1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: It's been called the cockroach of typefaces, a font of 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: ill will and the default punchline in the design community. 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: We're talking about comic Sands, that round, friendly, comic book 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: style font that everyone loves to hate. But why how 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: did hating comic Sands become a kind of shorthand for 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: good taste? And how did this particular font, one of 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: only a few most people can name on site, end 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: up as a cultural joke. Comic Sands was created for 9 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: a very specific purpose at a very specific time, a 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: time before social media, algorithms, AI everything and cyber trucks, 11 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: when tech was trying to be approachable, accessible, friendlier, even fun. 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: An awful lot has changed since then. You hear news 13 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: of slip dresses, CDs and other nineties relics having a resurgence. 14 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: Why not comic Sans. Is it really fair to hate 15 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: on a font so much? Because it's possible Comic Sans 16 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: actually succeeded, just not in a way it's critics ever imagined. 17 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to very special episodes and Iheart's original podcast. I'm 18 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: your host Danish Swartz and this is how a dog 19 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: talks the surprising redemption of Comic Sans. 20 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: Hey welcome back to very special episodes. I'm Jason English. 21 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: She is Danish Swartz Hey, he is Aaron Burnette. I 22 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: know you heard that to any of you have Comic 23 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: Sans sublot from your own lives. 24 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: You know what I'll say. I started resenting the Comic 25 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: Sans backlash because it felt very lazy. I don't like 26 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: when people just sort of bandwagon on a thing they're 27 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: told to hate. When I'm like half the people, probably 28 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: ninety percent of the people pretending, you know, hating Comic 29 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: Sans online, It's like, when have you ever had an 30 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: opinion about a fun You're just making fun of people 31 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: that you perceive to be like unsophisticated or not like 32 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: in the know like you. 33 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 3: So I just I have a. 34 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: Knee jerk reaction always to kind of defend the underdog 35 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: against people looking for an opportunity just to be snarky. 36 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: So I'm pro Comic Sans. 37 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 4: I'm right there with you, Dan, I's true the exact 38 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 4: same reasoning, Like I always stick up for the underdog, 39 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 4: and Comic Sans is like the super underdog. 40 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 2: I have a quick story. Very early in my career, 41 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: I'm working as a junior copywriter. Maybe even an intern 42 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: copy writer at that point at a at an ad 43 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: agency here in New York. And if you remember Chandler 44 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: that season on Friends, I think that was me and 45 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: my brilliant British creative director boss had brought me into 46 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: work on a kids candy campaign and we had all 47 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: these headlines and I'm gathering them into a presentation, and 48 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 2: because it's supposed to be coming out of the bounds 49 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: of kids, I am using a comic sans font and 50 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: I'm nervous anyways, again very early on, right after college, 51 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: and he comes in to review them in my little 52 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: cube and I'm nervously scrolling and showing them on the screen, 53 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: and he looks me right in the eye and says, 54 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: I hate this spont and then that was it, walked away, 55 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: no comments on any of the work, probably hours and 56 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: hours days. So I have been scarred by that, and 57 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: I want to see a redemption here. 58 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: Totally amazing picture this. 59 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: It's a sunny day in nineteen ninety four. You're on 60 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: the leafy campus of Microsoft in Redmond, Washington, not far 61 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: from Seattle. Microsoft is already a behemoth. It's powerful, profitable, 62 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: and poised. Nineteen ninety four is the first year that 63 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: Americans spend almost as much money on computers as they 64 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: do on television sets. And this is just before Windows 65 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: ninety five changes everything. 66 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 5: I think that they were growing fast. They were obviously 67 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 5: very productive at that moment in time. They're cranking stuff out. 68 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 5: Optimism is high in the nineties. 69 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: That's Terrence, a type designer who worked on updating comic 70 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: sans for twenty first century use. 71 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 5: My name is Terrence Winsrel. I am an executive creative 72 00:04:53,320 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 5: director at Monotype and Monotype Designs distributes and manages fonts 73 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 5: all over the world. 74 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: Even though he wasn't working at Microsoft back then, Terrence 75 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: knows a bit about how fonts got made in those 76 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: heady days of nineteen ninety four. Comic Sands is very 77 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: much a relic of the nineties, a time when computers 78 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: were clunky, weird and oddly optimistic before tech got sleek 79 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: and intimidating. 80 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 3: It was trying to be friendly. 81 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 5: They were experimenting, and I think they were trying everything, 82 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 5: and really computer interfaces were new, and so something like 83 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 5: Microsoft Bob and this skewomorphism was really an extreme example 84 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 5: of how can we take this new tool and make 85 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 5: it as approachable as possible and make people want to 86 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 5: learn it. 87 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: Skewomorphism is a design strategy that brings something from the 88 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: old into the new to make it more acceptable. Think 89 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: of how the tracks on your computer looks like a 90 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: trash can. That strategy helped a lot of people in 91 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: the early nineties, when personal computers were new and scary. 92 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: Bob took skewmorphism and turned the dial all the way up, 93 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: replacing your desktop with a cartoon room where every object 94 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: had a job. 95 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 3: When you open Bob, you. 96 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: Are greeted by a shiny gold door knocker on a 97 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: bright red door. 98 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: Let me see what I've got in here? Tell us 99 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 3: something little scootie beds to thank you. 100 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: No, this is my mailing live knock, and suddenly are 101 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: inside a cozy, if garish living room. There's a roaring fireplace, 102 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: a striped armchair, a coffee table, and helpful props everywhere. 103 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: A rolodex, a wall calendar, a checkbook resting nearby. Bob's 104 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,559 Speaker 1: goal was to make using your computer simple, friendly and clear. 105 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: Want to balance your checkbook, Click the checkbook, need to 106 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: see your schedule, tap the calendar looking for someone's number. Obviously, 107 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: the Rolodex. And this wasn't some fringe side project. Bob 108 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: had serious people behind it. The marketing manager was Melinda French, 109 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: who had just married Bill Gates. She might have had 110 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: something to do with Bob's tagline introducing hard working, easygoing 111 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: software everyone will use. 112 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: That didn't quite work out. 113 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: Bob was supposed to be so easy to use that 114 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: it didn't even come with a manual. It did, however, 115 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: ship with a copy of Bob Magazine, including a feature 116 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: describing a perfect day with Bob writing letters, paying bills, 117 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: planning reunions, ordering pizza, and still getting. 118 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 3: To bed by eleven. 119 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: But the key part of Bob for our story is 120 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: that it came with assistance, officially known as the Friends 121 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: of Bob. They helped you use the program and customize 122 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: your space. Options included Chaos the Cat or Be the Globe, Java, the. 123 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: Coffee drinking reptile, and Scuz the rat. 124 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: Scuz would occasionally rummage through a garbage can, but the 125 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: default assistant was Rover, an easy to work with golden retriever. 126 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: Clicking on him would bring up a dialogue bubble, with 127 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: Rover saying I can dig up information and fetch whatever 128 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: you need. Oh, and I'll stay off the furniture. And 129 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: it's those dialogue bubbles from Rover that we have to 130 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: thank for comic SAMs. 131 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 132 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 5: So Vinnie is at Microsoft and he sees this cartoon 133 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 5: dog speaking in Times to Roman, and like any good 134 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 5: typographer type designer, he thinks, to this doesn't fit the 135 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 5: vibe of this typeface doesn't match the rest of the interface. 136 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: Vinnie is type designer Vincent Connair, who joined Microsoft in 137 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. Vincent told us he's now retired from 138 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: doing interviews about Comic Sands. But when Twitter user at 139 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: Rectrek ninety seven asked him, why did you create Comic Sands, bro, 140 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: he replied, the Microsoft Bob team asked me what I 141 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: thought of their dog talking in Times New Roman. He 142 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: told them that is not how a dog talks. Vincent 143 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: had a fair bit of freedom at Microsoft. He told 144 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 1: the author Simon Garfield quote, it was nothing like the 145 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: traditional type production. It was me in a room, not 146 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: answering to anybody and not following the rules. In the nineties, 147 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: there was this punk mentality around digital type because it 148 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: was still quite new. All kinds of wacky stuff. People 149 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: were scanning things in and converting and stealing. Vincent didn't 150 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: steal anything to create comic Sands, but he did have inspirations. 151 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 5: So he's inspired by comic book lettering, and he has 152 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 5: some comic books in his office, so he designs comic 153 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 5: sands to replace Times Roman in this specific kind of 154 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 5: use case with this cartoon. And apparently he made it 155 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 5: very quickly, and he drew it with a digital pen only. 156 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: Vincent has said that he drew the font in a 157 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: program called Macromedia Fontographer. A big fan of comics and 158 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: graphic novels, he was particularly inspired by the lettering in 159 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: Watchman and Batman The Dark Knight Returns. The font was 160 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: meant to be friendly, not perfect. At first, it wasn't 161 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: even a complete typeface. The spacing was inconsistent, the shapes 162 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: didn't all match. Lowercase p D wasn't a mere opposite 163 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: of Q as it often is in sans seraph fonts. 164 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: In other words, Comic Sands broke all the rules. Vincent 165 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: has said the joy for me was not making it 166 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: right or perfect or straight. His boss at Microsoft, Robert Norton, 167 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: reportedly offered suggestions for tightening things up, but Vincent liked 168 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: the wonkiness, with each letter its own shape. Alas Comic 169 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: Sans never actually made it into Bob, Rover kept on 170 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: speaking in Time's New Roman, perhaps because Comic Sands didn't 171 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: quite fit inside the speech bubbles. Bob itself was a massive, 172 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:49,479 Speaker 1: memorable flop. Time magazine named it among the fifty worst inventions, 173 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: alongside new Coke and subprime mortgages. The flop wasn't because 174 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: of its fonts. Bob was incompatible with most of its time. 175 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: For one thing, the program required eight megabytes of memory, 176 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: about twice the typical amount of many home PCs. Then 177 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: plus reviewers found the program and its cartoon helpers infantilizing. 178 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: It seemed better suited for kids than smart adult who 179 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: just needed an on ramp to a new technology. But 180 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: Comic Sans didn't sync with Bob. The font showed up 181 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: in a program called three D Movie Maker and was 182 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: released as a bonus product to Windows ninety five, then 183 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: a full system font. It also ended up on Microsoft 184 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: products designed for Max so it. 185 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 5: Gets bundled into Windows ninety five, which is a smashing success. Right, 186 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 5: They're just millions of copies of Windows ninety five going out, 187 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 5: and Comic Sands goes along with it. So the most 188 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 5: important part of the popularity of Comic Sans is, frankly, 189 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 5: the distribution. Comic Sans is on millions of computers, in 190 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 5: the hands of millions of people who are not classically 191 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 5: trained graphic designers, and so they're going to choose typefaces 192 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 5: at free will. That's when it goes wild. 193 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: Comic Sands didn't become popular because it was perfect. It 194 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: became popular because it was everywhere. At Microsoft, Vincent noticed 195 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: people using comic Sands for birthday party invitations and event 196 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: sign ups. There were only a handful of font choices 197 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: on Windows ninety five. Ariel Courier new a few others, 198 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: Comic Sans was the only one that felt like it 199 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: had a pulse. 200 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 5: And so if you think about comic Sans is really 201 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 5: standing out in a room full of suits other formal typefaces, 202 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 5: Comic Sans is like the denim on the rack, and 203 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 5: it stands out as being the most human, the most casual, 204 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 5: the most approachable, the most humble, the most friendly typeface 205 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 5: in that list. 206 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: But once Comic Sans escaped into the wild, something unexpected happened. 207 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: Because when everybody suddenly has access to the same tools, 208 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: not to everyone agrees on. 209 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: How they should be used or who should be using them. 210 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 6: Early type designing and setting was so laborious that it 211 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 6: is a blasphemy to the history of the craft that 212 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 6: any fool can sit down at their personal computer and 213 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 6: design their own typeface. Technological advances have transformed typography into 214 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 6: a tawdry triviality. 215 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: That screed comes from the Ban Comic Sands Facebook page. 216 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: It's a place where users gather to trade what they 217 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: see as the most egregious uses of the font. A 218 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: war monument in share, a hospital referral form, a mosaic 219 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: in Italy, a condolence notice, a church bulletin places where 220 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: the tone is supposed to be solemn, and suddenly it's not. 221 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: Where the wrong typeface doesn't just look bad, it feels 222 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: like a violation. Comic Sans wasn't just showing up, It 223 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: was showing up in all the wrong places. That text 224 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: didn't just live on Facebook either, It originally appeared on 225 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: the website for the Ban Comic Sans campaign, started in 226 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and two. The campaign included a manifesto, posters 227 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: and stickers, a small arsenal of typographic enforcement, and it 228 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: all went back to one man. 229 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 7: When I first experienced comic sans, I thought it was 230 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 7: poorly designed. I thought it was kind of childish and silly. 231 00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: That man is Dave Combs. 232 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 7: I'm a graphic designer, artist, publisher, a bit of a miscreant, 233 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 7: and an instigator in some ways, I'm a typography nerd 234 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 7: I guess you could. 235 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: Say, Dave noticed that comic sands was being used in 236 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: serious contexts. 237 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 7: Such as medical information, important flyers, and things that people 238 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 7: should take seriously, and that offended me as a typography 239 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 7: you know, kind of aficionado, I guess you would say, 240 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 7: and so I kind of knee jerk reaction, started a 241 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 7: campaign to ban it. 242 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: To people who cared deeply about design, typography is a signal. 243 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 3: It tells you what serious, what's casual, what deserves respect. 244 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: And Dave wasn't alone in objecting to these uses of 245 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: comic sands. When his partner, Holly, a fellow graphic designer, 246 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: got a gig working for a museum in Indianapolis, she 247 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: discovered that they wanted text for an entire exhibit set 248 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: in comic sands. 249 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 7: This was very offensive like her sensibilities, and so when 250 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 7: she brought it to me and told me that's what 251 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 7: she was doing. That also sparked the impetus to like, 252 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 7: what are we going to do about this? So I 253 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 7: was like, well, this is a complaint and let's just 254 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 7: be in comic scans. 255 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: He became, in his words, the self appointed typography police. 256 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: No badge, no jurisdiction, no warrants. But he did have stickers. 257 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 1: Dave made a run of them that said ban comic Sans. 258 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: Some included an image of Vincent Conair's face. He placed 259 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: them on a doctor's office sign that said accepting new 260 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: patients in comic Sans. The result the office switched to 261 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: Times New Roman. Dave silkscreened T shirts saying ban comic Sans. 262 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: He made mugs, He created a website with downloadable stickers 263 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: that anyone could print. Before long, the ban Comic Sans 264 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: campaign reached a wider audience than Dave or Holly could 265 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: have imagined. Emails poured in from graphic designers and typography 266 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: enthusiasts worldwide. 267 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 3: The press noticed. 268 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: One of the first mentions of the campaign came in 269 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and four. Canada's National Post quoted the movement's 270 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: manifesto comparing the use of comic sans in serious contexts 271 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: to showing up at a black tie event dressed as 272 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: a clown. 273 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 3: It's a metaphor that only. 274 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: Works if you already know the dress code, and comic 275 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: sands became a quick way to tell who did and 276 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: who didn't. Not knowing when to use comic sands was 277 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: a cultural shorthand signaling taste, education, belonging, or lack thereof. 278 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: If you knew, you knew, if you didn't. 279 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: It showed what almost no one was talking about in 280 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: those conversations was who gets left out when taste gets policed. 281 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: And it didn't stop with Dave's stickers. There were message 282 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: boards and online groups devoted entirely to mocking comic sands. 283 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: People shared sightings and photos like birdwatchers, but angrier chrome 284 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: extensions were built to erase it from websites. One design 285 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: agency even released a flash based shooting game called Kill 286 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: Comic Sands, which is a lot of energy for a font. 287 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: But why did comic sands provoke such ire even among 288 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: people who don't consider themselves to be font nerds. One 289 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: typography expert has some thoughts. 290 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 8: I'm Thomas Finney, and I do fonts and I kind 291 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 8: of do everything to do with thoughts in one stripe 292 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 8: or another. 293 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: Thomas is quick to note that he is not part 294 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: of the backlash movement. 295 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 8: I think comic Sands is perfectly fine for some uses. 296 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 8: Was it overused? 297 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 9: Sure? 298 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 8: Were the reasons it was over used understandable? Why? Yes? 299 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 8: But the backlash I think happened precisely because it was 300 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 8: used so heavily, and because it was, at least some 301 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 8: of the time used in situations where it was perhaps inappropriate. 302 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 8: And on top of that, though, it really feels like 303 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 8: there's some sort of bandwagon effect, and some of the 304 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 8: people who turned up their noses that comic Sans got 305 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 8: a kick out of pointing out howledgible and superior they 306 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 8: were or something. 307 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: In other words, hating comic Sands became a short cut 308 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: of sorts, a way to perform taste. It wasn't really 309 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: about the font anymore. Terrence Winzerel has an analogy for 310 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: why the typeface made some designers so enraged. 311 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 5: I think it makes people upset because they see it 312 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 5: as a missed opportunity for the use of a better 313 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 5: typeface that fits that scenario. Better, let me hit you 314 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 5: with an analogy. Fonts are like shoes. They have an 315 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 5: esthetic quality and they have utility, and so Comic Sands 316 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 5: is like the crocks of the shoe world is super casual, 317 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 5: and so if you were a shoe designer and you 318 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 5: saw the populative crocs, it would probably burn you. 319 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: Eventually, word about the ban Comic Sands campaign got back 320 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: to Vincent Conair. He was not amused. What's the point? 321 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: Haven't they got anything better to do? He complained to 322 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: one journalist. 323 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 3: This wasn't just a joke. 324 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: To Vincent, it was his work, his name, his reputation 325 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: turned into a punchline. Not only was his typeface being 326 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: publicly roasted, but his face was on the stickers. Imagine 327 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: walking into a cafe and seeing your own head used 328 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: as a warning label. 329 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 7: And he said, you need to stop doing this because 330 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 7: you're making me look bad. This is my careers, what 331 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 7: I do, and I don't appreciate using my image on 332 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 7: your merchandise or whatever. 333 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: It never became a full blown feud, but it did 334 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: get awkward. The design world is tiny, the typography forums 335 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: even tinier. Before long, a member of a typography forum, 336 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: the men were both in stepped in to break up 337 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: the spat, and when the two men realized they had 338 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: been invited to the same event in London, they chose 339 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: de tent over drama, a quiet handshake, ending a surprisingly 340 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: personal skirmish. 341 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 3: By then, something had started to change for Dave. 342 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 7: We both appreciate typography, and Vincent is a very creative individual, 343 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 7: so am I and I started to see him more 344 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 7: as a human than as a bad guy who made 345 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 7: a bad font. 346 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: You know, once comic Sans had a face and a story, 347 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: it became harder to treat it as a punchline or 348 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: a crime. 349 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 7: I mean, he was just trying to make something better 350 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 7: that didn't look right to him. He wasn't planning on 351 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 7: it being released to the world as a typeface that 352 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 7: would be, you know, on every flyer, in every website. 353 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 7: You know, he was trying to solve a single problem, 354 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 7: and then it kind of went viral. 355 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: To Thomas Finney, the fact that the typeface escaped its 356 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: original confines is actually a good sign. 357 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,479 Speaker 8: I think it speaks to the strength of the design. 358 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 8: I think it's pretty impressive and cool that something that 359 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 8: was originally designed for such an arrow use case talking dog, 360 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 8: user interface, word balloons on screen, you know has become 361 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 8: this cultural phenomenon that's wild and very cool. 362 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: These days, Dave Combs has changed his mind entirely about 363 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: Comic Sands. He's also come to understand something about how 364 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: creativity gets judged and what that feels like. 365 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 7: I have kind of a silly personality sometimes, and sometimes 366 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 7: I just kind of feel like I'm always in their 367 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 7: own context too. I feel like places that I don't belong, 368 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 7: So I get it. Comic Sands. It's rough out there, 369 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 7: you know, and you get a lot of hate from 370 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 7: people that maybe just don't understand you. So I feel 371 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 7: like comic scans is misunderstood more than anything, and I 372 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 7: can relate to that. 373 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: Dave now uses comic Sands on his business card. Call 374 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: it a typographical apology. 375 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 7: I intentionally use comic Sands because rapalsna. 376 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: After all, that's what comic Sands was built for, to 377 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: be friendly. And it turns out Comic Sans has been 378 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: helping people all along, just not the people doing the mocking. 379 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 9: So around two thousand and eight and two thousand and nine, 380 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 9: I was like, why does writing on the computer have 381 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 9: to be exactly as hard as writing by hand? 382 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: That's Thrandy Hudgens, an American studying for his PhD in 383 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: biology at the University of Saint Andrew's in Scotland. 384 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 7: Yes, I work on old fishing records. 385 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: Thrandy has spent much of his life on ships, not 386 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: very connected to the world of technology. But around two 387 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, during a stint in New Zealand, his 388 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: family began asking him to stay in touch more via 389 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: email and Facebook, and he wanted to stay in touch 390 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: more with his friends back home. But writing had always 391 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: been hard for Thrandy, and that's when he discovered the 392 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: magic of comic Sands. By typing out his emails in 393 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: word first and adjusting the font, it became a whole 394 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: lot easier to communicate. 395 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 9: When I began to play with the different fonts. That 396 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 9: was when I began to really first interact with comic sense. 397 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 9: But at the time I did not know what I 398 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 9: was doing. I just knew that when I used the 399 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 9: fun fonds, it was easier to write my emails, to 400 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 9: send to my sister, to my dad, to my friends. 401 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: Thrandy thought that using comic Sands made it easier for 402 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: him to write, just because the font sparked joy. Perhaps 403 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: the feeling of playfulness took away some of the stress 404 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: that had always been associated with writing for him. You see, 405 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: Thrandy had dyslexia like an estimated fifteen to twenty percent 406 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 1: of Americans, and that's not all. 407 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 9: So I actually have what I'm pretty sure is like 408 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 9: a sub type of dyslexia. My handwriting is appallingly bad, 409 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 9: and I cannot make letters, and I cannot write by 410 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 9: hand to save my life. 411 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: For some people with dyslexia, comic Sands is easier to read, 412 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: and the reason might have to do with the very 413 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: thing some designers criticized. Remember those wonky uneven letters mentioned earlier, 414 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: where each letter is its own shape, the very thing 415 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: that broke all the font rules. 416 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 3: That's a big part of what. So what makes comic 417 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: Sands work for Thrandy and others? 418 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: Our typography expert Terrence says that quirkiness might actually be 419 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: a gift. 420 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 5: I do think it's interesting that there are no repeated 421 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 5: shapes in comic Sands, so nothing is a mirror image 422 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 5: of itself in the way that other kind of geometric 423 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 5: typefaces are. I think that can help people because each 424 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 5: shape is unique, which is something that we look for 425 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 5: in legible typefaces. 426 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 9: For Thrandy that tracks, and because the letters are differently shaped, 427 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 9: it doesn't get as wibbly with your eyes when you're 428 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 9: trying to read it because the letters aren't reflected, and 429 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 9: it can be so much easier to read for dyslexis. 430 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: So when letters aren't mirror images, meaning when each one 431 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: has its own distinct shape, they're potentially easier to process 432 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: and easier to read for some people like Thrandy, who's 433 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: more concerned about access than esthetics. 434 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 9: So of course I read all of my documents in 435 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 9: comic sans. At this point, I'm sending emails and comic sands, 436 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 9: I'm sending drafts and comic sens. I want to write 437 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 9: my whole damn dissertation in comic sense. Thank you very much. 438 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 9: So I've gotten you, like really advocating quite hard for 439 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 9: it and using it in my day to day life. 440 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: Over the years, designers have tried to create typefaces specifically 441 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: for people with dyslexia, like DYSLEXI and open dyslexic, but 442 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: no single typeface works because dyslexia itself is different from 443 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: person to person. So far, research hasn't identified a magic bullet, 444 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: but Some organizations, including the British Dyslexia Association, have pointed 445 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: to comic sands as a helpful option. 446 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 3: And when it comes to. 447 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: Accessibility, lived experience matters, people often know what works for 448 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: them better than any study does. 449 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 9: And now there's lots of dyslexic friendly thoughts, but back 450 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 9: you know, in two thousand and eight, there wasn't. It 451 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 9: was just comic sans. This is the thought that I've 452 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 9: been using for twenty years. When I was nineteen years old, 453 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 9: I could barely write a paragraph. Now I am thirty 454 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 9: nine and doing my PhD. 455 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: It took years of advocating for himself, but he's found 456 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: a degree of acceptance at Saint Andrew's when it comes 457 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 1: to using comic sans. 458 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 9: Is it still hard? Yes, But I think fundamentally people 459 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 9: are more inclined to just say meh. 460 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: If they say it works, it works beyond the academic 461 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: bubble though, it's a different. 462 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 9: Story outside of the university. I find that people are 463 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 9: still fundamentally very judgmental about comic sands. And I don't 464 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 9: know why. Why do people have such strong opinions about 465 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 9: a fought For me? It's the difference between having a 466 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 9: degree and not having a degree, and then having a 467 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 9: doctorate and not having a doctorate, and for you, what 468 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 9: it makes you? You don't like looking at it? How 469 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 9: can you possibly think these two things are comparable? 470 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: The gap between what works and what air quote looks 471 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: right doesn't stay on the page. Thrandy is used to 472 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: being judged for his choice of font, but when Comic 473 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: Sans appears in the wild, something else happens. 474 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 9: When I see that someone has printed a brochure in 475 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 9: comic Sans for their store, or for their how to 476 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 9: access the food bank or how to file your taxes, 477 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 9: I really get happy. To me, it feels like accessibility. 478 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 9: You've put the thought in to understand. At the very least, 479 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 9: people cannot read Times New Roman well. 480 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: And so maybe Comic Sans did exactly what it was 481 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: designed to do. Microsoft Bob may have flopped, but the 482 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: idea behind it to make technology feel more friendly, more accessible, didn't. 483 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: This funny, round friendly font has been a surprise success 484 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: in some contexts and broken down barriers. 485 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 5: If Comic Sans helps a dyslexic person read better faster, 486 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 5: that's great for society. So Comic Sans has earned its 487 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 5: right to exist. 488 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: When terreen Weinederell refreshed the typeface in twenty ten, he 489 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: leaned even further into the comic book vibe. 490 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 5: Comic Sans has this imperfect human voice that really made 491 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 5: it stand out, and it reminded me of lobby sabby 492 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 5: art and philosophy and about kind of celebrating the imperfections 493 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 5: of it. Art doesn't have to be beautiful to be effective, 494 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 5: and I think that is another good conclusion for Comic Sans. 495 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 5: It doesn't have to be perfect to fulfill its duty. 496 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to impress designers or win arguments online. 497 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 3: Sometimes it just. 498 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: Has to help someone, and not for nothing. It really 499 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: does sound like a dog, Saren. 500 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: I don't know if you could make a movie out 501 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: of this, but I'm interested to hear if you were 502 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: able to cast this one. 503 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 4: Oh yes, And actually I did a whole vibe casting 504 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 4: on this one. I didn't want to look them all 505 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 4: up and try to decide based on how they look, 506 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 4: what's the closest actor and actress to portray them, So 507 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 4: instead I just went what's the vibe? And so this 508 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 4: is what I came up with for Vincent Canare, the 509 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 4: designer of Comic Sans. I went with Rain Wilson Dwight 510 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 4: from the office. 511 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 3: All right, I see the vision, okay. 512 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 4: And then for the self appointed typography police Dave Combs 513 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 4: and his partner Holly. For Dave, I went with probably 514 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 4: gonna see this coming. John Krasinski is Jim from the 515 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 4: office and his partner Holly Jenna Fisher as Pam from 516 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 4: the office love it. And so for Thrandy Hudgens, the 517 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 4: American studying for his PhD. I went with bj Novak 518 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 4: from the office. So you got a full office casting. 519 00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 4: Let's reunite the cast genies. 520 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 3: Who are you casting as the dog? 521 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 9: Oh? 522 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 7: The virtual dog? 523 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 3: That's the important I did not have a virtual dog. 524 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 4: Do you guys have any ideas? 525 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 1: Gotta work on it. You know, one of my cats 526 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: would be happy to step in. 527 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 7: Oh, I love that call. 528 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: Just to switch it up for the movie. 529 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 4: Have a cat playing a dog. That's very comic, Sands, Yeah, yeah, 530 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 4: Did you guys have a very special character you loved? 531 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 3: I love a cartoon dog, yes, yeah, good call. 532 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 9: Yeah. 533 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: I would extend that honor to all of the friends 534 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 2: of Bob, the Chaos, the Cat, Scuzz the rat, or 535 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: be the Globe, Jama, the reptile. Did you could do 536 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: something with them as like their own yo Gabba gabba? 537 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 4: Oh heck yeah. For me, it was a war monument 538 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 4: in Sherbourg. I was like, well, the fact that that's 539 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 4: Comic Sands, it's just incredible. 540 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: That one I could see the backlash there. Maybe I'm oh, totally, 541 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: I totally would. 542 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 8: That's why I liked it. 543 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 4: I think it's like, come on, I know we need 544 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 4: to be serious with this is very human moment. Also, 545 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 4: can I say that this story just actually pulled my 546 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 4: heartstrings and made me realize something that I had a 547 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 4: special bond with my mother over Comic Sans, which is 548 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 4: she uses Comic Sands for all of her emails. And 549 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 4: I used to roll my eyes, like, oh mom, because 550 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 4: let's get with the times, no more AOL type emails. 551 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 4: But then I realized she was doing it for the 552 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 4: same reasons that Thrandy did it to imbue her emails 553 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 4: with joy. And then I started loving Comic Sants and 554 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 4: now we look forward to her emails with Comic Sans. 555 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,959 Speaker 2: Wow, redemption at. 556 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: Last, right, That's so sweet. 557 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 10: Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people. 558 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 10: Today's episode was produced in partnership with School of Humans. 559 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 10: The show was hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zarren Burnett and 560 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 10: Jason English. Our senior producer is Josh Fisher. Today's episode 561 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 10: was written by Best Love Joy. Our story editor is 562 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 10: Virginia Prescott from School of Humans. Producers are Etily's Perez 563 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 10: and Amelia Brock. Editing and sound design by Jesse Niswanger. 564 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 10: Research in fact checking by Austin Thompson and Best Lovejoy. 565 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 10: Original music by Alise McCoy. Show logo by Lucy Quintonia. 566 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 10: Executive producers of today's episode are Virginia Prescott and Jason English. 567 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 10: Very Special Episodes is a production of iHeart Podcasts. You're 568 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 10: a fan of the show, go give us a nice 569 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 10: rating on your favorite podcast platform. If you everyone to 570 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 10: email us, We're Very Special Episodes at gmail dot com. 571 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 10: We will see you back here next Wednesday.