Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankie. Listener Discretion advised. It was
Speaker 1: the middle of the night and a spaniel began barking,
Speaker 1: and then there was a gunshot. The barking stopped. The
Speaker 1: household at Hampton Court, the palace of the eleven year
Speaker 1: old King Edward the sixth of England, began to rouse
Speaker 1: at the noise. Something was happening. Someone was trying to
Speaker 1: break into the King's bedchamber, and when his dog began barking,
Speaker 1: waking up the household, the intruder, in his panic, had
Speaker 1: shot the dog. It was January sixteenth, fifteen forty nine,
Speaker 1: and as the scene came into focus, the truth seemed
Speaker 1: almost impossible to understand. The intruder who had murdered the
Speaker 1: king's beloved spaniel, who seemed to have been attempting to
Speaker 1: at best kidnap the King himself, wasn't a random knave
Speaker 1: or criminal. It was the boy's uncle, Thomas Seymour, Lord
Speaker 1: High Admiral. For months, Thomas had been making himself more
Speaker 1: and more unpopular with his insubordination and obvious ambition, But
Speaker 1: now things had gone too far to ignore. Thomas was
Speaker 1: taken to the Tower of London and an interrogation began
Speaker 1: to discover just how deep his treason went. This investigation
Speaker 1: revealed a chilling relationship between Thomas Seymour and the King's
Speaker 1: older sister, Elizabeth, the woman that we now know as
Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth the First, But back then she was just
Speaker 1: Lady Elizabeth, an orphaned teenager whose path to the throne
Speaker 1: seemed unlikely, and now she had become implicated in a
Speaker 1: scheme that would threaten her honor, her virtue, her freedom,
Speaker 1: and her entire future. The relationship between Thomas Seymour and
Speaker 1: Elizabeth is one of the less discussed aspects of Elizabeth's long,
Speaker 1: fascinating life, but the relationship represents one of the first
Speaker 1: gauntlets the future Queen faced in dealing with the Thomas situation.
Speaker 1: She would be forced to show her ability as a
Speaker 1: stateswoman and a diplomat while still a teenager, and the
Speaker 1: entire saga would reinforce a belief that Elizabeth held since childhood,
Speaker 1: a fundamental perspective she would maintain for the rest of
Speaker 1: her life that marriage was a deadly and dangerous business.
Speaker 1: I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is noble blood. Katherine Parr
Speaker 1: was King Henry the Eighth's sixth and final wife, and
Speaker 1: by the time he was wooing her, she wasn't really interested.
Speaker 1: Katherine was in her early thirties and she had already
Speaker 1: been twice widowed two dead husbands after two arranged marriages.
Speaker 1: She had been hoping that her third husband might be
Speaker 1: someone she loved, someone she was sexually attracted to. Even
Speaker 1: though Henry was the King of England, he wasn't all
Speaker 1: that attractive of a prospect. He was over fifty, with
Speaker 1: an open oozing ulcer on his left leg from a
Speaker 1: jousting injury, and he had beheaded two of his wives already.
Speaker 1: Katherine would have much preferred to marry someone like the handsome,
Speaker 1: incredibly charming Thomas Seymour. She prayed at night that the
Speaker 1: King's attention would turn to someone else, but alas it
Speaker 1: did not, And so because she had prayed that Henry
Speaker 1: would change his mind and he didn't, Katherine understood that
Speaker 1: marrying the king was God's will, whether she liked it
Speaker 1: or not. The historian Elizabeth Norton describes the situation I
Speaker 1: think quite well as Catherine accepting quote a living martyrdom.
Speaker 1: Katherine and Henry were married, and Catherine became not only
Speaker 1: the queen but also stepmother to Henry's three living children,
Speaker 1: all from different wives. The oldest was only a few
Speaker 1: years younger than Katherine herself, Mary the justifiably dour daughter
Speaker 1: of Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon, but Henry's younger
Speaker 1: two children were more in need of maternal care. There
Speaker 1: was nine year old Elizabeth, the daughter of the beheaded
Speaker 1: Anne Boleyn, and the six year old Edward, son of
Speaker 1: Jane Seymour. Both Anne and Edward's mothers had died when
Speaker 1: they were too young to remember them, and Catherine, as
Speaker 1: their new stepmother, did a genuinely admirable job bringing them
Speaker 1: back into the family fold and giving them the sense
Speaker 1: of comfort and normalcy that was severely lacking from both
Speaker 1: of their early lives, especially from Elizabeth's. Elizabeth's mother, Anne Boleyn,
Speaker 1: is a tragic and fascinating figure, one we've discussed on
Speaker 1: this podcast in our episode in the series on the
Speaker 1: Wives of Henry the Eighth. But to give the very
Speaker 1: very short version, Henry had been married to Catherine of
Speaker 1: Aragon for almost twenty years with only a daughter to
Speaker 1: show for it. When he fell madly in love with
Speaker 1: Anne boln Henry became convinced that his lack of an
Speaker 1: air was God frowning on his marriage with Catherine, and
Speaker 1: he ultimately broke from the pope in order to annul
Speaker 1: the marriage and Mary the beguiling Anne. Anne was flirtatious
Speaker 1: and opinionated, but as the outside pressures on their marriage mounted,
Speaker 1: anger from Catholic institutions, from Catherine of Aragon's royal family
Speaker 1: members abroad, from disapproving subjects, the things Henry had loved
Speaker 1: about Anne began to curdle. Her outspoken flirtatiousness became grading
Speaker 1: and presumptuous, and he blamed her for what was beginning
Speaker 1: to seem like a mistake, especially when she gave birth
Speaker 1: not to the son she had promised, but to a
Speaker 1: little girl, Elizabeth. Eventually, Anne's enemies managed to put together
Speaker 1: a case against her, accusing her of adultery and incest,
Speaker 1: almost certainly all false, and Anne was beheaded before little
Speaker 1: Elizabeth had even turned three. When Anne went from queen
Speaker 1: to trader, little Elizabeth's position changed two. Apparently, the precocious
Speaker 1: little Toddler asked her governess quote, howhaps it yesterday Lady
Speaker 1: Princess and today but Lady Elizabeth. This episode is not
Speaker 1: about Henry the eighth, but just to give the basic
Speaker 1: context so we can all be caught up. After Anne,
Speaker 1: Henry married one of her ladies in waiting, Jane Seymour,
Speaker 1: who finally gave Henry his long awaited son, Edward. Jane
Speaker 1: died and then a few wives later Henry married Catherine Parr,
Speaker 1: who stayed with him until his death, at which point
Speaker 1: his then nine year old son Edward became King Edward
Speaker 1: the sixth. Historically speaking, when a child becomes king of a kingdom,
Speaker 1: it's not a good thing, unless, of course, you happen
Speaker 1: to be a family member of that child and you
Speaker 1: get the opportunity to step into a power vacuum. As
Speaker 1: I mentioned, Edward was the son of Jane Seymour, who
Speaker 1: tragically died two weeks after he was born. But Jane
Speaker 1: had brothers, and now those men were the uncles of
Speaker 1: the King of England. Jane's oldest brother was named Edward Seymour.
Speaker 1: I want to give a brief apology for all of
Speaker 1: the repeated names in this slightly convoluted episode before we
Speaker 1: get our bearings. But the good news is you don't
Speaker 1: really need to know anything about Edward Seymour. What you
Speaker 1: need to know is that he was the all star
Speaker 1: of the family, considered brilliant from an early age, and
Speaker 1: when his tiny preteen nephew became king, Edward Seymour found
Speaker 1: a way to make himself Lord Protector, the person who
Speaker 1: would actually be ruling the kingdom. And like so many
Speaker 1: families with overachieving kids, there was also another son, Thomas Seymour.
Speaker 1: Thomas was eight years younger than his brother, and though
Speaker 1: it never seemed like he was a disappointment, everybody pretty
Speaker 1: much agreed he wasn't as promising as his older brother.
Speaker 1: Thomas grew up to be good looking, adventure seeking and arrogant.
Speaker 1: He believed he was destined for great things and resented
Speaker 1: the fact that his brother was the one who ended
Speaker 1: up behind the levers of power. By the time King
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth died, Thomas was still unmarried in his
Speaker 1: late thirties and a very eligible bachelor. After all, he
Speaker 1: was handsome and charismatic, the uncle of the king, who
Speaker 1: incidentally had just made him a baron, and the brother
Speaker 1: of the guy actually ruling the kingdom. Thomas wanted to
Speaker 1: make his way up in the world, and the way
Speaker 1: he was going to do it was by marrying a
Speaker 1: powerful woman. According to some sources, Thomas's first choices were
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth's daughters Mary and Elizabeth, which was laughably
Speaker 1: presumptuous of him. Mary and Elizabeth were at this point
Speaker 1: first and second in line for the throne, respectively. They
Speaker 1: were important political tools who could be married to international
Speaker 1: princes for diplomatic reasons. For context, Mary Tudor would go
Speaker 1: on to eventually marry the King of Spain. She wasn't
Speaker 1: going to marry some guy who was just made a
Speaker 1: baron five minutes ago. Though some historians question the legitimacy
Speaker 1: of these letters, Apparently, Thomas Seymour wrote to the thirteen
Speaker 1: year old Elizabeth less than a month after the death
Speaker 1: of her father to propose. He wrote, quote, I dare
Speaker 1: not tell you of the fire which consumes me and
Speaker 1: the impatience with which I yearn to show you my devotion.
Speaker 1: He goes on to say that her kindness would quote
Speaker 1: make the happiness of a man who will adore you
Speaker 1: till death. If the letters are authentic. Elizabeth replied incredibly diplomatically.
Speaker 1: She wrote, quote, I confess to you that your letter,
Speaker 1: all elegant as it is, has very much surprised me.
Speaker 1: For besides that neither my age nor my inclination allows
Speaker 1: me to think of marriage. I could never have believed
Speaker 1: that anyone would have spoken to me of nuptials at
Speaker 1: a time when I ought to think of nothing but
Speaker 1: sorrow for the death of my father. What Thomas was
Speaker 1: probably all too aware of was that, according to Henry
Speaker 1: the Eighth's will, if Elizabeth was going to get married
Speaker 1: at all, it would need to be approved by the Council,
Speaker 1: or else she would forfeit her inheritance and place it
Speaker 1: in the line of succession. Maybe he believed that seducing
Speaker 1: her would be the first step to getting the council
Speaker 1: to approve, or maybe naively he assumed that they would.
Speaker 1: Whatever he believed, he was wrong on all counts. Elizabeth
Speaker 1: turned him down, and when Thomas did eventually bring up
Speaker 1: his desire to marry one of Henry's daughters in a
Speaker 1: council meeting, he was met with abject refusal. And so
Speaker 1: if Thomas could not marry the daughter of a king,
Speaker 1: he resigned himself to marrying the former wife of one.
Speaker 1: Catherine Parr was thirty four years old when her third husband,
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth, died, and she was still, by all accounts,
Speaker 1: a beautiful woman. She had thick, auburn hair and an
Speaker 1: excellent figure, clear skin, apparently thanks to her habit of
Speaker 1: bathing in milk. Thomas picked up where he had left
Speaker 1: off before her third marriage, and though her husband had
Speaker 1: only died a few weeks prior, soon allegedly the pair
Speaker 1: were meeting in secret for stolen kisses. That spring, just
Speaker 1: a few months after the death of her husband, Katherine
Speaker 1: Parr and Thomas Seymour were secretly married. For young Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: Katherine Parr was the closest thing to a mother that
Speaker 1: she had ever had. Elizabeth had been nine years old
Speaker 1: when Catherine became her stepmother, and her life up until
Speaker 1: that point had been pretty tumultuous. As I mentioned, Elizabeth
Speaker 1: wasn't even three when her mother died, and over the
Speaker 1: next several years, her father would marry three more times.
Speaker 1: Two of those wives would die, one beheaded. Elizabeth would
Speaker 1: spend her childhood bouncing around from various houses and households.
Speaker 1: Her father seemingly forgetting she existed for stretches of time.
Speaker 1: Katherine Parr gave her a sense of normalcy. Catherine advocated
Speaker 1: to Henry the eighth on behalf of his daughters and
Speaker 1: helped bring them back into the family fold, and Elizabeth
Speaker 1: and Catherine were in many ways kindred spirits. They were
Speaker 1: both brilliant and academic, interested in writing and debating new ideas.
Speaker 1: When Elizabeth was just eleven, she translated a French poem
Speaker 1: to English and hand embroidered a book cover with her
Speaker 1: stepmother's initials to give her as a gift, and Elizabeth
Speaker 1: would also translate Catherine's own writings her book Prayers or Meditations,
Speaker 1: into French, Italian, and Latin. It must have been disorienting
Speaker 1: for young Elizabeth when her father died. She was now orphaned,
Speaker 1: and not just that the younger brother she had grown
Speaker 1: close to had also all but disappeared from her life overnight,
Speaker 1: having been plunged into the rarefied bubble of kinghood. But
Speaker 1: Katherine warmly extended an invitation to Elizabeth to come live
Speaker 1: with her in her new household, and so Elizabeth went
Speaker 1: with her stepmother outside the city to her manor in Chelsea.
Speaker 1: Not everyone had been happy that Catherine Parr had secretly
Speaker 1: married Thomas Seymour. It had only been months since King
Speaker 1: Henry died, and Thomas had not gotten permission from the
Speaker 1: King or from the Council for the match. Both Katherine
Speaker 1: and Thomas knew it was a less than decorous decision.
Speaker 1: Thomas actually embarked on a strategy that feels like something
Speaker 1: a child would do. After he had already secretly married Catherine,
Speaker 1: he went to both his nephew and brother, asking them
Speaker 1: for their help in trying to arrange a match. They
Speaker 1: both reacted less enthusiastically than Thomas would have liked, which
Speaker 1: meant the entire place pretty much backfired. Mary Tutor, Catherine's
Speaker 1: other step daughter, Elizabeth's half sister, was scandalized that Catherine
Speaker 1: had gotten married so quickly after Henry's death. Mary actually
Speaker 1: asked Elizabeth to come live with her and not with
Speaker 1: the clearly sinful, lustful Catherine. But Catherine Parr was in
Speaker 1: love and Elizabeth, by all accounts, was happy for her
Speaker 1: until things became more complicated. That summer. Catherine's husband, Thomas Seymour,
Speaker 1: was the lord and master of her estate, which he
Speaker 1: took advantage of almost immediately after the wedding, by withdrawing
Speaker 1: two thousand pounds nearly two million today from her coffers
Speaker 1: in less than three months, and by carrying the keys
Speaker 1: to Chelsea Manor so he could unlock any of its doors.
Speaker 1: Sometime in late May or early June, Elizabeth was lying
Speaker 1: in bed early in the morning when she heard a
Speaker 1: key enter and turn in the lock. The curtains around
Speaker 1: her bed were pulled back, revealing Thomas Seymour, her new
Speaker 1: almost stepfather, a man twenty five years her senior. Elizabeth
Speaker 1: was wearing only a night dress, and she tried to
Speaker 1: pull her sheets up to cover herself, while Thomas smiled
Speaker 1: and said good Morrow, gesturing like he was playfully about
Speaker 1: to pounce onto the bed. He was still wearing his
Speaker 1: night clothes, described as quote bare legged in his slippers,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth moved away from him in bed, so quote he
Speaker 1: could not come at her. According to historian Tracy Boorman,
Speaker 1: quote Elizabeth was like forbidden fruit for him. He was
Speaker 1: very much drawn to power. Knowing that she was Henry
Speaker 1: the eighth's daughter and she was under his roof was
Speaker 1: pretty irresistible for Thomas. For him, it was a game.
Speaker 1: Elizabeth made it a point to start waking up early
Speaker 1: so she would be out of bed by the time
Speaker 1: her stepfather might arrive for his unwelcome good mornings. The
Speaker 1: next time he came, she was already out of bed,
Speaker 1: but she wasn't dressed yet, still wearing her nightgown, and
Speaker 1: when she turned away from him, he smacked her quote
Speaker 1: familiarly on the butt. Thomas was a mercurial, controlling person.
Speaker 1: At some point during the summer, Thomas found the door
Speaker 1: to his wife's chamber closed, right before a servant came
Speaker 1: out carrying a basket of coal. Thomas began screaming in
Speaker 1: a jealous rage, accusing Catherine Parr of infidelity, although later
Speaker 1: he would claim that he was just joking. But joking
Speaker 1: or not, he was a man that no one in
Speaker 1: the household wanted to anger. For many faults. It seemed
Speaker 1: that Catherine remained madly in love with him, either unaware
Speaker 1: or in denial about the attention he was paying to
Speaker 1: her stepdaughter. I want to stop here and point out
Speaker 1: on a personal note, how strange I find some of
Speaker 1: the writing about Elizabeth and Thomas Seymour. Even in modern writing,
Speaker 1: you'd be surprised how often Elizabeth is described as flirtatious
Speaker 1: and encouraging. Her feelings about Thomas Seymour quote complicated. A
Speaker 1: common narrative is that young Elizabeth had a crush on
Speaker 1: the dashing, older Thomas, but then he takes things too
Speaker 1: far in a way that she knew could be damaging
Speaker 1: to her reputation. I'm not trying to do any revisionist history,
Speaker 1: and I'm certainly not one to shy away from how
Speaker 1: complicated relationships can be. And though Elizabeth was thirteen at
Speaker 1: this time, for a princess in the fifteenth century, it
Speaker 1: would have been an early but not unthinkable age for
Speaker 1: society to deem her as marriageable. And it's incredibly plausible
Speaker 1: that a young, sheltered girl might have had a crush
Speaker 1: on a handsome older man paying her attention. But all
Speaker 1: of that said, I cannot wrap my head around a
Speaker 1: version of the story that seems like Elizabeth was encouraging
Speaker 1: Thomas in any way. She politely but firmly rejected his
Speaker 1: marriage proposal before he married Catherine Parr, and then when
Speaker 1: he was married to her stepmother, and he came into
Speaker 1: her bedchamber when they were in the same household. Everything
Speaker 1: Elizabeth did seems to indicate to me that his behavior
Speaker 1: was not welcome. In one book I read, the author
Speaker 1: relays that Elizabeth lifted her sheet to cover herself when
Speaker 1: Thomas came into her room and tried to move away
Speaker 1: from him. But then the author concedes that she didn't
Speaker 1: leave the bed, which the author interprets as some sort
Speaker 1: of tacit sanction. To me, that scene reads very clearly
Speaker 1: as a young woman trying her best to cover herself
Speaker 1: up in her bedchamber and not leave the bed so
Speaker 1: she wouldn't be more exposed or closer to where her
Speaker 1: creepy stepfather was standing. Despite the fact that Elizabeth was
Speaker 1: the daughter of a king, Thomas Seymour was an incredibly
Speaker 1: powerful person. In her young life, she was living in
Speaker 1: his house. He was brother to the Lord Protector and
Speaker 1: uncle to the current king. He was married to her
Speaker 1: beloved stepmother. Even from a young age, Elizabeth was masterful
Speaker 1: at diplomatic rediss and preservations of ego, and I find
Speaker 1: it a little astonishing the degree to which some accounts
Speaker 1: see certain behavior as flirtatious, which come across to me
Speaker 1: very clearly as merely polite and even if she were
Speaker 1: quote flirtatious, whatever that means, it would have been flirtation
Speaker 1: from a sheltered, naive, thirteen year old girl in response
Speaker 1: to the attentions of the incredibly forward man twenty five
Speaker 1: years her senior, who also happened to be the master
Speaker 1: of the house Elizabeth lived in. I always hesitate to
Speaker 1: use modern terminology to historical figures, but the word grooming
Speaker 1: did come to mind reading about their relationship. On one occasion,
Speaker 1: Thomas actually climbed into Elizabeth's bed while she was still sleeping,
Speaker 1: even though her governess, kat Ashley, was present in the room.
Speaker 1: When Elizabeth woke up, she tried to get away from
Speaker 1: her stepfather in the bed, pulling the sheets up around her.
Speaker 1: A writer notes that quote she did not struggle as
Speaker 1: her visitor reached down to kiss her where she lay,
Speaker 1: which to me reads as a little conciliatory, given that
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was a thirteen year old girl who just woke
Speaker 1: up to find the adult man with a bad temper
Speaker 1: and an incredible amount of power over her inches away
Speaker 1: from her face. Even to kat Ashley, who was charmed
Speaker 1: by Thomas and thought of him as a friend, thought
Speaker 1: that that behavior was crossing a line. According to her,
Speaker 1: she cried go away for shame, but Thomas ignored her.
Speaker 1: Kat would help Elizabeth wake up earlier so that she
Speaker 1: could get fully dressed before Thomas stopped by, which, as
Speaker 1: luck would have it, always stopped his little games. When
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was dressed and reading before Thomas came to her room,
Speaker 1: he would just say good morning from the hallway and
Speaker 1: keep on walking. The spanks and tickles and kisses were
Speaker 1: only for when she was in her nightgown. The most
Speaker 1: incendiary incident came the following autumn. Elizabeth was in the
Speaker 1: garden with Catherine Parr when Thomas approached, his dagger unsheathed,
Speaker 1: visible in the light. What happens next is frankly a
Speaker 1: little difficult for me to understand. But Catherine held Elizabeth
Speaker 1: while Thomas cut Elizabeth's gown into a hundred pieces, leaving
Speaker 1: her to clutch at the pieces of fabric around her
Speaker 1: body to maintain her modesty. Why was Catherine engaging with
Speaker 1: Thomas's malicious, scandalous little quote game. I think, like so
Speaker 1: many anecdotes from history, we can imagine it playing out
Speaker 1: in several different way ways. Maybe seeing the knife drawn
Speaker 1: Elizabeth clutched her stepmother, and the two of them were
Speaker 1: frozen in fear together, unable to challenge Thomas wielding a
Speaker 1: weapon cutting Elizabeth's dress away. Or maybe on the other
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum, Catherine was so madly in love
Speaker 1: with Thomas that she convinced herself that it all was
Speaker 1: just some fun little game, and she willingly held Elizabeth
Speaker 1: down while Thomas cut her clothes off. However, it happened
Speaker 1: when Elizabeth ran back to her governess, she reported that
Speaker 1: Catherine had been holding her while quote my lord did
Speaker 1: so dress it. Apparently Catherine was also involved in some
Speaker 1: of the other quote tickling games that Thomas engaged in
Speaker 1: with Elizabeth. I can't explain why she would have been
Speaker 1: enabling such clearly line crossing behavior, except but maybe she
Speaker 1: was so deeply in denial that she needed to create
Speaker 1: a narrative for herself that it really was just all
Speaker 1: a harmless wrung. Thomas was also a very manipulative person,
Speaker 1: aware of how much control he had over Elizabeth and
Speaker 1: her reputation, clearly relishing it. Kat Ashley reported being summoned
Speaker 1: by Katherine Parr one afternoon. To her surprise, Catherine was
Speaker 1: furious with her. Thomas had reported to Catherine that he
Speaker 1: had seen Elizabeth through a gallery window embracing a man.
Speaker 1: Of course, that type of scandal was beyond the pale,
Speaker 1: and as her governess, Kat was responsible for properly supervising Elizabeth.
Speaker 1: To me, it seems less likely that Elizabeth would have
Speaker 1: been kissing an unidentified man while clearly visible in the window,
Speaker 1: and more likely that Tom was exercising his control over
Speaker 1: both his wife and his stepdaughter in telling Catherine what
Speaker 1: he allegedly saw. Catherine must have on some level suspected
Speaker 1: what was happening, but one day she got the proof
Speaker 1: even she couldn't ignore. Catherine came upon Thomas and Elizabeth embracing.
Speaker 1: We don't know what happened next, whether Thomas tried to
Speaker 1: justify or defend herself, whether Catherine blamed him or braided Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: but Elizabeth's time in Catherine's house was over. Catherine by
Speaker 1: this point was pregnant by Thomas, a surprise to everyone
Speaker 1: given that she was thirty five and had been married
Speaker 1: three times but never before had had a child, and
Speaker 1: she was planning on going to Sudley Castle to rest
Speaker 1: before giving birth and to get away from the risk
Speaker 1: of the plague, Sabeth needed somewhere else to stay. Catherine
Speaker 1: sent Elizabeth to live in Herefordshire under the charge of
Speaker 1: Sir Anthony Denny and his wife, who was the sister
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth's governess, kat Ashley. Was she trying to protect
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and her reputation in getting her away from Thomas.
Speaker 1: Surely Catherine understood what it would mean for Elizabeth's future
Speaker 1: if she had already had a man in her bed.
Speaker 1: Or was Catherine angry and punishing Elizabeth sending her into exile.
Speaker 1: We know that Catherine had already turned her anger on
Speaker 1: kat Ashley for failing to properly supervise Elizabeth, and it
Speaker 1: seems to me as though Katherine knew that kat was
Speaker 1: the one person in the situation that she could blame.
Speaker 1: After all, better to get angry at a governess than
Speaker 1: fully reckon with what type of man her husband was,
Speaker 1: or get angry at the fourteen year old girl manipulated
Speaker 1: by a forty year old man. I wish we knew
Speaker 1: what Catherine was thinking and feeling. I wish we knew
Speaker 1: what Elizabeth was feeling. But I imagine as Elizabeth was
Speaker 1: cast out from the home of the woman who had
Speaker 1: really acted as her mother for most of her young life.
Speaker 1: They must have both been heartbroken. Katherine and Elizabeth would
Speaker 1: never see each other again. In autumn of fifteen forty eight,
Speaker 1: Katherine gave birth to a baby girl, but she immediately
Speaker 1: became ill with properreal fever. Thomas was with Catherine at
Speaker 1: her sick bed, but his presence did not comfort her.
Speaker 1: She was also attended by a friend, Lady Tyrewit, and Catherine,
Speaker 1: feverish said to her friend, my lady Terwit, I am
Speaker 1: not well handled for those that be about me. Careth
Speaker 1: not for me, but standeth laughing at my grief. Thomas
Speaker 1: Apparent came closer and said, why, sweetheart, I would you
Speaker 1: know hurt, only for Catherine to say, no, my Lord,
Speaker 1: I think so. Katherine Parr died September fifth, fifteen forty eight,
Speaker 1: two days before Elizabeth's fifteenth birthday. In the aftermath of
Speaker 1: his wife's death, Thomas Seymour did seem genuinely bereft, and
Speaker 1: he mourned for Catherine, but her death wasn't going to
Speaker 1: stop his ambitions for himself and his fundamental belief deep
Speaker 1: down that he should be the one in power, not
Speaker 1: his older brother, whom he continued to have friction with.
Speaker 1: In fact, as historian Rebecca Larson points out, his plans
Speaker 1: would become more outlandish now that he didn't have quote
Speaker 1: a wife to reign in his wilder instincts. Thomas's brother
Speaker 1: was still the Lord Protector, but in Thomas's estimation, he
Speaker 1: was too controlling over the young King Edward, and Thomas
Speaker 1: believed that there shouldn't be a protector at all. It
Speaker 1: appears he envisioned a future where Edward was more in
Speaker 1: control of his own affairs, despite the fact that Edward
Speaker 1: was only eleven, a future where Edward would be rewarding
Speaker 1: his favorite uncle with a top position, especially once that
Speaker 1: uncle was married to Edward's sister Elizabeth. Now that Thomas
Speaker 1: was single, it seems he set his sights clearly on Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: despite the fact that the council would never approve the marriage,
Speaker 1: and if he married Elizabeth in secret without council approval,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth would forfeit much of her holdings. But Thomas had
Speaker 1: conversations with kat Ashley, Elizabeth's governess, who visited Thomas in London,
Speaker 1: ostensibly about whether Elizabeth would be willing to marry him.
Speaker 1: And Thomas met with Elizabeth's cofferer, asking about Elizabeth's wealth
Speaker 1: and holdings in a way that seemed as though he
Speaker 1: were a suitor. Whatever Elizabeth's private feelings were on the
Speaker 1: matter of the possible marriage are unknown, but we do
Speaker 1: know that January things spiraled out beyond her control in
Speaker 1: a way that nearly cost Elizabeth her reputation and her future.
Speaker 1: On January sixteenth, fifteen forty nine, Thomas snuck into King
Speaker 1: Edward's apartments holding a weapon. When the King's beloved dog
Speaker 1: began barking, Thomas killed the dog and tried to make
Speaker 1: his escape. Later, when the story got out, people would
Speaker 1: accuse Thomas of trying to murder Edward in order to
Speaker 1: install Elizabeth on the throne. That's almost certainly not the case.
Speaker 1: The more likely plan is that Thomas thought he could
Speaker 1: abscond with Edward and persuade him to take more control
Speaker 1: of affairs and scoop up Elizabeth on the way out
Speaker 1: of town to marry her. But whatever his plan was,
Speaker 1: it went very, very wrong. And if Thomas had once
Speaker 1: been a beloved uncle, well, there's nothing like killing someone's
Speaker 1: dog to undo affection. Thomas was arrested and he was
Speaker 1: brought to the Tower of London. The Lord Admiral had
Speaker 1: committed treason, and now the only question was how involved
Speaker 1: in this scheme was Elizabeth. Authorities arrested Elizabeth's beloved governess
Speaker 1: kat Ashley and her cofferer, imprisoning them in the Tower
Speaker 1: of London in dismal conditions for weeks, trying to get
Speaker 1: them to confess to the nature of the relationship between
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and Thomas Seymour. Elizabeth was interrogated too day after day,
Speaker 1: but she refused to tell the investigator anything he wanted
Speaker 1: to hear, which was deeply frustrating to a man who
Speaker 1: felt like he was being bested by a fifteen year
Speaker 1: old girl. When her interrogator told her that there were
Speaker 1: rumors that she was pregnant by Thomas Seymour, Elizabeth was
Speaker 1: aghast and said she should be brought to court so
Speaker 1: that people could see just how not pregnant she was.
Speaker 1: It was the cofferer who broke, first, telling the authorities
Speaker 1: about the conversations he had had with Thomas about Elizabeth's landholdings,
Speaker 1: and then kat Ashley broke as well, finally revealing these
Speaker 1: scandalous details about Thomas Seymour's spring and summer spent quote
Speaker 1: tickling the young royal. It was embarrassing for Elizabeth, and
Speaker 1: certainly those inclined to a more sympathetic narration of Thomas
Speaker 1: might imagine that kat Ashley had framed a summer of
Speaker 1: mutual flirtation in a way to make Elizabeth seem as
Speaker 1: innocent as possible. After all, for those willing to believe
Speaker 1: the worst about Elizabeth, given that she was the daughter
Speaker 1: of the notorious seductress Anne Boleyn, it would be only
Speaker 1: natural that she too would be the cause of a
Speaker 1: man's downfall. But Elizabeth maintained astonishing composure during her entire interrogation.
Speaker 1: When she was presented with the testimony of her servants,
Speaker 1: she wrote her own testimony, corroborating what they said, but
Speaker 1: making it clear that she would never have consented to
Speaker 1: a marriage without the will of the Council, and she
Speaker 1: had never even considered it. Thomas Seymour was convicted by
Speaker 1: attainder and sentenced to death. Like Elizabeth's mother, he was
Speaker 1: beheaded at the Tower of London, But unlike Anne Boleyn,
Speaker 1: whose beheading had been done by a French swordsman, Thomas
Speaker 1: Seymour's was a messy affair. It took two strokes of
Speaker 1: the axe man's blade to remove his head from his body.
Speaker 1: The Thomas Seymour scandal put Elizabeth's reputation at risk, and
Speaker 1: gossip had spread that the two had consummated an affair.
Speaker 1: For the rest of her life, Elizabeth would use every
Speaker 1: tool at her disposal to control the narrative around her reputation.
Speaker 1: After the death of her half brother, Edward, Elizabeth's half
Speaker 1: sister Mary became queen. Neither Edward nor Mary had children,
Speaker 1: and ten years after the death of the man who
Speaker 1: had caused so many problems in her young life, Elizabeth
Speaker 1: became Queen of England in her own right. She never
Speaker 1: married and became known as the Virgin Queen, a self
Speaker 1: styled nickname to communicate her piousness and devotion to England.
Speaker 1: She would never again lose control of her own narrative
Speaker 1: to a man. That's the story of Elizabeth and Thomas Seymour,
Speaker 1: But keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear
Speaker 1: a little bit more about another of Elizabeth's suitors. One
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth's early suitors was the husband of her stepmother,
Speaker 1: but Thomas Seymour wasn't the only man married to a
Speaker 1: relative who would try to marry Elizabeth too. Elizabeth's older
Speaker 1: half sister, Mary was queen before her and Mary had
Speaker 1: married Philip the second of Spain. Mary had a brief
Speaker 1: and unpopular reign five years, marked by bloody religious strife
Speaker 1: and anger, and fear on the part of England that
Speaker 1: since a wife vows to be obedient to her husband,
Speaker 1: Spain was actually running things, not their English. Queen Mary
Speaker 1: died at forty two without producing any heirs, which meant
Speaker 1: that Elizabeth Tutor was now queen and who should want
Speaker 1: to reach out with a proposal but her late sister's husband,
Speaker 1: Old Philip of Spain. It's particularly ironic given that Elizabeth's mother,
Speaker 1: Anne Boleyn, had married Henry the Eighth with the justification
Speaker 1: that Henry's first wife had previously been married to Henry's brother,
Speaker 1: making their marriage illegitimate. But Philip didn't care about the
Speaker 1: legitimacy of marrying sisters. He just wanted to maintain his
Speaker 1: foothold in England and to try to get Elizabeth to
Speaker 1: agree to become Catholic. For several good reasons, Elizabeth refused
Speaker 1: and later she would famously defeat Philip and his Spanish
Speaker 1: Armada in fifteen eighty eight. Noble Blood is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble
Speaker 1: Blood is hosted by me Dana Schwartz. Writers for Noble
Speaker 1: Blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffey, Natasha Laski,
Speaker 1: and me Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced
Speaker 1: by Jesse Funk and Nomes Griffin, with supervising producer rima
Speaker 1: il Kaali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.