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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law.

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Speaker 2: Are plaintiff's leries involved in a kind of competition in Congress?

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Speaker 2: Force a judicial code on the justices?

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Speaker 1: Interviews with prominent attorneys in Bloomberg Legal experts.

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Speaker 2: My guest is former federal prosecutor Robert Mint. Joining me

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Speaker 2: is Bloomberg Law reporter Kyle Janner.

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Speaker 1: And analysis of important legal issues, cases and headlines.

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Speaker 2: Is it unusual a grand jury like this to suspect

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Speaker 2: people aren't telling the truth? One of the first times

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Speaker 2: the Justice Department has called for the breakup of a

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Speaker 2: major company.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Bloomberg Law on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Madison Mills

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Speaker 3: in for June Grasso. This week, we're starting on former

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Speaker 3: President Trump because he's set to appear in a Miami

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Speaker 3: court on Tuesday. This, of course, after becoming the first

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Speaker 3: president in history charged with committing federal crimes. Will unpack

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Speaker 3: the legal and political implications. Plus, it's merger Monday, so

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Speaker 3: we're going to talk about Nasdaq's historic acquisition. But starting

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Speaker 3: off our show, we are going to talk about the

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Speaker 3: former president who spoke publicly about the indictment for the

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Speaker 3: first time this weekend. Take a listen.

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Speaker 4: We did nothing wrong, nothing wrong whatsoever. We did absolutely

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Speaker 4: nothing wrong. Take a look at the Presidential Records Act.

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Speaker 4: We did it by the book, perfect except we have

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Speaker 4: thugs and creeps running this country and it's a real

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Speaker 4: problem for our country.

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Speaker 3: Now we're going to bring in Joshua Castenberg, University of

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Speaker 3: New Mexico Law School professor to discuss this. Joshua, thanks

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Speaker 3: so much for being here. I want to get your

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Speaker 3: take on what we just heard and how you would

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Speaker 3: rate these charges on a one to ten scale, here

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Speaker 3: one being nothing to see, here in ten being this

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Speaker 3: guy is toast. Where do you think we land and

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Speaker 3: where would you land on characterizing this indictment?

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Speaker 5: Well, thank you for having me on, And where I

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Speaker 5: land on characterizing the indictment is kind of parroting the

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Speaker 5: words of two former republic Attorney General, Alberto Gondalas and

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Speaker 5: William Barr and the way the indictment is framed. And

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Speaker 5: I caveat this by saying, we don't know all of

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Speaker 5: the evidence is underlying the indictment. We know some of it,

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Speaker 5: but not all of it. The indictment is pretty damning.

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Speaker 5: It's damning because it's not a speaking indictment that just

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Speaker 5: explains to the world what the government is accusing the

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Speaker 5: individuals of doing, in this case, former President Trump, it

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Speaker 5: has enough specificity to it and enough detail in it

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Speaker 5: that if the facts are proven, and that includes intentionally

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Speaker 5: shleshing attack plans against the foreign country with the former

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Speaker 5: president's future biographers, both that he's not supposed to have

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Speaker 5: that document and he has it, you know, it's as

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Speaker 5: good as a confession if the government can get it

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Speaker 5: into evidence.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned Attorney in General Bill Barr. I stole part

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Speaker 3: of my question from his wording. Here's what he had

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Speaker 3: to say about the indictment.

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Speaker 6: I do think we have to wait and say what

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Speaker 6: the defense says and what proves to be true. But

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Speaker 6: I do think that even half what Andy McCarthy said,

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Speaker 6: which is, if even half of it is true, then

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Speaker 6: he's toast. I mean, it's a pretty it's a very

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Speaker 6: detailed indictment, and it's very, very damning.

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Speaker 3: How big of a deal is it, Joshua, to hear

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Speaker 3: that kind of comment from an attorney general will.

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Speaker 5: Very I mean, in the first place, former Attorney General

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Speaker 5: Barr kind of characterized his office as not only a

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Speaker 5: servant of the people, but an advisor to the president,

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Speaker 5: a representative of the Oval office. And for a long

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Speaker 5: time that's been a debate. Is the Attorney General independent

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Speaker 5: of the president or is the Attorney General both dependent

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Speaker 5: and independent of the president? And Bar tilted towards the latter,

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Speaker 5: which you know, a number of scholars and a number

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Speaker 5: of former attorney general disagree with. So Barr is a

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Speaker 5: former ally of President Trump and not just you know,

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Speaker 5: the Attorney General of the United States. It's a significant

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Speaker 5: analysis that he gives. You asked me about rating these

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Speaker 5: on a scale of one to ten. I put him

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Speaker 5: pretty high in seriousness, you know, at seven to eight.

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Speaker 5: I mean he didn't sell information to a foreign source.

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Speaker 5: He didn't intentionally you know that we know of use

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Speaker 5: these for the purpose of blackmail or some other reason,

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Speaker 5: but just a brazen disregard for the rule of law

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Speaker 5: and national security as the rule of law applies in

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Speaker 5: this instance. It's pretty significant. I think both Attorney General

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Speaker 5: Barr and Attorney General Gonzales agree with that point.

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Speaker 3: So former President Trump is going to appear in Miami

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Speaker 3: court tomorrow for the arraignment. What should we expect to see?

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Speaker 3: Should we expect to see him in handcuffs or see

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Speaker 3: him at all, And should we expect to learn anything tomorrow.

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Speaker 5: No, So you know, it would be entirely inappropriate to

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Speaker 5: put the former president of the United States and handcuffs

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Speaker 5: or put him in for a mug shot. The world

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Speaker 5: knows what he looks like, and the purpose of a

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Speaker 5: mug shot is simply to show to the public an

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Speaker 5: unknown person, to make them known. So none of that

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Speaker 5: would be dignified or appropriate in this case. What we'll see,

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Speaker 5: and this is my prediction, is that what we'll hear

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Speaker 5: that there's a and I say here because he can't

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Speaker 5: have cameras in a federal courtroom, we'll hear that he

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Speaker 5: pled not guilty, and on his way in and on

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Speaker 5: his way out, you'll hear words, just like he said

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Speaker 5: in your recording a moment ago, that they did everything

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Speaker 5: by the book, everything was above board, the country's run

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Speaker 5: by thugs, et cetera, et cetera. And then you'll probably

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Speaker 5: hear gratuitous comments about you know, what about Hillary Clinton,

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Speaker 5: what about you know, Hunter Biden and the like. And

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Speaker 5: you know, the important thing is, I think all of

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Speaker 5: those cases are are distinguishable from this one. But the

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Speaker 5: Justice Department and the Biden administration and the media, to

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Speaker 5: be fair, has a duty to at least explain why

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Speaker 5: each and every case is different and this one's particularly severe.

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Speaker 1: What would you.

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Speaker 3: Say is the single biggest action that you learned about

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Speaker 3: from the indictment that makes you think of it as

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Speaker 3: an eight out of ten on that severity scale.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, ordering people to move boxes around, hiding

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Speaker 5: things from your own attorneys. I mean it shows it.

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Speaker 5: You know, we teach criminal law and criminal procedure to

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Speaker 5: the first and second year law students. It kind of

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Speaker 5: shows a guilty state of mind. And one of the

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Speaker 5: things that you look for is in a case like

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Speaker 5: this is consciousness of guilt, evidence that someone knows they've

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Speaker 5: committed wrongdoing. And it doesn't matter whether it's a simple

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Speaker 5: shop lifting case or a premeditated murder case. Once you

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Speaker 5: have that, it makes you if you're a prosecutor, it

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Speaker 5: makes your ability to prove the case all the much more.

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Speaker 5: But I think, you know, like I mentioned in the

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Speaker 5: last show, there's a retired lieutenant colonel that was sentenced

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Speaker 5: to three years in US district court for doing similar

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Speaker 5: but less egregious mishandling of classified data than this former

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Speaker 5: commander in chief, and I think that should show the

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Speaker 5: significance of these charges.

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Speaker 3: Well, in thinking about the charges in our final couple

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Speaker 3: of minutes together here, I'm really curious about the timeline

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Speaker 3: because I wonder if he is able to drag this out.

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Speaker 3: Could he a lot of ifs here, but could he

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Speaker 3: theoretically be the president of the United States again when

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Speaker 3: we get all of this kind of wrapped up. So

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Speaker 3: from a legal perspective, how realistic is his ability to

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Speaker 3: drag this out until after the election?

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, the powerful and the wealthy have the

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Speaker 5: ability to drag out cases in a manner that most

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Speaker 5: people don't. And as an example, I've been studying a

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Speaker 5: a hit and run case that involved the death of

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Speaker 5: two children in California at the state level, where a

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Speaker 5: very wealthy individual has managed to drag it out now

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Speaker 5: for three years by hiring and firing lawyers and expert witnesses.

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Speaker 5: And you know, the Constitution is focused on the rights

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Speaker 5: of the accused person, and I will never denigrate that.

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Speaker 5: One of those is the right to counsel, and the

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Speaker 5: other is the right to the government's evidence and defense

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Speaker 5: counsel and defendants can use those rights to drag a

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Speaker 5: trial out, and I'm sure the former president of the

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Speaker 5: United States will be able to do that in a

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Speaker 5: way that we seldom see. So, yeah, he could be

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Speaker 5: sitting as president and pardon himself by the time this

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Speaker 5: would even be contemplated as a trial, on the other hand,

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Speaker 5: and the Constitution doesn't have any infirmity against him running

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Speaker 5: for president. On the other hand, a judge may have

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Speaker 5: a low tolerance for that sort of thing and maybe

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Speaker 5: push the case forward.

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Speaker 3: But at the moment the judge is a Trump appointee.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that that kind of waives the chances

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Speaker 3: of the judge pushing this forward?

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Speaker 5: Normally, I would make the argument that it doesn't matter

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Speaker 5: who a judge has been appointed by in terms of

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Speaker 5: you know, which president appointed them. In this particular case,

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Speaker 5: I have hope that the prior experience that Judge Cannon

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Speaker 5: has had in front of the Eleventh Circuit in particular,

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Speaker 5: will chasten her. But unlike a lot of commentators, particularly

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Speaker 5: pro Democratic commentators, I believe that Judge Cannon rolled in

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Speaker 5: a manner that she thought the law required her to roll.

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Speaker 5: I don't think she was rolling to be in favor

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Speaker 5: of Trump. It's just her view of the law, which

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Speaker 5: was diametrically opposed to what the law actually was, that

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Speaker 5: concerned me, and I hope this leads her to study

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Speaker 5: the law as it applies to this case more thoroughly

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Speaker 5: than she did the last time around.

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Speaker 3: Right, Professor Katzenberg, really appreciate you joining us for some

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Speaker 3: excellent insights there. Hopefully we can get you back on

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Speaker 3: to discuss this case moving forward, and especially as we

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Speaker 3: get to this arraignment tomorrow. Again. That was Joshua Castenberg.

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Speaker 3: He's a professor at the University of New Mexico's law school,

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Speaker 3: talking with us about former President Trump's indictment. The former

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Speaker 3: president is set to appear in a Miami court on Tuesday.

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Speaker 3: This is after, of course, him becoming the first president

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Speaker 3: in history charged with committing federal crimes. So we're going

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Speaker 3: to continue to cover this throughout the week because Trump's

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Speaker 3: battle outside of the courtroom, of course, is on the

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Speaker 3: campaign trail. So we're going to talk next in our

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Speaker 3: show about how voters are reacting to this indictment news

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Speaker 3: and what it means for the former president's chances moving forward.

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Speaker 3: I'm Madison Mills in for June Brasso. This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Ken Catch us live. Your favorite Bloomberg Radio shows, including

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Surveillance, Wall Street Week and Bloomberg Sound On, are

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Speaker 1: also available as podcasts. Listen today on Apple, Spotify, and

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Speaker 1: anywhere else you get your podcasts. You're listening to Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg Law. I'm Mattison Mills and I'm in

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Speaker 3: for June Grasso this week, wells. Former President Trump is

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Speaker 3: set to appear in Miami court tomorrow, his former Republican

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Speaker 3: colleagues in Washington sort of walking a political tightrope. Here's

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Speaker 3: what House Speaker Kevin McCarthy said about the allegations against

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Speaker 3: the former president earlier today.

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Speaker 7: Is that a good look for the former president to

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Speaker 7: have boxes in a bathroom?

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Is it a good picture to have boxes in a

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Speaker 4: garage that opens up all the time?

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Speaker 1: A bathroom door locks.

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Speaker 3: So extra credit there for the president from McCarthy because

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Speaker 3: of the use of a locked door. There so here

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Speaker 3: to discuss the reaction in Washington, and of course the

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Speaker 3: campaign trail implications. Is Wendy Benjaminson. Wendy is Bloomberg News

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Speaker 3: Deputy managing editor down in DC. Wendy, always a joy

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Speaker 3: to speak with you. I want to start on those

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Speaker 3: McCarthy comments. What do you make of his strategy here

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Speaker 3: and how does it align with his Republican colleagues.

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Speaker 8: Well, it's been perfect line with many many of his

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Speaker 8: Republican colleagues. It seems to be the unified talking point is.

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Speaker 4: He did too?

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Speaker 8: Is basically so did he he started? It is basically

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Speaker 8: the general talking point. The idea is that Biden also

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Speaker 8: had classified documents in his home and office, and why

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Speaker 8: isn't he being indicted? This, in their rhetoric, proves to

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Speaker 8: them that the Justice Department is politically biased and after Trump,

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Speaker 8: So that's their talking point. One could say in reaction

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Speaker 8: to that that the difference is that when Biden discovered

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Speaker 8: he well, when law enforcement and Biden and the Archives

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Speaker 8: discovered that he had these documents in his possession, he said, whoops,

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Speaker 8: my bad, and asked for them to be collected and

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Speaker 8: taken to the National Archives. In Trump's case, of course,

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Speaker 8: there's a well documented year long struggle, which we now

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Speaker 8: know from the indictment on sealed on Friday, included Trump

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Speaker 8: trying to get his lawyers to lie to the archives

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Speaker 8: and take out certain documents. So it's not quite apples

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Speaker 8: to oranges, but they're trying to make it that.

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Speaker 3: Well in terms of how they're trying to make it that.

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Speaker 3: Can the Trump team turn Biden's handling of classified documents

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Speaker 3: into the know Hillary Clinton emails of twenty sixteen when

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Speaker 3: it comes to their campaigning moving.

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Speaker 8: Forward, I certainly think they can with Republican primary voters.

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Speaker 8: And that's the first hurdle that Trump has to cross

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Speaker 8: is getting you know, the nomination to be president the

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Speaker 8: presidential candidate of twenty twenty four And I think that,

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Speaker 8: you know, from what we've seen in the CBS you

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Speaker 8: go pull that came out this weekend that shows that

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Speaker 8: the vast majority of Republican primary voters have bought into

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Speaker 8: those talking points that they believe this was a politically motivated,

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Speaker 8: hyped up nothing burger of an indictment where eighty percent

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Speaker 8: of general election voters believe there was a national security risk.

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Speaker 8: So there's you know, there's a tremendous amount of different

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Speaker 8: sets of beliefs on this, but in the Republican primary,

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Speaker 8: the only thing that so far seems like it might

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Speaker 8: work to steer those voters away from Trump. Is what

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Speaker 8: DeSantis and some of the others for to Governor Ron

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Speaker 8: DeSantis and others are trying to do, which is to say, look,

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Speaker 8: Trump's just there's always drama, There's always an indictment, there's

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Speaker 8: always hush money. Vote for me. I'll give you the

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Speaker 8: same thing. You'll get exactly what you get from Trump,

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Speaker 8: without the Justice Department on your tail, without without the

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Speaker 8: crime and the drama. Yeah, I guess so.

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Speaker 3: No, that's really interesting because I did when I was

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Speaker 3: in Florida for the midterms, a lot of the voters

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Speaker 3: I spoke with said exactly that that they were really

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Speaker 3: excited to vote for Disantas's governor and hopefully for presidents

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Speaker 3: someday because he felt like the non drama Trump. But

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Speaker 3: when we look more broadly nationally, when it comes to

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Speaker 3: the identity of the traditional Trump voter, does that work.

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Speaker 3: Do they want a non drama Trump or is that

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Speaker 3: kind of a little bit part of the appeal there?

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Speaker 8: Well, yes, it is part of the appeal, and I

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Speaker 8: think there will be that twenty five to thirty percent

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Speaker 8: of Republican primary voters who would vote for Trump. No,

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Speaker 8: matter what. And in fact, that was about the percentage

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Speaker 8: I can't remember off hand, but that was about the

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Speaker 8: percentage of the CBS you go, who said this doesn't

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Speaker 8: change their opinion of Trump at all, This doesn't change

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Speaker 8: their plans at all. You know, even if he were

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Speaker 8: in federal prison, they would still not.

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Speaker 5: For him for president.

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Speaker 8: That's only thirty percent of the Republican primary electorate. So

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Speaker 8: seventy percent of the Republican primary electorate might look at

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Speaker 8: a guy like DeSantis, or like Tim Scott, or like

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Speaker 8: Nikki Haley and say, well, you know, I get the

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Speaker 8: same thing without without all the drama, without being embarrassed

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Speaker 8: to talk about it in certain circles, you know, so

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Speaker 8: sure I'll vote for I'll vote for that. And then

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Speaker 8: there are other Republican primary candidates like Christy, like Asa

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Speaker 8: Hutchinson and others who are saying Trump's wrong, this is awful,

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Speaker 8: It's time.

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Speaker 5: To move on.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, this is my question. Then if he gets

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Speaker 3: the primary, fine, but then how does this play against

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Speaker 3: Biden and in general? Do we have enough pulling to

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Speaker 3: know a picture of that yet?

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Speaker 8: Not? Really, No, it's pretty hard to tell. I mean,

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Speaker 8: Trump before las week, he was just besting Biden. They

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Speaker 8: were pretty even in most of the polling, but this

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Speaker 8: is so far out it's impossible to tell. I mean,

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Speaker 8: I can just sort of guess from just having done

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Speaker 8: this for a while that independence suburbanides, those sort of

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Speaker 8: voters will probably not want to vote for Trump with

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Speaker 8: these legal clouds hanging over his head. And if the

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Speaker 8: choice is Trump, Biden, or no one, then they would

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Speaker 8: probably either stay home or vote for Biden, both of

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Speaker 8: which would help Biden in a general election, because all

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Speaker 8: Democrats will vote for Biden. Now, if there's a third

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Speaker 8: party candidate, that can usually skew it toward the underdog,

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Speaker 8: meaning you know, he's taking votes from Biden, and that

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Speaker 8: would help Trump. It's pretty hard for me to imagine

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Speaker 8: that Trump would be president again in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 8: with this having happened. But frankly, I didn't think he'd

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Speaker 8: win in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: So you never thought that we'd be talking about federal

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Speaker 3: criminal charges against a former president?

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Speaker 8: No?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, I mean, how how unprecedented does this

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Speaker 3: feel to you? As someone who's spent you know, so

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Speaker 3: much time covering the ins and outs of Washington.

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Speaker 8: It is unprecedented. This has simply never happened before, and

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Speaker 8: we're going to be going into all sorts of weird,

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Speaker 8: uncharted legal territory. This is like sailing Columbus's ship off

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Speaker 8: the corner of you know, off the cliff of the

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Speaker 8: earth here because.

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Speaker 5: We don't know.

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Speaker 8: I mean, what if he's convicted and goes to prison,

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Speaker 8: which isn't going to happen, but it's possible before the

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Speaker 8: election and he wins. I mean, these are things that

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Speaker 8: we actually have to start thinking about. He could be

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Speaker 8: a convicted felon and be president of the United States,

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Speaker 8: and then what happens. And I'm not a lawyer, but

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Speaker 8: I know that a lot of lawyers are scratching their

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Speaker 8: heads and wondering what does happen?

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Speaker 3: And yeah, and can he pardon himself in the White House.

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Speaker 3: All of these these what ifs are big questions.

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Speaker 8: Right exactly. And none of these charges I don't think

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Speaker 8: disqualify him from being president. There is an op they

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Speaker 8: will try to disqualify him from running for president, but again,

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Speaker 8: the Constitution says natural born citizen at least thirty five

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Speaker 8: years old. That's it.

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Speaker 3: Well, Wendy, in my final minute with you, we just

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Speaker 3: got about thirty seconds left. I want to talk about Biden.

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Speaker 3: What can the White House and what can his campaign

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Speaker 3: team do to distance Biden from the kind of this

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Speaker 3: is a political you know, anti Trump move from the

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Speaker 3: Justice a permit.

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Speaker 8: I think the Biden campaign and the White House have

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Speaker 8: been pretty smart about this so far, which is to say,

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Speaker 8: I haven't talked to the Justice Department. I'm not part

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Speaker 8: of this. I don't know anything about it. And that's

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Speaker 8: what that's really the best thing they can do right

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Speaker 8: now is just it just acts like the truth, which

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Speaker 8: is they are not involved.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, Wendy, thank you so much. As always

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Speaker 3: amazing to get take here. That was Wendy Benjaminson down

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Speaker 3: in DC for us. You're listening to Bloomberg Law coming

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Speaker 3: up on the show. We've got more news for you,

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Speaker 3: so stick here with us. This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 3: This is Bloomberg Law. I'm Madison Mills in for June

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Speaker 3: Grasso this week. Well, JP Morgan has agreed to pay

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Speaker 3: two hundred and ninety million dollars to settle a lawsuit

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Speaker 3: alleging it knowingly benefited from former client Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking.

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Speaker 3: That's according to a person familiar with the matter in

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Speaker 3: Bloomberg News reporting. So joining us now to discuss this

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Speaker 3: is Hannah love It, Bloomberg News finance reporter. Hannah, thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for being with us on the line.

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Speaker 3: Just give me the context here for anyone who hasn't

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Speaker 3: been following. What are the charges here and what are

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Speaker 3: the details of the lawsuit?

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Speaker 7: Hey, thank you so much for having me. So unnamed

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Speaker 7: victim of Jeffrey Epstein, sued JP Morgan, the biggest US bank,

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Speaker 7: late last year, alleging, as you said, that it knowingly

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Speaker 7: benefited from Epstein's sex trafficking. So Epstein was a client

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Speaker 7: of JP Morgan from the late nineties until twenty thirteen. Now,

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Speaker 7: remember Jeffrey Epstein was you know, indicted in Florida in

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Speaker 7: two thousand and six, and you know then again arrested

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Speaker 7: in twenty nineteen and went to jail and that's where

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Speaker 7: he died. So this was coming up, you know, really

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Speaker 7: a couple of years after that. It kind of reignited

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Speaker 7: this really the storm across Wall Street as far as

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Speaker 7: like ties to Epstein, and.

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Speaker 3: Can you help me contextualize the number here, two hundred

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Speaker 3: and ninety million. Is that a drop in the bucket

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Speaker 3: for JP Morgan? How does that square for them?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: I mean they've they've been fined, you know. I think

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Speaker 7: they paid something like nine hundred million to settle hooping

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Speaker 7: charges a couple of years ago. There might have been

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Speaker 7: some more in that, but yet they paid two hundred

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Speaker 7: and fifty million a little more than a year ago

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Speaker 7: to settle what's that probe about, you know, communicating with

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Speaker 7: clients on nauthorized channels. So that would be the one

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Speaker 7: the closest kind of comparison in recent memory as far

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Speaker 7: as what it means to the JP Morgan.

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Speaker 3: And so what does the the payout tell us in

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Speaker 3: terms of JP Morgan's accountability here? And what are what's

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Speaker 3: the bank saying about that accountability?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so what we reported, citing sources is that the

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Speaker 7: bank is not making admissions of liability as part of

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Speaker 7: the settlement. So that's you know, what we're expecting to

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Speaker 7: be the line from from them. And they've been fighting

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Speaker 7: this lawsuit in another lawsuit from the with Surgin Islands

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Speaker 7: over their types to Epstein, you know, pretty vigorously. So yeah,

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Speaker 7: I would say that's you know, Jamie Diamond himself, the

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Speaker 7: CEO of JP Morgan. You know, he's been deposed as

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Speaker 7: part of this. He's said repeatedly that he never met

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Speaker 7: Jeffrey Epstein or knew who he was, things like that.

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Speaker 7: But he's said that, you know, their hard squat victims

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Speaker 7: and things like that. So this kind of I mean,

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Speaker 7: the fact that they settled with the victims is not

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Speaker 7: a huge surprise in that sense.

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Speaker 3: And you mentioned some other lawsuits, including the one by

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Speaker 3: the US Virgin Islands where he had a private retreat

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Speaker 3: Epstein and brought several of his victims previously. Can you

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Speaker 3: tell me anything that we might know about that lawsuit

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Speaker 3: and whether or not, you know, the outcome of today

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Speaker 3: has any sort of impact on that lawsuit or what

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Speaker 3: bank executives are thinking about that one as well.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so that one's ongoing. It was filed around the

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Speaker 7: same time as the victim one was filed, and you know,

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Speaker 7: as of today, as of right now, that one is

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Speaker 7: still going on. And then JAPON Morgan also turned around

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Speaker 7: in March and to one of their former executives, Jeff Stailey,

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Speaker 7: you know, seeking to blame him for their ties for

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Speaker 7: the firm ties to Epstein saying he misled them and

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Speaker 7: things like that, So that both of those are so ongoing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that suit against

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Speaker 3: Jess Staley as well. Have you learned anything else from

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Speaker 3: your sources about what that might look like for the

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Speaker 3: bank and from Staley's perspective as well.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean there's nothing new about that today. There

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Speaker 7: that was, you know, not part of the japon Morgan

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Speaker 7: settlement with the victims other than that, what you know,

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Speaker 7: part of what Japen Morgan is speaking in their suit

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Speaker 7: against Staley is for him to be liable for you know,

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Speaker 7: any any damages or anything like that that they pay

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Speaker 7: out to these plaintiffs. So that will be something to watch.

439
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 7: But there were no updates today. However, Staley was deposed

440
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 7: over the weekend, and so we've written a bit of Yeah,

441
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 7: that it happened.

442
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: Basically, and that's kind of unprecedented, right, That's a pretty

443
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 3: big deal to kind of sue Staley through a third

444
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: party complaint.

445
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

446
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 7: I would describe it as it was a dramatic term

447
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 7: in this saga when it happened.

448
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is kind of a question across Wall

449
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: Street because there are so many associations with Epstein from

450
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: other institutions as well. Do you anticipate any other banks

451
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 3: getting swept up in this beyond JP Morgan?

452
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, So Deutsche Bank actually settled with so when Epstein

453
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 7: left JP Morgan, he went to Deutsche Bank, that's what

454
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 7: he was a client, and they settled with victims for

455
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 7: seventy five million. I believe something in that ballpark fairly recently.

456
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 3: So beyond Deutsche Bank, though, we think that is that

457
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 3: the kind of final for now, the final shoot a

458
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 3: drop when it comes to the names.

459
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, So the two banks that have really been

460
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 7: in the spotlight over this are Jake and Morgan Indutch Bank.

461
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I just continue to think about the

462
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 3: bank kind of making no admission of liability in connection

463
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 3: with the settlement, which we learned from your reporting. You know,

464
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: do we anticipate any pushback from that lack of admission

465
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: of liability from clients investors in the bank or is

466
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 3: this just kind of, you know, a payout that is

467
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: going to silence the conversation and distance JP Morgan from

468
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: the Epstein ongoing saga as a whole.

469
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I've been like

470
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 7: even the you know, David Boyce is one of the

471
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 7: attorneys for Jane Doe, said today in his statement that

472
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 7: you know, it's a great day for Jeffrey Epstein's survivors,

473
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 7: a great day for justice. So that was the reaction

474
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 7: we saw from him. And then, Yeah, I haven't heard

475
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,239
Speaker 7: anything to the country as far as like, you know,

476
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 7: from the clients, so things like that, any spill over.

477
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 7: I think as far as you know, the wider JP

478
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 7: Morgan apparatus was concerned, it was a bit. I mean,

479
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 7: it's been six months of just you know, the drip

480
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 7: drip of more emails released and things like that, so

481
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 7: I think it was and these things are all, you know,

482
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 7: a decade old at this point, so it was probably

483
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 7: you know, people are looking forward to putting this behind them.

484
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 7: Inside Jacob Morgan.

485
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: Well, and speaking of kind of your other reporting when

486
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 3: it comes to JP Morgan dealing with this, help our

487
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 3: audience remind our audience about the executive within JP Morgan

488
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: who has had some emails with Jeffrey Epstein unveiled in

489
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: recent weeks.

490
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I had a story out today about Mary Erdos,

491
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 7: who is the longtime chief of the asset and wealth

492
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 7: management unit at Jacob Morgan. She actually succeeded Jeff Bailey

493
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 7: a top of the private bank when he got promoted

494
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 7: to the head of that unit in two thousand and five,

495
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 7: and then when he got moved over to the investment

496
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 7: in two thousand and nine, she sucsued him a topset

497
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 7: and wealth management where she still is today. And so

498
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 7: she's the one, you know, as far as still still

499
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 7: remaining JP Morgan executives know, people who haven't left the

500
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 7: firm and things like that, who has You know, she's

501
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 7: had emails coming out of this thing this whole time.

502
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 7: You know she was she ran the private bank and

503
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 7: then all of FT and wealth management, so that's you know,

504
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 7: she has been contending with that.

505
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: And in our final couple of minutes together, can you

506
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: walk me through a little bit more of what was

507
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: in those emails and what it tells us about not

508
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 3: just Mary's connection with Ebstein, but the bank's broader connection

509
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: with him.

510
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean there are a ton I think the

511
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 7: number for the emails exchanged between Staley and Epstein during

512
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 7: Staley's time at JP Morgan itself was more than a thousand,

513
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 7: So we're looking at you know, a lot of a

514
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 7: lot of emails and a lot of discovery materials that

515
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 7: were then you know, fifted through and put into these

516
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 7: lawsuits and things like that. I mean, it's everything from

517
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 7: you know, scheduling to trying to At one point, you know,

518
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 7: Epstein was portraying himself as a close advisor to Bill

519
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 7: Gates and trying to set up a meeting with people

520
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 7: at JP Morgan for a fund, his idea for a fund,

521
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 7: and things like that. So it's really kind of all

522
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 7: over the board about over things like that.

523
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just reading your story. One of the quotes

524
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 3: from Epstein that he wrote to Mary Rosa and her predecessor,

525
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: former mentor Just Daly in an email saying, I'm well

526
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: aware of my current unfortunate rainbow. I am also aware

527
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 3: that JPM has a colorful, colorful array of clients. So

528
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: that kind of says it all. Hannah Levitt, thank you

529
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: so much for joining us. Hannah Lovet is a Bloomberg

530
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: News finance reporter. You are listening to Bloomberg Lostick with

531
00:29:52,720 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: us here. We've got more coming up right now.

532
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brasso from Bloomberg.

533
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 3: Radio This is Bloomberg Law. I'm Madison Mills in for

534
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 3: June Grasso. This week big acquisition news today, Nasdaq has

535
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: agreed to buy financial software maker a Denza from its

536
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 3: private equity owner and the US exchange operator's biggest ever deal.

537
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: We're talking ten and a half billion dollars. So Kat

538
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: Doherty is here with me to discuss. She's a Bloomberg

539
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: News finance reporter. Kat, great to speak with you. Talk

540
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 3: to me about what we need to know about this deal.

541
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 3: What are your sources saying today.

542
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 9: Well, everyone is talking about the size. Yes, it is

543
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 9: Nasdaq's would be biggest deal should it pass regulatory approval,

544
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 9: which they are expecting will come within six to nine months.

545
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 9: But the cost of this is not nothing. They're paying

546
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 9: for it with a combination of cash, inequity. Toma Bravo,

547
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 9: the owner of Adenza, is going to be taking a

548
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 9: nearly fifteen percent stake in Nasdaq. That's going to be

549
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 9: among one of the biggest stakes that of any Nasdaq

550
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 9: investor group. So that's something to look out for. And

551
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 9: I think something I heard a lot of people ask

552
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 9: about today. And also they get a board seat, so

553
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 9: there's a lot of collaboration cross collaboration between Toma Bravo

554
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 9: and Nasdaq, which is not unusual to see some pretty

555
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 9: big players in the finance markets come forward and collaborate

556
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 9: in this way. But we haven't seen anything that kind

557
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 9: of matches it to this scale. But the valuation is

558
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 9: something that Nasdak's going to have to think about in

559
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 9: terms of the debt that they're going to have to

560
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 9: take on. They're issuing some debt to pay for this acquisition.

561
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 9: That's going to increase their leverage. Now, they've taken on

562
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 9: debt and increase leverage before in previous acquisitions, and they've

563
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 9: proved that they can take down that leverage over time

564
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 9: and through cost synergies and using cash that they generate

565
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 9: from these deals to pay down debt. But that's still

566
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 9: a question. It's not necessarily a guarantee. So those are

567
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 9: some of the things that people are thinking about with

568
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 9: this deal.

569
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 3: And is the market sense of this deal that it's

570
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: a little overpriced. Is that why we're seeing a dip

571
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: in the Nasdaq stock today?

572
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 9: Well, it is more, i believe than what Toma Bravo

573
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 9: paid for. There were two companies that they bought. They

574
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 9: were very well known the first Calypso technology the second

575
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 9: axiom sl They combined those two to create a Deenza recently,

576
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 9: and I believe that the cost that Nasdac is paying

577
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 9: for it is more.

578
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 5: That.

579
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 9: Being said, the rationale that Nasdak has given investors as

580
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 9: to the price is that they say this is a

581
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 9: going to be a huge cash generator for them. They

582
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 9: don't see a problem with taking on the new debt

583
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 9: and giving this equity stake, but it is something that

584
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 9: they're going to have to manage and they're going to

585
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 9: have to monitor the potentially higher expenses when you take

586
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 9: on a new company like this, and it's just going

587
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 9: to be another it's gonna be another really pain point

588
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 9: for them that they're gonna have to get through so

589
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 9: that on the other side, they can show investors, hey,

590
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 9: here's something that they're saying, there is a boon for

591
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 9: our business. They think of it as a great deal.

592
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 9: It's just whether or not investors view it in the

593
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 9: same way.

594
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: Well, and they're saying that it's potentially a tailwind for

595
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: them because of banking pressures.

596
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 9: So it was interesting today on call with investors. There

597
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 9: was a question that was asked, I wish I had

598
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 9: thought of this question, which was a lot of Adenzi's

599
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 9: clients are banks and brokers, and the banking sector has

600
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 9: been under a lot of pressure recently. So they were

601
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 9: asking Nasdak is that an issue for this deal? Is

602
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 9: it something that complicates the deal in any way? And

603
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 9: their answer to that was no, In fact, this is

604
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 9: something that we see as an opportunity. The reason for

605
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 9: that being Denza's offerings specifically deal with regulatory and risk management,

606
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 9: So if banks are facing further or more regulation and

607
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 9: risks to their business, they're going to engage and use

608
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 9: the software potentially in a new or increased way. So

609
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 9: Nasdaq is saying, great, this is something that we're going

610
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 9: to actually be able to help clients with rather than

611
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 9: have it be hurting their business.

612
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: All right, thank you so much for joining us. We

613
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 3: really appreciate it. This is Bloomberg Law. I'm Madison Mills

614
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: in for June Grasso. Throughout the week, come back to

615
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: listen to us and we'll make you smarter on all

616
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 3: the legal news that you need to know. This is

617
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 3: Bloomberg