1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: one two and let's turn on the lightsome. She stood 3 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: on the floor and aspiring pastor twenty nine claims he 4 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: had too much cough medicine. You heard me write, cough 5 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: medicine that made him stab his wife, his young, beautiful wife, 6 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty three times. Whoopsie, Okay, And now 7 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: we're learning a new development that maybe it wasn't just 8 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: the cough syrup. He was obsessed with American psycho. I 9 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for 10 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: being with us. We've got an all star lineup to 11 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: break it down and put it back together today. Dr 12 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: William Moroney right now, medical examiner, famed criminal defense attorney 13 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: based out of Connecticut, Mickey Sherman, New York psychotherapist Lauren Howard, 14 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: and Crime Stories investigative reporter John Limley. You know this guy, 15 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: Matthew Phelps um ends up calling nine one one in 16 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: a very vague explanation of why is his young wife 17 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: they're still on a honeymoon for Pete's sake, is in 18 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: the floor covered in blood. I want you to hear this. Listen. 19 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: I think, what what do you mean by that? What 20 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: happened there? And then that's the lightsome? She stood on 21 00:01:54,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: the floor? How how I'm signs? Blood all over me 22 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: and there's a bloody knife on the bed, and I 23 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: think I did it? Okay, give me all right, stay 24 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: on the phone with me. I'm getting there and get les. Okay. 25 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: I can't believe this. I can't believe this. When did 26 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: you When did you wake up to find this? I 27 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: don't even know what time it is? All right, stay 28 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: on the phone with me, so I just gonna ask 29 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: if you questions. Okay, I'm getting some help to you. 30 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: Are you with are you with the patient? Now? Yeah? 31 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: I can see your Okay, all right? How does the 32 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: how does the patient? How's your She's pretty died? Okay? 33 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: Is she? Is? She awaken? All right? Now? What makes 34 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: you think she's dead? Does she? Wait? She thought three? Did? Okay? 35 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: Oh my god? Okay? Do you think he is bond 36 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: beyond any help? I told though, I told I too 37 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: scared to get too close to her. Okay, to stay 38 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: on the phone with me, sir. I'm here with you. 39 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: I'm here with you. I'm so scared. Sorry, I've already 40 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: sent the paramedics. Healthy. Okay, I'm sending someone to assist you. 41 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: Just please leave everything as you founded. Is there anything 42 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: else we can do for you? Said? Where's where's the knife? 43 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: Right now? If I saw the bed, I'm not next 44 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: to it, so I'm not. I don't have the lesson 45 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: on mirro And it's like that, Okay, when did you 46 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: when did you wake up? No? I don't know. I took. 47 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: I took more medicine than I should have. What medicine 48 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: did you take? I took? I took to investigate a reporter, 49 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: John Lemley. John Limley in a nutshell. This guy says, 50 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: he says it right then and there, that he had 51 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: cough syrup. But what we learned is he didn't have 52 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: a cold, John Limley. He was drinking the cough syrup 53 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: in order to get a buzz. Exactly on this nine call, 54 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: he's telling the dispatcher that he had a dream in 55 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: the middle of the night, um, that he had killed 56 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: his wife. And he awakes, turns on the lights and 57 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: there she is dead on the floor. It's a it's 58 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: a nightmare come true. In his words, Um, he says, 59 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: I have blood all over me. There's a bloody knife 60 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: on the bed. I think I did it. I can't 61 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: believe I did this. He tells the dispatcher that he 62 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: sometimes takes cough medicine when he has a cold or 63 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: to help him sleep, and that sometimes he does things 64 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 1: in his sleep that he doesn't remember. Whoa whoa does 65 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: things in his sleep? Right to Dr William Maroney, medical 66 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: examiner joining US and author of a brand new book 67 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: available on Amazon dot com American Narcan. Dr Maroney tell 68 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: me about the costs syrup that he actually took. That 69 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: basically he's blaming her murder on having too much cought 70 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: up in these cotserups. They have a cost suppressant that's 71 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: called dextral methoric. Okay, slow it down right there, right there. 72 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: You're throwing all the big words on me, like Mickey 73 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: Sherman likes to do cours seeden h happy b brother 74 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: P Pennsylvania course suden h b P. What is it? 75 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: What is h b P stand for? And could you 76 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: please speak English? Dr Maroney? Regular people talk? Please all right? 77 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: And and I'll go real. I'm not deaf. I just 78 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: don't understand. Go ahead. It's like when I talked to 79 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: my children. Dr maroney, I go John, David, Mommy asked 80 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: you to do X, and he goes, Mommy, just because 81 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: you're talking slowly, it's not helping. Okay, go ahead, all right. 82 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: So some of the cough serups have a decongestent, and 83 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: that decongestent leads to high blood pressure, which is a problem. 84 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: So course Eden has this, and it's well known for 85 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: a decade that they have a formulation that doesn't have 86 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: those drugs in there that the side effect is high 87 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: blood pressure. So if you have high blood pressure, you're 88 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: supposed to drink, you're supposed to self administer, you're supposed 89 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: to use the core seedon h BP that stands for 90 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: high blood pressure. But the active ingredient that suppresses your 91 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: cough is called dextro mathora fan and that last half 92 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: of that word that methora fan or it's an opioid 93 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: like morphine. It's in the morphine family, and if you 94 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: excessively intake that, it can lead you to the same 95 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: kind of dissociative high as heroin. And that's why course 96 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: sedon is abused by teenagers. And it's obvious that this 97 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: young man also has at time experienced the core sedon high. Now, 98 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: if you take one or two teaspoons of it, it's 99 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: not a problem. But these people mix it with pop 100 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: and go through half a bottle in thirty minutes. That 101 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: will lead you to an opioid high. Similar, very similar 102 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: as a heroine. H hold on, let's take a moment, Alan, 103 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: could you let me hear a little bit more of 104 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: that nine one one call? What made us? Did you take? 105 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: That's so that's a course he cast some coldest of course, 106 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: costles bold because I know what to make you feel good. 107 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: So a lot of times I can't sleep at night. 108 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: Alright to Mickey Sherman, connected based criminal defense lawyer, renowned 109 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: attorney Mickey Sherman, um, you know that voluntary use of 110 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol is not a defense. So where can 111 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: he go, especially in light of the most recent development 112 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: that he's obsessed with American Psycho. Take a listen to 113 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: the trailer. This is what he's obsessed with. I don't 114 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: think I can control myself. If you stay something bad, 115 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: I feel lethal on the verge of frenzy. I think 116 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: my mask of sanity is about to slip. Do you 117 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: have any witnesses or fingerprints? And actually yes, mm hmm, 118 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: I know my behavior can be erratic sometimes. Hey Paul, 119 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: so what do you do I mean to, uh, well, 120 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: murders and executions. Mostly. I have all the characteristics of 121 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: a human being, but not a single clear, identifiable emotion. 122 00:09:51,600 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: I simply am not there. I to kill a lot 123 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: of people. That's not helping anything, Mickey, American Psycho the Slash, 124 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: the Slice and Dice movie. In fact, he's got a 125 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: photo of Christian Bail, who played the lead role the killer, 126 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: covered in blood on his I guess it's Facebook. That's 127 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: not helping anything, Mickey. Now, clearly this is a the 128 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: beginnings of a insanity defense. There's nothing left Oh lord, 129 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: there's nothing left that that that is in reality, any 130 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: type of balance defense. And when what you mean he 131 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: was insane after the cought syrup and then he regained 132 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: his mind after the stabbing. That's right, It goes back 133 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: and forth. Okay, do you really think anybody's gonna believe 134 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: I mean it was cost syrup induced, and I mean, 135 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: how can that be insanity? He would believe that the 136 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: Harvey Milk case would exist where somebody who used as 137 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: a defense that they had too much sweet and cookies 138 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: and twinkies you never know what's gonna want. He's that's 139 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: the twinkie defense. Guys, where a killer that you're referring 140 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: to the death of the mayor of San Francisco. Correct 141 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: where the defense was he had too many twinkies. Well 142 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: that's San Francisco. Okay, So that's basically a whole another 143 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: justice system in California. No offense, California. I love you deeply, 144 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: but you are stuck with the twinkie defense, California, not 145 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: the rest of us. You You, that's on you, California. 146 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: But what about this him posting pictures of himself as 147 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: American Psycho's main character Patrick Bateman to his Instagram Covered 148 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: in Blood, where he describes him as a radical dreamer, 149 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: writer and entrepreneur. He's a murderer, He's American Psycho and 150 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: he actually posts himself as American Psycho Mickey Sherman. He 151 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: was fully sane. Well that's for jury to determine. Also, 152 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: the fact of the hundred and twenty three stables that 153 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: is way beyond conventional murder. It's a passion that's just 154 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be uh equal to or or justified 155 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: by anything in his defense. But I think you will 156 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: have the psychologists and psychiatrists addressing the hundred and level 157 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: very significally. Well, I think you're right about that, Mickey, 158 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: because I feel recalled the woman that tied the husband up. 159 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: I guess it was the husband and stabbed him about 160 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: a hundred times, and they re enacted it in the courtroom. 161 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: Of course, she was convicted, but I want to make 162 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: sure that we all know that bear as a bear 163 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,599 Speaker 1: aspirin that creates this corre seed in HPP says the 164 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: medicine is not known to cause the violent outbursts. You 165 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: know what, uh mackey, sense you managed not to give 166 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: me any real answers, but to just muddy the water, 167 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: which is your job. Okay, let me go to a shrink. 168 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: Lauren Howard with me, New York psychotherapist Lauren. Welcome to 169 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: series x M one thirty two and Crime online dot Com. 170 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: Long time no here, Glad to have you listen to 171 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: be here, Lauren. By the way, I loved your show, 172 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: watched it the other night. Nancy fantastic. I guess you're 173 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: talking about A and E where Dan Abras and I 174 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: have a throwdown. I am I am graces as fantastic. 175 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: Listen you got a tun on Thursday night A and 176 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: A eleven PM where we go at it over over 177 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: Drew Peterson's missing quote quote he's missing fourth wife Stacy. 178 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: Back to this guy phelps. He then at the scene. 179 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: Let's just follow Mickey Sherman can throw out a defense. 180 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: Let me tell you something. I've seen it work too. 181 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: But let's yeah, let's follow his line of reasoning down 182 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: the garden path. He's leading us down with temporary insanity 183 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: because when police finally get there, he breaks down sobbing 184 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: and crying and heaving and holding himself and says his 185 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: wife did not deserve this. So suddenly he snapped back 186 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: to reality. I mean, is that how insanity works. You're 187 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: only insane for the moments of the murder? Well, yeah, 188 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean you can. Yes, insanity can work that way. 189 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: A schizuloceptive disorder would work that way. However, here's the 190 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: bottom line, Nancy. First of all, heroin, morphine, anything that's 191 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: like it does not create a violent reaction. Most drug 192 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: abusers who abuse those particular drugs. I'm not talking about 193 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: met the amphetamines, I'm not talking about cocaine. I'm talking 194 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: about really more depressive drugs do not create a violent response. 195 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: So how did this happen. Does it create a sort 196 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: of um an inability to focus on reality? Yes, but 197 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: the inclination has to be unconscious in order to act 198 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: out in that way. So, and we know this guy 199 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: was obseted with American psychle What that meant him, I 200 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: don't know. It's a black comedy, American pecho. It's you know, 201 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: it's how deeply he delved into the meaning of the 202 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: film or the book versus his own pathology. I don't know, 203 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: but I can tell you this. There is no way 204 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: that the drug made him do it. His his unconscious 205 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: motivations made him do it, and that's why it occurred. 206 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: The guy is obviously, I mean, there's no you can 207 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: defend them. You should defend them. Everybody deserved the defense. 208 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: But this guy had a very dark underside that his 209 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: sleep and combination of the cores eden allowed it to dance. 210 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: And that's what happened. Let me tell you something. Jackie's 211 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: waving a note at me furiously. And I'm getting this 212 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: straight from what am I reading right now. I've been 213 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: up reading it all. This is from the Charlotte Observer. 214 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: This guy, the husband that twenty nine year old aspiring pastor. 215 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: He went to Bible College. He he got his degree, 216 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: I believe, but somehow he ends up not working in 217 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: his chosen profession, but cutting grass. The wife is the 218 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: one that had the job and supported the family. That's 219 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: a whole another canon worms not judging, not judging. This 220 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: guy Phelps, twenty nine year old pastor, would be accused 221 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: of the cough syrup killing. Was fascinated with the movie 222 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: American Psycho, according to police. Now, this guy, twenty nine 223 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: year old Matthew Phelps, a Bible College grad, calls nine 224 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: one one a little after one ten a m. To 225 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: say his wife of less than a year, Lauren hugle Meyer, 226 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: was stabbed dead. That he had taken Corrus Senden and 227 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: woke up to find his wife dead and a knife 228 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: in his bid. Okay, now we're learning in the last 229 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: hours that he was obsessed with the horror film slasher 230 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: film American Psycho, and he talked to friends about what 231 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: it would be like to kill someone. Now, this is 232 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: not just made up by me, and it's not made 233 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: up by the Charlotte Observer. It's according to police search 234 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: lawrants that put things puts things in a different light 235 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: to John Linley Crime Stories investigative reporter, A different light. Indeed, Well, 236 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: what we have learned about the pastor in training, so 237 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: to speak, is as you have mentioned that he was 238 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: working for a landscaping company. If you look at uh 239 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: social media, uh their Facebook pages, you would never ever 240 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: match in my opinion, the face you see with this 241 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: loving wife with the voice that you hear on this 242 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: nine one one call, they just don't seem to match up. 243 00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: And we know that she was a a wife, really 244 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: worked hard to support her husband. Uh. She had been 245 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: a Sunday school teacher of as Phelps was studying to 246 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: be a pastor um in the wake of the killings 247 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: of It's inconceivable exactly how this path, these two paths 248 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: where he is aspiring to be a pastor and aspiring 249 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: to be this bizarre character from a movie could be 250 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: one and the same person. Know what's really freaky, Mickey Sherman, 251 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: as if they're stabbing a hundred twenty three times, it's 252 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: not freaky enough with me. Were now defense attorney, Connecticut 253 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: based Mickey Shermany practiced all over the country. Mickey, listen 254 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: to this. Not only is he obsessed with American Psycho. 255 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: But if you go to his Instagram account, there's numerous 256 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: photos of the scenes of the movie and phelps this 257 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: guy the Bible student dressed as the main character, so 258 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: he takes the time, I don't know what put his 259 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: face in, lay his face over Bill's face in the 260 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: various scenes depicting a serial killer. Who has time for these? 261 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: I've got? You know, I think I have five thousand, 262 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: literally five thousand unanswered emails right now. I'm gonna check 263 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: to get the right number. But who has time to 264 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: put your face in Christopher Bill's body? And scenes of 265 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: American Psycho the serial killer who somebody was crazy? Why 266 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: what did I expect him to say? Dr Moroney? Okay, look, 267 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: I know you're not a shrink. Okay, you're a medical examiner, 268 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: But I mean, would you You're raising children, you're working 269 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: like crazy, you're writing books, you're lecturing all over the country. 270 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: Just you know, as a juror, who is going to 271 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: have time? What are they going to think? Who's going 272 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: to have time to cut your face out and put 273 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: it in? Two American Psycho says, and they post them 274 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: to Instagram. I know that if my kids were to 275 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: pick a movie and cut my face. I'd probably end 276 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: up in Kung Fu Panda. But the issue it wasn't 277 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: about to see if it ain't Disney, I haven't seen it. 278 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 1: But but but, but the issue here is there's something 279 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: that's just not copasetic that somebody who aspired to be 280 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: a man of God and Carol and and carry moral 281 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: and ethical underpinnings that can be so wrapped up in 282 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: such a warped and twisted and dark piece of literature. 283 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: There there's some mental illness here that goes beyond what 284 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: we can understand. And I agree a minute, what does 285 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: You're jumping on the crazy bandwagon? You're on the crazy 286 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: train with them? You really, guys, guys, guys crazy drug 287 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: crazy plus drugs. Wait a minute, what what? Wait? Let's 288 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: just be clear about this. Under the law, which is 289 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: the old McNaughton rule, which has been brought to our 290 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: country from Great Britain, under our common law which our 291 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: country was founded on, we use the insanity test of 292 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: the old McNaughton case, which says that insanity under the 293 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: law means you did not know right from wrong at 294 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: the time of the incident. So how may I ask 295 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: to all of you could he stabbed her a hundred 296 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: twenty three times then have the wherewithal to make up 297 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: a lie that he was asleep when it happened, and 298 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: he woke up to find her body, and it was dark, 299 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: and he managed to go find the light and turn 300 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: on the light and WHOA, what a surprise, there's his wife, 301 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: deb I guess he slept through the hundred twenty three 302 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: stabs and her fighting him, trying to live uh, running 303 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: away from him, and her being pursued, and him holding 304 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: her down on the ground as he stabbed her dead. 305 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: He slept through all that, had the wherewithal to lie 306 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: about it, had the wherewithal to blame cough syrup, had 307 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: the understanding that she did not deserve this. He knew 308 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: very well what he had done was wrong. I mean, 309 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: did I get those facts wrong? John Limley? No, that 310 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: is that is the case, and police have charged Phelps 311 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: with first degree murder in the case. And as we've 312 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: been discussing, there's now national attention with experts weighing in 313 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: on these potential side effects of cold medicine and cough syrup. Interestingly, 314 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: documents we don't have a lot of details, but documents 315 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: filed with the Wake County Magistrate's Office say the couple 316 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: had been having marital problems before. Oh it's my stars, Jackie, 317 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: who's here in the studio with me and are furiously 318 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: passing notes about the money. I mean, you know, when Lauren, 319 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: can we just put this out there to women? You know, 320 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: when you get a man in if you can't help me, 321 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: just don't hurt me, you know what. I love you, honey. 322 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: But bring in the house payment. Okay, bring it in. 323 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: Don't lay up on the sofa, don't go cut the grass. 324 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: You bring in a check, Okay, bring it in. She's 325 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: not Oh my god, Okay, I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna 326 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: stay here with you. Okay, just just let's let's lease 327 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: see if she's breathing. Okay, all right, Mr Just can 328 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: you see her from where you're at? Yeah, it's so bad, friends, 329 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: tell investigators. And I'm quoting from the police affidavits the 330 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: couple would quote would argue frequently and have been disagreeing 331 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: about finances. According to police, Matthew Phelps, what I gotta 332 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: quit calling him Michael Phelps the Olympian, because I don't 333 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: think he's gonna like that very much. Let me make 334 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: it clear there's no relation. Okay, Matthew felt quote was 335 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: spending more money than the couple made. Follow the money 336 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: and Lauren the wife who had a second second job 337 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: trying to sell candles and home smell good. Since online 338 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: on Facebook, Jackie look up the name of her business 339 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: that she was like a sales like tupperware she would 340 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: sell since yes, thank you who said that, John Limley. 341 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: So Lauren was now working a second job. I remember. 342 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: It's bringing back the days I had three jobs won 343 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: during the day in two at night. Lauren Phelps had 344 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: recently taken drastic steps to limit her husband's spending and 345 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: was quote preparing to end the relationship. Now, Lauren Howard, 346 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: New York psychotherapist, before you jump off about insanity, just 347 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: tell me this is a yesterday. I now have you 348 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: on cross exam, Lauren. Isn't it true that when women 349 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: have been abused, they are more likely to be killed 350 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: when they are either pregnant or try to leave the relationship. Absolutely, absolutely, 351 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: there's no question about it. And this, you know, this 352 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: whole cost sert thing just angers me because all of 353 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: a sudden, if I'm if someone is drunk and they 354 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: commit a murder of a hundred twenty three stabbings. They 355 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: could offer insanity because they're under the influence. I don't 356 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: think so. You have to have the impulse, and perhaps 357 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: the impulse is suppressed when you're not under the influence, 358 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: but once you are that it's released your I think 359 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: Mickey sure Iman jumping in, Go ahead. Here's what they 360 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: have to find. They have to find the Amber Fried. 361 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: Oh lord, you mean another woman? Isn't American psycho with 362 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: his face? Find the Amber Fry? That's what I said, 363 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: is in the Peterson trail before they pound? You did? 364 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: He did say that. He did say, there's got to 365 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: be a woman out there that far. But why do 366 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 1: they have to look at for? Why do we have 367 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: to have another woman? The guy stepped for a hundred 368 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: twenty three times, Thank you, Lauren. If he wanted to 369 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: get rid of her, if that was if that was 370 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: the intention, he could have done it much more easily 371 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: and with less hysteria and drama. What about a divorce? Well, 372 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean, am I the crazy one here? But what 373 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: about money? Where did the knives come from? Where? What 374 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: about all the money spending? All the money? Where is 375 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: the money going? Hold on guys, before we get too 376 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: crazy here, listen to this. Detectives obtain a total of 377 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: seven search warrants to see cell phones, information from their 378 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: Facebook accounts, the town house they shared, in their vehicles, 379 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: Ford fusion in a mid supeci Outlander. Investigators use these 380 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: warrants to seize electrical devices, handwritten documents, and two books 381 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: party games I don't know what party games is, Jack 382 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: and you google it, and American Supernatural Tales from the home, 383 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: handwritten notes in a diary receives from the vehicles. Now, 384 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: the investigators found blood on Phelps when they got to 385 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: the couple's home, and the detectives reported finding evidence suggesting 386 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: get ready wait for it, he cleaned himself up before 387 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: calling nine one. One major major problem for the defense. Okay, 388 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: I heard Laurence snort first, So I'm going to go 389 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: to her. Lauren. The significance of evidence of a clean up, 390 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: that's I mean, there's no question he knew what he 391 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: had done. He was aware of it. He was aware 392 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: it was what I mean, he started on the phone 393 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: on the moment one goal he said, I think I 394 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: did this, And so the cops here of is just 395 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's an excuse, but it's not. It 396 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: doesn't get him off the hook. Like you know, Listen, 397 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,959 Speaker 1: we've seen too many of these trials of sideways and 398 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: what seems so clear not leading to a conviction. But 399 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine any jury on the planet letting this 400 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: guy off. Okay, Mickey, sure, I just had to let 401 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: her in before you, because I know I wanted to 402 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: give you at least thirty seconds to spin the clean up. 403 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: The clean up he did before the police got there, 404 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: before he called nine one one, He had tried to 405 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: clean up the scene. Mick. Maybe he's just a fastidious person. 406 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: Thank you. I should have seen that. More coming to 407 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: Dr William Moroney, medical examiner extraordinary. Dr Maroney author of 408 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: a brand new book, American Narcan, which is awesome. You 409 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: can find it on Amazon. To fight our war on 410 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: opioid addiction in the US, Dr Maroney, What does it 411 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: mean when police or crime scene text quote find evidence 412 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: of a clean up on a scene like this? What 413 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: are they talking about? Break it down? Well, the first 414 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: thing is the primary crimes will have a large amount 415 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: of blood with that many stab wounds, so some of 416 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: the blood has either been moved removed or cleaned up, 417 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: and he personally has been cleaned up. When when you 418 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: look at that amount of blood, the body just keeps 419 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: pumping it out and pumping it out, it looks drastic. 420 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: If you can reduce the amount of blood that they 421 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: find in the pictures that are taken, that will be 422 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: used against him later people will say, well, you know, 423 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: we killed her, but it didn't look that bad. He's 424 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: trying to make it not look bad. He is guilty 425 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: of a heinous crime. I don't blame it on the coops. 426 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: I just put out there that these chemicals, these drugs, 427 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: can make you do things including get sleepy, but dissociative 428 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: and reduced impulses. When and he has to clean up 429 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: a crime scene. That shows he was competent. It shows 430 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: he understood that he needed to clean up. So the 431 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: drugs really didn't affect him that bad. Dr Maroney, for instance, 432 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: if you go in there, if if crime scene text 433 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: c S. I goes in with let's just say luminol, 434 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: and there had been a clean up, what would the 435 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: Of course, there's blood all over her, there's blood on 436 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: the sheets. She's been stabbed hundred three times. But explain 437 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: to me forensically, how they can tail blood from their murder, 438 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: how they can differentiate that from clean up. How what's 439 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: the difference. Well, he's trying to take blood off of 440 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: walls that's been splattered. You can't see it unless you 441 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: come back with ultra violet light luminal. They'll check the 442 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: washer and dryer, and they'll find towels soaked in blood. 443 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: If if there's blood splatter on furniture, if there's blood 444 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: splatter on appliances, and the weapon. We haven't really talked 445 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: about the weapon except the number of times she was stabbed, 446 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: cleaning the weapon and trying to maybe clean up his fingerprints, 447 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: not just the blood. So there's a number of things 448 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: reducing the amount of blood that you can see on 449 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: the wall. But later they can take a luminoal and 450 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: test spots in the carpet, spots in the floor, spots 451 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: on the wall. Blood splatter is also an important part 452 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: of the crime scene, and he'll try to reduce the 453 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: amount of splatter. This is how I put it in 454 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: regular people talk. Thank you, Dr Moroney. I think I 455 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: got what you said. But for instance, this weekend, it's 456 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: Easter weekend. I was with my mom at her home, 457 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: and I saw where she had spilled coffee down on 458 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: window sale where she had turned the corner, and some 459 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: of the coffee had splashed onto the window sill, and 460 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: then it went down the wall. So I got some 461 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: kind of cleaner and I squirted it and wiped it 462 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: all off with a paper towel. It was everywhere. If 463 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: that had been blood and you went in with luminoc 464 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: it shows up like um black light. You say, black 465 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: light poster, that's what it looks like. You would see 466 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: white marks. You would see horizontal marks that I left 467 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: behind which you're naked, which are invisible to the naked eye. 468 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: But under luminol you would see that pattern going back 469 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: and forth horizontally where I wiped it with a paper towel. 470 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: With the lights on and aluminal, you wouldn't see a thing. 471 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: But with a luminol on, which makes it blood show 472 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: up like a black light poster, you would see that 473 00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: pattern as opposed to blood spatter sp a teeth t 474 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: er blood spatter which comes from the stabbing, like pinpoint 475 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: marks of blood spatter everywhere. Then there's quote throwback when 476 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: you stab somebody and then you bring the knife back 477 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: up into the air, blood throws back off the knife. 478 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: That gives you a different blood pattern. Then there's dripping. 479 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: For instance, think of Jody Arius and Travis Alexander. As 480 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: he was dying, he looked in the mirror and blood 481 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: dripped off of his face and there was a blood 482 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: dropped several drops there, perfectly round, like little bitty pools 483 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: of blood. That's a blood drop, blood spatter, throwback, clean up. 484 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: They all look very, very drastically different upon close inspection. 485 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: I think I said that correctly, Mickey Sherman did. That 486 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: makes sense. It does, but so often I'm not saying 487 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: it's totally junk science, but even the best of the 488 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: pathologists and the friends of people sometimes just kind of 489 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: shaved the edges of the jigsaw persons to make it 490 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: off fit. So I'm not the biggest proponent. Can we 491 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: talk about the money, John Limley, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, 492 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: What can you tell me about the money? What was 493 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: he spending money on? By the way, Jackie managed to 494 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: pull up what is that? Party Games? Is that the 495 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: name of it? It's a horror book or series by Stein. 496 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: Now I think it's R. L. Stein. You probably all 497 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: saw the movie with one of my favorite actors, Jack Black, awesome. 498 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,399 Speaker 1: I fell in love with Black during Nacho Libre. Uh. 499 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: But he Um and Stein, they're all horror books typically 500 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: started off for children, scary stories for children, then turned 501 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: into like scary stories for twains. Than they got scarier 502 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: and scarier. This is a scary ryl Stein story that 503 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: he had. But I'm more concern about his face being 504 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: stuck into American psycho sayings about a serial killer. But 505 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: John Lanley, can we get back to the money right? 506 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: The those search warrants you mentioned earlier, Um, where they 507 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: were looking into these possible money problems, Well, those newly 508 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: released documents give us a little glimpse inside Lauren phelps 509 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: mind in the weeks leading up to her murder. Uh. 510 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: You also mentioned those devices that were seized. Those included 511 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: cell phones, and they were able to read text messages 512 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: where Lauren was communicating with family and friends. And in 513 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: one text message, she said she was tired of arguing 514 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: every single day with Matthew and that she maybe done 515 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: with the relationship and no small part because of this 516 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: money that was just disappearing. Could you who was it 517 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: that said that she was selling sensei? What is sensei? 518 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: Sense is simply a site where you can buy all 519 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: sorts of of scented products. Like the name implies, whether 520 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: it's those oil infusers uh, candles uh, just different, as 521 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: my grandmother would say, smell goods for the house. John Lemley, 522 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: you seem to know a lot about oil infusing and 523 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: pot pourri. I'm not going to go there with you, actually, 524 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,919 Speaker 1: but I will tell you that because of her sensitive nose, 525 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: when Jackie comes over to visit, I have to hide 526 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: all of that. It's Jackie, that's right, Jackie. You cause 527 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: a lot of problems today. So what about that? Lauren Howard, 528 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: the wife works all day. I think she was an accountant. 529 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: She went to school for that. She is an accountant. 530 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: She has a day job. And at night, the night 531 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: before she died, she was posting Facebook videos trying to 532 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: get people to buy SENSEI I'm looking at it right 533 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: right now. It's um room sprays, a sense circle. I 534 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: don't know what that is. A sense bar o accidentally 535 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: in love room spray? Um what else am I neating? 536 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: All you need is love room spray. I don't know 537 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: what a sense circle is, but he's right, John Linley's right. 538 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: Um Apricot vanilla, blue, hyacinth, caramels, sugar cone, room spray. 539 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: It just goes on and on and on. So he's 540 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: he's right. So she works all day and then comes 541 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: home and tries to sell since on Facebook while her 542 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: husband's laid up on the sofa eating chips. Right right, 543 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: I had did not even have a hard day, molling 544 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: the question, I don't know. Did he work? Didn't he 545 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: have a hard days? I don't know. Let me find 546 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: that out. Hold on how often did he landscape? You know, 547 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: I have not come a lot across a lot of 548 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: details from that, but it was keeping him busy at 549 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: least a couple of days a week while he was 550 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: also uh studying for the pastor Okay, with that in mind, 551 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: Lauren Howard, go ahead, Yancy. I mean, we're not here 552 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: to judge who was working harder. I am. We know 553 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. We know that she was dissatisfied with 554 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 1: the relationship. This isn't a divorce court where we have 555 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: to decide whether or not she was right to be 556 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: dissatisfied with the marriage. She was satisfied with the marriage. 557 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 1: She had articulated that to friends and family. Clearly he 558 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 1: knew that this is all about what's going on under 559 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: the surface for him, what his concerns are, what his fears, 560 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: what his need for survival is about, and so his 561 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,439 Speaker 1: impulses which are hidden beneath um sobriety. If you will 562 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: get released by him, have a mind altering substance in 563 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: him his choice. By the way, he's the one who 564 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: took the custer and took too much of the cluster, 565 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: which he also admits and Cornsinen is being abused by teenagers. 566 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: It's a it's a rampant problem because he's pushing thirty, 567 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: he's got a Bible college degree, he hasn't gotten a 568 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: job or a church. Purfectly over overused corsin. He says 569 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: that actually on the call, So Dr William Moroney, you're 570 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: you're raising a bunch of children just like me and 571 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: working you might I can just tell you this. I'm 572 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: not sure what Lauren and Mikey Sureman are talking about 573 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: about the hard day cutting grass, but I can tell 574 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: you this much. If I am going to work two 575 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: or three jobs and raise the children, when I get 576 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: up and go and put my feet on the ground 577 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: and start working at five thirty in the morning, my husband, 578 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: God bless him, had better be up working too. I 579 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm not working two or three jobs for him to 580 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,919 Speaker 1: sit on the sofa and watch all movies that that's 581 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: not happening. Luckily, I hit pay dirt and got somebody 582 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: that works like a demon. So I'm happy, very happy 583 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: that he has the same work ethic as me. But 584 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, how would your wife feel. Let's just make 585 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: this personal. If she's out working like a dog and 586 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: you're kicked back having your morning coffee when she heads 587 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: out the door to work, that's not a good look, 588 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: Dr Maroney. She'd make it really clear and call me 589 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: a bum because she's that clear and transparent and and 590 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: there is no other way you can describe a man 591 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: married to a hard working woman. That's a significant meal ticket. 592 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: He should be the provider and the protector. He's missing 593 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: all these good old Testament messages. He's he's really conflicted. 594 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: I don't see him making any direction to being that 595 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: biblical provider, protector, husband and father in the future. This 596 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 1: thing is so messed up. There's so many moral caveats. 597 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 1: If the conundrums here drowned you, and then on top 598 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: of that, you throw in substance abuse in somebody that 599 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: wants to be a pastor, he needs recovery, he needs 600 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: sobriety here, and someone that actually says Dr Maroney to 601 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: his friends. Gee, I wonder what it would be like 602 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: to murder somebody before I get to that fun fact. 603 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: Lauren Howard, New York psychotherapist, Laurence I'm basing what I think, 604 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 1: how I think things should be. This is not for everybody, 605 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: but it's for me because I saw my dad getting 606 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: up take doing whatever job the railroad gave him to do, 607 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: working his whole life forty three plus years on the railroad, 608 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: and and and never complaining no matter what job they 609 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: gave him. Same thing for my mom. She was the 610 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: same way. So I see, I think that's how it 611 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: should be. And I don't expect everybody to share my money. 612 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I agree with you, But you 613 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:18,240 Speaker 1: know what, not every lazy couch lying, not more ethic 614 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: husband stabbed since where twenty three times? You know? So 615 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: the the ethics of his behavior become irrelevant in the 616 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: context of is this guy guilty of a heinous Heinus cried, which, 617 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: by the way, where did the knife come from? Which 618 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: would kind of prove pre meditation if he had it 619 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: in his night table drawer. I mean, where is this 620 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: knife he used to stab for a hundred twenty three times? 621 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: Was that easily accessible? Did he get out of bed 622 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: and go into the kitchen and get it? Was it 623 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: a hunting knife? Was it a kitchen knife? Does anybody know? 624 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean, that's let me find it. Literally with me, 625 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: Crime Stories, investigative reporter. Where was the knife? Where did 626 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: it come from? And what happened to it? That information 627 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,839 Speaker 1: seems to be withheld. We just know that there was 628 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: a bloody knife on the bed, actually was on the 629 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: floor by the time investigator police arrived. U. One interesting 630 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: thing on the going back to sort of his uh, 631 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: sort of prophesying his actions to come, is his Instagram page. 632 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: He had this alter ego UH that was more like 633 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: the American psycho character on Instagram, and in one photo 634 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: on that page he quoted the band corn Uh stating 635 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: I can't get out of bed. There is evil in 636 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: my head. Just let me be. He also had a 637 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 1: Tumbler page and he wrote about his strange sleeping patterns um. 638 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,959 Speaker 1: In fact, here's a direct quote from tumbler. Ever since 639 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: I was little I've had some strong activity with my dreams. Nightmares, 640 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: night terrors, sleepwalking, hallucinations, controlled dreams have all filled my 641 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: life so far. He's really, yeah, he's he's he's really 642 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: sort of predicting, so to speak, what's to come? Just 643 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: just look at her right now? Is it became Tell 644 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:17,720 Speaker 1: of what you see is he gets the chest moving 645 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: and she's breathing anything at all. She's he's so deserves 646 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: this dried on me, it's dried. The bloods is not 647 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: wet on me. The blood is dry. Okay, I don't 648 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: know what. All right, Well, at least we're gonna at 649 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: least child help her. Okay, all right, just give me this. Well, 650 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:08,839 Speaker 1: I can see your book. Mickey Sherman, renowned criminal defense 651 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: attorney based out of Connecticut. Mickey, what does it mean 652 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: to you? Because I think you and I have the 653 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: same thought on this that forty four of the wounds 654 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: he inflicted upon his young wife were around the face 655 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 1: and neck. Forty four stab wounds around the face and neck. 656 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: A profiler would have a ball with that. That And clearly, 657 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: as I said, this was a crime of passion. And 658 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,800 Speaker 1: that's why you have such an egregious set of injuries 659 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: which we've seen before. The woman who drowned her five 660 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: kids in Texas, and I'm talking about Andrew Yates drown Yes, yes, 661 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: if you, if you, if you recall, there's there's a 662 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: woman who serially one by one round her five little 663 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,760 Speaker 1: kids in the back room. Yet she was not found 664 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,760 Speaker 1: guilty but not guilty by reason insanity on her first trial. 665 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 1: So as I said, there's no slam dunks in the 666 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: insanity boom, Yeah, I hear you. I think that the 667 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: jury is going to view a mother whose husband had 668 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: her living in a school bus at one point and 669 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: of five children, with all these mental issues she had 670 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,319 Speaker 1: in the past. Think they're going to find him. They're 671 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: gonna treat this guy, Matthew Phelps differently. I'm curious about 672 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: the postings that Limley and Lauren Howard were talking about 673 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: about his sleep disorders, how close to the murder they were, 674 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: Because if they were very close and he's talking about 675 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: his dream activity, was he pre planning the murder? Because 676 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: that night John Limley Crime Stories investigative reporter, didn't he 677 00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: say that night I dreamed it. Yes, he told the 678 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,320 Speaker 1: nine one one dispatcher that he had this odd dream 679 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 1: that he had killed his wife and that he quote 680 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: well paraphrasing here, he awoke to find that that dream 681 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: was true. Long story short, we are just learning from 682 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: search warrants that he had an obsession with American psycho 683 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: to the point that he would put his own face 684 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: into movie scenes where the serial killer was depicted and 685 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: talked to friends about what it would be like the 686 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:42,919 Speaker 1: sensation of murdering someone. The case goes on, and all 687 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: we can do for Lauren now is seek justice. Nancy 688 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend.