1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: What's Elon my moskks? This is Behind the Bastards, the 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: podcast that I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is listening to, 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: because within minutes, well like an hour of us starting 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: to record the last two parts of our series on 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: the Illuminati, he posted a very boomer Illuminati meme um 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: extremely funny. The timing was incredible. There's no other explanation 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: but that we have influenced his mind on a deep 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: and possibly a cult level. M You know, I think 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: what's probably to blame for this is last night I 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: ate on a huge quantity of room temperature shrimp covered 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: in thousand island dressing, and then I vomited on the 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: hood of an old tesla. This was this was my 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: emdomancy that I was that I was practicing, and I 14 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: believe it has allowed me to infect Elon's mind with 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: a why are you like this? Why did you? Why 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: did you have to like describe the shrimp? Why? Why? 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: Because otherwise if people don't smell the shrimp, they're not 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: going to believe the rest of the story. Sophie, Alright, 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: I didn't lie at people. You need details gross anyways 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: are here. Oh I'll add that anecdote to my growing 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: grimoire of a vomit related I thought you were going 22 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: to say, you're adding it to the list of things 23 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: that you tell your therapist about work. But you know, 24 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 1: actually a lot of crossover between my grimoire and things 25 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: I tell my therapist, you know, using vomit magic, one 26 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: time I was able to turn a Ukrainian couple's wedding 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: dinner into a bunch of vomit on a Ukrainian couple. 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: What what an amazing feet of alchemy that that that 29 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: transmutation is just simply mind blowing. I use it as 30 00:01:54,360 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: a spell to be slightly less drunk. See, limitless power 31 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: is available when you embrace the sacred truths of a midamancy. Um, 32 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: good times actually would be a pretty fun class to 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: make in like a in like a Pathfinder type setting. Um, 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: you could do a lot of fun with this. You'd 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 1: just be the human fly and that's like how you 36 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: attack and devour. That that's kind of based actually, like yeah, 37 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: digesting your opponents as you hit them with a sword 38 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, very cool is listening to this podcast 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: to hear about You know what else is cool? The Illuminati. 40 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: The Illuminati was mid but the guy that we're going 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: to start our episode today talking about Robert Anton Wilson 42 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: was pretty dope. Now we're talking mostly about Kerry Thornley 43 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: in this series for good reason. Number One, I think 44 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: he and Greg Hill were the I mean, they certainly 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: were the initial primary drivers behind Discordianism. M Carrie is also, 46 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: as we'll get to, the guy who kind of makes 47 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: the most sense to cover in detailment behind the bastards. 48 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: But my entry into like being interested in in the 49 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: not just like conspiracy culture in America, particularly as it 50 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: existed in the eighties and nineties, but into the Discordians, 51 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: into all of this stuff was through the work of 52 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: a guy named Robert Anton Wilson and Margaret are you 53 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: are you that familiar with Bob Wilson stuff? Okay, so 54 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: here's where I lose all of my credit. I am 55 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: very aware of the Illuminatus trilogy, and I have not 56 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: read it. Yeah, we'll be talking about the Illuminatus Trilogy 57 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: a little later. Essays quite relevant. Yeah, he's written a 58 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: lot of essays. He's if you really want a sense 59 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: for the guy, he made a documentary right before he 60 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: died called Maybe Logic that is available for free on 61 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: YouTube and whatever. It's the first thing I watched the 62 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: first time I ever took hallucinogens. So he had a 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: big impact on me. And he's a legitimately a really 64 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: interesting guy kind of He comes out of Flat Brooklyn 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: and he grew up as a little kid and what 66 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: he called like a New York's Irish Catholic ghetto. Um, 67 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: he did not have a lot of our so he 68 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: spent He's yeah. Garrettson Beach is the actual neighborhood that 69 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: he grew up in, which is kind of like out 70 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, so there's not a lot 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: of money. He is abused pretty profoundly by the nuns 72 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: who run his school. As a kid, he is like 73 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: beaten and mentally like tormented by these these nuns. And 74 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: he also has two bouts of polio as a little 75 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: kid that he survives. He has. This guy, of all 76 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: the people were talking about, Bob Wilson is the most 77 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: mentally healthy and also has like the roughest life. He 78 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: has a very hard life. Um, and uh, yeah, it's interesting. 79 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: One of the things that is kind of a key 80 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: moment in this guy's life is that the thing that 81 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: saves his life from polio is a treatment called the 82 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: Sister Kenney method, which is like alternative medicine today and 83 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: was kind of at the time in the thirties considered 84 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: like quackery. Um. And I'm not competent to like weigh 85 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: in on this, but he credits the Sister Kenny method 86 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: with saving him from his polio and the fact that 87 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: like this thing that people called quack medicine is what 88 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: saved him as a child is going to have a 89 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: really big influence on just sort of the the degree 90 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: of weight that he gives authority. I did not know that, 91 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: but that makes so much sense for the rest of 92 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: his life. Is so much about like how much value 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: we put into what we believe, and how much what 94 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: we believe kind of creates the reality around us. And 95 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: that is such an interesting things like I'm sure, I'm 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: sure Bob Wilson that later on is like talking about 97 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: like the placebo effect and all that kind of stuff 98 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: as as that comes up like in like chaos magic 99 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: a lot um and and he was a member of 100 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: the biggest chaos magic order. But that's just that's such 101 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: an interesting story. And I was unaware that he dealt 102 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: with polio that it was it was kind of quote 103 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: using this like a crank method. What's the methods I'm 104 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: imagining you go into this like convent and sister Kearny, 105 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: Kearny whatever. Kenny. Yeah, Kenny just hits you with a cane. Yeah, 106 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's basically like a bunch of 107 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: hot compresses and like kind of passive movement, some of 108 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: which seems like it's it's sort of similar to like 109 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: massages um to reduce like some of the spasms that 110 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: are caused by polio um and yeah, it's uh, it's 111 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: it's interesting. Again, I'm not like a uh like an 112 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: expert on any of this, but it does seem She's 113 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: pretty well regarded within like physical therapy and consider to 114 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: be something of a pioneer in the field. So I 115 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: think it's one of those situations where he receives this 116 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: treatment that people call bullshit as a kid and it 117 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: helps him, and later on she's kind of to at 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: least some extent vindicated um and yeah, so this is 119 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: a big impact on Bob. The other than that has 120 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: a big impact on Bob is that just like three 121 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: years after he or a couple of years after his 122 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: like while he's sort of in the middle of this 123 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: polio shit, the War of the Worlds comes on the 124 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: radio and so Orson Wells is a huge influence on 125 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: this guy. As a young adult, he starts working at Playboy, 126 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: and he hooks up and gets married to a woman 127 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: named Arlen, and they are both in addition to being 128 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: because we're talking about these guys kind of in their 129 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: like intellectual weirdo prankster thing, he and Arlen are both 130 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: also very committed physical activists. They are both involved with 131 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: the Black Panthers. So these are not again, these are 132 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: not just people who like talk about shit like they're 133 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: taking on real risk. And in fact, at one point 134 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: while he's at Playboy, one of the editors there, an 135 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: executive comes up to him and says that, like tells 136 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: him his name has been added to the Chicago PDS 137 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: Red Squad or sorry, they're in Chicago, not LA and 138 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: which is like a list of radicals that the authorities 139 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: had under surveillance, and the Red Squad existed, we don't 140 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: actually know if Bob was on it or not. And 141 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: basically this guy tells Bob like, it's because they think 142 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: you're a gun runner for the Black Panthers, and Bob 143 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: is like, well, no, we're just part of the free 144 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: breakfast program. Especially right now, there's a non zero chance 145 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: Bob Wilson ran guns. That's not an impossibility. I'm not 146 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: gonna say that's one hundred percent, no full support. Yeah, 147 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: and he's he also again for kind of to talk 148 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: about like how rough this guy's life is. He has 149 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: several kids with Arlen. His youngest daughter, when she is fifteen, 150 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: is beaten to death in a robbery gone back, and 151 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: she becomes the first person, one of the very first 152 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: people in the world and the first person from at 153 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: least in the Bay Area to have her brain put 154 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: in a in cryogenic whatever stasis. That's the thing Bob 155 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: Wilson is into very early on. That is normally I 156 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: have very little sympathy as a general rule for the 157 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: life extension people, but I obviously can't blame a grieving 158 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: father for doing something like that, Like that's a perfectly 159 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: understandable series of actions, especially in the seventies. Yeah, that's 160 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: different than that. I want to be an immortal major. 161 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, Yeah exactly. Hey, hey, come on, So, while 162 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: Thornley and Hill kind of provided the initial impetus behind Discordianism. 163 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: Bob Wilson becomes one of the chief drivers, and he 164 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: probably is the most influential of them because he is 165 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: he is still to this day probably like one of 166 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: the number one voices out of the psychedelic movement and 167 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: the counterculture movement in the late sixties and seventies. Bob 168 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: Wilson wrote a bit about this in the late seventies 169 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: in a book he put out called Cosmic Trigger. It's 170 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: actually a series of books, and this is him kind 171 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: of describing the changes that occur in the American psyche 172 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: during the time that the Discordians are starting out their activism. 173 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: When John Fitzgerald Kennedy was blown apart by Oswald and 174 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: or persons unknown, something died in the American psyche. As 175 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: Jules Feffer, among others, has noticed, Kennedy was not a 176 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: universally beloved president, of course, nobody ever has been, not 177 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: even Washington. But he was young or youngish, handsome, cultured, brave. 178 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: Everybody knows the pt one on nine story and via Rile. 179 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: There was a commotion of primitive terrors loosed upon the 180 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: national psyche by the Daily Plaza Bullets, Camelot died, the 181 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: divine king had been sacrificed. We were caught suddenly in 182 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: the middle of a Fraser Freud reenactment of archetypal anthropological ritual. 183 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: The national psyche veered dizzily towards chapel perillus. Now, chapel 184 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: perillus is a term y'ell are familiar with. No, I 185 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: have no idea. It's a psychological term. I know, you 186 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: know the scars we've talked about this body. This is 187 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: a core part of my personal psychology. Yes. In researching 188 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: occult conspiracies, one eventually faces a crossroad of mythic proportions 189 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: called chapel perillus. In the trade, you come out the 190 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: other side either a stone paranoid or an agnostic. There 191 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: is no third way. I came out an agnostic, and 192 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: that's I still think is one of the more useful, 193 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: especially in the era of the Internet. UM, because a 194 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: big thing for and all of the early Discordians break 195 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: in different ways. They all react differently to chapel perilous. 196 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: And actually, one thing I'll quibbo with Wilson here is 197 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: I think there is a third way to react to this, 198 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that later. Um. But I think 199 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: Wilson's attitude is going to be because he is he 200 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: is a pan agnostic. Pan Agnosticism is kind of like 201 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: the ideology that guides him the rest of his life 202 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: in increasing ways. Um. And that's kind of if you 203 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: listen to like best practices from any of these like 204 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: people who work for traditional journalist outfits in disinfo, Like 205 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: they don't phrase it in as artful or attractive a 206 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: way as Bob Wilson says. But that's what everybody's trying 207 00:11:54,120 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: to urge people towards, right, not taking anything as gospel 208 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,599 Speaker 1: or perfect truth, not getting it's not allowing one of 209 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: the things Wilson would talk about as the concept of 210 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: a reality tunnel. Right. And so when you start to 211 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: believe things about the world that kind of that changes 212 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: how you perceive the world. It changes effectively the world 213 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: that you live in. And you're going to like continue 214 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: to make more choices that help you bore deeper into 215 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: that reality tunnel which fears you away from everybody else. Right, 216 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: We've got with qan On is a huge chunk of 217 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: people who have bored a reality tunnel so deep outside 218 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: of kind of the consensus reality that a lot of 219 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: most of the other people live in that they can't 220 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: be reached. In a lot of cases, this is what 221 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: happens in those like somebody will like murder their family 222 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: or whatever, or set off a bomb because they've they've 223 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: fallen so deep down this tunnel. And one of the 224 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: things Wilson is he doesn't want people to close their minds, 225 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: but he doesn't want anyone to get like to bury 226 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: themselves too deep in a tunnel that leads them, you know, 227 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,599 Speaker 1: that they can't get out from right Like that was 228 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: kind of the benefit of pan agnosticism. I mean, I 229 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: think another release instinct way is thinking about it is 230 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: it's the same name as his documentary maybe logic, as 231 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 1: in like maybe this thing is the thing, like a 232 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: big He has these speeches where he's tried he tries 233 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: to explain why we should remove the word is from 234 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: the English vocabulary because we say this thing is this thing. 235 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: You are now collapsing reality down into this succinct statement 236 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: that is probably going to cause problems when you create 237 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: that like um, when when you create that sense of 238 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: equalness um. So think of everything as like maybe this 239 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: is the thing, or maybe this is the thing like 240 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: it try to if you are a few times there. Yeah, 241 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: I mean you like using the word because because of 242 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: like linguistics, but thinking thinking of the world in that 243 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: maybe framework, yeah, is just a it's a safer way 244 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: to approach a lot of these things that try to 245 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: like mess with your psyche. Okay, it makes for worse writing. 246 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: Metaphors or general can seen as stronger than similes. So true, 247 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: that's true, And Bob Wilson will be at war most 248 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: of his life with the fact that he recognizes playing 249 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: with this stuff can be dangerous and also it's very 250 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: fun to do. But as a young man writing for Playboy, 251 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: he is not He's not quite as mature as he 252 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: will later be. And so, starting from the position of 253 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: these beliefs in kind of the value of pan agnosticism, 254 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: he decides that his goal should be to bring as 255 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: many people as possible to chapel perilous right. That is, 256 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: in Wilson's eyes, the goal of Operation mind Fuck is 257 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: to put stuff out here that causes as many people 258 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: as possible to hit this decision point where they either 259 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: become a stone paranoid or they kind of back away 260 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: and gain this ability to look at things from a 261 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: more objective standpoint, and a big part of like the 262 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: basic goal here is in order to stop people from 263 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: kind of going too far in these particularly the John 264 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: Birch directions. He wants to create art that causes people 265 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: to confront the fact that reality is not fixed and 266 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: emerge from that experience questioning their old assumptions. You know, 267 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: That's what Wilson sees as the actual like moral good 268 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: behind Operation mind fuck. So Wilson and his editor fellow 269 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: editors Shay, they start sitting down with Thornley and the 270 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: other Discordians, and it's from these conversations that they actually 271 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: come up with a name for Operation Mindful, because this 272 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: is just something they're doing for a couple of years, right, 273 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: They're sending off these letters, they're putting out these different 274 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories in different magazines, but they haven't really named 275 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: it yet. And I'm I'm gonna read a quote from 276 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: The New Yorker about how that goes down through every 277 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: means available. Wilson explained in a memo laying out the plan, 278 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: the mind Fuckers intended to attribute all national calamities, assassinations, 279 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: or conspiracies to the Illuminati and other hidden hands. So 280 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: they planted stories about the Illuminati and the underground press. 281 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: They slipped mysterious classified ads into the libertarian journal Innovator 282 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: and the new left newspaper Roger Spark. They cooked up 283 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: a letter about the Illuminati that Wilson then ran in 284 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: the Playboy Advisor. When a New Orleans jury refused to 285 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: convict one of the men who the conspiracy hunting District 286 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: Attorney Jim Garrison blamed for the JFK killing, Garrison's booster 287 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: Art Kunkin of the Los Angeles Free Press got a 288 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: note revealing that the jurors were all Illuminati initiates. The 289 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: telltale sign none of them had a left nipple. What 290 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: if there really is an Illuminati, Wilson asked Thornley one 291 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: pot fogged night in nineteen sixty eight. Maybe they'll find 292 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: out about us and be pissed. I doubt if there is, 293 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: Thornley answered, And if they're, by some chances, they'd probably 294 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: be very happy to have wild ass fools like us 295 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: covering up for them by spreading bizarre theories. I really 296 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: love this idea that probably at some point they like 297 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: checked someone for it and then they're like, no, no, 298 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: it's not a left nipple and a right nipple. It's 299 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: two right nipples, just one of thems on the other side. Yeah, yeah, 300 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: they doubled the right nipples. So obviously none of what 301 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: they're doing helps this cloud of suspicion that's fallen down 302 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: on Carrie that he's deeply involved in the Kennedy assassination. 303 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: And by this point JFK conspiracy theorists have become aware 304 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: of the Discordians and thornley Is involvement and have decided 305 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: the Discordians are a CIA front, which, in fairness is 306 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: something to the Discordians claimed too. So this doesn't nowhere. 307 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: Um oh boy, So I'm not gonna fed jacket myself, 308 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, I mean they do that immediately. Yeah. Um. 309 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 1: So Thornley becomes the constant victim of stalking by groups 310 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: of men in suits, and it's like he is legitimately 311 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: under investigation by the government. Some of these guys are 312 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: probably FEDS, some of them are probably conspiracy theorists also 313 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: carry as a paranoid schizophrenic who's taking LSD and marijuana 314 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: nearly every single day. So a lot's going on win 315 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: his head here, right, But like part of what's going 316 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: to make this so much more damaging to him is that, 317 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: like some of the stalking is real, which makes the 318 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: stuff that's not real a lot harder for him him 319 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: to doubt. He also, because you know this is Garrison, 320 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: you may not know this. People's phone numbers used to 321 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: just be like listed in a book that you can 322 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: pick up. So folks like who are into the conspiracy 323 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: get phone books for wherever he's living, and they start 324 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: like calling him, and some of them will leave like 325 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: cryptic messages, and these are some of these are probably 326 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: discordiants fucking with Carrie right where they're like continuing the 327 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: conspiracy by pretending to be a part of it to 328 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: mess with his head. Some of them are just dead air. 329 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: You know, they may just be people actually stalking him. 330 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's it's impossible to say entirely what's happening. 331 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: But as we turn over to the seventies, Carrie increasingly 332 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: finds himself acting as a stone paranoid. Now, mental illness 333 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,959 Speaker 1: does run in his family. His younger brother Dick suffered 334 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: from schizophrenic auditory hallucinations, and in this period Carrie increasingly 335 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: suffers from them as well. He is eventually diagnosed as 336 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: a paranoid schizophrenic. This is not like podcast Diagnosis Hour 337 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: with Robert Evans. Here Carrie Thornley was diagnosed and he 338 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: also starts escalating his drug use, which this is a 339 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: this is a seed during that do you know God 340 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: in the seventies, when is he born? Um, there's like, 341 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: what decade is he? I think like forties, He's probably 342 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: he's starting his thirties right now, if I'm not mistaken, Yeah, 343 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: it's like thirties, forties. I'm under the impression that's like 344 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: one of the time early thirties is like one of 345 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: the times that late twenties, early thirties is when people 346 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: often have schizophrenic breaks. And it can be I had 347 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: a I've had. This happened to a couple of friends 348 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: of mine. I used to live with a young woman 349 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: who was in her mid twenties, had just finished college. 350 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: Was like going through whatever program you go to to 351 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: become like a park ranger and then just kind of 352 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: one day loses it, you know, and yeah, I'm not 353 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: gonna give like the tails, but like it was, it's 354 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: it's it can come on very suddenly. And we know 355 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: one thing we do know is that both LSD and 356 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: marijuana can trigger schizophrenic episodes the martial too, But I'm 357 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: not sure. I'm I'm I think basically any seriously mind 358 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: altering drug can have the effective because I've heard that, 359 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: like cocaine can do it too. Like it's and it's 360 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: not like it's creating this in you. It's these are 361 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: people who at some point would have started to experience 362 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: these symptoms, but it can bring it on earlier. It 363 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: can make it, you know, a lot worse. It kind 364 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: of it kind of like knocks over the first domino. Yeah, 365 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: but the domino would have probably fallen over eventually anyway. Yes, 366 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: and with car right out to my schizophrenic friends who 367 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: are still awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean obviously this 368 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: is just like a thing he would have had to 369 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: deal with either way. Totally. I don't think anyway. I 370 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: just want to make sure everyone and I knows that 371 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: it's just a yeah, yeah, you know, it's just a thing, 372 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: and this is a thing he would have had to 373 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: deal with either way. I will say the fact that 374 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: he is basically never not tripping on acid or smoking 375 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: pot does not help him manage this. Yeah, and his 376 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: friends will note that, like sometimes he'll come in and 377 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: he'll be like fairly like calm and normal, and once 378 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: he hits a joint, he won't be able to stop 379 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: talking about this conspiracy to kill Kennedy and how he's 380 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: wrapped up in it and the different things that he 381 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: started to believe about it. And he's kind of so 382 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: aggressive about it that people, a lot of people can't 383 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: spend time around him anymore because it's just like this 384 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: this thing that when he gets into it, he's incapable 385 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: of like even seeing the people around him. And Carrie 386 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: goes further and further, kind of off the deep end. 387 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: Over the next couple of years, through the seventies, he 388 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: convinces himself that Oswald was really set up. He starts 389 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: to believe that he may have in fact been Oswald's 390 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: body double or otherwise involved in the conspiracy to kill 391 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: JFK and had simply forgotten about it due to CIA 392 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: mind control radios implanted in his head. And one of 393 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: the problems is that, like he has a lot of 394 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: friends like Greg Robert Danton Wilson, the CIA is cutting 395 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: off your microphone, Robbers, Oh no, this isn't the first 396 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: time that you've mentioned that. And then your microphone starts 397 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: cutting out. Yeah, yeah, it's it's that's how the CIA works. 398 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: But you know how else the CIA works by planting 399 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: people with that let's do so they trip and they 400 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: don't know it. That's one way it works. It works 401 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: so that they're more susceptible to advertising. Yes, yeah, yeah, well, 402 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: I mean Garrison in an earlier time, with less sophisticated ads, 403 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: they had to use LSD. Now though, the quality ads 404 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: on this podcast are much more mind altering than any 405 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: fucking chemical that's some Danish man cooked up in a lab. Ah, 406 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: we're back. I hope you all enjoyed the twelve hours 407 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: of hallucinations that come with every behind the Bastard's ad break. Um, 408 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: it's really ruined a lot of people's lives, but it 409 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: helps us. You know, it'stantially lucrative for us. I mean 410 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: exactly helps promote good got nothing, okay, yeah, it helps 411 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: promote good things. What this podcast is about, good thing, 412 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: the Good Things cast. So what a boring show that 413 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: would be him? A right here. Yeah, here's the problem 414 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: Carrie is. I mean, he's losing his mind. He is 415 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: increasingly unable to tell what's real. He's increasingly convinced that 416 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: that the government tried to have or someone tried to 417 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: make him murder the president, that he may have helped 418 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: murder the president, that he's being stalked by government agents. 419 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: And periodically he will go to his friends Robert Anton Wilson, 420 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: Bob Shay, Greg Hill, and he'll try to talk to 421 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: him about this, and they don't really notice that he's 422 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: serious because the language they all communicate with is like 423 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: making up conspiracy theories. So it takes them a while 424 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: to realize, like, oh, no, Carrie's actually in some distress here, 425 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: Like there's a there's a problem with our friend. What 426 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: are the odds that he actually was involved in the 427 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: assassination of JFK. He was living basically next to this 428 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: guy who he claimed not to have ever seen again. 429 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: I mean, for one thing, that he wasn't in Dallas 430 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: when it happened, But for the other thing, like Carrie 431 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: Thornley was actually incapable of like hiding anything every um. 432 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: I like, when he comes to believe that he killed Kennedy, 433 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: he tells everybody that he killed Kennedy. And so when 434 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: he doesn't believe, like, I just don't think he would 435 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: ever have been capable of being part of a plot. Um, 436 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: he's not very good at Like, yeah, he's, he's he's. Well, 437 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: we'll talk about it, like, Okay, there's a We're gonna 438 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: watch a little video with him later. Um, but yeah, 439 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: it's it's it's interesting. You can believe whatever you want about. Actually, 440 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: the carries carries complicity in the Kennedy assassination. Literally, I've 441 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: never cared about most conspiracy shit. It has never occurred 442 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: to me to care who shot JFK. I do not care. M. 443 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: I mean, wow, uh, Margaret, this is how the reality 444 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: the reality tunnel st arts. You're you are already on 445 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: the path. You you you already asked the question took 446 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: a shovel load of dirt out of a tunnel? M cool. 447 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: I hope there's some I hope. It's like D and 448 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: D when you get into the tunnels. Sometimes sometimes with 449 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: gold and manliquer carcano rifles. Yeah, so that's how I 450 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: play D and D. All of Carrie's kind of mental Um, 451 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: I don't collapse isn't quite the right word. But the 452 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: this this process of him sort of falling to his 453 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: mental demons occurs over the course of about a decade 454 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: and while this is going on, he remains pretty intensely 455 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: involved in radical politics. Um, he has another ideological shift 456 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: from the kind of individualist anarchism that had led him 457 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: to Discordianism towards a belief system that is, I mean, 458 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: this is not like a huge movement like this is 459 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: not like a huge pivot from individualist anarchism. But he 460 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: comes to like describe his political ideology as supporting second 461 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: drugs and treason. He briefly considers, yeah, that's fine. He 462 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: briefly considers slipping LSD into the water supply of a city. 463 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: But eventually his acid trips convince him to drop out 464 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: of society and integrate himself into what he calls a 465 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: sexually swinging psychedelic tribe. And this tribe is one of 466 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties mini acid cults called the Carrista. Carrie 467 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: takes over their newspaper and he writes several influential articles. 468 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: And these guys are like, again, this is like an 469 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: acid sex cult. It's also pretty like their Their publication 470 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: is reasonably prominent within the radical community at this time. 471 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: So Carrie's articles wind up having Margaret. You might be 472 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: surprised by the influence this has actually, but he writes 473 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: an article that includes this line, Carrista is a religion 474 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: and the mood of Carrista is one of holiness. Do not, however, 475 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: look for profusion of rituals, Dogma's doctrines and scriptures. Carrista 476 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: is too sacred for that. It is more akin to 477 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: the religions of the East and also the so called 478 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: pagan religions of the pre Christian West. So what's interesting 479 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: Like that may not seem like much, but what's interesting 480 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: is that that is and in this article includes basically 481 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: the first, probably the first recorded use of people using 482 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: the word pagan to refer to both a past practice 483 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: and ongoing modern religious practices that had not interesting happened 484 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: until yeah, and this is I'm not the one making 485 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: this claim. This is a claim made by Margot Adler, 486 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: who is a Wiccaned priestess and an NPR correspondent. In 487 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: her book Drawing Down the Moon, she claims that Carry's 488 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: writings helped spark the actual beginning of the neo pagan movement, 489 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: and she is the one who credits him as the 490 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: first person to use the word pagan to describe both 491 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: past and present religions. This guy is everywhere. Yeah, he's 492 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: really influential. It's it's wild because he's so president or too. 493 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how many and also started. I don't know. 494 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: It's just impressive. You know what that is my head cannon. 495 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm blaming the Kennedy assassin or crediting it to him. Um, 496 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: I think they secreted him away. Actually, I actually don't 497 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: know the conspiracy theories. Friend JFK. Oh, so you're you're 498 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: you're a Bubba Ho Tep believer? Oh god, no, I 499 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: don't think so, I've changed. You should watch everyone should 500 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: watch the movie Bubba Ho Tep by Don Coscarelli. The 501 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: premise of the film, starring Bruce Campbell, is that Elvis 502 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: like gives his life to an Elvis impersonatorum and then 503 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: winds up in an old folks home as an old man, 504 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: and his best friend is a black man who claims 505 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: to be JFK who the CIA like changed his skin 506 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: in order to like hide him to fake his death, 507 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: and they have they have to fight a mummy. It's 508 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: an incredible film. Okay, I've got I'm back to believing it. YEA, 509 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: all right, Bubba Ho Tep excellent piece of art. Yea, 510 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: um so Carrie Again, It's interesting. He is a very 511 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: functional person in a lot of ways. He's deeply influential. 512 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: He writes it huge amount. It's good writing as a 513 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: general rule, but he's also in like he's also an 514 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: unmedicated and increasingly kind of falling into these increasingly complex 515 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: conspiratorial holes, and he'll just drop off the map for 516 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: periods of time. He spends a decent chunk, particularly in 517 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: the late seventies early eighties, kind of living as a transient, 518 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: but but never when he doesn't want to write. One 519 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: of the things his friends will say is that like, 520 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: no matter how kind of far out he got, when 521 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: he wanted to, he would find ways to make money 522 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: and keep a roof over his head. So he was 523 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: he always had this kind of degree of control over 524 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: his life. It's more like he couldn't control his relationships 525 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: with other people because he starts to wrap them into 526 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: these conspiracies that he's spending all of his time thinking about. Now. 527 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: Probably I think the first, as far as I've read, 528 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: the first of his friends to realize something as deeply 529 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: wrong is Robert Anton Wilson. And Wilson, you know, would 530 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: kind of very politely when Carrie would start getting wrapped 531 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: up in these claims, would be like, well that I 532 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: don't really you know. I I understand what you're saying, 533 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: and I understand that you believe that, but I want 534 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: you to consider that maybe that's not as true as 535 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: you think it is, and like, maybe there's alternative explanations 536 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: for why you think somebody's following you or this or that. 537 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: Carrie decides that this means that Bob is his CIA 538 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: handler and he's trying to trick him, to manipulate him 539 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: into Yeah, this is like a not an uncommon story, unfortunately, 540 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: and variants of this kind of happened with some of 541 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: his other friends now. So kind of the side effect 542 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: of this is that, especially kind of at the end 543 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: of the seventies, Carrie is increasingly like isolated. A lot 544 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: of his old friends he doesn't talk to anymore. Greg 545 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: Hill kind of gets very depressed at this point in time. 546 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: His wife divorces him and he starts drinking more and more, 547 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: and so he kind of reduces his contact and so 548 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: Carrie does not have a lot of the moderating influences 549 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: that he'd had earlier in his life and his personal 550 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: beliefs continue to evolve, and again he's kind of gotten 551 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: really into free love in this period that has sort 552 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: of become the center of his political identity. And the 553 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: next set of beliefs that he that he takes on, 554 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: because he is a guy who periodically will just take 555 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: on beliefs very strongly, is that the only way to 556 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: create a utopia is to build a world free of 557 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: sexual hang ups. Now, this is where things take a 558 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: really dark turn. Carrie believes all people are sexual beings. 559 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: Sex is fundamentally a good. It's something that should form 560 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: the center of human relationships. And if all people are 561 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: sexual beings and all children are people, then sex with 562 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: children can't be all that bad. So one of them 563 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: real by Heater Lamborne Wilson Energy. Yeah. I was wondering 564 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: if they were communicating at this time, because that is 565 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: very very similar types of logic, and they were both 566 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: probably very very active, and like the early pagan community. 567 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: I haven't seen that they were communicating directly, but they 568 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: were certainly writing in some of the same magazines and 569 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: in some of the same places. And the thing Carrie 570 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: convinces himself is basically he's not committed to sexual liberation 571 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: if he does not try to have sex with a child. 572 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: So this did not come out until two thousand and three, 573 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: more than two thousand and two, something like that. The 574 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: book came out two thousand and three when Grace when 575 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: Adam go Rightley's who's written the book The Pranks during 576 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: the Conspiracy, which is the best book about Carrie, he 577 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: is looking into Carrie's life. He's talking to of all 578 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: of his old friends, and one of his old friends 579 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: she is a Carrie would claim that they dated. She 580 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: claims they just worked friends who had sex one time 581 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: and then she wanted some space. Yeah, this is another 582 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: thing with Carrie. But this woman, Grace Kaplinger, she sends 583 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: Adam a letter and this is what it says. There 584 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: was an incident in Atlanta when Carrie and Kara and 585 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: Craig were living across the street from me. Kara's his 586 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: his wife, living across the street from me and my family. 587 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: He took my daughter Marian, when she was around seven 588 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: or eight, into a room at the home of a 589 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: family close friends of mine who lived around the corner. 590 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: He closed the door and began trying to fondle Marian. 591 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: This was stopped by my friend Jane coming to the 592 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: door and demanding that it be opened. She told me 593 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: about it, as did Marian at the time, and I 594 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: know that I did not deal with this properly. Part 595 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: of me was simply unable to understand the gravity, even 596 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: the total reality of it. But it did happen, fuck, 597 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: and I have no reason to disbelieve that it's one 598 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: of those I want to be really clear here because 599 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: we've talked in other episodes, like when we talked about 600 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: them John Hinckley Junior, about you know, mental illness and 601 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: when it does and does not, like have an impact 602 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: on someone's complicity in a crime. And I don't think 603 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: that has any impact on what Carry has done here. 604 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: I think his decision to try to molest this girl 605 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: is completely consistent with decade of how this guy functions. 606 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is that when Carrie 607 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: comes across deep poverty overseas in Southeast Asia and reads Marx, 608 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: he becomes a committed Marxist. When he reads Atlas Shrugged 609 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: and falls in love with objectivism, he describes himself as 610 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: like a capitalist insurgent terrorist. When he finds anarchism, he 611 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: devotes himself to causing as much chaos as possible. He 612 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: is the kind of person who, when he finds something 613 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: attractive in an ideology, jumps into it with both feet 614 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: and is immediately ready to give everything for it. And 615 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: I think, actually, I there's a degree to which I 616 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: have more condemnation and find him more unsettling than someone 617 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: who is a pedophile in the sense of someone who 618 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: is attracted to children and seeks them out, Because we 619 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: have no evidence this ever happened again, And I don't 620 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: think this is the result of attraction. I think this 621 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: is the result of Carrie believing he is not living 622 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: his ideology if he doesn't try to do this. Yeah, Like, 623 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: and I think a person who can do that is 624 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: so much scarier than almost any other kind of person 625 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, it's fucked up now. And there's 626 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: so much there about the history of its terrible the 627 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: history of pedophilia that runs through so many different subcultures 628 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: and ideologies on all sides of the spectrum. And it's 629 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: like very rarely tackled head on because it's usually talked 630 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: about in very bad faith, you know, like everyone calling 631 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 1: trans people groomers or whatever, right, or people don't want 632 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 1: to talk about it because it's not a fucking nice 633 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: thing to talk about, and it's it's complicated, but we 634 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: people need to know that. Yeah, that's just like what 635 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: echo chambers can make you believe is reasonable, you know. 636 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: I guess the kind of thing that they probably would 637 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: call reality tunnels, right like, yeah, like when you're like 638 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: you have these like self reinforcing beliefs and you get 639 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: a small group of people who are like yeah, and 640 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: then this thing and then this thing, you know, and 641 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: it is a thing that like people have a problem 642 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: with and it allows you to come up with horrific 643 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: conclusions such as this one. And this is why Robert 644 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: Anton Wilson was such an advocate of pan agnosticism, right, 645 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: it's part he's he's watching Carrie. I don't think he's 646 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: aware of this one. It happens, but he does write 647 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: the forward to the biography that this is in. It 648 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: doesn't become aware of it at some point because that 649 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: was only published a few years before Wilson died. It 650 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: was right rat because I think he died in two 651 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: thousand three or four. Yeah, yeah, but um, so yeah, 652 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: this is um, I mean, that's unsettling and it's interesting 653 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: just to kind of make that point further go Rightly 654 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: also talks to one of Thorny's longtime friends, or Thornley's 655 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: longtime friends, Lewis Lois Lacy, to try and understand why 656 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: this happened, and Lacy's explanation is that Carrie really started 657 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: to like his behavior started to change for the worse, 658 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: for the toxic, for the abusive, when he dropped the 659 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: personal mantra that he had kept with him most of 660 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: his life, which was just the word no. And I'm 661 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: going to read a quote from the book here because 662 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: I think this is interesting. As Louise explained, Carrie was 663 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 1: fiercely anti authoritarian, and prior to his bouts of paranoia, 664 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: he had always stood up to whatever monolithic force stood 665 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: in his way, continually saying no, whether it was to 666 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: the government, Jim Garrison, or anyone else. This was Carrie's 667 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: way of dealing with people who tried to tell him 668 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: what to do. And this was the simple wisdom he'd 669 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: imparted to Lois many years before. Just learned to say no, 670 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,359 Speaker 1: and people won't know how to react or what to do, 671 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: and in most cases would leave you the fuck alone. 672 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: At some point, Carrie apparently quit saying no, and in essence, 673 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: stopped evolving, while his friends, who in many instances had 674 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: followed Carrie over the years, now began eclipsing him. As 675 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: they continued growing, exploring, and entertaining new ideas and forms 676 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: of expression, Carrie Lois contends, became locked in this delusory 677 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: world of conspiracies, which impeded his evolution. One time, Carry 678 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: explained his struggles to her in the following manner, It's 679 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: hard to be an anarchist when your head is talking 680 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: to you. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's a that's the complicated 681 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: thing to parse. It is a complicated thing because in 682 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, like the path that he got 683 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: set down, he did lay he did lay out the 684 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: own stones for the path, like he was encouraging himself 685 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: along so much of this development and then he just 686 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: got lost along the way. Um. But but also he 687 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 1: was also just like he was always capable of doing 688 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: this right because he did it as a person. So 689 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: it's it's it's one of those things where had it. 690 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: It's the same thing with the same thing with like 691 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: the Kanye West stuff, same thing with whenever we talk 692 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: about like what degree does does like your mental health 693 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: or or you know, whatever diagnosis you might have like 694 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: contribute to the actions that you take. Yeah, and I 695 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: think it's a matter of whether or not you understand 696 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: the like the reality of what you're doing in a 697 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: very like basic way. Like, for example, if Carrie had 698 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: become convinced that a random person was stalking him and 699 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: just shot that person, believing he was defending himself from 700 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: the CIA, You're not morally like culpable to that, right, Like, 701 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: that's fundamentally a decision you make because you're you believe 702 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: you're in danger. Yeah, and like I can't morally blame 703 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: somebody for that, but yeah, like the decision to rape 704 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: a child is based on like reinforcing your own personal 705 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: sense of ideology. Yeah's just the weirdly fucked up thing 706 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: to do that, and that that matters more than, for example, 707 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: the consent of the child or you know, the like 708 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: the ability like obviously children cannot consent, but like the like, 709 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: it's the centering of his own need to be consistent 710 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: with this thing he's convinced himself as his politics. Yeah, 711 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: that is like that's a bad thing to do. Well, 712 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: this is depressing. You know what's not bad? Gold past, 713 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: buy some gold. Ah, we're back. We're just having a 714 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: good time, having a good time. Never want to stop 715 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: at all. So Karrie gets divorced. Um he kind of 716 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: loses his ability over time to function in mainstream society whatsoever. 717 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: He becomes something of a wandering bum, hitchhiking across the country, 718 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: crashing with friends or on the street. Those who'd known 719 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: him a long time learned that trying to help him 720 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: inevitably brought allegations that they too were part of the 721 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: CIA conspiracy. One of his brothers is his kind of 722 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: middle brother, not not. Dick later writes this, which I 723 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: think does a good enough job of kind of summarizing 724 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: how Carrie is treating people in this period. The last 725 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: time I saw Carrie was in the early nineteen eighties. 726 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: It was the last time our nuclear family was all 727 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: together at the same time in years, and it was Christmas. 728 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: After the Warren Commission testimony. Carrie gradually morphed from a fascinating, 729 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,760 Speaker 1: very charismatic Mary prankster beaten at kind of idiot, savant 730 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: intellectual giant into a full blown paranoid schizophrenic. That Christmas, 731 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: we got together at my mom and Dad's the Nazi 732 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: spy's house. Carrie was intent on proving to me that 733 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: he was being followed and watched, and that he had 734 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: thought mind control devices, got mind control devices planted in 735 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: his head. So he asked me to drive him to 736 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: a local bus stop to prove his point. To put 737 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: this in perspective, I had long hair. Carrie had long hair, 738 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: a full beard, and a bright orange sailor's hat on, 739 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: and was carrying a white purse. As we sat at 740 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: the bus stop in this very conservative palos fared as neighborhood, 741 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: Carrie began to point out how almost everyone who drove 742 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,720 Speaker 1: by was looking at us, so they were most likely 743 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: spying on him, and in fact, some had been following 744 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: him for days. That was such a shock to me 745 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: to realize what a fine line it is between being 746 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: an intellectual giant and a very smart, paranoid schizophrenic. I 747 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: never saw him again after that day. Oh that his 748 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,919 Speaker 1: whole story is so dark and tragic. Um. Yeah, it's 749 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: like but you can see, like all all this gets 750 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: like you know, there's there's the his stuff that he 751 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: was doing in school to prank his friends as like 752 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: a pregurs for all this, how he would put up 753 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: posters talking about killing the president as like this this 754 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: thing that in the end has such a negative impact 755 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: on your life, but is seemingly an inconsequential joke, and 756 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: then in the end it leads to this devastating train 757 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: of things that just kind of shatters your mental grasp 758 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: of reality. And it's yeah, I think one like what 759 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: Wilson would say as it's the result of saying yes 760 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: too many times. Right, it's the result of being too convinced. 761 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: And I think part of what and I think this 762 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: is part of where you need some kind of some 763 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: of his brothers um words here to help make sense 764 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: of it, because the fact that what he says, they're 765 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: at the end there the difference between the thin line 766 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: between being an intellectual giant, which Carrie objectively was, his 767 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: influence on the culture was massive, and a very smart, 768 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: paranoid schizophrenic. I think carries conception of his own intelligence 769 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: is a big part of why yeah, yeah, go so 770 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 1: badly for him. Right, he thought he was smart enough 771 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: that he was like he was like catching these people yum, 772 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: and its fucking with them. And I'm the one, like 773 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm the one who has like the control and the 774 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: agency here, right, and I think and I'm like, and 775 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, the maybe logic side of things, it's like, 776 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: you know, people looking at me at this bus stop, 777 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: that is proof that they're following me. It's it's it's 778 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 1: it's using that that that notion of like is and 779 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: as opposed to thinking like, oh, they're looking at you, 780 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: or maybe it's because you have long hair and you're 781 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: sitting to someone else's long hair with you just you know, 782 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: you just look like weird hippies, like like, we'll see 783 00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: him in a little bit. But I should note here 784 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: Carrie never didn't look like a wizard, like the whole 785 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: period from the Discorian point on. He's got like this 786 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: long beard and these he has wizard rest in wizard 787 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 1: face is how I would describe the way carry authorically looked. 788 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: He did eventually find some sort of rough equilibrium. He 789 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: wound up kind of making a place for himself in 790 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: Atlanta's little Five Points neighborhood. Now, at this point that 791 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: was the center of all things weird in the Deep South, 792 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: and it was ignored enough by authorities that it drew 793 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: in traveling punk kids who wanted nothing more than to 794 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: squat in old buildings and published weird shit for other 795 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,919 Speaker 1: grungy leftists. What Carrie Sarah are we in now? We're 796 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: talking the late seventies, in the eighties, all through the 797 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: Reagan years. Basically, this is kind of what he's doing. 798 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,240 Speaker 1: And he finds a sketchy living situation where he's basically 799 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: I think it's like a backhouse kind of thing that 800 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: it's not entirely legal. Over the course of the time 801 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,839 Speaker 1: he's there, he fills it with exact thirteen cats. Um. 802 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 1: And because because space in his house is so small, 803 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: he had to build what he called a cat condo 804 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: out of scrapwood and trash, creating a system of tunnels, ladders, 805 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,839 Speaker 1: and platforms on the walls for his cat. Like, yeah, 806 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 1: I've lived in punk houses where you have like the 807 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: resident wizard, where everyone's like twenty five, and then there's 808 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: just the like seventy year old anarchist who's like fucking 809 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: you know that's in this last period of his life. Yeah, um, 810 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: and his his cat condo. By the way, the health 811 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: department eventually makes him tart tap that man. I know, 812 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: let the man have his cat condown. You know, I 813 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: mostly feel sad for the fourteenth cat that just hangs 814 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: out out of side and is like, come on, you're 815 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: a crazy cat wizard. Let more space. Come on. So, 816 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 1: without the Internet, the L five P community, a Little 817 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: five Points community keeps in touch through a series of 818 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,959 Speaker 1: underground papers, and in the mid seventies, late seventies really 819 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: mostly Carrie has another one of his great ideas. So 820 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,839 Speaker 1: he starts by posting what he calls wall newspapers all 821 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: around Little five Points. These are one paged xerox rants, 822 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,959 Speaker 1: and he puts them up in strategic locations around town 823 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 1: around like the punk bars and stuff that people hang 824 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: out in. So folks like find these, they see them 825 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: in like bathroom walls and stuff, and they read them 826 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: and they talk about them to their friends who are 827 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: all hanging out in the same area. And gradually, like 828 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,800 Speaker 1: Carrie starts to become known around town for these wall 829 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: newspapers that he's posting up, and he starts publishing more 830 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: and more of these little xerox rants and like arguments 831 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: and like letters to the editor. People start passing them 832 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: out to their friends or leaving them out at bars. 833 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: This is the start of the Zene Revolution because one 834 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: of the things Carrie is doing while he's doing this 835 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: in Little Five Points. He's also part of the time 836 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: living the sort of transient existence where he's like hitchhiking 837 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: throughout the South, putting up these little like wall newspapers 838 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: and stuff and like spreading. So some times people will 839 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: like write notes and letters and stuff in Atlanta and 840 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: he'll like print them up, and then he'll travel down 841 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 1: to you know, Orlando, and he'll put them up in 842 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: places and stuff. And and this is like other people 843 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: start to see this and realize like, oh, this is 844 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: actually a really cool way to like communicate and share information. Um, 845 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,799 Speaker 1: and yeah, this is like kind of how the zine 846 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 1: revolution kicks off, and that really starts. In the nineteen eighties, 847 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:32,720 Speaker 1: Thornley publications included Colcha u Kulccha, which focused on art, sex, 848 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,680 Speaker 1: and religion and and this is my favorite one, The 849 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,720 Speaker 1: Decadent Worker, which was a gossip column of like different 850 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,319 Speaker 1: like like drama that in the leftist community. And Little 851 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:48,359 Speaker 1: five Points. Oh yeah, this is just like this like 852 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: Twitter getting circulated. Twitter, guys. So when I lived in 853 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,399 Speaker 1: the squad scene in the Netherlands and Amsterdam, um, there 854 00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,440 Speaker 1: was this zine that had been going on for like 855 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: ten or teen years maybe longer. That was just the 856 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,360 Speaker 1: gossip of who's fucking who in the squat scene in Amsterdam, 857 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,319 Speaker 1: and it was like terrifying. It was terrifying to me 858 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,800 Speaker 1: because I, like I didn't read Dutch and it was 859 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 1: one of the I don't know, but just the fact 860 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: that there's this zine that I guess distributed about like 861 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: who is new in town, Who's fucking who? It's fucking scary. Yeah, 862 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,920 Speaker 1: and it's it's one of I should note here just 863 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: because people will get angry online. Otherwise. This is not 864 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:29,719 Speaker 1: one of these This is one of those things where 865 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: like like, it's not like Carrie runs into a room 866 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: full of punks and anarchists and says, I have invented 867 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 1: the zine. This is This is actually a little bit 868 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: more like, uh, you know that situation. We're talking about 869 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: an episode one with like the creation of or the 870 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: discovery of calculus, right where he is doing this and 871 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,200 Speaker 1: a couple other people are doing similar things and it 872 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 1: all runs together. But he is since he's so influential 873 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: and so skilled at getting his view of things out 874 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: to people, he definitely has a massive He's one of 875 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: a handful of people who starts the Zine Revolution, and yeah, 876 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: he also lays out he also puts together a wall 877 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,359 Speaker 1: newspaper called the Cactus Flowery Gazette, where he lays out 878 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,799 Speaker 1: the basics of what's going to be his final ideology. 879 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 1: He calls it zin anarchism. Now here's what he wrote 880 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: about his contribution to the Zine Revolution. I like to 881 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: think that over two and a half years of such activity, 882 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,640 Speaker 1: it's raised the vibes in my immediate surroundings considerably beyond 883 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,720 Speaker 1: the satisfaction of a feuding a few of the lies 884 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: the intelligence community spreads to counter my claims to bring 885 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: light about light data about my belatedly discovered involvement in 886 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: the JFK murder and such related matters as the premeditated 887 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,359 Speaker 1: escalation of the Indochina War and German breeding experiments right 888 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,800 Speaker 1: here in the US. There is no other profit involved. 889 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: And that's really interesting, the fact that he's like my 890 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,319 Speaker 1: belatedly discovered involvement in the JFK murder because he's only 891 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: now realized that he had a hand in killing JFK. 892 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: He also posts advocate anarchist two of the presidents. Yeah, yeah, 893 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. Yeah, Actually, I'm not sure invatably market. 894 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: He may still have been an objectivist back then. Okay, yeah, 895 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,879 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Remember they can have that one, Yeah, 896 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: I can. He wanted JFK dead for Randy in reasons. 897 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 1: Oh it's very funny. Um yeah, so um we will. 898 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 1: We will continue to talk about Kerry Thornley and give 899 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,680 Speaker 1: sort of the last stages of his life in in 900 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 1: the final part of this epic series, and we will 901 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,400 Speaker 1: also talk about what happens after the original Discordians and 902 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: how their ideas get taken and changed and turned eventually 903 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: into the sundry fascist manipulation campaigns that have had such 904 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,799 Speaker 1: an influence on our last couple of presidential elections and 905 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,280 Speaker 1: last I don't know dozen ish public mass murders. Um. 906 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,279 Speaker 1: But before we do that, Margaret Garrison, Yes, you know what. 907 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,320 Speaker 1: It hasn't it's been implicated in any mass murders US 908 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: US as far as I know. We did. We did 909 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:17,160 Speaker 1: a background check on youth of you. Well, I drove 910 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: past the police department building and screamed, has Garrison committed 911 00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: any crimes? And no one, no one called me back. 912 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: That's good, that's good. And you also went and found 913 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 1: that Dutch zine and got someone to translate it from 914 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,320 Speaker 1: Dutch and found out that I had not done anything wrong. 915 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,880 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. That's all the Zene focuses on 916 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 1: these days is your lack of complicity in various crimes. Yeah, um, 917 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 1: I know. If you have any old copies of Kerry 918 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,360 Speaker 1: Thornley Wall newspapers from Little Five Points in the nineteen eighties, 919 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: hit us the fuck up, because I want to I 920 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,400 Speaker 1: want to see some of that shit. I want to 921 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: read kulcha um. Yeah, what do you guys got to plug? Well, 922 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 1: if if you want to try to find if you 923 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: have any of those weird zines from from Little five 924 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,879 Speaker 1: Points or the Walls or the Wall newspapers, can find 925 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,200 Speaker 1: me on Twitter and Instagram at Hungry Bowtie. I just 926 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 1: speaking of Atlanta. Just finished up a four part series 927 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,799 Speaker 1: on the toptop city movement in Atlanta, Georgia. The Week 928 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: of Action should be either ongoing or about to happen 929 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: by the time this episode airs, so yeah, excellent. I 930 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,440 Speaker 1: have a podcast. I have two podcasts. I have a 931 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,400 Speaker 1: podcast called Live Like the World is Dying that is 932 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 1: individual and community preparedness, and I have a podcast on 933 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,399 Speaker 1: this very network and it's called Cool People Who Did 934 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: Cool stuff And yeah, you can listen to it every 935 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,360 Speaker 1: Monday and Wednesday. And I have a book called Escape 936 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 1: from Insul Island. I have a bunch of books, but 937 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 1: the most recent one is called Escape from Insul Island 938 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,399 Speaker 1: and you can read it. It came out. You can 939 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: get it wherever you steal, but wherever you books buy it, 940 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: steal it. Steal you know, just go steal something everybody stidia. Yeah, 941 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,439 Speaker 1: steal the Principia discordia um from a bookstore that has 942 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:16,560 Speaker 1: the temerity to sell it um. And uh, I don't know, Sophy, 943 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,279 Speaker 1: what what kind of crimes are we allowed to advocate 944 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,400 Speaker 1: our listeners commit go go, go back in time and 945 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 1: shoot JFK, go do it? Chris, just bleep me talking 946 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:35,319 Speaker 1: right now? Yeah, wow, Sophie, I mean, yeah, I that much. 947 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: I think that much thermite would take out the structural supports. 948 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,359 Speaker 1: But I don't know if a controlled demolition like that 949 00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,279 Speaker 1: is going to lead to as fast a collapse as 950 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,200 Speaker 1: you expect. I think we'll have to I think we'll 951 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 1: have to check this by legal before we air this. 952 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,120 Speaker 1: Are this episode Well, well, well we'll get back to 953 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,839 Speaker 1: you all on that. But wow, Sophie surprisingly intricate player, 954 00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:58,719 Speaker 1: and if any of that was bleeped out, it was 955 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,080 Speaker 1: actually the CIA who bleeped it out. Yeah, we don't 956 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 1: do that. We'll just cut this whole section. But if 957 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: this section runs but part of it's bleeped out, it 958 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 1: means that the CIA has altered this episode as part 959 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 1: of an influence operation. And you can't trust anything that 960 00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,480 Speaker 1: we say in this because as good as the technology 961 00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: has gotten for deep fakes right now, there's no way 962 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,080 Speaker 1: to know if we actually said this, or this is 963 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,080 Speaker 1: something that our CIA handlers are putting out using our voices. 964 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,360 Speaker 1: We may not even be alive anymore. You have no 965 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,799 Speaker 1: way of telling I love that we haven't learned from 966 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,279 Speaker 1: the actual thing we're describing. We haven't learned from the 967 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:35,040 Speaker 1: history that we are in the process of describing. I 968 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,880 Speaker 1: was just gonna talk to do that thing where like 969 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 1: a TV program gets pulled live on it. It's just like, 970 00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,080 Speaker 1: I mean, look, Margaret, but the chief lesson of this 971 00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,120 Speaker 1: show is that it is impossible to learn things from history. 972 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,399 Speaker 1: Can we live that message every day? Yeah? All right? 973 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:57,239 Speaker 1: Scording by Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool 974 00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media at our website, 975 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,919 Speaker 1: coolszonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 976 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.