WEBVTT - The Virgin and Thomas Seymour 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.600 Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:12.320 and Mild from Aaron Mankie. Listener Discretion advised. It was 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.760 the middle of the night and a spaniel began barking, 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.680 and then there was a gunshot. The barking stopped. The 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.000 household at Hampton Court, the palace of the eleven year 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.720 old King Edward the sixth of England, began to rouse 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:32.040 at the noise. Something was happening. Someone was trying to 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:37.280 break into the King's bedchamber, and when his dog began barking, 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:41.440 waking up the household, the intruder, in his panic, had 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:47.400 shot the dog. It was January sixteenth, fifteen forty nine, 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.800 and as the scene came into focus, the truth seemed 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:57.160 almost impossible to understand. The intruder who had murdered the 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.040 king's beloved spaniel, who seemed to have been attempting to 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:06.360 at best kidnap the King himself, wasn't a random knave 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:11.839 or criminal. It was the boy's uncle, Thomas Seymour, Lord 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:18.759 High Admiral. For months, Thomas had been making himself more 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:24.880 and more unpopular with his insubordination and obvious ambition, But 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:30.040 now things had gone too far to ignore. Thomas was 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.360 taken to the Tower of London and an interrogation began 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:40.480 to discover just how deep his treason went. This investigation 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:47.080 revealed a chilling relationship between Thomas Seymour and the King's 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:52.040 older sister, Elizabeth, the woman that we now know as 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.760 Queen Elizabeth the First, But back then she was just 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.680 Lady Elizabeth, an orphaned teenager whose path to the throne 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:06.760 seemed unlikely, and now she had become implicated in a 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.600 scheme that would threaten her honor, her virtue, her freedom, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:18.200 and her entire future. The relationship between Thomas Seymour and 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:23.840 Elizabeth is one of the less discussed aspects of Elizabeth's long, 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.480 fascinating life, but the relationship represents one of the first 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:34.400 gauntlets the future Queen faced in dealing with the Thomas situation. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.840 She would be forced to show her ability as a 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:42.280 stateswoman and a diplomat while still a teenager, and the 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:47.399 entire saga would reinforce a belief that Elizabeth held since childhood, 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.200 a fundamental perspective she would maintain for the rest of 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:56.520 her life that marriage was a deadly and dangerous business. 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:08.120 I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is noble blood. Katherine Parr 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.280 was King Henry the Eighth's sixth and final wife, and 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.480 by the time he was wooing her, she wasn't really interested. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.799 Katherine was in her early thirties and she had already 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:26.160 been twice widowed two dead husbands after two arranged marriages. 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.520 She had been hoping that her third husband might be 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:34.720 someone she loved, someone she was sexually attracted to. Even 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.400 though Henry was the King of England, he wasn't all 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.120 that attractive of a prospect. He was over fifty, with 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.920 an open oozing ulcer on his left leg from a 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:50.920 jousting injury, and he had beheaded two of his wives already. 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:56.480 Katherine would have much preferred to marry someone like the handsome, 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:01.880 incredibly charming Thomas Seymour. She prayed at night that the 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:06.200 King's attention would turn to someone else, but alas it 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:10.240 did not, And so because she had prayed that Henry 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.520 would change his mind and he didn't, Katherine understood that 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.400 marrying the king was God's will, whether she liked it 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:23.200 or not. The historian Elizabeth Norton describes the situation I 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:29.480 think quite well as Catherine accepting quote a living martyrdom. 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.840 Katherine and Henry were married, and Catherine became not only 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.960 the queen but also stepmother to Henry's three living children, 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.880 all from different wives. The oldest was only a few 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:47.480 years younger than Katherine herself, Mary the justifiably dour daughter 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.920 of Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon, but Henry's younger 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.800 two children were more in need of maternal care. There 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.240 was nine year old Elizabeth, the daughter of the beheaded 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.279 Anne Boleyn, and the six year old Edward, son of 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:08.200 Jane Seymour. Both Anne and Edward's mothers had died when 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.719 they were too young to remember them, and Catherine, as 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:16.880 their new stepmother, did a genuinely admirable job bringing them 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.360 back into the family fold and giving them the sense 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:25.280 of comfort and normalcy that was severely lacking from both 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:31.440 of their early lives, especially from Elizabeth's. Elizabeth's mother, Anne Boleyn, 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.320 is a tragic and fascinating figure, one we've discussed on 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.400 this podcast in our episode in the series on the 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.080 Wives of Henry the Eighth. But to give the very 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.560 very short version, Henry had been married to Catherine of 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.880 Aragon for almost twenty years with only a daughter to 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.839 show for it. When he fell madly in love with 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.800 Anne boln Henry became convinced that his lack of an 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.479 air was God frowning on his marriage with Catherine, and 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.760 he ultimately broke from the pope in order to annul 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:10.159 the marriage and Mary the beguiling Anne. Anne was flirtatious 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:15.279 and opinionated, but as the outside pressures on their marriage mounted, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.480 anger from Catholic institutions, from Catherine of Aragon's royal family 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:25.839 members abroad, from disapproving subjects, the things Henry had loved 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:31.839 about Anne began to curdle. Her outspoken flirtatiousness became grading 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.320 and presumptuous, and he blamed her for what was beginning 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:40.600 to seem like a mistake, especially when she gave birth 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.279 not to the son she had promised, but to a 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:50.760 little girl, Elizabeth. Eventually, Anne's enemies managed to put together 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.680 a case against her, accusing her of adultery and incest, 0:06:55.279 --> 0:07:01.040 almost certainly all false, and Anne was beheaded before little 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:06.159 Elizabeth had even turned three. When Anne went from queen 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:12.560 to trader, little Elizabeth's position changed two. Apparently, the precocious 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:18.160 little Toddler asked her governess quote, howhaps it yesterday Lady 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:23.920 Princess and today but Lady Elizabeth. This episode is not 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.640 about Henry the eighth, but just to give the basic 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.360 context so we can all be caught up. After Anne, 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:35.280 Henry married one of her ladies in waiting, Jane Seymour, 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:40.760 who finally gave Henry his long awaited son, Edward. Jane 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:45.760 died and then a few wives later Henry married Catherine Parr, 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.480 who stayed with him until his death, at which point 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.840 his then nine year old son Edward became King Edward 0:07:53.880 --> 0:08:00.720 the sixth. Historically speaking, when a child becomes king of a kingdom, 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.440 it's not a good thing, unless, of course, you happen 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.600 to be a family member of that child and you 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:12.520 get the opportunity to step into a power vacuum. As 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.880 I mentioned, Edward was the son of Jane Seymour, who 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.920 tragically died two weeks after he was born. But Jane 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.320 had brothers, and now those men were the uncles of 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:30.400 the King of England. Jane's oldest brother was named Edward Seymour. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.760 I want to give a brief apology for all of 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:38.480 the repeated names in this slightly convoluted episode before we 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.600 get our bearings. But the good news is you don't 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:45.120 really need to know anything about Edward Seymour. What you 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.480 need to know is that he was the all star 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.840 of the family, considered brilliant from an early age, and 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:56.600 when his tiny preteen nephew became king, Edward Seymour found 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.760 a way to make himself Lord Protector, the person who 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.880 would actually be ruling the kingdom. And like so many 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:11.439 families with overachieving kids, there was also another son, Thomas Seymour. 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.800 Thomas was eight years younger than his brother, and though 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.760 it never seemed like he was a disappointment, everybody pretty 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.280 much agreed he wasn't as promising as his older brother. 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:28.560 Thomas grew up to be good looking, adventure seeking and arrogant. 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.960 He believed he was destined for great things and resented 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.920 the fact that his brother was the one who ended 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:41.079 up behind the levers of power. By the time King 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.640 Henry the Eighth died, Thomas was still unmarried in his 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:49.400 late thirties and a very eligible bachelor. After all, he 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:54.040 was handsome and charismatic, the uncle of the king, who 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.240 incidentally had just made him a baron, and the brother 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:02.240 of the guy actually ruling the kingdom. Thomas wanted to 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.880 make his way up in the world, and the way 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.560 he was going to do it was by marrying a 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:13.280 powerful woman. According to some sources, Thomas's first choices were 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:18.239 Henry the Eighth's daughters Mary and Elizabeth, which was laughably 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.439 presumptuous of him. Mary and Elizabeth were at this point 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.160 first and second in line for the throne, respectively. They 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:30.160 were important political tools who could be married to international 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:35.120 princes for diplomatic reasons. For context, Mary Tudor would go 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.360 on to eventually marry the King of Spain. She wasn't 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.480 going to marry some guy who was just made a 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:47.040 baron five minutes ago. Though some historians question the legitimacy 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:52.120 of these letters, Apparently, Thomas Seymour wrote to the thirteen 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.360 year old Elizabeth less than a month after the death 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:59.520 of her father to propose. He wrote, quote, I dare 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.520 not tell you of the fire which consumes me and 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.319 the impatience with which I yearn to show you my devotion. 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.839 He goes on to say that her kindness would quote 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.160 make the happiness of a man who will adore you 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:20.080 till death. If the letters are authentic. Elizabeth replied incredibly diplomatically. 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.880 She wrote, quote, I confess to you that your letter, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.720 all elegant as it is, has very much surprised me. 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.040 For besides that neither my age nor my inclination allows 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.040 me to think of marriage. I could never have believed 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.720 that anyone would have spoken to me of nuptials at 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.240 a time when I ought to think of nothing but 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:47.080 sorrow for the death of my father. What Thomas was 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.600 probably all too aware of was that, according to Henry 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.680 the Eighth's will, if Elizabeth was going to get married 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.400 at all, it would need to be approved by the Council, 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.920 or else she would forfeit her inheritance and place it 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:04.000 in the line of succession. Maybe he believed that seducing 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:07.360 her would be the first step to getting the council 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.600 to approve, or maybe naively he assumed that they would. 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.640 Whatever he believed, he was wrong on all counts. Elizabeth 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.439 turned him down, and when Thomas did eventually bring up 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.560 his desire to marry one of Henry's daughters in a 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:28.280 council meeting, he was met with abject refusal. And so 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.120 if Thomas could not marry the daughter of a king, 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:36.360 he resigned himself to marrying the former wife of one. 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:41.520 Catherine Parr was thirty four years old when her third husband, 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.960 Henry the Eighth, died, and she was still, by all accounts, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.920 a beautiful woman. She had thick, auburn hair and an 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:53.440 excellent figure, clear skin, apparently thanks to her habit of 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:58.080 bathing in milk. Thomas picked up where he had left 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.959 off before her third marriage, and though her husband had 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.240 only died a few weeks prior, soon allegedly the pair 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:11.800 were meeting in secret for stolen kisses. That spring, just 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.520 a few months after the death of her husband, Katherine 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:21.720 Parr and Thomas Seymour were secretly married. For young Elizabeth, 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.720 Katherine Parr was the closest thing to a mother that 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.120 she had ever had. Elizabeth had been nine years old 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.520 when Catherine became her stepmother, and her life up until 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:35.720 that point had been pretty tumultuous. As I mentioned, Elizabeth 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.880 wasn't even three when her mother died, and over the 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.120 next several years, her father would marry three more times. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:48.360 Two of those wives would die, one beheaded. Elizabeth would 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.920 spend her childhood bouncing around from various houses and households. 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.480 Her father seemingly forgetting she existed for stretches of time. 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.840 Katherine Parr gave her a sense of normalcy. Catherine advocated 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.920 to Henry the eighth on behalf of his daughters and 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.800 helped bring them back into the family fold, and Elizabeth 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.839 and Catherine were in many ways kindred spirits. They were 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:19.280 both brilliant and academic, interested in writing and debating new ideas. 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:24.080 When Elizabeth was just eleven, she translated a French poem 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.520 to English and hand embroidered a book cover with her 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.560 stepmother's initials to give her as a gift, and Elizabeth 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:36.880 would also translate Catherine's own writings her book Prayers or Meditations, 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:42.400 into French, Italian, and Latin. It must have been disorienting 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.720 for young Elizabeth when her father died. She was now orphaned, 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.280 and not just that the younger brother she had grown 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.479 close to had also all but disappeared from her life overnight, 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:59.480 having been plunged into the rarefied bubble of kinghood. But 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:04.440 Katherine warmly extended an invitation to Elizabeth to come live 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.240 with her in her new household, and so Elizabeth went 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:16.040 with her stepmother outside the city to her manor in Chelsea. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:20.160 Not everyone had been happy that Catherine Parr had secretly 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.280 married Thomas Seymour. It had only been months since King 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.960 Henry died, and Thomas had not gotten permission from the 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.280 King or from the Council for the match. Both Katherine 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.480 and Thomas knew it was a less than decorous decision. 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.800 Thomas actually embarked on a strategy that feels like something 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.920 a child would do. After he had already secretly married Catherine, 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.600 he went to both his nephew and brother, asking them 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:53.560 for their help in trying to arrange a match. They 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:58.680 both reacted less enthusiastically than Thomas would have liked, which 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:04.120 meant the entire place pretty much backfired. Mary Tutor, Catherine's 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:09.320 other step daughter, Elizabeth's half sister, was scandalized that Catherine 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:13.800 had gotten married so quickly after Henry's death. Mary actually 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.440 asked Elizabeth to come live with her and not with 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:23.680 the clearly sinful, lustful Catherine. But Catherine Parr was in 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.760 love and Elizabeth, by all accounts, was happy for her 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:36.360 until things became more complicated. That summer. Catherine's husband, Thomas Seymour, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.480 was the lord and master of her estate, which he 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.720 took advantage of almost immediately after the wedding, by withdrawing 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:48.680 two thousand pounds nearly two million today from her coffers 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.520 in less than three months, and by carrying the keys 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:57.000 to Chelsea Manor so he could unlock any of its doors. 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:02.640 Sometime in late May or early June, Elizabeth was lying 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.359 in bed early in the morning when she heard a 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:09.600 key enter and turn in the lock. The curtains around 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:14.120 her bed were pulled back, revealing Thomas Seymour, her new 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:20.520 almost stepfather, a man twenty five years her senior. Elizabeth 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.199 was wearing only a night dress, and she tried to 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.480 pull her sheets up to cover herself, while Thomas smiled 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:32.080 and said good Morrow, gesturing like he was playfully about 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.639 to pounce onto the bed. He was still wearing his 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.960 night clothes, described as quote bare legged in his slippers, 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.480 Elizabeth moved away from him in bed, so quote he 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.960 could not come at her. According to historian Tracy Boorman, 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:53.480 quote Elizabeth was like forbidden fruit for him. He was 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.320 very much drawn to power. Knowing that she was Henry 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.280 the eighth's daughter and she was under his roof was 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.280 pretty irresistible for Thomas. For him, it was a game. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.880 Elizabeth made it a point to start waking up early 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.320 so she would be out of bed by the time 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.919 her stepfather might arrive for his unwelcome good mornings. The 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.680 next time he came, she was already out of bed, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.760 but she wasn't dressed yet, still wearing her nightgown, and 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.119 when she turned away from him, he smacked her quote 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:32.240 familiarly on the butt. Thomas was a mercurial, controlling person. 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.160 At some point during the summer, Thomas found the door 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.200 to his wife's chamber closed, right before a servant came 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.639 out carrying a basket of coal. Thomas began screaming in 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:50.160 a jealous rage, accusing Catherine Parr of infidelity, although later 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:54.040 he would claim that he was just joking. But joking 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.960 or not, he was a man that no one in 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:02.360 the household wanted to anger. For many faults. It seemed 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.800 that Catherine remained madly in love with him, either unaware 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.800 or in denial about the attention he was paying to 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:16.240 her stepdaughter. I want to stop here and point out 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.480 on a personal note, how strange I find some of 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:25.320 the writing about Elizabeth and Thomas Seymour. Even in modern writing, 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:31.000 you'd be surprised how often Elizabeth is described as flirtatious 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:36.719 and encouraging. Her feelings about Thomas Seymour quote complicated. A 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:41.280 common narrative is that young Elizabeth had a crush on 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.480 the dashing, older Thomas, but then he takes things too 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.600 far in a way that she knew could be damaging 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:53.800 to her reputation. I'm not trying to do any revisionist history, 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:57.640 and I'm certainly not one to shy away from how 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:03.000 complicated relationships can be. And though Elizabeth was thirteen at 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.879 this time, for a princess in the fifteenth century, it 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.439 would have been an early but not unthinkable age for 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:15.800 society to deem her as marriageable. And it's incredibly plausible 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.200 that a young, sheltered girl might have had a crush 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:25.000 on a handsome older man paying her attention. But all 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.800 of that said, I cannot wrap my head around a 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:33.040 version of the story that seems like Elizabeth was encouraging 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.919 Thomas in any way. She politely but firmly rejected his 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:42.800 marriage proposal before he married Catherine Parr, and then when 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.960 he was married to her stepmother, and he came into 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.680 her bedchamber when they were in the same household. Everything 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:54.280 Elizabeth did seems to indicate to me that his behavior 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.520 was not welcome. In one book I read, the author 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:03.360 relays that Elizabeth lifted her sheet to cover herself when 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.800 Thomas came into her room and tried to move away 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.800 from him. But then the author concedes that she didn't 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.960 leave the bed, which the author interprets as some sort 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:20.160 of tacit sanction. To me, that scene reads very clearly 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.040 as a young woman trying her best to cover herself 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:28.080 up in her bedchamber and not leave the bed so 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.800 she wouldn't be more exposed or closer to where her 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:37.520 creepy stepfather was standing. Despite the fact that Elizabeth was 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.680 the daughter of a king, Thomas Seymour was an incredibly 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.480 powerful person. In her young life, she was living in 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.399 his house. He was brother to the Lord Protector and 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.080 uncle to the current king. He was married to her 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:58.600 beloved stepmother. Even from a young age, Elizabeth was masterful 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:04.240 at diplomatic rediss and preservations of ego, and I find 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:07.720 it a little astonishing the degree to which some accounts 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:12.600 see certain behavior as flirtatious, which come across to me 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:18.000 very clearly as merely polite and even if she were 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:22.600 quote flirtatious, whatever that means, it would have been flirtation 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:27.959 from a sheltered, naive, thirteen year old girl in response 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:32.560 to the attentions of the incredibly forward man twenty five 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.200 years her senior, who also happened to be the master 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:40.560 of the house Elizabeth lived in. I always hesitate to 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:46.240 use modern terminology to historical figures, but the word grooming 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:52.040 did come to mind reading about their relationship. On one occasion, 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:56.160 Thomas actually climbed into Elizabeth's bed while she was still sleeping, 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:00.359 even though her governess, kat Ashley, was present in the room. 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.320 When Elizabeth woke up, she tried to get away from 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:08.000 her stepfather in the bed, pulling the sheets up around her. 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.880 A writer notes that quote she did not struggle as 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:14.720 her visitor reached down to kiss her where she lay, 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:19.520 which to me reads as a little conciliatory, given that 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.359 Elizabeth was a thirteen year old girl who just woke 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.959 up to find the adult man with a bad temper 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.440 and an incredible amount of power over her inches away 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:34.280 from her face. Even to kat Ashley, who was charmed 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.320 by Thomas and thought of him as a friend, thought 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:41.080 that that behavior was crossing a line. According to her, 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:44.760 she cried go away for shame, but Thomas ignored her. 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.800 Kat would help Elizabeth wake up earlier so that she 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:53.400 could get fully dressed before Thomas stopped by, which, as 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:58.480 luck would have it, always stopped his little games. When 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:02.560 Elizabeth was dressed and reading before Thomas came to her room, 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:05.679 he would just say good morning from the hallway and 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:10.400 keep on walking. The spanks and tickles and kisses were 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:14.960 only for when she was in her nightgown. The most 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:19.720 incendiary incident came the following autumn. Elizabeth was in the 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:25.280 garden with Catherine Parr when Thomas approached, his dagger unsheathed, 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:30.040 visible in the light. What happens next is frankly a 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:35.440 little difficult for me to understand. But Catherine held Elizabeth 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:41.040 while Thomas cut Elizabeth's gown into a hundred pieces, leaving 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:43.800 her to clutch at the pieces of fabric around her 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:48.560 body to maintain her modesty. Why was Catherine engaging with 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:54.879 Thomas's malicious, scandalous little quote game. I think, like so 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:58.800 many anecdotes from history, we can imagine it playing out 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:03.200 in several different way ways. Maybe seeing the knife drawn 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:06.960 Elizabeth clutched her stepmother, and the two of them were 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:11.720 frozen in fear together, unable to challenge Thomas wielding a 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:16.600 weapon cutting Elizabeth's dress away. Or maybe on the other 0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:19.880 end of the spectrum, Catherine was so madly in love 0:25:19.960 --> 0:25:23.440 with Thomas that she convinced herself that it all was 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:28.040 just some fun little game, and she willingly held Elizabeth 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:32.680 down while Thomas cut her clothes off. However, it happened 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:37.320 when Elizabeth ran back to her governess, she reported that 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:41.720 Catherine had been holding her while quote my lord did 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:46.840 so dress it. Apparently Catherine was also involved in some 0:25:46.920 --> 0:25:51.399 of the other quote tickling games that Thomas engaged in 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:55.840 with Elizabeth. I can't explain why she would have been 0:25:55.960 --> 0:26:00.960 enabling such clearly line crossing behavior, except but maybe she 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.760 was so deeply in denial that she needed to create 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:08.200 a narrative for herself that it really was just all 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:13.760 a harmless wrung. Thomas was also a very manipulative person, 0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:17.760 aware of how much control he had over Elizabeth and 0:26:17.880 --> 0:26:23.960 her reputation, clearly relishing it. Kat Ashley reported being summoned 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:29.000 by Katherine Parr one afternoon. To her surprise, Catherine was 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:33.879 furious with her. Thomas had reported to Catherine that he 0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:38.720 had seen Elizabeth through a gallery window embracing a man. 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:42.679 Of course, that type of scandal was beyond the pale, 0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:48.520 and as her governess, Kat was responsible for properly supervising Elizabeth. 0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:52.800 To me, it seems less likely that Elizabeth would have 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:57.240 been kissing an unidentified man while clearly visible in the window, 0:26:57.800 --> 0:27:02.840 and more likely that Tom was exercising his control over 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:07.199 both his wife and his stepdaughter in telling Catherine what 0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:14.040 he allegedly saw. Catherine must have on some level suspected 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:17.639 what was happening, but one day she got the proof 0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:24.800 even she couldn't ignore. Catherine came upon Thomas and Elizabeth embracing. 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:29.159 We don't know what happened next, whether Thomas tried to 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:35.200 justify or defend herself, whether Catherine blamed him or braided Elizabeth, 0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:41.240 but Elizabeth's time in Catherine's house was over. Catherine by 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:44.960 this point was pregnant by Thomas, a surprise to everyone 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:48.119 given that she was thirty five and had been married 0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:51.840 three times but never before had had a child, and 0:27:52.040 --> 0:27:55.520 she was planning on going to Sudley Castle to rest 0:27:55.640 --> 0:27:58.240 before giving birth and to get away from the risk 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:03.680 of the plague, Sabeth needed somewhere else to stay. Catherine 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:08.199 sent Elizabeth to live in Herefordshire under the charge of 0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:11.560 Sir Anthony Denny and his wife, who was the sister 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:17.200 of Elizabeth's governess, kat Ashley. Was she trying to protect 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:21.240 Elizabeth and her reputation in getting her away from Thomas. 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.840 Surely Catherine understood what it would mean for Elizabeth's future 0:28:26.359 --> 0:28:28.800 if she had already had a man in her bed. 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:35.399 Or was Catherine angry and punishing Elizabeth sending her into exile. 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:38.880 We know that Catherine had already turned her anger on 0:28:39.040 --> 0:28:44.040 kat Ashley for failing to properly supervise Elizabeth, and it 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:46.800 seems to me as though Katherine knew that kat was 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:50.120 the one person in the situation that she could blame. 0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:54.080 After all, better to get angry at a governess than 0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:57.680 fully reckon with what type of man her husband was, 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:02.000 or get angry at the fourteen year old girl manipulated 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:06.040 by a forty year old man. I wish we knew 0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:09.680 what Catherine was thinking and feeling. I wish we knew 0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:14.239 what Elizabeth was feeling. But I imagine as Elizabeth was 0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:17.600 cast out from the home of the woman who had 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:21.440 really acted as her mother for most of her young life. 0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:26.720 They must have both been heartbroken. Katherine and Elizabeth would 0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:31.160 never see each other again. In autumn of fifteen forty eight, 0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:34.959 Katherine gave birth to a baby girl, but she immediately 0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:39.600 became ill with properreal fever. Thomas was with Catherine at 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:43.040