
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 2: I'm talking about this is the kind of social movement

650
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: stuff I studied in college, right, And it's like and

651
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: now in the US, we were like kind of starting

652
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: to get to the point where we have real social movements, right,

653
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: and we've seen sort of like BLM, you know, we

654
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: we sort of have something that is a career movement,

655
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: and we're running into exactly the same thing where yeah,

656
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: like if you you know, this is the thing you

657
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 2: can talk about more stifically in the US, but it's like, yeah,

658
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: like these orgs are on are are in in the

659
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: middle of this sort of state capture process, right, and

660
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: this has having really really dogshit effects on queer people

661
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: because is when when these organizations are you know, become

662
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: becomes sort of media arms or become sort of political

663
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: arms of these party apparatuses. They're not representing you, They're

664
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: representing the party and I and.

665
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: I think that one one of the easiest places to

666
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 3: kind of see the dynamic that you and I are

667
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 3: talking about in current US politics is in the discourse

668
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 3: around palace and any liberation.

669
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 4: Right.

670
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you try to talk with anybody about palace

671
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 3: and any liberation, you get beset upon on all sides

672
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: by people saying, well, do you want Trump to win?

673
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 3: You think Trump's gonna be better? This like electoral project

674
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 3: takes precedence over you know, politics guided by core values

675
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 3: so quickly and so overwhelmingly.

676
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, and it's it's accelerated to a point.

677
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 2: I mean, this is something I remember in it during

678
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 2: the Trump years, we would we would joke about this

679
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: about sort of the spinelessness of liberalism, Like it used

680
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 2: to be a joke that like if the democratic president

681
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: did a genocide, people would go, oh, well, you still

682
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: have to support them because the other tup and now

683
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: it's literally happening.

684
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 3: Yeah you know, I mean well, so I actually started

685
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 3: working at Nationals. I took the drop at transfer A

686
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 3: Law Center right after Trump took office, and so my,

687
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 3: you know, it was very easy for me to especially

688
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: as someone who you know, had never worked at large

689
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: avoccine nonprofits before, because go figure, there's no money in

690
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: doing transwork in the South that was scrappy and under

691
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 3: resource as fuck. I got to delude myself, I think,

692
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: because you know, Trump is such a uniquely dangerous force

693
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 3: that a lot of people alongside me and the movement

694
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 3: were had the same shared the values with me, because

695
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 3: I could see them being equally strident and vocal on

696
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 3: kind of all the bad things that were happening. And

697
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 3: then you know, it's almost it's a tire joke at

698
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 3: this point, but you know, Biden took over and the

699
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 3: kids were still in cages and everybody else shut up,

700
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 3: and I looked around and I'm like, wait, I'm.

701
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: Still I still okay, Yeah, the hell or all go

702
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: Like I want to yell about that for a second,

703
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 2: because like so I kind of like this, this was

704
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: like my sort of well, I mean, I guess my

705
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: technical origin story. There's a slight longer thing this, but

706
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: like my me being a person that any would listen

707
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: to as a product of being involved in occupy Ice

708
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: and like you know, going out and finding like you know,

709
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: I mean, the sort of horror of that, like you

710
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: can fucking hear people yelling from the inside of these

711
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: buildings that they're being fucking held in. And now, you know,

712
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: Biden like, well, we'll do a longer thing about this

713
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 2: at some point, but like Biden is you know that

714
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: that fucking bill that they were trying to pass like

715
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: absolutely unbelievably fascist one saying that the president has the

716
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 2: right to close the border. She's trying to just fucking

717
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: do it anyways.

718
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and they're still doing concpts about it making

719
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: them they think it makes them look good.

720
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 2: No, it's it's like it's they're they're they're doing just

721
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: pure evil. Like again, like literally, without like James and

722
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: his friends, there would be pile like there's still are

723
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: corpses floating up in the fucking rivers on the border,

724
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: but there would be fucking like there would be stacked

725
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: like mounds of corpses of people who fucking starved or died,

726
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 2: Like if literally James and his friends weren't down there

727
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: on the border right now, that and you know, and yeah,

728
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: likes this is the thing you're talking about. It's like,

729
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: I remember all these people in the streets for this.

730
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: I was like, I was there, I was fucking helping

731
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 2: to organize this stuff. And then like you watch them

732
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 2: walk away. Yeah, it's terrible.

733
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 3: And I want to make clearer that you know, you're

734
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 3: talking about kind of the pressure that a party in

735
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 3: power can can apply and the way in which these

736
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 3: organizations can be captured, especially just due to how nonprofit

737
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: funding is a whole cluster fucking and how it works

738
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: here in the US. But I so, I actually by

739
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 3: a White House staffer called my executive director within an

740
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: hour of my boss forwarding the White House an analysis

741
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 3: of mine that I'd written for a state without reading

742
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 3: it herself at all. And in this analysis I included

743
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: a dismal assessment of the likelihood that the federal government

744
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: would use its power to prevent implementation that saw this

745
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 3: was a this was a healthcare band, that a novel

746
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 3: healthcare band that the estate wanted to quit turn around one

747
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: and so my boss direct boss forwarded it to the

748
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 3: White House, who had asked for analysis on it without

749
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 3: reading it at all. And within an hour of my

750
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 3: boss forwarding it to the White House, the White House

751
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 3: had called our executive director to complain about me and

752
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: I got written up for it. That is the fastest

753
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 3: turnaround on anything trans that anybody has gotten out of

754
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 3: this White House. And it was it was getting me,

755
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 3: me disciplined for in a in an analysis that was

756
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: not for them not being super impressed with their with

757
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: their trans policy. And I and I have heard I

758
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 3: have you know a lot of colleagues in the movement,

759
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 3: the folks I trust completely on trans policy. And I

760
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 3: know for a fact that I am not the only

761
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 3: person that has had a situation like that occur. And

762
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 3: so there they are applying pressure and even in the

763
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 3: most direct ways to you know, the advocacy organizations. So

764
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 3: it it, it is happening.

765
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the thing I wanted to close

766
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: on was talking about a bit about like the consequences

767
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: of this, because what happens when this this is you know,

768
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: this is part of going back to me talking about Bolivia,

769
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: Like this is part of how even Moralees got overthrown

770
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 2: in the coup, was that because the social movements, like

771
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: most of the like a lot of these social movements

772
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: have been sort of weakened to the point where they

773
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 2: know they no longer had you know, that they'd become

774
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: policy organs at the state and not actual like fighting

775
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: movements that could like effectively resist. You know that that

776
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: that could do a thing like for example, like you know,

777
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: if you look at the the the the original coup

778
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: against Hugo Chavez, right, like, the social movements were so

779
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: strong that even though the army literally did a coup,

780
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: they got fucking ran out by like several million uh

781
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: Venezuelans taking to the streets and just like overturning the coup,

782
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: right and that I I mean that happens later like

783
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: in like that there was you know, there there was

784
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 2: there was a second round of barricades that went up

785
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: that got basically no press attention in twenty twenty. You

786
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 2: know that there's a whole comp I'll talk about that

787
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 2: one day. And how hilariously after getting bailed out, even

788
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: Rallies pulled his people off the barricades because they didn't

789
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: actually want to overthrow the government. They just wanted an election. Obviously, well,

790
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: people off to keep the government intact long enough. He's

791
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: done this in many This is the second time he's

792
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: done this, by the way, this happened in the water

793
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 2: in the.

794
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 4: Water Wars in twenty and six.

795
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: But uh, you know, but but like in the initial

796
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: period of the coup, part of the reason this this

797
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: was able to happen again was because the capacity of

798
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 2: these groups to like overturn something like this had been

799
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 2: so new, or that they were able to sort of

800
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: be defeated in the streets. And you know, we are

801
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: we are watching our own version of this where, yeah,

802
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 2: like I wanted to sort of talk to you about

803
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: what's been happening the fucking hell escape that's been happening

804
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 2: in Louisiana, as you know, partially because of the sort

805
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: of republican's fascist turn, but also because the resistance to

806
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: them has been neutered by the fact that they're you know,

807
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 2: they have to like defend this Biden policy shit.

808
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 3: Right, And yeah, so one important point to make about

809
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 3: the federal the need for federal protections is that you know,

810
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 3: I live in Louisiana, federal protections are all I'm ever

811
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: going to have, right, And so if the federal protections

812
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 3: aren't there, and if there's not a federal government willing

813
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 3: to enforce them, I'm I'm in big trouble. Like I

814
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 3: would bet every single dollar I have, which is not many,

815
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 3: that my medicaid will not will not cover my hormones

816
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 3: by the end of the year. Right, And so what

817
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: I what I think And I've highlighted kind of before

818
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: when it was very clear that Jeff Landry was going

819
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: to become governor after John Bell and actually did drug

820
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 3: policy for John Bell for a while, and a lot

821
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 3: of trans people were kind of quietly in his administration.

822
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 3: I think that my friend Tucker, aside from Rachel Levine,

823
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 3: was probably the highest ranked state executive branch transperson in

824
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 3: history as deputy Press secretary for a while. Well yeah,

825
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, but yeah, trans people busted asks to

826
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 3: get John Bell elected. And so we had held off

827
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: a lot of this stuff for a long time, not

828
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 3: just through having a nominally democratic governor, but through the

829
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: organizing in the South that that happens on no resources

830
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 3: whatsoever is some of the most broad based and inspiring

831
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: kind of coalitional organizing that I've ever seen, and I've

832
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 3: done work all around the country, and the way that

833
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 3: people are able to organize kind of cross issue here

834
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: is phenomenal. But we are all Jerry manderd to shit.

835
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 3: We get no money, attention resources from national groups off

836
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 3: in the media, and especially here in Louisiana and in

837
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 3: much of the South, like we are not an attractive

838
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 3: place for impact litigation because in the Fifth Circuit and

839
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 3: all our state courts are shit, and so we really

840
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 3: kind of are on our own here in a all

841
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 3: of a sudden Republican super majority legislature with an activist

842
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 3: fascist governor and ag so Jeff Jeff Blandery is very

843
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 3: much in the model of the disantis or an abbot

844
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 3: in terms of what he is hoping to do in

845
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 3: Louisiana and what he's hoping to get out of it

846
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: in terms of his own personal profile and ambitions. And

847
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: there's so much we could talk about in terms of

848
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 3: what's going on here, but I want to highlight specifically

849
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: s B two seventy six, which is the bill you

850
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 3: may have seen headlines about. It's the bill that adds

851
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: Mith pristone and muspristalled to the State Schedule for Controlled

852
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: Substances Act.

853
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: And can you can you explain what that what that

854
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: actually means for people who.

855
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 3: Do Yeah, so MYTH and MISO are used for a

856
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of healthcare in terms of, for example,

857
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: miscarriage management inducing labor in a hospital, but they can

858
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: also be used for self managed medication abortion. And so

859
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: this has not been done anywhere else in the in

860
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 3: the country where the leading the charge here, No other

861
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 3: state has ever added drugs like this to their controlled

862
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 3: substances long and and so what that means is that

863
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 3: those drugs are now going to be going through the

864
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 3: Prescription Monitoring Program the PMP, which has a lot more

865
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: controls and surveillance than non controlled substances. Right, So the

866
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 3: Board of Medicine, the Board Pharmacy, and I'm trying, I'm

867
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 3: trying to do a survey now to figure out which

868
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: state agency specifically have like automatic inherent access to that

869
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 3: PMP database. But it makes it a lot more traceable

870
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 3: and trackable, which is which is really scary for anybody

871
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: trying to access reproductive and abortion healthcare in a place

872
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 3: like Louisiana. And then the other thing it does is

873
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 3: it raises the stakes phenomenally for the people doing the

874
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: kind of and I'm going to speak, I'm going to

875
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 3: try to speak very carefully, or the people doing the

876
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 3: kind of direct practical support work to work with underserved

877
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: populations to make sure that they can access healthcare services

878
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: that they need. Right, And it is just a it

879
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 3: is a fact of life that you know, just like

880
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 3: in the harm direction movement, there are a lot of

881
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 3: people on the ground busting ass to get people what

882
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 3: they need. And you know, for a lot of times

883
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 3: for abortion funds, that's organizing money and transportation and hotels

884
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 3: to get people out of state. Right since the Florida

885
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 3: abortion van, we can't send people there anymore. We have

886
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: to send people to Illinois, which is more expensive and

887
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 3: further way. And it's those people who are at risk,

888
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 3: the people doing the work like the backbone of the

889
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 3: on the ground grassroots practical support mutual aid work, that

890
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 3: are risking. I think it's you know, five to ten

891
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 3: years per pill if they are you know, providing them

892
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 3: to someone else. It's it's terrifying, and there's no we

893
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 3: don't know what we're going to do about it. Yeah,

894
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 3: I'm gonna call last night kind of like, what are

895
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 3: we going to do about this? We don't know because

896
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 3: it's it's scary, and then jumping back to kind of

897
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 3: the problem with how not problem nonprofit and advocacy funding

898
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 3: works in this country, there are a lot of restrictions

899
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: that come that are you know, that organizations who are

900
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: funded that way have to live with, Like especially I'll

901
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 3: speak to the harm reduction world. For example, you'll get

902
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 3: a grant at your syringe exchange and they're like, here's

903
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars, but you can't spend any of it

904
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 3: on needles, and you're like, that's my biggest expense, That's

905
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 3: what I was going to you know, And so it's

906
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 3: the same kind of thing. The more that this kind

907
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 3: of work gets criminalized and pushed to the edge, the

908
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 3: fewer resourced organizations are able to work on it, have

909
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 3: the money that we're going it, but be just there

910
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 3: legal teams. The chilling effects of this stuff are massive,

911
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 3: and so it just falls more and more on the

912
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: backs of kind of the grassroots folks who have always

913
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 3: been making this happen for community to the extent that

914
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 3: they can under the harshest of circumstances, and you know,

915
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 3: it's people like that are who are going to have

916
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 3: to make some really tough decisions going forward.

917
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, like the.

918
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 4: It's never.

919
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: There's never been a good or safe time to do

920
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 2: stuff like this. But you know, as it gets increasingly dangerous,

921
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: and as you know, you get the sort of downstream

922
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 2: effects of both the sort of legal like but both

923
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: the sort of legal danger and the sort of like

924
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 2: constricting of movement space by the sort of question of

925
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: these engios, things just get more and more dangerous in

926
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: a time where the people who need to be dangerous

927
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: is us because otherwise we are going to die.

928
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, scary time, but yeah, you know, we keep us

929
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 3: fucking safe and yeah, always have and always will. And

930
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 3: it's going to be rough what we're heading into. But

931
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 3: you know, I again, the organizing in the South is

932
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 3: I've never seen anything that's made me so proud to

933
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 3: be an organizer and an activist as the work that

934
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: I see in the South. And so if there's anybody

935
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 3: who can lead the way on how to respond to

936
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 3: these things and how to take care of each other,

937
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's our people. It's these people who've

938
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 3: been doing it forever.

939
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think on that note, if people

940
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: want to find you and the people you've been working

941
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,399
Speaker 2: with in the orgs that you're sort of working with,

942
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 2: now where where where can they find that on the

943
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 2: Internet or I guess other places too. Are there other

944
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 2: things that are not the Internet at.

945
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: This point, I'm not, I really don't. Yeah, so you

946
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 3: can find me on Twitter. I'm Gay Narcan on Twitter.

947
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 3: That's that's me. And then if you are interested in

948
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 3: supporting kind of the work that my collective is doing,

949
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 3: the probably best place to go for that right now

950
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 3: is our first launched project called trans Income Project. It's

951
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 3: trans Income Project dot org. And what that is is

952
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 3: an organization that is solely dedicated to doing direct cash

953
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 3: transfers to transsex workers in Louisiana. We just had some

954
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 3: of our first listening sessions with folks and yeah, this

955
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 3: is gonna be so kick ass.

956
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 4: So yeah, go go.

957
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 3: There for that direct project. And then I would also

958
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 3: encourage folks to take a look at Louisiana Transadvocates. I

959
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 3: used to be president there. It's the state Transavacy organization.

960
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 3: We're actually the state in the South that has had

961
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,959
Speaker 3: the longest consistent trans presence at the Capitol through Louisiana Transadvocates,

962
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 3: and we have no fucking money, so feel free to

963
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: so maybe toss something over there too if.

964
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: You get tired.

965
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say this, given how fucking zero dollars

966
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 2: every time transperson has, like this is what are the

967
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 2: places where your individual dollar will go the furthest because

968
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,959
Speaker 2: you're like, you're your ten dollars is like a three

969
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 2: hundred percent increase I like the total funding of these works.

970
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you so much for coming on

971
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: and talking.

972
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 3: About this, and thanks so much for having me.

973
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess my final final final message to

974
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: listeners go fuck him up. You can do you could

975
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 2: do it too.

976
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:32,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, that I agree completely. Coastline.

977
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 11: Hi everyone, it's me James, and I just wanted to

978
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 11: read you this today. I'm going to put it in

979
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 11: our episode this week because it's a cause, it's important

980
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 11: to us, and so we thought it would be something

981
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 11: that might be important to you too as well. On

982
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 11: the tenth of June twenty twenty four, Leonard Peltier, the

983
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 11: name rolled member of the Turtle Band of Chippewa of

984
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 11: Lakota and Ojibwei Ancestry and the longest serving political prisoner

985
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 11: in the United States will be appearing before the US

986
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,280
Speaker 11: Parole Commission for the first time since two thousand, thousand

987
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 11: and nine. He faces staunch opposition from the FBI and

988
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 11: other law enforcement agencies due to having allegedly killed two

989
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 11: FBI agents in a firefight on the twenty sixth of

990
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 11: June nineteen seventy five, after the agents appeared on reservation

991
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 11: land to execute a pretextural warrant. The initial firefight occurred

992
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 11: during the quote reign of terror on Pine Ridge in

993
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,919
Speaker 11: the wake of the occupation of Wounded Knee, a time

994
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 11: of extreme violence when federal law enforcement installed a puppet

995
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 11: tribal chair and was arming vigilantes who targeted Indigenous traditionalists

996
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 11: every since leading up to these events, as well as

997
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 11: subsequent investigation and mister Peltier's tradition, trial, conviction, and sentencing

998
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 11: were characterized by gross misconduct on a part of law enforcement,

999
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 11: the prosecution, and the courts. Mister Peltier's co defendants were

1000
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 11: separately tried and acquitted on grounds of self defense. Mister

1001
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 11: Peltier was railroaded, and his case is tainted by discrimination

1002
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 11: at every level, ranging from the withholding of exculpatory evidence,

1003
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 11: to the torture and coercion of extradition and trial witnesses,

1004
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 11: and from the refusal of the judge to dismiss and

1005
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 11: vowedly racist Dura, to the apologetic gymnastics of the courts

1006
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 11: affirming his convictions in the face of meritorious legal challenges

1007
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 11: and admitted evidence about rageous government misdeeds. Mister Peltier has

1008
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 11: been in prison for more than forty eight years and

1009
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 11: he's almost eighty years old. He suffers from chronic and

1010
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 11: potentially lethal conditions for which he receives insufficient and substandard

1011
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 11: medical care. If you want to take action to hashtag

1012
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 11: free Leonard Peltier, you can call the US Parole Commission

1013
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 11: at two zero two three four six seven zero zero zero,

1014
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 11: And if you'd like to find more information on how

1015
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 11: to support, you can.

1016
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 4: Go to this url.

1017
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:53,919
Speaker 11: It's http colon slash slash n d NC dot c

1018
00:54:54,040 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 11: c slash free Leonard Peltier. That's free l e O

1019
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 11: N A R D P E l t I E R.

1020
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 11: Or you can follow n d N Collective on social

1021
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 11: media for more ways to support him. More information on

1022
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 11: Leonard Peltier, listen to Margaret's podcast on the Lakota Nation.

1023
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 11: A read in the Spirit of the Crazy Horse by

1024
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 11: Peter Mathewson. Hi, everyone, welcome to It could happen here

1025
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 11: podcasts about things falling apart and people putting them back together.

1026
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 11: Today we're talking about a little of both of those things.

1027
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 11: I'm joined by Rose, who's a migration activist in the Netherlands,

1028
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 11: and Mick, who has studied migration. We're going to talk

1029
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 11: about the EU's border today, and we're going to talk

1030
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 11: about I think a lot of people, especially the bulk

1031
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 11: of our listeners in the United States, won't be aware

1032
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 11: perhaps of how incredibly cruel and fatal the EU's border is,

1033
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:04,919
Speaker 11: what it does to people, how it does it, where

1034
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 11: it does it. So we're going to talk about that today.

1035
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 11: It's very exciting. There's even more wall than we have

1036
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 11: in the United States, so I'm looking forward to that.

1037
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 11: And so HI, Welcome to the show. Both of you.

1038
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 5: Hi, Thanks, Hi, Thanks for having us.

1039
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,240
Speaker 11: Thanks for being here. The way we wanted to structure

1040
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 11: this was Mick has like an excellent presentation for We're

1041
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 11: going to structure this over two episodes. First, we want

1042
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 11: to talk about the state of things and then we

1043
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 11: want to talk about activism and ways that people can

1044
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 11: meaningfully make a difference in this situation. So, Mick, yeah,

1045
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 11: if you'd like to take it away with you with

1046
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 11: your script here, Rose and I will interject whenever we

1047
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 11: feel like it.

1048
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 5: Okay, fair enough, let's go.

1049
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 7: So.

1050
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 5: The EU border crisis is largely crisis of the Mediterranean

1051
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 5: to see that separates Europe from Africa, and it is

1052
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 5: arguably one of the most deadly borders in the world,

1053
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 5: if not the most deadly border. According to several activists

1054
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 5: organizations such as the United Against Refugee Devs and Abolish Frontex,

1055
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 5: which is the EU border agency in charge of protecting

1056
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 5: the border, over fifty two thousand people have died at

1057
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 5: this border as of June twenty twenty three. This number

1058
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 5: is almost certainly higher to a number of factors, one

1059
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,919
Speaker 5: of which is that a significant amount of bodies are

1060
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 5: never recovered, which makes it very hard to verify whether

1061
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 5: or not someone has died or is lost somewhere in

1062
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 5: the migration routs. Migration patterns are very hard to keep

1063
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 5: track of. People travel hundreds of kilometers to simply get

1064
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 5: to a point where they can get access to boats,

1065
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 5: or other means of being transported across the sea. Yeah,

1066
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 5: I have a picture here that I would like to

1067
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 5: share with you. Listeners can find it in the notes

1068
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 5: and sources.

1069
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 11: Maybe we'll try and describe it, just so you know,

1070
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 11: to ones driving or something they can I guess, yeah,

1071
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 11: go ahead, give give me a best shot.

1072
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 5: Okay. It's a map of continental Europe with adjacent to

1073
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 5: it Africa and Eurasia. And it's a bunch of arrows

1074
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 5: coalescing on to certain points that grow bigger and bigger.

1075
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 5: And these represent the migration routes and the number of

1076
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 5: people that take a particular path. As you can see,

1077
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 5: the thicker line, the thicker the line, the more people

1078
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 5: it represents. The thinner lines come from the Middle East

1079
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 5: and further to the east. In terms of obstacles and danger,

1080
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 5: I think it's safe to say that crossing Iraq or

1081
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 5: Sybia is not without risk.

1082
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 11: Yeah. Yeah, I've done that. It's yeah, and I've done

1083
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 11: it in cause and with permission, and it's already pretty

1084
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 11: high risk. It's interesting this map is it is a

1085
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 11: twenty seventeen map. Am I seeing that right?

1086
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 5: Yes, it's from the Frontex's quarterly reports too. Which covers

1087
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 5: April till June twenty seventeen.

1088
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, so maybe this is after the peak of people

1089
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 11: leaving that Iraq and Syria area they like the yeah,

1090
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 11: after Mayhem, Yes, yeah, exactly. Not not that there are

1091
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 11: not still significant numbers. I mean I speak to people

1092
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 11: in Syria most weeks who are trying to leave Syria.

1093
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 11: It's become harder and harder due in part to the

1094
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 11: EU making its borders harder and harder and more and

1095
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 11: more deadly to cross, and due to a number of

1096
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 11: other reasons. But yeah, I think those those lines would

1097
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 11: have been fatter if we'd gone back, like, you know,

1098
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 11: three or four years. Yeah, I mean people in Europe

1099
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 11: will probably have been familiar with this. I mean, of course,

1100
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 11: says the When was the photo taken of the the

1101
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 11: young child who passed away cross That was Alida?

1102
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 7: I think that was in the summer of.

1103
00:59:53,320 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 5: Bottom Yeah, Alan Curdi, Yeah, the bois name was Allen Curdie.

1104
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 5: I think a brother of his ground as well.

1105
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, people can look that up if they want to.

1106
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 11: I'll try not to include it. It's quite a horrible

1107
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 11: thing to have to witness.

1108
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 5: No, it's not a nice photo to see ironically, it

1109
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 5: was one of the few moments where like European people

1110
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 5: could muster some sympathy for refugees. But yeah, that wins

1111
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 5: at some point. Yeah, it's always the case.

1112
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 11: Like I don't know, I am talking about this before

1113
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 11: speak about again, but like the other day, I was

1114
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 11: out dropping water and we came across a little three

1115
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 11: year old girl and her mother from Guinea, and they

1116
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 11: the young girl was very hypothermic. Like at first we

1117
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 11: didn't notice because we're like, oh, this girl is very quiet,

1118
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 11: and then we're like, go, okay, this girl is very

1119
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 11: very quiet, and perhaps, you know, we should be concerned,

1120
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 11: and like, I don't know how, and no one in

1121
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 11: their right mind would be like, yeah, this is normal

1122
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 11: and good and I'm really glad that this child is

1123
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 11: in a place where, you know, if left for several

1124
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 11: more hours, she might die. And everyone in that situation,

1125
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 11: to include people who were just driving by, were like,

1126
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 11: oh fuck, we need to help. But sadly, when we

1127
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 11: abstract it to numbers, which is the way it's always

1128
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 11: reported on, right, it's not stories, it's not people, it's

1129
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 11: not little children, it's fifty something thousand people. You know,

1130
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 11: it's hard to imagine fifty something thousand people dying. It's

1131
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 11: easier to feel something for one little boy.

1132
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, And it's easier to feel something for a child

1133
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 7: than for a man. It's easier to feel something for

1134
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 7: a woman than men. And also even the death of

1135
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 7: Alanchourti despite all the yeah, outraged provoked. It was also

1136
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 7: used as a to make the Turkey Deal, which was

1137
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 7: intended to stop people crossing by boat from Turkey to Greece,

1138
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 7: even though that was actually one of the safest migration

1139
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 7: routs we had at the time, and it closed up

1140
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 7: and people started to move to Libya and instead of

1141
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 7: three kilometers of sea, that meant people had to cross

1142
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 7: one hundred or more kilometers of sea, which was obviously

1143
01:01:59,560 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 7: way more.

1144
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, and just so do you need to Libya? And

1145
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 11: that time in Libya's where we'll find out later, is

1146
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 11: far from risk free.

1147
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 7: Yeah. Libya is a very different place than Turkey.

1148
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 5: Absolutely, Yeah, significantly worse to be than Turkey. So to

1149
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 5: get back on track, as you can also see from

1150
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 5: the picture of a vast majority of those migration routes

1151
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 5: across the Sahara desert, people who die in the desert

1152
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 5: or through other dangers on their journey do not make

1153
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 5: it to the Mediterranean and therefore tend to not end

1154
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 5: up in the statistics of people dying there. But I

1155
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 5: would still argue that it is undeniable that those people

1156
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 5: in fact died due to the migration policies that the

1157
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 5: EU puts in place and enforces. Definitely, it's just outside

1158
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 5: of our purview.

1159
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 7: The United list again of refugee deaths, it's taking into

1160
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 7: account anyone whose death can be attributed to the borders.

1161
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 7: So they do also include people dying in the desert,

1162
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 7: but there is much less news about it, So the

1163
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,479
Speaker 7: figures of frontecs and of IOM usually do not include those.

1164
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 7: But the number you just mentioned that with fifty two thousand,

1165
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 7: it also includes people who meet at suicide and detention

1166
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 7: centers or who died of medical neglecting camps. But it

1167
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 7: also includes people who died further from the European border,

1168
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,959
Speaker 7: but still on borders are that are controlled or are

1169
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 7: influenced by European policies.

1170
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 11: Yeah, in the US like to give a sort of

1171
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 11: comparison example that the statistics we have that come from

1172
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 11: border patrol, those are the remains that are found, which

1173
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 11: is a subset of the remains that exist in it,

1174
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 11: and it doesn't take into account people who died crossing

1175
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 11: Mexico Cree, people who died as Farsus as a Darian

1176
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 11: gap right, which is very dangerous and it's becoming more

1177
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 11: so as more traffic goes across it. People who died

1178
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 11: taking boats around the Darien Gap right, or for whatever reason,

1179
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 11: didn't make it. So we too have this kind of

1180
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 11: attempt to I guess when we get government statistics, we

1181
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 11: have to remember that they come from a government perspective

1182
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 11: and they will try and minimize the obvious cruelty that's happening.

1183
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 5: I think that's a characteristic of almost every government that

1184
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 5: keep the numbers low and don't really engage with the

1185
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 5: actual problems that are at hand. So before we go

1186
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 5: into more specific territories, there are a few things that

1187
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 5: should be made clear. The EU does not follow their

1188
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 5: own rules about migration. Hopefully at the end of this

1189
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 5: the listeners will also accept that the humanitarian and migration

1190
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 5: crises is much more a product of border policies rather

1191
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 5: than the policies being a consequence of migration. To first

1192
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 5: illustrate this, here is a quote from Government l the

1193
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 5: English version of the Dutch government websites asylum or a turn.

1194
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 5: All refugees entering the EU may apply for asylum. They

1195
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 5: must do this in the country where they enter the EU.

1196
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 5: Asylum seekers who do not require protection must return to

1197
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 5: their country of origin or to a save a third country.

1198
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 5: The EU respects the human rights of refugees, both when

1199
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 5: dealing with their applications and with regard to return. So

1200
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 5: I want you all to keep this in mind when

1201
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 5: we continue, because this phrasing ignores other policies that make

1202
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,439
Speaker 5: it much harder for migrants and refugees to even enter

1203
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 5: the EU or to be able to apply for asylum. So,

1204
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 5: and before we dive deeper into the atrocities that the

1205
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 5: EU enables, I think it's important to first briefly explain

1206
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 5: how the border system works and the history behind it.

1207
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 5: Europe is no stranger to migration and migrants, and it

1208
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 5: is something that has been happening in waves over the

1209
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 5: past three to four decades. In the early nineties, there

1210
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 5: were multiple waves of migrants from Albania to other European countries.

1211
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 5: The main cause of this was the isolationist policies that

1212
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 5: were enforced by the communist regime that was in charge there,

1213
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 5: the unrest that followed at the end of the regime,

1214
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 5: and the crisis of Kosovo. For those unaware, Kosovo had

1215
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 5: a war with Serbia for independence and Kosovari people are

1216
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 5: largely ethnic Albanians with the same language, and because of this,

1217
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 5: it was easier for Albanians to merge with the Kosovari

1218
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 5: refugees and use that to migrate further and easier into Europe.

1219
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 5: Other waves are caused by other geopolitical events, such as

1220
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 5: the Jasmine Revolution in Tunisia, which I think Mia and

1221
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 5: Roberts covered in their episode on self immolation. Yeah, okay,

1222
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 5: and much more down to everyone, the wars in Syria

1223
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 5: and Libya.

1224
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 11: My interest in the border has always run parallel to

1225
01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 11: my interesting conflict in reporting on conflict, and like it's

1226
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 11: just become such a recurrent experience to either learn about

1227
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 11: conflicts at the border here because someone is telling me

1228
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 11: about them, or learn about often like repression of ethnic

1229
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 11: or national or religious minorities because someone here tells me

1230
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 11: about them, or to go somewhere, you know, I was

1231
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 11: in Syria in October, was in Iraq and then return

1232
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 11: and see people from there at our border, and like

1233
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 11: as people will be aware the asylum system and it

1234
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 11: will cover it later. The asylum system allows people who

1235
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 11: are very in danger of persecution for various categories to

1236
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 11: apply for asylum. It's not functioning. It's not functioning in

1237
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 11: the EU, it's not functioning in the US. Like I've

1238
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 11: seen that persecution with my own eyes and the consequences

1239
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 11: of it, and I've seen people try and get away

1240
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 11: from it. Every single time I'm in somewhere like that,

1241
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 11: people will ask me for help, and it is fucking

1242
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:01,400
Speaker 11: heartbreaking to be like, yeah, the country that you see

1243
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 11: flying the F sixteens or the F thirty fives over

1244
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 11: your head, the planes that cost more than this entire

1245
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 11: town makes in a year. No, we can't have a functioning,

1246
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 11: fucking immigration system. Like in the case of the US,

1247
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:14,920
Speaker 11: it's this app which doesn't work and you can only

1248
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 11: use it north of Mexico City, and it's this broken

1249
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 11: system leads to people they're not like getting in a

1250
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 11: boat across the Mediterranean, crossing the Daryan Gap, walking across

1251
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 11: the mountains of northern Mexico because they want to have

1252
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 11: like a better iPhone. They're doing it because whatever the

1253
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 11: alternative is seems worse, and it's worth. People are fully

1254
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 11: aware that they're risking their lives on these journeys. It's

1255
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 11: you know, it's not that they live without access to

1256
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 11: news and the internet. They know about the death in

1257
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,720
Speaker 11: the Mediterranean, they know about the Daryant Gap when I

1258
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:53,680
Speaker 11: talk to migrants who haven't crossed the gap, like I

1259
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 11: was talking to group of Columbian migrants two or three

1260
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 11: days ago, and they were coming in to the US

1261
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 11: through It's in an area east of hookumber which is

1262
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 11: very rugged and very mountainous, and they were coming into

1263
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 11: an open air attention site where border patrol holds them.

1264
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 11: And I was talking to them, I say, how many

1265
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 11: if you walked, how many if you flew. Most of

1266
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 11: them flew and then were able to work forward. The

1267
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:19,959
Speaker 11: ones who walked. Everyone was like, oh shit, that's horrible,

1268
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 11: Like you must have seen terrible things. Like they're very

1269
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 11: aware of how dangerous it's journeys are. The reason that

1270
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 11: they're taking them is because it seems like staying at

1271
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:29,480
Speaker 11: home would be more dangerous.

1272
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, although I would like to add that it's not

1273
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 7: every migrant is a real refugee, and not every migrant

1274
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 7: has to be a real refugee. Yes, at least as

1275
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 7: the definition was established in the fifties by a bunch

1276
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:46,640
Speaker 7: of pretentious guys who kind of decided this is a

1277
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 7: good reason to migrate and all other reasons are not.

1278
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 7: At first, yeah, at first I worked in Greece and

1279
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 7: that was mainly with people of like what are considered

1280
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 7: like objectively real or good refugees, people from Afghanistan and

1281
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 7: Iraq and Syria, whereas when I was working in Bosnia

1282
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 7: it was mainly people from Morocco, Algeria and Pakistan. And

1283
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 7: a lack of opportunity can be a very good reason

1284
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 7: to move. I think most white people who moved to

1285
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:16,439
Speaker 7: America did so because of that.

1286
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 8: Not because they were imminently bombed in their home countries,

1287
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 8: but because they wanted to make something out of their

1288
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 8: lives and they didn't have opportunities at home. And I

1289
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 8: think this whole concept of refugee is meant to distinguish

1290
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 8: between good and bad reasons to move, and good and

1291
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,480
Speaker 8: bad people migrants.

1292
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 12: In the end, people can do really dangerous things for

1293
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 12: giving their children a better life and if their children

1294
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:49,320
Speaker 12: are not immediate danger, and the other thing I would

1295
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 12: like to stress is that I think the migration regime

1296
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:56,720
Speaker 12: that we see today is very tightly connected to colonization

1297
01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 12: and decolonization. For example, specifically in the Midlands, Surnam was

1298
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 12: a Dutch colony, and one of the reasons why the

1299
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 12: Dutch government agreed with decolonization was because the Dutch society

1300
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 12: started to get worried about all the black people showing up.

1301
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:16,640
Speaker 12: So and the same something similar happened with the independence

1302
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 12: word that.

1303
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,640
Speaker 13: Algeria fought against France. France preferred to give them independence

1304
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 13: rather than give them equal rights and access to the

1305
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:30,799
Speaker 13: French territory. So lifting like creating those barriers and keeping

1306
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 13: people in the Global South after these.

1307
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 7: Countries became independent is very tightly connected with decolonization. But

1308
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 7: of course, especially with new colonization and new ways of

1309
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,840
Speaker 7: controlling people in the Global South and exploiting them.

1310
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, if we look at like the US context, the

1311
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 11: United States government has managed to engineer this sort of

1312
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 11: compromise where capital travels freely across the Americas and people don't,

1313
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 11: so it's possible for them to exploit lower wage labor.

1314
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,600
Speaker 11: For US companies to exploit low wage labor Mexico and

1315
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:02,679
Speaker 11: other countries to the South, but not for those people

1316
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 11: to come and seek a better way to better way

1317
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 11: of living in the country that is consuming the products

1318
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 11: of their labor and so like, this is obviously not

1319
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 11: new to people, right, this is a thing that's Appatista

1320
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:16,720
Speaker 11: highlighted in nineteen ninety four and it's been the case

1321
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 11: for thirty years. But yeah, we have in the US

1322
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 11: because the United States colonialism like kind of a in

1323
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 11: a somewhat less overt way, although often in a pretty

1324
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:32,839
Speaker 11: overt way. It's facilitated undemocratic regimes and a low quality

1325
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 11: of life for people all across specifically the Americas, but

1326
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:38,240
Speaker 11: also the rest of the world, and it's now seeking

1327
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:41,600
Speaker 11: to prevent those people from coming here after it destabilized

1328
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 11: to their countries, right or in the case of climate change, again,

1329
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 11: like the consumption habits of certain countries have had an

1330
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 11: impact on people all around the world, to include people

1331
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 11: in more diaeconomic circumstances. And it shouldn't be any less.

1332
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 11: We shouldn't have any less empathy or solidarity with those

1333
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 11: people because no one's bombing them and they just want

1334
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 11: a chance to their kids to do the same shit.

1335
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 11: Like I moved to America and I was twenty one,

1336
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:09,679
Speaker 11: because they want many jobs for me at home.

1337
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,160
Speaker 7: Like there's something very arrogant about thinking that you can

1338
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 7: decide whether someone else has a right to exist totally,

1339
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,679
Speaker 7: And I think that's kind of what migration policies are.

1340
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,559
Speaker 11: Yeah, and as you pointed out, they were established after

1341
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,759
Speaker 11: the after the Second World War with a very narrow

1342
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 11: set of categories. Don't include not only do not include

1343
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:33,640
Speaker 11: climate change, but also like generalized violence, right, the generalized veru.

1344
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, Actually fleeing from a war is not is not

1345
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 7: making you a real refugee according to international law.

1346
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, which is something people don't know.

1347
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 7: So like an average sharing refugee is actually legally not a.

1348
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 11: Refugee, right. Yeah, they are flying in.

1349
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 7: Discriminate violence, but not like they don't have like political

1350
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 7: they don't have a right to political asylum.

1351
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:56,800
Speaker 11: Yeah, Or people in Ecuador will will talk to talk

1352
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 11: to people from Ecuador a lot, you know, and they'll

1353
01:13:58,280 --> 01:13:59,840
Speaker 11: be like, well, you've seen men they took over the

1354
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 11: TA TV station, So there's some gangs to go over

1355
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 11: a TV station there recently, and it's kind of an

1356
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:06,639
Speaker 11: armed takeover. And then like, as you can see, would

1357
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 11: you want your child growing up there, you know, if

1358
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 11: you had children, and of course it's a very compelling argument,

1359
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 11: and if I was in their position with young children.

1360
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 11: Want guy I met the other day his son needed

1361
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 11: medical care that he couldn't obtain in his country. You know,

1362
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 11: like that's a perfectly valid reason for coming here. But

1363
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,840
Speaker 11: none of those things count for asylum. So those people

1364
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 11: are i'd a lumped into quote unquote economic migrants, which

1365
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 11: is still you know, like people have a right to

1366
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 11: a living wage and to be able to pay for

1367
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 11: their family, to have the things that they need to

1368
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 11: survive and thrive. But you're right, the asylum system is

1369
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:41,679
Speaker 11: very narrow.

1370
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:45,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, and we should also not forget that, even if

1371
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 5: we're excluding war, you can't really separate migration from the

1372
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 5: things the West has done in those other countries to

1373
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 5: maintain that neo colonial relationship, and you know, those keep

1374
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 5: those people dependent on whatever whims there are in the West,

1375
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:10,599
Speaker 5: and whether that's for resources, whether that's for because there

1376
01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 5: were like the communist regimes there that we weren't happy with. Like,

1377
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:18,720
Speaker 5: you can't separate that. You can separate the conditions that

1378
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 5: are happening there right now to things that have been

1379
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 5: decided in the West years prior.

1380
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 11: Yeah, very true. All right, we're back. Have you enjoyed

1381
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 11: those adverts for products and services following our discussion on

1382
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 11: how capitalism has made life unliverable in certain parts of

1383
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 11: the world, So Mick kil let's pick up with you

1384
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:51,720
Speaker 11: explaining this to see border to.

1385
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 5: Us Well, I found a very nice scholarly article that

1386
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 5: breaks down how the EU borders work and makes a

1387
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 5: very clear distinction between the different layers that protect fortress Europe.

1388
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:09,320
Speaker 5: These layers will be called the paper border, which largely

1389
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:14,599
Speaker 5: consists of visa policies and similar bureaucracy that regulates movement

1390
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 5: to the EU and within it. Then we have the

1391
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 5: iron border, which is exactly what you imagine it. To me,

1392
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 5: it's the physical structures and forms of control that we

1393
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 5: put up to keep people out. And then we have

1394
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:33,720
Speaker 5: the post border, and that's about the reception of migrants,

1395
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:38,800
Speaker 5: migrant shelters and similar constructions that keep migrants and refugees

1396
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:44,680
Speaker 5: ostracized and isolated even after being allowed access into the

1397
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 5: EU and having started a asylum process. For those stories,

1398
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 5: we should turn to Rows when we get there, because

1399
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 5: she is much more on the ground experience than I

1400
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 5: have with this, so we'll start with the paper border.

1401
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 5: During the mid eighties, the e WHO started to propose

1402
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 5: and enact a series of treaties and policies that in

1403
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 5: effect strengthened the external borders and loosened the borders within Europe.

1404
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 5: I think no one is particularly interested in this series

1405
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:18,320
Speaker 5: of treaties, so I will name the only one is

1406
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:24,520
Speaker 5: the Shangan Treaty. This treaty essentially unites the external borders

1407
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,759
Speaker 5: under EU command rather than as a task for individual states.

1408
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:32,400
Speaker 5: In practice, this also means that EU citizens who have

1409
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:38,280
Speaker 5: a proper documentation can move freely between countries. Are who

1410
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:42,759
Speaker 5: have signed the Shangan Treaty for holidays or work os,

1411
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 5: You and I we could move to Germany tomorrow if

1412
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,800
Speaker 5: we wanted to, and I have little to know obstacles

1413
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:49,560
Speaker 5: in terms.

1414
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:54,639
Speaker 7: Of documentary Economically independent though, like that is very crucial

1415
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 7: about EO. Your fraend of movement is conditional.

1416
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 11: On you making money, yeah, having enough money to support yourself,

1417
01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 11: but you can move like This is very funny because

1418
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 11: it pissed off British people who are living in Spain

1419
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:10,559
Speaker 11: right when they when Britain brexited, because they hadn't realized

1420
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:13,200
Speaker 11: that they would impact them. They you know, like such

1421
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:14,519
Speaker 11: as a god thought it was.

1422
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 7: Only the Polish that we yeah, like the undesirable migrants.

1423
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 7: But yes, yes, assumed themselves to be desirable.

1424
01:18:21,360 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, well yeah, I don't think we use the word

1425
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 11: expat right like Britain would use the word expact to

1426
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 11: describe a migrant from Britain to Spain, like it's yeah,

1427
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 11: it's really culou. I mean I've lived in France, in Spain,

1428
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 11: of fifd in Belgium and I was, I guess, somewhat

1429
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:39,720
Speaker 11: economically independent, made twelve thousand years a year as a

1430
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 11: bike racer, but that was you know, I could do that.

1431
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 11: It was very easy for me.

1432
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:44,680
Speaker 5: But it is.

1433
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:47,200
Speaker 7: I do think it's important because I think it's one

1434
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:51,439
Speaker 7: of those post border things that what we see for

1435
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 7: some point analysis that most homeless people here are not

1436
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 7: the undocumented migrants, they are not the refugees or Dutch people,

1437
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 7: but they're EU migrants. So people have low paying jobs,

1438
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 7: break their legs, get kicked out of their houses and

1439
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 7: their jobs, and are not welcoming the homeless shelters because

1440
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 7: in Endlands says well, you are not economically independent therefore,

1441
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 7: so this is also part of the migration regime, and

1442
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,559
Speaker 7: this is also part of keeping migrants exploitable. Even if

1443
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 7: you use citizens have the right to work, they don't.

1444
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 7: They're only allowed to work. We only want them if

1445
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:28,639
Speaker 7: they bring in economic profits. We don't want them when

1446
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 7: they're sick or.

1447
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 2: In need or whatever.

1448
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then mostly we want them for jobs that

1449
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 5: we feel too good to actually do. When I was younger,

1450
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:40,800
Speaker 5: I used to work in a greenhouse, and there's an

1451
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 5: immense amount of people from like Poland or other Eastern

1452
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 5: European countries coming there because Dutch people tend not to

1453
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 5: want to work in a greenhouse. It's one of those things.

1454
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 11: It's an extension of that like a colonial perspective. Right,

1455
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:00,639
Speaker 11: these are jobs for.

1456
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 5: Us exactly because you get your hands dirty and we

1457
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:09,719
Speaker 5: can't have that here. To put the whole thing about

1458
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 5: the paper border into less academic term, the EU started

1459
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 5: to act like a nation state and started to make

1460
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 5: sharp distinctions between native and non native European citizens. I

1461
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:24,799
Speaker 5: think it's worth pointing out that what counts as EU

1462
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:30,040
Speaker 5: is also a supposed European identity. It's very closely tied

1463
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 5: to geographical location and therefore also implicitly linked to Christianity.

1464
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 5: Countries that are largely non Christian but connected to Europe

1465
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:44,600
Speaker 5: tend to be excluded. Turkey is partially in Europe but

1466
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 5: not part of the EU, and Bosnia Herzegovina, which is

1467
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 5: a majority Muslim country, is also excluded from that. But

1468
01:20:55,680 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 5: much like Turkey is being tempted with the whole you

1469
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:03,720
Speaker 5: can join if you do this and that, but we're

1470
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 5: not really committing to that. That, however, is a story

1471
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 5: for another time. Maybe the point that I want to

1472
01:21:10,040 --> 01:21:12,760
Speaker 5: make here is that the visa program for Europe is

1473
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 5: based on geographical discrimination. Countries outside the geography of Europe

1474
01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:21,639
Speaker 5: are blacklisted and cannot gain access to the papers that

1475
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:26,280
Speaker 5: they need to legally enter the EU. This bureaucracy prohibits

1476
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:30,559
Speaker 5: people from entering the EU before fences or border guards

1477
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 5: have even entered the equation, hence the paper border, since

1478
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 5: entering or crossing without a paper visa is nah impossible.

1479
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, I would like to add, of course, like it

1480
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 7: is geographical discrimination, but of course indirectly it is discrimination

1481
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,519
Speaker 7: based on class and race. So it is yea color

1482
01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:52,280
Speaker 7: but not the super rich people of color. And it

1483
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:56,960
Speaker 7: is yeah, it is. It is formerly colonized countries that

1484
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 7: are largely that even have an obligation to get so

1485
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:04,680
Speaker 7: people from the US can travel visa free, same for

1486
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:09,719
Speaker 7: people from Australia. So this is like, it is very ironic.

1487
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:13,000
Speaker 7: I find that it's in Europe it's considered legal to

1488
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 7: discriminate based on nationality, even though it is very clearly

1489
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:20,800
Speaker 7: a very smart way to discriminate actually people based on

1490
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,600
Speaker 7: the color of their skin and their economic status.

1491
01:22:24,040 --> 01:22:28,160
Speaker 5: Exactly what you said, Rose Like all the countries that

1492
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 5: are backlisted are like from the the global South, so

1493
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:35,960
Speaker 5: to speak, almost all of them. But I talked to

1494
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 5: about this with a professor of mine a while back,

1495
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 5: and I think if you can put down like thirty

1496
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:44,720
Speaker 5: thousand euros, then you can get a visa even if

1497
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:45,759
Speaker 5: you're from those countries.

1498
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:49,040
Speaker 7: Exactly. So the super rich, actually, the super rich have

1499
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 7: freedom of movements. Yeah, but the it is always the

1500
01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 7: poor migrants whose movement is problematic.

1501
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 11: And whose movement is Yeah. It Britain and in the

1502
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 11: US there's a lot of discourse about like open borders.

1503
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:05,680
Speaker 11: I've noticed like, oh, the borders open, right, Like the

1504
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 11: border has always been open to people like me. I

1505
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 11: live in the United States, right, I am a US citizen.

1506
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 11: Now I'm also a British citizen. I've lived and worked

1507
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:17,320
Speaker 11: in Spain. I've lived and worked in France. I've lived

1508
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 11: and worked in Belgium. I can go and I can

1509
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 11: get a visa to Iraq. I can get a visa

1510
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:23,719
Speaker 11: to anywhere I want. The borders have always been open

1511
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:28,559
Speaker 11: to white people who have financial means. What they're saying

1512
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,479
Speaker 11: when they're saying open borders is implicitly borders open to

1513
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:35,240
Speaker 11: people who are not white, not wealthy, perhaps not Christian.

1514
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:40,160
Speaker 11: And what one can infer from that is a great

1515
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:43,839
Speaker 11: deal of bigotry and a great deal of like unease

1516
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:47,559
Speaker 11: about living, you know, alongside people who you feel like

1517
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 11: are not like the same quote unquote as you, which

1518
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 11: is particularly runic in the United States, right in a

1519
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:55,080
Speaker 11: country which is a self a settler colony.

1520
01:23:55,840 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's all very very uplifting stuff. I do want

1521
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 5: to end this particular bit with the quote from that

1522
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:08,679
Speaker 5: article because I think it says it much more fancy

1523
01:24:08,720 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 5: than I ever could. Rather than guards with guns, this

1524
01:24:11,800 --> 01:24:14,880
Speaker 5: first border, if the EU is watched over by bureaucrats

1525
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 5: armed with paper and entrenched in faraway embassies, through this

1526
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:23,879
Speaker 5: political technology, all citizens of a large group of nations

1527
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:28,720
Speaker 5: bar to view are blacklisted. This means, in practice that

1528
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,360
Speaker 5: most of the citizens of these blacklisted countries cannot acquire

1529
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 5: the visas they required to legally travel to the EU.

1530
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 5: The implication is that the paper border of the EU

1531
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:44,320
Speaker 5: remotely and invisibly cages people in the inequitable or tree

1532
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:48,439
Speaker 5: of birth end quote. I think it's very much worth

1533
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 5: highlighting that if you're as we've established, unless you're like

1534
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:59,920
Speaker 5: wealthy or white, you cannot legally enter the EU. And

1535
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 5: even though our politicians keep saying no, no, we're just

1536
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 5: against the illegals, now, there is for a lot of people,

1537
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 5: there simply is no way to enter legally. It's impossible,

1538
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:14,080
Speaker 5: And it's a large part of the conversation that we

1539
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:19,480
Speaker 5: conveniently ignore because it doesn't fit like the political narratives

1540
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:20,839
Speaker 5: that people want to spread.

1541
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, and of course, most retched deconventions allow for people

1542
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 11: to enter between ports of entry in whichever way they

1543
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:30,880
Speaker 11: can to claim asylum, Like one does not have to

1544
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 11: enter in a certain way to claim asylum, despite what

1545
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:35,679
Speaker 11: the discourse might suggest.

1546
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I think this border is like probably the

1547
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 7: most overlooked because it doesn't create any dramatic pictures, right,

1548
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 7: it is indeed, it's just people sitting in an office

1549
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:49,040
Speaker 7: and looking at papers and deciding no. But these are

1550
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 7: like in Dutch. Yeah, these are people working at the

1551
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 7: immigration office. And these are the people who then decide

1552
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 7: that's the only option for people is to go on

1553
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:04,320
Speaker 7: a boat. So these these are policies and the people

1554
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 7: who are executing them are super crucial in enforcing people

1555
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 7: onto dangerous.

1556
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:13,960
Speaker 5: Routes exactly because there is no way to do it legally. Therefore,

1557
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:17,799
Speaker 5: I have to set food on that soil and then

1558
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 5: you know, apply for asylum because the other route is

1559
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 5: like before I even tried, already closed off.

1560
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:30,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I really like that term, the inequitable a birth.

1561
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 7: We call it like support heads. Yeah, but it's one

1562
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 7: of the most insane or like most fundamentally unjust things

1563
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:44,479
Speaker 7: that we see that we are living with and then

1564
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 7: we don't see or like that many people don't see.

1565
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 7: So just because we were born, like I was born

1566
01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 7: in one of the richest countries of in the world.

1567
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:54,720
Speaker 7: My parents had a Dutch fashboard. That's how I got

1568
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 7: a Dutch fastboard. I did literally nothing to get that.

1569
01:26:58,240 --> 01:27:00,519
Speaker 7: It is impossible for me to lose my Dutch passport.

1570
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:03,599
Speaker 7: I commit, I can commit like the worst crimes, and

1571
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 7: they will not, you know, they will not lead me

1572
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 7: to lose my passport. Whereas other people who are born

1573
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 7: in countries where life expectancy is crazy low, or where

1574
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 7: there's no healthcare or no proper education or jobs, they

1575
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 7: too did absolutely nothing to be born there or to

1576
01:27:19,240 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 7: be assigned to that nationality. And so somehow this border

1577
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 7: and this passport is legitimizing the fact that some people

1578
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 7: just die and we're fine with that, and other people

1579
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 7: have insane privileges and opportunities, and the nationality is kind

1580
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:42,439
Speaker 7: of a justification because if you really think about it,

1581
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 7: there is no reason why the minimum wage in Ethiopia

1582
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 7: should be lower than in the Netlands, Like there really isn't.

1583
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 7: The only reason is that they have a different nationality,

1584
01:27:52,360 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 7: and somehow that makes it normal. And if it's just yeah,

1585
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 7: it's just this injustice. Its structures that are so invisible

1586
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:04,800
Speaker 7: and that are not questioned or talked about enough. So

1587
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:06,240
Speaker 7: I'm glad we're talking about it today.

1588
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:09,280
Speaker 11: But yeah, good. It's such a stark reality when you

1589
01:28:09,320 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 11: live on the border, like I live on the US

1590
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:15,160
Speaker 11: Mexico border a like what on earth? Like, you know,

1591
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:18,320
Speaker 11: the justification for being like, oh, yeah, this person should

1592
01:28:18,320 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 11: earn less money and they can't come here, but you

1593
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:21,720
Speaker 11: can go down there and buy stuff at the same

1594
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 11: price they can. That's fine, Like it's totally fine. Yeah,

1595
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:28,519
Speaker 11: and we're going to build a giant fuck off wall.

1596
01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:32,559
Speaker 11: And it's just such when I spent a lot of

1597
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 11: time in the more remote parts of the US border,

1598
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 11: and for most of the time that border country to

1599
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:39,040
Speaker 11: what you might have seen on the news is a

1600
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:42,439
Speaker 11: one meter high cattle fence with a single strand a

1601
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:45,160
Speaker 11: bar wire, and it's so obviously just a light like

1602
01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:48,920
Speaker 11: very often cattle will cross the border and like that

1603
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:52,880
Speaker 11: will have to be herded back, right, like the it's

1604
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 11: just a notional line in the sand. When they built

1605
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:58,759
Speaker 11: the border wall, it really fucked up the migration habits

1606
01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:01,520
Speaker 11: of jaguar bears.

1607
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:02,160
Speaker 4: Dea.

1608
01:29:02,280 --> 01:29:06,360
Speaker 11: I've seen animals unable to comprehend, Like, but no, that's

1609
01:29:06,360 --> 01:29:08,360
Speaker 11: where I go and get my water, right, Like, it's

1610
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 11: such an arbitrary distinction that it results in so much cruelty.

1611
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:15,200
Speaker 7: But we do build walls better than you.

1612
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's a good segue to the European iron boarder.

1613
01:29:19,439 --> 01:29:22,520
Speaker 7: One thing we are more cruel at than the Americans.

1614
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, finally something we can beat the American sets.

1615
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:27,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm mad.

1616
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 11: We're working on it, believe me.

1617
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 5: Okay, well, not too hard. We want we want to

1618
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 5: keep this trophy for a while.

1619
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:37,240
Speaker 11: You know what else is competing to be the most

1620
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:42,680
Speaker 11: cruel Mick, No, it's it's it's potentially the products and

1621
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 11: services support this show. All right, we're back. We hope

1622
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:58,439
Speaker 11: you enjoyed those products and services. Hopefully it wasn't for

1623
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:03,720
Speaker 11: like a border surveillance technology or you know, something similar walls.

1624
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:08,080
Speaker 5: Okay, so the next part is the Iron Border. This

1625
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 5: is very similar to what people already think of, but

1626
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:16,000
Speaker 5: somehow worse. The Iron border is a collection of fences, walls,

1627
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:20,200
Speaker 5: barbed and razor wire, or even fortified enclaves such as

1628
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:25,439
Speaker 5: Suta and Melilla in Spain. Sorry for butchering those names.

1629
01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:30,639
Speaker 5: It is both a deterrent and a performance like. It's

1630
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 5: meant to project security for people within the walls. It

1631
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 5: shows that EU uses an iron fist to protect Europeans

1632
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:44,639
Speaker 5: from irregular or illegal immigrant migration. What is more important

1633
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:47,799
Speaker 5: to highlight, it also makes for very good outrage media

1634
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:52,240
Speaker 5: for right wing and fascist platforms. Refugees will continue to

1635
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:56,360
Speaker 5: breach those fences, and the photographs and videos of it

1636
01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:59,560
Speaker 5: made for very good propaganda about how borders need to

1637
01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 5: be strengthed. The fence borders of Europe have increased from

1638
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 5: three hundred kilometers in twenty fourteen to its shocking two

1639
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 5: thousand and forty eight kilometers in twenty twenty two.

1640
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:17,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's substantiary than the US we have. Of course,

1641
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:21,759
Speaker 11: it's America, so it's miles. But the most generous estimate

1642
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:26,600
Speaker 11: based on pre existing wall repairs Trump wall building is

1643
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,840
Speaker 11: seven hundred and forty eight miles. That was actually I

1644
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:31,720
Speaker 11: would say about seven hundred and fifty because I've seen

1645
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:36,400
Speaker 11: construction happening since then, so that's what like eleven hundred kilometers.

1646
01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:39,720
Speaker 11: It's you know, we're just just over half of what

1647
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:40,840
Speaker 11: the EU has.

1648
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:44,720
Speaker 7: And I think for me, like when I when I

1649
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:48,400
Speaker 7: was at the physical borders, like the border walls, I

1650
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,160
Speaker 7: mean it feels like a military zone, like I was

1651
01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:54,120
Speaker 7: on the Hungarian border. There's drones, there is super heavily

1652
01:31:54,840 --> 01:32:00,320
Speaker 7: weaponed soldiers walking around, like helicopters flying around. It's a

1653
01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:04,719
Speaker 7: very intimidating feeling. But if you talk to the people

1654
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 7: crossing the fence, the fence is kind of a joke,

1655
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 7: like you can just bring Yeah, you can just go

1656
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:13,120
Speaker 7: to a gardening shop and buy a stairs or like

1657
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:15,800
Speaker 7: a ladder and just put it over the fence. You

1658
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 7: can buy a super simple scissor that you would use

1659
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:20,519
Speaker 7: in the garden to cut your vegetables and you can

1660
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:23,720
Speaker 7: cut the fence open with it. People were building tunnels,

1661
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 7: like of course it takes time to cross it, and

1662
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:31,880
Speaker 7: it's so in that sense, it's a hindrance. But the

1663
01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:35,479
Speaker 7: entire promise that if a wall holl stop people is indeed,

1664
01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:38,519
Speaker 7: it's just a political game, and the politicians know that

1665
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 7: it's not true. It's just a way to show how

1666
01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:45,800
Speaker 7: tough they are and how rough they are. And at

1667
01:32:45,800 --> 01:32:48,599
Speaker 7: the same time, I think this is a good moment

1668
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 7: to instate on Palestine to the discussion. So most of

1669
01:32:54,880 --> 01:32:58,720
Speaker 7: the European borders are equipped with razor wire, and that

1670
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:02,840
Speaker 7: is literally like knives wire, you know, like it is

1671
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 7: like it's razors.

1672
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:06,320
Speaker 11: Its half razor blades.

1673
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, and this is designed by the Israeli army and

1674
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 7: weapons industry, and the aim of this razor wire is

1675
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:17,559
Speaker 7: to gut as deeply as possible into people's skin without

1676
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:20,880
Speaker 7: causing pain, so people don't realize how realize how heavily

1677
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:24,080
Speaker 7: wounded they are, in order to make them bleed as

1678
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:27,519
Speaker 7: much as possible. This has been tested in Gaza, and

1679
01:33:30,280 --> 01:33:33,799
Speaker 7: Israeli army liked it, and now it's sold in Europe

1680
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:38,639
Speaker 7: to sometimes stop the same people leaving fleeing Gaza trying

1681
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 7: to reach Europe. So the border in one hand is

1682
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:44,920
Speaker 7: kind of useless, but at the same time, it is

1683
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:48,440
Speaker 7: really built to be as cruel and as harmful as possible.

1684
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 7: And I know a lot of people with a lot

1685
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:54,680
Speaker 7: of scars on their bodies just from those razor wires.

1686
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,719
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think if we want to draw that connection further,

1687
01:33:57,960 --> 01:34:01,720
Speaker 11: like Lbit Technologies has mass, multi tens of million dollar

1688
01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:04,559
Speaker 11: contracts for border surveillance where I live. Right, the same

1689
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:08,120
Speaker 11: things that are surveiling people in Gaza are surveilling you

1690
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:11,200
Speaker 11: if you go for a hike in East County, San Diego,

1691
01:34:11,240 --> 01:34:12,759
Speaker 11: they're also surveilling migrants.

1692
01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:13,040
Speaker 1: Right.

1693
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:18,240
Speaker 11: The raser ware that you mentioned is everywhere out here. Right.

1694
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:21,520
Speaker 11: It doesn't work, it gets cut eventually, it gets blankets

1695
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,120
Speaker 11: thrown over it, But in the meantime, it hurts people

1696
01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 11: the wall itself, right, there's also walls between Itsrael and Palestine,

1697
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:35,200
Speaker 11: between Kurdistan and Turkey. What they, at least these larger

1698
01:34:35,240 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 11: ones do is is they force people. The US Wall

1699
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:42,200
Speaker 11: is also one that's entirely breachable. I've seen people climbing it.

1700
01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 11: I've seen people climbing it this week. I've seen people

1701
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 11: go under it, I've seen people go through it, I've

1702
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 11: seen people go around it. But what it does tend

1703
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:51,920
Speaker 11: to do is force people into the more remote areas

1704
01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:55,120
Speaker 11: where they didn't build wall, and those areas are where

1705
01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:57,519
Speaker 11: you're more likely to die. And every year that we've

1706
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 11: built more wall, we've seen more deaths. And as someone

1707
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:04,400
Speaker 11: who engages in mutual aid, every year that they build

1708
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:06,840
Speaker 11: more wall, we have to think about where will people go,

1709
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 11: how will they get there, what state will they be in,

1710
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:12,400
Speaker 11: How can we make this journey less deadly, and that

1711
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,360
Speaker 11: becomes harder and higher for us. You know, we did

1712
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:17,960
Speaker 11: a water drop on Sunday. It took us five hours

1713
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 11: to hike a very small section of this trail that

1714
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:24,240
Speaker 11: people hiked in order to surrender themselves, just as they

1715
01:35:24,240 --> 01:35:26,800
Speaker 11: would if they could come through important entry, but it's

1716
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 11: a lot more deadly.

1717
01:35:27,600 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 7: Yeah. I think that's kind of some sort of most

1718
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:35,160
Speaker 7: migration policies or migration like obstacles to migration in Europe

1719
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:38,639
Speaker 7: as well. They don't actually stop migrants, but they do

1720
01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:42,520
Speaker 7: hurt them, and they do push them into danger or actual.

1721
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:48,120
Speaker 5: Deadly Yeah, because you're never going to stop it, but

1722
01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:53,679
Speaker 5: you can use like quote unquote deterrents in the holes

1723
01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:55,719
Speaker 5: that it will all slow down, but you're just going

1724
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:57,240
Speaker 5: to get people hurt and killed.

1725
01:35:57,800 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1726
01:35:58,320 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, that is like how incredibly cinecle the border is.

1727
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:06,679
Speaker 7: I think that the main desurance is the people dying,

1728
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:12,040
Speaker 7: and that this is part of the political game to

1729
01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:13,880
Speaker 7: disencourage vibrants.

1730
01:36:14,960 --> 01:36:17,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then you can and then you can use

1731
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:22,320
Speaker 5: other policies that we'll get to to present yourself as

1732
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:24,240
Speaker 5: the good guy for wanting to make sure that people

1733
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:28,240
Speaker 5: don't cross those walls or across the Mediterranean, and you

1734
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:30,400
Speaker 5: can present yourself as the good guy trying to prevent

1735
01:36:30,439 --> 01:36:35,000
Speaker 5: those steps that your policies are causing.

1736
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:36,679
Speaker 11: I think that's what we're going to end it for today.

1737
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 11: We plan for this to be a one part episode,

1738
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:40,960
Speaker 11: but we really enjoyed talking and we had a learning comment,

1739
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 11: so this is going to be a two parter. Tomorrow

1740
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:46,240
Speaker 11: we will be back to discuss the EU's external border

1741
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:49,160
Speaker 11: and how it has non EU countries enforcing its border

1742
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:53,280
Speaker 11: in ways that are very detrimental, damaging, and deadly to migrants.

1743
01:36:53,360 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 11: So I hope you look forward to that and we'll

1744
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:55,759
Speaker 11: see you again tomorrow.

1745
01:37:01,080 --> 01:37:01,160
Speaker 7: Hi.

1746
01:37:01,240 --> 01:37:03,800
Speaker 11: Everyone, it's me James, and I just wanted to read

1747
01:37:03,840 --> 01:37:05,519
Speaker 11: you this today. We're going to put it in our

1748
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:08,519
Speaker 11: episode this week because it's a cause that's important to us,

1749
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:10,880
Speaker 11: and so we thought it would be something that might

1750
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:13,000
Speaker 11: be important to you too as well. On the tenth

1751
01:37:13,040 --> 01:37:16,360
Speaker 11: of June twenty twenty four, Lennard Peltier, an enrolled member

1752
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:19,120
Speaker 11: of the Turtle Band of Chippewa of Lakota and Ajibwei

1753
01:37:19,200 --> 01:37:22,639
Speaker 11: ancestry and the longest serving political prisoner in the United States,

1754
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:25,479
Speaker 11: will be appearing before the US Parole Commission for the

1755
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:28,840
Speaker 11: first time since two thousand and nine. He faces staunch

1756
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 11: opposition from the FBI and other law enforcement agencies due

1757
01:37:33,040 --> 01:37:36,160
Speaker 11: to having allegedly killed two FBI agents in a firefight

1758
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:39,519
Speaker 11: on the twenty sixth of June nineteen seventy five. After

1759
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:43,599
Speaker 11: the agents appeared on reservation land to execute a pretextural warrant.

1760
01:37:44,479 --> 01:37:47,759
Speaker 11: The initial firefight occurred during the quote reign of terror

1761
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:50,200
Speaker 11: on Pine Ridge in the wake of the occupation of

1762
01:37:50,240 --> 01:37:53,320
Speaker 11: Wounded Kney, a time of extreme violence when federal law

1763
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:56,960
Speaker 11: enforcement installed a puppet tribal chair and was arming vigilantes

1764
01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:01,519
Speaker 11: who targeted Indigenous traditionalists. Everything leading up to these events,

1765
01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:06,639
Speaker 11: as well as subsequent investigation and mister Peltier's extradition, trial, conviction,

1766
01:38:06,920 --> 01:38:10,320
Speaker 11: and sentencing, were characterized by gross misconduct on the part

1767
01:38:10,360 --> 01:38:15,080
Speaker 11: of law enforcement, the prosecution, and the courts. Mister Peltier's

1768
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:17,800
Speaker 11: co defendants were separately tried and acquitted on grounds of

1769
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:21,920
Speaker 11: self defense. Mister Peltier was railroaded, and his case is

1770
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:25,280
Speaker 11: tainted by discrimination at every level, ranging from the withholding

1771
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:28,400
Speaker 11: of exculpatory evidence to the torture and coercion of extradition

1772
01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:31,599
Speaker 11: and trial witnesses, and from the refusal of the judge

1773
01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:35,720
Speaker 11: to dismiss and vowedly racist Dura to the apologetic gymnastics

1774
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:37,920
Speaker 11: of the courts affirming his convictions in the face of

1775
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:42,360
Speaker 11: meritorious legal challenges and admitted evidence of outrageous government misdeeds.

1776
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 11: Mister Peltier has been in prison for more than forty

1777
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 11: eight years and he's almost eighty years old. He suffers

1778
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:53,679
Speaker 11: from chronic and potentially lethal conditions for which he receives

1779
01:38:53,720 --> 01:38:57,720
Speaker 11: insufficient and substandard medical care. If you want to take

1780
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:01,640
Speaker 11: action to hashtag free Lennard Heltier, you can call the

1781
01:39:01,720 --> 01:39:05,880
Speaker 11: US Parole Commission at two zero two three four six

1782
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:10,080
Speaker 11: seven zero zero zero, And if you'd like to find

1783
01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:12,000
Speaker 11: more information on how to support, you can go to

1784
01:39:12,040 --> 01:39:15,040
Speaker 11: this u r L. It's h t T P colon

1785
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:20,720
Speaker 11: slash slash n D N C O dot c c

1786
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:27,000
Speaker 11: slash free Leonard Peltier. That's f R e E L

1787
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:30,840
Speaker 11: e O n A R d P e L t

1788
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:33,519
Speaker 11: I E R or you can follow n d N

1789
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:36,920
Speaker 11: collective on social media for more ways to support him.

1790
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:40,120
Speaker 11: More information on Leonard Peltier, listen to Margaret's podcast on

1791
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:42,560
Speaker 11: the Lakota Nation, a read in the Spirit of the

1792
01:39:42,640 --> 01:40:00,160
Speaker 11: Crazy Horse by Peter Mathewson. Hi, we're back, and just

1793
01:40:00,160 --> 01:40:02,599
Speaker 11: to remind people, if you haven't listened to the episode yesterday,

1794
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:05,760
Speaker 11: you probably won't pick up what's going on today, So

1795
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:08,800
Speaker 11: I suggest starting there as we commence on our second

1796
01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:11,680
Speaker 11: part of the discussion about the EUS border. Today we're

1797
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:14,479
Speaker 11: going to discuss the EU's external border and what that

1798
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:19,240
Speaker 11: means for migrants. We'll pick up with Mick and Rose

1799
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:21,599
Speaker 11: and we'll start off more or less where we left

1800
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:25,000
Speaker 11: off yesterday. Like you can map, and I'm not the

1801
01:40:25,040 --> 01:40:27,240
Speaker 11: first one to have made these maps, but you can

1802
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:29,880
Speaker 11: look at humane borders in Arizona, and then you can

1803
01:40:29,960 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 11: look at EFF's map of fixed and mobile towers and

1804
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:36,080
Speaker 11: you can see people. And again, this is something I'm

1805
01:40:36,280 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 11: more familiar with, and I'd like to be people dying

1806
01:40:38,680 --> 01:40:42,400
Speaker 11: in the shade of the surveillance towers, without help, without water,

1807
01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:45,840
Speaker 11: without the very minor things that it would take for

1808
01:40:45,920 --> 01:40:49,360
Speaker 11: them not to have died. And so yeah, this provides justification.

1809
01:40:50,040 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 11: It provides a massive outlet for the post War on

1810
01:40:53,080 --> 01:40:58,000
Speaker 11: Terror like military industrial complex to continue to make its money,

1811
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:01,920
Speaker 11: and to continue to make its money through innocent people dying.

1812
01:41:03,920 --> 01:41:07,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was either a Polish Frontex or

1813
01:41:08,880 --> 01:41:12,639
Speaker 5: the Transnational Institute. I got some hands on some literature

1814
01:41:12,640 --> 01:41:17,479
Speaker 5: they were spreading, and there is a direct you can

1815
01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:20,280
Speaker 5: draw a direct line between like the end of the

1816
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:26,599
Speaker 5: Cold War in the nineties, with military industrial complex having

1817
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:29,479
Speaker 5: to fight new ways to sell their products to states.

1818
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:32,800
Speaker 5: And that's also why the order keeps getting more and

1819
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 5: more militarized, because this is the one point where they

1820
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:38,439
Speaker 5: can still sell a lot of things without their having

1821
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:39,000
Speaker 5: to be a war.

1822
01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:39,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1823
01:41:40,240 --> 01:41:43,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's like a very serious lobby of companies who

1824
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:46,840
Speaker 7: just want to make money out of making our borders deadly.

1825
01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:48,880
Speaker 7: And they're really successful.

1826
01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:51,439
Speaker 11: Actually yeah. I think they just want to make money

1827
01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:53,559
Speaker 11: and they don't care if they make up boarders deadly

1828
01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:58,400
Speaker 11: like they the end goal is always profit for them,

1829
01:41:58,479 --> 01:42:01,360
Speaker 11: right like, and everything else is consequent to that.

1830
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:04,880
Speaker 5: Think of the stockholders, they have to live as well.

1831
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:11,400
Speaker 5: What I personally find most troubling is this extension of

1832
01:42:11,479 --> 01:42:16,240
Speaker 5: the Iron border into non European countries. So the EU

1833
01:42:16,400 --> 01:42:20,120
Speaker 5: is making deals with countries in which for the in

1834
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:23,960
Speaker 5: exchange for large sums of money that those countries are

1835
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:28,759
Speaker 5: now containing or stopping migrants and refugees from ever leaving

1836
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:32,920
Speaker 5: the Middle East Africa. Like Rose said earlier, the Turkey

1837
01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:37,439
Speaker 5: deal is essentially a political deal between the EU and

1838
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:41,320
Speaker 5: Turkey for Turkey to hold a portion of Syrian refugees

1839
01:42:41,760 --> 01:42:45,519
Speaker 5: over within their border to stop them from coming into Europe.

1840
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:50,960
Speaker 5: And I think we paid a few billion, more than

1841
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 5: a few billion probably for Turkey to do that. So

1842
01:42:55,080 --> 01:42:59,080
Speaker 5: the most prominent of these deals are, as i said, Turkey,

1843
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:04,040
Speaker 5: but also Tunisia and Libya. We're essentially outsourcing the abuse

1844
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 5: and human rights violations to countries that are outside the

1845
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:11,000
Speaker 5: scope of our media, who have regimes that we would

1846
01:43:11,000 --> 01:43:15,200
Speaker 5: declare dictatorships and autocracies. In the case of Libya, it's

1847
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:20,320
Speaker 5: even like rebels and warlords being funded with EU taxpayer money. Today,

1848
01:43:20,400 --> 01:43:23,000
Speaker 5: the eupack with Libya has given rise to a full

1849
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:26,639
Speaker 5: fledged slave market run by cold blooded human traffickers who,

1850
01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:30,960
Speaker 5: incentivized by the EU's crackdown on irregular migration and the

1851
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:35,000
Speaker 5: resulting business downturn of would be profitable passengers, are now

1852
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 5: auctioning economic migrants and refugees as slaves. Yeah, we're just

1853
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:44,559
Speaker 5: doing slavery with extra steps now. So to make it

1854
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:48,479
Speaker 5: inescapably clear how bad the situation is, I'm now going

1855
01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 5: to quote from an Amnesty International article from twenty twenty one.

1856
01:43:52,720 --> 01:43:58,200
Speaker 5: Three Police Shadra al Zawia Center is a facility facility

1857
01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:03,479
Speaker 5: which was pretty obviously run by a non affiliated militia

1858
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:08,960
Speaker 5: and was recently integrated under the DCIM and designated for

1859
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:13,920
Speaker 5: people in vulnerable situations at DCIM is an acronym for

1860
01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 5: Libya's Directorate for Combat in Illegal Migration. It's essentially a

1861
01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:25,080
Speaker 5: department of their Interior Ministry. Former detainees from that facility

1862
01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:28,479
Speaker 5: said that guards raped women and some were cohoersed into

1863
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:31,840
Speaker 5: sex in exchange for their release or for essentials such

1864
01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 5: as clean water grace. A pseudonym said she was heavily

1865
01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:39,320
Speaker 5: beaten for refusing to comply with such a demand. I

1866
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:41,639
Speaker 5: told the guard no. He used the gun to knock

1867
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:44,760
Speaker 5: me back. He used a letter soldier's shoe to kick

1868
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:48,560
Speaker 5: me from my waist. Two young women at the facility

1869
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:51,599
Speaker 5: attempted to commit suicide as a result of such abuse.

1870
01:44:52,439 --> 01:44:55,280
Speaker 5: Three women also said that two babies detained with their

1871
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:58,599
Speaker 5: mothers after an attempted sea crossing had died in early

1872
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:01,920
Speaker 5: twenty twenty one. Their guards refused to transfer them to

1873
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:05,479
Speaker 5: a hospital for a critical medical treatment and it's The

1874
01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:10,599
Speaker 5: International report documents similar patterns of human rights violations, including

1875
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:15,880
Speaker 5: severe beatings, sexual violence, extortion, forced labor, and in human

1876
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:21,240
Speaker 5: conditions across seven DCIM centers in Libya. In Abuisa Center

1877
01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:25,200
Speaker 5: in the city of al Zaya, DTNES reported being deprived

1878
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:28,840
Speaker 5: of nutritious food to the point of starvation end.

1879
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:29,160
Speaker 4: Correct.

1880
01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:35,519
Speaker 7: Yeah, Libya is is just on a completely different level.

1881
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:39,840
Speaker 7: Like we have we have systematic torture on almost all

1882
01:45:39,960 --> 01:45:45,599
Speaker 7: border crossings by European border guards, but Libya just manages

1883
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:54,040
Speaker 7: to do worse than that, just systematically enslave rate, murder, torture.

1884
01:45:54,960 --> 01:45:57,200
Speaker 7: And I think it's important to stress that, Like there's

1885
01:45:57,320 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 7: this Libyan Coast Guard. They're funded by the European Union,

1886
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:04,120
Speaker 7: so the opinion Union will go out with drones support

1887
01:46:04,240 --> 01:46:08,720
Speaker 7: the boat of migrants. Previously, the European Union actually had

1888
01:46:08,800 --> 01:46:14,080
Speaker 7: rescue ships, but the European Union, if a boat is

1889
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:16,879
Speaker 7: near another boat in distress, there's an obligation to rescue,

1890
01:46:17,080 --> 01:46:19,200
Speaker 7: and after the rescue, you have to bring the people

1891
01:46:19,280 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 7: to a safe court. So having a boat at sea

1892
01:46:24,120 --> 01:46:27,560
Speaker 7: meant that the European Border Agency Front Tax was obliged

1893
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:30,720
Speaker 7: to rescue people at sea, and so they just thought,

1894
01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:33,000
Speaker 7: let's just do away with the boats and let's just

1895
01:46:33,080 --> 01:46:36,360
Speaker 7: have helicopters and drones, so we can still spot boats

1896
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:40,960
Speaker 7: that are sinking, but we cannot help them, and instead.

1897
01:46:40,720 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 5: They are obligated to anymore.

1898
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:46,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean they're physically. Yeah, exactly. They they they

1899
01:46:46,680 --> 01:46:50,439
Speaker 7: managed to escape that responsibility under maritime law, and then

1900
01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:54,920
Speaker 7: they paid the Libyan Coast Guard to rescue rescue people

1901
01:46:55,880 --> 01:47:01,040
Speaker 7: quote unquote, Libya is so bad that weally migrants just

1902
01:47:01,280 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 7: jump in the water if they see a Libyan coast

1903
01:47:03,439 --> 01:47:06,000
Speaker 7: guard because people prefer to drown them to be taken

1904
01:47:06,040 --> 01:47:09,160
Speaker 7: back to Libya. The Libyan coast Guard takes the people

1905
01:47:09,240 --> 01:47:12,600
Speaker 7: on the boat, brings them back to Libyan mainland, and

1906
01:47:12,760 --> 01:47:17,160
Speaker 7: actually sells them to the militias running the detention centers.

1907
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:22,120
Speaker 7: So the Libyan Coast Guard gets paid twice for stopping migrants,

1908
01:47:22,200 --> 01:47:25,480
Speaker 7: first by the European Union and secondly by the militias

1909
01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:29,400
Speaker 7: that will later sell them as slates or use them

1910
01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:33,519
Speaker 7: for slavery. And this is what we have been funding

1911
01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:37,720
Speaker 7: for years, and there have been extensive documentation about these

1912
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:41,519
Speaker 7: human rights violations and the very direct link of the

1913
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:43,719
Speaker 7: EU funding, and it just keeps going.

1914
01:47:46,360 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 5: I think it was a year or so back where

1915
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:53,640
Speaker 5: I saw a video of someone, a woman on a

1916
01:47:53,720 --> 01:47:58,800
Speaker 5: dinghy who was just incredibly emotional. She was just exclaiming

1917
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:01,720
Speaker 5: all the time like I'd rather die than go back

1918
01:48:01,800 --> 01:48:03,439
Speaker 5: to Libya, which.

1919
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:06,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's yeah, just literally what it is.

1920
01:48:07,120 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I would encourage that the listeners to just

1921
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:17,920
Speaker 5: google something like Libya migrant detentions or something and look

1922
01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:21,040
Speaker 5: at the pictures because it's you might.

1923
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:24,320
Speaker 7: Get like traumatized, but you will be more aware of

1924
01:48:24,360 --> 01:48:25,280
Speaker 7: the horrors in the world.

1925
01:48:26,000 --> 01:48:26,200
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1926
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:29,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, that they're not great pictures to look at, but

1927
01:48:29,680 --> 01:48:34,080
Speaker 5: thank God for you good sleep. Like, yeah, I think

1928
01:48:34,120 --> 01:48:37,479
Speaker 5: it's important to see those things because that is the

1929
01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:42,120
Speaker 5: reality that we in Europe often do not get to see,

1930
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:45,559
Speaker 5: and this is the reality that has been created by

1931
01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:51,200
Speaker 5: our overlords. So what the EU is doing is to

1932
01:48:51,320 --> 01:48:55,759
Speaker 5: be very blunt, extending its own borders into sovereign territory

1933
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:59,240
Speaker 5: of states outside of Europe to stop migrants from even

1934
01:48:59,400 --> 01:49:03,960
Speaker 5: entering the EU. Proponents of these policies will undoubtedly argue

1935
01:49:04,080 --> 01:49:07,000
Speaker 5: that this saves lives by preventing people from crossing the

1936
01:49:07,080 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 5: Mediterranean in overcrowded boats and ginghis personally, I would argue

1937
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:15,439
Speaker 5: that people will continue to make that crossing if only

1938
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:19,240
Speaker 5: to escape the EU funded hellholes that these regimes create

1939
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:22,960
Speaker 5: in order to get that sweet, sweet EU funding. What

1940
01:49:23,200 --> 01:49:28,519
Speaker 5: is definitely very concerning is that despite criticisms from NGOs

1941
01:49:28,560 --> 01:49:32,880
Speaker 5: such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch Europe will

1942
01:49:33,040 --> 01:49:36,720
Speaker 5: likely continue these practices. Only last year did it sign

1943
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:39,560
Speaker 5: a deal with Tunisia with the attention of using that

1944
01:49:39,800 --> 01:49:43,320
Speaker 5: as a third country, as they call it, to prevent

1945
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:50,040
Speaker 5: sea crossings. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen stated

1946
01:49:50,120 --> 01:49:53,280
Speaker 5: that this could be a blueprint for cooperation with other countries.

1947
01:49:53,760 --> 01:49:56,360
Speaker 5: To the surprise of no one, this will very likely

1948
01:49:56,479 --> 01:50:00,320
Speaker 5: increase the human rights violations and abusance that happen there.

1949
01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:05,240
Speaker 5: And after this, I have two examples of stories that

1950
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:09,280
Speaker 5: that happens at the EU borders that are I think

1951
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:14,080
Speaker 5: particularly the heartbreaking. And this was also the hardest part

1952
01:50:14,400 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 5: for me to write, because there are so many stories

1953
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:21,479
Speaker 5: out there that I think deserve to be heard and

1954
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:27,479
Speaker 5: deserve to have like some lights shone on there just

1955
01:50:29,040 --> 01:50:31,720
Speaker 5: to show people the reality. But that would be that

1956
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:33,839
Speaker 5: would turn into a very very long episode.

1957
01:50:34,720 --> 01:50:37,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, can I can I quickly just I would like

1958
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:42,040
Speaker 7: to say something about the these deals and I think

1959
01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:46,840
Speaker 7: there is something very ironic about the European Union pretending

1960
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:50,800
Speaker 7: to value democracy and human rights and ladlah Well, I

1961
01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:53,479
Speaker 7: mean what you've just said makes it apondantly clear that

1962
01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:57,240
Speaker 7: human rights in Europe are just for Europeans and not

1963
01:50:57,400 --> 01:51:00,000
Speaker 7: for humans. But I would also just like to stretch

1964
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:05,000
Speaker 7: that it's very strange and I think not maybe often

1965
01:51:05,120 --> 01:51:08,080
Speaker 7: enough address that what Europe is doing is it's just

1966
01:51:08,200 --> 01:51:12,560
Speaker 7: bribing countries. It is bribing countries to stop migrants. It

1967
01:51:12,680 --> 01:51:16,280
Speaker 7: is bribing countries to take unwanted migrants back through deportation.

1968
01:51:17,240 --> 01:51:20,360
Speaker 7: It is often also forced to take on its own citizens.

1969
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:24,120
Speaker 7: So it's not only people from Sub Sahara Africa traveling

1970
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:27,120
Speaker 7: through Libya, but it's also Libyan people themselves. So they

1971
01:51:27,160 --> 01:51:30,920
Speaker 7: have elected a government, they have an interest themselves as well,

1972
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:34,719
Speaker 7: maybe in having the ability to move away from Libya,

1973
01:51:35,479 --> 01:51:38,639
Speaker 7: and the you needs to come up with enormous sums

1974
01:51:38,640 --> 01:51:43,040
Speaker 7: of money to force these governments to Yeah, why do

1975
01:51:43,160 --> 01:51:45,280
Speaker 7: they need that money, because that's not in the interest

1976
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:48,760
Speaker 7: of the country or its citizens to do this. And

1977
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:53,960
Speaker 7: especially in the Netherlands, there is this enormous Yeah, there's

1978
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:57,000
Speaker 7: just this expectation that if we don't like something, other

1979
01:51:57,080 --> 01:52:00,799
Speaker 7: countries should do something about it. So in the Netherlands,

1980
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:06,599
Speaker 7: Moroccan migrants specifically are filified a lot and and Algerian migrants,

1981
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 7: and both countries have not been very collaborative with deportations,

1982
01:52:13,479 --> 01:52:18,000
Speaker 7: but like, why the hell should they support the forced

1983
01:52:18,760 --> 01:52:22,240
Speaker 7: return of their own citizens who don't want to go

1984
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:27,360
Speaker 7: back to their countries. Yeah, like there's no reason for

1985
01:52:27,479 --> 01:52:30,519
Speaker 7: them to do that, except if Europe is just abusing

1986
01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:33,840
Speaker 7: its power and forcing it these countries to do things

1987
01:52:33,880 --> 01:52:37,800
Speaker 7: that are yeah, not in their interest. I mean a

1988
01:52:37,880 --> 01:52:40,640
Speaker 7: lot of these border guards. I think Libya is an

1989
01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:44,439
Speaker 7: exception because they they actually make money out of the

1990
01:52:44,560 --> 01:52:47,360
Speaker 7: migrants in so many different ways. But if you look

1991
01:52:47,400 --> 01:52:50,479
Speaker 7: at Serbia or Bosnia, they are forced to control their borders,

1992
01:52:50,920 --> 01:52:54,439
Speaker 7: which is super expensive. And like, these are countries who

1993
01:52:54,920 --> 01:52:59,360
Speaker 7: have other issues to fix, Like, yeah, maybe they should

1994
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 7: make they want to focus on building up their country

1995
01:53:02,439 --> 01:53:05,960
Speaker 7: and improving living conditions, but instead the EU is just

1996
01:53:06,040 --> 01:53:10,360
Speaker 7: giving them money to yah to protect, to protect borders

1997
01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:12,839
Speaker 7: of people who aren't mainly just walking through their countries,

1998
01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:16,800
Speaker 7: Like that's not really a big problem for them. And yeah,

1999
01:53:16,880 --> 01:53:20,040
Speaker 7: it's very runic because Europe is like justifying its migration

2000
01:53:20,160 --> 01:53:24,000
Speaker 7: policies with this idea that every country has sovereignty over

2001
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:27,519
Speaker 7: who it allows access. That's like legally, that's like the

2002
01:53:27,600 --> 01:53:33,720
Speaker 7: fundament of migration deterrence, but it only claims that right

2003
01:53:33,800 --> 01:53:36,120
Speaker 7: for itself. So if other countries say, well, I don't

2004
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:38,680
Speaker 7: care if there is Serians walking through my country, like

2005
01:53:38,760 --> 01:53:41,920
Speaker 7: maybe they'll spend some money and they'll just leave anyway. Yeah,

2006
01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 7: other countries don't have the right. I think Belarus is

2007
01:53:45,520 --> 01:53:49,800
Speaker 7: an interesting example as well, because Belarus welcomed migrants and

2008
01:53:49,960 --> 01:53:53,240
Speaker 7: then brought them to the new border with Poland and

2009
01:53:53,320 --> 01:53:56,879
Speaker 7: Lithuania mainly, and Belarus has every right to give freest

2010
01:53:56,920 --> 01:53:57,400
Speaker 7: to people.

2011
01:53:57,920 --> 01:54:02,599
Speaker 10: You know, it's actually like, just like the namelet says

2012
01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:05,280
Speaker 10: the rights to give frees out to people, battle US

2013
01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:07,800
Speaker 10: says that right too, and then of course people can

2014
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:10,760
Speaker 10: also go to the border across the border if they

2015
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:12,000
Speaker 10: want and ask for asylum.

2016
01:54:12,479 --> 01:54:15,439
Speaker 7: So yeah, I just wanted to highlight the irony of how.

2017
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:22,080
Speaker 9: Incredibly one sided Europe is in how we can claim

2018
01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:24,879
Speaker 9: that we want to keep people out, but other countries

2019
01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:27,960
Speaker 9: are not allowed to have sovereign migration policies.

2020
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:31,479
Speaker 11: Yeah, we see it exactly the same in the US, right,

2021
01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:37,120
Speaker 11: like we're trying to outsource processing of migrants to quatemoleson ondoors.

2022
01:54:38,360 --> 01:54:41,840
Speaker 11: We are trying to I mean, we pay Mexico massive

2023
01:54:41,880 --> 01:54:45,040
Speaker 11: some to Moody to enforce aborder. Right like we saw

2024
01:54:45,560 --> 01:54:48,000
Speaker 11: it's funny. There are three gaps outside of a combat

2025
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:49,720
Speaker 11: that people who have listened to this podcast will be

2026
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:52,720
Speaker 11: very familiar with my reporting on. And we saw those

2027
01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:56,560
Speaker 11: gaps closed down not when people started coming so much,

2028
01:54:56,640 --> 01:55:02,400
Speaker 11: but once once legacy media outlets showed up. Then by December,

2029
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:05,880
Speaker 11: the US had a bilateral meeting with Mexico, and very

2030
01:55:05,920 --> 01:55:09,960
Speaker 11: soon thereafter, we saw Mexican National Guard sitting at those

2031
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:12,720
Speaker 11: gaps in the border wall. The US is border like

2032
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:16,200
Speaker 11: if people are leaving Mexico, it's not Mexico's problem. But

2033
01:55:16,520 --> 01:55:20,040
Speaker 11: we saw them with technicals and machine guns policing those

2034
01:55:20,080 --> 01:55:23,480
Speaker 11: gaps in the border. And the US gives a ton

2035
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:26,400
Speaker 11: of money to countries to enforce its border right to

2036
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:31,880
Speaker 11: prevent migration and get extremely The US has even taken

2037
01:55:31,960 --> 01:55:37,600
Speaker 11: actions to prosecute airlines that fly people north so that

2038
01:55:37,680 --> 01:55:40,440
Speaker 11: they can too. Yeah. Yeah, it's.

2039
01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:45,440
Speaker 7: Like insane, like half a million or something for like

2040
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:50,480
Speaker 7: bringing one migrant without of these Yeah. Yeah, two is externalization,

2041
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:53,960
Speaker 7: just as like bribing Libya to protect the border. It's

2042
01:55:54,000 --> 01:56:00,320
Speaker 7: also like actually forcing carriers, like forcing transport. Com needs

2043
01:56:00,400 --> 01:56:01,520
Speaker 7: to be the border guard.

2044
01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 11: Yeah, to ascertain whether you have a visa or not.

2045
01:56:05,520 --> 01:56:18,200
Speaker 11: Decide if you have the right to travel. Let's pick

2046
01:56:18,280 --> 01:56:19,920
Speaker 11: up with those examples you make, because I think it

2047
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:23,600
Speaker 11: is important for people to kind of have a human

2048
01:56:23,720 --> 01:56:25,160
Speaker 11: face or a human story.

2049
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:31,000
Speaker 5: Well, to preface this, like migrants are under EU law,

2050
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:33,760
Speaker 5: migrants are supposed to apply for aside in the first

2051
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:37,400
Speaker 5: EU country that they enter. This policy is likely the

2052
01:56:37,480 --> 01:56:41,560
Speaker 5: result of fear from more affluent European countries that the

2053
01:56:41,640 --> 01:56:46,200
Speaker 5: majority of refugees will travel to those countries. This means

2054
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 5: that the countries geographically closest to Africa and the Middle

2055
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:52,880
Speaker 5: East are the ones supposed to take in most refugees.

2056
01:56:53,320 --> 01:56:57,640
Speaker 5: Think of Spain, Greece, Italy, Bulgaria. They however, are not

2057
01:56:57,720 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 5: too afphusiastic at the prospect of taking in huge amounts

2058
01:57:01,400 --> 01:57:01,920
Speaker 5: of migrants.

2059
01:57:03,040 --> 01:57:04,480
Speaker 7: More are the migrants themselves.

2060
01:57:04,640 --> 01:57:09,480
Speaker 5: By the way, I can imagine that they're also a

2061
01:57:09,520 --> 01:57:13,520
Speaker 5: lot too keen to live in Bulgaria, especially after what

2062
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:19,400
Speaker 5: follows next, because this story happened at Turkish Bulgarian border.

2063
01:57:20,200 --> 01:57:25,440
Speaker 5: But I also personally it's just incredibly cruel that like

2064
01:57:25,680 --> 01:57:29,800
Speaker 5: the Netherlands and Germany and the Scandinavian countries are like,

2065
01:57:30,040 --> 01:57:33,040
Speaker 5: oh no, you should take you should take all those refugees,

2066
01:57:33,280 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 5: like we don't want them here.

2067
01:57:35,840 --> 01:57:38,440
Speaker 7: And I would say that's like where the outsourcing starts,

2068
01:57:38,680 --> 01:57:41,560
Speaker 7: Like that's you law. We have shance, so we have

2069
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:44,640
Speaker 7: like free travel within the u EU, but that comes

2070
01:57:44,680 --> 01:57:49,080
Speaker 7: with extremely violently guarding the outside of the EU. So

2071
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:52,120
Speaker 7: if you are a border country, you are only welcome

2072
01:57:52,120 --> 01:57:54,080
Speaker 7: if you can prove to us that you are cruel

2073
01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:57,960
Speaker 7: enough to discourage people from crossing this border. Because again,

2074
01:57:58,080 --> 01:58:01,560
Speaker 7: like Bulgaria doesn't really have that much interest in guarding

2075
01:58:01,640 --> 01:58:04,840
Speaker 7: the borders if people can just if they any way

2076
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:09,400
Speaker 7: want to go to Western European countries, right, so it's

2077
01:58:09,440 --> 01:58:12,840
Speaker 7: a way to again to I would say, the border

2078
01:58:13,240 --> 01:58:16,600
Speaker 7: externalization already starts from like the main countries of destination,

2079
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:21,280
Speaker 7: which is like France and Germany, and even Bulgaria would

2080
01:58:21,320 --> 01:58:24,560
Speaker 7: not have much interest in stopping migrants if there were

2081
01:58:24,640 --> 01:58:29,400
Speaker 7: not all of these rules to make them responsible.

2082
01:58:30,440 --> 01:58:33,040
Speaker 5: Exactly. But again, which is why I said, like the

2083
01:58:33,120 --> 01:58:38,560
Speaker 5: more affluent countries within you don't want that for reasons

2084
01:58:38,640 --> 01:58:41,480
Speaker 5: that I think anyone can think of at this point

2085
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:44,240
Speaker 5: of the story. Is where pushbacks come into play. This

2086
01:58:44,400 --> 01:58:47,200
Speaker 5: is a tactic used by the countries I just mentioned.

2087
01:58:47,800 --> 01:58:50,800
Speaker 5: It's a set of measures that force people back over

2088
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:55,839
Speaker 5: the border they crossed, often immediately after it. This practice

2089
01:58:55,920 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 5: is often a force for violence and does not take

2090
01:58:58,240 --> 01:59:01,480
Speaker 5: into account the circumstances of nagrants and denies them the

2091
01:59:01,560 --> 01:59:04,720
Speaker 5: opportunity to apply for asylum. This means that the EU

2092
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:09,400
Speaker 5: does pushback people that have very legitimate reasons to apply

2093
01:59:09,560 --> 01:59:14,080
Speaker 5: for asylum. Under the EU's own rules, I'm going to quote,

2094
01:59:14,640 --> 01:59:19,120
Speaker 5: pushbacks violate the prohibition of collective expulsion of asylum seekers

2095
01:59:19,200 --> 01:59:22,920
Speaker 5: in Protocol four of the European Convention on Human Rights

2096
01:59:23,400 --> 01:59:28,880
Speaker 5: and often violate the international law prohibiting on non refoulment. No,

2097
01:59:30,400 --> 01:59:35,680
Speaker 5: it's French, yeah, ah, okay, I was never good at French.

2098
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:37,960
Speaker 9: All right.

2099
01:59:40,400 --> 01:59:43,720
Speaker 5: It's a fundamental principle of international law that forbids a

2100
01:59:43,840 --> 01:59:47,440
Speaker 5: country receiving asylum seekers from returning them to a country

2101
01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:51,600
Speaker 5: in which they would be improbable danger of persecution based

2102
01:59:51,640 --> 01:59:55,800
Speaker 5: on race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group,

2103
01:59:56,400 --> 02:00:00,560
Speaker 5: or political opinion. That being said, I'm aware even like

2104
02:00:00,720 --> 02:00:04,880
Speaker 5: the Dutch government has sent like LGBTQI people back to

2105
02:00:05,040 --> 02:00:09,720
Speaker 5: countries where they could be like persecuted for that. So again,

2106
02:00:10,680 --> 02:00:14,200
Speaker 5: those rules seem to be very optional So what follows

2107
02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:20,440
Speaker 5: now is two examples of border practices that I think

2108
02:00:20,480 --> 02:00:25,720
Speaker 5: are particularly egregious. So on October third, twenty twenty two,

2109
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:30,840
Speaker 5: Abdullah Mohammed, aged nineteen, a Syrian refugee, attempted to cross

2110
02:00:31,040 --> 02:00:35,440
Speaker 5: the Bulgarian Turkish border. After being pushed back by border guards,

2111
02:00:35,720 --> 02:00:39,680
Speaker 5: they threw stones at the border about emphasize here at

2112
02:00:39,720 --> 02:00:43,480
Speaker 5: the border itself, not at the guards. After this, a

2113
02:00:43,560 --> 02:00:46,440
Speaker 5: shot rang and Abdullah fell to the ground with a

2114
02:00:47,200 --> 02:00:52,480
Speaker 5: bullet lodged one centimeter away from his heart. He survived

2115
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:56,600
Speaker 5: and was interviewed by Lighthouse Reports. He states that there

2116
02:00:56,680 --> 02:00:59,920
Speaker 5: wasn't intent to kill when he was shot. That's his belief.

2117
02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:05,800
Speaker 5: The bullet also pierced this hand, which is now partially paralyzed.

2118
02:01:06,480 --> 02:01:10,080
Speaker 5: There seems to be no justification or reason whatsoever for

2119
02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:13,320
Speaker 5: border guards to have shot, or to have shot with

2120
02:01:13,480 --> 02:01:16,600
Speaker 5: live ammunition. This was the first time that such an

2121
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:19,880
Speaker 5: incident was called on video. If you want, you can

2122
02:01:19,960 --> 02:01:23,600
Speaker 5: find it linked on lice Lighthouse Reports attached to the

2123
02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:28,920
Speaker 5: article about this incident. The video is not as bad

2124
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:32,680
Speaker 5: as you might think, but watch you at your own risk.

2125
02:01:33,760 --> 02:01:37,760
Speaker 5: As far as I'm aware, there have been similar rumors before,

2126
02:01:38,240 --> 02:01:40,960
Speaker 5: but this was the first instant that has entered like

2127
02:01:41,160 --> 02:01:44,600
Speaker 5: the public record, or the first time it was actually documented.

2128
02:01:46,280 --> 02:01:48,800
Speaker 5: Needless to say, no one should be shot for attempting

2129
02:01:48,840 --> 02:01:51,960
Speaker 5: to cross a border. I don't care about anyone's opinion

2130
02:01:52,200 --> 02:01:55,040
Speaker 5: or bad faith nuances. People have a right to apply

2131
02:01:55,160 --> 02:01:58,240
Speaker 5: for asylum, and as far as I'm concerned, this was

2132
02:01:58,360 --> 02:02:01,120
Speaker 5: a deliberate and calculated attempted murder.

2133
02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:03,640
Speaker 7: Yeah. I do think there have been quite a lot

2134
02:02:03,680 --> 02:02:07,720
Speaker 7: of videos of people being shot, and definitely people making

2135
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:11,640
Speaker 7: statements about it and just having the actual bullet in

2136
02:02:11,720 --> 02:02:15,040
Speaker 7: their body to prove that it happened. Yeah, it happened

2137
02:02:15,040 --> 02:02:18,480
Speaker 7: in Croatia, it happened in Greece. Greece is a habit

2138
02:02:18,520 --> 02:02:22,480
Speaker 7: of shooting at boats as well and in that way

2139
02:02:22,560 --> 02:02:27,400
Speaker 7: making people drown. Yeah. And of course, apart from the shootings,

2140
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:29,640
Speaker 7: which I would say on the European borders that they

2141
02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:34,440
Speaker 7: are still kind of rare. The yeah, the pushbacks and

2142
02:02:34,920 --> 02:02:39,080
Speaker 7: the violence and the torture is yeah, the evidence of

2143
02:02:39,160 --> 02:02:44,440
Speaker 7: that is like an enormous pile. There's when I was

2144
02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:47,440
Speaker 7: working in Bosnia, I think that was in twenty eighteen nineteen,

2145
02:02:48,400 --> 02:02:52,400
Speaker 7: there was no video footage of a pushback and there

2146
02:02:52,480 --> 02:02:54,480
Speaker 7: was a journalist who volunteered with us for a while

2147
02:02:54,640 --> 02:02:58,360
Speaker 7: and they were the first one to film it. But

2148
02:02:58,680 --> 02:03:02,120
Speaker 7: in the past years they're been like many many horrible

2149
02:03:02,200 --> 02:03:08,400
Speaker 7: videos of people being beaten up and actual torture.

2150
02:03:10,080 --> 02:03:12,560
Speaker 11: Yeah. Of course, in the US, under the pretense of

2151
02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:16,440
Speaker 11: protecting us all from the coronavirus, which still killed millions

2152
02:03:16,480 --> 02:03:19,200
Speaker 11: of people in this country, we have something called Title

2153
02:03:19,240 --> 02:03:23,960
Speaker 11: forty two, which allowed border patrol to quote unquote repatriate

2154
02:03:24,240 --> 02:03:27,920
Speaker 11: people to Mexico even if they weren't Mexican, and just

2155
02:03:28,320 --> 02:03:32,400
Speaker 11: drop them back in Mexico to include laterally transferring them,

2156
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:35,360
Speaker 11: which is a pseudonym for kind of trafficking them halfway

2157
02:03:35,360 --> 02:03:37,040
Speaker 11: across the country and then dumping them in a place

2158
02:03:37,080 --> 02:03:41,840
Speaker 11: where they have no connections, no money, and no way

2159
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:47,200
Speaker 11: of establishing themselves. Right, And this led to massively increased

2160
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:50,880
Speaker 11: a fatalities at the border because people were trying to

2161
02:03:50,920 --> 02:03:53,680
Speaker 11: avoid border patrol where they coming in and surrendering themselves

2162
02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:58,280
Speaker 11: for asylum as we see now, and massively increase encounters

2163
02:03:58,360 --> 02:04:02,160
Speaker 11: at the border. Encounters don't necessarily represent unique individuals, right,

2164
02:04:02,280 --> 02:04:04,560
Speaker 11: this is my I will beat this fucking drum until

2165
02:04:04,560 --> 02:04:08,640
Speaker 11: I die. But apparently our colleagues at New York Times

2166
02:04:08,680 --> 02:04:13,200
Speaker 11: haven't worked it out yet. Wall Street Journal, almost every NPR,

2167
02:04:13,600 --> 02:04:17,000
Speaker 11: every big outlet in the United States that likes to

2168
02:04:17,040 --> 02:04:19,760
Speaker 11: commission border reporters who don't live on the border will

2169
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:22,160
Speaker 11: tell you that that, like the number of migrants went up.

2170
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:25,880
Speaker 11: An encounter is an encounter. If someone crosses and then

2171
02:04:25,920 --> 02:04:28,160
Speaker 11: gets bounced into Mexico and then crosses again and does

2172
02:04:28,240 --> 02:04:30,720
Speaker 11: that five times, that's five encounters. It's the same person.

2173
02:04:31,880 --> 02:04:35,800
Speaker 11: BP doesn't doesn't keep records of unique individuals under Title

2174
02:04:35,840 --> 02:04:37,800
Speaker 11: forty two, or didn't keep under Title forty two. We

2175
02:04:37,840 --> 02:04:40,080
Speaker 11: don't know how many people, but we know that more

2176
02:04:40,120 --> 02:04:42,160
Speaker 11: people tried to cross, and we also know that every

2177
02:04:42,200 --> 02:04:45,280
Speaker 11: time you try to cross, you risk your life, and

2178
02:04:45,360 --> 02:04:47,240
Speaker 11: so we certainly know that more lives will put in

2179
02:04:47,360 --> 02:04:50,280
Speaker 11: danger because of this policy, because again, like turning someone

2180
02:04:50,360 --> 02:04:52,760
Speaker 11: back is not going to stop them, especially when you're

2181
02:04:52,800 --> 02:04:54,560
Speaker 11: dropping them in a country where they don't want to

2182
02:04:54,640 --> 02:04:57,120
Speaker 11: be and where they're not from. Like, the people aren't

2183
02:04:57,160 --> 02:05:00,200
Speaker 11: just going to be like, oh, okay, cool, I'll stay

2184
02:05:00,240 --> 02:05:03,440
Speaker 11: in Mexico like that. That has not historically been the case.

2185
02:05:04,960 --> 02:05:07,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, we had exactly the same kind of juggling with numbers.

2186
02:05:08,360 --> 02:05:11,400
Speaker 7: I remember people in Bosnia, some of them would get

2187
02:05:11,440 --> 02:05:15,640
Speaker 7: pushed back like forty or fifty times, and so they

2188
02:05:15,720 --> 02:05:19,680
Speaker 7: would be counted as individuals stops. Yes, indeed, so it

2189
02:05:19,720 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 7: would sound as if there was like, I don't know,

2190
02:05:22,280 --> 02:05:24,720
Speaker 7: tens of thousands, and I was like, it's really not

2191
02:05:24,840 --> 02:05:29,480
Speaker 7: that many, though, Yeah. Yeah, literally count the same person

2192
02:05:29,520 --> 02:05:30,480
Speaker 7: again and again and again.

2193
02:05:31,160 --> 02:05:31,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2194
02:05:31,720 --> 02:05:34,600
Speaker 7: And also I would like to say that like, yes,

2195
02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:37,120
Speaker 7: it is a border like the EO border countries, but

2196
02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:41,160
Speaker 7: it is also much deeper into the territory. So we

2197
02:05:41,400 --> 02:05:46,880
Speaker 7: externalize the border towards like Libya and Niger and way

2198
02:05:46,960 --> 02:05:50,000
Speaker 7: further even, but we also internalized the border, so we

2199
02:05:50,160 --> 02:05:52,040
Speaker 7: would find we would have people who had made it

2200
02:05:52,080 --> 02:05:57,080
Speaker 7: to Austria or Italy. They would get caught in Austria Italy,

2201
02:05:57,240 --> 02:06:00,720
Speaker 7: be pushed back to Slovenia, taken over by Slownia police,

2202
02:06:00,880 --> 02:06:03,520
Speaker 7: brought to the Croatian border, taken off by Creation police

2203
02:06:03,720 --> 02:06:07,000
Speaker 7: often in Croatia, get tortured and then be dumped on

2204
02:06:07,080 --> 02:06:09,520
Speaker 7: the Boston border, which would be the EU border as well.

2205
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:15,800
Speaker 7: So that's what they call chain pushbacks. And yeah, I yeah,

2206
02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:18,560
Speaker 7: so I worked in the Boston Hetzegovina, which is none you,

2207
02:06:19,760 --> 02:06:21,960
Speaker 7: so we would get the people after they had been

2208
02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:28,160
Speaker 7: pushed back. Yeah. The things that people have done, like

2209
02:06:28,560 --> 02:06:32,280
Speaker 7: water guards have done to migrants are yeah, I don't

2210
02:06:32,320 --> 02:06:34,760
Speaker 7: know if you actually want to use this footage, right,

2211
02:06:34,840 --> 02:06:39,160
Speaker 7: It's like it's really really gruesome. Like in Bosnia, they

2212
02:06:39,200 --> 02:06:42,760
Speaker 7: would they would be like snow form, like they have

2213
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:45,880
Speaker 7: very long and very cold winters. They would take away

2214
02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:48,400
Speaker 7: people's shoes and socks and like make them walk for

2215
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:50,960
Speaker 7: five hours on bare feet. So one of the main

2216
02:06:51,200 --> 02:06:55,920
Speaker 7: tasks of our volunteers or medical volunteers was amputating toes.

2217
02:06:57,120 --> 02:07:01,400
Speaker 7: People would Yeah, people would come back with broken bones,

2218
02:07:01,560 --> 02:07:06,480
Speaker 7: broken skulls. People would be sent back with just their underwear.

2219
02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:08,879
Speaker 7: That minus twenty degrees celsius.

2220
02:07:08,920 --> 02:07:10,600
Speaker 11: I don't know how much that is in the US,

2221
02:07:11,280 --> 02:07:14,600
Speaker 11: neither do way. It's I think they come together around

2222
02:07:14,640 --> 02:07:17,480
Speaker 11: minus twenty. It's extremely the cultret.

2223
02:07:17,160 --> 02:07:18,120
Speaker 7: Gets the more accurate.

2224
02:07:18,280 --> 02:07:18,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2225
02:07:18,880 --> 02:07:21,240
Speaker 7: So like at some point we start to call this

2226
02:07:21,400 --> 02:07:26,000
Speaker 7: could torture as a kind of specific yeah, tactic that

2227
02:07:26,520 --> 02:07:28,600
Speaker 7: mainly the Croatian border guards were using.

2228
02:07:29,520 --> 02:07:29,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2229
02:07:29,960 --> 02:07:37,240
Speaker 7: Also, yeah, and I also want to stress again that yes,

2230
02:07:37,320 --> 02:07:40,000
Speaker 7: it is the European border countries in the East and

2231
02:07:40,080 --> 02:07:43,480
Speaker 7: in the west and in the south. But when I

2232
02:07:43,640 --> 02:07:45,800
Speaker 7: was working in Bosnia, Croatia was not yet part of

2233
02:07:45,880 --> 02:07:51,600
Speaker 7: the Shanan Zone, and like politicians were pretty explicit about

2234
02:07:52,080 --> 02:07:55,760
Speaker 7: Croatia can only enter if they have solved their border problem,

2235
02:07:56,440 --> 02:07:59,480
Speaker 7: even though there was constantly proof of torture coming out.

2236
02:08:00,120 --> 02:08:04,480
Speaker 7: The same happened with Bulgaria and Romania. So these countries

2237
02:08:04,560 --> 02:08:09,040
Speaker 7: were very very much pressured by countries like the Netherlands

2238
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:12,320
Speaker 7: and Germany, who like you know, pretend not to have

2239
02:08:12,480 --> 02:08:16,400
Speaker 7: anything to do with these atrocities, but who were very

2240
02:08:16,640 --> 02:08:19,720
Speaker 7: very explicitly saying if you are not, if you don't

2241
02:08:19,760 --> 02:08:25,000
Speaker 7: get your borders in control, you cannot join the economic Yeah,

2242
02:08:25,600 --> 02:08:27,920
Speaker 7: you cannot have the open borders within the U.

2243
02:08:28,840 --> 02:08:32,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's so sad to see all these serenities. This

2244
02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:35,840
Speaker 11: is very depressing. My friends and I were helping someone

2245
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:38,680
Speaker 11: who had it, like the early onset of like like

2246
02:08:38,800 --> 02:08:40,960
Speaker 11: trench foot, Yeah, a couple of weeks ago.

2247
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:41,600
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2248
02:08:42,000 --> 02:08:44,160
Speaker 11: Yeah, we don't do it, like I guess as a

2249
02:08:44,200 --> 02:08:48,080
Speaker 11: policy as much as just by default. But in the

2250
02:08:48,200 --> 02:08:50,880
Speaker 11: mountains and then desert here in California when it rains,

2251
02:08:51,560 --> 02:08:53,440
Speaker 11: areas that are drive the rest of the year, turning

2252
02:08:53,480 --> 02:08:55,600
Speaker 11: to rivers and migrants have to cross. And we've also

2253
02:08:55,680 --> 02:08:58,600
Speaker 11: seen a large number of migrants drown this year in

2254
02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:02,480
Speaker 11: San Diego, and I more will have drowned if very

2255
02:09:02,600 --> 02:09:05,480
Speaker 11: brave people hadn't risk their own lives rescuing them. Not

2256
02:09:05,680 --> 02:09:08,720
Speaker 11: people who were working for the government, just individuals who cared.

2257
02:09:09,400 --> 02:09:14,040
Speaker 11: We've also seen a young man from Jamaica recently passed away.

2258
02:09:14,800 --> 02:09:18,800
Speaker 11: This was in early probably early for some February and March.

2259
02:09:18,840 --> 02:09:22,240
Speaker 11: From February March. He was on a migrant trail. I

2260
02:09:22,360 --> 02:09:27,640
Speaker 11: know exactly where, about a few hundred yards actually from

2261
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:34,280
Speaker 11: where my friends have left warm clothes, hand warmers, jackets, food, water,

2262
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:37,000
Speaker 11: But he wasn't able to make it that far and

2263
02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:40,360
Speaker 11: for whatever reason, you know, like one death of a

2264
02:09:40,440 --> 02:09:43,200
Speaker 11: tragedy and a million statistic or whatever. But that really

2265
02:09:43,240 --> 02:09:45,080
Speaker 11: impacted me. He was actually on the other side of

2266
02:09:45,120 --> 02:09:46,760
Speaker 11: the border when he died, but like he could have

2267
02:09:46,800 --> 02:09:49,680
Speaker 11: thrown a stone into the US and it's not a

2268
02:09:49,800 --> 02:09:52,960
Speaker 11: fence to border there. But yet we have chosen a

2269
02:09:53,040 --> 02:09:56,400
Speaker 11: policy which made that young man die of hypothermia by

2270
02:09:56,480 --> 02:10:01,360
Speaker 11: himself on the side of a mountain because for some reason,

2271
02:10:01,640 --> 02:10:05,120
Speaker 11: that's what we've decided or our government has decided it's

2272
02:10:05,160 --> 02:10:07,040
Speaker 11: better than having him come here and be able to

2273
02:10:07,400 --> 02:10:09,640
Speaker 11: make his case and live with us and get a

2274
02:10:09,760 --> 02:10:12,760
Speaker 11: job or what have you. And yeah, that was just

2275
02:10:12,840 --> 02:10:15,360
Speaker 11: a particularly heartbreaking one for me because I knew that,

2276
02:10:15,640 --> 02:10:19,880
Speaker 11: like he was five minutes walk away, ten minutes walk

2277
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:25,080
Speaker 11: away from potentially being okay, And like that that's why

2278
02:10:25,640 --> 02:10:27,280
Speaker 11: my friends and I like to go out and leave

2279
02:10:27,280 --> 02:10:31,440
Speaker 11: stuff for people. But it shouldn't be a group of

2280
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:36,680
Speaker 11: anarchists and migrant activists and people of faith like hiking

2281
02:10:36,760 --> 02:10:39,440
Speaker 11: into the desert every weekend with backpacks full of water

2282
02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:43,280
Speaker 11: and food and warm clothes. That shouldn't be what prevents

2283
02:10:43,320 --> 02:10:44,640
Speaker 11: people from dying coming here.

2284
02:10:45,320 --> 02:10:47,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's a kind of cruelty in that, even like

2285
02:10:48,800 --> 02:10:52,280
Speaker 7: it is amazing to help people to be part of

2286
02:10:52,720 --> 02:10:56,000
Speaker 7: a group of people who commit themselves to yeah, to

2287
02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:59,520
Speaker 7: resist these incredibly violent borders and to support people who

2288
02:10:59,600 --> 02:11:02,960
Speaker 7: decide to across them. But at the same time, it

2289
02:11:03,120 --> 02:11:08,600
Speaker 7: is just so problematic that someone's life, like access to

2290
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:11,280
Speaker 7: food or healthcare, depends on whether or not there are

2291
02:11:11,360 --> 02:11:16,280
Speaker 7: some crazy volunteers willing to do that. So like it

2292
02:11:16,320 --> 02:11:20,840
Speaker 7: shouldn't be like our you know, are like, yeah, like

2293
02:11:20,960 --> 02:11:23,240
Speaker 7: I don't want to have that power over someone's life,

2294
02:11:23,320 --> 02:11:25,200
Speaker 7: and I think no one should have that power over

2295
02:11:25,280 --> 02:11:30,120
Speaker 7: someone's life. But this system where basically migrants' lives are disposable,

2296
02:11:31,200 --> 02:11:35,720
Speaker 7: also mean that it's like optional to offer super basic

2297
02:11:35,840 --> 02:11:37,640
Speaker 7: things that can save these lives.

2298
02:11:38,520 --> 02:11:39,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, very much, sir.

2299
02:11:41,240 --> 02:11:43,560
Speaker 5: Are you ready for the second depressing story?

2300
02:11:43,840 --> 02:11:45,560
Speaker 11: Yeah, let's let's get the second to break.

2301
02:11:46,120 --> 02:11:47,280
Speaker 5: Let's hit rock bottom.

2302
02:11:47,760 --> 02:11:48,600
Speaker 11: Yeah yeah, yeah.

2303
02:11:50,080 --> 02:11:54,040
Speaker 5: So I'm sure you've you've heard this story before, but

2304
02:11:54,240 --> 02:11:58,400
Speaker 5: still I think it's very much worth repeating. So on

2305
02:11:58,560 --> 02:12:03,200
Speaker 5: June fourteenth, twenty twenty three, the Adriana, a ship on

2306
02:12:03,320 --> 02:12:09,000
Speaker 5: its way degrees, capsized and subsequently sank. The boat allegedly

2307
02:12:09,080 --> 02:12:12,680
Speaker 5: had the capacity for about four hundred people, but carried

2308
02:12:12,720 --> 02:12:16,720
Speaker 5: around seven hundred and fifty. Of all those lives, one

2309
02:12:16,800 --> 02:12:21,560
Speaker 5: hundred and four were saved, eight two were confirmed deaths,

2310
02:12:21,960 --> 02:12:26,560
Speaker 5: and up to four five hundreds are missing and presumed death,

2311
02:12:27,280 --> 02:12:30,760
Speaker 5: the majority of which are women and children. I'll refer

2312
02:12:30,880 --> 02:12:33,640
Speaker 5: back to the Lighthouse Reports, who did a reconstruction of

2313
02:12:33,720 --> 02:12:38,600
Speaker 5: the incident which makes this even worse than it already is.

2314
02:12:39,520 --> 02:12:43,960
Speaker 5: Transcriptions and witness statements obtained by Lighthouse Reports, the Oshpiego

2315
02:12:44,520 --> 02:12:53,520
Speaker 5: Monitors iiraj Lpos report is United and the Times strongly

2316
02:12:53,600 --> 02:12:56,160
Speaker 5: suggests that the Greek coast Guard attempted to conceal their

2317
02:12:56,200 --> 02:12:59,680
Speaker 5: own involvement in this stragedy. Nine survivors were asked to

2318
02:12:59,720 --> 02:13:03,280
Speaker 5: make statements, none of which appeared to blame the coast guard.

2319
02:13:04,360 --> 02:13:08,360
Speaker 5: Different suggestions were given for the capsizing, blaming it on

2320
02:13:08,440 --> 02:13:11,120
Speaker 5: the edge of the ship or the lack of life jackets.

2321
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:16,880
Speaker 5: Four of these statements contained near identical phrasing. It was

2322
02:13:17,000 --> 02:13:19,920
Speaker 5: later discovered that one of the translators was a coast

2323
02:13:19,920 --> 02:13:24,400
Speaker 5: guard himself. There were other translators, all of which were

2324
02:13:24,760 --> 02:13:29,120
Speaker 5: sworn in on that very day later in Greek courts.

2325
02:13:29,400 --> 02:13:32,400
Speaker 5: Six of those nine stated that the coast guard did

2326
02:13:32,560 --> 02:13:35,640
Speaker 5: in fact tow the boat before it went down. Two

2327
02:13:35,720 --> 02:13:39,280
Speaker 5: survivors tot Lighthouse reports that certain parts of their testimony

2328
02:13:39,400 --> 02:13:43,120
Speaker 5: was omitted in the transcription. To clarify that a bit

2329
02:13:43,960 --> 02:13:47,160
Speaker 5: because of what I said earlier that migrants have are

2330
02:13:47,240 --> 02:13:50,880
Speaker 5: obligated to apply for asylum in the country in which

2331
02:13:50,920 --> 02:13:55,400
Speaker 5: they arrive. It's become a habit of like coast Guard

2332
02:13:55,600 --> 02:14:01,400
Speaker 5: and frontect to attrag them to certain areas of of

2333
02:14:01,560 --> 02:14:05,280
Speaker 5: water that are part of for example, Italy or Greece.

2334
02:14:07,040 --> 02:14:11,520
Speaker 5: This particular one boat may have been an attempt to

2335
02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:15,320
Speaker 5: drag the boat to Italian waters so the Greeks didn't

2336
02:14:15,360 --> 02:14:19,800
Speaker 5: have to take them in. So, to quote the report

2337
02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:24,640
Speaker 5: from Lighthouse sixteen out of the seventeen survivors we spoke

2338
02:14:24,680 --> 02:14:26,960
Speaker 5: to set the coast guard attached the rope to the

2339
02:14:27,080 --> 02:14:30,320
Speaker 5: vessel and tried to tow it shortly before it capsized.

2340
02:14:30,960 --> 02:14:33,520
Speaker 5: Four also claimed that the coast guard was attempting to

2341
02:14:33,600 --> 02:14:36,920
Speaker 5: tow the boat to Italian waters, while four reported that

2342
02:14:37,000 --> 02:14:40,560
Speaker 5: the coast guard caused more depths by circling around the

2343
02:14:40,640 --> 02:14:44,040
Speaker 5: boat after it capsized, making waves that caused the boat's

2344
02:14:44,080 --> 02:14:48,839
Speaker 5: carcass to sink. End quote not great badtime stories.

2345
02:14:49,480 --> 02:14:52,200
Speaker 11: If you ask me, yeah, things.

2346
02:14:55,600 --> 02:14:59,320
Speaker 4: There there's just no words like yeah, I.

2347
02:14:59,640 --> 02:15:03,040
Speaker 11: Think this like I don't think anyone should be okay

2348
02:15:03,160 --> 02:15:16,960
Speaker 11: with it. Perhaps I think we're going to talk again

2349
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:19,760
Speaker 11: about how people can oppose this, and how people can

2350
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:24,200
Speaker 11: try their best to to a change the system and

2351
02:15:24,320 --> 02:15:27,200
Speaker 11: be do what they can, you know, while we're stuck

2352
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:30,200
Speaker 11: in this terrible place to make things more survivable and

2353
02:15:30,320 --> 02:15:33,560
Speaker 11: less cruel. So perhaps we can finish up here with

2354
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:36,480
Speaker 11: you guys, plugging anything you want to. If there are

2355
02:15:36,640 --> 02:15:38,960
Speaker 11: orgs or social media where people can follow both of

2356
02:15:39,080 --> 02:15:42,080
Speaker 11: your work, then I'd love to hear about them.

2357
02:15:43,360 --> 02:15:47,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, you can follow us on migrates. That's the end.

2358
02:15:48,000 --> 02:15:52,600
Speaker 7: I think it's like for English and migrator is I

2359
02:15:52,800 --> 02:15:57,360
Speaker 7: G R E A C. Yeah, the system is super fucked.

2360
02:16:00,120 --> 02:16:01,240
Speaker 7: Are SIP super fucked?

2361
02:16:01,400 --> 02:16:01,680
Speaker 5: It is?

2362
02:16:02,520 --> 02:16:07,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's really treating human beings as disposable and human

2363
02:16:07,640 --> 02:16:11,920
Speaker 7: a monment. Life has absolutely no value. But I also

2364
02:16:12,000 --> 02:16:14,080
Speaker 7: just wanted to say that I think a lot of

2365
02:16:14,240 --> 02:16:16,840
Speaker 7: migrants who cross borders they are aware of the risks.

2366
02:16:17,640 --> 02:16:20,200
Speaker 7: But I think it's also important to say that it

2367
02:16:20,320 --> 02:16:22,720
Speaker 7: isn't it's a kind of resistance. It is a kind

2368
02:16:22,760 --> 02:16:28,200
Speaker 7: of We started that episode with talking about passport privilege

2369
02:16:28,440 --> 02:16:33,840
Speaker 7: and the lottery of birth, and I think we should

2370
02:16:33,879 --> 02:16:36,400
Speaker 7: not only look at like the bad border guards and

2371
02:16:36,480 --> 02:16:38,800
Speaker 7: the good people helping or something, but I think we

2372
02:16:38,840 --> 02:16:41,480
Speaker 7: should also acknowledge that the people crossing the borders are

2373
02:16:42,760 --> 02:16:47,000
Speaker 7: doing like taking unbelievable risk, often also to help their

2374
02:16:47,080 --> 02:16:50,720
Speaker 7: families or their friends. Yeah, and I think crossing a

2375
02:16:50,800 --> 02:16:55,400
Speaker 7: border without permission is a kind of resistance. And I

2376
02:16:55,560 --> 02:17:00,520
Speaker 7: think we as people who yeah, do direct support or

2377
02:17:00,600 --> 02:17:03,960
Speaker 7: direct aid. We are I mean for me, it's also

2378
02:17:04,040 --> 02:17:07,240
Speaker 7: part of the resistance, is like helping people cross the border.

2379
02:17:07,879 --> 02:17:11,199
Speaker 7: I don't mind if yeah, people that want to accuse

2380
02:17:11,280 --> 02:17:13,600
Speaker 7: me of being a smaller or something, or like aiding

2381
02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:16,240
Speaker 7: illegal border crossings. Like the whole point is that people

2382
02:17:16,240 --> 02:17:17,640
Speaker 7: should be able to cross that border.

2383
02:17:18,520 --> 02:17:18,760
Speaker 12: Yeah.

2384
02:17:19,320 --> 02:17:21,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think that's a really good Someone recently accused

2385
02:17:21,760 --> 02:17:24,560
Speaker 11: us of in Cucumber that said that people people come

2386
02:17:24,640 --> 02:17:27,760
Speaker 11: to a cumber because we feed them, and like it's

2387
02:17:27,920 --> 02:17:31,680
Speaker 11: fucking ludicrous, Like you didn't fucking come from a guinea

2388
02:17:32,200 --> 02:17:35,320
Speaker 11: because I'm going to give you a peanut butter sandwich on.

2389
02:17:35,440 --> 02:17:37,760
Speaker 7: Some breadt like the best food.

2390
02:17:37,959 --> 02:17:39,560
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, like it is.

2391
02:17:39,920 --> 02:17:41,280
Speaker 1: It is not the best.

2392
02:17:42,200 --> 02:17:44,400
Speaker 11: It's the best we can do, like you know, less

2393
02:17:44,440 --> 02:17:47,280
Speaker 11: than an other person or what have you. But like no,

2394
02:17:47,560 --> 02:17:49,440
Speaker 11: like but I guess. But I am doing it because

2395
02:17:49,440 --> 02:17:52,120
Speaker 11: I believe that person should be able to and not

2396
02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:55,480
Speaker 11: just because they're in those dire circumstances, but because I

2397
02:17:55,879 --> 02:17:58,560
Speaker 11: fundamentally support they're right, Like I want them to be

2398
02:17:58,680 --> 02:18:02,480
Speaker 11: my neighbor. Yeah, I'm okay with that, and that's why

2399
02:18:02,480 --> 02:18:02,960
Speaker 11: I'm doing it.

2400
02:18:04,280 --> 02:18:05,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, I.

2401
02:18:06,879 --> 02:18:09,360
Speaker 5: Think we should all keep in mind how many of

2402
02:18:09,480 --> 02:18:16,040
Speaker 5: our friends, family, or other loved ones have moved at

2403
02:18:16,120 --> 02:18:19,679
Speaker 5: some point in their lives for a job or opportunities

2404
02:18:19,959 --> 02:18:24,320
Speaker 5: or love or whatever. That the essence of like human

2405
02:18:24,400 --> 02:18:26,720
Speaker 5: movement is the same, right right there?

2406
02:18:26,840 --> 02:18:31,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it is our politicians who choose

2407
02:18:31,160 --> 02:18:33,760
Speaker 7: that this movement is a problem, that the movement of

2408
02:18:33,840 --> 02:18:39,240
Speaker 7: these people specifically is a threat or danger. Whereas I think, like, yeah,

2409
02:18:39,680 --> 02:18:43,240
Speaker 7: if you talk about like racism or systemic racism, the questions,

2410
02:18:43,240 --> 02:18:44,880
Speaker 7: I was like, yeah, but what is the system? Then?

2411
02:18:45,320 --> 02:18:49,640
Speaker 7: This is the system, the visa policies, the actual border.

2412
02:18:50,120 --> 02:18:52,840
Speaker 7: This is what is keeping people like is trying to

2413
02:18:52,959 --> 02:18:56,840
Speaker 7: keep people in exploitable conditions in the global South, is

2414
02:18:57,480 --> 02:19:02,080
Speaker 7: doing incredible cruelties to them just for political gain. Is

2415
02:19:02,200 --> 02:19:04,920
Speaker 7: exploiting people who do make it, but who are undocumented

2416
02:19:05,160 --> 02:19:09,080
Speaker 7: or on fragile residence status and are still exploited and

2417
02:19:09,800 --> 02:19:12,800
Speaker 7: deprived of basic rights even if they do arrive to

2418
02:19:12,879 --> 02:19:16,880
Speaker 7: their country of destination. Like this system is designed to

2419
02:19:17,040 --> 02:19:20,840
Speaker 7: create an underclass of people that is easily exploitable. There

2420
02:19:20,879 --> 02:19:23,879
Speaker 7: are companies who are profiting from this. There is absolutely

2421
02:19:23,920 --> 02:19:27,040
Speaker 7: no intention to stop migration, but there is definitely an

2422
02:19:27,120 --> 02:19:34,520
Speaker 7: intention to marginalize and segregate migrants and yeah, and just

2423
02:19:35,280 --> 02:19:35,960
Speaker 7: profit of it.

2424
02:19:36,920 --> 02:19:37,120
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2425
02:19:38,440 --> 02:19:42,680
Speaker 5: And meanwhile, we do the absolute bare minimum to provide

2426
02:19:42,720 --> 02:19:46,160
Speaker 5: aids to those countries to make the living conditions there better.

2427
02:19:47,000 --> 02:19:50,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, these borders are playing a role and keeping people

2428
02:19:50,360 --> 02:19:53,360
Speaker 7: exploitable there and making it possible to make them work

2429
02:19:53,440 --> 02:19:58,440
Speaker 7: for incredibly low wages and horrible labor conditions. Like these

2430
02:19:58,480 --> 02:20:01,720
Speaker 7: borders are forcing them into the in the those conditions.

2431
02:20:03,440 --> 02:20:08,960
Speaker 5: I think the mandatory international Development aid that countries should

2432
02:20:09,000 --> 02:20:13,960
Speaker 5: pay is like zero points zero zero seven percent or

2433
02:20:14,000 --> 02:20:17,600
Speaker 5: something of the GDP, and the majority of like Western

2434
02:20:17,680 --> 02:20:23,880
Speaker 5: countries are not doing that even that. So it's very

2435
02:20:23,959 --> 02:20:27,320
Speaker 5: much like the problem is that they're coming here, not

2436
02:20:27,440 --> 02:20:30,320
Speaker 5: that the conditions there are ship and war keeping them shits.

2437
02:20:31,400 --> 02:20:34,840
Speaker 5: Yeah great, I'm a bit bumped now.

2438
02:20:35,760 --> 02:20:35,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2439
02:20:36,320 --> 02:20:38,240
Speaker 11: Sorry, we've left you all saide. We will come back

2440
02:20:38,320 --> 02:20:41,520
Speaker 11: with Rose again and make to talk about ways to

2441
02:20:41,560 --> 02:20:43,280
Speaker 11: make it better. Is there anything you wanted to plug,

2442
02:20:43,360 --> 02:20:46,560
Speaker 11: make anything you want people to give the time money

2443
02:20:46,640 --> 02:20:47,680
Speaker 11: to follow on the internet.

2444
02:20:49,000 --> 02:20:51,440
Speaker 5: I just want to give a shout out to like

2445
02:20:51,640 --> 02:20:57,400
Speaker 5: organizations such as migrates, but also the abolished Frontext campaign

2446
02:20:58,040 --> 02:21:02,000
Speaker 5: and United Against refugee DEFs, and it would urge anyone

2447
02:21:02,120 --> 02:21:08,200
Speaker 5: to who feels compassionate to help out. There are so

2448
02:21:08,280 --> 02:21:10,840
Speaker 5: many ways you can help out, even if you don't

2449
02:21:10,879 --> 02:21:15,720
Speaker 5: know it yet, it is sorely needed. Like wherever you are,

2450
02:21:16,879 --> 02:21:18,520
Speaker 5: whoever you are, you can help out.

2451
02:21:24,040 --> 02:21:24,120
Speaker 7: Hi.

2452
02:21:24,160 --> 02:21:26,760
Speaker 11: Everyone, it's me James, and I just wanted to read

2453
02:21:26,800 --> 02:21:28,480
Speaker 11: you this today. We're going to put it in our

2454
02:21:28,520 --> 02:21:31,400
Speaker 11: episode this week because it's a cause that's important to us,

2455
02:21:31,800 --> 02:21:33,800
Speaker 11: and so we thought it would be something that might

2456
02:21:33,840 --> 02:21:35,960
Speaker 11: be important to you too as well. On the tenth

2457
02:21:36,000 --> 02:21:39,320
Speaker 11: of June twenty twenty four, Leonard Peltier, an enrolled member

2458
02:21:39,320 --> 02:21:42,080
Speaker 11: of the Turtle Band of Chippewa of Lakota and Ajibwei

2459
02:21:42,160 --> 02:21:45,520
Speaker 11: Ancestry and the longest serving political prisoner in the United States,

2460
02:21:45,879 --> 02:21:48,400
Speaker 11: will be appearing before the US Parole Commission for the

2461
02:21:48,480 --> 02:21:51,800
Speaker 11: first time since two thousand and nine. He faces staunch

2462
02:21:51,800 --> 02:21:55,959
Speaker 11: opposition from the FBI and other law enforcement agencies due

2463
02:21:56,000 --> 02:21:59,080
Speaker 11: to having allegedly killed two FBI agents in a firefight

2464
02:21:59,280 --> 02:22:02,440
Speaker 11: on the twenty six of June nineteen seventy five, after

2465
02:22:02,520 --> 02:22:06,520
Speaker 11: the agents appeared on reservation land to execute a pretextural warrant.

2466
02:22:07,440 --> 02:22:10,640
Speaker 11: The initial firefight occurred during the quote reign of terror

2467
02:22:10,840 --> 02:22:13,160
Speaker 11: on Pine Ridge in the wake of the occupation of

2468
02:22:13,200 --> 02:22:16,240
Speaker 11: Wounded Kney, a time of extreme violence when federal law

2469
02:22:16,360 --> 02:22:19,920
Speaker 11: enforcement installed a puppet tribal chair and was arming vigilantes

2470
02:22:20,000 --> 02:22:24,440
Speaker 11: who targeted Indigenous traditionalists. Every since leading up to these events,

2471
02:22:24,600 --> 02:22:29,560
Speaker 11: as well as subsequent investigation and mister Peltier's extradition, trial, conviction,

2472
02:22:29,879 --> 02:22:33,280
Speaker 11: and sentencing, were characterized by gross misconduct on the part

2473
02:22:33,320 --> 02:22:38,040
Speaker 11: of law enforcement, the prosecution, and the courts. Mister Peltier's

2474
02:22:38,040 --> 02:22:40,760
Speaker 11: co defendants were separately tried and acquitted on grounds of

2475
02:22:40,800 --> 02:22:44,840
Speaker 11: self defense. Mister Peltier was railroaded, and his case is

2476
02:22:44,920 --> 02:22:48,200
Speaker 11: tainted by discrimination at every level, ranging from the withholding

2477
02:22:48,240 --> 02:22:51,320
Speaker 11: of exculpatory evidence to the torture and coercion of extradition

2478
02:22:51,400 --> 02:22:54,560
Speaker 11: and trial witnesses, and from the refusal of the judge

2479
02:22:54,560 --> 02:22:58,640
Speaker 11: to dismiss and vowedly racist Dura to the apologetic gymnastics

2480
02:22:58,720 --> 02:23:00,880
Speaker 11: of the courts affirming his convin in the face of

2481
02:23:00,959 --> 02:23:05,280
Speaker 11: meritorious legal challenges at admitted evidence about rageous government misdeeds.

2482
02:23:06,120 --> 02:23:08,920
Speaker 11: Mister Peltier has been in prison for more than forty

2483
02:23:08,959 --> 02:23:13,119
Speaker 11: eight years, and he's almost eighty years old. He suffers

2484
02:23:13,120 --> 02:23:16,600
Speaker 11: from chronic and potentially lethal conditions for which he receives

2485
02:23:16,680 --> 02:23:20,680
Speaker 11: insufficient and substandard medical care. If you want to take

2486
02:23:20,720 --> 02:23:24,560
Speaker 11: action to hashtag free Lenard Peltier, you can call the

2487
02:23:24,680 --> 02:23:28,800
Speaker 11: US Parole Commission at two zero two three four six

2488
02:23:29,400 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 11: seven zero zero zero, And if you'd like to find

2489
02:23:33,040 --> 02:23:34,920
Speaker 11: more information on how to support, you can go to

2490
02:23:35,000 --> 02:23:38,400
Speaker 11: this r L it's h t t P colon slash

2491
02:23:38,440 --> 02:23:45,640
Speaker 11: slash n d n C dot c C slash free

2492
02:23:46,360 --> 02:23:50,880
Speaker 11: Leonard Peltier. That's fr e E L e O n

2493
02:23:51,040 --> 02:23:54,560
Speaker 11: A R d P E L t I E R,

2494
02:23:55,160 --> 02:23:57,480
Speaker 11: or you can follow n d N collective on social

2495
02:23:57,560 --> 02:24:00,760
Speaker 11: media for more ways to support him. More information on

2496
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:03,879
Speaker 11: Daniel Peltier. Listen to Margaret's podcast on the Lakota Nation.

2497
02:24:04,520 --> 02:24:06,640
Speaker 11: I read in the Spirit of the Crazy Horse by

2498
02:24:06,720 --> 02:24:07,600
Speaker 11: Peter Matthewson.

2499
02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:25,400
Speaker 1: Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about

2500
02:24:25,560 --> 02:24:28,680
Speaker 1: things falling apart, and today, the thing that's fallen apart

2501
02:24:29,280 --> 02:24:33,840
Speaker 1: is our shared concept of reality, our ability to exists

2502
02:24:33,920 --> 02:24:37,800
Speaker 1: as a population within the same world, or at least

2503
02:24:37,920 --> 02:24:41,640
Speaker 1: versions of the same world that even slightly interact with

2504
02:24:41,760 --> 02:24:44,160
Speaker 1: each other. And my guest for this episode about the

2505
02:24:44,200 --> 02:24:48,680
Speaker 1: breaking of reality. Garrison, Davis, Garrison, what do you know

2506
02:24:48,920 --> 02:24:51,000
Speaker 1: about the USS Eisenhower.

2507
02:24:52,560 --> 02:24:54,280
Speaker 4: Is that is that from Star Trek?

2508
02:24:54,560 --> 02:24:57,160
Speaker 1: Is that a Yeah, that's the ship that they all

2509
02:24:57,240 --> 02:24:59,800
Speaker 1: fly around and in Star Trek, the many voyages of

2510
02:24:59,840 --> 02:25:06,760
Speaker 1: the Starship Eisenhower. It's continually miss such a different show

2511
02:25:07,280 --> 02:25:12,320
Speaker 1: every episode. They're just fucking with Guatemala like every single episode,

2512
02:25:13,200 --> 02:25:16,120
Speaker 1: but cards just finding another way to overthrow the government

2513
02:25:16,160 --> 02:25:16,879
Speaker 1: of Guatemala.

2514
02:25:19,440 --> 02:25:19,640
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2515
02:25:19,720 --> 02:25:22,359
Speaker 4: No, that's like alternate universe evil Gene Roddenberry.

2516
02:25:22,600 --> 02:25:25,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, if Gene Roddenberry had been like a

2517
02:25:25,959 --> 02:25:31,640
Speaker 1: hardcore conservative. Yeah, speaking of hardcore conservatives, we are talking

2518
02:25:31,720 --> 02:25:35,200
Speaker 1: again about alternate realities, and the USS Eisenhower is relevant

2519
02:25:35,200 --> 02:25:37,760
Speaker 1: to that because it's kind of been the subject of

2520
02:25:37,879 --> 02:25:41,920
Speaker 1: a reality fracture recently, just talking in terms of like

2521
02:25:42,040 --> 02:25:45,120
Speaker 1: things that are actually true. The USS Eisenhower is a

2522
02:25:45,240 --> 02:25:47,959
Speaker 1: very big aircraft carrier. It's got something like five thousand

2523
02:25:48,040 --> 02:25:51,520
Speaker 1: people and its crew. It's nuclear powered. It can stay

2524
02:25:51,560 --> 02:25:54,080
Speaker 1: i think up to like twenty five years. Potentially, it

2525
02:25:54,160 --> 02:25:57,240
Speaker 1: could stay in the field without needing to like refuel

2526
02:25:57,360 --> 02:25:58,080
Speaker 1: or anything like that.

2527
02:25:58,879 --> 02:25:59,440
Speaker 4: That's wild.

2528
02:25:59,760 --> 02:26:03,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Aircraft carriers are insane things, and it is

2529
02:26:03,280 --> 02:26:05,960
Speaker 1: the center of an Air Force carrier group, which is

2530
02:26:06,000 --> 02:26:07,400
Speaker 1: a group of I think there's something like ten or

2531
02:26:07,440 --> 02:26:10,000
Speaker 1: eleven other ships in it, a combination of like you've

2532
02:26:10,000 --> 02:26:13,000
Speaker 1: got like destroyers, these little missile ships. I think there's

2533
02:26:13,040 --> 02:26:16,000
Speaker 1: some submarines. Probably an ice cream ship in there somewhere.

2534
02:26:16,040 --> 02:26:18,800
Speaker 1: That's kind of like a key thing the US military does. Anyway,

2535
02:26:19,200 --> 02:26:21,640
Speaker 1: the Eisenhower is the ship that's out in the Gulf

2536
02:26:21,680 --> 02:26:25,160
Speaker 1: of Aiden right now throwing down with the Hoothys. And

2537
02:26:25,600 --> 02:26:30,080
Speaker 1: on the thirty first of last month, there was a

2538
02:26:30,360 --> 02:26:34,760
Speaker 1: series of attacks launched by the Eisenhower along with some

2539
02:26:34,959 --> 02:26:39,680
Speaker 1: of our British allies, striking thirteen Hoothy targets at various

2540
02:26:39,760 --> 02:26:42,520
Speaker 1: locations in Yemen. This was in response to a number

2541
02:26:42,520 --> 02:26:45,600
Speaker 1: of attacks that the Hoothies had launched recently on shipping

2542
02:26:45,920 --> 02:26:48,080
Speaker 1: in the region, including I think they hit a Greek

2543
02:26:48,120 --> 02:26:51,120
Speaker 1: ship a couple of times. The strikes came also a

2544
02:26:51,240 --> 02:26:53,879
Speaker 1: day after the Hoothy's shot down an m Q nine

2545
02:26:54,040 --> 02:26:57,240
Speaker 1: Reaper drone, which was the third downing of a Reaper

2546
02:26:57,320 --> 02:27:00,279
Speaker 1: drone in May. So the Hoothies have been dropping reefs

2547
02:27:00,520 --> 02:27:03,160
Speaker 1: pretty regularly. So anyway, all of this led to a

2548
02:27:03,240 --> 02:27:06,200
Speaker 1: massive series of strikes that were kind of you know,

2549
02:27:06,480 --> 02:27:11,440
Speaker 1: launched from the Eisenhower on Houthy targets. Houthy rebels said

2550
02:27:11,480 --> 02:27:13,720
Speaker 1: that the air strikes killed at least sixteen people and

2551
02:27:13,760 --> 02:27:16,280
Speaker 1: wounded thirty five others. I think that death toll has

2552
02:27:16,440 --> 02:27:19,360
Speaker 1: risen since the article, the Washington Post article I'm looking

2553
02:27:19,400 --> 02:27:21,080
Speaker 1: at now, and that you know, we're going to be

2554
02:27:21,160 --> 02:27:23,959
Speaker 1: talking about things that are credible and not credible. If

2555
02:27:24,000 --> 02:27:26,920
Speaker 1: the Hoothies say, given the attacks launched, that death toll

2556
02:27:26,959 --> 02:27:29,840
Speaker 1: seems pretty credible to me, just based on other strikes

2557
02:27:29,879 --> 02:27:33,920
Speaker 1: that I've read about. The Houthis launched a retaliatory strikes

2558
02:27:34,120 --> 02:27:36,840
Speaker 1: on the Enterprise, or at least they claim that they did.

2559
02:27:37,320 --> 02:27:41,040
Speaker 1: Wait on the on the Eisenhower. We did used to

2560
02:27:41,120 --> 02:27:43,400
Speaker 1: have an aircraft carrier name the Enterprise. I don't I

2561
02:27:43,440 --> 02:27:47,280
Speaker 1: think we've decommissioned it since I'm blaming real fast.

2562
02:27:47,400 --> 02:27:49,039
Speaker 4: He would he would not, he will?

2563
02:27:49,120 --> 02:27:51,200
Speaker 1: He would He would be fucking his way through the

2564
02:27:51,280 --> 02:27:57,560
Speaker 1: Houthis already. Kirk would have. That's ah. God, Star Trek

2565
02:27:57,680 --> 02:28:00,360
Speaker 1: is so much more fun to talk about than actual geopolos,

2566
02:28:01,000 --> 02:28:05,480
Speaker 1: which are mostly depressing with the genocide and all anyway,

2567
02:28:05,920 --> 02:28:08,040
Speaker 1: the houthis claimed that they launched an attack on the

2568
02:28:08,120 --> 02:28:12,800
Speaker 1: Eisenhower the US. The DoD says that they did not.

2569
02:28:13,240 --> 02:28:17,080
Speaker 1: The Hoothy Press person stated that they hit the Eisenhower.

2570
02:28:17,200 --> 02:28:20,840
Speaker 1: The hit was accurate and direct. Again, there's no evidence

2571
02:28:20,920 --> 02:28:24,800
Speaker 1: of this whatsoever that's been posted. The story seems to

2572
02:28:24,879 --> 02:28:28,840
Speaker 1: have started percolating out into kind of lefty media when

2573
02:28:28,920 --> 02:28:32,360
Speaker 1: Hoothy Press people made this announcement. I think the first

2574
02:28:32,800 --> 02:28:36,560
Speaker 1: direct statement I found about it outside of like hoothy

2575
02:28:36,680 --> 02:28:41,800
Speaker 1: Press resources was a Twitter account called for an online

2576
02:28:41,840 --> 02:28:45,840
Speaker 1: news magazine calling West Asian geopolitics called The Cradle. I'm

2577
02:28:45,879 --> 02:28:48,440
Speaker 1: not wildly familiar with The Cradle. They've got something like

2578
02:28:48,480 --> 02:28:52,440
Speaker 1: one hundred and nine thousand followers on Twitter, and they

2579
02:28:52,520 --> 02:28:54,879
Speaker 1: seem to mostly be you could say, like a broadly

2580
02:28:55,600 --> 02:28:59,600
Speaker 1: sort of anti imperialist left. Most of their content lately

2581
02:28:59,800 --> 02:29:03,920
Speaker 1: is very pro Gaza. You know, there's stuff like articles

2582
02:29:03,920 --> 02:29:07,600
Speaker 1: about Israeli organ trafficking networks in Turkey. You know, they've

2583
02:29:07,640 --> 02:29:10,959
Speaker 1: got like video clips of like pro Palestinian protesters getting

2584
02:29:11,040 --> 02:29:14,360
Speaker 1: dunks in on pro israel protesters, a like protests and

2585
02:29:14,400 --> 02:29:17,720
Speaker 1: stuff like that, very standard stuff. And on the thirty

2586
02:29:17,800 --> 02:29:21,600
Speaker 1: first they posted a They made a post yeah, basically

2587
02:29:21,720 --> 02:29:25,520
Speaker 1: restating what the Houthis had said, although they instead of

2588
02:29:25,720 --> 02:29:27,600
Speaker 1: saying the Houthis made a claim that they had struck

2589
02:29:27,640 --> 02:29:30,119
Speaker 1: the Eisenhower, they claimed it was ye many Armed Forces.

2590
02:29:30,560 --> 02:29:32,400
Speaker 1: It's an easy way to tell that someone is not

2591
02:29:32,560 --> 02:29:35,480
Speaker 1: accurately reporting on what's happening in Yemen because the Houthis

2592
02:29:35,520 --> 02:29:38,040
Speaker 1: are actively at war with YEA many armed forces. Like

2593
02:29:38,120 --> 02:29:40,720
Speaker 1: that is the actual reality of the situation on the

2594
02:29:40,800 --> 02:29:44,480
Speaker 1: ground over there. So this got picked up by chunks

2595
02:29:44,560 --> 02:29:48,920
Speaker 1: of lefty media, and particularly like American lefty media. I

2596
02:29:48,959 --> 02:29:52,040
Speaker 1: think one of the first big accounts to take this

2597
02:29:52,160 --> 02:29:55,279
Speaker 1: story was a guy named Ashton Forbes. You know Ashton.

2598
02:29:56,120 --> 02:29:58,520
Speaker 4: I don't think I've heard of Ashton Forbes. This is

2599
02:29:58,920 --> 02:30:04,880
Speaker 4: this whole like left media anti imperialism bubble has just

2600
02:30:04,959 --> 02:30:07,520
Speaker 4: gotten so big the past like six months.

2601
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:10,680
Speaker 1: These are mostly accounts, and I believe this is true

2602
02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:13,520
Speaker 1: for Ashton too, who like they blew up in the

2603
02:30:13,680 --> 02:30:17,920
Speaker 1: wake of October seventh once, particularly once the Israeli started

2604
02:30:18,000 --> 02:30:22,800
Speaker 1: launching massive strikes on Gaza. And they primarily exist within

2605
02:30:23,200 --> 02:30:28,040
Speaker 1: the profit ecosystem that Elon established in Twitter right where

2606
02:30:28,480 --> 02:30:30,760
Speaker 1: if you have a verified account and you get a

2607
02:30:30,800 --> 02:30:33,400
Speaker 1: lot of engagements from other verified accounts, you get a

2608
02:30:33,520 --> 02:30:36,720
Speaker 1: chunk of money from Twitter, right, And so all these

2609
02:30:36,720 --> 02:30:41,879
Speaker 1: people figured out that there's a huge appetite for reposted

2610
02:30:42,000 --> 02:30:44,840
Speaker 1: videos from Gaza or videos that you just claim are

2611
02:30:44,879 --> 02:30:46,960
Speaker 1: reposted videos from Gaza. A huge number of them are

2612
02:30:47,000 --> 02:30:50,039
Speaker 1: from Syria, and if they make people really angry or horrified,

2613
02:30:50,400 --> 02:30:52,680
Speaker 1: they'll get shared and get a ton of engagement, and

2614
02:30:52,760 --> 02:30:55,560
Speaker 1: you will get a check, right, Like, That's that's where

2615
02:30:55,640 --> 02:30:57,520
Speaker 1: Ashton comes out of. That's where all these guys come

2616
02:30:57,560 --> 02:31:00,480
Speaker 1: out of. So Ashton sees. I don't know if he

2617
02:31:00,520 --> 02:31:02,480
Speaker 1: picked it up directly from the hoothy press people. I

2618
02:31:02,480 --> 02:31:03,680
Speaker 1: don't know if he picked it up from that thing

2619
02:31:03,720 --> 02:31:07,120
Speaker 1: on the cradle, But he posts the next day breaking

2620
02:31:07,480 --> 02:31:10,680
Speaker 1: and he's got of course, of course I'll show you.

2621
02:31:10,680 --> 02:31:12,760
Speaker 1: I'll share screen garrisons. You can see he's got he's

2622
02:31:12,760 --> 02:31:15,160
Speaker 1: got the two little sirens. Yeah, he's got the two

2623
02:31:15,200 --> 02:31:18,160
Speaker 1: little sirens on either side. Oh yeah, no, of course

2624
02:31:18,600 --> 02:31:21,640
Speaker 1: there's a million of this guy. This guy is all

2625
02:31:21,720 --> 02:31:24,720
Speaker 1: over the internet. A source has informed me that the

2626
02:31:24,840 --> 02:31:29,360
Speaker 1: USS Eisenhower has been sunk all caps. Mainstream media reports

2627
02:31:29,360 --> 02:31:32,240
Speaker 1: from yesterday claim the ship was not hit by Houthy missiles.

2628
02:31:32,520 --> 02:31:36,480
Speaker 1: Social media shows conflicting reports of damage. I'm seeking corroboration

2629
02:31:36,640 --> 02:31:40,200
Speaker 1: on this potentially huge story. So first we see the

2630
02:31:40,600 --> 02:31:43,879
Speaker 1: escalation of the HOUTHI say, we shot at the Eisenhower

2631
02:31:44,000 --> 02:31:46,320
Speaker 1: and we hit it right. They didn't claim they'd sunk it.

2632
02:31:46,400 --> 02:31:48,440
Speaker 1: I think because the Houthis are like, they're not dumb,

2633
02:31:48,640 --> 02:31:51,760
Speaker 1: and like, that's an easy claim to disprove. Whereas yeah,

2634
02:31:51,879 --> 02:31:54,320
Speaker 1: you can kind of like there's not as much live

2635
02:31:54,760 --> 02:31:56,480
Speaker 1: footage of this, you could kind of get away for

2636
02:31:56,480 --> 02:31:58,240
Speaker 1: a while with making people think maybe you damaged it

2637
02:31:58,320 --> 02:32:00,160
Speaker 1: a little bit, or at least you got close, you know.

2638
02:32:00,840 --> 02:32:04,680
Speaker 1: But a source a source, yes, a source from citizen

2639
02:32:04,800 --> 02:32:10,640
Speaker 1: journalist Ashton Forbes speaking truth to power. Yeah. The evidence

2640
02:32:10,720 --> 02:32:12,920
Speaker 1: that Forbes post, because he says, like social media so

2641
02:32:12,959 --> 02:32:16,440
Speaker 1: there's conflicting reports of damage, is a screen grab of

2642
02:32:16,520 --> 02:32:19,560
Speaker 1: what looks like an aircraft carrier that's on fire. You

2643
02:32:19,680 --> 02:32:21,440
Speaker 1: can see a water very.

2644
02:32:21,320 --> 02:32:23,880
Speaker 4: Boring, very very blurry picture as well.

2645
02:32:24,040 --> 02:32:26,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's there's there's a watermark. I don't know

2646
02:32:26,400 --> 02:32:28,120
Speaker 1: if you can see it clearly on this gear, but

2647
02:32:28,280 --> 02:32:31,080
Speaker 1: like that says Arabic journal so he clearly took it

2648
02:32:31,240 --> 02:32:35,160
Speaker 1: from another website. Right now, I would describe the image

2649
02:32:35,240 --> 02:32:38,320
Speaker 1: quality of this as cell phone camera circa two thousand

2650
02:32:38,360 --> 02:32:38,760
Speaker 1: and seven.

2651
02:32:39,400 --> 02:32:44,520
Speaker 4: That's accurate. Yeah, it roughly at like three d s camera. Yeah, yeah,

2652
02:32:45,280 --> 02:32:45,640
Speaker 4: it looked.

2653
02:32:45,680 --> 02:32:47,800
Speaker 1: It's not even super clear to me that that's an

2654
02:32:47,800 --> 02:32:52,240
Speaker 1: aircraft carrier. Forbes's post obviously, you know, does not occur

2655
02:32:52,400 --> 02:32:54,480
Speaker 1: in a vacuum here, And it would be deeply fucked

2656
02:32:54,520 --> 02:32:57,520
Speaker 1: up for me to say, like citizen journalists shouldn't exist,

2657
02:32:57,720 --> 02:33:00,320
Speaker 1: Like if someone identifies themselves as that, it's a sign

2658
02:33:00,360 --> 02:33:02,920
Speaker 1: that they're danger or that they're they're full of shit, right,

2659
02:33:02,959 --> 02:33:06,880
Speaker 1: because recent history is filled with people who call themselves

2660
02:33:07,240 --> 02:33:10,160
Speaker 1: citizen journalists putting out bullshit. But like it's also filled

2661
02:33:10,200 --> 02:33:13,240
Speaker 1: with instances of citizens doing crucial journalism in the absence

2662
02:33:13,280 --> 02:33:14,960
Speaker 1: of credential professionals.

2663
02:33:14,920 --> 02:33:16,280
Speaker 4: Especially in Gaza right now.

2664
02:33:16,520 --> 02:33:18,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that's basically everything, right, in part

2665
02:33:18,720 --> 02:33:21,400
Speaker 1: because most of the journalists who have tried to report

2666
02:33:21,440 --> 02:33:23,880
Speaker 1: on it have been fucking murdered. But even in the US,

2667
02:33:24,000 --> 02:33:26,040
Speaker 1: we have the recent case of Darnella Frasier, who was

2668
02:33:26,040 --> 02:33:27,840
Speaker 1: the eighteen year old woman who filmed the murder of

2669
02:33:27,920 --> 02:33:30,400
Speaker 1: George Floyd on May twenty fifth, twenty twenty. She received

2670
02:33:30,440 --> 02:33:34,640
Speaker 1: a Pulitzer Prize the next year for her video. However, journalism,

2671
02:33:34,720 --> 02:33:37,600
Speaker 1: while again there's a lot of value in citizen journalism,

2672
02:33:37,920 --> 02:33:40,880
Speaker 1: journalism is also a technical trade and there are in

2673
02:33:40,959 --> 02:33:43,520
Speaker 1: fact some things that random dirts on the Internet should

2674
02:33:43,600 --> 02:33:47,280
Speaker 1: not report on, and an attack on the Eisenhower is

2675
02:33:47,400 --> 02:33:50,000
Speaker 1: maybe one of them. To make a long story short,

2676
02:33:50,280 --> 02:33:53,879
Speaker 1: the USS Eisenhower was not sunk. It is virtually impossible

2677
02:33:53,920 --> 02:33:56,359
Speaker 1: for non state forces like the Houthies, with the weaponry

2678
02:33:56,440 --> 02:33:59,960
Speaker 1: that they currently enjoy, to sink a vessel like the Eisenhower.

2679
02:34:00,400 --> 02:34:02,200
Speaker 1: And for a little bit of context on why that

2680
02:34:02,360 --> 02:34:04,959
Speaker 1: is the case, I want to talk about another aircraft

2681
02:34:05,040 --> 02:34:08,760
Speaker 1: carrier called the USS Independence. The Independence was one of

2682
02:34:08,840 --> 02:34:11,640
Speaker 1: many many aircraft carriers produced by the United States to

2683
02:34:11,720 --> 02:34:14,119
Speaker 1: curb stomp the Empire of Japan during World War Two.

2684
02:34:14,800 --> 02:34:17,720
Speaker 1: After that war, we found ourselves with way more aircraft

2685
02:34:17,800 --> 02:34:20,800
Speaker 1: carriers than we needed or could afford to operate indefinitely

2686
02:34:20,840 --> 02:34:23,840
Speaker 1: at peacetime. So we decided to do the smartest thing

2687
02:34:23,920 --> 02:34:26,640
Speaker 1: we could with all these extra aircraft carriers and nuke them.

2688
02:34:27,240 --> 02:34:27,960
Speaker 4: That was swait.

2689
02:34:29,920 --> 02:34:36,880
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well, it's classic nineteen forty six America logic.

2690
02:34:37,280 --> 02:34:38,400
Speaker 4: That is true. That is true.

2691
02:34:38,600 --> 02:34:43,640
Speaker 1: That is so, the Independence didn't brave nuclear hell fire alone.

2692
02:34:43,720 --> 02:34:47,360
Speaker 1: As part of Operations Crossroads, we detonated two nuclear bombs

2693
02:34:47,440 --> 02:34:50,520
Speaker 1: within seventeen hundred feet of a fleet of ships. That's

2694
02:34:50,560 --> 02:34:53,480
Speaker 1: pretty close to point blank range in nuclear weapons terms.

2695
02:34:54,000 --> 02:34:56,960
Speaker 1: Fourteen ships were sunk out right by these nukes, and

2696
02:34:57,040 --> 02:34:59,880
Speaker 1: the remainder were badly damaged. The Independence was one of

2697
02:35:00,160 --> 02:35:03,080
Speaker 1: the boats that remained floating, though, and it actually was

2698
02:35:03,200 --> 02:35:08,039
Speaker 1: towed back to San Francisco after being nuked twice. Two

2699
02:35:08,240 --> 02:35:11,920
Speaker 1: nukes could not sink a nineteen forty six aircraft carrier.

2700
02:35:12,440 --> 02:35:14,480
Speaker 4: What are they building these things out of?

2701
02:35:14,920 --> 02:35:18,039
Speaker 1: They're very big, and they are if you are attacking

2702
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:21,560
Speaker 1: them above the water line, it's really hard to sink

2703
02:35:21,640 --> 02:35:24,320
Speaker 1: one of these boats, right, Like, that's kind of the thing.

2704
02:35:24,400 --> 02:35:26,920
Speaker 1: You can lob huge missiles and hit them with huge

2705
02:35:27,000 --> 02:35:29,160
Speaker 1: missiles on the top of the thing, and that can

2706
02:35:29,480 --> 02:35:31,800
Speaker 1: stop them from being able to launch aircraft. It can

2707
02:35:31,879 --> 02:35:35,120
Speaker 1: kill crew, but unless you're actually blowing a big hole

2708
02:35:35,200 --> 02:35:37,560
Speaker 1: in it below the water line, you're not going to

2709
02:35:37,680 --> 02:35:39,840
Speaker 1: send one of these fuckers to the bottom of the ocean,

2710
02:35:39,959 --> 02:35:41,200
Speaker 1: right That's just kind of sure.

2711
02:35:41,440 --> 02:35:44,360
Speaker 4: Physics, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

2712
02:35:44,440 --> 02:35:47,760
Speaker 1: So we towed the Independence back to San Francisco. They

2713
02:35:47,800 --> 02:35:50,440
Speaker 1: actually built a radiation lab in the boat itself for

2714
02:35:50,520 --> 02:35:54,560
Speaker 1: a while. And then that's again because the United States

2715
02:35:54,640 --> 02:35:57,600
Speaker 1: be how the United States do? We filled this massive

2716
02:35:57,680 --> 02:36:01,199
Speaker 1: boat with concrete drums full of radioactive waist and sunk

2717
02:36:01,240 --> 02:36:03,959
Speaker 1: it thirty miles off the coast of California with two torpes.

2718
02:36:04,000 --> 02:36:11,039
Speaker 4: That's fucking hilarious. That rules. Hell yeah, brother, this country man.

2719
02:36:14,200 --> 02:36:17,880
Speaker 1: So again, once we started lobbin torpedoes at this fucker

2720
02:36:18,120 --> 02:36:21,039
Speaker 1: underneath the boat, it was not wildly hard to sink

2721
02:36:21,120 --> 02:36:23,199
Speaker 1: the son of a bitch, right, And that's the reality

2722
02:36:23,240 --> 02:36:24,959
Speaker 1: of the situation. If the Huthies were able to get

2723
02:36:25,040 --> 02:36:27,920
Speaker 1: like some subs that were capable of like actually getting

2724
02:36:28,040 --> 02:36:31,120
Speaker 1: through you know, the dragnet of boats that are defending

2725
02:36:31,520 --> 02:36:34,080
Speaker 1: the Enterprise, and they could get any kind of you know,

2726
02:36:34,280 --> 02:36:37,560
Speaker 1: decent sized torpedo underneath it, they might have a chance

2727
02:36:37,640 --> 02:36:38,160
Speaker 1: of sinking it.

2728
02:36:38,400 --> 02:36:43,080
Speaker 4: Photon torpedoes, photon torpedo for the Enterprise, yes, yes, yes, yes,

2729
02:36:43,440 --> 02:36:44,480
Speaker 4: or a quantum torpedo.

2730
02:36:44,560 --> 02:36:46,959
Speaker 1: If we've moved on to d S nine Garrison.

2731
02:36:47,000 --> 02:36:48,840
Speaker 4: Oh, I've not started DS nine year.

2732
02:36:48,920 --> 02:36:51,680
Speaker 1: Oh, oh, it's great. It's the horniest star Trek Garrison,

2733
02:36:51,720 --> 02:36:57,960
Speaker 1: which is shocking to it is shockingly horny. So I

2734
02:36:58,000 --> 02:37:00,400
Speaker 1: want to note while I'm talking about the impossi ability

2735
02:37:00,400 --> 02:37:03,359
Speaker 1: of the Huthies using their current methods, which are basically

2736
02:37:03,440 --> 02:37:06,560
Speaker 1: when it comes to how they've been attacking the Eisenhower,

2737
02:37:06,600 --> 02:37:08,959
Speaker 1: they've been either flying drones at it, trying to ram

2738
02:37:09,080 --> 02:37:12,160
Speaker 1: it with an explosive drone, or launching cruise missiles at

2739
02:37:12,200 --> 02:37:14,480
Speaker 1: it right, and all of these are basically aiming for

2740
02:37:14,640 --> 02:37:16,560
Speaker 1: the top of this boat, because that's kind of the

2741
02:37:16,640 --> 02:37:17,320
Speaker 1: option that they have.

2742
02:37:17,800 --> 02:37:21,320
Speaker 4: I was not aware that they had like advanced submarine capabilities.

2743
02:37:21,680 --> 02:37:24,040
Speaker 1: They sure don't as far as I'm aware they don't. Yeah,

2744
02:37:24,320 --> 02:37:27,360
Speaker 1: now it is. It's worth noting potentially it could be

2745
02:37:27,480 --> 02:37:32,760
Speaker 1: surprisingly easy sometimes to sink a modern aircraft carrier if

2746
02:37:32,800 --> 02:37:35,400
Speaker 1: you have a decent submarine. And there's evidence of this

2747
02:37:35,520 --> 02:37:38,720
Speaker 1: that came from a joint Franco US naval exercise off

2748
02:37:38,760 --> 02:37:41,440
Speaker 1: to the coast of Florida in March of twenty fifteen,

2749
02:37:41,520 --> 02:37:44,400
Speaker 1: where basically we're doing this exercise with the French at

2750
02:37:44,440 --> 02:37:47,360
Speaker 1: one point. This French submarine is part of the Op

2751
02:37:47,480 --> 02:37:50,160
Speaker 1: four which is like opposition forces during a war game,

2752
02:37:50,560 --> 02:37:53,440
Speaker 1: and it sinks the Roosevelt and most of its escorts

2753
02:37:53,640 --> 02:37:57,240
Speaker 1: in like a simulated battle. And this is you know,

2754
02:37:57,640 --> 02:38:01,720
Speaker 1: it's very funny because like the French military posted about

2755
02:38:01,720 --> 02:38:03,160
Speaker 1: this and then had to delete it because it was

2756
02:38:03,440 --> 02:38:06,400
Speaker 1: really embarrassing for the Navy, and it's seen as evidence

2757
02:38:06,400 --> 02:38:09,320
Speaker 1: by people who actually know their shit about naval power

2758
02:38:09,440 --> 02:38:13,720
Speaker 1: and naval warfare is like, oh, US anti sub interdiction

2759
02:38:14,240 --> 02:38:17,800
Speaker 1: tactics and technology really took a hit in the post

2760
02:38:17,840 --> 02:38:20,280
Speaker 1: Cold War period. We stopped putting money into it because

2761
02:38:20,320 --> 02:38:22,800
Speaker 1: like we thought, well, who's going to send subs after

2762
02:38:22,920 --> 02:38:24,040
Speaker 1: us if the Russians are gone?

2763
02:38:24,120 --> 02:38:24,280
Speaker 9: Right?

2764
02:38:24,520 --> 02:38:26,280
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, yeah, yea yeah yeah.

2765
02:38:26,440 --> 02:38:27,959
Speaker 1: So I don't mean to say that like these boats

2766
02:38:28,000 --> 02:38:31,040
Speaker 1: are invulnerable. Nothing can stop the US Navy. In fact,

2767
02:38:31,080 --> 02:38:35,360
Speaker 1: the evidence suggests that like a modestly powerful naval power

2768
02:38:35,400 --> 02:38:37,560
Speaker 1: could do some serious damage to a carrier group in

2769
02:38:37,600 --> 02:38:40,600
Speaker 1: the right circumstances. It's just the way the houthis. The

2770
02:38:40,640 --> 02:38:42,960
Speaker 1: claims people are making about how the houthis sunk the

2771
02:38:43,120 --> 02:38:45,879
Speaker 1: Eisenhower is not a way in which the Eisenhower could

2772
02:38:45,959 --> 02:38:49,320
Speaker 1: realistically be sunk. Right, some bootleg Iranian missiles are not

2773
02:38:49,520 --> 02:38:52,280
Speaker 1: going to sink the most advanced carrier in the world today.

2774
02:38:52,520 --> 02:38:56,080
Speaker 1: Two nukes couldn't do a comparatively shitty carrier in nineteen

2775
02:38:56,160 --> 02:38:58,959
Speaker 1: forty six. Now, this is all pretty obvious to anyone

2776
02:38:59,000 --> 02:39:01,680
Speaker 1: who knows the first thing about modern naval warfare. But

2777
02:39:01,760 --> 02:39:05,640
Speaker 1: it was not obvious to our citizen journalist friend, Ashton Forbes.

2778
02:39:05,920 --> 02:39:07,920
Speaker 1: When numerous people pointed out to him that his claims

2779
02:39:07,959 --> 02:39:10,760
Speaker 1: were absurd, he replied, yeah, I wanted to hold back

2780
02:39:10,800 --> 02:39:12,840
Speaker 1: on this story in case it's not true, but I

2781
02:39:12,920 --> 02:39:15,360
Speaker 1: trust my source and the media reports stink to me.

2782
02:39:15,600 --> 02:39:17,520
Speaker 1: If this ends up being wrong, I'll retract. But the

2783
02:39:17,560 --> 02:39:19,640
Speaker 1: implications are too huge not to report?

2784
02:39:20,480 --> 02:39:22,440
Speaker 4: Sure, sure, yeah, sure, buddy, why not.

2785
02:39:23,240 --> 02:39:26,200
Speaker 1: We're going to dig into that and the ethics of

2786
02:39:26,280 --> 02:39:30,400
Speaker 1: the journalism that he claims to be practicing. But first,

2787
02:39:30,840 --> 02:39:34,200
Speaker 1: the ethics of my journalism are that you should buy

2788
02:39:34,280 --> 02:39:49,880
Speaker 1: whatever these advertisers are selling, and we're back. So I

2789
02:39:50,000 --> 02:39:53,720
Speaker 1: really hate the too huge not to report justification. That's like,

2790
02:39:54,480 --> 02:39:58,320
Speaker 1: that's incredibly unethical journalism, because like, if a story is

2791
02:39:58,400 --> 02:39:59,320
Speaker 1: that huge.

2792
02:39:59,120 --> 02:40:01,720
Speaker 4: Actually, Robert, no, no, no, I just got an update

2793
02:40:01,760 --> 02:40:05,640
Speaker 4: from a source that nine to eleven two just happened.

2794
02:40:06,320 --> 02:40:08,760
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I have, I have, I have a very

2795
02:40:08,840 --> 02:40:11,680
Speaker 4: blurry picture. I'm going to post it up on Twitter

2796
02:40:11,800 --> 02:40:15,160
Speaker 4: right now. I can't verify, but this is if true,

2797
02:40:15,879 --> 02:40:18,960
Speaker 4: this is groundbreaking, uh literally in case of you know

2798
02:40:19,120 --> 02:40:19,879
Speaker 4: the ground.

2799
02:40:20,120 --> 02:40:22,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know listeners are like, there's no way

2800
02:40:22,959 --> 02:40:25,880
Speaker 1: nine to eleven two happened several days ago by the

2801
02:40:25,920 --> 02:40:27,720
Speaker 1: time you listened to this episode, and I haven't heard

2802
02:40:27,720 --> 02:40:30,280
Speaker 1: about it. I want to remind you about the film

2803
02:40:30,360 --> 02:40:32,720
Speaker 1: Mad Max Fury Road. You know, when that came out,

2804
02:40:32,920 --> 02:40:36,000
Speaker 1: none of us were expecting another Mad Max movie and

2805
02:40:36,120 --> 02:40:37,800
Speaker 1: we got a great one. And I think nine to

2806
02:40:37,800 --> 02:40:41,000
Speaker 1: eleven two could be the Fury Road of terrorism attacks.

2807
02:40:41,600 --> 02:40:45,199
Speaker 4: Real promise, real promise. They also could be censoring the story.

2808
02:40:45,240 --> 02:40:46,080
Speaker 4: They may not want you to know.

2809
02:40:46,280 --> 02:40:48,160
Speaker 1: In case you haven't heard the news, doesn't want you

2810
02:40:48,240 --> 02:40:50,640
Speaker 1: to know that nine eleven two already happened because it's

2811
02:40:50,640 --> 02:40:53,279
Speaker 1: going to destroy the market for nine to eleven one memorabilia.

2812
02:40:53,840 --> 02:40:58,960
Speaker 1: You know, that's everybody needs to read Manufacturing Consent by Chomsky.

2813
02:40:59,160 --> 02:40:59,920
Speaker 1: He lays it all.

2814
02:41:03,959 --> 02:41:04,680
Speaker 4: As you're saying.

2815
02:41:05,240 --> 02:41:08,120
Speaker 1: So obviously, if a story is as big as this

2816
02:41:08,360 --> 02:41:10,960
Speaker 1: and the sinking of the Eisenhower would be like the

2817
02:41:11,080 --> 02:41:14,920
Speaker 1: most significant military reversal in the twenty first century. Maybe,

2818
02:41:15,320 --> 02:41:17,000
Speaker 1: you know, I guess you could argue like the US

2819
02:41:17,640 --> 02:41:21,680
Speaker 1: of leaving Afghanistan. Maybe, But honestly, from a technological standpoint,

2820
02:41:21,720 --> 02:41:24,480
Speaker 1: at least the huth he's managing to drop an aircraft

2821
02:41:24,560 --> 02:41:27,240
Speaker 1: carrier would be massive. And if a story is that big,

2822
02:41:27,520 --> 02:41:30,119
Speaker 1: you have a responsibility not to report on it until

2823
02:41:30,160 --> 02:41:32,920
Speaker 1: you have any reason at all to believe that it's true.

2824
02:41:33,360 --> 02:41:36,360
Speaker 1: So when somebody says the implication or too the implications

2825
02:41:36,400 --> 02:41:38,080
Speaker 1: are too huge not to report on what they mean

2826
02:41:38,200 --> 02:41:40,360
Speaker 1: is I wanted the clout in traffic from getting this

2827
02:41:40,480 --> 02:41:42,680
Speaker 1: out first, and I don't really care if it's true.

2828
02:41:43,360 --> 02:41:46,040
Speaker 1: Now it happens to be quite easy to prove that

2829
02:41:46,080 --> 02:41:48,960
Speaker 1: the USS Eisenhower is still among the living, because the

2830
02:41:49,080 --> 02:41:50,959
Speaker 1: captain of that boat is a poster.

2831
02:41:51,720 --> 02:41:53,640
Speaker 4: His name is oh God, Oh.

2832
02:41:54,240 --> 02:41:57,039
Speaker 1: This man posts like you wouldn't believe Garrison. I've never

2833
02:41:57,160 --> 02:42:01,320
Speaker 1: seen a commanding officer in the military who posts.

2834
02:42:01,080 --> 02:42:01,640
Speaker 2: Like this man.

2835
02:42:02,600 --> 02:42:05,640
Speaker 4: Do you think Riker would be a poster? I don't know.

2836
02:42:06,360 --> 02:42:08,720
Speaker 1: Riker would be. He would do a lot of dming.

2837
02:42:08,840 --> 02:42:14,320
Speaker 1: He would be sliding into DMS, an awful loss like yeah, yes, absolutely,

2838
02:42:14,560 --> 02:42:16,920
Speaker 1: he would constantly be trying to fuck But I think

2839
02:42:16,959 --> 02:42:19,200
Speaker 1: the only reason he would actually post is when like

2840
02:42:19,360 --> 02:42:21,680
Speaker 1: something broke and he couldn't figure out how to fix it,

2841
02:42:21,920 --> 02:42:25,119
Speaker 1: he would he would be like adding Jordie constantly like yes,

2842
02:42:25,920 --> 02:42:27,440
Speaker 1: I can't get my computer working.

2843
02:42:28,280 --> 02:42:28,959
Speaker 4: That makes sense.

2844
02:42:29,440 --> 02:42:32,720
Speaker 1: So the captain of the Enterprise is Christopher F. Hill.

2845
02:42:32,800 --> 02:42:35,200
Speaker 1: And again he's a poster for reasons that I have

2846
02:42:35,360 --> 02:42:37,600
Speaker 1: not bothered to look into and don't care to learn.

2847
02:42:37,879 --> 02:42:40,920
Speaker 1: He goes by chowda on Twitter like with a with

2848
02:42:41,000 --> 02:42:43,560
Speaker 1: a dah, I don't I don't know why, and within

2849
02:42:43,680 --> 02:42:47,720
Speaker 1: minutes of the Forbes post about uh, or of of

2850
02:42:47,800 --> 02:42:51,000
Speaker 1: Forbes's post, he himself posted videos of the bakery on

2851
02:42:51,080 --> 02:42:54,320
Speaker 1: board the Eisenhower, which showed no signs of being underwater.

2852
02:42:54,760 --> 02:42:56,280
Speaker 1: I think that was kind of his subtle way of

2853
02:42:56,360 --> 02:42:59,400
Speaker 1: being like, we are still making like cinnamon rolls, like

2854
02:42:59,560 --> 02:43:02,920
Speaker 1: every is fine on board this ship. In short order,

2855
02:43:03,280 --> 02:43:07,680
Speaker 1: Internet Salutes discovered that the video clip posted by Forbes

2856
02:43:07,720 --> 02:43:11,400
Speaker 1: that claimed to show the Eisenhower in flames was Garrison.

2857
02:43:11,400 --> 02:43:12,920
Speaker 1: Do you want to guess where this what this was

2858
02:43:12,959 --> 02:43:13,840
Speaker 1: a screenshot from?

2859
02:43:14,440 --> 02:43:15,320
Speaker 4: Is this a video game?

2860
02:43:15,520 --> 02:43:17,720
Speaker 1: It is a video game. It's the video game Arma three.

2861
02:43:17,840 --> 02:43:22,840
Speaker 1: It's from Arma three every time, every time, whenever this

2862
02:43:22,959 --> 02:43:26,080
Speaker 1: happens in the war in Ukraine too. Constantly they'll be like,

2863
02:43:26,320 --> 02:43:28,480
Speaker 1: we've shot down you know, a bunch of these MiG

2864
02:43:28,560 --> 02:43:31,720
Speaker 1: twenty ones, or you know, shot down this massive Russian

2865
02:43:31,840 --> 02:43:34,400
Speaker 1: jet that's never been shot down before. Every time it's

2866
02:43:34,520 --> 02:43:37,080
Speaker 1: Arma three, like every single time.

2867
02:43:37,600 --> 02:43:38,280
Speaker 4: Unbelievable.

2868
02:43:39,120 --> 02:43:42,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, like eighty percent of the time, fake videos of

2869
02:43:42,360 --> 02:43:46,360
Speaker 1: military vehicles being destroyed, it's just clips from Arma three. Now,

2870
02:43:46,720 --> 02:43:49,480
Speaker 1: a brief glance into the backstory of Ashton Forbes would

2871
02:43:49,480 --> 02:43:51,560
Speaker 1: have made it clear that his claims were nonsense, as

2872
02:43:51,600 --> 02:43:54,320
Speaker 1: this rite up by George Allison in the UK Defense

2873
02:43:54,440 --> 02:43:57,760
Speaker 1: Journal notes, Ashton Forbes, despite his self identified role as

2874
02:43:57,800 --> 02:44:00,280
Speaker 1: a citizen journalist, has i'm told, a history of hosting

2875
02:44:00,360 --> 02:44:04,640
Speaker 1: sensational and often unverified claims, particularly about Malaysia Airlines. Flight

2876
02:44:04,720 --> 02:44:09,039
Speaker 1: three seventy was a commercial flight that disappeared in twenty

2877
02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:12,080
Speaker 1: fourteen we'll en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, leading

2878
02:44:12,120 --> 02:44:15,240
Speaker 1: to numerous conspiracy theories. Now we don't actually know why

2879
02:44:15,440 --> 02:44:18,480
Speaker 1: MH three seventy went down. I think probably the leading

2880
02:44:18,640 --> 02:44:21,400
Speaker 1: theory was that the pilot committed suicide. But even that,

2881
02:44:21,520 --> 02:44:24,119
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's like strong. I don't think

2882
02:44:24,120 --> 02:44:26,959
Speaker 1: it's it's very unclear, could have just been a fuck up,

2883
02:44:27,000 --> 02:44:29,400
Speaker 1: something like it's we really don't know, which is why

2884
02:44:29,480 --> 02:44:30,800
Speaker 1: there's so much conspiracy.

2885
02:44:30,800 --> 02:44:31,760
Speaker 4: It could have gone into a wormhole.

2886
02:44:31,959 --> 02:44:34,280
Speaker 1: So it could have gone into the wormhole right now.

2887
02:44:34,680 --> 02:44:38,160
Speaker 1: Forbes's belief, according to I found a post by Swift

2888
02:44:38,240 --> 02:44:41,280
Speaker 1: on security, who's a popular security expert, who states that

2889
02:44:41,360 --> 02:44:45,080
Speaker 1: Forbes believes MH three seventy had secret free energy tech

2890
02:44:45,160 --> 02:44:47,879
Speaker 1: on it that was raptured into a wormhole by reptilians.

2891
02:44:48,000 --> 02:44:48,920
Speaker 4: Are you so good?

2892
02:44:50,200 --> 02:44:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you actually got it.

2893
02:44:51,440 --> 02:44:52,200
Speaker 4: I was doing a bit.

2894
02:44:52,959 --> 02:45:00,200
Speaker 1: You got it right, Garrison, Oh my god, Swim. It's

2895
02:45:00,400 --> 02:45:03,640
Speaker 1: an example of another one of the Citizen Journalist's big

2896
02:45:03,800 --> 02:45:09,480
Speaker 1: scoops free energy announcement. Free Energy, otherwise known as over Unity,

2897
02:45:09,600 --> 02:45:12,520
Speaker 1: is one hundred percent real. The devices exists already. I

2898
02:45:12,600 --> 02:45:15,240
Speaker 1: have been told exactly how an operational device works. I

2899
02:45:15,320 --> 02:45:18,800
Speaker 1: signed an NDA, so won't be able to disclose specifics.

2900
02:45:19,240 --> 02:45:20,279
Speaker 4: One hundred.

2901
02:45:21,440 --> 02:45:24,840
Speaker 1: That's great. I love that the people who figure out

2902
02:45:24,879 --> 02:45:27,680
Speaker 1: free energy would let you post about it as long

2903
02:45:27,720 --> 02:45:29,520
Speaker 1: as you don't explain how it works.

2904
02:45:30,200 --> 02:45:31,959
Speaker 4: I like that you signed an NDA, so you can't

2905
02:45:31,959 --> 02:45:33,800
Speaker 4: talk about it except for this post in what you

2906
02:45:33,920 --> 02:45:36,680
Speaker 4: do talk about it, and which have absolutely talk about

2907
02:45:36,840 --> 02:45:39,600
Speaker 4: classic classic move Now.

2908
02:45:39,920 --> 02:45:43,199
Speaker 1: Once Forbes's post started to gain traction, the entire ecosystem

2909
02:45:43,240 --> 02:45:46,040
Speaker 1: of infogrifters who cropped up like mushrooms to profit off

2910
02:45:46,040 --> 02:45:49,320
Speaker 1: the massacre in Gaza swung into gear thanks to Elon's

2911
02:45:49,320 --> 02:45:52,240
Speaker 1: new ownership of Twitter, Being able to draw viral crowds

2912
02:45:52,280 --> 02:45:54,960
Speaker 1: to your content by latching onto the most discussed topics

2913
02:45:54,959 --> 02:45:57,680
Speaker 1: of the day is very profitable, as we discussed, and

2914
02:45:57,800 --> 02:45:59,960
Speaker 1: into this mix you do have some state funded actors.

2915
02:46:00,080 --> 02:46:02,680
Speaker 1: You've got people working for Iran, for Israel, for Russia,

2916
02:46:02,720 --> 02:46:05,080
Speaker 1: for the United States, all trying to push their own

2917
02:46:05,120 --> 02:46:08,600
Speaker 1: sundry lines of propaganda using the engines of algorithmic virality.

2918
02:46:09,160 --> 02:46:11,920
Speaker 1: And then, of course there are the legitimately hopeful but

2919
02:46:12,040 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 1: ill informed. And these are the people that I have

2920
02:46:14,560 --> 02:46:17,920
Speaker 1: sympathy with and who I'm kind of like focusing on.

2921
02:46:18,160 --> 02:46:22,360
Speaker 1: These are people who are understandably numb from constant exposure

2922
02:46:22,400 --> 02:46:25,240
Speaker 1: to a barrage of photos and videos of war crimes,

2923
02:46:25,720 --> 02:46:29,080
Speaker 1: and they are desperately ready to believe in some kind

2924
02:46:29,120 --> 02:46:31,000
Speaker 1: of miraculous underdog victory.

2925
02:46:31,080 --> 02:46:31,160
Speaker 7: Right.

2926
02:46:31,200 --> 02:46:33,600
Speaker 1: Hollywood fiction has trained us all to see that as possible.

2927
02:46:34,160 --> 02:46:35,880
Speaker 1: This is being thought of by a lot of people

2928
02:46:35,920 --> 02:46:39,840
Speaker 1: who are just numb and broken from videos of horror

2929
02:46:40,200 --> 02:46:42,520
Speaker 1: as like, well, I don't know, maybe we could have

2930
02:46:42,600 --> 02:46:45,040
Speaker 1: our Star Wars moment, right, maybe we've got a Luke

2931
02:46:45,080 --> 02:46:49,279
Speaker 1: Skywalker downing the death Star. Now the houthis aren't Luke Skywalker,

2932
02:46:49,320 --> 02:46:53,160
Speaker 1: and the Eisenhower isn't entirely the death Star. It's like

2933
02:46:53,600 --> 02:46:57,040
Speaker 1: it's got shades of Death Star. It's DNA, it's got

2934
02:46:57,120 --> 02:46:59,520
Speaker 1: some Death Star DNA and it sure yeah.

2935
02:47:00,040 --> 02:47:01,680
Speaker 4: I mean it's closer to closer to a star.

2936
02:47:01,560 --> 02:47:04,760
Speaker 1: Destroyer, closer to a star destroyer right right right. One

2937
02:47:04,800 --> 02:47:08,160
Speaker 1: of the posts I came across researching this was Alden Marky,

2938
02:47:08,280 --> 02:47:11,720
Speaker 1: who describes himself as a counter propagandist and researcher with

2939
02:47:11,800 --> 02:47:14,400
Speaker 1: a focus on Yemen. He posted a photoshop of the

2940
02:47:14,440 --> 02:47:17,480
Speaker 1: Eisenhower from above with a dagger in the water beneath it.

2941
02:47:17,879 --> 02:47:20,520
Speaker 1: This was accompanied by the text uss Eisenhower was just

2942
02:47:20,560 --> 02:47:22,640
Speaker 1: struck for the second time in twenty four hours, and

2943
02:47:22,720 --> 02:47:25,200
Speaker 1: it had something like two thousand likes, two hundred and

2944
02:47:25,200 --> 02:47:29,080
Speaker 1: fifty thousand views when I came across it. Another account

2945
02:47:29,160 --> 02:47:32,039
Speaker 1: quote tweeted this and got nearly five thousand likes, saying

2946
02:47:32,120 --> 02:47:34,360
Speaker 1: it won't happen, but it would be so fucking funny

2947
02:47:34,360 --> 02:47:37,200
Speaker 1: if Yeman sinks an aircraft carrier, like can you imagine?

2948
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:40,280
Speaker 1: And I think that guy represents the more common attitude,

2949
02:47:40,320 --> 02:47:43,000
Speaker 1: which is this mix of on we and desperation. Right,

2950
02:47:43,440 --> 02:47:46,560
Speaker 1: nothing is going to stop this massacre. It seems like that.

2951
02:47:46,640 --> 02:47:49,000
Speaker 1: It really feels like that, right, But wouldn't it be

2952
02:47:49,120 --> 02:47:51,440
Speaker 1: rad if something did? And to be realistic, I don't

2953
02:47:51,480 --> 02:47:53,840
Speaker 1: know that. I think there's a real odds that dropping

2954
02:47:53,920 --> 02:47:56,920
Speaker 1: the Eisenhower somehow would stop netnyahou from what he's doing.

2955
02:47:57,000 --> 02:47:59,680
Speaker 1: I mean maybe it would, like it would certainly reduce

2956
02:47:59,720 --> 02:48:02,959
Speaker 1: the ability of the United States to interdict Iranian messles

2957
02:48:03,000 --> 02:48:05,680
Speaker 1: coming into Israel, But I don't know that. I think

2958
02:48:05,720 --> 02:48:08,440
Speaker 1: that it's realistic that that's going to stop net Yahoo

2959
02:48:08,480 --> 02:48:11,280
Speaker 1: from doing the shit that net Yaho's doing. You can

2960
02:48:11,360 --> 02:48:14,680
Speaker 1: feel however you want about that. It's not irrational to

2961
02:48:14,760 --> 02:48:17,680
Speaker 1: be like, boy, I don't think this is real, but

2962
02:48:17,959 --> 02:48:20,600
Speaker 1: like I wish it was, right, So you can feel

2963
02:48:20,640 --> 02:48:23,600
Speaker 1: however you want about this guy. Wanting, you know, thousands

2964
02:48:23,640 --> 02:48:27,040
Speaker 1: of US soldiers to get murdered. I get both, Like,

2965
02:48:27,760 --> 02:48:30,640
Speaker 1: I don't think that realistically, anything the hoo thies are

2966
02:48:30,720 --> 02:48:34,000
Speaker 1: doing is going to stop what Israel's doing at this point,

2967
02:48:34,480 --> 02:48:38,600
Speaker 1: But I also understand just desperately wanting some violence to

2968
02:48:38,680 --> 02:48:41,280
Speaker 1: come down on the other side of this thing after

2969
02:48:41,440 --> 02:48:44,640
Speaker 1: months of watching videos of the slaughter in Gaza. You know,

2970
02:48:44,800 --> 02:48:46,400
Speaker 1: especially as you have you.

2971
02:48:46,440 --> 02:48:50,240
Speaker 4: Have like Nikki Haley signing right bombs that right and

2972
02:48:50,360 --> 02:48:52,520
Speaker 4: is sending over like come on, Like yeah, no, I

2973
02:48:52,760 --> 02:48:55,320
Speaker 4: could understand the emotional like, yeah, braw.

2974
02:48:55,800 --> 02:48:58,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't speak to the best angels of our nature, right,

2975
02:48:58,840 --> 02:49:02,240
Speaker 1: because you're what you're thinking, you're hoping for huge amounts

2976
02:49:02,240 --> 02:49:04,840
Speaker 1: of human death either way. But like, I get it,

2977
02:49:05,160 --> 02:49:07,720
Speaker 1: and it's not irrational, right, Saying there's no way this

2978
02:49:07,920 --> 02:49:09,440
Speaker 1: is real, but I wish it was is not an

2979
02:49:09,480 --> 02:49:12,920
Speaker 1: irrational feeling, right. You can contrast that to the posts

2980
02:49:13,040 --> 02:49:17,720
Speaker 1: of independent journalists and newsgrifter Richard Medhurst with four hundred

2981
02:49:17,760 --> 02:49:21,000
Speaker 1: and eighteen thousand followers, who posted this on June second,

2982
02:49:21,480 --> 02:49:23,480
Speaker 1: Jim instruct the best ship in the US Navy with

2983
02:49:23,520 --> 02:49:25,640
Speaker 1: ballistic and cruise missiles. The ship is fleeing, and the

2984
02:49:25,720 --> 02:49:27,840
Speaker 1: Captain of the us S Eisenhower, tried to do damage

2985
02:49:27,840 --> 02:49:29,800
Speaker 1: control by posting a video of the deck on Twitter,

2986
02:49:30,040 --> 02:49:32,560
Speaker 1: But it's an old Instagram reel from thirteen weeks ago.

2987
02:49:32,760 --> 02:49:36,200
Speaker 1: Left Yemen never lie, and.

2988
02:49:36,320 --> 02:49:38,720
Speaker 4: This is just an alternate reality that they've entered into.

2989
02:49:38,800 --> 02:49:43,680
Speaker 1: Now, yes, yes, you have. You have departed reality in

2990
02:49:44,240 --> 02:49:47,480
Speaker 1: favor of one that you are crafting because it's it's

2991
02:49:47,520 --> 02:49:50,600
Speaker 1: more comforting than the one in which nothing seems to

2992
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:53,879
Speaker 1: be able to actually alter the course of violence in Gaza, right,

2993
02:49:54,320 --> 02:49:58,040
Speaker 1: So you're just deciding to believe in something else. Now,

2994
02:49:58,160 --> 02:50:01,360
Speaker 1: Community notes flagged this post, but it still has something

2995
02:50:01,400 --> 02:50:03,200
Speaker 1: like three hundred and fifty thousand views and more than

2996
02:50:03,240 --> 02:50:07,040
Speaker 1: four hundred thousand likes. Medhurst tis one hundred thousand or

2997
02:50:07,080 --> 02:50:11,400
Speaker 1: four thousand likes, sorry, four hundred and eighteen thousand followers,

2998
02:50:11,440 --> 02:50:13,720
Speaker 1: four thousand likes on the post I see four thousand

2999
02:50:13,760 --> 02:50:18,360
Speaker 1: likes is still a mess? Is a sizable super large number? Yeah.

3000
02:50:18,879 --> 02:50:21,680
Speaker 1: Medhurst has leaned hard into repeating claims that the Houthis

3001
02:50:21,720 --> 02:50:24,240
Speaker 1: have sunk or damaged the Eisenhower and another post with

3002
02:50:24,360 --> 02:50:26,800
Speaker 1: six thousand likes in eight hundred and twenty one thousand views.

3003
02:50:27,040 --> 02:50:29,000
Speaker 1: He describes the IKE as being hit with ballistic and

3004
02:50:29,040 --> 02:50:31,840
Speaker 1: cruise missiles and add, yeomen never lie in their press breathings,

3005
02:50:31,920 --> 02:50:34,920
Speaker 1: so I'm inclined to believe them. In one post, heam,

3006
02:50:35,480 --> 02:50:38,720
Speaker 1: I know it's In one post, he notes that the

3007
02:50:38,800 --> 02:50:41,440
Speaker 1: Houthy's recently shot down an m Q nine Reaper drone,

3008
02:50:41,480 --> 02:50:43,680
Speaker 1: which did happen, and claims the US won't admit to

3009
02:50:43,760 --> 02:50:47,680
Speaker 1: that either, and like, I haven't run into the US

3010
02:50:47,760 --> 02:50:50,880
Speaker 1: denying that this happened. There's three clear cases of m

3011
02:50:50,959 --> 02:50:53,720
Speaker 1: Q nine's being shot down last month alone, right, Like,

3012
02:50:53,800 --> 02:50:56,119
Speaker 1: we actually know a lot about this, which is part

3013
02:50:56,120 --> 02:50:58,320
Speaker 1: of why I don't believe the Eisenhower shot down, As

3014
02:50:58,360 --> 02:51:02,120
Speaker 1: they the Houthis were able to prove quite readily that

3015
02:51:02,200 --> 02:51:04,879
Speaker 1: they had shot down the MQ nine's. I have seen

3016
02:51:04,959 --> 02:51:08,240
Speaker 1: no proof that the Eisenhower's been hit, right, and this

3017
02:51:08,400 --> 02:51:10,360
Speaker 1: isn't just a case where like the Houthis should be

3018
02:51:10,400 --> 02:51:13,000
Speaker 1: able to provide some actual proof if they'd done this.

3019
02:51:13,400 --> 02:51:16,720
Speaker 1: The Eisenhower is a floating city with a population of thousands.

3020
02:51:17,000 --> 02:51:18,840
Speaker 1: There's like seven or eight thousand people. I think at

3021
02:51:18,920 --> 02:51:21,160
Speaker 1: least in the whole strike group. I will con see

3022
02:51:21,200 --> 02:51:23,640
Speaker 1: that the military could probably keep a lid on an

3023
02:51:23,680 --> 02:51:27,480
Speaker 1: attack against the Eisenhower, and might even temporarily be able

3024
02:51:27,520 --> 02:51:29,840
Speaker 1: to hide the fact that it had suffered minor damage.

3025
02:51:30,120 --> 02:51:33,080
Speaker 1: But you're not keeping any anything significant secret for the

3026
02:51:33,160 --> 02:51:35,720
Speaker 1: long haul, right, Like you just you can't. You can't

3027
02:51:35,840 --> 02:51:39,000
Speaker 1: keep secrets like that. There's too many people. They're going

3028
02:51:39,080 --> 02:51:41,440
Speaker 1: to talk to their families. If the boat goes down

3029
02:51:41,480 --> 02:51:44,280
Speaker 1: with thousands of people on board, family members are going

3030
02:51:44,320 --> 02:51:45,879
Speaker 1: to be like, boy, none of us have heard from

3031
02:51:45,920 --> 02:51:47,840
Speaker 1: our loved ones in a while. Right.

3032
02:51:47,959 --> 02:51:50,840
Speaker 4: Also think also like the government would say something and

3033
02:51:51,000 --> 02:51:54,320
Speaker 4: like start like a massive batch of retaliation, Like it's

3034
02:51:54,360 --> 02:51:56,560
Speaker 4: not like America would be like, oh, sh.

3035
02:51:56,720 --> 02:51:59,240
Speaker 1: Quiet, we just have to pretend this didn't happen.

3036
02:51:59,520 --> 02:52:02,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're gonna be talking about a NonStop for the

3037
02:52:02,440 --> 02:52:04,320
Speaker 4: past like three months.

3038
02:52:04,520 --> 02:52:06,640
Speaker 1: We sent the Eisenhower and its crew to a nice

3039
02:52:06,720 --> 02:52:13,120
Speaker 1: farm up state exactly. So why would the Houthies this

3040
02:52:13,240 --> 02:52:15,440
Speaker 1: is a question to ask, Then why would the Hoothies

3041
02:52:15,480 --> 02:52:18,280
Speaker 1: make fake claims that are obviously fake claims about striking

3042
02:52:18,320 --> 02:52:19,000
Speaker 1: the Eisenhower?

3043
02:52:19,200 --> 02:52:19,320
Speaker 7: Right?

3044
02:52:19,680 --> 02:52:21,520
Speaker 1: And I think it's because at this point, for a

3045
02:52:21,560 --> 02:52:25,039
Speaker 1: sizeable chunk of people, fake Hoothy attacks on US assets

3046
02:52:25,080 --> 02:52:27,200
Speaker 1: are just as good as real ones. And I think

3047
02:52:27,280 --> 02:52:30,120
Speaker 1: there are people within the leadership cadres of the Houthis

3048
02:52:30,240 --> 02:52:33,520
Speaker 1: who know that perfectly well. It is entirely possible that

3049
02:52:33,560 --> 02:52:36,640
Speaker 1: the Hoothies find themselves low on munitions after months of

3050
02:52:36,760 --> 02:52:40,720
Speaker 1: conflict with the US, and somebody smart realized, like, what

3051
02:52:40,840 --> 02:52:43,040
Speaker 1: if we just say we shot at them, right, It'll

3052
02:52:43,120 --> 02:52:45,760
Speaker 1: have the same propaganda impact and we won't have a

3053
02:52:45,879 --> 02:52:46,600
Speaker 1: waste a missile.

3054
02:52:46,760 --> 02:52:46,880
Speaker 7: Right.

3055
02:52:47,640 --> 02:52:49,600
Speaker 4: No, you'll still be able to talk about it on

3056
02:52:49,720 --> 02:52:53,600
Speaker 4: your Los Angeles Twitch stream to your hundreds of thousands

3057
02:52:53,640 --> 02:52:54,880
Speaker 4: of followers.

3058
02:52:54,879 --> 02:53:00,240
Speaker 1: Right, the ongoing gendescide, If that's what actually is happening here,

3059
02:53:00,879 --> 02:53:03,080
Speaker 1: I could see that as a reasonably cunning move. You know,

3060
02:53:03,160 --> 02:53:05,879
Speaker 1: the ongoing genocide and gaza the other inability of protest

3061
02:53:06,000 --> 02:53:09,120
Speaker 1: or armed resistance to change it in any way leads

3062
02:53:09,200 --> 02:53:12,720
Speaker 1: some people to a kind of mad desperation. In this desperation,

3063
02:53:12,800 --> 02:53:14,760
Speaker 1: the Houthis have become a symbol of hope to many

3064
02:53:14,800 --> 02:53:16,920
Speaker 1: people for the simple reason that they seem to be

3065
02:53:17,040 --> 02:53:21,000
Speaker 1: capable of taking action against the forces protecting Israel as

3066
02:53:21,080 --> 02:53:24,199
Speaker 1: Israel commits war crimes. Now, the reality of the situation

3067
02:53:24,320 --> 02:53:26,680
Speaker 1: is that the Huthis themselves have committed their share of

3068
02:53:26,760 --> 02:53:29,000
Speaker 1: war crimes, some of which are remniscent of the very

3069
02:53:29,040 --> 02:53:31,920
Speaker 1: crimes committed by Israel. In December of twenty fourteen, the

3070
02:53:31,959 --> 02:53:35,760
Speaker 1: Houthis laid siege to Yemen's second city, Ties, leading to

3071
02:53:35,840 --> 02:53:39,280
Speaker 1: a humanitarian catastrophe, as this article from The Guardian lays out.

3072
02:53:39,560 --> 02:53:42,920
Speaker 1: Quote sincerely April, when the resistance, an alliance of local

3073
02:53:43,000 --> 02:53:45,720
Speaker 1: forces dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, fought off the Houthi's

3074
02:53:45,760 --> 02:53:48,680
Speaker 1: attempt to control the city. The militia retaliated by cutting

3075
02:53:48,720 --> 02:53:51,280
Speaker 1: off roads, preventing food and medical aid from getting in.

3076
02:53:51,720 --> 02:53:54,520
Speaker 1: Access is only allowed through a single checkpoint dubbed the

3077
02:53:54,640 --> 02:53:57,720
Speaker 1: Rapha Crossing by the residents after its more famous namesake

3078
02:53:57,800 --> 02:54:01,119
Speaker 1: on the Egypt Gaza border. Every morning, long queues form

3079
02:54:01,200 --> 02:54:03,480
Speaker 1: outside the crossing by those wanting to enter the city

3080
02:54:03,720 --> 02:54:07,520
Speaker 1: hoothy malicious search and confiscate medicine, cooking, gas, cigarettes, bottled

3081
02:54:07,560 --> 02:54:10,120
Speaker 1: water or anything more than a small shopping bag of food.

3082
02:54:10,560 --> 02:54:13,200
Speaker 1: In order to survive. The city has for months been

3083
02:54:13,280 --> 02:54:15,440
Speaker 1: relying on groups of young boys and long trains of

3084
02:54:15,480 --> 02:54:18,640
Speaker 1: donkeys to bring its supplies via a long and arduous

3085
02:54:18,720 --> 02:54:21,560
Speaker 1: journey through the mountains, but donkeys alone can hardly fulfill

3086
02:54:21,600 --> 02:54:23,760
Speaker 1: the needs of the city. Medicine and food have all

3087
02:54:23,840 --> 02:54:25,760
Speaker 1: but disappeared from the market, and the prices of what

3088
02:54:25,840 --> 02:54:28,160
Speaker 1: are left have jumped in the last few months, pushing

3089
02:54:28,240 --> 02:54:32,080
Speaker 1: most of the population below the poverty line. Now the

3090
02:54:32,160 --> 02:54:36,280
Speaker 1: comparison between Tis and Gaza are striking, right, Like the

3091
02:54:36,360 --> 02:54:38,000
Speaker 1: crossing was called Rafa you know.

3092
02:54:38,160 --> 02:54:40,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, they literally named it after the crossing.

3093
02:54:41,400 --> 02:54:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, you hear a lot of the

3094
02:54:43,320 --> 02:54:46,040
Speaker 1: same stories, like the hospitals basically were out of you know,

3095
02:54:46,160 --> 02:54:48,440
Speaker 1: anything to actually treat the injured. One of the one

3096
02:54:48,520 --> 02:54:50,800
Speaker 1: doctor at one of the two functioning hospitals in the

3097
02:54:50,840 --> 02:54:53,760
Speaker 1: city told the Guardian, we can't do operations, we can't

3098
02:54:53,760 --> 02:54:55,960
Speaker 1: put people in intensive care. We can only patch wounds

3099
02:54:56,000 --> 02:54:58,879
Speaker 1: and tell the patient you are welcome to die here. Now,

3100
02:54:59,080 --> 02:55:00,800
Speaker 1: I want to be clear here. The other side in

3101
02:55:00,840 --> 02:55:05,240
Speaker 1: this conflict was inarguably even worse. The Saudi led coalition,

3102
02:55:05,440 --> 02:55:08,480
Speaker 1: using US weaponry, put the whole country in a state

3103
02:55:08,560 --> 02:55:13,320
Speaker 1: of siege that led to catastrophic famines and situations very

3104
02:55:13,400 --> 02:55:15,520
Speaker 1: similar and in some cases worse than what the Huthi

3105
02:55:15,640 --> 02:55:20,040
Speaker 1: did toties right, like this is the this I mean,

3106
02:55:20,480 --> 02:55:24,400
Speaker 1: it's war right. This is like unspeakable suffering compounding on

3107
02:55:24,560 --> 02:55:25,600
Speaker 1: unspeakable suffering.

3108
02:55:25,800 --> 02:55:25,920
Speaker 10: Right.

3109
02:55:27,200 --> 02:55:30,000
Speaker 1: You've probably heard that old saying when you stare into

3110
02:55:30,040 --> 02:55:33,199
Speaker 1: the abyss, the abyss stares back. And there's a corollary

3111
02:55:33,320 --> 02:55:35,320
Speaker 1: to that statement that I think is relevant to some

3112
02:55:35,440 --> 02:55:37,640
Speaker 1: of the fantasies that some people on the left have

3113
02:55:37,920 --> 02:55:41,280
Speaker 1: about the hoothies. When you start giving yourself up to

3114
02:55:41,520 --> 02:55:46,400
Speaker 1: false realities, eventually you can lose yourself entirely. And we're

3115
02:55:46,440 --> 02:55:49,320
Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about that, but first lose

3116
02:55:49,360 --> 02:56:05,760
Speaker 1: yourself to these products. We're back. So people like Medhurst,

3117
02:56:05,959 --> 02:56:08,760
Speaker 1: you know, postliked by these guys, they aren't meant to

3118
02:56:08,879 --> 02:56:13,080
Speaker 1: inform people about the real world. Medhurst's fans, the people

3119
02:56:13,120 --> 02:56:16,440
Speaker 1: who take him seriously, have departed reality in favor of

3120
02:56:16,480 --> 02:56:19,680
Speaker 1: a fantasy, because that fantasy world is the only place

3121
02:56:19,720 --> 02:56:23,320
Speaker 1: in which victory feels possible. There's a term that you

3122
02:56:23,400 --> 02:56:25,360
Speaker 1: and I talk about a lot garrison, coined by the

3123
02:56:25,400 --> 02:56:28,280
Speaker 1: author Robert Anton Wilson, that I think is useful in

3124
02:56:28,400 --> 02:56:31,480
Speaker 1: dealing with situations like this, and that term is reality tunnel.

3125
02:56:31,959 --> 02:56:35,039
Speaker 1: The concept is complex and explanations of it tend towards long,

3126
02:56:35,160 --> 02:56:37,040
Speaker 1: but the basic idea is that we in the modern

3127
02:56:37,080 --> 02:56:40,400
Speaker 1: world are all constantly flooded by information from our senses

3128
02:56:40,440 --> 02:56:43,160
Speaker 1: and from the different information delivery devices that we filled

3129
02:56:43,160 --> 02:56:45,440
Speaker 1: our world with. In order to function, we have to

3130
02:56:45,560 --> 02:56:48,640
Speaker 1: triage that information, to pare it away until we get

3131
02:56:48,720 --> 02:56:51,520
Speaker 1: to a reality that we can live inside, the fact

3132
02:56:51,560 --> 02:56:54,240
Speaker 1: that human beings can and perhaps inherently do. This is

3133
02:56:54,360 --> 02:56:57,520
Speaker 1: not necessarily bad, and in fact, I might argue that

3134
02:56:57,600 --> 02:57:00,959
Speaker 1: without the ability to choose and flip between different realities

3135
02:57:01,000 --> 02:57:04,560
Speaker 1: to change the channel, as Wilson put it, positive progress

3136
02:57:04,640 --> 02:57:07,320
Speaker 1: is impossible. I found this explained well in an essay

3137
02:57:07,360 --> 02:57:11,280
Speaker 1: on Wilson's work by Mikola Bilokonski. Quote, we can slide

3138
02:57:11,320 --> 02:57:14,080
Speaker 1: between reality tunnels by consciously choosing to pay attention to

3139
02:57:14,160 --> 02:57:16,800
Speaker 1: things we might normally ignore. It's hard at first, but

3140
02:57:16,840 --> 02:57:19,280
Speaker 1: as a skill that we can develop with practice. Train

3141
02:57:19,360 --> 02:57:21,320
Speaker 1: yourself to pay more attention to the emotions of the

3142
02:57:21,320 --> 02:57:23,720
Speaker 1: people you're speaking to, for instance, and you'll be surprised

3143
02:57:23,760 --> 02:57:26,240
Speaker 1: at how much richer the world gets. Train yourself to

3144
02:57:26,240 --> 02:57:29,560
Speaker 1: pay attention to your caloric intake and eating fundamentally changes.

3145
02:57:29,920 --> 02:57:32,560
Speaker 1: Train yourself to hear the voices of minorities, and suddenly

3146
02:57:32,640 --> 02:57:38,080
Speaker 1: you see racism and sexism everywhere. Now, those other reality

3147
02:57:38,120 --> 02:57:41,040
Speaker 1: tunnels like that you can key yourself in on are

3148
02:57:41,120 --> 02:57:44,080
Speaker 1: always there. They always exist, right, You just had to

3149
02:57:44,160 --> 02:57:47,480
Speaker 1: actually learn the filters that you existed within in order

3150
02:57:47,560 --> 02:57:48,400
Speaker 1: to access them.

3151
02:57:48,480 --> 02:57:51,200
Speaker 4: You know, whether or not you're tuned in doesn't mean

3152
02:57:51,320 --> 02:57:52,920
Speaker 4: like they just don't exist.

3153
02:57:53,000 --> 02:57:57,040
Speaker 1: They're still there. Yeah. Yeah, So again the constant you know,

3154
02:57:57,120 --> 02:57:59,280
Speaker 1: the fact that people can like pick and choose which

3155
02:57:59,360 --> 02:58:02,400
Speaker 1: reality chair can change the channel, so to speak, isn't

3156
02:58:02,480 --> 02:58:05,640
Speaker 1: necessarily bad and in fact is part of you know,

3157
02:58:05,879 --> 02:58:09,520
Speaker 1: necessary positive progress. But some people don't want to hop

3158
02:58:09,600 --> 02:58:13,840
Speaker 1: between tunnels and explore the dazzling variety of realities that exist.

3159
02:58:14,280 --> 02:58:16,199
Speaker 1: They want to pick a tunnel in which they feel

3160
02:58:16,280 --> 02:58:19,080
Speaker 1: comfortable and then burrow so deep into it that no

3161
02:58:19,200 --> 02:58:21,920
Speaker 1: other realities can find them. I want you to think

3162
02:58:21,959 --> 02:58:24,840
Speaker 1: of one of my favorite recent Trump World grifts, right,

3163
02:58:25,040 --> 02:58:27,600
Speaker 1: is these kind of this company that started putting out

3164
02:58:27,600 --> 02:58:30,680
Speaker 1: these like ads with an obvious AI Donald Trump or

3165
02:58:30,760 --> 02:58:33,640
Speaker 1: Elon Musk voice where they're like, Trump is going to

3166
02:58:33,760 --> 02:58:36,360
Speaker 1: change the monetary system, and if you buy these like

3167
02:58:36,600 --> 02:58:41,000
Speaker 1: trump Bucks debit card things or fake checks, he's going

3168
02:58:41,080 --> 02:58:42,760
Speaker 1: to like when he changes it, they'll be worth a

3169
02:58:43,120 --> 02:58:45,120
Speaker 1: ten thousand times what you put in. So if you

3170
02:58:45,160 --> 02:58:46,800
Speaker 1: put in two or three thousand dollars worth of this,

3171
02:58:47,000 --> 02:58:50,040
Speaker 1: you'll be rich. He's doing this to reward his loyal fans.

3172
02:58:50,280 --> 02:58:52,879
Speaker 1: He's going to like he's gonna fix everything and you'll

3173
02:58:52,959 --> 02:58:55,879
Speaker 1: finally be rich, right, you know you deserve to be rich, right,

3174
02:58:56,320 --> 02:58:59,760
Speaker 1: And a bunch of people bought these like fake promisary

3175
02:58:59,840 --> 02:59:01,680
Speaker 1: now and then like went to Bank of America to

3176
02:59:01,760 --> 02:59:03,840
Speaker 1: cash them in, and the bank was like, well, no,

3177
02:59:04,360 --> 02:59:07,320
Speaker 1: that's not this, this isn't real this, this is nothing

3178
02:59:07,360 --> 02:59:10,240
Speaker 1: at all, right, and you know, these people got fleeced.

3179
02:59:10,280 --> 02:59:11,720
Speaker 1: And one way to look at the people who got

3180
02:59:11,760 --> 02:59:14,640
Speaker 1: fleeced is like, well they're dumb, right, These people are stupid.

3181
02:59:14,720 --> 02:59:16,640
Speaker 1: You know, they did a stupid thing. They believed something

3182
02:59:16,680 --> 02:59:20,360
Speaker 1: that was obviously fake, and you can you can take

3183
02:59:20,480 --> 02:59:22,880
Speaker 1: that out of their story if you want. I don't

3184
02:59:22,959 --> 02:59:27,760
Speaker 1: think that's helpful, though. The reality is that these people

3185
02:59:27,840 --> 02:59:31,600
Speaker 1: represent a cautionary tale. They didn't start out believing that

3186
02:59:31,720 --> 02:59:34,879
Speaker 1: the guy from the Apprentice was their messiah. Their break

3187
02:59:34,959 --> 02:59:39,240
Speaker 1: from consensus reality began years or decades earlier, and it's

3188
02:59:39,280 --> 02:59:41,640
Speaker 1: going to be different for every individual person. When I

3189
02:59:41,680 --> 02:59:44,280
Speaker 1: think about my own family members who came to believe

3190
02:59:44,560 --> 02:59:48,800
Speaker 1: pretty unhinged things that you know, figures within the Republican

3191
02:59:48,840 --> 02:59:51,760
Speaker 1: Party or Trump himself told them. I tend to trace

3192
02:59:52,160 --> 02:59:56,080
Speaker 1: their break from reality back to well back to the

3193
02:59:56,160 --> 02:59:59,240
Speaker 1: day when the calming, charismatic voice of Ronald Reagan said

3194
02:59:59,320 --> 03:00:02,320
Speaker 1: this about the Iran Contraus scandal, a deal in which

3195
03:00:02,360 --> 03:00:06,120
Speaker 1: his administration gave Iron weapons in exchange for hostages. And

3196
03:00:06,240 --> 03:00:09,000
Speaker 1: this is Reagan. A few months ago, I told the

3197
03:00:09,040 --> 03:00:11,960
Speaker 1: American people, I did not trade arms for hostages. My

3198
03:00:12,120 --> 03:00:14,600
Speaker 1: heart and my best intentions tell me that's true, but

3199
03:00:14,720 --> 03:00:16,160
Speaker 1: the facts and the evidence tell me.

3200
03:00:16,200 --> 03:00:16,560
Speaker 9: It is not.

3201
03:00:17,440 --> 03:00:22,520
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think that line is an important moment

3202
03:00:22,800 --> 03:00:27,320
Speaker 1: in the shattering of what we might call reality, consensus, reality, right,

3203
03:00:27,680 --> 03:00:31,080
Speaker 1: The undeniable, actual truth is that Ronald Reagan and many

3204
03:00:31,120 --> 03:00:33,920
Speaker 1: members of his administration committed high crimes and light about it.

3205
03:00:34,320 --> 03:00:37,480
Speaker 1: But Reagan's supporters, his fans, people like my parents, loved

3206
03:00:37,560 --> 03:00:40,880
Speaker 1: him too much to accept this, and old Ronnie offered

3207
03:00:40,920 --> 03:00:43,640
Speaker 1: them a way out, ignore the facts and the evidence

3208
03:00:43,840 --> 03:00:46,480
Speaker 1: and embraced the deeper truth of his heart and his

3209
03:00:46,640 --> 03:00:50,040
Speaker 1: best intentions. And in that moment, I think that's where

3210
03:00:50,080 --> 03:00:52,440
Speaker 1: a lot of Americans, who are now in an even

3211
03:00:52,480 --> 03:00:56,560
Speaker 1: more unhinged place, started burrowing down and started tunneling away

3212
03:00:56,600 --> 03:00:58,680
Speaker 1: from their friends and family and towards the heart of

3213
03:00:58,800 --> 03:01:02,120
Speaker 1: something dark. As the years went on, the consequences of

3214
03:01:02,160 --> 03:01:05,960
Speaker 1: many Reagan era economic and social policies became impossible to ignore.

3215
03:01:06,400 --> 03:01:09,840
Speaker 1: No wealth trickled down, Mourning did not return to America.

3216
03:01:10,240 --> 03:01:12,640
Speaker 1: The promise of the Internet boom yielded to the dot

3217
03:01:12,720 --> 03:01:15,800
Speaker 1: com bubble bursting September eleventh sobered us up from the

3218
03:01:15,840 --> 03:01:18,879
Speaker 1: hallucination of permanent victory. After the end of the Cold War,

3219
03:01:19,240 --> 03:01:22,400
Speaker 1: the housing market crashed, the hideous reality of climate change

3220
03:01:22,400 --> 03:01:25,840
Speaker 1: became unavoidable, the promise of a bright future faded, and

3221
03:01:25,920 --> 03:01:29,280
Speaker 1: people buried themselves deeper in fantasies to avoid oblique and

3222
03:01:29,440 --> 03:01:34,039
Speaker 1: empty horizon. And all throughout this the Left prided itself

3223
03:01:34,160 --> 03:01:37,520
Speaker 1: on a sort of logical sobriety, a willingness to stare

3224
03:01:37,600 --> 03:01:40,480
Speaker 1: into the abyss, to accept the reality of our dire moment,

3225
03:01:40,760 --> 03:01:44,160
Speaker 1: and to propose radical solutions. Yet one by one, the

3226
03:01:44,240 --> 03:01:47,840
Speaker 1: different protest movements put out by the left flopped and fizzled.

3227
03:01:48,120 --> 03:01:51,600
Speaker 1: Promising organizers and ideological leaders were revealed as frauds or

3228
03:01:51,640 --> 03:01:56,160
Speaker 1: became corrupted by the system. Capitalism failed to fall or reform,

3229
03:01:56,840 --> 03:01:59,920
Speaker 1: and rather than confront the dire complex reality that leaves

3230
03:02:00,160 --> 03:02:04,240
Speaker 1: us in, increasing numbers of leftists found alternative realities, served

3231
03:02:04,360 --> 03:02:08,720
Speaker 1: eagerly by an alliance of conman and paid propagandists. Now,

3232
03:02:09,720 --> 03:02:13,240
Speaker 1: leftists have always been just as vulnerable to vicious fantasy

3233
03:02:13,320 --> 03:02:16,760
Speaker 1: as conservatives. This has proven well in the last century.

3234
03:02:16,800 --> 03:02:20,439
Speaker 1: There's a case of a Marxist academic named Malcolm Caldwell,

3235
03:02:20,800 --> 03:02:23,760
Speaker 1: who I think is which I think is valuable depending

3236
03:02:23,800 --> 03:02:27,800
Speaker 1: on who you talk to about Caldwell. He's the Scottish academic.

3237
03:02:27,920 --> 03:02:32,400
Speaker 1: He was a college professor, apparently a pretty good economist,

3238
03:02:32,920 --> 03:02:38,560
Speaker 1: and he also had this weird thing for agrarian communist movements,

3239
03:02:38,680 --> 03:02:40,840
Speaker 1: which he thought were He believed that there was this

3240
03:02:41,000 --> 03:02:44,080
Speaker 1: like massive global famine coming and he believed that these

3241
03:02:44,240 --> 03:02:47,960
Speaker 1: like back to the Land Marxist movements sweeping Southeast Asia

3242
03:02:48,000 --> 03:02:50,960
Speaker 1: where the only way forward for a lot of humanity.

3243
03:02:51,040 --> 03:02:53,320
Speaker 1: He was this like third worldist. A lot of his

3244
03:02:53,440 --> 03:02:55,800
Speaker 1: belief was kind of centering that, you know, the United

3245
03:02:55,840 --> 03:02:58,879
Speaker 1: States was the source of all evil in the world effectively,

3246
03:02:59,320 --> 03:03:01,520
Speaker 1: but this kind of led him to he became a

3247
03:03:01,640 --> 03:03:04,520
Speaker 1: stan of every communist state, even the ones that were

3248
03:03:04,560 --> 03:03:06,800
Speaker 1: in conflict with each other. He traveled to like North

3249
03:03:06,879 --> 03:03:09,760
Speaker 1: Korea and came back like talking about all of the

3250
03:03:09,840 --> 03:03:13,400
Speaker 1: wonderful accomplishments of Juche ideology. You know, he was in

3251
03:03:13,520 --> 03:03:15,400
Speaker 1: love with Vietnam, and he was also in love with

3252
03:03:15,560 --> 03:03:19,280
Speaker 1: Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. And that's kind of part of

3253
03:03:19,320 --> 03:03:22,039
Speaker 1: the evidence that like he had entered a reality tunnel

3254
03:03:22,080 --> 03:03:24,080
Speaker 1: that had taken him away from any kind of logical

3255
03:03:24,160 --> 03:03:28,640
Speaker 1: reality because like Cambodia and Vietnam went to war, right,

3256
03:03:28,800 --> 03:03:32,760
Speaker 1: Vietnam invaded Cambodia, Like these these two were not like

3257
03:03:33,000 --> 03:03:36,160
Speaker 1: communist fellow travelers on the same side of a conflict.

3258
03:03:36,959 --> 03:03:39,200
Speaker 1: Whenever this would get brought up to Caldwell, when he'd

3259
03:03:39,360 --> 03:03:42,280
Speaker 1: argue about, you know, Vietnam and the conflict that Vietnam

3260
03:03:42,360 --> 03:03:44,800
Speaker 1: was having with Cambodia, or he you know, people would

3261
03:03:44,800 --> 03:03:46,600
Speaker 1: try to argue with him about the realities of the

3262
03:03:46,680 --> 03:03:49,320
Speaker 1: Khmer Rouge system, he would just kind of shut down,

3263
03:03:49,720 --> 03:03:52,800
Speaker 1: like he was he was, yeah, he couldn't talk about

3264
03:03:52,840 --> 03:03:56,560
Speaker 1: it right now. Eventually, Caldwell, because he's an academic, he

3265
03:03:56,680 --> 03:03:58,760
Speaker 1: travels to a lot of these countries and you know,

3266
03:03:58,840 --> 03:04:01,040
Speaker 1: it's fine. He travels to the Ubas, he gets a

3267
03:04:01,080 --> 03:04:02,840
Speaker 1: tour there. He travels to North Korea, he gets a

3268
03:04:02,920 --> 03:04:05,720
Speaker 1: tour there, he gets a tour at Vietnam. That's all fine.

3269
03:04:06,200 --> 03:04:09,000
Speaker 1: All of those states are sane states, right, which is

3270
03:04:09,040 --> 03:04:11,400
Speaker 1: not to say that like they don't do bad things,

3271
03:04:11,480 --> 03:04:14,080
Speaker 1: but they're they're run by people who like, there's no

3272
03:04:14,200 --> 03:04:17,119
Speaker 1: benefit in us to anything bad happening to this guy

3273
03:04:17,200 --> 03:04:19,360
Speaker 1: who's out there in the West writing nice things about

3274
03:04:19,400 --> 03:04:23,360
Speaker 1: our regimes. Right, Polepot was not sane. The Khmer Rouge

3275
03:04:23,480 --> 03:04:24,120
Speaker 1: was not sane.

3276
03:04:24,760 --> 03:04:26,039
Speaker 4: So he goes to.

3277
03:04:26,160 --> 03:04:29,600
Speaker 1: Cambodia with two American journalists, one of whom had been

3278
03:04:29,760 --> 03:04:33,280
Speaker 1: in Cambodia in the years prior to the Khmer Rouge

3279
03:04:33,320 --> 03:04:36,800
Speaker 1: overthrow of the US backed government of Law Nol and

3280
03:04:36,920 --> 03:04:39,680
Speaker 1: knew the country well. And when she got there, they

3281
03:04:39,720 --> 03:04:41,640
Speaker 1: had all these arguments where he was like, I think

3282
03:04:41,680 --> 03:04:43,800
Speaker 1: the revolution is working. You know, it's not perfect, but

3283
03:04:43,879 --> 03:04:47,240
Speaker 1: it needs its time. Look at all the wonderful accomplishments already.

3284
03:04:47,480 --> 03:04:50,280
Speaker 1: And she would point out, I have been to these

3285
03:04:50,400 --> 03:04:54,680
Speaker 1: cities years ago, and there's no people anymore. All of

3286
03:04:54,800 --> 03:04:58,600
Speaker 1: the people are gone. Something is terribly wrong, and he

3287
03:04:58,800 --> 03:05:01,360
Speaker 1: just couldn't listen to her. So they're there a couple

3288
03:05:01,400 --> 03:05:04,240
Speaker 1: of weeks and he gets invited to have a meeting

3289
03:05:04,480 --> 03:05:07,360
Speaker 1: with Polepot, and you know, he has a meeting with

3290
03:05:07,480 --> 03:05:10,680
Speaker 1: him right after these journalists do, and he comes back

3291
03:05:10,720 --> 03:05:13,160
Speaker 1: from it really excited, being like, we had a great talk.

3292
03:05:13,560 --> 03:05:16,279
Speaker 1: He's such a smart man. You know, we talked about economics.

3293
03:05:16,600 --> 03:05:19,080
Speaker 1: I feel really he's invited me back next year, you know.

3294
03:05:19,160 --> 03:05:21,960
Speaker 1: And by the way, within like weeks of this, Vietnam

3295
03:05:22,040 --> 03:05:25,080
Speaker 1: invades and forces Polepot out of the capitol, right, Like

3296
03:05:25,400 --> 03:05:30,320
Speaker 1: the state of the Khmer Rouge was deeply precarious at

3297
03:05:30,360 --> 03:05:33,440
Speaker 1: this point. But he comes out super optimistic, and then

3298
03:05:33,520 --> 03:05:36,760
Speaker 1: later that night a gunman shoots him to death and

3299
03:05:36,879 --> 03:05:40,040
Speaker 1: then shoots himself to death. It is really unclear to

3300
03:05:40,120 --> 03:05:42,400
Speaker 1: this day. It's a bit of a mystery what happened.

3301
03:05:42,879 --> 03:05:47,160
Speaker 1: The most likely explanation is that the Khmer Rouge wanted

3302
03:05:47,240 --> 03:05:51,480
Speaker 1: to pin the murder of a leftist Western academic on

3303
03:05:51,680 --> 03:05:56,360
Speaker 1: Vietnam to try and generate international outrage against Vietnam who

3304
03:05:56,480 --> 03:06:01,240
Speaker 1: was about to invade. It's possible Vietnam killed him for

3305
03:06:01,480 --> 03:06:03,800
Speaker 1: but I don't really see a benefit to Vietnam and

3306
03:06:04,000 --> 03:06:08,920
Speaker 1: doing that again. They invade right after this. It seems

3307
03:06:09,040 --> 03:06:12,160
Speaker 1: like one of the journalists who was there basically was

3308
03:06:12,200 --> 03:06:13,960
Speaker 1: like a pollpot, was out of his fucking mind. Of

3309
03:06:14,040 --> 03:06:16,120
Speaker 1: course he would do this. There's no like, there's no

3310
03:06:16,240 --> 03:06:19,640
Speaker 1: trying to lay out like the rationality behind this man's actions.

3311
03:06:20,000 --> 03:06:23,959
Speaker 1: I think what's more interesting is Caldwell had been presented

3312
03:06:24,040 --> 03:06:27,960
Speaker 1: with plenty of evidence that the Khmer Rouge regime was

3313
03:06:28,040 --> 03:06:31,520
Speaker 1: deeply evil and violent, and in fact, he had published

3314
03:06:31,560 --> 03:06:34,160
Speaker 1: right before he went over there, he published an article

3315
03:06:34,320 --> 03:06:37,680
Speaker 1: about like the successes of their agrarian reforms and the

3316
03:06:38,040 --> 03:06:41,440
Speaker 1: Khmer Rouge government official that he cited in that paper

3317
03:06:41,560 --> 03:06:43,520
Speaker 1: that's like the basis of most of his claims about

3318
03:06:43,520 --> 03:06:45,560
Speaker 1: how well the reforms had worked. With it like a

3319
03:06:45,640 --> 03:06:48,840
Speaker 1: couple of weeks before he arrived in Cambodia was tortured

3320
03:06:48,920 --> 03:06:51,800
Speaker 1: to death in the S twenty one prison. Well, that's

3321
03:06:51,840 --> 03:06:54,880
Speaker 1: not a great sign, not a great sign anyway. I

3322
03:06:55,680 --> 03:06:57,440
Speaker 1: bring this guy up because I think he's maybe the

3323
03:06:57,480 --> 03:07:00,760
Speaker 1: best example of like the damage that you do to

3324
03:07:00,840 --> 03:07:05,000
Speaker 1: yourself when you let yourself fall into these tunnels. Because Caldwell,

3325
03:07:05,040 --> 03:07:06,840
Speaker 1: he's not one of these like gray zone guys. He

3326
03:07:06,879 --> 03:07:10,560
Speaker 1: didn't make a bunch of money being a stand for dictatorships.

3327
03:07:10,959 --> 03:07:13,280
Speaker 1: He seems to everyone who talked, even the people who

3328
03:07:13,360 --> 03:07:15,640
Speaker 1: thought he was like out of his mind and his

3329
03:07:15,720 --> 03:07:18,039
Speaker 1: opinions on the Khmer Rouge agree he was a really

3330
03:07:18,240 --> 03:07:20,720
Speaker 1: nice man. He was a family man, he was a

3331
03:07:20,800 --> 03:07:26,480
Speaker 1: good teacher. He just completely left reality in this one thing,

3332
03:07:26,560 --> 03:07:27,840
Speaker 1: and it led him to oblivion.

3333
03:07:28,000 --> 03:07:30,920
Speaker 4: You know, I've been thinking about a lot of similar

3334
03:07:30,959 --> 03:07:34,040
Speaker 4: stuff in terms of like what Israel's currently doing, and

3335
03:07:34,160 --> 03:07:37,640
Speaker 4: like there's so many people who ares vocally supportive every

3336
03:07:37,680 --> 03:07:41,279
Speaker 4: single action that's being done. And there's even been attacks

3337
03:07:41,400 --> 03:07:46,760
Speaker 4: where I've seen people like vietnamly uh like defend what happened.

3338
03:07:46,760 --> 03:07:49,640
Speaker 4: It's like, no, this was like a necessary strike. It

3339
03:07:49,720 --> 03:07:51,920
Speaker 4: it did for all these reasons, blah blah blah blah blah.

3340
03:07:52,360 --> 03:07:54,520
Speaker 4: Even if even if someone like net and Yahoo then

3341
03:07:54,600 --> 03:07:56,320
Speaker 4: like like comes out and says like actually, no, this

3342
03:07:56,440 --> 03:07:59,280
Speaker 4: was like quote unquote like terrible accident or whatever, there

3343
03:07:59,280 --> 03:08:03,280
Speaker 4: will still be people defending it. And like, I don't

3344
03:08:03,360 --> 03:08:07,760
Speaker 4: know if all of these people are literally like bloodthirsty,

3345
03:08:07,879 --> 03:08:10,040
Speaker 4: Like I don't know if they actually really want to

3346
03:08:10,160 --> 03:08:14,320
Speaker 4: see like everyone in Gaza killed I'm sure there's there's

3347
03:08:14,760 --> 03:08:18,360
Speaker 4: maybe some people who are like just bad, but I

3348
03:08:18,480 --> 03:08:21,920
Speaker 4: think the reality tunnel version, I think is a lot

3349
03:08:22,000 --> 03:08:25,560
Speaker 4: more useful for understanding how there's so many otherwise very

3350
03:08:25,680 --> 03:08:30,080
Speaker 4: like normal, normal people who feel totally fine about cheering

3351
03:08:30,160 --> 03:08:32,440
Speaker 4: on the actions of the State of Israel right now

3352
03:08:32,800 --> 03:08:34,920
Speaker 4: as there you know, as the death told just gets

3353
03:08:35,000 --> 03:08:37,959
Speaker 4: higher and higher and higher every single day. No, it's

3354
03:08:37,959 --> 03:08:42,520
Speaker 4: certainly been something I've I've thought about very often these

3355
03:08:42,600 --> 03:08:45,440
Speaker 4: past few months, as I as I'm sure many other

3356
03:08:45,480 --> 03:08:48,000
Speaker 4: people are, you know, both staring into the abyss on

3357
03:08:48,320 --> 03:08:50,920
Speaker 4: on Twitter dot com wherever everyone has a take. But

3358
03:08:51,000 --> 03:08:52,960
Speaker 4: then also you know, if if you're ever going out

3359
03:08:52,959 --> 03:08:54,800
Speaker 4: to any like if you're ever going into any of

3360
03:08:54,840 --> 03:08:57,280
Speaker 4: these protests, there will probably be like a group of

3361
03:08:57,360 --> 03:09:02,320
Speaker 4: Zionist counter protesters yelling something. And it's it's a really

3362
03:09:02,360 --> 03:09:03,280
Speaker 4: tricky thing to navigate.

3363
03:09:04,520 --> 03:09:08,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, like it because like, and I guess

3364
03:09:08,800 --> 03:09:12,360
Speaker 1: what the scary question to me is, like, how do

3365
03:09:12,440 --> 03:09:15,200
Speaker 1: you communicate with someone who is not living in the

3366
03:09:15,280 --> 03:09:18,760
Speaker 1: same reality, And like, totally I don't think you really can.

3367
03:09:19,320 --> 03:09:22,280
Speaker 1: I think sometimes I know sometimes because I've seen it happen.

3368
03:09:22,680 --> 03:09:26,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes people just get out of that alternate reality on

3369
03:09:26,640 --> 03:09:29,879
Speaker 1: their own. Right, that does happen, thank god, but it's

3370
03:09:29,920 --> 03:09:33,320
Speaker 1: not like reliable that it happens. And I have, you know,

3371
03:09:33,400 --> 03:09:36,840
Speaker 1: as someone who has been in this space of researching cults,

3372
03:09:36,879 --> 03:09:41,240
Speaker 1: of researching disinformation for years now, I'm not aware of

3373
03:09:41,320 --> 03:09:45,240
Speaker 1: any reliable ways to break people out of these now

3374
03:09:45,560 --> 03:09:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, these these tunnels when they get themselves in.

3375
03:09:48,440 --> 03:09:51,040
Speaker 1: And that's that's the scariest thing to me. Right, there's

3376
03:09:51,160 --> 03:09:53,440
Speaker 1: there's a number of people. I don't think it's huge

3377
03:09:53,480 --> 03:09:56,280
Speaker 1: in an electoral sense, but it's probably thousands or tens

3378
03:09:56,280 --> 03:09:58,920
Speaker 1: of thousands of people who now believe that the Eisenhower

3379
03:09:59,040 --> 03:10:01,400
Speaker 1: is either badly damned or at the bottom of the sea,

3380
03:10:01,720 --> 03:10:04,120
Speaker 1: and they will keep believing that the same way that

3381
03:10:04,320 --> 03:10:07,039
Speaker 1: like a chunk of people believe that when they look

3382
03:10:07,120 --> 03:10:10,240
Speaker 1: up and see clouds, every cloud they see is like

3383
03:10:10,959 --> 03:10:14,080
Speaker 1: poison the US government shot out into the sky using

3384
03:10:14,160 --> 03:10:17,880
Speaker 1: our secret planes to murder people with fucking whatever. I

3385
03:10:17,920 --> 03:10:20,680
Speaker 1: don't know it's anyway, or the.

3386
03:10:20,720 --> 03:10:23,879
Speaker 4: Belief that literally ever university in Gaza has been secretly

3387
03:10:23,879 --> 03:10:25,199
Speaker 4: turned into a military.

3388
03:10:24,840 --> 03:10:27,119
Speaker 1: Base, right, yeah, yeah, exactly.

3389
03:10:27,680 --> 03:10:30,600
Speaker 4: It's They're like underground tunnels. It's like, you know, it's

3390
03:10:30,600 --> 03:10:33,400
Speaker 4: all of all of all of these things that it's

3391
03:10:33,480 --> 03:10:35,440
Speaker 4: not just like a I don't know if this switch

3392
03:10:35,480 --> 03:10:38,640
Speaker 4: happens immediately. I don't think it does. They're they're there.

3393
03:10:38,959 --> 03:10:41,160
Speaker 4: There may be like a tipping point. It is often

3394
03:10:41,200 --> 03:10:44,600
Speaker 4: a very gradual shift into different reality tunnels, and then

3395
03:10:44,640 --> 03:10:48,000
Speaker 4: you don't realize how far you are in one until

3396
03:10:48,080 --> 03:10:50,160
Speaker 4: you're like fully in it. And then in that case

3397
03:10:50,240 --> 03:10:52,600
Speaker 4: you probably don't even realize yourself. People on the outside

3398
03:10:52,879 --> 03:10:55,440
Speaker 4: will point out, oh wow, this is this is uh,

3399
03:10:55,560 --> 03:10:59,520
Speaker 4: this is some interesting beliefs you have suddenly fallen into. Yeah,

3400
03:11:00,120 --> 03:11:02,320
Speaker 4: but it it doesn't, It doesn't happen overnight.

3401
03:11:02,400 --> 03:11:02,960
Speaker 7: It is it is.

3402
03:11:03,320 --> 03:11:05,440
Speaker 4: It is a slow shift in a lot of cases.

3403
03:11:06,000 --> 03:11:08,560
Speaker 4: And yeah, laying out you know, quote unquote facts and

3404
03:11:08,720 --> 03:11:11,800
Speaker 4: logic often cases does not help at all and will

3405
03:11:11,879 --> 03:11:15,240
Speaker 4: actually hurt. It will produce a backfire effect. That's not

3406
03:11:15,320 --> 03:11:17,520
Speaker 4: the case for everybody, but that is the case for

3407
03:11:17,600 --> 03:11:20,680
Speaker 4: a lot of people. And it's easy to discount, you know,

3408
03:11:20,920 --> 03:11:24,039
Speaker 4: people yelling horrible things that you at a protest. It's

3409
03:11:24,040 --> 03:11:28,320
Speaker 4: easy to discount people you know saying horrible things on Twitter.

3410
03:11:28,720 --> 03:11:31,880
Speaker 4: But it's more frustrating when it's like you're on who

3411
03:11:31,920 --> 03:11:36,360
Speaker 4: you like previously like had a good relationship with And yeah, no,

3412
03:11:36,520 --> 03:11:38,520
Speaker 4: I mean this this this kind of reminds me of like,

3413
03:11:39,280 --> 03:11:42,000
Speaker 4: you know, attempts at QAnon and deprogramming back in like

3414
03:11:42,040 --> 03:11:44,880
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, where you know, we had this influx of

3415
03:11:45,040 --> 03:11:49,360
Speaker 4: influx of older people and boomers and sometimes just like

3416
03:11:50,160 --> 03:11:52,680
Speaker 4: not super old people either also just like like moms

3417
03:11:52,720 --> 03:11:55,520
Speaker 4: in their thirties who started like leaving all this stuff

3418
03:11:56,000 --> 03:12:00,320
Speaker 4: and cutting them off from you know, contact with you

3419
03:12:00,520 --> 03:12:03,920
Speaker 4: or other people doesn't help obviously, but they can also

3420
03:12:03,920 --> 03:12:06,600
Speaker 4: be really hard to maintain, like a good relationship. And yeah,

3421
03:12:06,840 --> 03:12:09,320
Speaker 4: it's a weird balance of being able to provide a

3422
03:12:09,400 --> 03:12:12,840
Speaker 4: little bit of like compassion to someone and not completely

3423
03:12:12,840 --> 03:12:15,560
Speaker 4: cut them off while also maintaining your own personal boundaries.

3424
03:12:15,879 --> 03:12:17,680
Speaker 4: It's a really tricky thing. But in a lot of

3425
03:12:17,720 --> 03:12:20,640
Speaker 4: the cases of the QAnon stuff, all the most successful

3426
03:12:20,760 --> 03:12:22,480
Speaker 4: things that I've heard about people getting out of it,

3427
03:12:23,000 --> 03:12:27,480
Speaker 4: it did require a line, like there had to be

3428
03:12:27,600 --> 03:12:33,080
Speaker 4: some connecting thread to the person, and over time that

3429
03:12:33,280 --> 03:12:36,360
Speaker 4: thread could be pulled upon and maybe the person would

3430
03:12:36,440 --> 03:12:38,640
Speaker 4: use that thread as like as like a crutch when

3431
03:12:39,480 --> 03:12:42,920
Speaker 4: the reality so slowly started to crumble around them and

3432
03:12:43,160 --> 03:12:45,879
Speaker 4: it's really tricky and I don't have any good solutions

3433
03:12:45,920 --> 03:12:48,640
Speaker 4: for this. Nobody does. Anyone who does say they do

3434
03:12:49,400 --> 03:12:51,720
Speaker 4: is also a grifter who's lying and trying to make money.

3435
03:12:53,000 --> 03:12:55,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will, I will agree with you. The closest

3436
03:12:55,520 --> 03:12:59,480
Speaker 1: we come to there being a solution is don't cut

3437
03:12:59,560 --> 03:13:02,039
Speaker 1: off time with the person. I mean, unless you have Obviously,

3438
03:13:02,120 --> 03:13:04,200
Speaker 1: there are some things that people can come to believe

3439
03:13:04,400 --> 03:13:06,360
Speaker 1: and advocate for that you have to, like, I'm not

3440
03:13:06,440 --> 03:13:09,040
Speaker 1: saying that that that line doesn't exist. Like I had

3441
03:13:09,080 --> 03:13:11,240
Speaker 1: someone reach out about a family member who had started

3442
03:13:11,280 --> 03:13:15,440
Speaker 1: to believe some conspiracy stuff regarding extra terrestrials that was

3443
03:13:15,520 --> 03:13:18,440
Speaker 1: like obviously untrue and it worried them, And I was like, well, look,

3444
03:13:18,920 --> 03:13:20,240
Speaker 1: you know, you don't have to tell them that you

3445
03:13:20,520 --> 03:13:22,240
Speaker 1: believe them. You can say like, I don't, you know,

3446
03:13:22,720 --> 03:13:24,400
Speaker 1: really feel the same way you do about this, but

3447
03:13:24,480 --> 03:13:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm always down to talk about it, right or like

3448
03:13:26,640 --> 03:13:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, I'm always you know, here to to listen

3449
03:13:29,120 --> 03:13:30,720
Speaker 1: if you want to talk about this and let him

3450
03:13:30,760 --> 03:13:33,320
Speaker 1: know that like they have a connection still if you

3451
03:13:33,400 --> 03:13:35,240
Speaker 1: make sure that there's like still a way they can

3452
03:13:35,320 --> 03:13:37,800
Speaker 1: get out of that tunnel and back up to something

3453
03:13:37,840 --> 03:13:39,680
Speaker 1: that resembles reality. Maybe they will.

3454
03:13:40,000 --> 03:13:44,720
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, I I really wish Robert Anti Wilson

3455
03:13:45,240 --> 03:13:50,120
Speaker 4: could have seen the twenty era internet. I'm sure he

3456
03:13:50,160 --> 03:13:51,160
Speaker 4: would have had some thoughts.

3457
03:13:52,080 --> 03:13:54,440
Speaker 1: He would have had some fascinating things to write about it.

3458
03:13:54,560 --> 03:13:57,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, well this is this has been an exciting tale.

3459
03:13:57,800 --> 03:14:01,640
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, so I don't know aircraft carrier down. We

3460
03:14:01,720 --> 03:14:03,120
Speaker 1: did it, Joe, Yeah, we did it.

3461
03:14:03,240 --> 03:14:03,400
Speaker 7: Joe.

3462
03:14:03,800 --> 03:14:07,040
Speaker 1: Go destroy the USS Eisenhower in your own life, just

3463
03:14:07,200 --> 03:14:09,600
Speaker 1: like the bake Koothies. Pretend did.

3464
03:14:23,160 --> 03:14:23,440
Speaker 7: This is?

3465
03:14:23,560 --> 03:14:26,600
Speaker 14: It could happen here a daily podcast and this might

3466
03:14:26,720 --> 03:14:31,800
Speaker 14: be our annual oh my god episode. And we have

3467
03:14:32,040 --> 03:14:36,120
Speaker 14: Robert and Garet and I am also here, Sophie, Hi, Garrett.

3468
03:14:36,560 --> 03:14:39,080
Speaker 1: We've been chasing the high of the come episode for

3469
03:14:39,160 --> 03:14:42,040
Speaker 1: more than a year, so let's try this.

3470
03:14:43,120 --> 03:14:45,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, you know, last week we all got some

3471
03:14:45,680 --> 03:14:48,400
Speaker 4: really exciting news. The Rule of Law has found Donald

3472
03:14:48,440 --> 03:14:52,440
Speaker 4: Trump guilty on thirty four counts. So that's exciting. You can,

3473
03:14:52,560 --> 03:14:55,080
Speaker 4: of course google Trump Rule thirty four to learn more.

3474
03:14:55,280 --> 03:14:57,119
Speaker 4: Which was, you know, a joke. I saw a lot

3475
03:14:57,480 --> 03:15:01,959
Speaker 4: online and then I wanted to actually see what would

3476
03:15:02,000 --> 03:15:02,960
Speaker 4: happen if I did that?

3477
03:15:03,360 --> 03:15:06,160
Speaker 1: And then that turned into like that's evidence of mental illness.

3478
03:15:07,440 --> 03:15:12,080
Speaker 4: Well nobody does that, and then it turned into like

3479
03:15:12,200 --> 03:15:17,240
Speaker 4: five days of work that's further evidence. So that is

3480
03:15:17,280 --> 03:15:20,480
Speaker 4: what we're doing today. Hey, this is Gere from the Future,

3481
03:15:20,640 --> 03:15:24,200
Speaker 4: just cutting in to clarify one little aspect. When doing

3482
03:15:24,400 --> 03:15:27,200
Speaker 4: the legal review for this episode, we noticed that we

3483
03:15:27,280 --> 03:15:30,360
Speaker 4: never actually defined what rule thirty four is. Now, I

3484
03:15:30,480 --> 03:15:32,520
Speaker 4: assumed if you're listening to this podcast, you know what

3485
03:15:32,680 --> 03:15:34,680
Speaker 4: rule thirty four is, But just in case you do not,

3486
03:15:35,520 --> 03:15:39,120
Speaker 4: Rule thirty four is part of the memified Rules of

3487
03:15:39,240 --> 03:15:42,080
Speaker 4: the Internet. It originally comes from a two husand through webcomic,

3488
03:15:42,560 --> 03:15:46,200
Speaker 4: but Rule thirty four states that if it exists, there

3489
03:15:46,320 --> 03:15:49,360
Speaker 4: is porn of it, meaning that you can find porn

3490
03:15:49,560 --> 03:15:53,280
Speaker 4: of anything on the Internet, whether that be cooking, bowling

3491
03:15:53,520 --> 03:15:56,200
Speaker 4: or in this case Donald J. Trump. And you know,

3492
03:15:56,360 --> 03:15:59,720
Speaker 4: as someone who is just reviewed basically all of the

3493
03:16:00,120 --> 03:16:02,280
Speaker 4: old J. Trump pornography that I could find on the

3494
03:16:02,360 --> 03:16:04,760
Speaker 4: Internet these past five days, I did try to keep

3495
03:16:04,800 --> 03:16:07,520
Speaker 4: this episode roughly PG thirteen. We kind of cross that

3496
03:16:07,680 --> 03:16:10,360
Speaker 4: boundary a little bit. So I do think it's you know,

3497
03:16:10,600 --> 03:16:13,840
Speaker 4: probably wise to give some sort of general sexualized content

3498
03:16:13,920 --> 03:16:16,680
Speaker 4: warning here. But again I tried, I try to keep

3499
03:16:16,720 --> 03:16:20,840
Speaker 4: things as tame as I can, you know, all things considered. Anyway,

3500
03:16:20,959 --> 03:16:24,760
Speaker 4: back to the episode, I started my journey by doing

3501
03:16:24,800 --> 03:16:27,280
Speaker 4: the most obvious thing I could think of, which is

3502
03:16:27,360 --> 03:16:30,000
Speaker 4: opening a virtual PC and using Google through the tour

3503
03:16:30,080 --> 03:16:32,880
Speaker 4: browser to search Trump rule thirty four.

3504
03:16:33,760 --> 03:16:36,720
Speaker 14: No, this is already sounding like a great, great life

3505
03:16:36,800 --> 03:16:38,640
Speaker 14: choice when you have to make all of.

3506
03:16:38,760 --> 03:16:41,800
Speaker 15: Those steps to search something, well, because.

3507
03:16:41,560 --> 03:16:43,680
Speaker 4: I don't what all of my like entire computer and

3508
03:16:43,680 --> 03:16:45,720
Speaker 4: search results just to get completely fucked over for the

3509
03:16:45,800 --> 03:16:49,440
Speaker 4: next like week or two, which they might just already

3510
03:16:49,480 --> 03:16:51,520
Speaker 4: because this is all in a Google doc now, so

3511
03:16:51,680 --> 03:16:55,200
Speaker 4: it's already being mine, you know. Yeah, so I'm already

3512
03:16:55,240 --> 03:16:58,720
Speaker 4: fucked very similar to the way that we'll be discussing today.

3513
03:16:58,879 --> 03:17:03,400
Speaker 4: So wow. The first result when you google Trump rule

3514
03:17:03,480 --> 03:17:06,760
Speaker 4: thirty four is the website's rule thirty four dot xxx.

3515
03:17:06,920 --> 03:17:09,440
Speaker 4: So here we go, just straight to the source. I

3516
03:17:09,480 --> 03:17:11,600
Speaker 4: clicked on the link, and as the page loaded, I

3517
03:17:11,800 --> 03:17:14,720
Speaker 4: was shocked by what I saw, or more accurately, what

3518
03:17:14,879 --> 03:17:19,280
Speaker 4: I didn't see. There was far less Trump porn than

3519
03:17:19,360 --> 03:17:22,520
Speaker 4: what I was expecting. That not even like a single

3520
03:17:22,640 --> 03:17:24,119
Speaker 4: full page of results.

3521
03:17:24,520 --> 03:17:26,959
Speaker 1: See this is what Joe Biden's taken from.

3522
03:17:26,879 --> 03:17:30,320
Speaker 4: US only thirty one pieces of artwork came up in

3523
03:17:30,400 --> 03:17:33,440
Speaker 4: the search results, seven of which didn't even feature Donald

3524
03:17:33,440 --> 03:17:39,560
Speaker 4: Trump and only used to name. That's right, But many

3525
03:17:39,600 --> 03:17:42,760
Speaker 4: of them just didn't even have Trump and only used

3526
03:17:42,920 --> 03:17:46,160
Speaker 4: his name as like a joke tag for typically some

3527
03:17:46,320 --> 03:17:48,760
Speaker 4: sort of like furry pornography, which is can it be

3528
03:17:48,800 --> 03:17:51,000
Speaker 4: a very common trend for the rest of this episode?

3529
03:17:52,280 --> 03:17:55,920
Speaker 4: So what would you expect the first results to contain

3530
03:17:56,120 --> 03:18:02,320
Speaker 4: on the website? Rule thirty four do xxx god I Garrison.

3531
03:18:02,360 --> 03:18:07,040
Speaker 1: I don't even know. I'm imagining a lot of like

3532
03:18:07,120 --> 03:18:10,720
Speaker 1: you know how, there's those like political cartoons like yeah,

3533
03:18:10,760 --> 03:18:12,600
Speaker 1: I forget. I think the guy's name Ben Garrison. I

3534
03:18:12,640 --> 03:18:15,439
Speaker 1: think it is who like always draws Trump as like shredded.

3535
03:18:16,520 --> 03:18:18,400
Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of what I expect.

3536
03:18:18,840 --> 03:18:21,800
Speaker 4: There are certainly some of those, but the very first

3537
03:18:22,080 --> 03:18:28,120
Speaker 4: piece features a glossy rendering of Vladimir Putin's head with

3538
03:18:28,320 --> 03:18:31,280
Speaker 4: a quote. This isn't me just quoting myself. I don't

3539
03:18:31,280 --> 03:18:32,800
Speaker 4: know why I said a quote, but it's what I

3540
03:18:32,879 --> 03:18:36,240
Speaker 4: described as a penal like object looming in front, and

3541
03:18:36,320 --> 03:18:38,120
Speaker 4: I believe this is alluded to be Donald Trump.

3542
03:18:38,520 --> 03:18:41,240
Speaker 1: I feel like the listener needs to know that Garrison

3543
03:18:41,560 --> 03:18:46,440
Speaker 1: for reasons that surpass all understanding, is wearing a fitted

3544
03:18:46,520 --> 03:18:49,680
Speaker 1: shirt and tie. As they explain this to us, this

3545
03:18:49,840 --> 03:18:52,800
Speaker 1: is serious and ambiance you are not getting as a listener.

3546
03:18:53,080 --> 03:18:54,440
Speaker 4: This is a serious topic for me.

3547
03:18:54,959 --> 03:18:56,280
Speaker 1: I can see that.

3548
03:18:56,959 --> 03:19:00,320
Speaker 15: See, Like I was thinking, like Trump fucking a flag.

3549
03:19:00,959 --> 03:19:03,880
Speaker 4: But we'll get some flag action later, don't worry.

3550
03:19:04,240 --> 03:19:04,960
Speaker 15: I'm so glad.

3551
03:19:05,879 --> 03:19:07,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there we go.

3552
03:19:08,040 --> 03:19:10,039
Speaker 4: The next image is actually gonna be a little bit

3553
03:19:10,080 --> 03:19:14,920
Speaker 4: more useful in kind of forecasting some trends that we're

3554
03:19:14,959 --> 03:19:17,879
Speaker 4: gonna be going over. The next image is Donald Trump

3555
03:19:18,000 --> 03:19:20,640
Speaker 4: in the makeup and lingerie engaged in some sort of

3556
03:19:20,959 --> 03:19:23,800
Speaker 4: what I would describe as an interracial cuckhold scenario in

3557
03:19:23,840 --> 03:19:24,440
Speaker 4: the White House.

3558
03:19:25,240 --> 03:19:26,520
Speaker 1: Not the best.

3559
03:19:26,920 --> 03:19:30,199
Speaker 4: This is where we're gonna start start seeing some worrying trends.

3560
03:19:30,280 --> 03:19:33,240
Speaker 4: And part of the difficulty in this episode was like

3561
03:19:34,120 --> 03:19:36,800
Speaker 4: I can't just show everyone all this pornography. That would

3562
03:19:36,800 --> 03:19:38,840
Speaker 4: be like an HR violation. And I'm not gonna have

3563
03:19:38,920 --> 03:19:42,960
Speaker 4: the editor, you know, cut together weird poorn audio like,

3564
03:19:43,360 --> 03:19:45,959
Speaker 4: so it's it's all I often to describe this with word.

3565
03:19:46,200 --> 03:19:49,560
Speaker 4: But I did find one the tie sense the tie.

3566
03:19:49,920 --> 03:19:52,400
Speaker 4: But I did find one work around is I collected

3567
03:19:52,520 --> 03:19:56,120
Speaker 4: all of the pictures of just Trump's face, divorced from

3568
03:19:56,160 --> 03:19:58,640
Speaker 4: any other context of the image. I will actually share

3569
03:19:58,680 --> 03:20:01,240
Speaker 4: the picture of his face across some of these some

3570
03:20:01,320 --> 03:20:04,240
Speaker 4: of these artworks. Okay, so here is here is image

3571
03:20:04,320 --> 03:20:04,880
Speaker 4: number one?

3572
03:20:05,280 --> 03:20:07,800
Speaker 11: Oh honey, not great?

3573
03:20:09,120 --> 03:20:09,840
Speaker 7: Is that not like that?

3574
03:20:10,040 --> 03:20:12,800
Speaker 1: So this is not I need to qualify here. This

3575
03:20:12,920 --> 03:20:15,560
Speaker 1: is not like a political cartoon. This is somebody trying

3576
03:20:15,600 --> 03:20:16,039
Speaker 1: to get off.

3577
03:20:16,120 --> 03:20:19,000
Speaker 4: Okay, correct, Almost none of these are going to be

3578
03:20:19,080 --> 03:20:22,520
Speaker 4: political cartoons. Great, the very last one is, but all

3579
03:20:22,600 --> 03:20:24,560
Speaker 4: of these are just just regular artwork.

3580
03:20:24,920 --> 03:20:27,200
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to comment on this with

3581
03:20:27,320 --> 03:20:30,200
Speaker 1: a reference that Garrison might be several decades past your time,

3582
03:20:30,240 --> 03:20:33,600
Speaker 1: but he looks like Missus doubt fire. He looks like

3583
03:20:33,760 --> 03:20:36,200
Speaker 1: Robin Williams and drag a little bit.

3584
03:20:36,280 --> 03:20:38,280
Speaker 4: I would say Williams pulls it off a little bit better.

3585
03:20:38,879 --> 03:20:41,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean Robin Williams could pull off anything.

3586
03:20:41,920 --> 03:20:45,720
Speaker 14: I just don't think that lipstick works for Trump's complexion.

3587
03:20:46,000 --> 03:20:47,680
Speaker 4: No, And I think it's fair.

3588
03:20:47,879 --> 03:20:51,879
Speaker 1: His eyeshadows a little heavy, There's definitely some some troubling.

3589
03:20:51,920 --> 03:20:53,720
Speaker 1: Hair look good, Hair's looking great.

3590
03:20:54,320 --> 03:20:58,680
Speaker 15: Side note is the image framed behind him also Trump?

3591
03:20:59,040 --> 03:21:01,960
Speaker 1: Yes, that's him? That's Trump as some sort of Mussolini

3592
03:21:02,120 --> 03:21:05,200
Speaker 1: type figure. He's got like the Roman laurel wreath in

3593
03:21:05,280 --> 03:21:08,360
Speaker 1: his hair he does, which I believe that Trump has

3594
03:21:08,400 --> 03:21:10,840
Speaker 1: a photo like that in his house. That that actually

3595
03:21:11,920 --> 03:21:13,160
Speaker 1: all right, that could be real.

3596
03:21:13,840 --> 03:21:15,480
Speaker 15: Next one, yeah, we have to get.

3597
03:21:15,560 --> 03:21:17,560
Speaker 4: We have to get through a few of these. So

3598
03:21:18,080 --> 03:21:21,200
Speaker 4: there is there is multiple tentacle pieces, which I'm sure

3599
03:21:21,240 --> 03:21:24,640
Speaker 4: we could all all guess, right, that's that seems pretty obvious.

3600
03:21:25,080 --> 03:21:27,600
Speaker 4: There is a drawing of Putin and Trump engaged in

3601
03:21:27,640 --> 03:21:30,360
Speaker 4: what I would describe as old man yawi, which is uh,

3602
03:21:32,400 --> 03:21:36,000
Speaker 4: I'm gonna need to see that two parts, and one

3603
03:21:36,040 --> 03:21:38,879
Speaker 4: of one of these images is actually animated into a gift.

3604
03:21:39,120 --> 03:21:41,760
Speaker 1: So that's exciting competent though, you know, I actually kind

3605
03:21:41,800 --> 03:21:44,840
Speaker 1: of like those as caricatures of both men. You really get,

3606
03:21:45,440 --> 03:21:47,520
Speaker 1: you get, you get a lot of personality, and I

3607
03:21:47,760 --> 03:21:50,640
Speaker 1: do feel like that's how Vladimir Putin looks when he's coming.

3608
03:21:51,160 --> 03:21:52,240
Speaker 4: It's it's not bad.

3609
03:21:52,440 --> 03:21:59,920
Speaker 15: Uh oh, I don't think about that, Jesus Christ.

3610
03:22:01,440 --> 03:22:04,000
Speaker 4: Two fun comments underneath this one is this is actually

3611
03:22:04,080 --> 03:22:06,840
Speaker 4: so hot hashtag mega and this is why isn't to

3612
03:22:06,840 --> 03:22:07,800
Speaker 4: our president anymore?

3613
03:22:08,520 --> 03:22:09,000
Speaker 1: Perhaps?

3614
03:22:10,640 --> 03:22:12,879
Speaker 15: Oh okay.

3615
03:22:13,280 --> 03:22:15,200
Speaker 4: We also we also have Trump in a in like

3616
03:22:15,280 --> 03:22:18,640
Speaker 4: a dungeon orgy comprised of horror movie characters and female

3617
03:22:18,680 --> 03:22:23,080
Speaker 4: pop stars. An image posted the day after the election

3618
03:22:23,200 --> 03:22:26,720
Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen, there is Trump in his suit having

3619
03:22:26,800 --> 03:22:30,039
Speaker 4: sex with an anime girl wearing a Confederate battle flag

3620
03:22:30,120 --> 03:22:32,840
Speaker 4: bikini and cowboy hat. This is back dropped by a

3621
03:22:32,879 --> 03:22:35,040
Speaker 4: big American flag and the Confederate girl has a make

3622
03:22:35,120 --> 03:22:37,320
Speaker 4: America Great again butt tattoos. So getting some kind of

3623
03:22:37,320 --> 03:22:40,960
Speaker 4: conflicting messages there. But this Trump face is really not great.

3624
03:22:41,080 --> 03:22:45,200
Speaker 4: I really don't like it. See yeah, his eyes early

3625
03:22:45,240 --> 03:22:48,200
Speaker 4: squished together. In a lot of these, he's giving a

3626
03:22:48,280 --> 03:22:51,160
Speaker 4: thumbs up. I would say about half the images he's

3627
03:22:51,240 --> 03:22:53,760
Speaker 4: giving you know where that you know where that thumb's

3628
03:22:54,160 --> 03:22:56,600
Speaker 4: about to be right, Like that's part of what makes

3629
03:22:56,640 --> 03:22:57,360
Speaker 4: this unsettling.

3630
03:22:57,760 --> 03:23:00,960
Speaker 14: I really appreciate in this one that for his fingerprint,

3631
03:23:01,080 --> 03:23:03,080
Speaker 14: it's just like a spiral swirl.

3632
03:23:03,560 --> 03:23:04,720
Speaker 1: Yeah that's this.

3633
03:23:04,959 --> 03:23:07,480
Speaker 15: Yeah, not the best one, read us some comments.

3634
03:23:07,840 --> 03:23:10,600
Speaker 4: The comments for this one are quite good. Quote. I

3635
03:23:10,680 --> 03:23:13,280
Speaker 4: want to see more thick or flat blonde wife who's

3636
03:23:13,320 --> 03:23:16,039
Speaker 4: wearing a cowboy hat. I want to help make America

3637
03:23:16,160 --> 03:23:19,879
Speaker 4: to be great. This turned me on bigley and frankly.

3638
03:23:19,840 --> 03:23:23,720
Speaker 1: Okay, you've buried the lead, which is that I want

3639
03:23:23,760 --> 03:23:26,720
Speaker 1: to help America to be great was posted by hex

3640
03:23:26,840 --> 03:23:31,560
Speaker 1: Maniac undersco or poke or yeah, I'm guessing this is

3641
03:23:31,640 --> 03:23:37,200
Speaker 1: some sort of Pokemon obsessed slut witch. That's that's kind

3642
03:23:37,240 --> 03:23:41,400
Speaker 1: of many such cases. Taking this many such cases quite

3643
03:23:41,440 --> 03:23:44,560
Speaker 1: frankly made my peepy huge. And if people say this

3644
03:23:44,800 --> 03:23:47,480
Speaker 1: is not pretty, they are wrong. They are working for

3645
03:23:47,560 --> 03:23:52,240
Speaker 1: the socialist globalist democrats and Chinese government, and it's impossible

3646
03:23:52,280 --> 03:23:53,200
Speaker 1: to know if that's a joke.

3647
03:23:55,080 --> 03:23:58,000
Speaker 4: We have a really interesting one by an artist named L. G.

3648
03:23:58,560 --> 03:24:01,320
Speaker 4: L Eing. How I'm gonna say sorry.

3649
03:24:01,600 --> 03:24:03,920
Speaker 1: There's also the last post on that is why is

3650
03:24:04,040 --> 03:24:05,320
Speaker 1: the Coctus color?

3651
03:24:05,760 --> 03:24:10,640
Speaker 4: Yes, the last covet for the Confederate for the Confederate girl.

3652
03:24:10,680 --> 03:24:13,800
Speaker 4: What is why is the Coctus color? Which is quite funny,

3653
03:24:14,040 --> 03:24:17,080
Speaker 4: but we have the next one is actually a three

3654
03:24:17,200 --> 03:24:22,320
Speaker 4: panel spread. First is a Democrat donkey for Sona. The

3655
03:24:22,400 --> 03:24:26,360
Speaker 4: second part is a floating Donald Trump elephant head with

3656
03:24:26,440 --> 03:24:28,480
Speaker 4: like a propeller extending out of the top and a

3657
03:24:28,680 --> 03:24:31,120
Speaker 4: robot hand coming out of the trunk reaching for the

3658
03:24:31,240 --> 03:24:36,680
Speaker 4: donkey's ass. Lastly, the Trump elephant now has an extendable

3659
03:24:36,720 --> 03:24:41,440
Speaker 4: boxing glove trunk and is flying victoriously over the Donkey

3660
03:24:41,520 --> 03:24:42,800
Speaker 4: Democrat with a black eye.

3661
03:24:43,280 --> 03:24:46,080
Speaker 1: See they I like this more before we got into

3662
03:24:46,160 --> 03:24:47,840
Speaker 1: like domestic abuse territory.

3663
03:24:49,320 --> 03:24:51,480
Speaker 4: No, this is We're gonna get into a lot of

3664
03:24:51,520 --> 03:24:53,680
Speaker 4: problematic aspects. I will just say now if you don't

3665
03:24:53,720 --> 03:24:57,440
Speaker 4: want to listen to some kind of deeply troubling psycho

3666
03:24:57,520 --> 03:24:59,760
Speaker 4: sexual themes develop over the course, especially once we get

3667
03:24:59,760 --> 03:25:00,560
Speaker 4: to the A three section.

3668
03:25:00,760 --> 03:25:05,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, okay, sorry, we need to talk about

3669
03:25:05,080 --> 03:25:07,920
Speaker 1: this post by user trash Fucker.

3670
03:25:08,760 --> 03:25:14,080
Speaker 15: Yeah, I don't wow. Okay, So this the.

3671
03:25:14,200 --> 03:25:17,440
Speaker 4: Comment, the comment for the donkey first, so no one says,

3672
03:25:17,560 --> 03:25:20,800
Speaker 4: quote I love you and your art, though, this really

3673
03:25:20,879 --> 03:25:25,119
Speaker 4: represents how that orange treated women and how he assaulted

3674
03:25:25,200 --> 03:25:31,760
Speaker 4: them by grabbing their genitut test. Beautiful art, beautiful styles.

3675
03:25:31,920 --> 03:25:32,200
Speaker 4: Thank you.

3676
03:25:33,240 --> 03:25:36,240
Speaker 15: If you can't spell genitals, you're not allowed to grab them.

3677
03:25:36,360 --> 03:25:38,560
Speaker 15: That is the law of the world.

3678
03:25:39,720 --> 03:25:42,520
Speaker 1: Now reading that post, I want more than anything to

3679
03:25:42,600 --> 03:25:46,840
Speaker 1: have Trump comment on some of these. Oh, get him

3680
03:25:46,920 --> 03:25:50,440
Speaker 1: up on the podium talking about this beautiful art, beautiful styles.

3681
03:25:50,480 --> 03:25:54,400
Speaker 1: They're saying, it's the most beautiful donkey pornography. Anybody's ever

3682
03:25:54,520 --> 03:25:55,680
Speaker 1: made on the dark web.

3683
03:25:56,920 --> 03:25:59,840
Speaker 4: A really bad one is a cartoon of Milo Ianopolis

3684
03:26:00,560 --> 03:26:05,240
Speaker 4: having sex with a hashtag never Trump Orthodox Jew who

3685
03:26:05,320 --> 03:26:08,600
Speaker 4: might be Ben Shapiro. I can't tell please, please, please

3686
03:26:08,760 --> 03:26:12,520
Speaker 4: until he supports building the wall as then, so as

3687
03:26:12,560 --> 03:26:15,200
Speaker 4: this is happening, on the background, a yasified Trump is

3688
03:26:15,240 --> 03:26:17,760
Speaker 4: sitting on the wall giving a thumbs up. This is

3689
03:26:17,840 --> 03:26:21,800
Speaker 4: by a Nazi cartoonist named Emily Usis here is here

3690
03:26:21,920 --> 03:26:23,880
Speaker 4: is yasified Trump thumbs up?

3691
03:26:24,480 --> 03:26:25,600
Speaker 1: He sure is, man.

3692
03:26:26,200 --> 03:26:29,520
Speaker 4: The cheeks are apple. It's the only way to describe it.

3693
03:26:29,600 --> 03:26:32,720
Speaker 4: Where is my Sophie. I don't think I can show

3694
03:26:32,720 --> 03:26:35,160
Speaker 4: you that image because it'll be an HR. I can't

3695
03:26:35,160 --> 03:26:36,800
Speaker 4: show you that part because it's too there's too much

3696
03:26:36,840 --> 03:26:37,440
Speaker 4: stuff going on.

3697
03:26:38,560 --> 03:26:44,640
Speaker 15: Okay, send it to me on signal later, Sophie, that's

3698
03:26:44,720 --> 03:26:45,879
Speaker 15: an HR violation.

3699
03:26:46,080 --> 03:26:48,760
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to ask here. I don't think.

3700
03:26:49,800 --> 03:26:50,640
Speaker 4: I barely look.

3701
03:26:50,760 --> 03:26:51,280
Speaker 6: I don't.

3702
03:26:51,360 --> 03:26:53,800
Speaker 1: I don't have a great recall of the of the

3703
03:26:54,080 --> 03:26:56,800
Speaker 1: HR course we have to take every year about sexual harassment.

3704
03:26:57,040 --> 03:26:59,359
Speaker 4: But I am assure that you are both in violation

3705
03:26:59,520 --> 03:27:02,880
Speaker 4: of company that Robert, that is because you're like two

3706
03:27:02,959 --> 03:27:05,360
Speaker 4: years behind and all of your all of your man

3707
03:27:05,560 --> 03:27:06,440
Speaker 4: did work trainings.

3708
03:27:06,600 --> 03:27:10,040
Speaker 14: I get a notification in my email twice a day

3709
03:27:10,200 --> 03:27:14,720
Speaker 14: that Robert hasn't done some like legally required training.

3710
03:27:14,840 --> 03:27:17,800
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you are

3711
03:27:17,879 --> 03:27:19,600
Speaker 1: both in violation of our companies.

3712
03:27:20,320 --> 03:27:20,800
Speaker 4: Probably.

3713
03:27:21,400 --> 03:27:26,080
Speaker 15: Probably, But these Trump drawings just get keep getting more bizarre.

3714
03:27:26,320 --> 03:27:28,800
Speaker 4: There's a really good one of an octopus doytal Trump

3715
03:27:28,879 --> 03:27:31,760
Speaker 4: getting intimate with a furry fox and cat. Well, I

3716
03:27:31,800 --> 03:27:34,440
Speaker 4: do want to see that, with the comment posted under

3717
03:27:35,000 --> 03:27:39,599
Speaker 4: from what I've known, Trump doesn't support these kind of things.

3718
03:27:39,920 --> 03:27:43,600
Speaker 1: That's probably true. I don't think he'd be thrilled about that.

3719
03:27:44,760 --> 03:27:47,760
Speaker 4: So there's a few other furry ones, notably one with

3720
03:27:47,800 --> 03:27:50,640
Speaker 4: Trump grabbing the buttocks of a wildcat with some with

3721
03:27:50,879 --> 03:27:54,360
Speaker 4: very small hands, and one of a sexy Trump plowing

3722
03:27:54,440 --> 03:27:58,600
Speaker 4: down Fluttershy in front of an American flag. Oh god,

3723
03:28:00,879 --> 03:28:04,800
Speaker 4: that makes Yeah, it's bad. Quote. I guess I'm not

3724
03:28:04,879 --> 03:28:08,920
Speaker 4: the only mega bronie out there. Also quote I want

3725
03:28:09,000 --> 03:28:12,840
Speaker 4: to end my life. Sorry, also quote I want my

3726
03:28:12,959 --> 03:28:14,320
Speaker 4: life to end right.

3727
03:28:14,480 --> 03:28:20,000
Speaker 15: FU me too, honey, me too. That's that's like a

3728
03:28:20,080 --> 03:28:22,400
Speaker 15: lot of Trump back. I did not need to see

3729
03:28:22,400 --> 03:28:23,440
Speaker 15: that much of his Sophie.

3730
03:28:23,720 --> 03:28:28,600
Speaker 4: There's so much more Trump back anyway, So results for

3731
03:28:28,760 --> 03:28:31,600
Speaker 4: Donald J. Trump specifically produced a handful of new images,

3732
03:28:32,160 --> 03:28:35,000
Speaker 4: one really bad one of Trump groping a family guy character.

3733
03:28:36,440 --> 03:28:38,120
Speaker 1: But which family guy cares character?

3734
03:28:38,200 --> 03:28:40,640
Speaker 4: Garrison, I've never seen family guy. It's some woman.

3735
03:28:41,520 --> 03:28:45,840
Speaker 15: There's also okay, sorry, is that his face as a

3736
03:28:45,959 --> 03:28:46,560
Speaker 15: ball sack?

3737
03:28:47,240 --> 03:28:48,520
Speaker 4: No, that's just his face.

3738
03:28:48,600 --> 03:28:51,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, that feels like that does feel like some

3739
03:28:52,000 --> 03:28:59,199
Speaker 1: kind of like standard lib political cartoon Trump drawing covered

3740
03:28:59,320 --> 03:28:59,959
Speaker 1: bronze areas.

3741
03:29:00,959 --> 03:29:03,960
Speaker 4: It's trying to be in the family guy style. There's

3742
03:29:03,959 --> 03:29:06,040
Speaker 4: also a cartoon of a of a of a naked,

3743
03:29:06,280 --> 03:29:10,200
Speaker 4: very very buff well endowed Donald Trump flexing while holding

3744
03:29:10,240 --> 03:29:13,800
Speaker 4: a cigar, sitting in his armchair, which has the really

3745
03:29:13,879 --> 03:29:17,280
Speaker 4: good comment his thumb is on the wrong side, which

3746
03:29:17,760 --> 03:29:18,920
Speaker 4: is that that's true.

3747
03:29:19,360 --> 03:29:22,240
Speaker 15: I just wile everyone to know about. Garrison has pged

3748
03:29:22,400 --> 03:29:23,000
Speaker 15: these for us.

3749
03:29:23,080 --> 03:29:23,640
Speaker 4: They're like PG.

3750
03:29:23,800 --> 03:29:25,400
Speaker 15: Thirteen, so we're not seeing anything.

3751
03:29:26,480 --> 03:29:28,520
Speaker 4: This is this, this is all, this is all above board.

3752
03:29:28,760 --> 03:29:30,200
Speaker 4: One of the worst ones, in my opinion, is a

3753
03:29:30,600 --> 03:29:34,360
Speaker 4: very very steamy rendering of a blushing Trump looking behind

3754
03:29:34,600 --> 03:29:37,720
Speaker 4: toward the viewer with his butt pushed into the foreground.

3755
03:29:38,040 --> 03:29:40,840
Speaker 4: MEGA is written across the cheeks in the upper left

3756
03:29:40,920 --> 03:29:45,119
Speaker 4: corner is a close up of a smooth scrotum stretched

3757
03:29:45,160 --> 03:29:46,720
Speaker 4: out hole Garrison.

3758
03:29:47,000 --> 03:29:49,400
Speaker 1: When it comes to HR violations, I feel like you

3759
03:29:49,480 --> 03:29:52,520
Speaker 1: can't say stretched out whole. I think that's forbidden on

3760
03:29:52,640 --> 03:29:56,039
Speaker 1: a company call. I don't think you're allowed to say tried.

3761
03:29:55,800 --> 03:29:58,280
Speaker 4: To really turn the script into like the most like

3762
03:29:58,879 --> 03:30:02,119
Speaker 4: academic word I can. There are text bubbles of Trump

3763
03:30:02,600 --> 03:30:05,200
Speaker 4: conversing with the viewer. Trump says, you will vote for

3764
03:30:05,320 --> 03:30:08,680
Speaker 4: me after this right, with the viewer responding yeah sure.

3765
03:30:10,320 --> 03:30:13,119
Speaker 1: In the board they can't even get somewhat excited about

3766
03:30:13,160 --> 03:30:13,720
Speaker 1: this election.

3767
03:30:15,200 --> 03:30:19,080
Speaker 4: Extra text with an arrow pointing to Trump reads ineligible

3768
03:30:19,160 --> 03:30:22,320
Speaker 4: to run again. This piece has by far the highest

3769
03:30:22,400 --> 03:30:25,360
Speaker 4: number of horny comments underneath the image. Now I think

3770
03:30:25,560 --> 03:30:28,359
Speaker 4: the actual worst when I discovered is a happy International

3771
03:30:28,400 --> 03:30:30,960
Speaker 4: Men's Day cartoon of Trump wearing an American flag thong

3772
03:30:31,040 --> 03:30:33,439
Speaker 4: standing on top of a box of noble Peace prizes.

3773
03:30:33,480 --> 03:30:35,000
Speaker 15: With thanks you for censoring that.

3774
03:30:35,280 --> 03:30:39,720
Speaker 4: Jesus with the Stephen with the Stephen Universe character Pearl

3775
03:30:39,879 --> 03:30:42,680
Speaker 4: in a bikini holding onto Trump, rubbing her leg against

3776
03:30:42,680 --> 03:30:43,080
Speaker 4: his thigh.

3777
03:30:43,120 --> 03:30:45,160
Speaker 1: Now see, and I don't feel like Pearl would do this.

3778
03:30:45,600 --> 03:30:48,640
Speaker 4: No, No, so Pearl has a text bubble saying forget women,

3779
03:30:48,840 --> 03:30:50,360
Speaker 4: I only make love to real men.

3780
03:30:50,520 --> 03:30:50,640
Speaker 7: Now.

3781
03:30:51,240 --> 03:30:53,879
Speaker 4: Now, I wanted to learn more about why this image exists.

3782
03:30:54,320 --> 03:30:57,760
Speaker 4: The artist behind this creation is named Luke Weber, and

3783
03:30:57,879 --> 03:31:00,360
Speaker 4: he actually used to work on this show Steven Universe

3784
03:31:00,400 --> 03:31:01,600
Speaker 4: as a story artist.

3785
03:31:02,080 --> 03:31:04,119
Speaker 1: Oh god, so this is Cannon.

3786
03:31:04,800 --> 03:31:08,720
Speaker 4: No, Luke had really unhealthy Luke had a really unhealthy

3787
03:31:08,760 --> 03:31:13,080
Speaker 4: obsession with the lesbian character Pearl, and would often waste

3788
03:31:13,160 --> 03:31:16,359
Speaker 4: time at work by drawing really horny art of himself

3789
03:31:16,520 --> 03:31:20,080
Speaker 4: and Pearl in a relationship of his art of him

3790
03:31:20,120 --> 03:31:23,199
Speaker 4: and Pearl would include other co workers like Ian Jones, Corty,

3791
03:31:23,560 --> 03:31:27,040
Speaker 4: and show creator Rebecca Sugar. He allegedly gave Rebecca Sugar

3792
03:31:27,280 --> 03:31:30,400
Speaker 4: a drawing of having sex with Pearl, which allegedly got

3793
03:31:30,480 --> 03:31:32,880
Speaker 4: him fired from the show among many other reasons, and

3794
03:31:32,959 --> 03:31:36,120
Speaker 4: he's been blacklisted from large parts of the animation industry

3795
03:31:36,320 --> 03:31:37,880
Speaker 4: for sexual harassment and violence.

3796
03:31:38,480 --> 03:31:41,400
Speaker 1: Oh well, that was much worse than I thought it

3797
03:31:41,480 --> 03:31:41,880
Speaker 1: was going to do.

3798
03:31:42,920 --> 03:31:45,480
Speaker 15: I was like, this is bat Novis is really fucked up.

3799
03:31:45,560 --> 03:31:49,920
Speaker 4: Eh, so this this there's there's some bad stuff. Now,

3800
03:31:50,040 --> 03:31:51,680
Speaker 4: I say the best for last. There's a small collection

3801
03:31:51,760 --> 03:31:54,120
Speaker 4: of pieces riffing on that picture of Trump playing tennis

3802
03:31:54,160 --> 03:31:57,320
Speaker 4: where he looks all quote unquote caked up one uh

3803
03:31:57,520 --> 03:32:00,360
Speaker 4: with Trump in his tennis SciFIT is bending over pants

3804
03:32:00,440 --> 03:32:04,520
Speaker 4: down crackout with a variation of featuring two large what

3805
03:32:04,600 --> 03:32:08,200
Speaker 4: I'm gonna call dark skinned penises, I think Trump interracial

3806
03:32:08,240 --> 03:32:11,160
Speaker 4: bottoming is a is a trend that we'll see reoccurring

3807
03:32:11,240 --> 03:32:14,800
Speaker 4: here of course. Now, however, I believe the superior tennis

3808
03:32:14,840 --> 03:32:17,840
Speaker 4: piece is from an artist named Shad Bass, who might

3809
03:32:17,959 --> 03:32:20,840
Speaker 4: be a Nazi or just pretends to be one online.

3810
03:32:21,480 --> 03:32:24,320
Speaker 4: Cutting in here to do a quick correction. So originally

3811
03:32:24,440 --> 03:32:27,080
Speaker 4: in this episode identified a Shad Bass as a trans woman,

3812
03:32:27,160 --> 03:32:29,320
Speaker 4: which is not the case. The reason why I thought

3813
03:32:29,360 --> 03:32:31,640
Speaker 4: this is because the most recent picture appearing to be

3814
03:32:31,640 --> 03:32:33,879
Speaker 4: Shad based on his Twitter account from like a year ago,

3815
03:32:34,480 --> 03:32:38,160
Speaker 4: is him as a trans woman talking about getting on estrogen. Now,

3816
03:32:38,240 --> 03:32:40,320
Speaker 4: this was actually part of an ongoing joke that I

3817
03:32:40,480 --> 03:32:43,000
Speaker 4: just didn't have the context for, as he's like a

3818
03:32:43,200 --> 03:32:45,880
Speaker 4: really scummy and deeply problematic artist who I did not

3819
03:32:46,000 --> 03:32:48,720
Speaker 4: feel like doing a whole deep dive on so Apologies

3820
03:32:48,760 --> 03:32:51,520
Speaker 4: for that and back to the episode. But she has

3821
03:32:51,640 --> 03:32:53,800
Speaker 4: drawn Trump in the same post as the famous photo,

3822
03:32:54,000 --> 03:32:57,440
Speaker 4: but as an anime girl wearing a transparent tennis skirt

3823
03:32:57,879 --> 03:33:01,320
Speaker 4: with the comments underneath saying I'd vote for her and

3824
03:33:01,959 --> 03:33:03,480
Speaker 4: I don't have enough weed for this shit.

3825
03:33:04,080 --> 03:33:04,760
Speaker 1: Nobody does.

3826
03:33:05,320 --> 03:33:07,600
Speaker 15: That's what I was about to say about this recording.

3827
03:33:08,440 --> 03:33:11,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know what we do have, Sophie, an

3828
03:33:11,360 --> 03:33:12,800
Speaker 4: ad break, an ad break.

3829
03:33:13,200 --> 03:33:16,400
Speaker 14: Yeah, we can all consume substances to get through the

3830
03:33:16,440 --> 03:33:16,880
Speaker 14: rest of this.

3831
03:33:28,040 --> 03:33:31,560
Speaker 4: Okay, we are back now. The most interesting thing I

3832
03:33:31,600 --> 03:33:33,480
Speaker 4: found on a Real thirty four is a political comic

3833
03:33:33,640 --> 03:33:36,280
Speaker 4: by a guy named Larry Weltz who makes this thing

3834
03:33:36,360 --> 03:33:38,840
Speaker 4: called Cherry Comics. He's like an old hippie cartoonist. This

3835
03:33:38,959 --> 03:33:41,680
Speaker 4: is a long running series, but these collection of panels

3836
03:33:41,680 --> 03:33:44,359
Speaker 4: are about a group of women using quote unquote weaponized

3837
03:33:44,480 --> 03:33:47,880
Speaker 4: sex to bring to bring down Donald Trump. One page

3838
03:33:47,920 --> 03:33:50,000
Speaker 4: depicts the main character, Cherry, breaking into the White House

3839
03:33:50,160 --> 03:33:53,320
Speaker 4: like a quote unquote sex ninja to quote Fuckum to

3840
03:33:53,520 --> 03:33:57,240
Speaker 4: death unquote. One plotline has Cherry using her love powers

3841
03:33:57,360 --> 03:33:59,280
Speaker 4: to make all of the riot police at a twenty

3842
03:33:59,360 --> 03:34:01,240
Speaker 4: twenty protest to take off their riot gear and start

3843
03:34:01,280 --> 03:34:04,240
Speaker 4: having gay sex with each other through the power of love. Now,

3844
03:34:04,560 --> 03:34:08,200
Speaker 4: in the main panel, Cherry seduces a very unflattering Trump

3845
03:34:08,760 --> 03:34:12,440
Speaker 4: from the bushes of a golf course. Quote grab some

3846
03:34:13,160 --> 03:34:18,960
Speaker 4: uh this py word, Pretend I'm your daughter unquote. She

3847
03:34:19,040 --> 03:34:21,039
Speaker 4: gets trumped to chase her naked through a golf course,

3848
03:34:21,080 --> 03:34:23,320
Speaker 4: and when he's about to grab her, she disappears with

3849
03:34:23,400 --> 03:34:25,960
Speaker 4: the accompanying on a monopea twink, which I think is

3850
03:34:26,000 --> 03:34:31,040
Speaker 4: completely unintentional, naked into a face full of mud. I

3851
03:34:31,080 --> 03:34:33,200
Speaker 4: think this comic is actually good natured, but it's still

3852
03:34:33,280 --> 03:34:35,279
Speaker 4: kind of really problematic and very boomer.

3853
03:34:35,120 --> 03:34:38,480
Speaker 14: Pretend I'm your daughter, So they're like rooting for Trump

3854
03:34:38,600 --> 03:34:39,560
Speaker 14: to insst fa.

3855
03:34:39,840 --> 03:34:42,360
Speaker 4: There is a lot we will get to this. There

3856
03:34:42,480 --> 03:34:46,039
Speaker 4: is a lot of a Vanka Trump weird incest shit.

3857
03:34:46,240 --> 03:34:48,640
Speaker 4: It is deeply upsetting. Like I said, I put the

3858
03:34:48,680 --> 03:34:51,680
Speaker 4: content warning further up because there's gonna be some really

3859
03:34:52,080 --> 03:34:55,360
Speaker 4: bad psychosexual shit that I tried to really like clean

3860
03:34:55,480 --> 03:34:58,720
Speaker 4: up here. But yeah, this like boomer hippie cherry comic

3861
03:34:58,800 --> 03:35:01,120
Speaker 4: thing is really weird because it's very like nominally liberal,

3862
03:35:01,480 --> 03:35:04,560
Speaker 4: but it also has like really like classically racist cartoon

3863
03:35:04,640 --> 03:35:08,440
Speaker 4: depictions of black people. Oh great, It's just it's just

3864
03:35:08,520 --> 03:35:11,840
Speaker 4: a lot anyway. So but I again, I was kind

3865
03:35:11,879 --> 03:35:14,800
Speaker 4: of surprised that tags for Trump only returned like a

3866
03:35:14,959 --> 03:35:18,400
Speaker 4: few a few Trump images. When I started just quote

3867
03:35:18,440 --> 03:35:21,040
Speaker 4: unquote Trump on roll thirty four, most of the results

3868
03:35:21,080 --> 03:35:23,680
Speaker 4: were for a furry Japanese webcomic that's over one hundred

3869
03:35:23,680 --> 03:35:25,520
Speaker 4: and twenty pages. Because I think the artist just goes

3870
03:35:25,560 --> 03:35:28,800
Speaker 4: by the name Trump, He's completely unrelated, and I was

3871
03:35:28,879 --> 03:35:31,760
Speaker 4: really just expecting more stuff. I checked Dvan art and

3872
03:35:31,800 --> 03:35:34,240
Speaker 4: it was largely barren of Trump themed not safe for

3873
03:35:34,280 --> 03:35:37,040
Speaker 4: work images. Now, just as I was about to give

3874
03:35:37,120 --> 03:35:39,520
Speaker 4: up and I thought maybe there's not enough for an episode,

3875
03:35:40,000 --> 03:35:43,960
Speaker 4: my my primal Zoomer brain activated. It's like it's like

3876
03:35:44,040 --> 03:35:46,400
Speaker 4: something deep in my core knew what had to be done.

3877
03:35:46,680 --> 03:35:50,640
Speaker 4: Rival Zoomer. That's what I logged into the website archive

3878
03:35:50,760 --> 03:35:54,600
Speaker 4: of our own, the most popular fiction website on the Internet.

3879
03:35:55,120 --> 03:35:58,959
Speaker 4: There are over one thousand and seven hundred works titled

3880
03:35:59,680 --> 03:36:01,080
Speaker 4: tagged with Donald Trump.

3881
03:36:01,120 --> 03:36:02,120
Speaker 1: It's like the right number.

3882
03:36:02,480 --> 03:36:05,320
Speaker 4: Now, not all that's porn or erotica, right, So I

3883
03:36:05,440 --> 03:36:07,600
Speaker 4: had to really whittle down the results based on my

3884
03:36:07,640 --> 03:36:10,120
Speaker 4: own judgment and to my own tastes. Now, I had

3885
03:36:10,160 --> 03:36:13,720
Speaker 4: a very specific focus on the genre of old man yowie, which,

3886
03:36:13,720 --> 03:36:17,080
Speaker 4: of course you conveniently was also what the majority of

3887
03:36:17,160 --> 03:36:19,600
Speaker 4: the Trump centric works that were like rated, M and

3888
03:36:19,720 --> 03:36:21,960
Speaker 4: explicit could be categorized.

3889
03:36:21,440 --> 03:36:22,560
Speaker 1: As of course they were.

3890
03:36:23,360 --> 03:36:25,279
Speaker 4: Let's start our journey by going over the most popular

3891
03:36:25,320 --> 03:36:28,600
Speaker 4: Donald Trump relationship pairings and any guesses for what. The

3892
03:36:28,680 --> 03:36:32,600
Speaker 4: first one is like Donald Trump X, like who you

3893
03:36:32,680 --> 03:36:33,240
Speaker 4: know what, I'm.

3894
03:36:33,120 --> 03:36:36,280
Speaker 1: Gonna swing for the fences here and say Condoeza Rice.

3895
03:36:37,440 --> 03:36:40,960
Speaker 4: Sorry in a wrong Yeah, that was that was always

3896
03:36:41,000 --> 03:36:42,320
Speaker 4: a Sophie coming to the ste.

3897
03:36:44,120 --> 03:36:47,240
Speaker 15: I mean, unfortunately, I kind of think it's probably Avanka.

3898
03:36:48,040 --> 03:36:48,400
Speaker 7: It is not.

3899
03:36:49,000 --> 03:36:52,680
Speaker 4: It's not Avokavanka and Hillary had very few, so few

3900
03:36:52,720 --> 03:36:54,560
Speaker 4: that they're not even notable and not even in my list.

3901
03:36:54,879 --> 03:36:57,959
Speaker 4: The number one pairing for Donald Trump is Joe Biden

3902
03:36:58,040 --> 03:37:01,000
Speaker 4: with what one hundred and ninety two works? You know,

3903
03:37:01,640 --> 03:37:04,240
Speaker 4: that's what we deserve as a country. The number two

3904
03:37:04,600 --> 03:37:08,760
Speaker 4: is Vladimir Putin with one hundred and four. Number three, okay,

3905
03:37:08,879 --> 03:37:13,199
Speaker 4: number three is Shrek with thirty four works. Sorry, that's sorry,

3906
03:37:13,240 --> 03:37:16,040
Speaker 4: that is number four. Number four is Shrek. Number three

3907
03:37:16,280 --> 03:37:18,720
Speaker 4: is Barack Obama with thirty seven works.

3908
03:37:19,320 --> 03:37:22,040
Speaker 1: Well, that's less Obama than I expected of it.

3909
03:37:22,480 --> 03:37:23,560
Speaker 15: Yeah, that was my point.

3910
03:37:24,000 --> 03:37:26,320
Speaker 4: Number five is Kim Jong un with twenty.

3911
03:37:26,160 --> 03:37:29,280
Speaker 1: Four k the that's the exact number of Kim Jong

3912
03:37:29,320 --> 03:37:30,600
Speaker 1: owd once I expect.

3913
03:37:30,760 --> 03:37:34,240
Speaker 4: We have twelve works that are titled Donald Trump X Reader.

3914
03:37:34,959 --> 03:37:38,480
Speaker 4: Seven of them are Trump and Jesus Christ, six are

3915
03:37:38,560 --> 03:37:42,360
Speaker 4: Donald Trump Kanye West, five are Adolf Hitler Donald Trump,

3916
03:37:42,720 --> 03:37:46,760
Speaker 4: and two are Teletubbies and Donald Trump. Forty one works

3917
03:37:46,840 --> 03:37:51,480
Speaker 4: are titled as or tagged as bottom Donald Trump Wow Wow,

3918
03:37:52,040 --> 03:37:54,600
Speaker 4: far outnumbering the numbers where he tops.

3919
03:37:54,720 --> 03:37:57,800
Speaker 14: So I'm actually really surprised by only seven for Jesus

3920
03:37:57,920 --> 03:37:58,920
Speaker 14: because I'm kind.

3921
03:37:58,760 --> 03:37:59,920
Speaker 1: Of curious about the cheese.

3922
03:38:00,520 --> 03:38:03,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, Robert, I have I had great news for you.

3923
03:38:06,879 --> 03:38:07,039
Speaker 1: Now.

3924
03:38:07,280 --> 03:38:08,920
Speaker 4: We don't have the time, nor do I have the

3925
03:38:08,959 --> 03:38:11,160
Speaker 4: willpower to go through each and every one of these,

3926
03:38:11,400 --> 03:38:14,360
Speaker 4: so instead I like to highlight some of the plot summaries, tags,

3927
03:38:14,400 --> 03:38:16,480
Speaker 4: and select paragraphs that caught my eye to give you

3928
03:38:16,560 --> 03:38:19,320
Speaker 4: a taste of the horror that I've gazed upon. I'll

3929
03:38:19,320 --> 03:38:21,200
Speaker 4: start with one of the newest entries in the Cannon,

3930
03:38:21,400 --> 03:38:26,600
Speaker 4: titled Donald Trump Prison Era. I'm gonna start with a

3931
03:38:26,640 --> 03:38:29,720
Speaker 4: time skip quote. It's been four years since Trump was rejailed.

3932
03:38:29,840 --> 03:38:31,840
Speaker 4: Him and his friends were locked in the safest, most

3933
03:38:31,879 --> 03:38:34,360
Speaker 4: desolate place in the prison. They may not have freedom,

3934
03:38:34,400 --> 03:38:37,199
Speaker 4: but at least they have each other. During those four years,

3935
03:38:37,280 --> 03:38:39,800
Speaker 4: Ben Shapiro was thrown in prison too. He was very

3936
03:38:39,920 --> 03:38:42,880
Speaker 4: silent at what he had done and therefore distanced himself

3937
03:38:42,879 --> 03:38:45,080
Speaker 4: from everybody. I don't know what he did, but he

3938
03:38:45,160 --> 03:38:47,000
Speaker 4: must have done something to ruin him as a person,

3939
03:38:47,160 --> 03:38:51,240
Speaker 4: Warren Buffett said, and everyone nodded. Is he one of

3940
03:38:51,320 --> 03:38:55,400
Speaker 4: Trump's friends? We have each other at least will be

3941
03:38:55,520 --> 03:38:59,720
Speaker 4: fine in this jail. Elongated muskrat said, Trump was cuddling

3942
03:38:59,800 --> 03:39:01,320
Speaker 4: with Andrew Tate in the corner.

3943
03:39:05,120 --> 03:39:07,400
Speaker 1: This is the closest I've come for feeling bad for

3944
03:39:07,560 --> 03:39:08,160
Speaker 1: Andrew Tate.

3945
03:39:09,800 --> 03:39:12,360
Speaker 15: I for the record, I still don't feel bad for

3946
03:39:12,440 --> 03:39:12,920
Speaker 15: Andrew Tait.

3947
03:39:14,080 --> 03:39:17,920
Speaker 4: Another one which is Trump ex reader. The summary is quote.

3948
03:39:18,040 --> 03:39:19,560
Speaker 4: It began four years ago when you saw him on

3949
03:39:19,600 --> 03:39:22,240
Speaker 4: TV during the presidential inauguration. You were laying on your bed,

3950
03:39:22,280 --> 03:39:27,400
Speaker 4: listening to country music on you American bedsheet. Suddenly you

3951
03:39:27,520 --> 03:39:30,000
Speaker 4: saw his big, handsome orange face and you knew he

3952
03:39:30,160 --> 03:39:35,279
Speaker 4: had to be yours. So in this one, the reader

3953
03:39:35,520 --> 03:39:38,720
Speaker 4: gets to marry or get with Trump in some way,

3954
03:39:38,840 --> 03:39:41,920
Speaker 4: and then you kind of like plan the January sixth

3955
03:39:41,959 --> 03:39:47,040
Speaker 4: insurrection together. So that's a fun one. There's a really

3956
03:39:47,080 --> 03:39:51,160
Speaker 4: good one titled Trump poly Relationship with the tags Joe Biden,

3957
03:39:51,200 --> 03:39:54,840
Speaker 4: Brock Obama, Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Donald Trump, Sonic

3958
03:39:54,920 --> 03:39:57,240
Speaker 4: the Hedgehog, enemies to lovers see.

3959
03:39:57,240 --> 03:39:59,800
Speaker 1: I feel like only Sonic the Hedgehog of that group

3960
03:40:00,000 --> 03:40:04,119
Speaker 1: as the communication skills necessary for a successful polyamorous relationship.

3961
03:40:04,560 --> 03:40:07,960
Speaker 4: There's another one that's tagged as Donald Trump, Kanye West,

3962
03:40:08,080 --> 03:40:09,000
Speaker 4: BoJack Horseman.

3963
03:40:10,120 --> 03:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Of course I feel you know, BoJack, would you get

3964
03:40:14,080 --> 03:40:16,040
Speaker 1: him drunk enough, he'd get on with that.

3965
03:40:17,560 --> 03:40:21,880
Speaker 4: And there's really like there's two big genres here. There's

3966
03:40:22,200 --> 03:40:25,400
Speaker 4: the genre that's just like regular smut, where you feel

3967
03:40:25,440 --> 03:40:27,240
Speaker 4: like someone's just like a controlled f to all of

3968
03:40:27,280 --> 03:40:30,320
Speaker 4: the names and like just like switched it around, versus

3969
03:40:31,680 --> 03:40:35,000
Speaker 4: the fan fits that are entrenched in world building that

3970
03:40:35,160 --> 03:40:39,280
Speaker 4: integrates erotic literature with the world of Donald Trump. And

3971
03:40:39,400 --> 03:40:40,959
Speaker 4: those are the ones I like to focus on more

3972
03:40:41,000 --> 03:40:44,800
Speaker 4: because you know, it's not universe exactly. You know, it's

3973
03:40:44,840 --> 03:40:47,800
Speaker 4: not just someone control effing just like a regular sex scene.

3974
03:40:47,959 --> 03:40:50,040
Speaker 4: I wanted to actually like, I want to have lore,

3975
03:40:50,240 --> 03:40:55,480
Speaker 4: I want world building. I need to be connected to what.

3976
03:40:55,760 --> 03:41:01,240
Speaker 1: The story titled Donald Trump's Monstrous dick that you've put

3977
03:41:01,320 --> 03:41:02,119
Speaker 1: in this document.

3978
03:41:02,560 --> 03:41:04,520
Speaker 4: No, I'm gonna skip over that one. Actually we don't

3979
03:41:04,520 --> 03:41:07,160
Speaker 4: have enough creat Oh okay, this is just a woman

3980
03:41:07,240 --> 03:41:11,400
Speaker 4: talking about how she finds his orange, shiny body attractive,

3981
03:41:11,440 --> 03:41:13,200
Speaker 4: which there's a lot of that kind of stuff, right,

3982
03:41:13,480 --> 03:41:16,200
Speaker 4: I'm gonna instead go to Where the Wind Blows by

3983
03:41:16,480 --> 03:41:21,600
Speaker 4: Just and lone three summary. Joe Biden is a seventeen

3984
03:41:21,680 --> 03:41:23,760
Speaker 4: year old senior who happens to the top of his class.

3985
03:41:24,440 --> 03:41:27,320
Speaker 4: Not as the perfect straight, a capable student to friends

3986
03:41:27,360 --> 03:41:29,480
Speaker 4: and family, but what happens when a new student who

3987
03:41:29,480 --> 03:41:31,360
Speaker 4: got kicked out of his old school for fights gets

3988
03:41:31,400 --> 03:41:34,879
Speaker 4: partnered up with him for tutoring. I'm actually gonna skip

3989
03:41:34,959 --> 03:41:38,320
Speaker 4: to chapter two titled what the Sigma?

3990
03:41:39,040 --> 03:41:43,560
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, oh, my god.

3991
03:41:44,240 --> 03:41:47,440
Speaker 4: Quote. After about two hours they finished their study session,

3992
03:41:47,840 --> 03:41:50,680
Speaker 4: Joe went out to a cafe with his childhood friends

3993
03:41:50,840 --> 03:41:54,080
Speaker 4: Brock and Bury the Bee Benson just imagine Bury the

3994
03:41:54,160 --> 03:41:56,320
Speaker 4: Bee to be six feet tall. The three of them

3995
03:41:56,680 --> 03:41:59,840
Speaker 4: talk at a booth inside when the topic of Donald

3996
03:42:00,080 --> 03:42:04,040
Speaker 4: brought up. Joe, bro Dude, I heard that Donald got

3997
03:42:04,120 --> 03:42:06,360
Speaker 4: kicked out of his old school for selling illegal stuff

3998
03:42:06,400 --> 03:42:09,000
Speaker 4: and getting into three fights per week at least Barry

3999
03:42:09,040 --> 03:42:11,600
Speaker 4: said in a hushed tone. Has he tried to hurt

4000
03:42:11,680 --> 03:42:14,080
Speaker 4: you at all? Do need help? Is he meeting up

4001
03:42:14,120 --> 03:42:16,680
Speaker 4: with a secret gang or something? Barry uttered under his

4002
03:42:16,760 --> 03:42:18,520
Speaker 4: breath as his wings slightly flapped.

4003
03:42:18,840 --> 03:42:21,960
Speaker 1: What the fuck? So he's a literal b wait?

4004
03:42:22,080 --> 03:42:24,600
Speaker 14: So no, no, no, no, no, Barry the Bee Benson

4005
03:42:24,760 --> 03:42:26,880
Speaker 14: is the Jerry Seinfeld Bee movie?

4006
03:42:27,000 --> 03:42:27,760
Speaker 4: Be correct?

4007
03:42:27,879 --> 03:42:32,640
Speaker 15: I'm might wait? No really joking, Robert, Yes, yes.

4008
03:42:32,600 --> 03:42:33,440
Speaker 4: We got back.

4009
03:42:33,520 --> 03:42:35,039
Speaker 15: Why fucking b movie?

4010
03:42:35,280 --> 03:42:41,200
Speaker 1: Somehow Jerry's I can't escape jerrys idfelt. No matter where

4011
03:42:41,320 --> 03:42:45,800
Speaker 1: I go, He's always there. Even in Trump pornography, Jerry

4012
03:42:45,959 --> 03:42:46,520
Speaker 1: follows me.

4013
03:42:47,600 --> 03:42:51,560
Speaker 4: Barry, you're overreacting, Brock said as he rubbed the inner

4014
03:42:51,720 --> 03:42:54,600
Speaker 4: of his eyes with his pointer fingers. I'm sure Joe

4015
03:42:54,680 --> 03:42:57,640
Speaker 4: can handle himself. He's almost eighteen. Besides, can we talk

4016
03:42:57,680 --> 03:42:59,840
Speaker 4: about something else, like how Drake and Kendrick got caught

4017
03:43:00,040 --> 03:43:02,320
Speaker 4: making out under the bleachers. I'm pretty sure they hated

4018
03:43:02,320 --> 03:43:04,320
Speaker 4: each other just three weeks ago, or at least Kendrick

4019
03:43:04,360 --> 03:43:09,360
Speaker 4: hated Drake after he dated the freshman. There's one called

4020
03:43:09,480 --> 03:43:13,080
Speaker 4: Election Day where Shrek tries to prevent you from voting

4021
03:43:13,400 --> 03:43:15,880
Speaker 4: and Trump shows up as like a superhero. There's some

4022
03:43:16,040 --> 03:43:21,360
Speaker 4: like isis jokes, refugee jokes. Anyway, there's some there's some

4023
03:43:21,440 --> 03:43:22,440
Speaker 4: funny lines in here.

4024
03:43:22,520 --> 03:43:25,760
Speaker 1: To be sure, it is Donald Trump who is your hero.

4025
03:43:26,160 --> 03:43:29,680
Speaker 1: His intense alpha stare disintegrates the rest of Shrek's body,

4026
03:43:30,080 --> 03:43:33,680
Speaker 1: leaving you covered dot dot dot. Donald pulls his pants

4027
03:43:33,760 --> 03:43:34,080
Speaker 1: back on.

4028
03:43:34,640 --> 03:43:40,680
Speaker 4: Yeah so Yeahrek, Yeah. Anyway. There's a really troubling one

4029
03:43:40,760 --> 03:43:43,600
Speaker 4: titled Under the Crooked Lamp, which is tagged with American

4030
03:43:43,680 --> 03:43:47,840
Speaker 4: history fandom, World War II fandom, Nazi Germany fandom. The

4031
03:43:47,920 --> 03:43:51,080
Speaker 4: summary is quote short smut about Adolf Hitler and Donald Trump,

4032
03:43:51,120 --> 03:43:53,560
Speaker 4: with cameos from Barack Obama and Kanye West. So there

4033
03:43:53,600 --> 03:43:56,920
Speaker 4: you go, now, I The one of the most popular

4034
03:43:57,920 --> 03:44:01,840
Speaker 4: Donald Trump benfix is titled Donald Trump Story. Quote. I

4035
03:44:01,959 --> 03:44:04,800
Speaker 4: walked past the door of the Oval Office, No, my office,

4036
03:44:05,120 --> 03:44:08,840
Speaker 4: my house. Finally, the White House, the only race that

4037
03:44:08,920 --> 03:44:12,039
Speaker 4: should be here unquote. So not off to a great start.

4038
03:44:13,520 --> 03:44:16,920
Speaker 4: Throughout this fick. Trump falls in love with a Mexican

4039
03:44:17,000 --> 03:44:20,040
Speaker 4: architect that he hired to build the wall. That's the

4040
03:44:20,080 --> 03:44:22,840
Speaker 4: whole bit, now, Robert, I know you said you were

4041
03:44:22,879 --> 03:44:24,199
Speaker 4: interested in Jesus Christ.

4042
03:44:25,480 --> 03:44:28,440
Speaker 15: Of course is yeah, he is kind of.

4043
03:44:30,000 --> 03:44:32,600
Speaker 4: The most popular Jesus Christ. One I could find is

4044
03:44:32,680 --> 03:44:40,879
Speaker 4: called Jesus X Trump pussy Sure the uh. The summary

4045
03:44:41,040 --> 03:44:43,039
Speaker 4: is Trump kicks the bucket and has a very interesting

4046
03:44:43,240 --> 03:44:49,160
Speaker 4: surprise waiting for him. Chapter one, Trumpy Dumpty meets sky Daddy.

4047
03:44:53,400 --> 03:44:57,080
Speaker 15: Oh my god, I'm so worried about our society.

4048
03:44:58,120 --> 03:45:01,480
Speaker 4: So Trumpet Trump gets assassinated and to his surprise, gets

4049
03:45:01,600 --> 03:45:03,360
Speaker 4: sent to heaven. He thought he was going to be

4050
03:45:03,400 --> 03:45:06,120
Speaker 4: going to hell with gay people on Hillary Clinton, but

4051
03:45:06,240 --> 03:45:09,080
Speaker 4: instead Jesus is waiting for him, and Jesus says, be

4052
03:45:09,200 --> 03:45:12,480
Speaker 4: prepared for the right of your life or death. You

4053
03:45:12,600 --> 03:45:14,680
Speaker 4: are a bad little slut on earth and it's time

4054
03:45:14,760 --> 03:45:16,800
Speaker 4: for you to pay for your sins. My little Trump

4055
03:45:16,879 --> 03:45:19,920
Speaker 4: was sy I hope you're ready anyway.

4056
03:45:19,959 --> 03:45:21,840
Speaker 1: I kind of hate that they stole my catchphrase.

4057
03:45:22,200 --> 03:45:25,680
Speaker 4: Now by chapter seven, Donald Trump is pregnant. There's eight

4058
03:45:25,800 --> 03:45:26,520
Speaker 4: chapters in this.

4059
03:45:30,200 --> 03:45:30,320
Speaker 7: Kid.

4060
03:45:30,440 --> 03:45:34,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that's that's all you need to present to

4061
03:45:34,480 --> 03:45:38,800
Speaker 1: get someone fifty one fifty Like that's an involuntary mental

4062
03:45:38,840 --> 03:45:39,840
Speaker 1: health hold right there.

4063
03:45:40,160 --> 03:45:45,080
Speaker 4: Speaking of pregnancy, there's a very popular or the most popular.

4064
03:45:44,959 --> 03:45:48,120
Speaker 15: Go to an ad break speaking of pregnancy.

4065
03:45:49,120 --> 03:45:53,920
Speaker 4: Speak the most popular Donald Trump Xaydalf Hitler. One is

4066
03:45:54,000 --> 03:45:56,160
Speaker 4: titled Warped Tour A Great Place for Home of Hobes

4067
03:45:56,240 --> 03:45:59,160
Speaker 4: to mate hot guys. It's set at this music.

4068
03:45:59,000 --> 03:46:03,160
Speaker 1: Festival about wharfed Tour It's Not Wrong, where.

4069
03:46:03,000 --> 03:46:05,280
Speaker 4: Adolf Hitler and Donald tr are both there to like

4070
03:46:05,640 --> 03:46:08,760
Speaker 4: disrupt like a gay concert and they have like a

4071
03:46:08,840 --> 03:46:12,240
Speaker 4: little meet cute. Trump invites invites Hitler back to the

4072
03:46:12,360 --> 03:46:13,920
Speaker 4: back to his hotel room to come up with new

4073
03:46:14,120 --> 03:46:17,040
Speaker 4: plans for how to try to harass gay people. And

4074
03:46:17,160 --> 03:46:20,440
Speaker 4: it ends with Adolf Hitler being impregnated. But Trump is

4075
03:46:20,480 --> 03:46:24,200
Speaker 4: not a supportive parent, so Joseph Goebelers has to help

4076
03:46:24,280 --> 03:46:26,680
Speaker 4: deliver the child with Hitler instead of Trump.

4077
03:46:27,160 --> 03:46:29,600
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I gotta say, at least they get

4078
03:46:29,680 --> 03:46:33,040
Speaker 1: the personalities right, because Joseph, Joseph is the kind of

4079
03:46:33,080 --> 03:46:34,760
Speaker 1: guy who would who would come in at the clutch

4080
03:46:34,879 --> 03:46:38,279
Speaker 1: like that to help Hitler deliver his lust baby.

4081
03:46:39,000 --> 03:46:42,200
Speaker 4: There's there's two decently popular Trump x Biden ones that

4082
03:46:42,240 --> 03:46:46,720
Speaker 4: are set during presidential debates, one of which they fuck backstage.

4083
03:46:47,320 --> 03:46:52,240
Speaker 4: And I don't think five thousand hits, I don't. Okay,

4084
03:46:52,560 --> 03:46:56,120
Speaker 4: no one gets pregnant in this one, but there are

4085
03:46:56,200 --> 03:46:59,040
Speaker 4: certainly others, so there's one where they have sex backstage,

4086
03:46:59,360 --> 03:47:01,280
Speaker 4: and then there's another one where they have sex on

4087
03:47:01,680 --> 03:47:04,320
Speaker 4: stage and Chris Wallace is moderating.

4088
03:47:05,080 --> 03:47:06,120
Speaker 1: Someone should let him know.

4089
03:47:07,920 --> 03:47:11,360
Speaker 4: Oh, and then in chapter two, Donald Trump gives birth

4090
03:47:11,360 --> 03:47:13,240
Speaker 4: because he got he got imprinted on stage.

4091
03:47:13,560 --> 03:47:13,720
Speaker 6: Yeah.

4092
03:47:13,920 --> 03:47:16,200
Speaker 1: I think, Garrison, you need to do your job as

4093
03:47:16,200 --> 03:47:18,160
Speaker 1: a journalist, and we need to We need to reach

4094
03:47:18,200 --> 03:47:23,080
Speaker 1: out to Chris Wallace and ask, theoretically, would he narrate

4095
03:47:23,240 --> 03:47:26,000
Speaker 1: Donald Trump sex with Joe Biden they if they were

4096
03:47:26,080 --> 03:47:28,040
Speaker 1: to do that on stage, how does he feel about that?

4097
03:47:28,360 --> 03:47:32,000
Speaker 4: I will go to the very last one with sixty

4098
03:47:32,120 --> 03:47:34,920
Speaker 4: five thousand hits, by far, the most popular Donald Trump

4099
03:47:35,280 --> 03:47:38,920
Speaker 4: kind of erotica smut on the whole website. It's called

4100
03:47:39,040 --> 03:47:42,320
Speaker 4: go Fuck Yourself Donald Trump by orphan underscore account, who's

4101
03:47:42,320 --> 03:47:44,280
Speaker 4: actually written a few of the ones that we've talked

4102
03:47:44,320 --> 03:47:44,680
Speaker 4: about here.

4103
03:47:44,840 --> 03:47:46,560
Speaker 1: Sixty five thousand views.

4104
03:47:47,000 --> 03:47:47,200
Speaker 14: Yeah.

4105
03:47:47,959 --> 03:47:51,960
Speaker 4: Published in twenty seventeen, just before in Auguration day. Quote

4106
03:47:52,520 --> 03:47:55,039
Speaker 4: another person told me to go fuck myself today. Donald

4107
03:47:55,040 --> 03:47:59,320
Speaker 4: Trump told his strong Russian lover Vladimir Putin. I want to,

4108
03:47:59,400 --> 03:48:02,360
Speaker 4: but it's importants. There's only one of me. So the

4109
03:48:02,400 --> 03:48:05,040
Speaker 4: first paragraph is about how Putin forces Trump to eat

4110
03:48:05,280 --> 03:48:08,440
Speaker 4: three tubs of crisco a day. It's basically just body

4111
03:48:08,480 --> 03:48:11,960
Speaker 4: shaming for the majority of this of this piece sounds

4112
03:48:12,000 --> 03:48:16,640
Speaker 4: like too yes totally. And then Putin presents a clone

4113
03:48:16,760 --> 03:48:19,879
Speaker 4: of Donald Trump. Quote its eyes were almost as lifeless

4114
03:48:19,959 --> 03:48:23,560
Speaker 4: as Donald's himself. That was the true perfection of this creature.

4115
03:48:23,879 --> 03:48:27,560
Speaker 4: He's gorgeous, Trump said, tears sliding down his face. He

4116
03:48:27,640 --> 03:48:29,640
Speaker 4: felt as if he was looking into the mirror. But

4117
03:48:29,800 --> 03:48:33,840
Speaker 4: when he reached to touch his reflection, his his hands

4118
03:48:33,959 --> 03:48:39,040
Speaker 4: met soft clammy skin. Thank you, daddy. Trump eagerly began

4119
03:48:39,200 --> 03:48:43,600
Speaker 4: kissing his clone, pushing his tongue past slack lips until

4120
03:48:43,640 --> 03:48:47,800
Speaker 4: it learned to respond to him. Each hungrily tried to

4121
03:48:47,879 --> 03:48:52,080
Speaker 4: devour the other, their bodies writhing against each other, tears

4122
03:48:52,160 --> 03:48:55,440
Speaker 4: rolling down their faces in unison as they realized that

4123
03:48:56,000 --> 03:48:59,400
Speaker 4: neither one could ever fill the empty void that they

4124
03:48:59,520 --> 03:49:05,400
Speaker 4: felt inside. So that is my extremely abridged version of

4125
03:49:05,480 --> 03:49:09,880
Speaker 4: my AO three adventure. And unfortunately I do have one

4126
03:49:09,960 --> 03:49:12,080
Speaker 4: more section, but it's a bit shorter that we will

4127
03:49:12,120 --> 03:49:14,160
Speaker 4: get to after the break. For some of the more

4128
03:49:14,320 --> 03:49:17,040
Speaker 4: kind of I would say mainstream Trump pornography that can

4129
03:49:17,080 --> 03:49:18,080
Speaker 4: be found on the internet.

4130
03:49:18,640 --> 03:49:32,240
Speaker 1: Finally, all right, we are so back.

4131
03:49:32,680 --> 03:49:36,440
Speaker 4: We have never been more back. So I've been to

4132
03:49:36,520 --> 03:49:39,520
Speaker 4: you know, the regular zoomer places, right, we have like

4133
03:49:39,640 --> 03:49:41,800
Speaker 4: you know, DV and art type stuff. We have AO three.

4134
03:49:41,920 --> 03:49:46,080
Speaker 4: And then I realized that boomers also watch poor So

4135
03:49:46,680 --> 03:49:49,760
Speaker 4: I went to the two most popular porn websites, something

4136
03:49:49,760 --> 03:49:56,120
Speaker 4: I've never done before, and I there's only around thirty

4137
03:49:56,280 --> 03:49:59,520
Speaker 4: Trump centric videos across both sites. Now, there is a

4138
03:49:59,560 --> 03:50:01,920
Speaker 4: decent sort of like repeat uploads, right, and there's some

4139
03:50:02,080 --> 03:50:04,520
Speaker 4: videos that are just cut into shorter clips from longer scenes.

4140
03:50:04,880 --> 03:50:07,120
Speaker 4: But there's only about thirty source videos that I could

4141
03:50:07,160 --> 03:50:09,640
Speaker 4: find across the two top porn sites.

4142
03:50:10,040 --> 03:50:13,280
Speaker 15: Question, is it because they're being censored or is he

4143
03:50:13,440 --> 03:50:14,840
Speaker 15: nons with somebody that.

4144
03:50:15,080 --> 03:50:18,200
Speaker 4: No, it's just it's just not the most popular thing interesting.

4145
03:50:18,320 --> 03:50:20,160
Speaker 4: And now I would argue Trump is probably one of

4146
03:50:20,200 --> 03:50:22,600
Speaker 4: the more sexualized presidents we've we've had in recent years

4147
03:50:22,800 --> 03:50:23,560
Speaker 4: because of his which he.

4148
03:50:23,640 --> 03:50:26,880
Speaker 14: Makes because of who he is, not because of his

4149
03:50:27,200 --> 03:50:28,080
Speaker 14: sex appeal.

4150
03:50:27,960 --> 03:50:29,800
Speaker 4: Because of how he looks, but because of like his

4151
03:50:29,920 --> 03:50:33,000
Speaker 4: personal background and all of his you know, very obvious

4152
03:50:33,080 --> 03:50:36,000
Speaker 4: sex crimes. Right, Like we can go with like Bill Clinton,

4153
03:50:36,160 --> 03:50:38,520
Speaker 4: but like Trump, Trump is so much more sexualized than

4154
03:50:38,600 --> 03:50:42,040
Speaker 4: like Bush or Obama. It's it's it's it's kind of interesting,

4155
03:50:42,440 --> 03:50:46,680
Speaker 4: and yet very few materials on these sites now so weird.

4156
03:50:47,040 --> 03:50:48,120
Speaker 4: There's a few different types here.

4157
03:50:48,280 --> 03:50:48,440
Speaker 7: We have.

4158
03:50:48,640 --> 03:50:51,000
Speaker 4: We have animated ones, which is what I first went through.

4159
03:50:51,520 --> 03:50:54,280
Speaker 4: Some of these are just like voiceover clips of someone

4160
03:50:54,400 --> 03:50:57,440
Speaker 4: playing a porn game and doing voiceover for dialogue. Now,

4161
03:50:57,480 --> 03:50:59,000
Speaker 4: all of these are narrated in one take, and it's

4162
03:50:59,040 --> 03:51:00,360
Speaker 4: very clear the voice of over per and has not

4163
03:51:00,440 --> 03:51:03,920
Speaker 4: reviewed the material at all prior to their courting, because

4164
03:51:04,000 --> 03:51:07,440
Speaker 4: they will often and sentences at the wrong spot, breaking

4165
03:51:07,480 --> 03:51:11,120
Speaker 4: the flow of the dialogue. So that is one genre.

4166
03:51:11,480 --> 03:51:17,280
Speaker 4: There is a really upset anyone titled storby Daniels ex

4167
03:51:17,400 --> 03:51:20,760
Speaker 4: Trump cartoon hen Ti causeplay Milk with eleven thousand views,

4168
03:51:21,200 --> 03:51:25,680
Speaker 4: which has the worst most creepy looking PlayStation.

4169
03:51:27,640 --> 03:51:31,240
Speaker 1: Level What is happening? Holy oh?

4170
03:51:32,040 --> 03:51:36,320
Speaker 15: He looks like a corpse, but also is little like Clinton.

4171
03:51:36,600 --> 03:51:39,720
Speaker 4: Like these these three D models are fucking in what

4172
03:51:39,800 --> 03:51:41,840
Speaker 4: looks like a college dorm room. Trump is wearing his

4173
03:51:41,960 --> 03:51:45,160
Speaker 4: suit jacket and red tie with leather shoes but nothing else.

4174
03:51:46,240 --> 03:51:49,120
Speaker 4: And something I can't show you but I found really

4175
03:51:49,200 --> 03:51:52,120
Speaker 4: upsetting is that his legs are about as twice as

4176
03:51:52,240 --> 03:51:55,720
Speaker 4: big as his body, but with tiny feet. Like his

4177
03:51:56,240 --> 03:51:57,920
Speaker 4: legs are so much wider than the rest of him,

4178
03:51:58,040 --> 03:52:01,320
Speaker 4: they're huge. It's really concerning, and I don't think it's

4179
03:52:01,360 --> 03:52:03,640
Speaker 4: on purpose. It's just like a really bad three D model.

4180
03:52:04,560 --> 03:52:05,200
Speaker 4: So weird.

4181
03:52:05,400 --> 03:52:06,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's upsetting.

4182
03:52:06,560 --> 03:52:08,080
Speaker 4: In one of the in one of the video game

4183
03:52:08,120 --> 03:52:12,000
Speaker 4: type ones, when Trump is orgasming, he says, ah bing

4184
03:52:12,240 --> 03:52:14,240
Speaker 4: bing bong bong bing bing bing.

4185
03:52:15,000 --> 03:52:15,840
Speaker 1: I just thought I should you.

4186
03:52:17,760 --> 03:52:22,960
Speaker 4: Big indeed, I now so onto live action.

4187
03:52:23,360 --> 03:52:23,840
Speaker 1: The first ive.

4188
03:52:24,040 --> 03:52:26,080
Speaker 4: The first live action one is a bit of an outlier.

4189
03:52:26,560 --> 03:52:29,440
Speaker 4: It is titled Donald Trump Parody clip Smoking and Drinking

4190
03:52:29,480 --> 03:52:32,120
Speaker 4: in the Oval Office Lol, with about two thousand and

4191
03:52:32,240 --> 03:52:35,400
Speaker 4: six hundred views. It's a woman cause playing a gender

4192
03:52:35,480 --> 03:52:38,960
Speaker 4: bent Trump and just like casually monologuing at the camera

4193
03:52:39,120 --> 03:52:41,800
Speaker 4: for like eighteen minutes. At one point she takes off

4194
03:52:41,840 --> 03:52:43,560
Speaker 4: her suit jacket and unbuttons her shirt, but not in

4195
03:52:43,680 --> 03:52:46,520
Speaker 4: like a strip teas way. At eleven minutes in she

4196
03:52:46,600 --> 03:52:50,600
Speaker 4: quote unquote rubs one out her words while continuing the

4197
03:52:50,760 --> 03:52:53,600
Speaker 4: half in character, ranting it was it's kind of a

4198
03:52:53,640 --> 03:52:55,840
Speaker 4: weird outlier, but I thought to mention it. Now onto

4199
03:52:55,920 --> 03:52:58,480
Speaker 4: the two major genres of Trump porn, the first one

4200
03:52:58,560 --> 03:53:01,880
Speaker 4: being the debate orgy Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton fucking

4201
03:53:01,920 --> 03:53:05,120
Speaker 4: Bernie Sanders and Megan Kelly parody. This one has a

4202
03:53:05,160 --> 03:53:08,880
Speaker 4: combined total of over of almost eight million.

4203
03:53:08,760 --> 03:53:10,480
Speaker 15: Views wave Bernie alone.

4204
03:53:10,880 --> 03:53:13,440
Speaker 4: This is christ This is the most popularly Donald Trump

4205
03:53:13,520 --> 03:53:15,040
Speaker 4: pornographic work on the internet.

4206
03:53:15,240 --> 03:53:16,960
Speaker 1: Oh no, the Bernie they got is kind of hot.

4207
03:53:17,440 --> 03:53:18,120
Speaker 1: I think we're good.

4208
03:53:18,400 --> 03:53:21,720
Speaker 4: This one, oddly enough, focuses on Bernie more than Trump.

4209
03:53:22,120 --> 03:53:23,720
Speaker 4: I think because the Bernie.

4210
03:53:23,400 --> 03:53:25,960
Speaker 15: Accident, because he's more fuckable.

4211
03:53:25,640 --> 03:53:28,360
Speaker 4: Because the Birdie actor did a really good job. Okay,

4212
03:53:28,680 --> 03:53:31,800
Speaker 4: and also this was this was like a live stream

4213
03:53:31,800 --> 03:53:34,600
Speaker 4: that's been edited together into a video, So the audience,

4214
03:53:34,840 --> 03:53:36,920
Speaker 4: like on the chat, was responding to Bernie Moore, so

4215
03:53:37,000 --> 03:53:38,040
Speaker 4: he got way more of the attention.

4216
03:53:38,600 --> 03:53:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, he just uses charisma.

4217
03:53:40,440 --> 03:53:45,400
Speaker 14: The sound qualities is carraboozes right now, Robert Jesus.

4218
03:53:45,440 --> 03:53:48,120
Speaker 4: The sound quality is terrible. Everyone's slowly reading off scripts

4219
03:53:48,320 --> 03:53:50,560
Speaker 4: and not even trying to hide it at all. Trump

4220
03:53:50,560 --> 03:53:52,200
Speaker 4: says he's going to build a wall around Mexico and

4221
03:53:52,320 --> 03:53:55,520
Speaker 4: install one big glory hole, which isn't how a glory

4222
03:53:55,560 --> 03:53:56,040
Speaker 4: hole works.

4223
03:53:56,320 --> 03:53:57,280
Speaker 1: No, I mean it could be.

4224
03:53:58,400 --> 03:54:00,520
Speaker 4: Hillary has asked if she thinks she might fall to

4225
03:54:00,640 --> 03:54:03,240
Speaker 4: the same infidelities as her husband, and Hillary explains that

4226
03:54:03,440 --> 03:54:05,840
Speaker 4: the Clinton family has a rule that whatever happens in

4227
03:54:05,880 --> 03:54:08,320
Speaker 4: the Oval office doesn't count unquote.

4228
03:54:08,760 --> 03:54:11,800
Speaker 1: That actually might be a Clinton family rule.

4229
03:54:12,240 --> 03:54:16,040
Speaker 4: All of the actors except for Bernie, look really uncomfortable

4230
03:54:17,760 --> 03:54:21,080
Speaker 4: the entire time. At one point they switched to like

4231
03:54:21,120 --> 03:54:23,680
Speaker 4: an unscripted Q and a section using like the live

4232
03:54:23,720 --> 03:54:27,120
Speaker 4: stream and it all reads like high school improv but

4233
03:54:27,200 --> 03:54:29,440
Speaker 4: obviously like not with high schoolers, not for high schoolers,

4234
03:54:29,840 --> 03:54:33,240
Speaker 4: but just like it is so awkward. About halfway through

4235
03:54:33,280 --> 03:54:36,080
Speaker 4: the twenty minute video, Megan Kelly asks Trump if you

4236
03:54:36,120 --> 03:54:39,400
Speaker 4: would like to improve his personal rating among married women

4237
03:54:40,160 --> 03:54:43,280
Speaker 4: as they start having sex, and then Hillary says, quote,

4238
03:54:43,480 --> 03:54:46,360
Speaker 4: I'd rather fuck the party than the enemy, and calls

4239
03:54:46,440 --> 03:54:51,560
Speaker 4: on Bernie. There is a lot of feel the burn

4240
03:54:51,680 --> 03:54:53,360
Speaker 4: jokes in here, so.

4241
03:54:53,520 --> 03:54:58,880
Speaker 1: Many, there's a couple of good there. We should We

4242
03:54:58,920 --> 03:55:01,080
Speaker 1: should figure out that burn party actor though, get them

4243
03:55:01,080 --> 03:55:05,080
Speaker 1: on the pod, honestly. Staff.

4244
03:55:06,640 --> 03:55:09,040
Speaker 4: The second most popular one is titled Erection to twenty

4245
03:55:09,120 --> 03:55:13,480
Speaker 4: sixteen Donald trumpf Fox Hillary Clinton during debate. It has

4246
03:55:13,640 --> 03:55:16,200
Speaker 4: over five million views. Once again, we start with a

4247
03:55:16,240 --> 03:55:18,600
Speaker 4: build a wall bit, but at this time it's Hillary

4248
03:55:18,640 --> 03:55:20,680
Speaker 4: who makes a move on Trump. The third most popular

4249
03:55:20,720 --> 03:55:23,080
Speaker 4: one is called cream Pie Debate. This is the closest

4250
03:55:23,120 --> 03:55:26,480
Speaker 4: one in the entire collection. It has three to a

4251
03:55:26,480 --> 03:55:32,600
Speaker 4: half million views. Much more accurate ages, but the impressions

4252
03:55:32,600 --> 03:55:35,760
Speaker 4: are really bizarre. Like they all have like weird accents.

4253
03:55:35,760 --> 03:55:38,160
Speaker 4: I can't quite tell where they're from, but they all

4254
03:55:38,240 --> 03:55:39,040
Speaker 4: sound there.

4255
03:55:38,880 --> 03:55:40,960
Speaker 1: Almost certainly somewhere in eastern Europe.

4256
03:55:41,520 --> 03:55:43,720
Speaker 4: No, they're American.

4257
03:55:44,680 --> 03:55:44,800
Speaker 7: Now.

4258
03:55:47,920 --> 03:55:49,920
Speaker 4: Trump waves around a gun on the debate stage, talking

4259
03:55:49,920 --> 03:55:52,360
Speaker 4: about Hillary wants to take away the Second Amendment. He

4260
03:55:52,520 --> 03:55:54,440
Speaker 4: points the gun at her, threatens to blow the wench

4261
03:55:54,480 --> 03:55:57,480
Speaker 4: away because she's trying to rig the election. The winch,

4262
03:55:58,080 --> 03:56:02,240
Speaker 4: the wench. That's a quote, when and calls her crooked

4263
03:56:02,320 --> 03:56:04,920
Speaker 4: Hillary with quote unquote crooked genitals.

4264
03:56:06,680 --> 03:56:07,560
Speaker 9: You know, he.

4265
03:56:08,360 --> 03:56:11,200
Speaker 4: Actual Trump might say that at some point. But you

4266
03:56:11,240 --> 03:56:12,920
Speaker 4: can kind of see how the video will develop from

4267
03:56:12,920 --> 03:56:15,320
Speaker 4: here right right now. I was not prepared for how

4268
03:56:15,400 --> 03:56:18,760
Speaker 4: racist it would get. Trump gets like this, this like

4269
03:56:19,160 --> 03:56:23,240
Speaker 4: dark dildo, and it starts screaming and growling in like

4270
03:56:23,360 --> 03:56:26,080
Speaker 4: a really upsetting fashion. There's a whole bunch of really

4271
03:56:26,160 --> 03:56:29,240
Speaker 4: racist comments. Hillary implies that she took part in all

4272
03:56:29,280 --> 03:56:32,800
Speaker 4: of the sexual growling. It's the best. It's the best

4273
03:56:32,840 --> 03:56:34,920
Speaker 4: word I could find to describe the sea.

4274
03:56:34,960 --> 03:56:36,520
Speaker 1: I think, I think I get what Garrison is.

4275
03:56:36,880 --> 03:56:40,960
Speaker 14: I was gonna say, I noted, don't expand uh yeah.

4276
03:56:41,640 --> 03:56:43,360
Speaker 4: Hillary talks about how she took part in all of

4277
03:56:43,600 --> 03:56:45,960
Speaker 4: Bill Clinton's sexual escapades and then uses a strap on

4278
03:56:46,000 --> 03:56:48,040
Speaker 4: on Donald Trump, but it's simulated. They don't actually do

4279
03:56:48,120 --> 03:56:51,080
Speaker 4: it in the clip, so minus points for that. The

4280
03:56:51,200 --> 03:56:54,520
Speaker 4: actor for Trump makes some really interesting faces, and at

4281
03:56:54,520 --> 03:56:58,280
Speaker 4: the end of the video, Hillary shoots out Trump's votes

4282
03:56:58,320 --> 03:57:02,240
Speaker 4: from her ballot box, which covers Trump's face in the

4283
03:57:04,120 --> 03:57:08,400
Speaker 4: rejected votes, which he wipes off with an American flag,

4284
03:57:08,680 --> 03:57:13,200
Speaker 4: something that multiple commenters took great offense to. Not the

4285
03:57:13,280 --> 03:57:15,760
Speaker 4: rest of the video, but the fact that he wipes

4286
03:57:15,800 --> 03:57:18,840
Speaker 4: it off with an American flag seemed to really upset

4287
03:57:18,960 --> 03:57:19,360
Speaker 4: some people.

4288
03:57:20,040 --> 03:57:20,200
Speaker 10: Now.

4289
03:57:20,400 --> 03:57:22,720
Speaker 4: The guy that made this created four other Trump themed

4290
03:57:22,760 --> 03:57:25,520
Speaker 4: porn videos, a Deep Throat Diplomacy where Trump dribes the

4291
03:57:25,560 --> 03:57:28,200
Speaker 4: president of Mexico to pay for the wall by offering

4292
03:57:28,240 --> 03:57:31,680
Speaker 4: a quote beautiful white woman who happens to be Trump's daughter, Avanka.

4293
03:57:31,960 --> 03:57:35,880
Speaker 4: He makes another Avanka one called Bobblehead butt Plug, which

4294
03:57:35,880 --> 03:57:38,360
Speaker 4: I think is pretty self explanatory. The third one is

4295
03:57:38,800 --> 03:57:42,080
Speaker 4: Trump and Obama's Daughter, which I skipped through mostly because

4296
03:57:42,080 --> 03:57:45,120
Speaker 4: it was really gross. And the last one's called Cuckold

4297
03:57:45,200 --> 03:57:48,240
Speaker 4: Trump with again three and a half million views. And

4298
03:57:48,560 --> 03:57:51,320
Speaker 4: this one has President and Obama and the Secret Service

4299
03:57:51,400 --> 03:57:54,120
Speaker 4: breaking into Trump Tower where Trump and Blaney are sleeping

4300
03:57:54,160 --> 03:57:57,040
Speaker 4: in bed, and then a cuck scene unfolds, once again

4301
03:57:57,200 --> 03:58:00,280
Speaker 4: very racist. We're nearing the end, I can I can

4302
03:58:00,280 --> 03:58:01,960
Speaker 4: see the tunnel at the end. We're now going to

4303
03:58:02,000 --> 03:58:06,280
Speaker 4: get to the last debate, one called Donald Tramp in

4304
03:58:06,360 --> 03:58:09,200
Speaker 4: the White House. This is going to be huge. With

4305
03:58:09,520 --> 03:58:11,560
Speaker 4: only a quarter of a million views, pretty low, but

4306
03:58:11,880 --> 03:58:14,720
Speaker 4: seventy percent up voted, So there you go. Now, in

4307
03:58:14,840 --> 03:58:17,680
Speaker 4: this one, Trump is doing a solo debate by himself,

4308
03:58:17,800 --> 03:58:20,160
Speaker 4: kind of predicting how he would handle the Republican primary in.

4309
03:58:20,160 --> 03:58:22,120
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty four ahead of its time.

4310
03:58:22,480 --> 03:58:24,080
Speaker 4: But in the context of the video, it's basically just

4311
03:58:24,120 --> 03:58:27,480
Speaker 4: a journalist that's interviewing him. So after some like, you know,

4312
03:58:27,760 --> 03:58:31,320
Speaker 4: very very typical haha, Trump is racist type jokes, the

4313
03:58:31,400 --> 03:58:35,240
Speaker 4: skit turns oddly poigniant, where Trump kind of starts whispering

4314
03:58:35,800 --> 03:58:39,840
Speaker 4: and says, quote, I'm using my ranting billionaire charm to

4315
03:58:39,960 --> 03:58:41,800
Speaker 4: win you over. First, I'm going to tell you that

4316
03:58:41,880 --> 03:58:44,400
Speaker 4: America is really lost and I'm the one to find it.

4317
03:58:44,840 --> 03:58:46,600
Speaker 4: And then you will be drawn to all of my

4318
03:58:46,720 --> 03:58:50,080
Speaker 4: ideas like a very special episode of Shark Tank. And

4319
03:58:50,160 --> 03:58:52,040
Speaker 4: then I will tell you how all the other candidates

4320
03:58:52,120 --> 03:58:55,000
Speaker 4: are stupid, idiotic morons, and you'll be left wondering is

4321
03:58:55,040 --> 03:58:57,560
Speaker 4: he trying to get his subrenet band or is everything

4322
03:58:57,640 --> 03:59:00,720
Speaker 4: he's saying really what he means. Now, let's have sex.

4323
03:59:00,800 --> 03:59:03,200
Speaker 4: As I whisper racist comments into your ear unquote this

4324
03:59:03,360 --> 03:59:06,440
Speaker 4: Trump actor. The hair is too orange. The hair is

4325
03:59:06,480 --> 03:59:07,040
Speaker 4: too orange.

4326
03:59:07,200 --> 03:59:08,560
Speaker 15: Everything's too orange.

4327
03:59:08,720 --> 03:59:11,720
Speaker 4: He's really orange. They're really into making him orange. But

4328
03:59:11,760 --> 03:59:14,520
Speaker 4: the hair is just way too red. So that is

4329
03:59:14,600 --> 03:59:16,960
Speaker 4: the that's the that's the like the main category, which

4330
03:59:17,000 --> 03:59:19,560
Speaker 4: is like these like debate ones. But there's a second

4331
03:59:19,640 --> 03:59:24,280
Speaker 4: category which is almost equal in numbers. And this is

4332
03:59:24,440 --> 03:59:26,840
Speaker 4: this is the last genre of work we'll be talking about,

4333
03:59:26,880 --> 03:59:29,840
Speaker 4: and it's the one I find the most telling. It's

4334
03:59:29,920 --> 03:59:33,200
Speaker 4: it's they're all a very distinct type of like amateur

4335
03:59:33,280 --> 03:59:37,840
Speaker 4: video of a man in a low quality Trump mask

4336
03:59:38,240 --> 03:59:43,840
Speaker 4: getting beaten up, downed, pegged, interrogated, or otherwise humiliated by women. Now,

4337
03:59:43,960 --> 03:59:46,480
Speaker 4: these these have anywhere from like four hundred views to

4338
03:59:46,560 --> 03:59:49,800
Speaker 4: twenty five thousand views, so they're watched less, but the

4339
03:59:49,880 --> 03:59:52,600
Speaker 4: people that are making them seem really passionate. We have

4340
03:59:52,720 --> 03:59:56,320
Speaker 4: titles like Trump gets a Donkey punched by two sexy women,

4341
03:59:56,360 --> 03:59:58,600
Speaker 4: one hundred percent Real, sixty FBS ten.

4342
03:59:58,520 --> 04:00:02,000
Speaker 15: EVP or one hundred percent Real.

4343
04:00:02,800 --> 04:00:06,360
Speaker 4: Or make America beg Again, Kick my Ass President Trump,

4344
04:00:06,560 --> 04:00:11,320
Speaker 4: and I think most evidently two beautiful femdoms humiliate, feminize,

4345
04:00:11,480 --> 04:00:18,440
Speaker 4: and peg sissy in Donald Trump mask. So, okay, do

4346
04:00:18,480 --> 04:00:20,520
Speaker 4: you want to see the collection of masks before or

4347
04:00:20,560 --> 04:00:23,120
Speaker 4: after I talk about this genre? I'm gonna save it

4348
04:00:23,160 --> 04:00:24,520
Speaker 4: for after, and it never I'm gonna save it for after.

4349
04:00:24,600 --> 04:00:28,400
Speaker 4: So I've gone through like these these three different kind

4350
04:00:28,440 --> 04:00:30,840
Speaker 4: of medium series in this in this episode, right, we

4351
04:00:30,960 --> 04:00:33,440
Speaker 4: have we have uh like the drawn art, We have

4352
04:00:33,560 --> 04:00:35,760
Speaker 4: AO three fan fic, and we have this like you know,

4353
04:00:36,200 --> 04:00:39,960
Speaker 4: more classic pornography live action stuff. And each each of

4354
04:00:40,000 --> 04:00:43,000
Speaker 4: these has different aspects that I believe are are clearly

4355
04:00:43,200 --> 04:00:45,960
Speaker 4: tied to the medium, right, like like furry stuff for

4356
04:00:46,120 --> 04:00:49,520
Speaker 4: drawn art, the largely homosexual pairings oft AO three and

4357
04:00:49,720 --> 04:00:53,520
Speaker 4: the normy hetero misogyny of classic pornography. But I'm more

4358
04:00:53,560 --> 04:00:56,240
Speaker 4: interested in when some of these kind of medium specific

4359
04:00:56,320 --> 04:00:59,080
Speaker 4: aspects intersect and how that might tell us something about

4360
04:00:59,080 --> 04:01:01,280
Speaker 4: what's really going on here. So, based on all the

4361
04:01:01,320 --> 04:01:04,160
Speaker 4: evidence I reviewed the past five days, I'm gonna split

4362
04:01:04,320 --> 04:01:08,000
Speaker 4: the Donald Trump pornographic catalog into two main kind of

4363
04:01:08,160 --> 04:01:11,680
Speaker 4: thematic sections, the two genders, if you will. First, we

4364
04:01:11,840 --> 04:01:16,120
Speaker 4: have Trump the strong man right. This is either propagated

4365
04:01:16,200 --> 04:01:19,000
Speaker 4: by like people on the right who genuinely admire Trump

4366
04:01:19,080 --> 04:01:23,280
Speaker 4: as like a dominant dictator, thus like displaying sexual submission

4367
04:01:23,360 --> 04:01:25,520
Speaker 4: to him is like a righteous duty, or like a

4368
04:01:25,600 --> 04:01:30,200
Speaker 4: sign of respect or a quest for validation. Alternatively, this

4369
04:01:30,400 --> 04:01:32,440
Speaker 4: strong men framing can also be used, and I would

4370
04:01:32,480 --> 04:01:35,360
Speaker 4: argue more perversely by liberals in some form of like

4371
04:01:35,440 --> 04:01:39,600
Speaker 4: a post irony desire for subjugation stemming from a like

4372
04:01:39,680 --> 04:01:44,560
Speaker 4: a neoliberal disenfranchisement or like neoliberal nihilism. Having a like

4373
04:01:44,640 --> 04:01:48,320
Speaker 4: a Freudian father figure you deeply despise strengthens the taboo

4374
04:01:48,320 --> 04:01:52,120
Speaker 4: aspect of repressed desire for the inherent domination of authoritarianism.

4375
04:01:52,560 --> 04:01:57,680
Speaker 4: I think the master slave kink is very common in

4376
04:01:57,720 --> 04:02:01,080
Speaker 4: the Trump AO three fix, presumably mostly written by people

4377
04:02:01,120 --> 04:02:03,280
Speaker 4: on the left, and this type of thing I think

4378
04:02:03,320 --> 04:02:06,120
Speaker 4: can be vulgarly tied to like the Lord Bondsman dialectic

4379
04:02:06,160 --> 04:02:08,280
Speaker 4: at play in this sort of politic, which is like

4380
04:02:08,400 --> 04:02:12,600
Speaker 4: defined by and desiring what you cannot be, So we

4381
04:02:12,720 --> 04:02:14,720
Speaker 4: have that plus all like the fucked up yet very

4382
04:02:15,040 --> 04:02:19,040
Speaker 4: common incest framing strengthens these kind of psychoanalytic links. But

4383
04:02:19,440 --> 04:02:22,320
Speaker 4: enough of that babble to contrast Trump the strong Man.

4384
04:02:22,600 --> 04:02:25,960
Speaker 4: The other major category is Trump the defiled, which is

4385
04:02:26,000 --> 04:02:29,520
Speaker 4: exceedingly popular on Rule thirty four AO three, and this

4386
04:02:29,680 --> 04:02:33,000
Speaker 4: kind of later category of femdom porn videos. This is

4387
04:02:33,080 --> 04:02:36,520
Speaker 4: like a revenge fantasy. It's uncaring in its embrace of

4388
04:02:36,600 --> 04:02:40,520
Speaker 4: problematic tropes so long as Trump is symbolically stripped of

4389
04:02:40,640 --> 04:02:43,880
Speaker 4: what signals his status of power. This often includes a

4390
04:02:43,960 --> 04:02:48,640
Speaker 4: misogynistic embrace of social norms that reflect authoritarian patriarchy. Trump

4391
04:02:48,760 --> 04:02:51,960
Speaker 4: is feminized mostly through actions to signal that he is

4392
04:02:52,080 --> 04:02:56,200
Speaker 4: lesser right. He's a masculated, penetrated, dominated, assaulted, and very

4393
04:02:56,280 --> 04:02:59,720
Speaker 4: often impregnated. Even death is no escape for in the

4394
04:02:59,800 --> 04:03:02,720
Speaker 4: eye after life, Jesus Christ continues the holy work of

4395
04:03:02,800 --> 04:03:07,400
Speaker 4: Trump's psychosexual humiliation. The hope is that the Catharsists will

4396
04:03:07,400 --> 04:03:10,000
Speaker 4: be found in putting the image of Trump through the

4397
04:03:10,040 --> 04:03:12,320
Speaker 4: types of things that the actual Trump has done to others,

4398
04:03:12,600 --> 04:03:15,320
Speaker 4: perhaps with some kind of perverse pleasure in this role

4399
04:03:15,400 --> 04:03:18,600
Speaker 4: reversal of now being the one to subject Trump to

4400
04:03:18,680 --> 04:03:22,160
Speaker 4: such experiences even through fiction. Now, I'm not necessarily saying

4401
04:03:22,160 --> 04:03:24,360
Speaker 4: all this stuff is bad or there are plenty of

4402
04:03:24,360 --> 04:03:26,720
Speaker 4: materials that I've reviewed that I do object to, but

4403
04:03:26,880 --> 04:03:29,240
Speaker 4: this mostly does fall under the guise of play and kink,

4404
04:03:29,320 --> 04:03:31,440
Speaker 4: which can be valid and often useful ways of sorting

4405
04:03:31,480 --> 04:03:36,800
Speaker 4: through psychosexual or psychological affairs. And obviously throughout a lot,

4406
04:03:36,920 --> 04:03:38,520
Speaker 4: if not most of these works, there is a large

4407
04:03:38,560 --> 04:03:42,320
Speaker 4: comedic element, but I think such comedy is still underpinned

4408
04:03:42,360 --> 04:03:46,080
Speaker 4: by some of these maybe deeper motivations. And to detox

4409
04:03:46,160 --> 04:03:50,360
Speaker 4: from that rant, here's a collection of really uncomfortable Trump

4410
04:03:50,560 --> 04:03:56,120
Speaker 4: mask pictures which, oh my, I have so many, I

4411
04:03:56,280 --> 04:03:59,160
Speaker 4: have so many of these. I have a whole collage,

4412
04:03:59,560 --> 04:04:00,680
Speaker 4: a whole alage of this.

4413
04:04:01,440 --> 04:04:04,680
Speaker 1: It's really I've got hr on the other line here,

4414
04:04:04,800 --> 04:04:07,000
Speaker 1: So we're gonna we're gonna actually swing over to a

4415
04:04:07,080 --> 04:04:09,640
Speaker 1: separate zoom call to talk through some of this.

4416
04:04:10,120 --> 04:04:11,000
Speaker 4: These looks so.

4417
04:04:11,360 --> 04:04:15,880
Speaker 14: Bad, it's the Iheartedaddy shirt with the horrible Trump mask.

4418
04:04:16,080 --> 04:04:19,440
Speaker 4: It's so bad. No, it's like it's weirdly trans misogynistic

4419
04:04:19,680 --> 04:04:21,600
Speaker 4: for all of all of these ones in the mask.

4420
04:04:21,680 --> 04:04:24,720
Speaker 4: It's just there's a deep he's a deep uncanny. He

4421
04:04:24,880 --> 04:04:27,200
Speaker 4: looks like he looks melting.

4422
04:04:27,440 --> 04:04:32,440
Speaker 1: David Bowie does bottom once it looks like the thin

4423
04:04:32,560 --> 04:04:33,280
Speaker 1: white Duke.

4424
04:04:33,720 --> 04:04:37,880
Speaker 4: If the thin white Duke like, oh God, got coke

4425
04:04:37,960 --> 04:04:42,320
Speaker 4: bloated or something terrifying stuff. I will I will post

4426
04:04:42,400 --> 04:04:44,560
Speaker 4: some of these mask images onto Twitter so you can

4427
04:04:44,640 --> 04:04:46,720
Speaker 4: check that on at Hungry bow Tie.

4428
04:04:46,800 --> 04:04:47,080
Speaker 7: I will.

4429
04:04:47,200 --> 04:04:50,520
Speaker 4: I will reply once this episode drops with with these

4430
04:04:50,600 --> 04:04:54,040
Speaker 4: awful with you with these awful collages I've created? Anyway, Robert,

4431
04:04:54,080 --> 04:04:57,120
Speaker 4: what what do you think about all this Trump porn again?

4432
04:04:57,160 --> 04:04:59,120
Speaker 1: I think we're all going to get fired for doing

4433
04:04:59,200 --> 04:05:04,040
Speaker 1: this episode. I think this has crossed every professional line

4434
04:05:04,080 --> 04:05:05,840
Speaker 1: that exists. But good work.

4435
04:05:05,960 --> 04:05:08,360
Speaker 15: Other than that, I was gonna say, I think yours

4436
04:05:08,680 --> 04:05:10,200
Speaker 15: serve is a really big race.

4437
04:05:10,720 --> 04:05:11,040
Speaker 9: I was.

4438
04:05:11,160 --> 04:05:12,680
Speaker 4: I was really proud I was able to sneak in

4439
04:05:12,720 --> 04:05:14,040
Speaker 4: a little bit of Hagel there at the end.

4440
04:05:14,160 --> 04:05:14,400
Speaker 9: I was.

4441
04:05:14,560 --> 04:05:14,800
Speaker 7: I was.

4442
04:05:15,000 --> 04:05:16,120
Speaker 4: I was really proud of that one.

4443
04:05:16,720 --> 04:05:18,720
Speaker 15: I can say one thing for sure, you can do

4444
04:05:18,840 --> 04:05:19,440
Speaker 15: a follow up.

4445
04:05:19,520 --> 04:05:23,720
Speaker 1: That's all of the hegel porn Really curious how much

4446
04:05:23,800 --> 04:05:24,800
Speaker 1: of that you can fight.

4447
04:05:25,400 --> 04:05:28,360
Speaker 14: What's exciting, what's exciting about this entire thing is Trump

4448
04:05:28,360 --> 04:05:32,040
Speaker 14: would fucking hate it, just like he hates all of

4449
04:05:32,200 --> 04:05:33,560
Speaker 14: his followers.

4450
04:05:33,920 --> 04:05:36,760
Speaker 4: In his core many such cases. Well, thank you for

4451
04:05:36,960 --> 04:05:39,200
Speaker 4: joining us on this deeply disturbing journey.

4452
04:05:39,680 --> 04:05:40,640
Speaker 1: I love to see it.

4453
04:05:41,000 --> 04:05:43,480
Speaker 4: Don't do this, thankfully, you only have.

4454
04:05:43,520 --> 04:05:44,080
Speaker 14: To listen to it.

4455
04:05:44,240 --> 04:05:46,280
Speaker 4: You'll you'll only have to listen to me explain it now,

4456
04:05:46,320 --> 04:05:48,400
Speaker 4: So now you don't have to fulfill this curiosity that

4457
04:05:48,480 --> 04:05:49,840
Speaker 4: I know has been bubbling in a lot of you.

4458
04:05:50,040 --> 04:05:52,680
Speaker 1: So there you are, and check back in next week.

4459
04:05:52,760 --> 04:05:56,320
Speaker 1: We'll be covering all of the best Hegelian pornography that

4460
04:05:56,880 --> 04:05:58,000
Speaker 1: the Internet can provide.

4461
04:05:58,640 --> 04:05:59,600
Speaker 15: Take a long weekend.

4462
04:06:03,080 --> 04:06:05,600
Speaker 11: Hi, everyone, it's me James, and I just wanted to

4463
04:06:05,680 --> 04:06:07,440
Speaker 11: read you this today. I'm going to put it in

4464
04:06:07,480 --> 04:06:10,200
Speaker 11: our episode this week because it's a cause that's important

4465
04:06:10,200 --> 04:06:12,640
Speaker 11: to us, and so we thought it would be something

4466
04:06:12,680 --> 04:06:14,640
Speaker 11: that might be important to you too as well. On

4467
04:06:14,720 --> 04:06:17,720
Speaker 11: the tenth of June twenty twenty four, Leonard Peltier, an

4468
04:06:17,800 --> 04:06:20,560
Speaker 11: enrolled member of the Turtle Band of Chippewa of Lakota

4469
04:06:20,640 --> 04:06:23,800
Speaker 11: and Ajibwei ancestry and the longest serving political prisoner in

4470
04:06:23,840 --> 04:06:26,840
Speaker 11: the United States, will be appearing before the US Parole

4471
04:06:26,840 --> 04:06:29,240
Speaker 11: Commission for the first time since two thousand and nine.

4472
04:06:29,960 --> 04:06:32,920
Speaker 11: He faces staunch opposition from the FBI and other law

4473
04:06:33,000 --> 04:06:37,360
Speaker 11: enforcement agencies due to having allegedly killed two FBI agents

4474
04:06:37,440 --> 04:06:39,920
Speaker 11: in a firefight on the twenty sixth of June nineteen

4475
04:06:39,920 --> 04:06:43,720
Speaker 11: seventy five, after the agents appeared on reservation land to

4476
04:06:43,840 --> 04:06:48,400
Speaker 11: execute a pretextural warrant. The initial firefight occurred during the

4477
04:06:48,600 --> 04:06:51,440
Speaker 11: quote reign of Terror on Pine Ridge in the wake

4478
04:06:51,520 --> 04:06:54,080
Speaker 11: of the occupation of Wounded Kney, a time of extreme

4479
04:06:54,200 --> 04:06:57,320
Speaker 11: violence when federal law enforcement installed a puppet tribal chair

4480
04:06:57,680 --> 04:07:02,160
Speaker 11: and was arming vigilantes who targeted and as traditionalists. Every

4481
04:07:02,200 --> 04:07:04,640
Speaker 11: since leading up to these events, as well as subsequent

4482
04:07:04,720 --> 04:07:10,160
Speaker 11: investigation and mister Peltier's extradition, trial, conviction, and sentencing, were

4483
04:07:10,240 --> 04:07:13,240
Speaker 11: characterized by gross misconduct on the part of law enforcement,

4484
04:07:13,520 --> 04:07:17,960
Speaker 11: the prosecution, and the courts. Mister Peltier's co defendants were

4485
04:07:17,960 --> 04:07:21,720
Speaker 11: separately tried and acquitted on grounds of self defense. Mister

4486
04:07:21,760 --> 04:07:25,040
Speaker 11: Peltier was railroaded and his case is tainted by discrimination

4487
04:07:25,080 --> 04:07:28,520
Speaker 11: at every level, ranging from the withholding of exculpatory evidence

4488
04:07:28,720 --> 04:07:31,400
Speaker 11: to the torture and coercion of extradition and trial witnesses,

4489
04:07:32,120 --> 04:07:34,200
Speaker 11: and from the refusal of the judge to dismiss and

4490
04:07:34,320 --> 04:07:38,240
Speaker 11: vowedly racist Dura, to the apologetic gymnastics of the courts

4491
04:07:38,240 --> 04:07:41,400
Speaker 11: affirming his convictions in the face of meritorious legal challenges

4492
04:07:41,800 --> 04:07:46,280
Speaker 11: had admitted evidence of outrageous government misdeeds. Mister Peltier has

4493
04:07:46,360 --> 04:07:49,360
Speaker 11: been in prison for more than forty eight years and

4494
04:07:49,440 --> 04:07:52,960
Speaker 11: he's almost eighty years old. He suffers from chronic and

4495
04:07:53,040 --> 04:07:57,200
Speaker 11: potentially lethal conditions for which he receives insufficient and substandard

4496
04:07:57,280 --> 04:08:01,360
Speaker 11: medical care. If you want to take acttion to hashtag

4497
04:08:01,440 --> 04:08:04,840
Speaker 11: free Lennard Peltier, you can call the US Parole Commission

4498
04:08:04,960 --> 04:08:10,640
Speaker 11: at two zero two three four six seven zero zero zero,

4499
04:08:11,160 --> 04:08:12,960
Speaker 11: and if you'd like to find more information on how

4500
04:08:13,040 --> 04:08:15,080
Speaker 11: to support, you can go to this r L. It's

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04:08:15,560 --> 04:08:20,200
Speaker 11: h T T P colon slash slash n d n

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04:08:20,760 --> 04:08:27,480
Speaker 11: C O dot c c slash Free Leonard Peltier. That's

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04:08:27,720 --> 04:08:30,520
Speaker 11: f ir E E L E O n A R

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04:08:30,680 --> 04:08:34,400
Speaker 11: D P E L t I E R, or you

4505
04:08:34,480 --> 04:08:37,080
Speaker 11: can follow n d N Collective on social media for

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04:08:37,200 --> 04:08:40,600
Speaker 11: more ways to support him, more information on Lennard Peltier.

4507
04:08:40,720 --> 04:08:43,920
Speaker 11: Listen to Margaret's podcast on the Lakota Nation, a read

4508
04:08:43,960 --> 04:08:46,680
Speaker 11: in the Spirit of the Crazy Horse by Peter Mathison.

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04:08:49,840 --> 04:08:53,000
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week

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04:08:53,080 --> 04:08:54,960
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

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04:08:55,600 --> 04:08:57,920
Speaker 15: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

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04:08:58,160 --> 04:09:00,800
Speaker 14: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4513
04:09:00,880 --> 04:09:04,000
Speaker 14: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4514
04:09:04,040 --> 04:09:07,200
Speaker 14: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

4515
04:09:07,240 --> 04:09:09,880
Speaker 14: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at

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04:09:09,960 --> 04:09:13,160
Speaker 14: Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,